@ Omar:
“You are very extreme in your beliefs. In your zeal, you cant see than Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths. The Qu’ran recognises Abraham as the first prophet, and Jesus as one also…which means Muslims believe Allah sent this men. Im not insulted by your anti Muslim slander, as im not a Muslim…but your theocratical understanding is off.”

I’m not extremist, just hyperbolic, since I’m tired of the PC crap about the religion of peace BS (sorry La Shawn). Extreme would be saying something to the effect of a good Muslim is a dead one.

The Pharisees and Sadduces were also “Abrahamic” and Jesus condemned them as children of Satan because they had piously twisted the Laws of Moses and turned Judaism into a legalistic cesspool.

Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except by me. Centuries later, along comes Mohammed and said I am the last prophet and forget what Jesus said, you can’t get to heaven except by jihad. Please explain how the last prophet trumps the Son of God?

“You omitted Christians.
I meant to include them also.”

That’s ok, just a “Freudian” slip. Islam as a religion is Abrahamic only in that the seed of Ishmael tried to hijack Issac’s birthright.

In doing so, it’s not fundamental to include Christians, since as theological bloodlines go, Jesus is the direct descendant of Issac, Judah’s whore, David among others, and therefore a dead-end step-brother in the larger scheme of Islamic doctrine; chronological and/or transitional timelines notwithstanding. The fact that Judaism don’t recognize Jesus as the messiah also helps.

That said, I’m hardly extreme, just pragmatic. I’m not willing to see anyone perish at the hand of man simply for a belief in a false god. That’s something I’ll leave to God. On the other hand, I’ve no compunction for punting any hostile warrior or terrorist into Judgment Day in defense of my country.

“They were displaced from the land when Israel/Palestine failed to be partitioned due to Zionist terrorism, and American influence. Instead the lone state of Israel was created, and so began over 50 years of oppression of the Palestinians. Many Israeli Rabbi’s have called for the “justified killings of innocent Palestinians.”

That’s funny, when I overlay the Old Testament map of Isreal over today’s map… Seems to me that they didn’t get nearly enough of their ancestral land back, including all of Jerusalem.

Ethnically speaking, I seem to recall reading somewhere that today’s Palestinian is actually Jordanian. Rather than reintegrate the 10s of thousand displaced Palestinians way back then, Jordan chose to keep them in refugee camps as a UN bargaining chip, and now we have millions of them. Talk about pawns of Arabic hegemony.

All the same, the numerically superior Arabs couldn’t drive the Israelis into the sea, not one, twice but thrice. Talk about incompetent idiots!! No wonder they’re so frustrated that they need a nuke to just blow the place, since they can’t fight man to man, not even in the Olympic sports arena. What was that again about Jews are people of the book?

As for the “many” Rabbis calling…, seems that more Palestinians have died at the inept/corrupt hands of their own kinsman rather than by unprovoked Israelis. Otherwise, why would Isreali Arabs (IIRC, approx 1 million) be content to live in Israel and retain their Israeli citizenship?

Ah checkmate. Just like Fundamentalist Terrorism has been discredited by prominent Muslims TODAY. I’ll get some recent quotes addressing Beslan if you want them.”

Don’t bother, as of yet there’s not enough of them to turn the tide. I know they’re out there. It’s just a shame that it’s taken this long for relatively few of them to come out and say so. I’ve already mentioned that peaceful Muslims do exist, they’re just being drowned out by CAIR and other Saudi shills.

On the other hand, since the koran doctrine permits lying about one’s intentions in order to excute jihad, maybe it’s just another decoy tactic in bringing about the new caliphate.

Nevertheless, in the aftermath of Beslan, a British Mullah came out in support of hostage taking of British school chldren IF for a just cause. Of course he was referring to jihad.

“But this didnt exist in reality. Even CATHOLIC’S werent treated equally. Let alone Jews. I doubt many Muslims were in the states at this time.”

Because Catholics were still regarded with suspicion given that most Americans left Europe to get away from Rome and the Church of England. As for Muslims, I also doubt many were here when capturing and selling slaves to the slave merchants in Africa proved to be more lucrative.

Bear in mind, it was only since the invention of the Guttenberg press, that Christianity began to evolve. Once the average literate man could possess his own Bible to read and judge for himself, he was then able to question various tenants of faith as expoused by the elitist priests of the times.

