That’s what the Muslim terrorists shouted before they took over a Russian school. Like Michelle Malkin, Dennis Prager is speaking out against the unspeakable crimes committed by terrorists, who just happen to be Muslim (yeah, right). Prager writes:
Does this surprise you, dear reader? Does it shock you that the people who deliberately attacked a school and then systematically shot and blew up little children did so in the name of Islam?Unfortunately, the question is rhetorical. Having targeted little children for death, there is no atrocity, no barbarity, no act of evil that the human race cannot imagine fanatical Muslims committing.
We have already become almost inured to:
The slaughtering of innocent human beings as if they were animals while chanting Muslim prayers.
The reintroduction of black slavery and genocide against blacks.
The murder of daughters and sisters for imagined or real sexual behavior.
The stoning of women accused of adultery.
The burning of Hindu temples and Christian churches, and the destruction of among the greatest Buddhist sculptures.
Worse than this is that we’re not allowed to talk about the evils of Islamic terrorists without being called intolerant racists! Political Correctness Watch has the goods on this:
The truth is that everyone with a conscience has questions about Muslims and Islam. But the most powerful religion in America, the religion of tolerance, has rendered it almost impossible to ask any such questions. Most people are so afraid of being branded intolerant that the most natural and goodhearted questions are only posed by the handful who have the courage to do so (usually conservative Christians).But good Muslims should welcome fair questions and not dismiss them as manifestations of bigotry. Most Americans have no a priori view of Islam. As far as they are concerned, it is one more religion that its practitioners ought to be able to practice in peace just as the members of every other faith in America do.
Given this background, it is with the greatest sadness that I feel compelled to ask two questions: First, is there anything in Islam or in the way Islam is now taught and practiced that dulls the conscience and thereby enables many religious Muslims to engage in or support atrocities that other groups, religious and secular, find inconceivable?
Second, the laudable condemnations of Islamic terror made by the Islamic Center notwithstanding, why are there virtually no public demonstrations of Muslims against the unspeakable evils committed by its adherents?
Some of you readers may not think this is a bad thing, but a non-Western religion like Islam is in direct opposition to the tenets of freedom we value in America. On that basis alone we should be less “tolerant” of it. I hit the ceiling when I first heard about this Muslim prayer call nonsense in Michigan.
Muslims are called to turn toward Mecca and pray five times a day, so as a reminder, I suppose, mosques in a Michigan town will be allowed to broadcast the call on loudspeakers. Have you ever heard a Muslim prayer call? Can you imagine waking up to that atonal wailing as if you’d been transported to the Middle East? I shudder at the thought.
Our culture is decaying more and more every day. You can barely utter the name of Christ in public, and you certainly can’t do it in mixed company. But followers of Islam, which happens to be the religion of choice for murderous thugs wreaking havoc across the globe, are allowed to freely and publicly send a shout out (taxpayer-supported?) to the great and powerful (and impersonal) Allah. In the good old US of A! And church bells don’t compare, so don’t even try it.
I dread to see what kind of country this will be in twenty years. Maybe God will spare me the disappointment.
{ 1 trackback }
{ 45 comments }
The so called religion of peace is nothing but. These terrorists have got to be stopped. I guess Russia now has a seat at the table. Our friends on the left just don’t get it you have to kill these twisted and sick people before they kill you. First rule of thumb identify the enemy. They are Islamofascists bent on killing infidels.
Kind of like you can barely mutter ‘Allah’ in public without being followed by the racist FBI.
‘But followers of Islam, which happens to be the religion of choice for murderous thugs wreaking havoc across the globe,’
Im sure the Nazi’s, the KKK, the Aryan nation, the IRA, ETA, the tamil tigers, the Contras and the Israeli state are other terrorist groups that are followers of Islam, right?
‘Muslims are called to turn toward Mecca and pray five times a day, so as a reminder, I suppose, mosques in a Michigan town will be allowed to broadcast the call on loudspeakers. Have you ever heard a Muslim prayer call? Can you imagine waking up to that atonal wailing as if you’d been transported to the Middle East? I shudder at the thought.’
Very perceptive of you. I do consider it an insult. I’m very intolerant of non-Western, freedom-despising religions practiced by people who turn around and use our freedom against us! – Admin
Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television in Dubai, wrote in a London Arabic newspaper, Asharq Al-Awsat, “Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture.”
Under the headline “The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists Are Muslims!,” he wrote, “Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims.” He also wrote that if Muslims want to change their image, they must “admit the scandalous facts,” rather than disparage critics or justify terrorists’ behavior.
As a good Baptist would say, “Amen!” It’s about time somebody spoke the truth. From Russia to Iraq, from the Sudan to the Philippines, and from Madrid, Bali and Kenya to the World Trade Center in New York, a field in Pennsylvania and the Pentagon in Washington, one characteristic describes all of the killers: They are Muslims. Cal Thomas
In today’s world of technology, I would think the call to prayer could be done via text messenging or other such technological alerts. Heck, if my husband can download a program to his PDA to do a rosary (and it picks the mysteries appropriate for the day), I would think that Muslims can figure something out that won’t bug the rest of the populace.
I mean, this is America, not some backwards country like Saudi Arabia. Get with it, guys.
The only reason to play the Muslim call to prayer is to try and get others to follow your religion. Indoctrination outside the place of worship. Slow and methodical, but thank goodness common sense Americans are standing up to the madness.
