Why are CNN’s ratings so lousy and FOX’s so good? If you’re a liberal reader of my blog, I ask you to seriously consider why and share your opinions on this thread.
We conservatives believe CNN’s leftist bias is obvious, and we’re certain this is the main reason the cable network continues to sink while FOX continues to rise. At the same time, FOX is without a doubt pro-American, and CNN is perceived as anti-American. Both networks are biased, but pro-American coverage appears to be the more acceptable slant, at least to the viewing audience. Is this a fair assessment to you?
Addendum: A liberal reader sent this. I skimmed it. If you have some time on your hands, read it and e-mail a thoughtful assessment, and I’ll post it. I’m sure the article is loaded with CNN spin, but I don’t want to offer my usual commentary without reading it carefully.
Update: Speaking of freedom, pro-America, etc., it seems appropriate to post my second favorite movie scene of all time. (Kevin Costner’s closing monologue in “JFK” is my favorite.) It has to do with freedom and sacrifice:
KAFFEE
You had Markinson sign a phony transfer
order–ROSS
Judge–KAFFEE
You doctored the log books.ROSS
Damnit Kaffee!!KAFFEE
I’ll ask for the forth time. You ordered–JESSEP
You want answers?KAFFEE
I think I’m entitled to them.JESSEP
You want answers?!KAFFEE
I want the truth.JESSEP
You can’t handle the truth!And nobody moves.
JESSEP
(continuing)
Son, we live in a world that has walls.
And those walls have to be guarded by men
with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? You,
Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater
responsibility than you can possibly
fathom. You weep for Santiago and you
curse the marines. You have that luxury.
You have the luxury of not knowing what I
know: That Santiago’s death, while tragic,
probably saved lives. And my existence,
while grotesque and incomprehensible to
you, saves lives.(beat)
You don’t want the truth. Because deep
down, in places you don’t talk about at
parties, you want me on that wall. You me
there (sic)
(boasting)
We use words like honor, code,
loyalty…we use these words as the
backbone to a life spent defending
something. You use ‘em as a punchline.
(beat)
I have neither the time nor the
inclination to explain myself to a man who
rises and sleeps under the blanket of the
very freedom I provide, then questions the
manner in which I provide it. I’d prefer
you just said thank you and went on your
way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a
weapon and stand a post. Either way, I
don’t give a damn what you think you’re
entitled to. (Emphasis added)
Update II: A couple of people thought I got the movie references mixed up. I didn’t. The scene above is from “A Few Good Men,” which I linked to with “Love it.” It is my second favorite. The closing monologue in “JFK,” which is not posted, is my first favorite.
{ 1 trackback }
{ 58 comments }
Well… I’m a liberal Democrat, and I watch both CNN and FOX equally… This is just my opinion, which I KNOW your regular commentators will soon skewer and tear apart,
BUT YOU ASKED FOR IT:
I watch CNN to get the real story… too me, they are pretty centrist, and attempt to be objective in their coverage of the news… I don’t doubt that there are probably more liberals than conservatives on staff… but its obvious that they go out of their way and try to be objective… I then always turn to FAUX (err, FOX) to see how the GOP will spin the news… I have watched FOX for years, and they have no pretense whatsoever of being unbiased, despite their “fair and balanced” mantra… in fact, it appears they get a kick out of being so incredibly biased to the right, and then with a smirk and a wink-wink, saying ‘fair and balanced’, knowing that no one actually believes that… I have spoken with various conservative Republican family members, and they all admit they watch FOX specifically because it is so pro-GOP…
Again, that was just my point of view as a liberal Democrat, and I know most of your readers will vehemently disagree…
As for the ratings… I read somewhere that there are two ways of tabulating ratings… CNN wins for number of distinct viewers watching, but the average time they watch is relatively short… the second way, the one that usually gets reported on because it has the most impact with adverstisers, factors in length of time that the viewer watches… and when that factor is included, FOX wins hands-down. I think that is driven more by the fact that people sit down and actually watch a full hour each of O’Reilly, Greta, etc… From what I’ve read, FOX has fewer numbers of distinct viewers checking in, but their viewers watch for extended periods of time… I’ll try to find the link and email it to LaShawn.
