With one primary caveat, it’s a two way street. If you come, prepare to be assimilated. That’s my biggest issue with open borders, one can’t come to a new world and yet cling to the old world to the point that we subsidize the multi-kultis.

There are several common sense solutions to reducing illegal immigration. Reduction of the welfare state, prosecution of companies who hire illegals, immediate deportation, removal of benefits and incentives, all would help reduce the amount of illegals entering the nation due to removing the incentive for them to come here.

The US will have to wake up one day and realize that we can no longer absorb the rest of the worlds economic refugees, nor should we. The creation of a permanant low skilled, illiterate underclass is not desireable and it is certainly not what this nation was founded on when it comes to immigration.

Andy, Baklava: ROTFLMAO

If you really are Omar, I belive I have more than adequately deconstructed your whimsy ‘EU will be a superpower’.

Since I’m using a new laptop on a 2 month roadtrip, it’d be some time before I recover my supporting data and bookmarks, but it looks like it won’t matter anyway as far as you’re concerned. But suffice to say, the notion that the EU will surpass us is simply unfounded any way you slice it.

Ive said it before, ill say it again. If you think these 250 people were the only illegal immigrants Wal-Mart employed, then theres not a lot i can do for you. Keep in mind – Im using Wal-Mart as an EXAMPLE here. Suggesting Wal-Mart is the only TNC that knowingly employs illegal aliens is ridiculous.

Andy – i never questioned Wal-Marts success as a company. I am raising this issue, since you ‘pro enforcement’ folks seem to totally overlook how American TNC’s employ illegal immigrants to cut down on costs.

Taking note from your talking, you seem to think its absolutely fine that large companies employ illegal immigrants, while disagreeing with them coming here the first place. Am i the only one that sees something wrong with this? I never called for illegal immigrants to be paid the minimum wage – although that would simplify matters greatly. I didnt even call for companies to continue hiring illegal aliens.

‘Without bringing in the regulatory agencies?’

You are having a laugh, right?

‘Again, how does WM and others avoid having OSHA, Dept of Labor etc from cracking down on their heads?’

Wal-Mart has already been cracked down on, to an extent. Federal agents have claimed Wal-Mart management knew full well of the illegal immigrants under their employment. All in all however, catched every illegal immigrant working in the US is next to impossible. Illegal immigrants working here also provide a large pool of cheap, yet dubious labor.

Andy, what you are saying here is completely irrational. Its not a tall thing to ask for already profitable TNC’s to not employ illegal aliens. Since you are against people entering the country illegally, its almost unbelievable that you dont agree with my viewpoint. Alas, apparently the free market is unaccountable for any law breaking activity, in your eyes anyway.

I never suggested America was the most ‘corrupt’ country in the world. By lucrative, i mean most profitable in terms on international assets and annual profits. Ive seen several lists, Walmart has been top on a few and within the top 5 on the rest. Its main rivals for top spot are groups like Exxon, BP, Ford, chrysler etc….

As for Baklava’s claim…..Since he/she made the inane claim, i’ll let he/she provide the numbers backing it up. Even if no one else here does, i know its ridiculous to assert that the US receives more immigrants than the rest of the world combined.

Assert about the EU all you want. I’ll let you be in your state of arrogance. Oh, and the new countries of the EU have a population far in excess of 50 million. Poland alone has a total population of nearly 40 million, so that screws that hypothesis.

You’re the one talking, seems to me you could at least keep track of your talking points instead of obfuscating.

Let’s review the first part of the above. Of course you’re questioning WM’s success. You’ve been blaming their vast profits on deliberately hiring illegals at below minimum wages. 1) IIRC Minimum wage laws apply to legal workers, not just anyone that happens to be turning a buck within our borders. I certainly don’t recall seeing a law that says if you hire illegals, you must also pay a minimum wage. 2)SCSI & others have refuted the income in question to sufficiently show that the payout exceeds minimum wage. 3) Lucrative=bad, I already demonstrated that WM isn’t one of the most profitable companies. I’ll take it further to surmise that in terms of a per worker basis, they’re probably not even in the top 10 or even top 50. Bottomline, if there was no lucrative to business, there would be no reason for business and you and the rest of us would be living a very rural subsistence life. Who has time or money for cable TV, Internet, cars, shampoo, name brands accessories when they’re too busy scratching out a hard-scrabble plot of vegetables and hunting their meat? Th pursuit of profit is what has advanced our standard of living and driven the wheels of progress.

Now you say “evidence has suggested..”, earlier you were stating claims as if they were self-evident and true. So which is it? Probable, thus requiring further investigation? Or incontrovertible — case closed — no need for the jury to retire?

Zeek said:”Im sure Many big companies, particularly those in California in Texas would be at a huge loss if they couldnt draw from a pool of dirt cheap, illegal immigrant workers.”

