Despite all of this, I agree that there is a problem, but I would never assert that blacks are “imagining” the injustices that they suffer today that result in their slipping back on the economical and cultural ladder. 300 years of physical and psychological oppression is not forgotten in one or two generations.

^ This person almost got it right. Is “victimology” a cultural problem? Yes. Does that mean that black culture is somehow “inferior”? Yes and No.
“Victimology” is a myth. Plain and simple.

I guess you choose to ignore the historical context?

Who placed Blacks in a group as the first place?

Who, then, says Blacks should model themselves after Jewish people or some of the recent immigrant GROUPS?

What better way to hold down a group of people than to convince them not only to tie their identity to that group rather than to think and act as individuals, but to convince them that the proper way to manifest that identity is to hold themselves down.

What you are claiming is the bottom line, is not born out in the report I cited.

Regarding Triticale’s comment, I think her point is that blacks who deride their peers for acting white are in effect sprouting the KKK’s line. So to link to Coz’s meme; when we turn the mirror around on the ignant and race-pimps, they can’t see that they are indeed wearing white pointy hoods, altho it is plainly evident to us.

He contrasts that with an attitude that isn’t universal among white people but happens at a much higher rate. That’s the attitude that learning is good for its own sake. Learning enables you to be a more well-rounded person. Education is itself a good thing. Not just that, but those who seek an education will then identify with that process as a part of who they are. Not so with many in the black community. Education is whitey’s field, and they better allow black people to take advantage of it to get its effects, even to the point of thinking it’s deserved even without working for it. Otherwise, higher standards would be required. Still, it’s “not us”. There’s not the same kind of identification. It’s still whitey’s realm, and ifentifying with school work as a black thing is just not common.

You say neither Ogbu or McWorther have any quantative data. This is simply false. The Duke study itself refers to the 1986 work of Ogbu and Fordham, along with OTHER research supporting Ogbu (Herbert, Bergin and Cooks, Ford and Harris, Weissert et al).

The Duke study found the oppositional culture in ALL the schools, with it being most visible when black kids had to compete against whites in advanced classes, classes they felt were “legitimately the property of whites”. The Long. Survey found evidence of negative attitudes among all students. It never went on to ask why black students were doing so much worse on crucial performance tests when other races also had negativity. But Ogbu did look at those crucial performance tests. And it is not only Obgu. The Duke study itself lists at least 7 research studies supporting Ogbu and McWorther. We can quibble with all the research referenced as to their methods, etc., point to conflicting research, and as we have done in this thread, and rebuttals to the conflicting research. But even if you don’t deal with any research, the evidence before the eyes of any concerned black person today shows that something is seriously wrong in black education.

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Darkstar, your Survey found negativity. OK fine. Call it whatever you will, but the bottom line is unchanged as detailed in 3 previous posts. Also you mention socio-economic factors. Again OK, but it still does not change the bottom line.
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Triticale, it may well be true that SOMEWHERE, white racists consider it impossible that black students could excel in school, and that indeed such performance is only possible if you are white. Fair enough. They are out there.

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Dick, the line of excellence you mention is EXACTLY what LaShawn has been preaching all this time. W.E.B Dubois lauded the works of Shakespeare, Moses, Volitaire, Aristotle, etc because they helped him develop intellectually. Jim Crow could force him to the back of the bus, but it couldn’t stop him from reading. He didn’t dismiss them because the were “dead white males.”

Yes.

What impressed me, though, was that she told me about how her father, who did not have a high school education, and his friends, who also did not have a high school education, used to get together on Friday nights and have discussions about the books they had read. They would each select a book from the library and have a week to read it. The next Friday they would each make a presentation concerning that book and talk about the meaning of the book and how it related to their lives. They also studied math and history and geography. None of them was well educated so the preacher would come over and lead the discussions. The books they read included all the classics, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Dickens, Mark Twain. None of this was for any gain financially. They just felt that they should be well read and be able to help their kids in school and also set a good example for the rest of the neighbors. This was back in the 1930’s.

I understand that some of this same type of thing also went on in the early union movement. The heads of the unions would get professors come to lead the men in learning different subjects – including philosophy, political science, math, English, history.

What has happened that this type of thing has gone out of style. We need people like this more than ever instead of this dumbing down we are gettin today.