And when they couldn’t find religious peace at home, they set off for the new world. Better to risk life and limb crossing over and an untamed land than put up with the “wahabic” Christianity at home.

Sort of like the modern day Muslim that migrated here to get away from political/religious morass at home. Although these days, it’s difficult to tell if they’re coming here to claim a piece of freedom for themselves or to destroy it.

I (partly) agree with Omar and also disagree with him.

The (partial) agreement: Religions should be judged by their best fruits, not by their worst. Christianity is often dismissed today with a casual wave of the hand and a sneering reference to the Crusades, the Inquisition, Galileo, Constantine, the Saint Bartholomew’s Day Massacre, or whatever. Moreover, for Christ and his Revelation to be 100% right—which I believe them to be—it isn’t necessary for Islam to be 100% wrong. The fact of the matter is that Muslims believe many things that Christians not only can believe, but, so to say, have to believe: that there is one, omnipotent, transcendent, personal God; that he created all things out of nothing; that he reveals himself historically; that there is a judgment, a Heaven, and a Hell; that there are angels and souls; that Jesus was born of a Virgin, and so on. Of course, on a Christian account,none of these beliefs, not even all of them together, are sufficient for salvation (how God deals with individual cases of “men of good will” who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the Gospel, is another question that we can leave to the theologians). Still, a Muslim who converted to Christianity wouldn’t have to redudiate any of the beliefs I just listed—although he would have to repudiate some others and would doubtless find his understanding of the ones he didn’t have to jettison by the fact of their being brought into relation with his newfound faith in Christ. My point, then, is not that “all religions are equally valid,” but only that Islam needn’t be totally false in order for Christianity to be totally right.

Now for my disagreement: let’s grant that the majority of Muslims are pious, god-fearing people who aren’t interested in killing little children in gymnasiums. So what? I don’t mean to belittle the goodness of such people, but only to say that invoking them in arguments like these is a bit of a red herring. The fact of the matter is that, as the gentleman from Al-Aarabiyah recently admitted, even though most Muslims are not terrorists, most terrorists are Muslims. To put it another way: for several decades now, there has been an organized—loosely, perhaps, but organized, nonetheless—movement of, shall we say, restorationism, in Islam, a movement that has demonstrably produced fruits like Al Quaeda.

Now, this movement may or may not be in harmony with the best of classical, historical Islam. Let’s grant that it isn’t. Even on this supposition, the movement is no less worrying or potentially dangerous—and the fact that it exists is a testimony to the fact that something has gone wrong in the Islamic community today, even if not all, or even not most, Muslims are therefore bad people.

The problem with the Islamic resurgence isn’t the it’s critical of the West. Aren’t Christian conservatives critical of the West, too, at least in certain respects? The problem is rather that the criticism, however legitimate, has in too many cases led to unjust and horrific violence—to terrorism. If there is a “best of Islam,” which I am willing to grant, then shouldn’t an Islamic resurgence have drawn on that, rather than on terroristic ideology, to restore it? And why hasn’t it?

I’m not competent to answer that. I would grant that there are a lot of reasons that don’t have to do with the best of Islam. But it may also be that Islam, even at its best, ultimately doesn’t have the theological resources for dealing with modernity without succumbing either to integralism or secularism. That is a question that we Christians need to face, without fear of being condemned as “intolerant.” But, and this has been my only point, facing this question is different from (pardon the cliche) demonizing Islam as if it could only be 100% wrong or were nothing but a religious pretext for rapine, conquest, and terror.

Adrian

You are very extreme in your beliefs. In your zeal, you cant see than Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths. The Qu’ran recognises Abraham as the first prophet, and Jesus as one also…..which means Muslims believe Allah sent this men. Im not insulted by your anti Muslim slander, as im not a Muslim…..but your theocratical understanding is off.

‘And the Palestinians, after being displaced by fellow Arabs are trying to drive Isreal into the sea.’

This is false. They were displaced from the land when Israel/Palestine failed to be partitioned due to Zionist terrorism, and American influence. Instead the lone state of Israel was created, and so began over 50 years of oppression of the Palestinians. Many Israeli Rabbi’s have called for the ‘justified’ killings of innocent Palestinians.

‘This is at the core of the wahabi orthodoxy.’