Are you sure about that? Personally, I don’t doubt it, hence the pressure on our politicians to back off. Naturally, there is legitimate concern. Time and time again, when the law-makers rush off to enact new laws, they do so to score re-election points without fully considering potential unintended consequences. The issue of illegals has been percolating for decades and somehow, we expect a magic bullet to fix it with one bill? Right and I have a bridge over the Guadalupe for sale. What/how would you propose we should fix it? I’ve already posted my thots on a rational way forward. All you seem to want to do is point out the hypocrisy of everyone here and tie that in with corporate greed. If we’re so greedy, then why don’t you just leave. No one forcing you to stay here.

Zeek said:”Its an established fact that corporations, big and small employ illegal immigrants for under the minimum wage. Ask me specifically what problem you have with what im saying, and ill provide a source even though i cant link…hmmm.”

Erm, unless I’m mistaken, La Shawn said one can’t hyperlink. She didn’t say anything about spelling out a link to a source. I already provided you two sources. Please do tell how any corporations can pay below minimum wage without cooking the books? Without bringing in the regulatory agencies?

Zeek said:”Its pretty basic logic, im sorry if you dont understand it. Big companies employ illegal immigrants to do various jobs, and pay them substantially less than minimum wage. This isnt a theory, its a fact. Lay out how this isnt true. Companies like Walmart illegally employ these people, knowing full well they can get hard work at next to nothing.”

Basic logic demands that you look at ALL factors, not just the ones that are convenient to your argument. Talking about logic doesn’t make a truth. Rather it is the application of logic that makes the truth. I’m not sure you understand the interplay of contributing cause and effects on the economics of illegal labor. Facts are easily cited.

Again, how does WM and others avoid having OSHA, Dept of Labor etc from cracking down on their heads? To maintain this conspiracy involves too many people pencil-whipping their records. Does WM & others hire probable illegals? Of course. As mentioned by another here, the minute some HR dept tries to validate someone’s queer papers, they’re going to have a horde of screaming moonbats swarming their offices and dragging them off to court and forced to defend charges of racism and what not.

In your world, business can’t win. If they’re scrupulous, they have to defend themselves, plus burdening their competitive edge. If they resign themselves to just accepting the paperwork without due diligence, there accused of hiring illegals in pursuit of lucrative profits (your term). No one cares about the little companies, let’s go after the deep pockets. No matter what WM does, it ain’t good enough. Why? Because they’re a big company and that is an automatic bad.

Zeek said:”Not only is the prospect of work an incentive for people to enter the country illegally, its a virtually unregulated way for corporate bigwigs to exploit yet more people.”

Oh really? Virtually unregulated? Please list the meager laws that permit this exploitation. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps our regulations are so convoluted that corporations have a staff of full time lawyers who do nothing but assist the corporate board in navigating the minefields of rules? Sometimes, the best thing to do is just move along, don’t ask, don’t tell and hope it doesn’t blow up.

Exploit more people? I suppose you were a fly on the wall and heard Mr CEO say to Ms HR, “Dadgummit, our labor costs are too high! Can’t we get more wetbacks in here so we can exploit them? The 05s are here and I need to pay for that new Maybach”. That is just too simplistic. The real argument you should be espousing is that we need to streamline and untangle the rules. If a corporation plays by the rules, they lose business & profits, if they cheat, they get busted. So they are forced to outsource in order to reduce costs and slough off the risk. Is the lowest bidder cheating? Probably so, but that’s no longer a concern since the risk is borne by the contractor. The justification is that everyone else is subcontracting and saving millions, so they will have too as well, in order to remain competitive. Like I said before, WM started out with lots of noble intentions, but then got whacked by the reality stick.

Plus consider this. If WM HQ’s governor of Arkansas and later president could sit there and ask with a straight face, “What is ‘Is?” Why shouldn’t corporations follow their political leadership and ask “What is ‘Illegal’? That’s the thing that liberals didn’t consider in rushing to defend Slick Willy and the unintended consequences of rationalization. If you can’t hold a politician to ethical standards, by what right can politicians hold corporations to ethical scandals? Folks like to talk about Enron, MCI et al, but conveniently forget that all of the shenangians happened on the “By Any Means Necessary” crowd’s watch.

“Walmart is the most lucrative transnational corporation (TNC) in the world, with the largest profits and international assets. Its followed by giants like British Petroleum, Toyota, Ford, Exxon etc, etc.” What do you mean by lucrative? That is rather vague. Is that anything like America is the most corrupt and evil country in the world?

As for WM’s growth in other countries. Yeah, so what? Everytime WM opens another store in Germany, it’s an occassion to celebrate yet another crack in Germany’s social contract with the Germans. The retail industry is so overprotective, they need a chain like WM to come in and upset the apple cart. Did you know it is illegal in Germany for any store to advertise sale prices? While the traditional retail outlets are dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century, it is corporations like WM, Home Depot, McDonalds that keep pushing back the hours of business and emancipating the consumers. Bravo for capitalism and the destruction of socialist polices. Now that’s what I call progress.

