The Burden Of Acting White

by La Shawn on October 5, 2004

in Education, Race Preferences

bookThrough a link on BlackElectorate.com, I found a recent study conducted by Duke University called “Breeding Animosity: The ‘Burden Of Acting White’ and Other Problems of Status Group Hierarchies in Schools.” (PDF)

(Update (10/7): The study is no longer available online. You have to e-mail one of the authors to receive a copy. Why, I don’t know.)

The study is based on an earlier one conducted by Signithia Fordham and John Ogbu in the 1980s, which hypothesized that black students viewed high academic achievement as “acting white”, which is perceived to be a negative quality.

I printed it out and haven’t read it, but listed in the abstract (also PDF) are a few findings. The researchers found a “general sentiment against high academic achievement” among kids in North Carolina (where the study was conducted), regardless of race.

They found limited evidence of “racialized peer pressure against academic achievement in the high school level.” They claim the peer pressure is most likely to occur where blacks are “grossly underrepresented in the most demanding courses”, such as Advanced Placement classes.

Karolyn Tyson, William Darity, Jr., and Domini Catellino concluded: “The burden of ‘acting white’ does constitute a problem for some black adolescents….However, the problem is not one of culture as the original theory [Ogbu's] implied, but one of status group inequality in schools.”

Let me state my bias up front, as if people don’t already know. I believe the problem is cultural, and the sooner we admit that, the sooner we can find solutions to the problem. Therefore, I disagree with the study’s conclusion. But I will read it, all 76 pages, and blog about it. In fact, I’ll probably write a column. Newspaper editors like op-eds that summarize controversial studies.

Part of my bias stems from my own experience in school. I grew up in a tiny, insignificant part of the world in a small town in South Carolina. In the government-run (sounds more descriptive than public) schools I attended, I saw firsthand the “burden of acting white.”

I was a lazy student, myself, so I wasn’t one of the black kids taunted for being high achievers. Academic achievement wasn’t encouraged (nor discouraged) or even expected in my home. If it happened, great, as was the case with my youngest sister. But I wasn’t afraid to bring home C’s, as many high-achieving students were.

I suspect the researchers of the new report set out to specifically refute Ogbu’s hypothesis rather than merely “test” it, as they claim, which is OK as long as they’re not pretending to be objective. I’ll try to keep an open mind as I read it.

Many people have written about the phenomenon of “anti-intellectualism” among black students, including John McWhorter in Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America. From a review at THBookService.com:

The black community itself, he [John McWhorter] says, is the main obstacle to achieving the full integration sought by our nation’s civil rights leaders. As the black culture has become addicted to “underdoggism,” a prevailing attitude of victimhood has led to a lack of effort and eventual failure. Even criminology gets a tacit stamp of approval because it is “understandable.” McWhorter’s boldness doesn’t stop there. Some of the ideas sure to ignite controversy:

— Why it is untrue that unequal distribution of resources has led to the notorious lag in black students’ grades and test scores: McWhorter unabashedly provides the real reason behind poor academic performance

— How basic facts speak against the black conviction that conditions have not changed dramatically for their population (statistics simply don’t back them up)

— Why the roots of victimology can be traced to the forced desegregation of the United States in the 1960s

— Remember the controversy over the word “niggardly”? David Howard, a white ombudsman to the newly elected mayor of Washington, D.C. used the word in its rightful context — it means “stingy” — yet Howard lost his job…McWhorter’s take on the whole matter is piercingly insightful

— How a distrust of their former white oppressors has led blacks to a pervasive mindset against intellectualism

— Why it is reasonable for police officers to stop more young black males than any other type of person — without being racist at all

— The anti-Americanism spawned by black separatism, carefully analyzed and dissected by McWhorter: how separatism encourages black Americans to conceive of black people as an unofficial “sovereign” entity, immune from the same rules as other Americans

— How the grip of “victimology” encourages black Americans from birth to fixate upon the remnants of racism, and actually downplay the obvious signs of its demise; the grievous results of the sentiment that racism lurks in every corner

— Suggestions for getting back on the track that civil rights leaders set us upon, so that black Americans can at last experience true equality in the only country that will ever be their home

I highly recommend this book, as well as Authentically Black. One of the themes of the book is that being “authentically black” means keeping whites “on the hook.” If you don’t, you’re not. Buy the book or check it out if you don’t understand what I mean.

Stay tuned for my assessment of the new study…

Addendum: Near the end of the abstract is this interesting bit of information: “Future studies will report on our findings concerning the process that lead to black student under-representation in more challenging curricula.” I’ll save my commentary for another day.

***

Interesting links:

Reviews of Losing the Race and Authentically Black by Dutch Martin, and Acting Bright by Joanne Jacobs.

Update (12/13/04): Welcome, new visitors! I had a chance to read Paul Tough’s article in the New York Times Magazine, which is why many of you are here, I assume. Please see this updated post, where I welcome your comments.

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{ 65 comments }

Inoperable Terran 10.05.04 at 7:52 pm

LaShawn notes a new study that tries to deflect the blame for poor academic achievement among blacks. [...]

Phil Dillon 10.05.04 at 1:57 pm

La Shawn

i agree with you that this is a cultural problem.

I got my high school diploma (1960) at a time when there were much higher expectations for teenagers. Aacademic achievement was something to be proud of.

The same high standards were expected of me when i did my undergraduate work (1975) and my graduate work (1980).

I was expecting the same thing when I enrolled in a class here at Emporia State, just for fun. I was amazed at how lax everything was. I got bad enough that i spoke to the professor about how little he was expecting of the students and how he was doing the a disservice by doing so. His response was that he had to be “fair” to everyone.

The net effect of what he and, as I understand it, many of the professors are doing is to dumb everyone down.

I can say that there is very little learning going on in many of our academic institutions.

It’s a shame.

Avery 10.05.04 at 2:06 pm

I looked at that…I need to look at it too. For some reason, the methodology seems suspect to me. Could just be that it’s counterintuitive for me because of my own personal experiences, but it deserves looking into.

Only thing is, it is cultural, the question is whether it’s black culture or North Carolina culture that’s being indicted in the study.

LB 10.05.04 at 2:10 pm

Exactly, Avery: is it black culture or southern culture or NC culture? As blacks, we both know something is funny about some of the conclusions, as I indicated in the post. I stessed my “small town” roots just to emphasize I am not an authority; I’m only one person with an opinion, a person happened to grow up seeing and hearing the taunts.

Eric 10.05.04 at 3:21 pm

I think it’s culture. I have witnessed white students get harrassed for being high achievers. The disapproval of academic success manifest itself differently between the races. Whites get called nerd and blacks are accused of acting white.

Jeff the Baptist 10.05.04 at 3:27 pm

Devils advocate here, just because its cultural does not mean that other factors didn’t encourage this cultural bias. It can be both.

Didn’t Chris Rock have a comedy routine that included this? I think it was part of his N-word routine.

Jeff Thoman 10.05.04 at 3:45 pm

This subject bothers me a lot because we need all our citizens. I would like to add that I think there is a great deal of politics here as some Black leaders see their power base eroding and therefore preach victimization louder than ever to try to hold on to their base. What it is difficult for me to figure out (white guy ) is why the underachievement decision is made. Everyone has access to a TV and can move about the country and see what can be attained.

meep 10.05.04 at 4:06 pm

I grew up in the South, and ended up at the premier nerd school of NC: The North Carolina School of Science and Math. The authors might do well to go to NCSSM, to see if there’s any racial stigma to achievement there. There is a quota system there, but it’s by congressional district (the school draws from the entire state) – and it’s tougher to get into than UNC-Chapel Hill or NCSU, as only 270 or so students are admitted each year. I have no idea what the end results would be, but let me tell you, high achievement wasn’t the stigma it usually is in regular schools.

