Update II (3/25): The Schindler’s second appeal to Judge Whittemore fails. They appealed again to the 11th Circuit. The court will likely turn them away a second time.
————————————————————————————————–
Liberals’ newfound respect for “federalism” is completely disingenuous. People who support a national policy on abortion are prohibited from ever using the word “federalism.”
I wholeheartedly agree, Ann.
During the Federal Marriage Amendment debate, liberals were suddenly supporter’s of “states’ rights.” Strangely enough, they couldn’t be bothered with it when the Supreme Court struck down a sodomy law in Texas. Or when the same court discovered a right to privacy to kill babies, despite state laws to the contrary. It seems that liberals favor states’ rights as long as death is involved. Except the deaths of convicted murderers, that is.
When the people of California approved Proposition 209, outlawing skin color discrimination in public admissions and hiring, liberals wanted a judge to strike it down. When the people of Arizona approved Proposition 200, a law that requires “proof of citizenship to register to vote, photo ID to vote, and proof of eligibility for non-federally mandated public benefits (welfare),” liberals wanted that law stricken, too. Do you see a pattern here?
When it comes to the protection of life, decency, fairness and American values in general, liberals dismiss the will of the people, preferring judge-made law. But when death, destruction, and indecency are in play, suddenly the will of the people is paramount. I got a kick out of reading the rambling posts of liberal bloggers pontificating about “the rule of law.” It was hysterical.
Meanwhile, Terri Schiavo starves. It’s been a week since her feeding tube was removed.
Captain Ed responds to a reader about Judge Greer. Lorie Byrd blogs in the wee hours. Also be sure to check out Wittenberg Gate. Gerry Phelps argues that providing food and water is not “artificial life support.” Wizbang says the case is over.
[M]illions of Blue State Baby Boomers are in line to inherit a bundle … but not if Mom or Dad lives forever or, especially, if his or her slowly declining health requires a fortune in expensive care. A nice quick fatal heart attack would do the trick, but with Lipitor and the like these days, oldsters are going slower.So, when you wonder why a lot of people, especially Democrats, are okay with starving Terri Schiavo to death instead of having her kept expensively alive, follow the money.
Update (11:08 a.m.): Supreme Court tells Schindlers to get lost. Governor Jeb Bush files for custody of Terri Schiavo. (Hat tip: Michelle Malkin)
I do not understand the emotionalism of the pull-the-tube people. What is driving their engagement? Is it because they are compassionate, and their hearts bleed at the thought that Mrs. Schiavo suffers? But throughout this case no one has testified that she is in persistent pain, as those with terminal cancer are.If they care so much about her pain, why are they unconcerned at the suffering caused her by the denial of food and water? And why do those who argue for Mrs. Schiavo’s death employ language and imagery that is so violent and aggressive? The chairman of the Democratic National Committee calls Republicans “brain dead.” Michael Schiavo, the husband, calls House Majority Leader Tom DeLay “a slithering snake.”
Everyone who has written in defense of Mrs. Schiavo’s right to live has received e-mail blasts full of attacks that appear to have been dictated by the unstable and typed by the unhinged. On Democratic Underground they crowed about having “kicked the sh– out of the fascists.” On Tuesday James Carville’s face was swept with a sneer so convulsive you could see his gums as he damned the Republicans trying to help Mrs. Schiavo. It would have seemed demonic if he weren’t a buffoon.
Why are they so committed to this woman’s death?
They seem to have fallen half in love with death.
Hugh Hewitt: “Congress is allowed to ‘intervene and guide or control the exercise of the courts’ discretion’ — except when it comes to Terri Schiavo.”
Bryan Preston: “We don’t err on the side of protecting anyone. We don’t protect the unborn. We don’t protect the nearly born and we’re edging closer to the edge of not protecting the recently born. Now we don’t protect those born 41 years ago, if they have suffered enough that a couple of doctors and a judge think her life is no longer worth living.”
Blogger Dan Edelen noticed something strange about Sojourners, a liberal Christian magazine. They are supposedly “concerned with the social gospel, peace and justice issue for those who have no voice,” Dan said. Guess what they had to say about Terri Schiavo?