CNN is the vision of a man who gave a billion dollars to the United Nations. They want to be the internationalist, the Davos man and the nuanced continental who appeased fascist and contained communist. Moral relevance is the cancer that eats away at their vision because they are to sophisticated to believe in evil. All of those people above belong to a elite group of socialist that pay each other in significance and favoritism. Just like the party members who worked their way in to the Politburo, they got to have vacation homes, nice apartments and never stand in line for bread. The moral force behind their morality is materialism dreamed up by Marx. The Internationalist is that person who has gone underground after the collapse of the Communist state and hold their secret meetings at the UN. When a country has a right to vote in a international body and does not extend those rights to its own citizens is just a travesty. The American people woke up after September 11 and saw that this benign doctrine of the UN and the internationalist was working hard to bring down the United States as much as the Islamist fascist. Our idealism about what we thought about the UN had came crashing down also since we saw how the corruption has infected the diplomats. They can hide it and not reveal it but as Americans we need to be transparent and these organizations fall very short. We put an end to Internationalist secular humanism and replaced it with our original philosophy which is American pragmatism. The average America loves their country because they do believe in the American Revolution and it’s manifest destiny and do believe we are endowed by our creator of rights. It seems that this idealism is taking root in a desert and once again from Europe to Asia we have planted our idealism and it produces results. Globalization is a fancy word for American capitalism and it is misunderstood because free trade brings middle classes which brings peace. We are watching Fox because they mirror those values American hold dear and rejecting CNN since it found out that it hated America in some secret Chatham rules forum in Davos Switzerland.
James, that pretty much sums it up. Pro vs Anti-American broadcasting.
Cnn lost viewers because they discontinued the puppet show.
CNN isn’t centrist. It’s leftist. And it’s also telling you how to think. Sorry, I make up my own mind after looking at several sources, including CNN. Usually (66% of the time) Fox is inline with my view…Sometimes it’s not…Which to me, means more balanced than the 99.9% of the time I disagree with CNN. It’s all speculative of course, but CNN preaches to you. Fox tells you what’s going on. And leaves you to make your own decisions. Not to mention that it does hold America close to its heart, which it SHOULD do.
While watching CNN Headline News at lunch yesterday, they were running an expose on the Supreme Courts taking up of the 10 Commandments issue. Seemingly, CNN (at least the Headline News division) doesn’t think we should bow American Jurisprudence to the 10 Commandments or to religious deference. However, I missed the companion peice on Supreme Court justices baseing opnions on International Instititutions (the Child Death Penalty case) rather than the US Constitution (Yes, I’m talking about you Justice Kennedy and also your fellow travelor Justice Sandra ‘Dee’ O’Connor).
Lets also take a look at the current DNC chair Howard Dean and his comment about hotel staff. Don’t remember CNN saying much about that. But lets put those words in the mouth of ….hmmmm …. oh, I’m having a hard time thinking of anyone …… just on the tip of my tongue ….oh lets just say Trent Lott and see what the CNN reaction would be. I think we know from the January, 2000 fiasco what would happen there.
Not neccesarily a CNN only deal but lets also look at would be Presidential assasin Abu Ali. When that story broke, he was just a class valedictorian. I didn’t find out he was valedictorian at the Islamic Saudi School until John Gibson (FOXNews afternoon talking head) spilled the beans that afternoon. In light of the recent report on the Saudis funding American Mosque related schools in teaching hate America, I wonder why that could be?
CNN/ABC/CBS/NBC/The Washington Post/The New York Times all appear to be toward the center, providing one is looking at them while standing on the extreme left edge of the platform. Optical illusions can be fun.
One question keeps coming to mind. Why is it considered by the left to be a fault for a U.S. news organization to be pro-American? In WWII, Eisenhower let the press corps in on the secret invasion plan for Italy, and not one reporter blabbed. I daresay that would be a foolish thing for any commander to do these days. But back then, most reporters’ allegiances were to their country first, not to their newspapers or to some foolishly distorted concept of objectivity.
RedBeard,
I would say that CNN/ABC/CBS/NBC/The Washington Post/The New York Times ARE INDEED pro-American… but my idea of pro-American is probably different than your idea…
but then again, you probably think the nearly half the country that didn’t vote for Bush are a bunch of unpatriotic Communist, terrorist sympathizers, right?
Which is why nothing will really come of this debate… Everyone will say: “The news sources I agree with are centrist, those that I disagree with are biased to the left/right.”
I got a pet theory of mine: CNN is losing viewers to FOX because FOX is reporting stories that CNN keeps missing. CNN was all over the stories about soldiers dying in Iraq, things going wrong, vehicles in a war zone without armor, Abu Ghraib, etc. — but you had to turn to FOX to get anything specific about things our soldiers were doing to help Iraq transform itself into something resembling a democracy.