I’m really not trying to quibble here. Islam as a whole has serious questions to answer concerning the atrocities committed by some of its adherents, but I think characterizing the religion as non-Western is inaccurate. Muslims in fact trace their lineage back to the same place Christians and Jews do – Abraham, albeit through Ishmael as opposed to Isaac. In a sense Jews, Christians and Muslims are all “people of the Book,” though each successive tradition has expanded the definition of what that “Book” includes. For me the better contrast is between fundamentalist and non-fundamentalist religious perspectives (one characteristic of fundametalism being the inability to consider, much less accept someone else’s point of view). I believe there are many believers out there from a variety of different Eastern and Western religious traditions (and maybe even some Muslims) who value freedom just as much as we do here in America.
Our best “weapon” against aggressive Mohammedanism is a vital, God-fearing society. Sadly, we no longer have that.
Remember Tours. Remember Lepanto. Are we yet that brave?
Mohammedanism
I haven’t heard that word in a while. I think I’ll start using it because it seems more accurate.
‘I’m very intolerant of non-Western, freedom-despising religions practiced by people who turn around and use our freedom against us! – Admin ‘
Until you have been a practising Muslim, or for starters actually READ the Qu’ran i dont think you have any authority to assume all this about Islam. Terrorists dont represent the mainstream majority of Muslims.
excellent. keep saying it and saying it louder…. i have been attacked and painted as a racist for pointing out the religion/motivation of these blood thirsty killers… are religion and race the same thing, or did i miss something?
People will be colonizing Mars before I ever “practice” Islam, and I don’t need to read the Koran to know that Muslims, at least the fanatical kind, hate me and would LOVE to see my head rolling across the floor.
And on my blog, I have the authority to opine about whatever I like.
‘People will be colonizing Mars before I ever “practice” Islam,’
Aww shame. Im sure you would make a great Muslim.
‘ and I don’t need to read the Koran to know that Muslims, at least the fanatical kind, hate me and would LOVE to see my head rolling across the floor.’
I like the little add on there. I NEARLY thought you were suggesting all Muslims hate you. I think you do need to study the Qu’ran, before making assumptions about Islam as a religion based on a minority of lunatics. Thats like me getting my information on Christianity from the Aryan Nations.
‘And on my blog, I have the authority to opine about whatever I like. ‘
‘Course. That doesnt mean what you say about Islam is true however.
*fighting back nausea*
“People will be colonizing Mars before I ever “practice” Islam…” Amen, La Shawn.
See, this much we know about omar: he is a British citizen, of Armenian ethnicity, and clearly liberal leaning to say the least. And this much I’m suspecting: he is a Muslim, and a well versed and practicing one at that. He is here to defend his religion and faith with deep and wide knowledge of Allah and the Qu’ran, while at the same time taking a few jabs and attempted bashes at our American President Bush and the right. Oh, I’m wrong? You’re not? Then please excuse me for assuming again. Well then, what right do you have to dispute La Shawn and Michelle Malkin’s claims if you are not a practicing Muslim? How many times and with what depth have you read and studied the Qu’ran? If you know so much to dispute La Shawn’s comments, if you are a practicing Muslim or a Muslim scholar, can you explain to us why the ALL terrorists mentioned by Michelle Malkin in each of those incidences are Muslims doing their good deeds in the name of Allah?
Noah, what did i tell you about assuming stuff about me? You asked me some personal questions, which i was fine with and more than happy to answer. What is your problem?
‘And this much I’m suspecting: he is a Muslim, and a well versed and practicing one at that.’
Im am NOT a Muslim. I was raised one, and remained a practising one up till the age of 15. I am now an Atheist. It just gets to me when people throw dirt on Islam without knowledge of it. Islam is SO intolerant, despite the fact my parents let me choose to go my own way as soon as i had the chance, and i still have a lot of Muslim friends who DONT want to behead me despite the fact i dont believe in deities. Shocking huh?
‘He is here to defend his religion and faith with deep and wide knowledge of Allah and the Qu’ran,’
Is that sarcasm i detect? I certainly know a lot more about Islam than people like you, who havnt seen a page of the Qu’ran, and base their opinions on Muslims from people with an ill informed knowledge of the religion, or infact no knowledge at all.
‘while at the same time taking a few jabs and attempted bashes at our American President Bush and the right.’
I think Bush is a terrible President. Sue me. Im not alone.
‘How many times and with what depth have you read and studied the Qu’ran?’
Of course i have read the Qu’ran. I dont make statements relating to it for the sake of it.
‘If you know so much to dispute La Shawn’s comments’
I think I do. Infact, i know i do. You are taking the actions of a minority group of lunatics, and using them to preach hatred against every Muslim.
‘can you explain to us why the ALL terrorists mentioned by Michelle Malkin in each of those incidences are Muslims doing their good deeds in the name of Allah?’
Whats this got to do with anything? Ive already explained this to you. These people do not represent mainstream Islam, just like the KKK or the Aryan Nations and their deeds dont represent mainstream Christianity. In your sad little blame game, you just feel the need to spew hatred against an enemy, and that enemy is every Muslim on the planet.
I have been ‘lurking’ and reading this post and I have to wonder that if Allah is the greatest, what makes him great? Deaths to the enemy? Forcing others to convert to him?
One Nation Under Allah?