Yet, with all of my moral outrage on this, I have to stop and ask myself if I am viewing this situation, and Michael in particular through a gospel-centered lens, or through a cross-centered lens?Viewing Michael through a cross-centered lens won’t change the sinfulness of his actions. Viewing Michael through a cross-centered lens won’t change our obligation to rescue those being led away to slaughter. Viewing Michael through a cross-centered lens won’t change our obligation to voice our opposition to the laws that make the starvation of a person like Terri possible.
But we are also faced with how we are to respond to Michael as a person. Put more precisely, how does the gospel guide our response to Michael as a person? If all should go his way, how should the Christian community react to him in the future?
From funny man Scott Ott:
Judge Greer suspended the Florida constitution and issued a declaration of ‘judicial law’ for the good of the people. His edict moves the official seat of government to his Pinnellas County courtroom….The coup comes during a month in which Judge Greer twice overruled the governor and state legislature in order to carry out his decree to slowly execute Terri Schiavo, a woman who has come to symbolize the oppressive reign of Christian conservatives.
CBS undercuts its own reporting on Terri Schiavo.
Watch the big bloggers (Hugh Hewitt, John Hinderaker and Glenn Reynolds) duke it out on “Kudlow and Company.”
Update: Since George Bush is such a friend to lawbreakers, he should become one himself and save Terri Schiavo’s life despite whatever edicts have been handed down. But he won’t. Terri will die, and he and Vicente Fox will drink a toast to their amnesty plan.
I’m listening to Michael Savage, who says (paraphrased): You mean to tell me that a swamp judge in Florida (Judge Greer, Schiavo trial judge) is more powerful than the most powerful man in the world (G. Bush)? Or the United States Congress? And his brother Jeb Bush can send in the state troopers right now if he wanted to.
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By hook or by crook, liberals want their way and only their way and they want it now.
Anyone who supports the likes of Ann Coulter—*no words*
Anyone who doesn’t like Ann Coulter or the fact that I blog about her can – *no words*
They can also choose not to click on the URL http://www.lashawnbarber.com.
My heart is broken for Terri. Unless someone else intervenes (Ann recommends Gov. Bush, for example), she’s going to die. All anyone really wanted was for the courts to listen to all the evidence and see whether Michael has done everything he could for her (including the tests to see whether she is in fact in PVS).
God rest her soul. But if Michael or anyone else has done something wrong in this case, God will judge them. And He won’t care what their excuses are.
The Steven Sailer quote – low blow.
That’s all I can say.
Thanks for continuing to politicize an incredibly personal and painful family matter.
You call it “politicizing,” I call it criticizing and exposing death worshippers. Is that you “Smithers”?- Admin
Great “dead-on the money” comment by Sailer. The truth hurts and apparently it still does.
La Shawn, if you haven’t already, check out Peggy Noonan today. http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006460
Anybody who can use the phrase “the likes of” with a straight face – *no words*.
Liberals don’t care about ‘federalism’, conservatives are the ones that have been screaming about it for decades. The only reason we’re bringing it up now is to point out the incredible flip-flopping hypocrisy of conservatives on this case.
LawWife – I read it this morning and will link to it now.
Yeah, I think the Sailer comment is out of line inasmuch as it contains the words “especially Democrats,” but other than that it is exactly on target.
Spent any time with the elderly? Read any figures on just how much of the Medicare and Medicaid budgets go to operations and equipment to keep the “old geezers” alive? Ever hear anyone ask, “Why spend all this money and time on this 80 year old guy? It’s only gonna keep him alive another few years?” Hey — I’ve heard figgin’ _medical students_ say that.
I have not always been a fan of Ann Coulter and her harsh style. La Shawn has rarely linked to her in the past, or very sparingly.
In this case, with the Teri Schiavo situation being so dire and tragic……I welcome Ann’s comments.
At this point, anybody who can get attention, and save this Woman’s life, should be heard.
Thank you, La Shawn, for linking to Ann Coulter. I would not have read her column otherwise, and I’m ready to explore her articles and give her another chance. And, especially if you think she’s got something noteworthy.
I am ready to support a Right to Life amendment now.
I never thought I’d say that, as I am an atheist (and more tolerant of first-trimester abortion* than most people here, sorry).
But it seems that it would be the only way to guarantee due process for a woman like Terri Schiavo.
A life-and-death decision should require a jury. There should have been a jury listening to Michael S.’s claims about Terri’s wishes. There should have been a jury hearing about his conflicts of interest. There should have been a jury hearing the nurses testimony and seeing their cross-examination.
