This is true, Gary, but not in the context you want it to be true. We all stand before God in judgment, and those he saved are spared from that judgment. God saves all kinds of people, without regard to sex, race, or nationality. He is no respecter of persons. That’s what the verse means. To use this text as proof that God doesn’t condemn homosexuality as a sin is wrong. You are correct that God’s commands apply to all, no matter what kind of person, place or thing we’re attracted to or what we call ourselves. And the “homosexuality and heterosexuality is unequally lawful to us” comment is a little confusing, but I suppose you’re referring to illicit activity in general. If that’s what you meant, you’re correct there, too. Such activity is sinful, no matter what your orientation is.

And it’s true that things done in love edify, but on whose standard is that loved based and expressed? God’s! It’s not our notion of love, but his own. “If you love me you will keep my commands,” he tells us. What are his commands? The whole Bible. Disobeying him is unlawful, and if we purport to show “love” by doing or saying something contrary to what the Bible teaches, that is not love.

Gary, I can’t judge your heart, but if you want to justify homosexuality or equate it with God’s design for his creation, go right ahead. That’s between you and God. But no sin can be justified through Scripture, and for you to claim that homosexuality is not forbidden is just plain wrong. I won’t enumerate the verses to support this because others in the thread have done so already.

You’re also correct about the love of Christ for the believer. But for some reason, you skip over the part about how he hates sin, and homosexuality is a sin, just as lying, stealing, gossiping and other things are. No one on this board has said (or should be saying) that Christ loves you any less because you are oriented toward same-sex attraction AND you are one of his elect. But if you believe his love somehow excuses your behavior, whatever it is, you’re wrong.

And this: Any expression of sexuality which lifts, supports the individual and the individual’s life partner and society as a whole, which is expressed in heart attitude of the Spirit’s Love is lawful and Scripturally supported.

All I can say is that I will be praying for you. I don’t know what denomination you belong to that teaches something like this, but I humbly recommend you at least skim through a book called Same-Sex Controversy by Dr. James White, which lays out many arguments such as yours and rebuts them convincingly through the Scriptures.

I hope this reply is somewhat coherent because I’m a little perplexed and disheartened by some of your contentions. Very worrisome. Most of my visitors don’t comment; they just read the blog. For the sake of anyone seeking God, I can’t allow Scripture to be used (improperly) to support or condone homosexual behavior. In that regard, I’m closing down a thread for the second time today. All interested parties have had their say, so let’s move on.

And I thank for your act of generosity this morning, Gary. I appreciate it very much.

In Christ there is neither male or female, slave or free, Jew or non-Jew, homosexual or heterosexual. God looks at the heart and determines if God there resides and therein lives an attitude and motivation of Love.

Only things done in love edify. Heterosexual or homosexual orientation, as we now understand and define it is not discussed in Scripture. The Bible is full of verses discussing sexual activity, desire, and/or expression. Any expression of sexuality which is not rooted and grounded in Christ’s Law of Love is sin.

Homosexuality and heterosexuality are equally lawful to us, but the manner of expression of either is not often expedient or profitable, constructive and beneficial to the individual, life partner or society as a whole.

A homosexual Christian is bound by the same guidelines as a heterosexual Christian, i.e., to live a life sober, respectful of persons and property, temperate, non-judgemental, honorable, self-sacrificing, gentle, faithful, and all other expressions of Christ’s Law of Love. A homosexual oriented person’s expression of his/her sexuality is the same as that of a heterosexual oriented person’s, i.e., responsible to honor Christ, self, life partner and society, be chaste, honor marriage/partnership, and the marriage/partnership bed.

Homosexuality is no more a sin than heterosexuality; it is the attitude and expression of the heart of a homosexual or heterosexual oriented person wherein lies the potential for sin. Any expression of sexuality which demeans, exploits, uses or abuses another person is sin, and is criticized in Scripture. Any expression of sexuality which lifts, supports the individual and the individuals’s life partner and society as a whole, which is expressed in heart attitude of the Spirit’s Love is lawful and Scripturally supported.