Not really…Wahabi is a very specific form of Islamic Fundamentalism. Its not really orthodox either.

‘You omitted Christians.’

I meant to include them also.

‘And yes, the koran does flipflop on the issue of Jews and Christians place in Islamic society as interpreted by radical Mullahs.’

The Qu’ran explicitly states Christians and Jews are people of the book, and should be tolerated. They will apparently be rewarded for this in paradise.

‘One, I didn’t condemn the entire religion.’

Er, yes you did. You called it the spawn of satan, if i remember correctly.

‘Two, because the inquisition has been discredited by modern day Christians. ‘

Ah checkmate. Just like Fundamentalist Terrorism has been discredited by prominent Muslims TODAY. I’ll get some recent quotes addressing Beslan if you want them.

‘It was not until the founding of this country was the notion that the people should have freedom of religion.’

But this didnt exist in reality. Even CATHOLIC’S werent treated equally. Let alone Jews. I doubt many Muslims were in the states at this time.

Wahabism is totally distorted. It actually doesnt relate to the Qu’ran much at all.

And I am indeed glad that your parents didn’t try to behead or beat you up.

Too bad Rushdie and other dissenters are still in hiding. It was at Speaker’s Corner shortly after that fatwa came out, after one young Muslim man’s soapbox rant on an Easter Monday evening, an middle-aged Angelican woman and I must have discussed Rushdie and our various faiths with him till almost midnight. It must have been stimulating for him since he missed his 5th evening prayers. It was then that I realized that jihad wasn’t taking place in some desolate backwards looking far-off land, but was going to be front and center in our communities sooner or later.

Is Islam the Babylonian whore of Revelations? I don’t know and it really doesn’t matter. Some have claimed Rome to be the whore. For all I know, the great antichrist could be cHillary; since whoever it is, the world is supposed to embrace with open arms along with the last great false prophet standing at his/her side as they lead us to Armageddon.

I appreciate your clarification of Khilafah, as that sounds like the “moderate” Muslims that I grew up with. Likewise that permitted the Jews and Christians to live amongst them–provided they didn’t recruit.

But at the rate that extremisim is spreading, it would appear that Sharia is becoming the rule. That’s why after centuries of relative peace, churches and synagouges are being vandalized/destroyed in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere. And the Palestinians, after being displaced by fellow Arabs are trying to drive Isreal into the sea. That’s some sibling rivalry.

You’re misleading when you state that “ I dont think Wahabists would necessarily ‘exterminate’ people for rejecting the faith anyway“. This is at the core of the wahabi orthodoxy.

“The Qu’ran doesnt make contradictions on this issue. It claims Jews and Muslims are people of the book, and should be tolerated and allowed to live in Muslim lands.”

You omitted Christians. And yes, the koran does flipflop on the issue of Jews and Christians place in Islamic society as interpreted by radical Mullahs.

“And why shouldnt i use the Inquisition period? You are perfectly happy to use ‘bastardizations’ of Islam to condemn the entire religion.”

One, I didn’t condemn the entire religion. I’m perfectly happy to co-exist with Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and what have you, even tho I don’t believe that any of them will redemn us in the hereafter, as long as no one is trying to kill each other over it.

Two, because the inquisition has been discredited by modern day Christians. Ditto for “christian nations” going back to Constantine. It was not until the founding of this country was the notion that the people should have freedom of religion. Until then, it was one form of autocratic pseudo-christian dogma vs another (catholic, angelican, hugenots, etc). But for many countries, the allure of power thru religion is strong and thusly bastardized, to wit “christian” Serbia.

The Bible does NOT include nationalism, or much of the stuff that goes on in so-called christian nations so I don’t at all support supposed christian countries. Let me straighten out this, I don’t defend christian countries….only Christianity from misconceptions as a whole.

Bottomline, although Islam evolved over the ages, Wahabis are trying to force a return to Mohammedan dogma by the edge of the sword and by any means necessary, hence the widespread support for Osama and his friends. I for one, support knocking that demon back into the 8th century.

Adrian – I LOVE your explanation. It’s so amazing to see in hindsight how the Lord was present for us through it all. Humanity was like a roomful of toddlers who needed Dad to step in and lay down the law. No biting, no hitting, no screaming, or I turn you all into salt! Thank you for expanding on the whole OT/NT issue.