An accused killer cannot be sent to the death row (or even to jail!) without such rigor. Why should an innocent woman have less?
*This no longer controls my vote, FWIW.
I heard Terri’s brother on a talk radio show a short while ago while in my car. He said that when he visited her last night, he was aghast at how bad she looked, “like an inmate from a WWII German ‘death camp’”. When asked if someone was standing by to make sure that he did not give her food or water, he said that there was a police officer in the room, to ensure that there was no attempt to feed her or give her water.
I also saw that some people were arrested, including a couple of children for trying to take water to her room.
What is going on here? I thought that the judge had merely ordered her feeding tube to be removed, not SENTENCED HER TO DEATH. If she can take in food or water by mouth, why can she not do so?
As to the officer standing by to ensure her starvation and dehydration, I can only say that I personally would refuse such duty as an “unlawful order”, it might cost my job, but I’ll bet a better one would come along.
We’ve posted the contact information for Jeb Bush. After six days of starvation now is the time for him to take action.
Why on earth has nobody smuggled a camera in there, to show us the guard at the very least?
I’m quite sure the judge has forbidden it. This seems, however, a useful act of civil disobedience.
I guess starvation will no longer be considered “cruel and unusual punishment” on death row now.
I’ve crossed Bush out of my “book.” He said regarding Terri “there’s nothing else I can do.” Hello? You have the military and the FBI at your disposal? Ever heard of USING them? The courts do not rule this country; our ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES do.
Sorry if I was unclear…I was talking about President Bush.
I forget there are two Bushes…
“I guess starvation will no longer be considered ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ on death row now.”
Sure it will. This situation is inaposite [Ed note: Is that a word?] to that because it is not punishment.
Please be reminded that all opinion polls are saying that the vast majority of Americans are against reinserting the feeding tube and thought that Congress was wrong for interfering. Michelle Malkin, Limbaugh and others who say that the polls are biased because they are MSM (a canard if there ever was one) should be honest and admit that even Fox polls show this to be true, including the fact that nearly two-thirds of evangelicals feel the same way. We can share our opinions but some of those on the right are abusing the facts. Someone yesterday said on TV that “the American people” want Terri to live and on and on and on…this is just not true.
I’ve already got the ball rolling on tracking you down, bitter troll. – Admin
Candy wrote, “Anyone who supports the likes of Ann Coulter—*no words* ”
I like her. I like La Shawn. I like Michelle Malkin. Again. I like Ann. Me thinks that I don’t like Candy for being judgmental against someone who is funny, satirical, and accurate.
Does anyone know? Is it common practice to not only remove a feeding tube but also forbid any food or water being given orally? The readings on hospice care that I have done have tips for moistening the mouth and lips of terminal semi comatose people.
Miguel wrote, “Liberals don’t care about ‘federalism’, conservatives are the ones that have been screaming about it for decades. The only reason we’re bringing it up now is to point out the incredible flip-flopping hypocrisy of conservatives on this case.”
Federalism and states rights were always a topic when concerning legislation (by Congress) or the Executive Branch. It was never a topic about the courts. Conservatives were always pointing out judges that were abusing their power (like Judge Greer) and not taking into account all the evidence (like Judge Greer) and basically not being accountable to anyone but his own personally beliefs (like Judge Greer).
No other court has even considered any new evidence. They haven’t looked at evidence that Judge Greer has excluded and that Michael Shaivo has tried to keep excluded.
So when people say stupid things like 19 courts have looked at this I can only say they are sadly mistaken. 19 courts have simply affirmed Judge Greer’s decision based on the evidence that Judge Greer looked at and no other additional evidence.
Nor has their been tests done or attempts at rehab done. Terri could be doing more than laying in a bed with a feeding tube if there were attempts at testing and rehab.
Let’s look at hypocrasy another way. The left which thinks taxpayer dollars should be spent on stem cell research to help people (ala 3 BILLION here in CA in a proposition that Arnold supported – a disagreement of mine with him) haven’t been with this woman, haven’t been in favor of extending just a little time for this woman for testing, haven’t been in favor of extending just a little time for rehab efforts or giving Terri’s parent and brothers and sisters the opportunity to do simple things like allow the BLINDS to be open in her room or allow her to SUCK on ice chips. That’s hypocrasy. They wouldn’t allow a man who is an owner of a dog not FEED the dog but they’ll claim that this man (Michael) has ownership of this woman (Terri) to the point where he can say don’t feed her.