I was going to post further about my experience at the Townhall meetup, specifically in regards to the propostion that is coming up for a vote here in Cali regarding Stem Cell Research, but given the recent events concerning the terrorists in Russia and some recent posts by my favorite blogger Lashawn Barber, I decided to post something more relative to keep with the theme……
http://jmcclellan.blogspot.com (Truth Be Told)
Hey LaShawn, a nice town hall link. I can’t wait for it to show up
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/cliffordmay/cm20040909.shtml
Finally, some prominent Muslims are saying Islam has to take some ownership of the terrorism done is the name of Allah.
-Zola
Omar, you told me time and time again not to assume. I guess I just don’t learn. But, “I certainly know a lot more about Islam than people like you, who havnt seen a page of the Qu’ran…” are you not assuming too? How do you know that? You have fallen for the same sin that you have damned me for. I guess we all play that game. I could go point by point in replying your reply but I might get deleted by the Administrator (La Shawn) as I did last time with my reply to one of your comments. So I will just say that I have no sarcasm towards you (did you assume again?), nor written any derogetory comments against you, nor wish to sue you for your any political views. I remember you said that you wish to become an American citizen. Great. I hope you can do it in the next 4 years. That way you’ll have President George W. Bush on watch as commander in chief of your new country of citizenship and as your new president. Welcome!
As to your question asking me what is my problem, I’ll be more than glad to tell you through direct contact perhaps. La Shawn’s blog is not a good medium to express and list my “problem” with islamofascism in such a descriptive and honest way.
Dear LaShawn,
Thanks for an excellent blog.
Omar is right in one respect: Bin Laden and co. do not represent the best of Islam. The troubling thing that he doesn’t acknowledge, however, is that there are—or am I missing something?—precious few influential voices in the Islamic mainstream who forthrightly and unequivocally condemn Islamist terrorism.
A hunch as to the reason for this silence: Islam is riven by an identity crisis. Who are we, Muslims are asking themselves, vis-a-vis modernity and the West?
Now, if it’s true that terrorism doesn’t represent the best of Islam, which I’ve already granted, then the recourse to terror (and the failure to condemn it roundly on the part of the bigwigs in today’s Islamic community) points to, or just is, a massive failure to resolve the identity crisis by going back to what’s best in Islam. And that’s just as bad as it would be if there were no, or had been no, “best” of Islam.
That having been said, I would add—as a Christian—that even Islam at its best falls short when it comes to dealing with modernity theologically. Without Christ, who is both fully God and fully man at one and the same time, we just aren’t able to hold together the omnipotence of God and human freedom without diminishing either.
Thanks for your hospitality.
Adrian
“I dread to see what kind of country this will be in twenty years. Maybe God will spare me the disappointment.”
You echo another noteworthy Black American conservative: Walter Williams when he said, “I’m glad I’m as old as I am. I’ll die before I see the worst of it.”
Mark and La Shawn: many understand your momentary despair. The alternative is, of course, we fight back. If it’s a “war of cultures,” both abroad and here at home, let’s start acting like it and fight for the survival of the “culture” we want to see prevail, recognizing that it is a war. We owe it to ourselves, our children and our grandchildren. Make your radical Islamist opponents utter such statements as “I dread to see what kind of world this will be in twenty years. Maybe Allah will spare me the disappointment.” Here at home, I’m not certain what divine entity your liberal opponents will beseech, since invoking the name of God in public is anathema.
I am surprised that Omar still breathes as the Koran states that anyone who leaves Islam must be beheaded.
And these quotes from a pro-Muslim website
“The Sisters of Islam in Malaysia, for example, have fought a proposal by the Islamic party to implement the death penalty for anyone who leaves Islam, and harsh penalties against women. The group has spurred debate through the media, challenging clerics over their failure to see Islamic law in a historical context.
“I’m a feminist and a believer, and am determined not to be forced into exile,” Ms. Anwar says. “Muslims need intellectual vigor, moral courage, and political will to open the door to ijtihad.”
“The question is how we reinterpret sharia for the 21st century,” Masmoudi adds. “This is the concept of ijtihad in Muslim jurisprudence, which means adapting religious teachings to the current needs of the community.”
It’s well accepted throughout the Muslim world that the decay of Muslim civilization began 500 years ago because religious scholars stopped reinterpreting Islamic law. Part of today’s debate is who can legitimately participate. Many say the complexities of contemporary society demand it go far beyond religious scholars. “If you want to apply sharia to banking, you have to understand banking,” Alkebsi says.
Many argue that women must be part of the process. Some are working with women in the US and abroad to reinterpret their role according to the Koran.”
If Islam is so great just the way it is, then why are women and non-Islamists having to go to such great lengths for equality and respect? And why do governments have to describe themselves as secular in order to circumvent Islamic law? I do not see the evidence that the ‘majority’ of Muslims do not agree atleast somewhat with the terrorists. In this day and age, even Omar telling La Shawn that she’d make a great Islamist is enough to chill some to the bone. This girl will not be dhimmied.
‘I am surprised that Omar still breathes as the Koran states that anyone who leaves Islam must be beheaded.’
Which Surah/Hadith are you using to support this wild statement? You are using the opinions of some extremists to make a sweeping generalisation about Islam.
The manner of execution in the Old Testament could be stoning, burning, using a sword, spear or arrow (Lev 20:27, 21:9, Ex 19:13, 32:27, Numb 25:7-8).
Ive posted links here in the past to prominent Muslims who condemn terrorism, its just no one seems to want to listen. Most people have their minds already made up.
By the way, saying La Shawn would be a good Muslim was a joke. Her reaction said it all. Disgust.
“I think Bush is a terrible President. Sue me. Im not alone.” (Who said this? Oh, a foreigner, a non-American, an Armenian Brit. Figures.)