Also I suspect a lot of people just get worn down with all the dark spin put on good news. Good-news stories get a “but” appended to them, and bad-news stories don’t. At least that’s how it seems to work on CNN. You don’t get that same patina of eternal pessimism on FOX.
“but then again, you probably think the nearly half the country that didn’t vote for Bush are a bunch of unpatriotic Communist, terrorist sympathizers, right?”
Jab, is that statement reflective of the level to which you wish this discussion to sink?
Okay, I’ve read through the link in the addendum, and I’m not convinced of several points.
“But in the race between these two for-profit ventures, the bottom line is the bottom line: From their capitalistic perspective, the channel that gets more ad revenue is winning the real ratings war. Earnings for the two channels are a contentious subject–since neither network reports its revenues separate from its corporate parent, and each claims to earn more income than its rival. But many industry analysts say CNN still makes more money. Stock analyst Michael Gallant told the Chicago Tribune (11/28/03) that while Fox is growing faster, CNN is still earning about $200 million more per year than Fox (Television Week , 10/20/03). ”
Those statistics are from a year and a half ago. When you add the fact that the figures mentioned would be for a period several months before that, you’re looking at figures that are from close to two years old.
All of the stats they reference from the Iraq war are two year old too.
This info is relevant for the period back then, but what about no in late 2004 and early 2005? If I was trading stock, I wouldn’t base my decisions on buying or selling on 2003 prices, but the current info.
The info mentioned here is useless for telling which network is currently ahead, though it will be useful for determining the overall trend once we get some more current data.
“Even among Fox ’s core audience of conservatives, CNN has an edge in total viewership. A study by the ad agency Carat USA (Hollywood Reporter , 8/13/03) found that 37 percent of viewers calling themselves “very conservative” watch CNN in the course of a week, while only 32 percent tune to Fox . ”
How big was the survey size? Where was the survey held? What was the margin of error (5% to me looks remarkably close to the margin of error in a lot of surveys)
About the ad prices
The article does mention the idea that the CNN and FOX audiences have different demographics. I’d tend to agree with that, and argue that the difference in ad rates are irrelevant to the dispute about which network gets more actual views. We’re debating the number of viewers, not their demographics.
This article would be much more effective in the argument if it were updated. Overall, it just provides a historical portrait of mid 2003 when the actual picture could be completely different now.
Jab, I can’t comment for RedBeard, but I can for myself.
yes, I think you people who voted for Harry Kerry are un-American, based on the fact that John Kerry is a communist sympathizer himself. Hmm…Lies to a senate panel about war crimes. Tries to visit Hanoi (Just like Hanoi Jane…Another Traitor) during the war…And you vote for him. Sorry. You ARE a communist sympathizer and Un-American to boot.
Dan,
That was a hilarious satire! Thanks for the laugh!
but my idea of pro-American is probably different than your idea…
So what is your idea of pro-American?
My idea is being a patriot to the American Revolution, which was not a bloodless affair where people took up arms and pens to put down tyrrany.
My idea of pro-American is standing up for the principles of the US Constitution and the rights of men. It does not mean to pick and choose what ammendments I like and dislike.
My idea of pro-American is our Federal form of goverment that is a republican form of represenative democacy.
My idea of pro-American is to pursue happiness and that was defined as a pusuit of knowledge that can only really make you free and happy according to John Adams.
My idea of pro-American is the free market system that our founders borrowed from Adam Smith unlike socialism which was a economic philosophy that was created to hold the serfs to the state’s fiefdom rather than the lords like in medieval Europe.
To be a pro-American then you have to believe in the values of the founding fathers and their Revolution??? I do and that makes me Pro-American
Jab,
If you are getting the “real” story from CNN then you would’ve believed in 1995 that the Republicans wanted to cut Medicare by $270 Billion dollars because that is all the Democrats and CNN were saying over and over and over for 5 months
In 1995 Fox News didn’t exist however talk radio did and CNN ratings have been going down for more than a decade because CNN has a pattern a persistant pattern of not telling the truth.
The medicare budget was going to increase by 7% per year for 7 years (more than 49% compounded) and we tried to get Dan Rather to state that and he wouldn’t.
It’s all about perspective and if you think the lie is more accurate, then you’ll keep tuning in. But once you start to see that you aren’t getting the news you’ll stop watching as more than 50% of CNN watchers have done.
It’s more complex then that.