WoW! Where are the feminists on that one?
C
That’s right. Get your own blog if you don’t like the well operated control of this blog by the wonderful hostess.
I remember seeing the awful messages about what people wanted to do to Michelle Malkin on her blog. And Michelle didn’t monitor comments closely. She pretty well had to shutdown all commenting period because of low lifes trying to get away with saying any thing with no discretion.
La Shawn has the right to have discretion and discriminate.
Next time you go shopping for an apple at the store I’m sure you will operate with discrimination. You will choose what will go in your house.
Just a rambling thought going through my mind and not intended to offend anyone.
As Good Friday is upon us does anyone else see the similarities of the crucifixion depicted in “The Passion” and the court ordered starvation of Terri ?
Is it life imitating art, life imitating religion, or history repeating it’s self.
We have the characters
The SCOTUS as Pontius with the final judgment…having recently reduced the sentences of 17 year-old murderers and now condemning an innocent to death.
The judges as the High Priests demanding an innocent person be put to death…with a couple who dissent
Michael Schiavo as Judas…betrays an innocent for pieces of silver
Terri Schindler Schiavo as Jesus…who is ordered to suffer greatly as death approaches
Mary Schindler as Mary mother of Jesus…prevented from offering comfort to their innocent child
The police as Pontius’s soldiers…preventing anyone from helping
George and Jeb Bush as the Apostles…spreading the word as brothers Simon and Andrew
I wait for someone to place a wetted sponge onto the tip of a spear and place it to the lips of a suffering innocent soul.
And over and over I hear…”Forgive them Father, for they do not know…”
I’m 42, married (25 years), raised 3 daughters, retired Air Force, conservative, never attended church, watched “The Passion” 3 times and am horrified by what is happening to an innocent soul.
RE: continuing attacks on “liberals.” We seem to attack them as some sort of amorphous, alien wretches that have descended upon us. In fact, none of “them” could have ascended or decended unless American people voted for them. I find continued attacks on them (and I am not one of them) to be disingenuous and a little cowardly because they ignore this fact. Conservatives’ problems with liberals are actually problems with their friends, neighbors and family members, who continue to vote them in.
Baklava,
The Schindlers asked Judge Greer if they could give her food/water by mouth when the feeding tube was removed. Greer said no and called the feeding by mouth an “experimental procedure.” This is why they can’t/won’t give her food or water by mouth now. I will try to find a link for you to the Judge’s order.
Crazy, isn’t it?
And they call us (Covservatives/Christians)”Nazis”..
Miguel,
You’re another example of hypocrisy…..You use (liberals in general) whatever way you can to get your way….and then justify it later by saying “No, we’re just pointing out how bad conservatives are”.
Sorry, Take responsibility for your actions…oh wait…That’s not the liberal way. The liberal way is to blame anyone and everyone else for your (or someone elses (especially if they’re minority, children or liberals)) actions. MY bad, that’s what you’re doing.
Dan
And they call us (Covnservatives/Christians)”Nazis”..
Sorry, should have directed the above to Evon Bachaus, not Baklava.
Evon,
If you go to Terrisfight.org, on the very first page – look under “court developments”. There you will find where Greer denied the family the right to give her food or water by mouth.
I continue to pray for the peaceful death of Terri Schiavo, as her expressed wishes reflect. Shame on the soc-called Christian politicians who are trying to use this poor woman and her family for their own gain. If Tom DeLay isn’t Judas here, I don’t know who is.
Bostonian,
Re: Right to Life Amendment…Are you ready to have a trial by jury for every baby that is condemned to die at an abortion clinic?
RE: Steven Sailer…absolute ignorant incendiary trash.
Maybe Molech needed an older sacrifice..
But wait, don’t these death-lovers worship themselves?
That reminds me of a quote from a Christian film about the New World Order aka death-loving-’elites’: “self-preservation is the highest good”.
Yea, the 3rd reich part two, coming to a neighborhood near you.
This seems like just their entre’, I’d imagine they are already here..from the like of this..Enshrining murdering adulterers and handcuffing sweet little Christian boys who do courageous life-giving acts.
Yep, sounds like the (real) Nazi’s to me.
Black robed perverts..
Well, God sees all. Of this we can be sure. His arm is not thwarted by these blind and wicked men.
But I wonder how much longer He will suffer this..