Omar, I assumed again, that you might want to become an American citizen in the next 4 years so to be able to join our family, so to speak, with George Bush as your new daddy (figure of speech). I had forgotten the minor detail that you “think Bush is a terrible President.” And with your kind of “punk”(observed by another commentor) attitude, maybe you should rethink about becoming an American citizen in the next 4 years until 2008 or beyond when liberals grow up and earn the “fit” to be at the helm of the country you are trying to citizen yourself into.
Another wonder, why have you left Great Britian for United States? Does your Prime Minister Tony Blair disappoint you or even anger you by standing staunchly with our President Bush on the War on Islamofascist Terrorism? You probably like other aspects of our country other than our President. That’s safe to assume right? But I wonder why not become a French citizen. Wouldn’t it suit you a lot better?
Noah…
the notion of Omar and Bush, with Bush saying “Who’s yer daddy? Say it. ‘Dubba’s ma daddy!’. Yeah, that’s right.” was the only image that came into my mind after reading your post… my scotch nearly came out of my nose.
haha, gotta hold it in, SCSI.
Omar, please don’t use the Old Testament as anything more than a historical reference for Christians. Christ came specifically to enlighten us that the OT was outdated, and the only way to live in His way was through Him (I’m sure the pastors in our company could state this more eloquently). Not through Leviticus, Exodus, or Numbers (as you quote), but through the Gospels.
He made clear that even the Ten Commandments, though a revolutionary recipe for life during Moses’ time, were superceded in Christos time by two amazing concepts: loving our Lord above all other things, and loving our neighbor as oneself, or as God loves us. The concepts are so beyond basic human instincts of fear and survival that we will probably argue them until the real Kingdom Come. But they are very very far from the Old Testament ways of life, and not even in the same hemisphere spiritually as Islam.
I’m sure you see beauty in Islam; the sanctified cruelty overshadows the beauty IMHO. But to challenge your soul to rise above pettiness, and to attempt to live as Christ commanded, is an exercise in a beauty we can only see glimpses of through the fog of our own sin. It requires a leap of faith, but once made, the landing pad is full of welcome and rejoicing.
Omar, I challenge you to find a message of hate or vindictiveness in the New Testament, one coming directly from our Lord. Or one of exclusion or prejudice. One of the beauties of Christ is that he came for us all, not just the Jews, and he raised many an eyebrow for the mixed company he kept.
Sorry, LaShawn, if I went overboard. It just strikes a nerve with me when someone tries to use the Old Testament against Christians.
Right on Jeannie
Dear Jeannie,
As a Christian, I agree with you that Christ is the (one and only) Way, Truth, and Life. But it isn’t quite right, theologically speaking, to say that Christ reveals the O.T. to be “outdated.” After all, he himself said that he had come, not to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them. Christians, then, don’t jettison the O.T.—I know you’re not suggesting that they do or should—but read it “spiritually,” as Paul would say. And “spiritually” means: understanding that the O.T. foreshadows or prefigures Christ Thus,the letter of the Mosaic Law is no longer binding on us, but this is only because, thanks to Christ, we now know what the letter was speaking, or poining to, in a “veiled” way: Christ. Thus, all of the passages that Omar refers to in the O.T. have a “spiritual” meaning that becomes clear in the light of Christ. As Augustine put it, the New Testament is hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament becomes plain in the New. In other words, and in agreement with you over against Omar, for us Christians the Bible is One Book—and Christ is its One Theme and One Key to unlocking the meaning of all of its parts. Indeed, for us Christians, the Word of God is ultimately . . . Christ himself, who was in the beginning with God, and was God, and through whom all things came into being.
Adrian
Thank you, Adrian for clarifying. I totally agree. What I was specifically addressing, or at least had in my mind, were the punishment aspects of the Old Testament that Omar quoted above. That’s what I meant by “outdated” – I was thinking of “Let he without sin…” To me, this is the true mercy of Christ, and one of the most blatant ways he supercedes the OT.
BTW, I just read a fabulous book that posits that the true miracle was not Christ telling the Jewish leaders not to stone Mary, it was that they listened to Him. I’ve been blown away by that for a few weeks now.
Hey Omar… Show me one positive thing that Islam has done for humanity in the last 100 years then we can talk. I dont know of anything.
How come Islam is at the root of every conflict going on in the world today?
If you scratch any terrorist, you find a mohammedian underneath?
Did anyone here pick up that Canada is going to start using Sharia law to ajudicate some court cases. they need to get a grip on separation of church and state right quick or you ladies in Canada will all be in burkas soon. Gads. The intel was in yesterdays Slate ezine.
‘“I think Bush is a terrible President. Sue me. Im not alone.” (Who said this? Oh, a foreigner, a non-American, an Armenian Brit. Figures.)’
Xenophobe. Do you hate foreigners? If you think every American citizen supports Bush, then you are deluded.
‘And with your kind of “punk”(observed by another commentor) attitude, maybe you should rethink about becoming an American citizen in the next 4 years until 2008 or beyond when liberals grow up and earn the “fit” to be at the helm of the country you are trying to citizen yourself into.’
Nah. Id LOVE to be a citizen, just to make right wing xenophobes like you fume. What you are in essence saying is…you dont think i have any right to be an American because of my liberal left wing beliefs. Maybe staunch Conservatives should grow up and realise their country is built upon ever changing liberal thinking.
‘I do not know which makes a man more conservative — to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past.’
