Temple Still Standing?

I still disagree. We in the West often misunderstand the importance of centuries old landmarks as being central to a differing religion.

I earlier compared it (incorrectly by name) to the Church of the Holy Seplecre in Jerusalem. But that Church has no where neear the meaning of various key sites in Mecca, Jerusalem, or this one to members of Islam.

Other comparisons can be madee to ceartain locations in Buddhist and Hindu religions, but not to the same extent as in Inslam.

I continue to think it can be taken (but am not a military commander on the ground) without turning it into dust with bombs. That would be an unforgiveable sin, regardless of intent, by many Muslims.

Also, La Shawn, you and I are much, much better educated and informed as to what’s going on in the world. Much of the antagonism of the Arab countries is from the poor and uneducated people who obtain their “news” by word of mouth. They don’t even see the inflamatory propoganda of certain Arab TV stations. They don’t own TVs. They have no education.

Note that the terrorists in Palestine are increasingly choosing younger and younger candidates as their suicide bombers. They make the best of both worlds: they’re uneducated, young, and have grown up in a world of hatred.

Destroying that building is something we would never be able to explain to millions of people. It’s a thorn in our side, but it’s a special situation, a very special one, that extends well beyond normal military strategy.

We’re getting closer and closer. The final assault will be made by Iraqis. We’re close enough for support. We’re already being criticized for doing all the fighting while the Iraqis are actually playing a significant role.

It will fall. The Iraqis will make the final assault.

Patience is a virtue. LOL

God knows we’re been patient for a long time. Those Iraqi soldiers on the ground at present aren’t from the new trainees. They’re the experienced ex-army personel from the former Army. We know the Iraqi leadership supports getting rid of Sadr, possibly more than we.

FOX news, if no one else, continues to hammer this point. The Iraqis will make the final assault. Any resultant damage will be lessened, if not minimal, and will not fall on our soldiers. This can also be documented by a diverse and overwhelming number of Mil Blogs from our personnel and their families at home. They say the Iraqis fighting, with out support (and with our direct involvement to date), have done an excellent job. They’ve also take heavier casualties than Americans, fighting largely as ground troops and virtually none of the mechanized armor we’ve used (although we’ve often inserted them in place).

Cheers.

If the US does not take into account of how highly regarded that shrine is to shiite majority, we will receive more deaths. Fundamentalist like Al Sadr will receive more recruits which will in turn attack more US Soldiers, if you cared about the safety and the lives of the US military you would also take into account the cultural rules the US actions must adhere to.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I didnt want the fact i was raised a Muslim to mean anything, just to support my claim. I misread your statement. I thought you were suggesting the Qu’ran advocates idol worship….infact the Qu’ran is extremely vocal on this matter, just as Christianity is. Its actually not allowed under Shariah law to create images of prophets, or indeed God…much less worship buildings.

While destroying the Mosque would be the quick and easy way out, this doesnt mean it would result in less American deaths in the long run. In my opinion, actions like this will only drive more moderate Iraqi’s into the open arms of thugs like Al Sadr. I think its crucially important to keep Iraqi public opinion on the side of their liberators, and not goad it towards Islamic extremists.

In regards to Bush, im not saying he shouldnt talk about Iraq. However, if he commmits actions like this and gets Iraqi opinion against his idea of freedom….then he has absolutely no right to suggest he is liberating the people….which he does. A lot.

On Kerry…..what he said about the Vietnam war over 30 years ago is irrelevant. Its a fact that war crimes did happen during that war.

Emotionally, I wanted to turn the entire ME into a green glass ashtray right from the start, but that really doesn’t solve the problem. Blowing up the Shrine of Ali will not solve the problem in the short or long term.

First, it’s doubtful Sadr is even at the Shrine; it’s basic charismatic leader behavior to abandon the followers at the moment of danger. Second, strategically and tactically it’s just a building; the bad guys will just go somewhere else. Third, despite the anti-idolatry teachings of the Qu’ran, Imam Ali is held in such high esteem as to be nearly, if not in fact, worship worthy. To this, Christians are not immune, either; witness the many saints, bleeding/crying Crucifixes, and Madonna images on mildewed walls. Protestants may be a bit less susceptible, but there is still Waco and Jim Jones.

To grasp the concept that religious belief is FAITH in an un-provable goodness is difficult even for the most adept, never mind the masses of the great unwashed. Attaching faith to a place, a thing, or a person is natural behavior for any person of any religion because it’s easier than thinking. However, according to the Christian Science Monitor this past weekend, the men in the shrine are not uneducated: “We are doctors and engineers and teachers…” Education in Saddam’s Iraq was very important and often the only thing to do. Many at the shrine are soldiers of the new army which is experiencing a desertion rate of about 80% (U.S. Army officer on NPR 8-23/04.)