Also I missed my hypocrisy. I’d appreciate it if you could show me where I was talking out of both sides of my neck. Or did you get me confused with someone else. I neither endorse nor condemn the situation other than to acknowledge that it is a serious problem that requires an in-depth analysis and careful development of a series of solutions. Slapping a bandaid on it will only cause the sore to fester. I’m not convinced that this bill will do even half of what is hyped. In this case, it is better to do nothing legislatively and really conduct an objective bottom-up review, than to react rashly and pay for the multiple mistakes that are sure to follow. That’s my personal conservative view and if you had read, let alone understood, any or all of my posts to date, you’d know that.

As for accusing you of being all those people. I wasn’t necessarily stating it as such, I was addressing you and others that have the same worldview. Sometimes you guys read so much alike, I have difficulty telling ya’ll apart. You’ve admitted to being both ElMaricahi/Mariachi & Zeek. I also do note that the name Omar rang a bell with some people.

In closing, Baklava’s claim would be ridiculous if you had some numbers proving it. All I’m saying is that it sounds plausible enough to me.

The fact that 10 new countries joined the EU has nothing to do with immigration. IIRC, those 10 countries represent a population of approximately 50 million, thus feeding Cheinrac’s delusional hypothesis that the EU-25′s population being larger than the US will equate to an EU25 economy larger and stronger than the US. Bwahahaha. I can categorically state that the EU will never surpass the US for as long as he lives, based on simple demographics and economics.

If Mexico became the 51st State, it wouldn’t increase, on the contrary it would reduce our immigrant head count, since 10 million illegal Mexicans would now be Americans, along with the rest of the Mexicans all the way down to the Guatamala & Belize border. — America being where ever our borders roam.

Now, as for Wal-Mart.
250 over 61 stores is actually a small number. When I worked for Bradlees, a night time cleaning crew was usually 3-5 people. That works out, in that those 61 stores would average about 4 workers each out of that 250. Again, given the scope of the sting, if there were more stores (and they may have missed a few), we’d have hear about it. The fed and states would have kept on looking until they ran out of stores to check, or ceased to find violations. And keep in mind, these contracting companies handled mutiple stores, and not just Wal-Marts.
In the US, Wal-Mart has 3661 stores (550 of which are Sams). How many empolyees does that imply? Toss in the shipping fleet, the warehouses, the regional and national office staffs, HR, payroll and other sundry workers. How many people do you think work directly for WalMart? It’s over 1.2 million people. That is 4,8000+ employees for each of the 250 illegal alien floor cleaners.
Now add up the folks that owe their jobs at other companies in large part to servicing or providing for Wal-Mart. This includes the subcontractors and suppliers with large or exclusive contracts. I have no idea how large this number is.
But even without counting the ‘camp followers’, given the size of Wal-Mart, 250 is a # that can easily be over looked.
How about Ford?

Since linking is not allowed, I’ll tell you how to find the article. Go to city-journal.org and type “The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave” into the search box in the upper right corner. The article was written by Heather MacDonald.

I read this article shortly after Bush announced his “amnesty for illegal aliens” plan in January and was absolutely fuming by the time I had completed the article. Most of us know little to nothing about the crimes committed by illegal aliens; so I will forewarn you that you may find much of MacDonald’s article to be a shock. However, I think it incredibly important that more of our country wake up to the facts surrounding the incarceration and subsequent care (three square meals a day, medical attention, etc.) that we as taxpayers fork over each year for the illegal aliens in our prison system. In addition, I think it important that we shed more light on the fact that not all illegal aliens fit the rosy picture painted by Liberals that the illegals are here to find work and raise their family to have it better than they did. Many illegal aliens who are here commit violent crimes, and when all else fails, will criss-cross the border as necessary to avoid apprehension by law-enforcement authorities (who already cannot do much because their hands have been tied by the politically-correct crowd).

Ms. MacDonald’s article is quite a marathon read — it’s several pages in length. But please don’t let the length of the article dissuade you from reading it. She has gathered a lot of evidence to support her claims and has been very thorough in her research. It’s a very good article.

Right….now on to the important stuff. Employed illegal immigrants. Again, you bring up the point of contractors, somehow clearly Wal-Mart of any wrong doing. Well, ignoring the fact it is official Wal-Mart policy to ensure they arnt employing aliens, via contractors or otherwise…..Evidence has suggested Wal-Mart knew full well of the illegal immigrants under their emplyoment. 250 spread across 60 stores is no small number, and its certainly too large a number as for it to be oblivious to Wal-Mart management. Now, Wal-Mart owns over 2000 stores across the nation. Even being VERY generous in the estimatations, simple logic suggests they employed at least 1000 across their stores.

By no stretch of the imagination does the USA receive more immigrants than every other nation in the world combined. I cant believe anyone could even consider this to a feasible idea, especially seeing as how 10 Eastern European countries have recently joined the EU….creating a small flood of people in Western Europe.

As for accusing me of being all these people….all i can say is, sad.