- John Maynard Keynes
‘Another wonder, why have you left Great Britian for United States?’
I currently live at UCS Santa Barbara. My University course back home in England requires living and studying for at least 8 months in the USA/Canada. I naturally chose America
The US government is surprising good with visas (I think they like Brits) and ive actually been encouraged to seek a job when i get my degree. US employers LOVE British university degrees.
‘You probably like other aspects of our country other than our President. That’s safe to assume right?’
Of course. America is a fantastic country, with great, usually friendly people.
‘But I wonder why not become a French citizen. Wouldn’t it suit you a lot better? ‘
France actually has quite a prominent right wing nationalist country. I wouldnt wanna live in France if you paid me. And yes i have been there. Just because im left wing doesnt mean i wanna live in France.
‘It just strikes a nerve with me when someone tries to use the Old Testament against Christians.’
My point proven. I deliberatly blew the Bible out of all proportion……JUST like people here do to the Qu’ran, and Islam in general. Not cool is it?
Omar – Do you hang out at any Muslim blogs? Leftist blogs? I’m curious about what draws you to my site.
Dear Jeannie,
Another thought: as Paul says in Galatians, the Law was our pedagogue—our tutor while we were still children not yet mature. Irenaeus, one of the early Church Fathers, made a lot of this idea: God prepares the world for the coming of his Son in stages. This could shed some light on the “harsher” aspects of the Mosaic law. My hunch, in other words, is that, if you compared these “harsher” aspects of Moses’ law with how people had behaved before thatlaw was given, you’d find that these “harsher” aspects are either (a) already a first step towards limiting human ferocity(for example: an eye is to be given for an eye—and not a whole life) or (b) a first step towards making people aware of the evil of certain actions (for example, homosexual sex). Looked at from this point of view, the “harshness” or violence wouldn’t show that the God of the O.T. is unmerciful, but, rather, that he is beginning to hae mercy on the human race—but that he has to be tough at the beginning because he’s dealing with some rough customers who aren’t used to his ways. The violence of certain aspects of the Mosaic law was appropriate to the state of those who first received it—who were absolute beginners, so to speak,and so needed to be shaken up. At the same time, God destined this “violence,” along with the whole Law, to be “interiorized” through the gift of the Spirit that would be poured out after Jesus’ death and Resurrection. God says to Moses that the Law is given for ever—and it is, only the “mode” in which it exists and applies after Christ is now different, has become “spiritual” in the Pauline sense. The fruit of the “violence” in the O.T. was Mary, and Joseph, and Anna, and Simeon: God’s “poor” who had been prepared by long suffering to receive the Word of God as he was becoming incarnate and entering the world for them and for us.
I haven’t read the book you mention but it sounds interesting.
Cheers.
‘Omar – Do you hang out at any Muslim blogs? Leftist blogs? I’m curious about what draws you to my site.’
Not Muslim Blogs, but i post on lefty blogs, and message boards…mostly Ezboard Axis of Justice and Nearly Famous. Im not here to preach or change peoples political dogmas or whatever. Mostly just to try and correct misconceptions about Islam.
Omar,
My experience is that Islam as practiced and exported by the Saudis do not tolerate conversion away from the faith.
Other denominations of Islam (particularily sub-Saharan African & Asian countries) that were/are tolerant and practice the “religion of peace” as pertains to co-existing with other faiths during the last century are slowly being strangled and radicalized by the wahabists “missionaries” to the point that I read somewhere that almost 3/4 of the mosques outside of the ME are now of the wahabi denomination.
Way back in early 70s, my family knew a young man who had converted to Christianity while away at school. When he returned home to visit his “moderate” family and village, his family didn’t kill him, but they sure beat the crap out of him.
As far as I know, he has never been back home. Similar stories abound and that’s just the moderate type. Pretty much the only type that don’t “care” one way or another would be the liberal/secular Muslim communities.
Would it be safe to assume that your family weren’t wahabist otherwise, they’d terminate you for rejecting the faith?
Unless Muslims as a whole experience some sort of reformation/enlightenment and beat back the 8th century radicals, it would be just a matter of time before most believers can be painted with the same Mohammedanism stroke.
Quite frankly, I believe that Islam is the spawn of Satan. A bastardized attempt to shift Jehovah’s promise to Abraham for Issac to Ishmael. That’s the tragedy of Sarah’s disbelief in God’s promise which will still reverbrate to the end of time.
Hence the contraditions within the koran claiming that Jews, Christians and Muslims are all people of the Book to suck in the gullible on one hand and when that doesn’t work, the exhortation to convert all resisters, including the Jews and Christians to allah (Satan) by the sword.
This is something that was never promoted by the Old & New Testaments, rather a separation from the rest of the world.
Personally, I find it problematic with any religion, or for that matter political/social construct, that demands blind obedience as opposed to membership by free will. And don’t bother throwing in the canard about inquisition period, since that too is a bastardization of Christianity by those who came after the Book was written.
For what it’s worth, ya’ll should check out Larry Abraham’s “The Clash of Civilizations and the Great Caliphate” about the 3rd great jihad. Just google the title.
‘My experience is that Islam as practiced and exported by the Saudis do not tolerate conversion away from the faith.’
Im not sure if you are familiar with the Khilafah or not, but this is the political system basiacally outlined in the Qu’ran. It does NOT include nationalism, or much of the stuff that goes on in Saudi Arabia so i dont at all support supposed Islamic countries. Let me straighten out this, i dont defend Muslim countries….only Islam from misconceptions as a whole.