You may spend a lifetime debating, discussing and/or dissecting Scriptures. You cannot debate Love or Christ nor judge those whom God embraces as children purchased by Blood.

May your life be blessed beyond measure,

The definition of marriage is a union between A man and A woman. What purpose is there to deconstructing this meaning?

As for facts in Mass and Vermont, since a year of civil unions cannot provide hard facts you will have to ask this question thirty years from now in order to have enough data available to support your premise that same-sex sex partners produce healthy, stable environments with which to procreate.

Certain cultures in Europe have had thirty years to experiment with same-sex marriage, the results are not proving your premise.

Defending the constructs of marriage is not an attack against people who engage in same-sex relationships. Unfortunately the gay movement is the one attacking the constructs of marriage by wishing to redefine and trivialize it’s meaning.

Marriage is a union between A man and A women. Ideally, offspring should be raised by a male and a female in order to receive the best possible environment for achieving stability. Consider the possiblity that an offspring raised by one sex, either all female or all male, is deprived of half the equation. Two male parents cannot possiblity provide a feminine experience just as two female parents cannot provide a masculine experience. By raising off-spring in a one-sex environment one is depriving the child of half the experience necessary in creating a balance. Our society must constantly strive to provide the best possible environment in procreation, we owe this to our children.

I am a product of the great divorce experiment which began in the early 1970’s and, because of my experiences, I am now a great defender of the institution of marriage. I am the damage done by those who led us to believe that the institution of marriage can be trivialized and altered for the purpose of serving self gratification. The “ME” generation is growing up and is recognizing that self gratification is not necessarily the sole purpose to life.

I also believe God is alive and is speaking to God’s children even today. God’s words are found in the Bible but God continues to reveal truths not found in scripture through the Holy Spirit. “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than a two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”(Hebrews 4:12)

I believe in the power of prayer. I believe we are promised that if we give our cares and joys to God in prayer we will be blessed. “And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”(Matthew 21:22) as well as,”Have no anxiety about anything, but everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and minds in Jesus christ.”(Philippians 4:6-7)

And finally Andy, I do believe God considers me equal to you, regardless of my sexual orientation, you see, God made me as a gay man and has opened God’s realm to me without reservation. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”(Galatians 3:28) and “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father (Heavenly Parent)in my name God may give it to you. This I command you, to love one another.”–John 15:16-17

I praise God for always being faithful to my family and me. Amen.

Find the most broken persons you can find and become their friends–not their judge, not their critic, but their friend. Nurture their talents. Forgetting what you do not like about them (God can take care of that in God’s own time), love them into life. Leave your hetero Respectability outside the door, and move among them as Christ moved among the Samaritans, the publicans, the drinkers, the prostitutes. Had Christ gone around telling them how wrong they were, they would not have continued to invite Him to dinner. He dealt first with their thirst! Don’t worry too much about your neightbors’ sins; most of my neighbors know their sins far better than I could, or want to. Most of my neighbors don’t know, however, how very much God loves them and has already taken care of their sins. They might start to believe God’s love if you can begin to love them as much as God does, just as they are.

Andy, I have no idea what theological conclusions you will reach after a few weeks of such ministry, but I do know this; your discourse will change. You will change. and so will the gays and lesbians whom you love.

Are you up for the challenge?

Even if Satan repented, he still can’t be saved; 1) Jesus came to save man, not angels, 2) Angels know what they had with God and chose to rebel. That punishment is permanent without recourse.

This may be a reason why Satan is filled with fury, who cares. God made them and if He choses to throw them on the rack and toture them day in and day out for eternity, what do I care let alone impute my sense of justice on His divine will. God’s wrath is not to be trifled with.

Furthermore, the Bible is clear that angels were created to serve God & man. So as pecking orders go, we out-rank them. Except for the hereafter on Judgement day where those cast out will spend eternity tormented by Satan & “friends”. So let’s dispense with equating Satan with man.