And let me tell you, for the half year I was in a “regular” NC high school in one of the richest areas in the state (North Raleigh), I was majorly unimpressed with the attitude of the kids towards education. Everyone was aghast in French class that I had been taught to speak French with a French-sounding accent (as opposed to a Southern accent… it’s not that tough, really) – and forget about calculus. I was the only non-senior in the class, and the second semester I was very much disliked as I actually did my work and studied, while everybody else slacked off and barely passed (they slacked the moment they got their acceptances from Chapel Hill or State). These were all white kids. But then, I suppose a sophomore girl isn’t supposed to actually, you know, be into this stuff and really pay attention and =learn=. My lord, high school is for hooking-up and wasting time til you get to go to college and =really= party….

Frank Zavisca 10.05.04 at 4:10 pm

As a scientist myself, I can tell from the abstract that the authors haved a chip on their shoulders – they just don’t want to believe Prof Ogbu and they just have to find an outside – not an inside – cause of “exclusion”.

In fact, I can tell you any number of stories that Black students have harassed and even physically assaulted both Black and White students for “acting White” – doing well in school.

This is a real problem – Prof Ogbu and many others have witnessed it first hand and said so – so a “focus group” will not disprove it.

Concerning “exclusion” – this is NOT the case – at Lubbock High in Lubbock TX the school actually tried to recruit able minority students to advanced placement programs – many simply did not sign up – Why? Do you need to ask?

Faheem 10.05.04 at 4:33 pm

I can not wait for your analysis, having read through some of the report myself, I do not think you are capable of refuting the truth it represents, albeit as with most studies including the one done by the late Dr.Ogbu, they are done using a small sampling of the population and simply thinking that you can extract from that small sampling a prof positive truth about all of Black America is dishonest. I do not read your site often but hopefully Sott will let us know when you have posted your op-ed.

In your spare time you should look into Dr.Ogbu theory on Voluntary and Involuntary Immigrants, it is as interesting as his other writings. Always Remember Dr.Ogbu was ignored for many years by academic elitist until he wrote about this perceived idea of Black anit-intellectialism.

molotov 10.05.04 at 4:45 pm

I grew up in an old-school black home that did not play. I was scared to bring home Cs, and was expected to excel in school (the way it should be). No problems when we lived in the North, because I attended a private school.

When we moved to the South and I started attending public school, I began experiencing “acting white” taunts because I was an academic achiever. I had rocks thrown at me and girls threatening to beat me up for it. Luckily my family kept me on the right path.

The “acting white” phenomenon is a cultural problem, and self-hatred problem. What’s ironic is that it’s a recent problem, from the mid-1960s or so. Talk to older blacks, and this phenomenon is nonexistent. We can thank liberals for this issue, for their victimology rhetoric’s influence on our culture. While I believe that American culture in general is too anti-intellectual for my tastes, it’s taken a particularly brutal turn in too many black households.

Stone 10.05.04 at 4:46 pm

LaShawn, thanks for bringing this up. This will be interesting reading for me, since I was teased all throughout elementary school, and high school for “acting white.”

College was okay, but once I moved to DC it all came back. People were chasing my well dress self down the street talking about “get out of our neighborhood, college boy!” (yes, this has happened on more than one occasion.)

Of course, what really makes me mad is that it is something that is never talked about and almost accepted in the Black community.

Claire 10.05.04 at 4:54 pm

There seems to be a common culture in this country to tear down anyone who ‘gets above themselves’ by excelling academically. It doesn’t matter whether you’re black or white or yellow – the names they call you are different, but the destructive impulse driving them is the same: don’t make me look bad, see, you’re no better than I am. It is driven by laziness and envy, two deadly sins. The more you resist, the more determined their efforts become to bring you down.

La Shawn 10.05.04 at 5:14 pm

Faheem-

I do not think you are capable of refuting the truth it represents, albeit as with most studies including the one done by the late Dr. Ogbu, they are done using a small sampling of the population and simply thinking that you can extract from that small sampling a prof positive truth about all of Black America is dishonest.

That’s quite an ironic statement coming from someone who obviously believes the study and sampling represent a “truth”, whatever that may be. As you yourself contend, the sampling is small, so if anyone is extracting from it something “proof positive”, it’s you and the authors of this study.

Nowhere in my post will you read that I purport or claim to “extract…a proof positive truth” about all of black America. The problem is that such thinking (the authors and others who seek external causes of failure) has dominated the discourse for too long. I’ll give the sampling and the study as much weight as the authors and, apparently, you do. The standard of review is (or should be) the same for us all.

Molotov- McWhorter discusses reasons why the phenomenon is recent. He touches on this but doesn’t say so as graphically as I will – the race-hustlers found a new con and jumped on it. Victimhood was in play, and there’s no way, in my view, to teach pride and self-respect when have someone else buzzing in your ear about what someone else owes you.

Stone, all blacks, and I don’t care who they are, witnessed or were the victim of what you experienced in school. This is a cultural phenomenon that we, if we are honest, should own up to. For various reasons, blacks are reluctant to admit that something is a sub-cultural problem. The point is not what others are or are not doing to us; it is what we are or are not doing to ourselves. That gets lost in the blame-the-white-man game. And that’s exactly how I see it: a game.

angela 10.05.04 at 5:42 pm

Its a shame the standards are so low these days for black youth. Its a cultural issue that has to be addressed for any chage to occur

Enrique Cardova 10.05.04 at 6:46 pm

The study does not refute McWorther, or the orginal data pioneer John Ogbu. If anything it confirms what McWorther and Ogbu were saying, adding some complementary rather than contradictory variants.

The study found a “general sentiment against high academic achievement” among all races and evidence of “racialized peer pressure against academic achievement.” Such peer pressure is most likely to occur where blacks are “grossly underrepresented in the most demanding courses”, such as Advanced Placement classes. So negative peer-pressure against “acting white” is not to blame, but feelings of inferiority when black kids tackle advanced academics and are heavily outnumbered by better performing whites. Many can quibble with the small sample of 125, but the study does not refute Obgu and McWorther. To the contrary, it DID find negative attitudes including peer pressure, and DID find feelings of inferiority vis a vis white students due to “underrepresentation”. Whether these feelings of inferiority are labeled as that OR labeled as peer pressure agaisnt “acting white” it makes little difference. The bottom line is that not enough black students are cutting the mustard.

What the variances with Ogbu suggests is that while there is negativity among all races, such negativity has a worse effect on black youth than whites. It is a variant on Ogbu’s theme, but it confirms the negative attitudes Ogbus said were there. It is a little like some critics describe the rap culture. Whites are playing at it, but get down to business at the end of the day. Many blacks seem though to want to buy into the whole anti-intellectual, clownish package for real, and the negative results are reflected in due time. They can afford this waste of time even LESS than their white counterparts, but the beat goes on.

The study showed negative peer pressure especially strong at the higher academic levels where black students were heavily outnumbered by better performing whites. There were feelings of inferiority that caused an “oppositional culture” to develop. The authors say it is the school situation that caused it (an external factor) while Ogbu, McWorther et al point to the culture (internal factor).