‘As far as I know, he has never been back home. Similar stories abound and that’s just the moderate type. Pretty much the only type that don’t “care” one way or another would be the liberal/secular Muslim communities.’
I certainly wasnt raised in a secular manner. I was a practising Muslim, that attended the Mosque frequently and mingled with many other Muslims. My parents obviously tried to argue against my decision, but they certainly didnt behead me or beat me up.
‘Would it be safe to assume that your family weren’t wahabist otherwise, they’d terminate you for rejecting the faith?’
My parents are Sunni, but not Wahabist. Wahabism is fundamentalism that was founded in the 18th century. Wahabism and Islam do not go hand in hand. I dont think
Wahabists would necessarily ‘exterminate’ people for rejecting the faith anyway.
‘Quite frankly, I believe that Islam is the spawn of Satan.’
—Removed by Admin—
‘Hence the contraditions within the koran claiming that Jews, Christians and Muslims are all people of the Book to suck in the gullible on one hand and when that doesn’t work, the exhortation to convert all resisters, including the Jews and Christians to allah (Satan) by the sword. ‘
The Qu’ran doesnt make contradictions on this issue. It claims Jews and Muslims are people of the book, and should be tolerated and allowed to live in Muslim lands. If you want to talk about hypocrisy and contradictions, maybe you should consider what Christian countries did to non Christians. Oh and by the way, Allah just means God. So in effect, you are calling God Satan. And the Old Testament advocated death to people who condemned God, practised sorcery, had sex before marriage etc etc etc…..
‘Personally, I find it problematic with any religion, or for that matter political/social construct, that demands blind obedience as opposed to membership by free will.’
Thats ridiculous, since many Christian countries as well as other religions have required exactly what you condemn. And why shouldnt i use the Inquisition period? You are perfectly happy to use ‘bastardizations’ of Islam to condemn the entire religion.
Andy, I love it! “they’d terminate you for rejecting the faith?” You’ve been hanging with the Governator!
Adrian – I LOVE your explanation. It’s so amazing to see in hindsight how the Lord was present for us through it all. Humanity was like a roomful of toddlers who needed Dad to step in and lay down the law. No biting, no hitting, no screaming, or I turn you all into salt! Thank you for expanding on the whole OT/NT issue.
The book was called “Stones of My Accusers” and was a fictional account of a prostitute during the time of Jesus that included much discussion among Jews and Jesus’ followers of the time. I think her biggest challenge was to believe that forgiveness was out there. I enjoyed it far more than I thought I would; it’s by Tracy Groot.
Sorry Omar, but allah is not the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus. So I still stand by allah is Satan, and Mohammed is his
greatest/lasteffective false prophet, even as I remain friendly with Muslims.And I am indeed glad that your parents didn’t try to behead or beat you up.
Too bad Rushdie and other dissenters are still in hiding. It was at Speaker’s Corner shortly after that fatwa came out, after one young Muslim man’s soapbox rant on an Easter Monday evening, an middle-aged Angelican woman and I must have discussed Rushdie and our various faiths with him till almost midnight. It must have been stimulating for him since he missed his 5th evening prayers. It was then that I realized that jihad wasn’t taking place in some desolate backwards looking far-off land, but was going to be front and center in our communities sooner or later.
Is Islam the Babylonian whore of Revelations? I don’t know and it really doesn’t matter. Some have claimed Rome to be the whore. For all I know, the great antichrist could be cHillary; since whoever it is, the world is supposed to embrace with open arms along with the last great false prophet standing at his/her side as they lead us to Armageddon.
I appreciate your clarification of Khilafah, as that sounds like the “moderate” Muslims that I grew up with. Likewise that permitted the Jews and Christians to live amongst them–provided they didn’t recruit.
But at the rate that extremisim is spreading, it would appear that Sharia is becoming the rule. That’s why after centuries of relative peace, churches and synagouges are being vandalized/destroyed in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere. And the Palestinians, after being displaced by fellow Arabs are trying to drive Isreal into the sea. That’s some sibling rivalry.
You’re misleading when you state that “ I dont think Wahabists would necessarily ‘exterminate’ people for rejecting the faith anyway“. This is at the core of the wahabi orthodoxy.
“The Qu’ran doesnt make contradictions on this issue. It claims Jews and Muslims are people of the book, and should be tolerated and allowed to live in Muslim lands.”
You omitted Christians. And yes, the koran does flipflop on the issue of Jews and Christians place in Islamic society as interpreted by radical Mullahs.
“And why shouldnt i use the Inquisition period? You are perfectly happy to use ‘bastardizations’ of Islam to condemn the entire religion.”
One, I didn’t condemn the entire religion. I’m perfectly happy to co-exist with Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and what have you, even tho I don’t believe that any of them will redemn us in the hereafter, as long as no one is trying to kill each other over it.
Two, because the inquisition has been discredited by modern day Christians. Ditto for “christian nations” going back to Constantine. It was not until the founding of this country was the notion that the people should have freedom of religion. Until then, it was one form of autocratic pseudo-christian dogma vs another (catholic, angelican, hugenots, etc). But for many countries, the allure of power thru religion is strong and thusly bastardized, to wit “christian” Serbia.
The Bible does NOT include nationalism, or much of the stuff that goes on in so-called christian nations so I don’t at all support supposed christian countries. Let me straighten out this, I don’t defend christian countries….only Christianity from misconceptions as a whole.