As for taking away God’s wonderful trait, I didn’t do that. He did. You mistake unconditional love for tacit approval to keep on sinning. You quoted Roms 3:23, but scroll on down to verse 25 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation thru faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, thru the forebearance of God”

As for believing and still bringing on the wrath of God, look at Acts 8:5 – 25, of note verse 21-23 “Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thine heart is not right in the sight of the Lord. Repent of this wickedness and pray God, if perhaps the thot of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I percieve that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity”

This was Peter rebuking Simon the magician who became a believer but still tried to hang on to his life of sin. Something to think about when time & time again, the Bible equates sorcery with rebellion and rebellion with homosexuality.

Go and sin no more and may God prick your conscience with His truth.

But even the gathering process has its downfalls. Because when you scoop up a bunch of people, you will inevitably scoop up the good with the bad. As Jesus reminds us in the passage recorded in Matthew’s gospel, there are sheep and there are goats. The sheep are the people who belong to God’s flock. The goats are not of God. You might be sitting next to a goat right now and not even know it. But you know what? That’s not our problem. We don’t have to try and figure out who are the sheep and who are the goats. In fact, Jesus tells us, that’s not even our job. we shouldn’t even try to make judgements about other people, no matter how tempting it is or how much we may claim to be an expert at distinguishing between certain types of animals. That job is reserved for someone else.

My prayers go with you, that you too may know the Christ who sustains me.

I rather think Satan acknowledges Jesus Christ and knows who Jesus is, but I don’t think he believes in Jesus. In (John 3:16) we hear Jesus state that, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” As there are no reservations nor conditions contained in this statement, if Satan truly believed that Jesus’ death at Calvary atoned for sins of all people, reconciling us again with our Creator and accepted this gift of salvation, I am sure that Satan too would be saved. I believe that Satan, with his demonstrated lust of power, can not grasp the concept of love so great that God died for us.

We each take responsibility for our choices. Satan and his followers chose to rebel against God, and until they repent, as you and I need to repent, they will be alienated from God’s dominion. Being a believer is just that – one who believes – and the Apostle Paul points out that it is not by our deeds that we are saved, lest we boast of our accomplishments. But belief in Jesus, together with an ever increasing knowledge of our Saviour which we acquire by spending time with him in prayer and study Scripture, does create the desire and the power for changes in our own lives. In fact, we become more like Jesus in our attitudes, thoughts, words and actions.

As for me, the most important choice im my life was to believe in and accept Jesus as my Saviour, not whether I was a gay man or not. That decision was made in my genetic script, or DNA, and since none of God’s creation is flawed, my sexuality is, I believe, part of God’s perfect plan.

Thank you for your affirmation of God’s love for all human beings. May God write the truth upon your heart, and pour out mercy and lovingkindness upon you.

Well, Brad, as an employer I would terminate an employee who was cheating on his or her spouse whether they were doing the cheating at work or anywhere else.

Think about this. If a person cannot be trusted to faithfully honor his or marriage vows, the most solemn vows that one ever makes, how can I place any trust in that person? If a man is willing to cheat on his wife that person is certainly not going to have any qualms about cheating his employer..

I am sure that many people will not like to hear this, but think for a minute what is involved in marital infidelity. When a person marries they take a solemn oath that they will remain faithful to their spouse, forsaking all others, until death. When a person enters into an employment contract they are not required to an oath of any sort–it is simply implied that they will not cheat their employer.

So, if a person is willing to sneak about and betray their spouse, how much more willing would such a person be to sneak about and cheat their employer?

While God loves us unconditionally, it doesn’t mean he’s not going to punish us for persisting in sin and abusing his grace. Before one can repent, one has to be aware of the sin. Sin is not what we chose to define, it is what God has arbitarily commanded of us.

To compare male seals to man is sheer folly. God did not make them in his image. And the fact that two male animals do it, only suggest three things to me; 1) A short-circuit in their DNA, in which case, they won’t pass it on, 2) Animal lust is just that, the base instinct to just relieve themselves regardless of how, and/or 3) Demons getting their perverted jollies.

Since you refuse to acknowledge the sin of homosexuality, then what’s the point of repenting and becoming a new creature? Somehow I missed the verse where it says ‘therefore shall a man leave his family and cleave to another and the two shall become one. I’d like to be enlightened as to where God ordains the marriage of two men or two women.