CNN has a very strong conflict bias that even surpasses their lefty bias. Most news does, we don’t really have news in this country we have “news entertainment” in the same way that professional wresting is “sports entertainment”. So everything on CNN is spun to be as exciting as possible. In a way, it most resembles the local news: “Tune in to Action News tonight to find out if your local restaurant will kill you.”
Fox tones that down quite a bit in favor of a patriotism bias.
Its easier to compensate for a patriotism bias then a conflict bias, so its easier to get the reality from Fox, IMHO.
I watch FOX News to be entertained. Because it’s, well, so darn entertaining.
And, La Shawn, I do take slight issue with your comment of Fox News being “pro-America.” I don’t think any news organization should be a cheerleader for either side of any war. In my years of journalism classes and training I’ve realized to be skeptical of any journalist or journalism outlet that claims it’s “fair and balanced.”
I don’t watch CNN because they’re simply not as entertaining as yellin’ and screamin’ Hannity and O’Reilly. But yes, I do feel CNN plays to the left, although not as blatently political as FOX is hard-right. Most of the line-up over at FOX is conservative. I’d have to do some research to find out the swingings of many over at CNN.
I watch CNN to get the real story
LOL,what a true believer. Like when Eason Jordan admitted that CNN deliberately ignored Saddam Hussein’s atrocities in exchange for access to Iraq?
James Kaplin,
I believe in all those things as well, as do the vast, vast majority of Democrats. Conservatives whine incessantly when liberals stereotype them. But then, you must have this ridiculously stereotypical view of Democrats if you don’t think they cherish those same American values.
La Shawn,
I had something nice and prepared but I accidentally closed the window!
All I’ll say in regards to your comment of FOX being “pro-America:” As a hard-core fan of journalism, I’d rather not see any cheerleaders root for any side of a war. It’s hard to take a network seriously when they continue to proclaim they’re “fair and balanced” when so many of their anchors and “news”-team are aligned as conservatives.
Pro-America is fine with me. I just don’t think it (or anti-) belongs in any respectable journalism organization.
You’re wrong, Mike. I think the American media should most definitely be pro-America, the country that allows the media freedom of the press. That doesn’t mean they’re blind to something the U.S. does wrong, but to constantly (and glaringly) slant stories against the interests of their own country? Come on.
BC monkey is quite correct, the only data we have on the rating “cumes” the article speaks of is approximately 2 years old, making it a bit difficult to offer a proper analysis of how things stand today.
But one thing of great interest I noted about the “cume” score, the only way in which CNN supposedly was topping Fox in the ratings 2 years ago is if you considered all of the people tuning in to watch for 6 minutes or less.
Now, if I’m an advertiser and I’m trying to decide who to purchase air time with, CNN or Fox, it would be pretty silly of me to look at the “cume” score. People who are only tuning in for 6 minutes or less will probably never see my add, so my advertising dollar is wasted on them.
I think the long and the short of it is this, CNN does have a significant number of viewers, but then again it’s been around for a long, long time. From what I can see it’s ratings, both cumulative and otherwise, have been declining steadily over the past few years.
Fox News, on the other hand, seems to be growing in viewership rather than loosing it. So for me the bottom line would be that Fox news is definately “winning” in this regard.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Stepdad
Baklava,
You are being completely misleading with your attempt to “prove” CNN mislead back in 1995. How ironic.
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) predicted that the cost of Medicare would increase by 67% per person covered over the course of the seven years from 1995 to 2002. Gingrich proposed increasing Medicare by only 40% per person covered.
So yes, in a sense, the GOP was for increasing Medicare in absolute terms, but the increases were far below what would be required to maintain the program at current levels of benefits, according to the CBO. Thus, services would have to be cut.
If you factor in the increased costs of Medicare over that 7 year period, then Medicare budget proposed by Gingrich was a cut in RELATIVE terms.
You were’nt intentionally trying to mislead, were you?
Lets take a look at Fox news starting with Brit Humes show.
On the conservative side you’ve got Brit, Krauthammer, Kristol, and Barnes
On the liberal side you’ve got Juan Williams, Ceci Connelly, and Mara Liasson
O’Reilly, conservative (even though he denies it)
Hannity conservative. Colmes liberal
Greta liberal
The only reason you see a difference is that everyone on CNN is liberal from Paula Zahn to Aaron Brown.
But La Shawn,
Free Press is a great thing. Am I to believe that because the Constitution permits freedom of the press that the press should “payback” the founders by rooting for our side in a war? Sorry, but I respectfully don’t sign on to that. Just like I wouldn’t want someone anti-American reporting in the press.