The authors label the outcome “status differences” due to the school environment and black “undrepreresentation.” I think they are skirting on making excuses once again. If “underrepresentation” causes the feelings of inferiority and opposition, then there are only 2 solutions (1) there needs to be a quota of black students in advanced academics to assure the proper “representation” or (2) black students have to work harder and get themselves up to par.

Which is it going to be? By asserting that “underrepresentation” causes the negative oppositional culture (blaming the external) it seems to me that the author’s are implying the need for a quota.

But whatever you want to label it: “acting white” peer pressure, or inferiority feeling caused by “underrepresentation”, the bottom line is that black students are not performing up to par. Quotas will only increase feelings of inferiority. We have been down that road before. The other alternative will do the job, but many do not want to face the hard slog required for that reality. What say you LaShawn?

La Shawn 10.05.04 at 6:51 pm

Go, Enrique! I concur with the quota comment. Until I read the study and comment on it, check out my categories in the sidebar. Click on “Race Preferences” and read some of my views about skin color quotas. Hideous.

I hope you come back and visit again…

James M. Barber 10.05.04 at 7:35 pm

The place and time you graduate has a big influence on your attitudes toward education and of course your fanily. In the fifties, education was seen as the way to suceed financially. It was a long way from Prince George’s County, MD or Montgomery County to Georgetown which is part of DC! There has been dumbing down again in America. Rap stars and professional ball players make more money then regularly educated people. How many ninth graders become professional ball players? (not 1 in a 100)

A woman roughly my age said that because she was poor, teachers expected a lot less of her then her husband. They are about as same black except he lets his hair natural.

Can we make young people think academic rather then “if it feels good, do it”. The internal and external culture both interact on students. It is A or not A. I cannot express myself due to years trying to do math and not write.

Are computer people trying to blame Rather for not understanding” proportional fonts. Tom Brokaw claims bloggers have “jihad against Rather,etc”.

Having lived in Texas in Houston and Austin, it is not black vs white as in the Carolinas. Hispanics felt twenty years ago they were not treated as good as blacks. Lu Brown (PhD) was police chief and then mayor of Houston. Not being able to speak and understand english makes you suspect the police!

JMB

SCSIwuzzy 10.05.04 at 7:36 pm

I wonder how much of this is also economic based.
When I was in classes with mostly blue-collor families of upper lower class incomes or lower middle class incomes, there was a very different attitide than those classes which were populated by kids from the upper middle class or lower upper class backgrounds.
Race in these cases was an afterthought, (my grade school was mostly irish and italian, my highschool was very mixed along ethnic and racial lines); in the lower income groups, anyone trying to exceed in school was “thinking they were better than everyone else”, and in the upper income groups, only the trust-fund type kids got away with slacking.
So, from my limited and unscientific observations, many at the bottom of the economic latter discouraged achievement by others, and at the top they excused a lack of achievement, but in the middle they expected achievment. And these attitudes came from the homes, not the schools (not that the schools did much to counter them).

DarkStar 10.05.04 at 8:43 pm

Here is a link to a study that covered a large range. It’s called “Weighing the Burden of Acting White: Are There Race Differences in Attitudes Toward Education?”

brookings.nap.edu/books/0815746091/html/375.html

McWhorter didn’t know about this study when I called into a talk show and asked him about it.

No linking allowed. You can include the URL but without the “http.” Comments with links are held up for my approval. – Admin

Bucktowndusty 10.05.04 at 8:55 pm

Uncle Tom
by Bucktowndusty (had to share this one)

Uncle Tom
Climbs the rungs
And masters the corporate ladder.

But, all the while
His fellow blacks defile
Black-crackers lacking ghetto swagger.

So, Uncle Tom
Becomes Step-Uncle Tom
Divorcing those fellow blacks.

He no longer mourns
For a community who scorns
Then wonders why he doesn’t come or give back.

Enrique Cardova 10.05.04 at 10:18 pm

SCSIwuzzy I agree with you in part that negativity is economically based, and that those who try to improve their lot are often accused of “thinking they were better than everyone else”. I am glad you bring that out. Negative feelings towards educational performance is a feature of virtually ALL poor groups and even among those well off within them.

It has been referenced in assorted places but maybe it bears repeating that such attitudes were and are common among whites as well. The study after all did find negativity among all groups, and historically, the record of some white groups ain’t nothing to write home about. Thomas Sowell’s “Ethnic America” shows that white Irish culture, as it developed early on in America was not hospitable to good academic performance- being marked in many places by high rates of violence, substance abuse and illegitimacy (50% in some cities like New York). Somewhat like many black urban conditions later on in the latter half of the 20th century.

The Irish lagged in educational and economic performance behind other white ethnic groups (they were the slowest rising) like Jews, Poles and Italians who did not have the advantages of the Irish- such as speaking English, or well developed political organization. Italian Americans in the early days were known for scorning public education, preferring to have their kids out in the workforce earning cash as soon as possible. By the way Asians seem to kick everybody’s butts academically, whites included. The bottom line is that these educational attitudes/patterns are not unique to blacks, and of course they are no excuse not to do better.

Mention the words “school performance” these days and you would expect to find you-know-which-group at the bottom. But it was not always so according to Sowell’s “Black Education” “Affirmative Action,” and “Race and Intellgence” and other of his books.

The original all-black Dunbar High School in Washington DC for example, for decades prior to its decline in the 1960s, produced performances equal to or above that of surrounding white schools. In New York during the 1940s several black schools were well in the running with performances sometimes a little above white schools and sometimes a little below, but never miles behind the way they are today. As far back as World War I, black soldiers from the North, places like New York, Illinois, Ohio etc, scored HIGHER, on mental tests than white soldiers from southern regions like Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky, and Mississippi.

Sorry for all the verbiage but what all this may suggest is:

(1) Negative news regarding black education may appear but folks should not be too quick to point the finger at blacks as hopeless. In fact history suggests quite the opposite, showing a record of remarkable achievement in the face of bitter opposition and barriers unlike that faced by any other group. And the record of white groups most similar to blacks (like the Irish) also shows a pattern of similar negatives. But there was change for the better. We need that can do attitude among urban students.

(2)Blacks don’t need any special treatment over and above the programs open to all Americans like the GI Bill or student loans, etc. The black achievements mentioned above, go back as far as World War II, a time of harsh discrimination, hostility and societal indifference. Of course this may not be a message people want to hear.

(3) Black conservatives have been saying things similar to the above for a long time, going back to Booker T. That is why LaShawn’s blog is so valuable, it links the past to the future and IMHO, rescues black credibility and pride from the standard liberal vision of blacks as incompetent or childlike victims or basket-cases in need of patronizing or special preferences. It also restores black control over that credibility, a credibility than is constantly being used as a stalking-horse or front-man to fulfill the agendas of other people (gays, leftists, white feminists, take your pick).

Too often you see people shaking their heads about “those people” (blacks) who “can’t pull themselves up by their bootstraps.” This is the poisonous tag that the liberal vision has saddled blacks with. But it is false. Thomas Sowell might be worth quoting here:


“A far higher proportion of blacks in poverty rose out of poverty in the 20 years between 1940 and 1960 — that is, before any major federal civil rights legislation — than in the more than 40 years since then. This trend continued in the 1960s, at a slower pace. The decade of the 1970s — the first affirmative action decade — saw virtually no change in the poverty rate among blacks. In other words, most blacks lifted themselves out of poverty but liberal politicians and black “leaders” have claimed credit. One side effect is that many whites wonder why blacks cannot lift themselves out of poverty like other groups, when that is in fact what most blacks have done..”