On the other hand, Satan and his minions are quite conversant in their knowledge of the Bible. To my limited knowledge, Satan’s suggestions to Jesus and Peter sounds imminently logical as a way of proving to the non believers that Christ is indeed the Son of God.

Yet each time, Jesus rebuked Satan and essentially told him to get lost. How sure are you that Jesus wouldn’t say the same thing to your espoused wisdom? It matters not one whit if you’re surrounded by church, support group, or around a positve friend — the blind leading the blind.

To wit, I think while most Christians can agree that polygamy is counter to the model of mariage even they can accept a brother in Christ who has 4 wives. The common ground we have is that polygamy has never been a forbidden fruit, yet the Bible gives plenty of examples of where it is not recommended. Sort of like a car maker saying, ‘well this car has a top speed of 150mph, but we wouldn’t recommend maintaining that speed all day long’. Just because one can is not necessarily a license to do so.

More so for the church leadership. It is here that the Bible becomes explicit that the Elders and Deacons should only have one wife. Nothing to do with spiritual morality, rather to do with effectiveness in taking care of the flock.

It’s kinda hard for a Deacon to give attention to the church when he has an unruly household of squabbling wives and children to contend with.

Since the Bible also defines all believers as saints, we also extend that belief to the community and hence the social morality that frowns on polygamy. This is something that we chose to do, yet, again, it doesn’t stop us from embracing Christian families from other cultures where they already practice it, as Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Or paraphrasing Paul, I’d rather that we all were single so we can concentrate on the Gospel, but if it burns, then by all means get married. But in the context of that chapter & book, there is no mistaking that he allowed that Adam could marry Steve if it burns.

No less than that a Protestant can accept the Catholic or the Orthodox, where the personal fundamental articles of faith are similar and disagreement lies in the execution and exercise thereof.

The Catholic Church may believe that the Pope is infalliable, etc and the Protestant Church disagrees, but as long as both believers believe in the redemning Blood of Christ, we have our common ground.

This is not to say that all Catholics are saved, any less than all Protestants are saved. In some situations, we will never know until judgement day, but in others, their lack of faith is distinctly obvious and thusly, we are commanded to call them on it or cast them out, lest they corrupt the group.

This is why one of us will always challenge your questionable words concerning Christianity and compare them to God’s Word.

In that sense, any Catholic Bishop, Protestant clergy that is also a practising gay IS by God’s definition apostate or a false prophet given over to divers temptations.

What’s sad is when the rebellious have taken over the reigns of their church, to wit the USA Episcapalians versus the Africans.

I see I need to inform and educate you…In December of 1999 the Vermont Supreme Court ruled that denying same-sex couples the benefits and protections of civil marriage was a violation of the state’s constitution. Vermont chose to create a seperate institution: civil unions. Vermont’s civil union law went into effect in July of 2000. And yesterday, here in Massachusetts where I reside, we celebrated the one year anniversary after the historical court ruling that legalized gay marriage. So, until you can show me where the data shows civil unions and gay marriages in both Vermont and Massachusetts are hurting people here in the U.S. I don’t want to hear about this being about “survival”.

One thing I have learned in my experiences in life. Love is how I am able to discern that something is from God. Every time I have been somewhere where I felt God’s Presense more intensely or profoundly than others such as my church, my support group, or around a positve friend it never fails that I see the words, “Unconditional Love” somewhere.

The Bible also tells us to rebuke an erring brother and if he refuses to repent, send him packing. Like I said before, all the la-di-da’s you’ve been spewing don’t mean crap if you can’t back it up with God’s Word, notwithstanding twisting it to assauge your guilt.

To be in Christ and He in you, you have to take the good, the bad and the ugly, regarding our sinful state.

So far, you’ve only taken the ugly and called it pretty and called the bad relative, while claiming the ‘personal’ good trumps all the rest, in hopes of condoning continual sin. Remember when Jesus told the whore to go and sin no more?

As the Bible tells us, beware the deceiver who will appear as an angel of light, and I might add, whispering sweet la-di-dahs in your ear.