All I can think of when you say the press is pro-American is the German media that so allowed Hitler to do with them what he wanted. The German media were his propaganda machines. This is just my example. I don’t mean to offend anyone and am certainly not implying that someone in this country is playing the Hitler role.
But, if you’re looking for pro-American media, then why doesn’t the government just take it over? I learned the Canons of journalism more than a decade ago and I can honestly say any network advocating any position (in its news reports, of course; not commentary) on anything is in severe breach of Article V in the Canons: impartiality. I’m a purist about many things. Good journalism is one of them. And, as far as I’m concerned 95% of all journalism out there is bad. Which is why it’s important for all people to have developed and keen awarenesses to everything in the news so they can dissect all of the points of view being spewed in “journalism.”
Stepdad,
You misread the article.
The “cume” only counts viewers who watched six minutes OR MORE… not less.
I forgot to mention Kondracke as a liberal for Brits show
As far as CNN what I’ve noticed is when they interview a Republican its usually McHagar (McCain, Hagel, Lugar) all moderates
Fox gives the more conservatives a voice. Frist, Santorum, DeLay
I rarely watch any of the news networks. Both are way too biased for me. I consider myself to be to the right of centrist. I was very amused on election night. CNN was in complete meltdown. Amusingly pathetic.
I do not watch either Fox or CNN. I agree with most of the posts, Fox right, CNN left.
Fox, neo-conservative, will ALWAYS back Bush, CNN will never back Bush.
I am a Paleo-conservative. The only show I follow is “The McLaughlin Group”. On it they have a neo, paleo, liberal, and a guest.
Jab
Then why did you portray your pro-Americanism different than mine. It was you who was stereotyping the pro-America.
“I would say that CNN/ABC/CBS/NBC/The Washington Post/The New York Times ARE INDEED pro-American… but my idea of pro-American is probably different than your idea…
All I asked was what is your idea of Pro-American.
How can these news organization be Pro-American when they pay lip service to the troops but hang the abu-graib prison rap like it had the moral equivelance of the mass graves filled by Sadaam. Mary Mapes was the lead liberal on that story and the NYT beat the drumm everyday until it angered the enemies of our state to decapitate people in the name of the prison scandal. How is it my dear sir that you see putting our troops in harms way and aiding the enemy to their cause pro-American. CNN’s story with Peter Arnet and war crimes in Vietnam… Pro-American. ABC, NBC, and the Washington Post may have left leanings but I would not say they aren’t pro-America. There are actually people out in this world who don’t believe there is a true war on terrorism and it comes from the Euro-rabia press and our fair and balanced news media loves to mimick them. What about the marine who shot dead the enenmy in the mosque in Falluja. We had a reporter run to NBC to get the story out. Falluja should have been the story because when historians go back they are going to say that was one of the most effective offensives in US Marine history. Then their is the Palestine hotel that was hit with a shell from a US tank that was being shot at my mortar fire and a journalist with binoculars in the US Marine sector was mistaken for a spoter for the morter fire at the Palestine hotel which was in a hot zone. This is the infamous American troops are targeting journalist story. Then the journalist with out borders misquote a reporter from the Boston Globe and Mr Jordan ran with it at Davos. Tell me now is that Pro-American or is that knee jerk reaction of stereotyping. Do you support the war, do you support spreading democracy because you can not have one without the other in Iraq just like it took a war to impose our will on Japan and Germany. The Democrats were once again on the wrong side of history and will pay for it since they want to have a internationalist view instead of the Pro-American view. If this was 65 yeas ago if you were against the war, would you be pro-American? The difference is that they were fascist and Sadaam was a Socialist like Asaad in Syria and Europe loves socialism and so does the Left in this country. Oh yea, McCarthey was right because their were commie spokes all over the place since it was proven from the old Soviet archives!!! The News never gave us the record because the never wanted too and may I ask is that pro-American?????
Mike M, were the journalists I mentioned from WWII doing something wrong by not betraying their country? If they had refused to keep the secret on some warped basis of journalistic independence, that would have made them fair and balanced between us and the enemy. How wonderful.
A free press and a patriotic press are not mutually exclusive.
Fox has more viewers for a longer amount of time because of the wrestling type atmosphere, which CNN actually started with “Crossfire”. People love drama, love to watch a good “food fight”. Fox’s political shows are very similar to watching WWE, and Middle Americans love it!