It is this kind of credibility that conservatives like LaShawn are restoring, and highlighting.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
PS:
Thanks LaShawn I will check out that sidebar.
Keep up the good work.

triticale 10.05.04 at 11:01 pm

As a white resident of Milwaukee’s rather integrated West End, I have heard my neighbors complaining, as parents and teachers, of the notion that doing well in school is “acting white”. My immediate reaction was that anyone who would spread such a meme is a white supremacist, or doing their work for them.

Enrique Cardova 10.06.04 at 12:03 am

The study has a long way to go before it can refute McWorther, Ogbu et al.

At first blush the contention that feelings of inferiority are caused by “underrepresentation” in advanced classes where whites dominate may seem to put the blame on external factors, and thus kill the McWorther/Ogbu cultural approach. But this assertion by the authors is hardly proof that their explanation is correct, nor does it refute McWorther/Ogbu.

To begin with, the study DID find limited evidence of “acting white” among black student peers. IT WAS MORE LIKELY TO SHOW UP, where said students were in tough classes where they were heavily outnumbered by whites, but it was definitely there. So right off the bat there is limited confirmation of Ogbu/MCWorther.

Now let’s look at where this negativity was most likely to appear- that is- the advanced classes with a lot of white people. The study asserts on page 3 that too few blacks in those classes leads to the toxic “acting white”. I quote the study “Black students viewed those classes as legitimately the property of white students; they are overwhelmingly excluded.” According to this study then the problem is “too many white people”. But is it really that simple? In fact, the very opposite could be argued. It is not “too many white people” ( an external factor) that causes the black kids to go negative and feel inferior, but a cultural mindset that throws in the towel, and refuses to meet the challenge of hard academic work. They are crapping out by saying the advanced classes are “the property” of whites. See page 3. If that is not a cultural mindset against success what is?

Proof of cultural factors can be seen in the historical tensions between Black Americans and Black West Indians, with the latter considering their American counterparts to be unmotivated, and the Americans considering the West Indians to be too pushy and aggressive. See Sowell’s “Ethnic America” and Ivan Light’s “Ethnic Enterprise” for just such a discussion of different mindsets. Proof of cultural factors can also be seen in the response of other minorities like Asians to these challenges. Further proof of cultural mindsets is given by looking at how black students budget their time. Black kids spend a lot more time on the idiot tube than on the books, sometimes 6 or more hours per day. Other groups waste a lot less time here. See: http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/97trends/sd1-5.htm

What is sad is that the black kids are not saying “let me buckle down and raise my game” but seem to be withdrawing from the stuggle, throwing in the towel and ridiculing their peers for trying too hard, or “acting white” if you will, conceding the game as “belonging” to whites. That is the real poison, that attitude, not “too many white people”. Isn’t this the same “victim” mindset LaShawn comments on time and time again?

Enrique Cardova 10.06.04 at 12:07 am

Interestingly enough, the study is contradicted by evidence offered by Dark Star as to the Educational Longditudinal Survey. In that survery, no real oppositional attitudes were found among high school students in advanced placement classes. But here, the authors find evidence of such, and the Longitudinal Survey drew from a much bigger sample. And Dark Star’s Survey does not compare apples to apples. It surveyed students and found equal nagativity, but didn’t go on to match up attitudes to ACTUAL SCHOOL PERFORMANCE on standardized tests like the national NAEP batteries, comparing what students SAID with what they actually DID. That’s the bottom line. It is all to easy on a survey to indicate “good” attitudes about “education” but PROOF is in actual performance.

Now we all know that the sad state of black families plays a great role in this. Asians and Black West Indians for example will tend to have a set of hard-nosed parents demanding performance to a much greater extent than native blacks, where over 50% of the children are born out of wedlock. The family situation and its attendant poverty is itself part of the cultural element Ogbu/McWorther speaks about.

Black conservatives again and again urge action on these internal, cultural factors, but many do not seem to want such a blunt message. Such studies as the one here of course proceed with a very small sample size etc, etc so they could be attacked on methodological grounds. But logically as well they may be suspect.

Idler 10.06.04 at 12:47 am

Enrique, marvelous posts.

Haven’t read the study, so I’m not completely familiar with the findings, but it appears one of the premises is that “underrepresentation” impacts negatively on academic achievement. What is the standard that signifies underrepresentation? At what point is there sufficient representation, etc.? Perhaps the study establishes some sort of criteria here?

That said, how does this premise square with the academic achievement of Asians in schools? I would presume that they are “underrepresented” to a greater degree than Black kids (as Blacks are the minority with the greatest percentage of the population in the US)- why then does their performance not suffer?

Elizabeth B 10.06.04 at 2:36 am

I agree with Claire. My high school had about 27% asian students 23% black students, 1% American Indian, 49% white. While many of the asian students got pressure from home to do well, the general atmosphere in school from peer pressure was to knock down those who were doing well academically, calling them Geeks. However, as Thomas Sowell and the Thurnstroms (in their book, No Excuses) have noted, the cultural pressure against academic achievement may be higher for black students and less for asian students.

I think this might be changing somewhat for the next generation, I don’t know. I’ve heard lots of people encouraging their kids that Bill Gates was a geek and look where it got him.

They are right. Academic success is correlated with economic success, especially when it comes to reading ability: adults reading at the highest literacy level average $21.45/hr, those in the next highest $17.75/hr, but adults reading at the lowest level average $8.90/hr. Only 3% of Americans read at the highest literacy level, level 5, and only 16% read at the next highest literacy level, level 4. The percentages are even more dismal for minorities. You can see the graphs and read more about the solution, phonics, at my web site, the phonics page, linked below.

DarkStar 10.06.04 at 9:00 am

It surveyed students and found equal nagativity, but didn’t go on to match up attitudes to ACTUAL SCHOOL PERFORMANCE on standardized tests like the national NAEP batteries, comparing what students SAID with what they actually DID.

That’s an interesting spin on it. The study addressed your point when it stated that Blacks seem no more likely to overestimate the time spent on home work. Then it gave a foot note.

But if people are saying that the charge of “acting white” is happening as much as is stated, then why are the Black students who are doing well, given respect and why do they agree that they are given respect?

Part of the study that pointed out that, once socio-economic status is taken into account, Black parents are as involved as white parents. No comment on that one?

How about the point that the entire study takes into account socio-economic status?

Dutch Martin 10.06.04 at 12:42 pm

La Shawn,

Thanks for plugging my book reviews. I agree that the problem of anti-intellectualism in the black community is indeed a CULTURAL problem. McWhorter examined this in detail in LOSING THE RACE. Lord knows I have my own horror stories of being ridiculed for being a “bookworm” (and a DARK-SKINNED one at that, but that’s another topic for another day) throughout my K-12 years. Although I’m sure it exists among white students, the problem is much more pervasive among blacks. Taken to extreme, black students who do well in school are often subjected to vicious ostracism and outright violence.

The sooner we as black folks can purge our culture of this insidious anti-intellectual strain, the better.

ralph phelan 10.06.04 at 2:34 pm

“The researchers found a “general sentiment against high academic achievement” among kids in North Carolina, regardless of race.”