The book was called “Stones of My Accusers” and was a fictional account of a prostitute during the time of Jesus that included much discussion among Jews and Jesus’ followers of the time. I think her biggest challenge was to believe that forgiveness was out there. I enjoyed it far more than I thought I would; it’s by Tracy Groot.

Im not sure if you are familiar with the Khilafah or not, but this is the political system basiacally outlined in the Qu’ran. It does NOT include nationalism, or much of the stuff that goes on in Saudi Arabia so i dont at all support supposed Islamic countries. Let me straighten out this, i dont defend Muslim countries….only Islam from misconceptions as a whole.

‘As far as I know, he has never been back home. Similar stories abound and that’s just the moderate type. Pretty much the only type that don’t “care” one way or another would be the liberal/secular Muslim communities.’

I certainly wasnt raised in a secular manner. I was a practising Muslim, that attended the Mosque frequently and mingled with many other Muslims. My parents obviously tried to argue against my decision, but they certainly didnt behead me or beat me up.

‘Would it be safe to assume that your family weren’t wahabist otherwise, they’d terminate you for rejecting the faith?’

My parents are Sunni, but not Wahabist. Wahabism is fundamentalism that was founded in the 18th century. Wahabism and Islam do not go hand in hand. I dont think
Wahabists would necessarily ‘exterminate’ people for rejecting the faith anyway.

‘Quite frankly, I believe that Islam is the spawn of Satan.’

—Removed by Admin—

‘Hence the contraditions within the koran claiming that Jews, Christians and Muslims are all people of the Book to suck in the gullible on one hand and when that doesn’t work, the exhortation to convert all resisters, including the Jews and Christians to allah (Satan) by the sword. ‘

The Qu’ran doesnt make contradictions on this issue. It claims Jews and Muslims are people of the book, and should be tolerated and allowed to live in Muslim lands. If you want to talk about hypocrisy and contradictions, maybe you should consider what Christian countries did to non Christians. Oh and by the way, Allah just means God. So in effect, you are calling God Satan. And the Old Testament advocated death to people who condemned God, practised sorcery, had sex before marriage etc etc etc…..

‘Personally, I find it problematic with any religion, or for that matter political/social construct, that demands blind obedience as opposed to membership by free will.’

Thats ridiculous, since many Christian countries as well as other religions have required exactly what you condemn. And why shouldnt i use the Inquisition period? You are perfectly happy to use ‘bastardizations’ of Islam to condemn the entire religion.

My experience is that Islam as practiced and exported by the Saudis do not tolerate conversion away from the faith.

Other denominations of Islam (particularily sub-Saharan African & Asian countries) that were/are tolerant and practice the “religion of peace” as pertains to co-existing with other faiths during the last century are slowly being strangled and radicalized by the wahabists “missionaries” to the point that I read somewhere that almost 3/4 of the mosques outside of the ME are now of the wahabi denomination.

Way back in early 70s, my family knew a young man who had converted to Christianity while away at school. When he returned home to visit his “moderate” family and village, his family didn’t kill him, but they sure beat the crap out of him.

As far as I know, he has never been back home. Similar stories abound and that’s just the moderate type. Pretty much the only type that don’t “care” one way or another would be the liberal/secular Muslim communities.

Would it be safe to assume that your family weren’t wahabist otherwise, they’d terminate you for rejecting the faith?

Unless Muslims as a whole experience some sort of reformation/enlightenment and beat back the 8th century radicals, it would be just a matter of time before most believers can be painted with the same Mohammedanism stroke.

Quite frankly, I believe that Islam is the spawn of Satan. A bastardized attempt to shift Jehovah’s promise to Abraham for Issac to Ishmael. That’s the tragedy of Sarah’s disbelief in God’s promise which will still reverbrate to the end of time.

Hence the contraditions within the koran claiming that Jews, Christians and Muslims are all people of the Book to suck in the gullible on one hand and when that doesn’t work, the exhortation to convert all resisters, including the Jews and Christians to allah (Satan) by the sword.

This is something that was never promoted by the Old & New Testaments, rather a separation from the rest of the world.

Personally, I find it problematic with any religion, or for that matter political/social construct, that demands blind obedience as opposed to membership by free will. And don’t bother throwing in the canard about inquisition period, since that too is a bastardization of Christianity by those who came after the Book was written.