No, no, no, Mike. I’m not saying media should be part of the government or anything like that, and you KNOW that. A free press is VITAL to a democracy, and I wouldn’t have it any other way, even if the media is anti-American. But just as they have a right to demonize the very government that provides them the freedom to demonize the government, I have every right to criticize the media. Bunch of hacks.
What I am referring to is the tendency to seek out bad things to report or anti-American slants to pursue. Listening to someone like Katie Couric, for example, you’d get the impression that America, the greatest country on the planet, was Nazi Germany, for crying out loud. She should strut her little self over to a Muslim country and see what they think of women like her. Hack.
I am a Liberal Republican and I think the people who watch Fox News are the same group who in the ’80’s thought you could get AIDs from giving blood.
The only way CNN out-rates Fox as some here have contended is if you count the 2 million people a day who pass by the TV monitors at airports and notice that CNN is on. And when you finally get to your gate and realize it’s on there, too, you go to the newstand, buy a MSM newspaper, skip their version of the news and work a crossword. That’s the main reason MSN newspapers are still in business!
LaShawn,
That was NOT from the movie JFK, that was Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson in “A Few Good Men.”
LaShawn,
I apologize. Awfully sorry…
I see that you already knew that… I read the post too quickly.
Obviously, you knew that if it was your second favorite scene!
And what’s the moral to that scene?
That it’s O.K. to lie, to murder, to dishonor the names of innocent men… because the ends justify the means?
That if you wrap up your misdeeds in the flag and pseudo-patriotism, that it makes you above reproach? That even if a fellow military person critisizes you, you must be un-American and unpatriotic?
CNN nor Dan Rather could be bothered with stating all of the facts like you stated them.
The message people heard for 5 months was that Republicans were cutting Medicare.
It would’ve been nice if you could’ve substituted for Wolfblitzer or Dan Rather one day so that the audience could hear your message.
I wasn’t trying to mislead. I was reporting the facts that CNN and CBS and others wouldn’t say as much as you said.
I reported the facts and so did you but they didn’t and you wouldn’t have been informed with the real story as you characterized. (if you thought CNN was telling you the truth only.
That was just one egregious 5 month long example.
Thanks for playing.
But you lost that one.
….. and that concludes our man on the street interview concerning the Republicans trying to cut Medicare by $270 Billion. Back to you Jab….. I mean wolfblitzer
And what’s the moral to that scene?
The moral is a two way street. Is moral to have a young marine murdered because the establishment has put rules on leaders on people who should have never been elevated to a status of marine. He had this marine killed so that one day in Falluja that he will not get 15 marines killed because he was incompetent. We know that murder is wrong and the Colonel was morally wrong in the context of a peaceful world. Would he be morally wrong if it was up to that company of marines to bring down an enemy that was planning to use some type of weapon of mass destruction to wipe out 50,000 people and that incompetent marine was that guy you relied on. Morality is only scene through the eyes of what’s relevant.
“An Army is a collection of armed men obliged to obey one man.
Every change in the rules which impairs the principle weakens the army”
-William Tecumseh Sherman
“There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory,
but boys, it is all hell.”
-William Tecumseh Sherman
James opined:
“he had this marine killed so that one day in Falluja that he will not get 15 marines killed because he was incompetent.”
Talk about moral relativism.
It’s good to know that you consider it understandable that a U.S. citizen and soldier might by MURDERED (not killed in action, but murdered by his leaders) for the greater good.
“Love it.”
and yet, dude was a criminal.
That if you wrap up your misdeeds in the flag and pseudo-patriotism, that it makes you above reproach? That even if a fellow military person critisizes you, you must be un-American and unpatriotic?
I sat next to three men at a club that I beong to called the Eintracht Singing Society which is a German Mennechor club. These two men of the baby boom generation was discussing the morality and misdeeds of droppint the bomb on Hiroshima. When then man who was sitting right next to me who at one time was my health teacher in Junior High school got up and told the moral philosopher to go and shove it because they had no clue what it was like to be sitting on your helmut on the black sands wishing that it was you that was dead instead of your 6 buddies. This man is a man’s man and has always been stern and together but in that one moment he pointed at them with a tears in his eyes and said you two stupid bastards were not there at Iwo and I was a dead man if we attack Japan!!! I never knew in my life that Ralph Pue was a Marine in World War II and also never knew he was at Iwo either. We remembered that invasion last month 60 yeas ago and people like Mr Pugh have taught me that it was him that made me free and not the media!!! Wrap him in a flag because I support the military because I don’t mistrust it because it was the Continental Army that one my American Revolution. Sounds like a few Americans have a problem actually trusting our military. It was politicians that lost Vietnam!!!!!!!