But that doesn’t end the discussion. As an academically successful white kid I can attest that the “general sentiment against high academic achievement” can be also be found in Nassau Couunty, NY.

But while I got called “nerd” and “geek” and other hurtful things, I was never accussed of beinng a traitor to my race. I would expect that adding that into the mix gives black kids a stronger disincentive to success than white kids ever experience.

molotov 10.06.04 at 3:32 pm

DarkStar,

I did very well in school (took AP and honors courses) and got no respect from other blacks – except those few who were already in class with me. Same goes for my cousin, who was in a baccalaureate program. Both of us were accused of being “race traitors simply because we excelled in school. Luckily for us, my grandmother – who has a Master’s Degree in Black Studies – and other relatives countered this stupidity and envy with positive black cultural references.

Lester Spence 10.06.04 at 8:09 pm

A couple of points:

1. Ogbu doesn’t have a “method.” In his original study he visited schools and talked to students without a method of choosing students nor a method of choosing schools. He had no comparison site–which is crucial for reasons I note below.

2. McWhorter doesn’t have a “method.” In his work, which he acknowledged was for popular audiences, he gave a few anecdotes about poorly performing black students in his class.

3. The Duke study DOES have a method. A method of selecting students. A method of comparing them. A method of coming up with objective measures that would either prove or disprove their hypotheses.

There is neither merit, standards, nor objectivity in the research of Ogbu. There is neither merit, standards, nor objectivity in the thoughtpiece of McWhorter.

A couple of final points on culture. To argue that black academic problems are cultural problems we first have to know whether the same dynamic is at work in other communities. As white America is largely anti-intellectual I don’t know how we can ignore this. Unless (and this is my final point) we are predisposed to believe that black culture (and people) are culturally inferior.

This position is distasteful to me. Not to mention wrong.

DarkStar 10.06.04 at 8:22 pm

I did very well in school (took AP and honors courses) and got no respect from other blacks – except those few who were already in class with me.

Except for those who were already doing poorly, I got respect. In Jr. High I was “tracked” in the high achieving class. The other classes treated us fine. In high school, I was in the advanced college prep track.

Same goes for my cousin, who was in a baccalaureate program.

My daughter took many IB classes in high school. When she graduated last year, the graduating class gave the best cheers for those who graduated from the IB track. The school is about 90% Black with about 85% of the students receiving subsidized lunches. She was respected and encouraged others who weren’t putting in the time, to do well.

Lester Spence’s comments should be taken seriously.

La Shawn 10.06.04 at 8:32 pm

Quite a few comments should be taken seriously.

Enrique Cardova 10.06.04 at 10:41 pm

Lester you speak of methods, but the Duke study is lacking in both methods and logic. The small sample size of 125 students among other things does not help its credibility. It is also contradicted by the Educational Longitudinal Survey Dark Star mentions as shown above. So right there on 2 counts, your “methods” claim is wanting. But even giving you the benefit of the doubt, and taking the study at face value, the research DID find evidence of racialized peer pressure, just as McWorther and Ogbu contended all along. On page 49, for example, you see black students complain that they are being dogged for “acting white”.
precisely the same thing McWorther/Ogbu found with their supposedly “missing” methods.

You say the same negative dynamic has to be discovered first in other non-black communities. In fact such dynamics have long been observed elsewhere. The example of the white Irish and Italian Americans are given above, but research on such dynamics is over half a century old. The point is not whether some white people had these problems before blacks. The point is why the hell are black kids throwing in the towel and giving up as this study suggests?

Essentially this study blames external factors, like putting ability tracking or putting students into advanced classes, where whites are heavily “overrepresented”, as the reason for the “status group hierarchies”. These “hierarchies”supposedly lead to negative peer pressure against achievement. We have already seen the methodological problems, but even on logical grounds this reasoning is suspect. The evidence offered is student surveys showing even higher negativity in advanced classes with a lot of white people. This is very weak ground indeed. There are numerous mostly black schools (without a lot of white people) across America where there is no ability tracking, and the oppositional culture appears there as well in even WORSE form- from general disrespect for learning to physical attacks against teachers. See Sowell’s “Inside American Education”. Blaming ability tracking or “too many white people” are convenient ways of avoiding many hard questions on black school performance, such as why black kids are spending so much time on the idiot box compared to other groups. See: h t t p://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/97trends/sd1-5.htm

As for any predisposition viewing blacks as inferior, this is nonsense. Blacks of all stripes, from Cosby to ordinary fathers and mothers are in fact incensed at the waste of time on going on with black kids in schools. They KNOW black kids can do better, rather than crapping out and giving up. And they know the schools can do better, rather than wasting yet more precious time with BS “progressive” education and “self esteem”. That is one reason polls show a majority of blacks support vouchers, despite the opposition and blusterings of their “leaders”.

DarkStar 10.06.04 at 10:49 pm

It is also contradicted by the Educational Longitudinal Survey Dark Star mentions as shown above.

I don’t see how. They seem complementary.

DarkStar 10.06.04 at 10:54 pm

Too quick.

In that survery, no real oppositional attitudes were found among high school students in advanced placement classes. But here, the authors find evidence of such, and the Longitudinal Survey drew from a much bigger sample.

In the study I presented, the oppositional attitudes were in line with those of whites, which is what the study Lester presented reflected.

I have some code-slinging to perform.

triticale 10.06.04 at 11:32 pm

Even if one chooses to dismiss the Ogbu and McWorther studies, and my overhearing of neighbor discussions, as merely anecdotal, there is clearly reason to acknowledge that that some black students in some educational environments are being discouraged from improving themselves by an anti-intellectualism which is in part white supremicism. One need not quantify this in order to see the need to counter it.

Enrique Cardova 10.06.04 at 11:48 pm

Darkstar, I have no problem with pointing to the socio-economic factors. They play a part to be sure, and as noted previously, other white groups like the Irish, are not exactly “role models” in this area, given their problems like high rates of illegitimacy, substance abuse, violence and poor school performance. Economic status also plays a part. Poor white Irish kids had the same educational problems as poor black kids. My problem is the notion of the Duke study that “underprepresentation” is responsible for the negative attitudes. As detailed above, both the methodology and logic are unconvincing. And furthermore the Duke study is contradicted by the Educational Longtidunal Survey you mention. The survey found little “acting white” opposition among blacks at advanced levels, undermining one of the planks of the Duke research, and noted that where black kids were at the highest percentile, and had good attitudes, things like dropout rates were not that much different from others.

You had mentioned socio- economic factors and the Survey did suggest that when family income was taken into account there was not much difference from whites in such things as cutting classes, parent participation, and absenteeism. In other words, where the black kids were making some effort and behaving well, or where the kids were from more middle class backgrounds (hence having more middle class attitudes), some good things happened. The Survey did not match up attitudes (the nice things people may say) with standardized achievement test scores, (a crucial measure of performance showing what people have actually done). Without this it cannot bury Ogbu/MacWorther who referenced such achievement scores as a crucial linchpin in their argument that black kids are not achieving as they should.