Hey P,
We see the same movies
I think they also say “Self preservation at any cost” in that movie (so true, so true)
BRAVO La Shawn. You said what I’ve been thinking for weeks now.
The hypocrisy going on around this country right now with these newfound states rights fans is so thick it could be cut with a knife.
Sure they are doing this to Jesus.Just read this below and pass it on.(While we still have rights to pass on scripture through the Internet, that is..)
Matthew 25:34-46:
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Just a reminder that approximately 25,000 babies have been slaughtered in their mothers’ wombs in the last week. Why didn’t Congress take action to protect them?
“They can also choose not to click on the URL http://www.lashawnbarber.com. ”
Christians are so nice.
Our friend “Candyce” is confusing the word “Christians” with “suckers,” “doormats,” chumps,” and “wimps.”
Seems that heathens aren’t too nice, either. – Admin
Just a reminder, that the supreme court decided (3 decades ago) that they should trump states rights and allow the killing of those 25,000 babies this week.
You can do better than this, LaShawn. Pointing out liberal inconsistency doesn’t address conservative inconsistency. The conservative blogosphere has morphed into the Angry Left on this issue.
Apparently all these commenters are more informed on this issue than the 19 judges who examined reams of medical reports. And anyone who humbly accedes to all these courts is slavering for Terri’s death. And when polls show Americans overwhelmingly disagree with them, the pro-life crowd takes the Angry Left approach: the poll was rigged! Americans don’t really get it! (Translation: Americans are too stupid to understand, but WE understand). Peggy Noonan can even read Carville’s mind.
The only person enjoying any of this is possibly a certain Senator from New York, who sees how the Religious Right is going to pave the way for her return to the White House.
It seems that the ‘Culture of death’ has taken another tack. They can taste victory they may have finally won one, at the cost of an innocent life as they sit idly by and root for the death ‘disabled woman’. What mensch !
They are all for this quality of life thing but let me ask them, Who defines qualitity of life ?
A Doctor, such as Ronald Cranford who determined that Terri was PVS, from an empirical exam he made this determination.
The Lawyer for Michael ‘Richard-Cranium’ Shiavo, that Felos guy cant seem to remember his first name.
Michael Shiavo did his homework alright, are any of you pro-deathers aware that Dr. Cranford and Felos are both members of the National Hemlock Sciety, These two pillars of Society want to determine for the rest of us, what the Quality of life should be, so much for individualism or personal freedom.
I can not believe that there are so many people who want this young woman to die, I can not believe that this is happening to my country.
Hmm, judgeship automatically means infallable status. WOW!
Jeff wrote, “Apparently all these commenters are more informed on this issue than the 19 judges who examined reams of medical reports.”
See what I wrote earlier about the 19 decisions basically affirming what Judge Greer decided without taking into account evidence that the Schindler’s wanted taken into account or rehab that they wanted done that was blocked by Michael or new tests that were run.
19 schminteen.
And thanks for your about me area on your web site where you say things you don’t like are and then a picture of a baby.
Re: kevin mcCullough…
State sanctioned murder has not arrived…its been here for at least 32 years and in some states even longer. The “killing” of Terri is not a step farther down the slippery slope as some keep saying. ABORTION is the bottom of the slippery slope, not euthanasia. I trust that conservatives and the President now will step up efforts to secure a Right to Life Amendment to protect the unborn. If they do not, then I think the proof is in the pudding that they are using Terri. If we think that God’s judgment might fall on us for letting Terri go, then how much greater will that judgment be on a nation that has delivered at least 43 million of its unborn over to the butchers since 1973 (and millions before that).
No, not Smithers.
I just don’t see how attacking liberals is doing much good. Although I am a liberal, I am deeply troubled by what has happened to Terri Schiavo. Despite the accusations and the politicizing of this issue, there are two things that stand out the most to me – (1) She has not received adequate rehab and (2) The only way for her to die is to remove the feeding tube. Both of which are incredibly troubling.
There are so many aspects of this situation that are incredibly sad and troubling. But, blasting liberals isn’t really the answer, is it? Calling us “death worshipers” isn’t either. Because this has become such a political issue, those of us who are liberal somewhat cringe at the thought of siding with “you” on this issue. Because, it really isn’t about politics, it is about a woman’s life and the underlying question of whether or not she has been given full opportunity to recover.