Jab wants justification on why I used the word “Killed”
Book 6, Chapter 11
What is called judgement, in virtue of which men are said to ‘be sympathetic judges’ and to ‘have judgement’, is the right discrimination of the equitable. This is shown by the fact that we say the equitable man is above all others a man of sympathetic judgement, and identify equity with sympathetic judgement about certain facts. And sympathetic judgement is judgement which discriminates what is equitable and does so correctly; and correct judgement is that which judges what is true.
Now all the states we have considered converge, as might be expected, to the same point; for when we speak of judgement and understanding and practical wisdom and intuitive reason we credit the same people with possessing judgement and having reached years of reason and with having practical wisdom and understanding. For all these faculties deal with ultimates, i.e. with particulars; and being a man of understanding and of good or sympathetic judgement consists in being able judge about the things with which practical wisdom is concerned; for the equities are common to all good men in relation to other men. Now all things which have to be done are included among particulars or ultimates; for not only must the man of practical wisdom know particular facts, but understanding and judgement are also concerned with things to be done, and these are ultimates. And intuitive reason is concerned with the ultimates in both directions; for both the first terms and the last are objects of intuitive reason and not of argument, and the intuitive reason which is presupposed by demonstrations grasps the unchangeable and first terms, while the intuitive reason involved in practical reasonings grasps the last and variable fact, i.e. the minor premiss. For these variable facts are the starting-points for the apprehension of the end, since the universals are reached from the particulars; of these therefore we must have perception, and this perception is intuitive reason.
This is why these states are thought to be natural endowments — why, while no one is thought to be a philosopher by nature, people are thought to have by nature judgement, understanding, and intuitive reason. This is shown by the fact that we think our powers correspond to our time of life, and that a particular age brings with it intuitive reason and judgement; this implies that nature is the cause. (Hence intuitive reason is both beginning and end; for demonstrations are from these and about these.) Therefore we ought to attend to the undemonstrated sayings and opinions of experienced and older people or of people of practical wisdom not less than to demonstrations; for because experience has given them an eye they see aright.
We have stated, then, what practical and philosophic wisdom are, and with what each of them is concerned, and we have said that each is the virtue of a different part of the soul.
Aristotle – The Nicomachean Ethics
My intuitive reason and judgement brought me to use the word Killed. My reasoning was which was worse, the death of one man or 50,000!!!
Cool commentator:
You are so right about CNN in meltdown during election night. I was so nauseated by Aaron Brown by the end of the evening, that I refused to watch anymore. I was on vacation, the cable system there didn’t carry Fox, and I protested to the management.
Then in January, I fired off a protest email to CNN during the inauguration ceremony — They were the only network to cut-away during the singing of “God Bless America”, introducing panel discussion of future partisan agenda for the next four years. Every other network carried the soloist, uninterrupted. Just another case of their planned censorship — they obviously had this all set up ahead of time, after reviewing the program sequence. And then to introduce partisan discussion, rather than a celebration of our constitution operating during difficult. I was incensed. It was pure censorship of a public ceremony.
This is why the liberals are so out of touch. They can’t even understand why their ratings are in the toilet.
Quite simple really, the American People are sick and tired of hearing night after night, by some schlepp from canada, constantly tell them how bad a country the United States is.
When Fox came along it was a breath of fresh air, somebody was finally telling the WHOLE truth about what was really going on. Not half-truthes or even forged documents claiming them to be true. I predict CNN and the rest of the Alphabet networks will continue to nosedive in the ratings department until someone whose is not a “”"Journalist”"”" figures it out.
They used to be reporters, ah the good ole days.
Mark
Wherever you see CNN on the political spectrum, center, left or right… is the message all that different from ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC etc? IMO, no, not really. The difference is that CNN is on 24/7 with the news, not just a few hours a day.
FOX, again regardless of where you see them on the spectrum, isn’t the same in message and presentation. They stand out from the competition. That, I think, is why they are growing and doing so at the competitions’ expense. Like when Burger King began making burgers ‘your way’ and Wendy’s stayed open late… the question is will it be a novelty act or sustained growth?
I’m leaning towards the latter, but I imagine actus and jab may disagree with me
Pssst… La Shawn, that’s not from JFK. That’s from “A Few Good Men”, and it’s Nicholson and Cruise going at it. I agree, though, GREAT quote!
RepJ – Jab thought I got it mixed up, too.