Lower dropout rates and a gold star for good attendance are nice, but having black kids graduating high school while reading at the 8th grade level is not a good thing. Schools can always “graduate” a lot of students- but what kind of quality are they turning out? The dismal scores indicated by standardized tests suggest that the quality is very unsatisfactory. Also troubling is the level of effort being put forth by black students as this study AND Ogbu/MCWorther suggests. If they are throwing in the towel because some white people show up, we are in deep trouble. If black kids are watching more TV than other groups rather than hitting the books we are in deep trouble. We need to kick it up to the next level, and get solid performance on Math, Science and English. I do not totally blame blacks. It seems clear that the schools are not doing the hard-nosed job that needs to be done. Hence black parents support vouchers in large numbers. They are frustrated. Ironically, the school bureaucrats now have a convenient excuse for the BS education being served black kids- “these people won’t make the effort.” I say we have had enough excuses all around.

Enrique Cardova 10.07.04 at 12:28 am

“Even if one chooses to dismiss the Ogbu and McWorther studies, and my overhearing of neighbor discussions, as merely anecdotal, there is clearly reason to acknowledge that that some black students in some educational environments are being discouraged from improving themselves by an anti-intellectualism which is in part white supremicism. One need not quantify this in order to see the need to counter it…”
comment by triticale
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Triticale, the Duke study as detailed above CONFIRMS what Ogbu/McWorther have been saying. As for discouragement, I have no doubt that SOME black students, SOMEWHERE are discouraged by white supremacism. But how significant is white supremacism as a factor? Anything can be a factor, the question is how much weight does it have? YOu need to provide some data to back up what you claim. How so? Give some concrete examples. If anything the dismal record of many mostly black schools (like Washington DC,) with mostly black teachers, and with very high per capita spending shows that “white supremacism” may not carry much weight at all.

Again, how easy it is to blame external factors like “white racism” – the standard mantra. Racists there are aplenty, laughing in glee at black troubles, but I suggest these folks are a minor part of the problem. When you have black kids watching 6 or more hours of TV per day, or refusing to put up an effort, or thowing in the towel because some white people were on the scene, the standard mantras become very unconvincing. History shows better black performance in much more difficult circumstances than in many places today. See other posts above.

>>>
The original all-black Dunbar High School in Washington DC for example, for decades prior to its decline in the 1960s, produced performances equal to or above that or surrounding white schools. In New York during the 1940s several black schools were well in the running with performances sometimes a little above white schools and sometimes below, but never miles behind the way they are today. As far back as WW I, black soldiers from the North, places like New York, Illinois, Ohio etc, scored HIGHER on mental tests than white soldiers from southern regions like Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky, and Mississippi.
>>>

Black folks got the job done in these places, taking advantage of the opportunities on the ground. We can do likewise again.

No black basketball team, even a “street” ball team, would throw in the towel and quit the court because some white people showed up. If anything, they would only be too happy to take their opponents on. We need the same aggressive, hard-nosed approach in the classroom. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. I really don’t care if some Asian dude makes a 90% on the test. More power to him. What I care about is the black guy who’s scoring 40%. That is simply unacceptable. It is time we stop making the standard excuses like “white supremacism” and get down to bidniss.

Lester Spence 10.07.04 at 4:52 am

Enrique, we seem to agree on the power of black culture historically. In fact you’ve opened my eyes to a possibility I hadn’t considered before…that the comparison may not be between blacks and whites at all, but an intra-racial one between blacks now and blacks “then.” It does not appear that you are making an argument that blacks are culturally inferior to whites–an argument I perceive from LaShawn–but an argument that blacks are culturally inferior to previous generations of blacks.

This is overly romantic, but I at least sympathise with this position.

Where we disagree is pretty much on the data. The Brookings Institute chapter shows that there are minor differences in homework patterns between blacks and whites…but no difference at all in most other indicators. So where is the being smart=being white attitude IN THE DATA? The Duke Study shows that out of 11 schools, the dynamic was only present in ONE.

If Ogbu’s theory were true, wouldn’t that dynamic be much more pervasive? Wouldn’t we see it in at least half, if not more, of the school settings?

Now again, if you’re arguing that blacks at point B are inferior to blacks at point A, then that’s another position.

La Shawn 10.07.04 at 5:21 am

It does not appear that you are making an argument that blacks are culturally inferior to whites–an argument I perceive from La Shawn…

I’ll let that one slip by because for too long, such statements have caused people to back off from their stand for fear of being called a “racist” or “self-hater”, but it is subtle enough not to trigger my indignation (though my arguments are taken out of context and your statement is an indirect dig at me). In spite of my perception, I do want your participation on this.

In many ways some blacks are culturally inferior, but I think that has less to do with skin color and more to do with black sub-culture. For instance, I’d hesitate to say that certain black immigrants are, the way I can readily say it about the younger generation of blacks, which I don’t claim to be a part of.

…but an argument that blacks are culturally inferior to previous generations of blacks.

I believe that most blacks today are, without a doubt, culturally inferior to most blacks of previous generations, and I didn’t say so because I assumed it was obvious to most clear-thinking blacks. Perhaps I should have been explicit.

That we are more technologically savvy or knowledgeable does not a “cultured people” make. We make up with high-tech and popular culture knowledge (not a “good” thing) for what we lack in certain values and “dignity”, something I keep harping on. It seems to me that blacks then, while living under Jim Crow mind you, had certain expectations out of life that didn’t include taking from the system (which wasn’t receptive to giving then anything anyway) or redressing every racial slight, perceived or otherwise, the way people seem to do now.

I haven’t done a formal study and or employed any method for testing this observation, but it seems that sometime during the Civil Rights movement or thereafter, black attitudes and expectations changed dramatically. When blacks knew for certain that whites expected them to stay “in their place”, a certain pride permeated our sub-culture, a sort of “underdoggism”, and blacks were clear about their options and what they had to do to succeed. But you “independents”, or whatever you call yourselves, are just loathe to agree with anything I write and will not even allow the possibility that some of my views are on the mark. That’s OK, sort of, as long as it doesn’t get too personal.

Another stark generational difference is when I ask a black person today to tell me about a recent racist incident, I invariably get the “white salesperson following me around the store” routine or how some “white man looked at me like he didn’t want me there” line. Good grief. Thankfully for this generation of blacks, previous ones were made of much tougher stuff, even while living under actual racism.

Tom Grey - Liberty Dad 10.07.04 at 9:31 am

I suspect that rap music obscenity is also, partly, a rejection of being “too white” / too establishment.

The black attitude change came after MLK was assassinated, I think. The (white) MAN was against the good anti-establishment folk, anti-war white, anti-sexist woman, anti-racist black.

But there was always more an envy/destructive protest against those “too rich”, who don’t deserve it, rather than honest support for lower class workers to become middle class.

Too middle class, too establishment. Too white.

Enrique Cardova 10.07.04 at 2:31 pm

Lester,
Never made the argument that blacks are inferior to whites, and LaShawn isn’t either. Also not at all suggesting that blacks of a previous generation are culturally superior. I am only saying that in many ways they made better use of the opportunities available on the ground, despite the bitter opposition of a Jim Crow society. Today’s blacks have it a lot better. Yet the Duke study shows these kids throwing in the towel because some white people showed up in advanced classes.

You say a Brookings study- which one? which pages? and which authors? The Long. Survey referenced in these posts shows that there wasn’t much difference in such “soft” variables as absenteeism, dropout rates etc at the HIGHEST percentile of black students who had good attitudes. What it doesn’t show is how these students fared on crucial tests of performance, which is what Ogbu/MCWorther focus on. It also skips over why black kids are doing worse than those who supposedly have the same attitudes, a gap that again, can be seen by looking at the hard data of standardized tests. Schools can always give gold stars for attendance and “graduate” students, and thus claim “success”, but we both know that they are turning out black “graduates” in too many places who are functioning at 8th grade levels. If this is supposed to be “success” or “progress” it is one of the the biggest con games ever foisted on blacks.