Something must be done and maybe, just maybe, that something might be nothing. I know that is contrary to the American way of war, but it might be the right thing to do.

Did anyone show any mercy at the towers, the embassy,the cole or for anything for that matter, i think they are already pissed.

HiRez,
Who would hide in the Statue of Liberty and snipe at someone, daring them to fire back, and warning them about the repercussions of shooting at (or bombing) such a revered structure? The same kinds of cowards that are doing this in Iraq. These are the same wingnuts that have used hospitals and the patients in them as shields…
Personally, I agree with the notion that we should clear the area, create a no mans land, hunt down any tunnels and starve them out. Anyone trying to get in, gets shot. Anyone trying to get out, does so with empty hand, bare headed and in skivvies, or gets shot. And when it’s over, we rebuild the neighbohood better than it was before everything began.

I’ve long advocated evacuating and levelling a mosque for each terror attack. Until Islam pays more than it gains, it will contunue to be violent.

Honestly, until the concept of dhimmi is expunged from their theology, Islam isn’t safe for coexistence with the rest of the planet. Look up the meaning of dhimmi and hudna and you’ll understand what is planned for you AND that there is no such concept as armstice in Islam.

Victor Davis Hanson, among the worlds two greatest living English-language milititary historians (John Keegan is the other) suggests that it long overdue that we OPENLY announce the adoption of the successful cold war strategy of Mutually Assured Distruction, that our President say that if any attack within an order of magnitude the level of 9/11 happens, it will cost Islam plenty.

The US went to Civil War and redefined itself to eradicate slavery. Islam isn’t safe until mainstream muslims are ready to kill their cousins to prevent their descecrating (if that’s possible) their faith through their violence. The evidence suggests that more than 10% of Islam is quite supportive Osama bin Laden and his Mohammed Attas. There is scant evidence that there is even 10% of Islam that could be called anti-Osama-ist. The middle 80% needs to be treated as quite sympathetic to Osama’s aims but too timid to act out in the present.

Why do you feel the need to attack the Islamic religion? This is not about Islam, this is about a group of terrorist fundamentalists who do not represent the religion. Just like say the KKK, or the Nazis.

Do you care to explain your references to Dhimmi and Hudna? Dhimmi is simply the system used for people of a non Islamic faith, who are conquered by Jihad. It is an ancient rule with little relevance. Hudna simply means a temporary truce, used for rebuilding strength.

‘Islam isn’t safe until mainstream muslims are ready to kill their cousins to prevent their descecrating (if that’s possible) their faith through their violence.’

Your point isnt valid, as Muslims are doing EXACTLY this. ”Mainstream” Iraqi muslims are being killed by terrorists daily. Note the attacks on Iraqi’s trying to join up for police forces, or the fledgling Iraqi army.

‘The evidence suggests that more than 10% of Islam is quite supportive Osama bin Laden and his Mohammed Attas.’

This makes me want to vomit. This is a completely false figure, i have no idea where you got it from. Maybe you made it up. I dont know.

”The middle 80% needs to be treated as quite sympathetic to Osama’s aims but too timid to act out in the present.”

Are you saying that every Muslim should be treated as an enemy? Not only is this contradicting the whole reason behind going to war with Iraq, its extremely bigoted. The sane Muslim community condemns the actions of minority terrorists. The acts of Sadr are a direct flaunting of Shariah law.

”I think the thing that most people find most unsettling is the low number of ‘moderate Muslim’ voices who are speaking out.”

I disagree. After 9/11, condemnation from the Islamic community was huge. Of course, you didnt read about that or see it on drudge report or whatever. Just because you havnt seen something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I assure you, condemnation amoungst the Muslim community is rife.

Blowing up what other people consider sacred is not the best way to win hearts and minds. Most Iraqis are NOT terrorists, just as most Americans choose not to affiliate with hate groups. If we do not respect their religion, how can we expect them to understand ours?

On the topic of Najaf, there is an excellent Op-Ed piece by U.S. Marine Glen G. Butler in Monday’s NY Times.

Close the borders and start kicking in doors to find the Muslim scourge hiding in our midst, laughing at our stupidity.

SCSI,
It’s the ‘them’ that I am trying to address. I don’t disagree with your statement that it’s cowardly to hide behind something sacred, but should we not try to respect that which is held sacred by many, and condemn those who are cowardly who are hiding behind it? I don’t personally hold all Muslims responsible for the few terrorists using the shrine inappropriately. And because of that, I don’t see that the two alternatives you pose are the ONLY two available.