Read this again:
“…it seems appropriate to post my second favorite movie scene of all time. (Kevin Costner’s closing monologue in “JFK” is my favorite.)”
“I agree, though, GREAT quote! ”
Does everyone who watches that movie forget that the heroes were questioning the bad guy in the name of a dead marine? one of those men “provide us with the blanket of freedom”? One who no longer has the choice to shut up in front someone wrapped up in the flag?
James Kaplin, good work.
Semantics aside, as I recall it, in the flick, IIRC it was a beating gone bad. Having a blanket party used to be de riguer for maintaining unit discipline. In this case, the guy died from complications as a result of the beatings. Where Jessup failed as a leader was in the coverup, but this can be attributed to the egalitarian PC notion that everyone has something valuable to “say” even if they’re a greenhorn idiot.
On this score, I have mixed feelings because at heart I’m a wuss and was glad that they banned hitting recruits barely a year before I got in. And I would hate the thot of having my NCO punching my lights out for something idiotic that I was wont to do
Altho, blanket parties continued to happen during my time, but given the annonymous nature of the event, it was hard for the beatee to press charges.
OTOH, I have witnessed some that truly deserved to get some common sense beaten into them. Moreso when I assumed responsibility for others, there were times I really wanted to punch someone and be done with it (hit and forget). But since rules are rules, all I can do is write them up, which more often than not then goes into their permanent record.
For a career type, given a choice, I believe most would rather take the licking than have something negative in their record. But that’s the way it is these days.
LaShawn,
Good morning. I just had to post after seeing the scene from “A Few Good Men.” This is the essence of what we are fighting for around the world. The events in Iraq clearly illustrate who is for or against that which is American. Our actions in prosecuting this war on terror “while grotesque, probably saves lives.”
It seems that it is vogue for the Left to rail against anything pro America or pro Bush. I think a number of CNN watchers and American desenters should pull that movie out and watch it several times for a few answers to what is wrong with this nation.
One has to wonder how much of the disagreement on the Iraq war is due to just partisan politics at home.
Would the MSM and liberal community be anywhere near as critical if the decision had been made by President Clinton in reaction to a 9/11 attack in 1999 instead? I doubt.
Didn’t the Republicans and the conservative community criticize President Clinton’s war decisions and didn’t those criticisms look unpatriotic at the time, when our country and it’s troops needed moral support at home?
Has America become so divided along a liberal- conservative demarcation line that our willingness to support our country during war becomes dependent on the politics of the President who made the decision, i.e., was he ‘our’ President or ‘theirs’?
Have we gotten to the point where positive events during a war are not viewed as positive for our country if it will make an opposition President/Party look good politically? Events to be played down, turned around by ‘buts’, or not reported at all by the opposition.
Likewise, negative war events that would make our country look bad and help enemy moral and resistance, are viewed as positive by the opposition if it will make an opposition President/Party look bad. Events played up, turned into major events, and highly reported and investigated.
“A Nation divided against itself….”? Something to think about.
Jim, if anything Clinton was never resolute. Everything he did was a wag the dog diversion from whitewater, Monica, travelgate ad nauseum. Please. If Clinton was acting on principle, I don’t think you would find most of us critizing him for it. If anything, I for one was criticizing because it wasn’t enough.
That goes for Bush Sr way back when Yugoslavia started falling apart in the summer/fall of ‘91. Instead of demanding that the purging stop with the full force of our military, unilaterally if need be, he was busy trying to put humpty together again.
CNN(Communist News Network)is losing its ratings how dose this effect ted turner? too bad teddy but your left-wing news is just too one sided and im glade he is losing it all we dont need the CNN anymore nor do we need GMA,TODAY,CBS MORNING NEWS,CBS SUNDAY MORNING 60 MINUTES,DATELINE NIGHTLINE or any of the other left-wing news papers and magazines(TIME,NEWSWEEK,ETC)
CNN is boring and FOX is on the way, no one believes that FOX is fair or balanced. The Washington Post rocks!
CNN and Fox both strike me as pitched to entertain rather than to inform, though Fox is certainly the more blatant propaganda machine. I trust the BBC more than I trust any American news source. The Brits seem less enamored of the fallacy that if you’re loyal to a cause, then you always make it look good and never criticize it, and more interested in actually informing their audience than in making them support some or other dubious partisan cause. FYI, I don’t think Fox is very pro-American at all. Keeping citizens ignorant and just telling them what they want to hear is about the worst thing you can do to your country.
Comments on this entry are closed.