The Survey contradicts the Duke study, which actually lends SUPPORT to McWorther/Ogbu, finding evidence of the oppositional culture that Ogbu/McWorther claimed was there all along. See page 49 where kids complain of being dogged for “acting white.” The twist in this study is that the negative atitudes seemed to be stronger where advanced work was being done with a lot of white people, particularly in the one school you mention. The black students felt inferior, considering such advanced work to be the “property” of whites. But even this finding again, tends to lean in Ogbu/MCWorther’s direction. One of the things in Ogbu’s research found is that even affluent, middle-class black kids had negative attitudes and by their own admission were not putting out the effort they should. It is precisely such better off kids that are likely to be going into advanced classes- head to head with white and Asian students. If our better off black students are throwing in the towel, or slacking off, as both Duke and Ogbu/McWorther indicate, then where are we headed?

Ogbu said the attitudes were there. Duke says the attitudes are there. Sowell says the attitudes are there even in all black schools where there are no white students around to make the kids feel “inferior”. We all know what is going on. We know the stats that show black kids spending more time watching TV than any other group. We know the deal, but are afraid to face it and speak the blunt truths that must be spoken.

Enrique Cardova 10.07.04 at 2:37 pm

LaShawn, I would disagree as to your phrasing on past generations of blacks. I would argue that they made better or superior use of available opportunities compared to today’s generation- which is exactly what Cosby was implying. But I suspect we are on the same wavelength and just phrase the same general idea differently. Still there is much to what you say. Why for example in the bad old days of Jim Crow, did blacks not have the illegitimacy rates we have today? Why for example, according to Sowell’s recent “Affirmative Action Around The World” book, did blacks have a slightly HIGHER marriage rate that whites, and HIGHER labor force participation that whites in the late nineteenth century, a pattern continuing well into the 20th? How come the black kids at segregated Dunbar High School turned in performances equal to or exceeding the surrounding white schools, and didn’t descend into such nonsense as “acting white”? Where are the hard-nosed generation of “strivers” that marked even poor, segregated black neighborhoods? And why did such patterns dramatically change after the 1960s when we were supposedly blessed with the generosity and goodness of white liberalism?
———

Tom Grey I agree with what you say. The Rap culture is part and parcel of the decline in black communities. But I don’t think MLK’s assassination had anything to do with the change. Rather as La Shawn often points out, is the poisonous culture of welfare and government dependence promoted by white liberals and their lackeys that bears a lot more responsibility for that change. In many ways it was self-serving promotion. More black dependency produces more jobs for an army of white bureaucrats, and gets more white politicans elected. Affirmative Action not only helps the more fortunate black but also benefits primarily white women, a “minority” making up almost half the population. Comparisons to the black struggle have yielded benefits to white homosexuals who can manipulate the language of “civil rights” to gain sympathy. Supposed concern for blacks and “diversity” provides sweet cover for leftist white social engineers intent on destroyng the Judeo-Christian heritage. Black folks are in many ways a gold mine for white people, providing excellent front-men or stalking horses to fulfill their agendas.

LB 10.07.04 at 3:10 pm

LaShawn, I would disagree as to your phrasing on past generations of blacks. I would argue that they made better or superior use of available opportunities compared to today’s generation.

Keep in mind I’m also referring to a system of values, or at the very least, the presence of stigma against certain behaviors. Sadly, such ideas are relics of the past.

Where have you been, Enrique? I hope you stick around here for a while. ;)

triticale 10.07.04 at 5:51 pm

Enrique, you are missing the point I am trying to make, maybe because I’m not making it clear. Black students who express the opinion that doing well in school is “acting white” are expressing a white supremicist position.

Lester Spence 10.07.04 at 6:03 pm

Enrique, I do not see the agreement between your argument about black values and LaShawn’s, though I do see that you both agree on the value of Ogbu’s study. For me either the gap between blacks and whites come from subjugation, random luck of the draw, or inferiority. I believe in the value of black culture (past AND present). And while again I sympathise with the argument that blacks now are worse off value-wise than blacks in the past…the central argument we are making NOW deals with black white comparisons. So if black culture is to blame, this indicates that black culture is inferior to white culture. This is LaShawn’s position as I understand it.

You refer to quantitative data. While there is indeed a place for qualitative data, with arguments like this, quantitative data that allows us to parse out cause and effect is very important.

Neither Ogbu nor McWhorter have ANY quantitative data. McWhorter actually doesn’t have qualitative data either. So when you refer to Ogbu’s data it is hard to know what you are referring to here.

And again I have to emphasize the importance of trends. Finding that one school out of 11 exhibits the trait under study signifies a trend going in the opposite direction. Correct me if I am wrong (PLEASE), but from what I understand of Ogbu’s work, Ogbu is making a claim that oppositional culture is PERVASIVE!

If it is so pervasive why is it only found in 1 school out of 11? Why isn’t there proof of it in the longitudinal study? What there is proof of is a GAP–but the gap can possibly be explained by many different theories. The trick is finding one (or a combination of them) that trumps the others in simplicity and in efficiency.

The oppositional-culture argument doesn’t meet either standard. I don’t see how it could.

DarkStar 10.07.04 at 6:40 pm

The survey found little “acting white” opposition among blacks at advanced levels, undermining one of the planks of the Duke research,

The survey I referenced found SIMILAR opposition between Blacks and whites concerning high achievement. That’s fundamentally different than what you keep, wrongly, stating.

You had mentioned socio- economic factors and the Survey did suggest

Actually, it did more than suggest, the results of the data make it clear.

La Shawn 10.07.04 at 6:44 pm

Don’t mean to follow you around the blog, DarkStar, but didn’t you link to Ogbu’s study, or something similar, on Vision Circle? Was it on the Brookings site?

dick 10.07.04 at 7:51 pm

Let me just state up front that I am white. I am posting from what I was told by my very close black friend who grew up in Passaic, NJ back in the 30’s and 40’s. She was taught by her parents that low grades were not acceptable in any way, shape or form. She ended up with a masters and taught nursing at Va Tech and Fairleigh Dickinson for years.

What impressed me, though, was that she told me about how her father, who did not have a high school education, and his friends, who also did not have a high school education, used to get together on Friday nights and have discussions about the books they had read. They would each select a book from the library and have a week to read it. The next Friday they would each make a presentation concerning that book and talk about the meaning of the book and how it related to their lives. They also studied math and history and geography. None of them was well educated so the preacher would come over and lead the discussions. The books they read included all the classics, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Dickens, Mark Twain. None of this was for any gain financially. They just felt that they should be well read and be able to help their kids in school and also set a good example for the rest of the neighbors. This was back in the 1930’s.

I understand that some of this same type of thing also went on in the early union movement. The heads of the unions would get professors come to lead the men in learning different subjects – including philosophy, political science, math, English, history.

What has happened that this type of thing has gone out of style. We need people like this more than ever instead of this dumbing down we are gettin today.

DarkStar 10.07.04 at 10:49 pm

Was it on the Brookings site?

Yes.