Bottomline, although Islam evolved over the ages, Wahabis are trying to force a return to Mohammedan dogma by the edge of the sword and by any means necessary, hence the widespread support for Osama and his friends. I for one, support knocking that demon back into the 8th century.
‘Sorry Omar, but allah is not the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus. So I still stand by allah is Satan, and Mohammed is his greatest/last effective false prophet, even as I remain friendly with Muslims.’
You are very extreme in your beliefs. In your zeal, you cant see than Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths. The Qu’ran recognises Abraham as the first prophet, and Jesus as one also…..which means Muslims believe Allah sent this men. Im not insulted by your anti Muslim slander, as im not a Muslim…..but your theocratical understanding is off.
‘And the Palestinians, after being displaced by fellow Arabs are trying to drive Isreal into the sea.’
This is false. They were displaced from the land when Israel/Palestine failed to be partitioned due to Zionist terrorism, and American influence. Instead the lone state of Israel was created, and so began over 50 years of oppression of the Palestinians. Many Israeli Rabbi’s have called for the ‘justified’ killings of innocent Palestinians.
‘This is at the core of the wahabi orthodoxy.’
Not really…Wahabi is a very specific form of Islamic Fundamentalism. Its not really orthodox either.
‘You omitted Christians.’
I meant to include them also.
‘And yes, the koran does flipflop on the issue of Jews and Christians place in Islamic society as interpreted by radical Mullahs.’
The Qu’ran explicitly states Christians and Jews are people of the book, and should be tolerated. They will apparently be rewarded for this in paradise.
‘One, I didn’t condemn the entire religion.’
Er, yes you did. You called it the spawn of satan, if i remember correctly.
‘Two, because the inquisition has been discredited by modern day Christians. ‘
Ah checkmate. Just like Fundamentalist Terrorism has been discredited by prominent Muslims TODAY. I’ll get some recent quotes addressing Beslan if you want them.
‘It was not until the founding of this country was the notion that the people should have freedom of religion.’
But this didnt exist in reality. Even CATHOLIC’S werent treated equally. Let alone Jews. I doubt many Muslims were in the states at this time.
Wahabism is totally distorted. It actually doesnt relate to the Qu’ran much at all.
Dear Friends,
I (partly) agree with Omar and also disagree with him.
The (partial) agreement: Religions should be judged by their best fruits, not by their worst. Christianity is often dismissed today with a casual wave of the hand and a sneering reference to the Crusades, the Inquisition, Galileo, Constantine, the Saint Bartholomew’s Day Massacre, or whatever. Moreover, for Christ and his Revelation to be 100% right—which I believe them to be—it isn’t necessary for Islam to be 100% wrong. The fact of the matter is that Muslims believe many things that Christians not only can believe, but, so to say, have to believe: that there is one, omnipotent, transcendent, personal God; that he created all things out of nothing; that he reveals himself historically; that there is a judgment, a Heaven, and a Hell; that there are angels and souls; that Jesus was born of a Virgin, and so on. Of course, on a Christian account,none of these beliefs, not even all of them together, are sufficient for salvation (how God deals with individual cases of “men of good will” who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the Gospel, is another question that we can leave to the theologians). Still, a Muslim who converted to Christianity wouldn’t have to redudiate any of the beliefs I just listed—although he would have to repudiate some others and would doubtless find his understanding of the ones he didn’t have to jettison by the fact of their being brought into relation with his newfound faith in Christ. My point, then, is not that “all religions are equally valid,” but only that Islam needn’t be totally false in order for Christianity to be totally right.
Now for my disagreement: let’s grant that the majority of Muslims are pious, god-fearing people who aren’t interested in killing little children in gymnasiums. So what? I don’t mean to belittle the goodness of such people, but only to say that invoking them in arguments like these is a bit of a red herring. The fact of the matter is that, as the gentleman from Al-Aarabiyah recently admitted, even though most Muslims are not terrorists, most terrorists are Muslims. To put it another way: for several decades now, there has been an organized—loosely, perhaps, but organized, nonetheless—movement of, shall we say, restorationism, in Islam, a movement that has demonstrably produced fruits like Al Quaeda.
Now, this movement may or may not be in harmony with the best of classical, historical Islam. Let’s grant that it isn’t. Even on this supposition, the movement is no less worrying or potentially dangerous—and the fact that it exists is a testimony to the fact that something has gone wrong in the Islamic community today, even if not all, or even not most, Muslims are therefore bad people.
The problem with the Islamic resurgence isn’t the it’s critical of the West. Aren’t Christian conservatives critical of the West, too, at least in certain respects? The problem is rather that the criticism, however legitimate, has in too many cases led to unjust and horrific violence—to terrorism. If there is a “best of Islam,” which I am willing to grant, then shouldn’t an Islamic resurgence have drawn on that, rather than on terroristic ideology, to restore it? And why hasn’t it?
I’m not competent to answer that. I would grant that there are a lot of reasons that don’t have to do with the best of Islam. But it may also be that Islam, even at its best, ultimately doesn’t have the theological resources for dealing with modernity without succumbing either to integralism or secularism. That is a question that we Christians need to face, without fear of being condemned as “intolerant.” But, and this has been my only point, facing this question is different from (pardon the cliche) demonizing Islam as if it could only be 100% wrong or were nothing but a religious pretext for rapine, conquest, and terror.
Adrian
Adrian, I hear you, but even if being 1% false includes dismissing John 3:16, one may as well be 100% false. The Branch Davidians, LDS, Moonies and other cults are sufficiently false so as to be 100% wrong.