For what it’s worth, ya’ll should check out Larry Abraham’s “The Clash of Civilizations and the Great Caliphate” about the 3rd great jihad. Just google the title.

Not Muslim Blogs, but i post on lefty blogs, and message boards…mostly Ezboard Axis of Justice and Nearly Famous. Im not here to preach or change peoples political dogmas or whatever. Mostly just to try and correct misconceptions about Islam.

Another thought: as Paul says in Galatians, the Law was our pedagogue—our tutor while we were still children not yet mature. Irenaeus, one of the early Church Fathers, made a lot of this idea: God prepares the world for the coming of his Son in stages. This could shed some light on the “harsher” aspects of the Mosaic law. My hunch, in other words, is that, if you compared these “harsher” aspects of Moses’ law with how people had behaved before thatlaw was given, you’d find that these “harsher” aspects are either (a) already a first step towards limiting human ferocity(for example: an eye is to be given for an eye—and not a whole life) or (b) a first step towards making people aware of the evil of certain actions (for example, homosexual sex). Looked at from this point of view, the “harshness” or violence wouldn’t show that the God of the O.T. is unmerciful, but, rather, that he is beginning to hae mercy on the human race—but that he has to be tough at the beginning because he’s dealing with some rough customers who aren’t used to his ways. The violence of certain aspects of the Mosaic law was appropriate to the state of those who first received it—who were absolute beginners, so to speak,and so needed to be shaken up. At the same time, God destined this “violence,” along with the whole Law, to be “interiorized” through the gift of the Spirit that would be poured out after Jesus’ death and Resurrection. God says to Moses that the Law is given for ever—and it is, only the “mode” in which it exists and applies after Christ is now different, has become “spiritual” in the Pauline sense. The fruit of the “violence” in the O.T. was Mary, and Joseph, and Anna, and Simeon: God’s “poor” who had been prepared by long suffering to receive the Word of God as he was becoming incarnate and entering the world for them and for us.
I haven’t read the book you mention but it sounds interesting.
Cheers.

Xenophobe. Do you hate foreigners? If you think every American citizen supports Bush, then you are deluded.

‘And with your kind of “punk”(observed by another commentor) attitude, maybe you should rethink about becoming an American citizen in the next 4 years until 2008 or beyond when liberals grow up and earn the “fit” to be at the helm of the country you are trying to citizen yourself into.’

Nah. Id LOVE to be a citizen, just to make right wing xenophobes like you fume. What you are in essence saying is…you dont think i have any right to be an American because of my liberal left wing beliefs. Maybe staunch Conservatives should grow up and realise their country is built upon ever changing liberal thinking.

‘I do not know which makes a man more conservative — to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past.’

- John Maynard Keynes

‘Another wonder, why have you left Great Britian for United States?’

I currently live at UCS Santa Barbara. My University course back home in England requires living and studying for at least 8 months in the USA/Canada. I naturally chose America The US government is surprising good with visas (I think they like Brits) and ive actually been encouraged to seek a job when i get my degree. US employers LOVE British university degrees.

‘You probably like other aspects of our country other than our President. That’s safe to assume right?’

Of course. America is a fantastic country, with great, usually friendly people.

‘But I wonder why not become a French citizen. Wouldn’t it suit you a lot better? ‘

France actually has quite a prominent right wing nationalist country. I wouldnt wanna live in France if you paid me. And yes i have been there. Just because im left wing doesnt mean i wanna live in France.

‘It just strikes a nerve with me when someone tries to use the Old Testament against Christians.’

My point proven. I deliberatly blew the Bible out of all proportion……JUST like people here do to the Qu’ran, and Islam in general. Not cool is it?

How come Islam is at the root of every conflict going on in the world today?

If you scratch any terrorist, you find a mohammedian underneath?

Did anyone here pick up that Canada is going to start using Sharia law to ajudicate some court cases. they need to get a grip on separation of church and state right quick or you ladies in Canada will all be in burkas soon. Gads. The intel was in yesterdays Slate ezine.

BTW, I just read a fabulous book that posits that the true miracle was not Christ telling the Jewish leaders not to stone Mary, it was that they listened to Him. I’ve been blown away by that for a few weeks now.