Lester Spence 10.07.04 at 11:34 pm

The reason that the paper has been removed is because of publicity. Given that it is in the submission pipeline the authors want to be careful that someone doesn’t commit the academic version of a hijacking. I’m actually surprised they kept it up as long as they did. I don’t post any of my papers up until they’ve been published. Which reminds me that I have some posting to do….

Enrique Cardova 10.08.04 at 12:06 am

Lester, of course other other factors play a part. A culture can’t exist in isolation from the rest of society. So I have already mentioned poverty, lousy school administrations, and white liberals among other things that contribute to the negative results we are seeing. As for inferiority, every culture can be better adapted to some situations. The fact is that in too many schools today, black students have not adapted to the demands of literacy and nummeracy needed for broad based and sustained growth of income and assets in the US. Problems adapting are nothing unique with blacks. The white Irish had their problems along these lines and so by the way did the Jews, whose dismal scores on Army intelligence tests during WWI, caused some racists to howl with glee at the “inferiority of the Semitic races”. But over time this situation changed, as both Jews and Irish immigrants became better adapted.

You say neither Ogbu or McWorther have any quantative data. This is simply false. The Duke study itself refers to the 1986 work of Ogbu and Fordham, along with OTHER research supporting Ogbu (Herbert, Bergin and Cooks, Ford and Harris, Weissert et al).

The Duke study found the oppositional culture in ALL the schools, with it being most visible when black kids had to compete against whites in advanced classes, classes they felt were “legitimately the property of whites”. The Long. Survey found evidence of negative attitudes among all students. It never went on to ask why black students were doing so much worse on crucial performance tests when other races also had negativity. But Ogbu did look at those crucial performance tests. And it is not only Obgu. The Duke study itself lists at least 7 research studies supporting Ogbu and McWorther. We can quibble with all the research referenced as to their methods, etc., point to conflicting research, and as we have done in this thread, and rebuttals to the conflicting research. But even if you don’t deal with any research, the evidence before the eyes of any concerned black person today shows that something is seriously wrong in black education.

—–
Darkstar, your Survey found negativity. OK fine. Call it whatever you will, but the bottom line is unchanged as detailed in 3 previous posts. Also you mention socio-economic factors. Again OK, but it still does not change the bottom line.
—-
Triticale, it may well be true that SOMEWHERE, white racists consider it impossible that black students could excel in school, and that indeed such performance is only possible if you are white. Fair enough. They are out there.

——–
Dick, the line of excellence you mention is EXACTLY what LaShawn has been preaching all this time. W.E.B Dubois lauded the works of Shakespeare, Moses, Volitaire, Aristotle, etc because they helped him develop intellectually. Jim Crow could force him to the back of the bus, but it couldn’t stop him from reading. He didn’t dismiss them because the were “dead white males.”

Jeremy Pierce 10.08.04 at 12:58 pm

I just wanted to make something clear that I think some commenters here have misunderstood about McWhorter’s view. He doesn’t think black people are opposed to education or school. He doesn’t think black people see schooling as bad at all. It’s a very good thing, but it’s good only for utilitarian purposes. It’s good because it gets people ahead. It allows people to use that education to make more money or to have higher standing in the community.

He contrasts that with an attitude that isn’t universal among white people but happens at a much higher rate. That’s the attitude that learning is good for its own sake. Learning enables you to be a more well-rounded person. Education is itself a good thing. Not just that, but those who seek an education will then identify with that process as a part of who they are. Not so with many in the black community. Education is whitey’s field, and they better allow black people to take advantage of it to get its effects, even to the point of thinking it’s deserved even without working for it. Otherwise, higher standards would be required. Still, it’s “not us”. There’s not the same kind of identification. It’s still whitey’s realm, and ifentifying with school work as a black thing is just not common.

LB 10.08.04 at 1:05 pm

Just to respond to a specific part of your comment, Jeremy, I see the value of learning for its own sake, whether it gets people “ahead” or not. Always have. Knowledge is always good, and I don’t mean simply skills. I mean having a grasp on overarching themes and concepts, philosophies of systems, etc. Recorded human history is rich with information about how societies, ideas and worldviews are formed. By studying history we see the best and the worst of what humans can be. I’m struggling to explain what I mean, so I hope it is clear.

Andy 10.08.04 at 1:12 pm

Enrique, you’re a BrightStar! Thanks for banishing the darkness on this topic. Speaking for myself, you validated what I instinctively and from experience knew to be true. In so doing, you also reaffirm what God has to say about the depravity of human nature. I second La Shawn’s hopes that you’ll be a regular here.

Regarding Triticale’s comment, I think her point is that blacks who deride their peers for acting white are in effect sprouting the KKK’s line. So to link to Coz’s meme; when we turn the mirror around on the ignant and race-pimps, they can’t see that they are indeed wearing white pointy hoods, altho it is plainly evident to us.

Steven J. Kelso Sr. 10.08.04 at 5:19 pm

I realize that I am joining the conversation late, but I see that a certain irony has not yet been noted. Back in the time of slavery, education was forbidden to blacks, making it a “white thing.” Therefore, education was highly prized. Now, with freedom, education is still seen as “other,” but it is other blacks who are standing in the way. Irony is often painful.

DarkStar 10.08.04 at 6:55 pm

OK fine. Call it whatever you will, but the bottom line is unchanged as detailed in 3 previous posts. Also you mention socio-economic factors. Again OK, but it still does not change the bottom line.

What you are claiming is the bottom line, is not born out in the report I cited.

triticale 10.09.04 at 11:36 pm

Andy, you got my point correct, but not the gender (something I have to accept as a price of nicknonymity).

What better way to hold down a group of people than to convince them not only to tie their identity to that group rather than to think and act as individuals, but to convince them that the proper way to manifest that identity is to hold themselves down.

Chris Roberts 10.10.04 at 12:10 am

Thank you, Dick.

DarkStar 10.11.04 at 10:05 am

What better way to hold down a group of people than to convince them not only to tie their identity to that group

I guess you choose to ignore the historical context?

Who placed Blacks in a group as the first place?

Who, then, says Blacks should model themselves after Jewish people or some of the recent immigrant GROUPS?

Negrorage 10.13.04 at 3:52 pm

“I realize that I am joining the conversation late, but I see that a certain irony has not yet been noted. Back in the time of slavery, education was forbidden to blacks, making it a “white thing.” Therefore, education was highly prized. Now, with freedom, education is still seen as “other,” but it is other blacks who are standing in the way. Irony is often painful.”

^ This person almost got it right. Is “victimology” a cultural problem? Yes. Does that mean that black culture is somehow “inferior”? Yes and No.
“Victimology” is a myth. Plain and simple.

Anese 12.08.04 at 5:33 pm

sorry to double-post, but I also wanted to add that while I disagree with alot of the assertions of Mr. McWhorter, I do see where he is drawing the conclusions from–I was accused of “acting” or “talking” “white” many times in my life, but that was not necessarily because I was achieving–there were plenty of other black students that were top ten percent and going to big name schools that never had to go through that. A large portion of how the students saw me had to do with how I perceived myself–I saw myself as black, but I did not associate myself with the media’s cultural identity for me, therefore, I acted differently than others. People will not always embrace things that are different from them.

Despite all of this, I agree that there is a problem, but I would never assert that blacks are “imagining” the injustices that they suffer today that result in their slipping back on the economical and cultural ladder. 300 years of physical and psychological oppression is not forgotten in one or two generations.

jordy riggan 01.06.05 at 1:14 pm

and so do you – Admin

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