@ Omar:
“You are very extreme in your beliefs. In your zeal, you cant see than Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths. The Qu’ran recognises Abraham as the first prophet, and Jesus as one also…which means Muslims believe Allah sent this men. Im not insulted by your anti Muslim slander, as im not a Muslim…but your theocratical understanding is off.”
I’m not extremist, just hyperbolic, since I’m tired of the PC crap about the religion of peace BS (sorry La Shawn). Extreme would be saying something to the effect of a good Muslim is a dead one.
The Pharisees and Sadduces were also “Abrahamic” and Jesus condemned them as children of Satan because they had piously twisted the Laws of Moses and turned Judaism into a legalistic cesspool.
Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except by me. Centuries later, along comes Mohammed and said I am the last prophet and forget what Jesus said, you can’t get to heaven except by jihad. Please explain how the last prophet trumps the Son of God?
“You omitted Christians.
I meant to include them also.”
That’s ok, just a “Freudian” slip. Islam as a religion is Abrahamic only in that the seed of Ishmael tried to hijack Issac’s birthright.
In doing so, it’s not fundamental to include Christians, since as theological bloodlines go, Jesus is the direct descendant of Issac, Judah’s whore, David among others, and therefore a dead-end step-brother in the larger scheme of Islamic doctrine; chronological and/or transitional timelines notwithstanding. The fact that Judaism don’t recognize Jesus as the messiah also helps.
That said, I’m hardly extreme, just pragmatic. I’m not willing to see anyone perish at the hand of man simply for a belief in a false god. That’s something I’ll leave to God. On the other hand, I’ve no compunction for punting any hostile warrior or terrorist into Judgment Day in defense of my country.
“They were displaced from the land when Israel/Palestine failed to be partitioned due to Zionist terrorism, and American influence. Instead the lone state of Israel was created, and so began over 50 years of oppression of the Palestinians. Many Israeli Rabbi’s have called for the “justified killings of innocent Palestinians.”
That’s funny, when I overlay the Old Testament map of Isreal over today’s map… Seems to me that they didn’t get nearly enough of their ancestral land back, including all of Jerusalem.
Ethnically speaking, I seem to recall reading somewhere that today’s Palestinian is actually Jordanian. Rather than reintegrate the 10s of thousand displaced Palestinians way back then, Jordan chose to keep them in refugee camps as a UN bargaining chip, and now we have millions of them. Talk about pawns of Arabic hegemony.
All the same, the numerically superior Arabs couldn’t drive the Israelis into the sea, not one, twice but thrice. Talk about incompetent idiots!! No wonder they’re so frustrated that they need a nuke to just blow the place, since they can’t fight man to man, not even in the Olympic sports arena. What was that again about Jews are people of the book?
As for the “many” Rabbis calling…, seems that more Palestinians have died at the inept/corrupt hands of their own kinsman rather than by unprovoked Israelis. Otherwise, why would Isreali Arabs (IIRC, approx 1 million) be content to live in Israel and retain their Israeli citizenship?
Ah checkmate. Just like Fundamentalist Terrorism has been discredited by prominent Muslims TODAY. I’ll get some recent quotes addressing Beslan if you want them.”
Don’t bother, as of yet there’s not enough of them to turn the tide. I know they’re out there. It’s just a shame that it’s taken this long for relatively few of them to come out and say so. I’ve already mentioned that peaceful Muslims do exist, they’re just being drowned out by CAIR and other Saudi shills.
On the other hand, since the koran doctrine permits lying about one’s intentions in order to excute jihad, maybe it’s just another decoy tactic in bringing about the new caliphate.
Nevertheless, in the aftermath of Beslan, a British Mullah came out in support of hostage taking of British school chldren IF for a just cause. Of course he was referring to jihad.
“But this didnt exist in reality. Even CATHOLIC’S werent treated equally. Let alone Jews. I doubt many Muslims were in the states at this time.”
Because Catholics were still regarded with suspicion given that most Americans left Europe to get away from Rome and the Church of England. As for Muslims, I also doubt many were here when capturing and selling slaves to the slave merchants in Africa proved to be more lucrative.
Bear in mind, it was only since the invention of the Guttenberg press, that Christianity began to evolve. Once the average literate man could possess his own Bible to read and judge for himself, he was then able to question various tenants of faith as expoused by the elitist priests of the times.
And when they couldn’t find religious peace at home, they set off for the new world. Better to risk life and limb crossing over and an untamed land than put up with the “wahabic” Christianity at home.
Sort of like the modern day Muslim that migrated here to get away from political/religious morass at home. Although these days, it’s difficult to tell if they’re coming here to claim a piece of freedom for themselves or to destroy it.
hmmm, I goofed on closing off the 1st quote. my bad.
Andy and Adrian, that is more than I could ever say to Omar with such reason and logic and historic and Biblical knowledge. I’m all emotion.
Thanks. I think that will quiet him for a while, till he comes up with some lines to discrimately/selectively respond in his typical smart-aleck freshman-debate-class attitude(with a punk bad-boy wannabe flare). Let him do some school(UCS Santa Barbara? What school is that? I live in California and i never heard of that school. Unless he meant UC Santa Barbara or Santa Barbara City College) work before he fail some of his general ed. courses. Sorry Omar, that was just too irrisistable. Your comments, your logic, the way you respond to us, and your attitude gave away your age. Make good use of our American school system through your exchange program and study hard. And good luck when you go back to England.
Comments on this entry are closed.