SCSI,

I admit I wasn’t addressing your points directly. The reason why we are not bombing their religious sites with abandon is that it would probably worsen the tenuous relationship we have with the rest of muslim world- however valuable that may actually be. The fighting that is occurring at this shrine is not isolated, certainly there is unrest in other parts of Iraq. Because of this, the 2 options you propose really won’t help to alleviate the overall unrest that exists (if it did, then I would say they are valid). There is no easy solution to the mess that is Iraq at this point- if there were, I’m sure our administration would have started to implement it.

S-Train,

You speak as if we went to war for profit. We did not go to war merely for oil in Iraq, despite the low opinion you have of our government. My concern in this post is that our presence in Iraq does not further disrupt the tenous situation in the middle-east. Advocating the blowing up of temples does not further our cause for a peaceful and democratic middle east. But that does not mean we are doing in merely for oil. However, it is disturbing that the real threats that Iran and N. Korea pose do not seem to be real enough for our present administration.

Abraxas, you ain’t seeing what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that in order to be a straight up butt-kicker with no regrets, you have to have a warrior mentality and willing to conquer. Not pacify. Not negotiate. Conquer! I’m am saying that WE are not a nation of warriors but businessmen collectively (maybe I’ll add politicians). Business folks have PR departments, marketing, strategy, etc. When you’re a liberator, you have to deal with all the crap like your running a business. But when your a conqueror, you can throw all that out the window. President Bush said we are liberators so that’s it. The temple stays.

I was a gang member and know first hand how to conquer. And I know the ramifications of being a conqueror. What La Shawn advocates (blowing up the temple) is in the conquering mode. But President Bush and his advisors aren’t in that mode cause they can’t. If our military destroyed every temple in Iraq that terrorists/militants were in, what you think happen here in the States and the world? The wholesale, pure, unadulterated hatred that would be directed from internally and externally would would be damn near unprecedented. I know. Cause I conquered before. So, are we Americans ready to be conquerors to fight the war on terrorism?

And where did I mention oil?

S-Train,

Actually, I understood your original post, both in content and context. I just wanted you to clarify your thoughts.

Many contracting companies that are in Iraq are already benefitting from their oil. I assumed that you meant ‘business’ in that sense. I agree with you that bombing temples in Iraq would not allow us to maximize what benefits we might be able to garner, whether that be as warrior or businessman (though I do not think these two things are necessarily mutually exclusive). What could we possibly gain by bombing the temples at this point? That was my only point.

I must give you applause La Shawn for you are only saying what many other American Christians are thinking. But I’m sad, no glad to say that I disagree with you and that you are wrong. I was raised as a Muslim, my father is and Imam and both my parents converted to Islam from christianity. I am an African American and being that, I know Christianity inside and out as well as the Bible and the Qur’an, and I know what they say. People like you are generally good people and are usually very enlightened, but your enlightenment is misled. You follow blindly what you are taught and just grow-up taking that as the truth without any research about your own beliefs let alone anyone elses. And that doesn’t just apply to religion, but almost every aspect of your life. From your blind Patriotism, history, culture, holidays, laws and legislature, to even your appearance. You all like to toss around the name of Isa(Jesus), when in fact you can’t connect any aspect of your life to him. How much of the bible is directly from the mouth of Jesus, Christian scholars say about 4.5%. Saul of Tarsus accouts for 70% of the bible. He hunted and killed the early, true followers of Jesus. The Rapture, The Trinity, Christian, Christmas, Ester, The son of God, The death of God, everyone of those terms and ideas are completely foreign to the toungue of Jesus, all were added to the religion at least 360 yrs after his apparent death. And many were ideas transplanted from pagan religions and attributed to him. Your holidays for example primarily stem form the whorship of pagan gods, Christmas Valentines day, Ester, Holloween, Thanksgiving, need I go on, I think so. I dont want offend anyone or step on anybody’s toes, but if I do Its because you have long feet. And I wont apoligize because if this where you you wouldn’t. You talk about bombing the mosques and evil in Islam, and all that other nonsense. What in the hell do you know about Islam. Let me guess, what you hear at church and on TV. Take a second and think about that logic. These are the people that hate Islam because they know the truth in it, why would they tell you anything good about it. Have you ever taken time to talk to an Imam or an educated Muslim. No, because the Media and the others in control know that tens of thousands of Americans would be coming to Islam everyday. From what I understand your Afican American, do you know that your ancestors that were brought to this land against thier will most likely were Muslim. The ideaologies that your so patriotic about come from men who were they alive today wouldn’t even see you as a human being. The land that they suppositly discovered is land that was inhabited by millions of people who are now near extinction because of of the christian idea that they they were like their slaves, less than human savages. Come on… I’m done, like many others my warning wont make it to your heart. Beware of Preconditioning