Here is a question that I would like to pose that I haven’t seen addressed by your many comments on this issue – If, by some grace, the family’s wish to reinsert the feeding tube is granted, and guardianship is removed from the husband and placed with the family what if she never improves? What if she goes through months or even years of rehab, and she does not improve? Is the family then free to make the decision to remove the feeding tube and allow her to die without public interference?
stan,
I think La Shawn posted a few days ago (with a link to a great article) about Terri’s situation being just another fallout from the “legalized” killing of babies.
Either way, all related, all a part of the same mindeset.
Honestly Stan, I don’t think they were tying to use Terri. That is an accusation that can’t be proven as you aren’t in their minds.
If I was in their shoes I would’ve done the same thing because time is limited once the hydration and feeding stops. You don’t have time to take a poll and see if the issue can be USED like you ACCUSE.
Why the rush to kill?
Why not allow for SOME time for test, rehab or new information. Why not allow the parents to take complete physical and financial responsibility of Terri?
I’ve asked that question about 10 times and still haven’t gotten an answer from those like you who are rushing to terminate? To me this isn’t about lifers vs. non lifers or politics.
BTW, sorta related, they are already tracking the “infamous” unsigned memo that went around congress over the weekend to a possible “Democratgate” (like Rathergate). Too funny (and stupid) if it is true.
Yes. The only POLITICAL part of this whole story is the memo that seems to be untrue and made a press story by the leftist media in bed with the Democrats. Just like rathergate.
When will they learn?
Stan, I have been pro-choice (sorry folks) my whole life, but have come to reason that many reasons for that position are based on 19th problems. For example, if a woman had a baby when she wasn’t supposed to, she couldn’t hide it, and she’d end up in the workhouse and die early and so on. Those reasons are gone in modern society; nobody’s life is destroyed by having a baby.
I am still more tolerant of the practice than most people here, but as I indicated earlier, this no longer controls my vote.
On the other hand, seeing an innocent woman deliberately starved to death because of judicial incompetence, that has really got me going.
If the way to prevent this tragedy from occuring again is to outlaw abortion, then I am willing to do that. And I do not say that lightly. I come from a long line of angry feminists.
I mean “have come to realize that many reasons…”
I don’t type so well.
Baklava,
Again you’ve attacked me personally for wanting to terminate Terri’s life. That is false and you’d know it if you read some of my other posts. My wife and I talked a lot about this as we lay in bed during a rainstorm two nights ago. We agreed that if either of us was in Terri’s position we would let them go to be with their Lord. We agreed that if our sons were in Terri’s condition that we’d let them go. We agreed that we would absolutely not want the courts and especially Congress interfering. I told her that if her parents and her brother were alive and wanted to care for her that I would strongly consider it because it was her father who graciously gave her to me.But we also agreed that if we had a living will that gave instructions to not prolong life, that we would not allow parents or anyone else to interfere and override it. This is why the majority of Americans are not on the side of Congress on this issue. I believe that Michael’s statements regarding her wishes are ambiguous to a point and I believe that he should have given great consideration to her parents’ wishes. I think he should have acceded to their request. But the courts are on his side as are most Americans because he is her spouse. She left her parents to cleave to her husband. Baklava, have you and your wife and kids talked about this? And what would you say to the Americans who are having real struggles with this issue?
Bostonian, I like the honest responses that you gave for your beliefs, your pro-choice stance and what this situation has made you consider. It touched me (honestly).
Rich,
once again, you raise the liberal “Do as I say, not as I do” hydra.
Do you not even realize the hypocrisy that exudes from your pores?
Where in my 2:24 post Stan did I attack you personally? I’ve simply refuted your allegation and then asked you a question. Can you answer it?
So you don’t have to go back, here is the question again….
Why not allow the parents to take complete physical and financial responsibility of Terri?
Both Bushes should rush in and grab her and give her food and water; meanwhile, Congress should immediately impeach all those judges and set up new judges who will try the old judges for murder. It’s the only thing to do!!!!
Bostonian,
Thanks very much. I appreciate your answer.
Thanks, Renee.
Difficult choices sometimes yield surprising answers.
Baklava,
You accused me of being with those who want to terminate Terri’s life. You are lying about me. Read my posts to learn what I believe.
Stan,
Do you or do you not support the Terri being fed?
The answer to that question determines whether or not you are “with those who want to terminate Terri’s life”.
I would gladly welcome your admittance that you want Terri to be fed or would allow her to be fed or whatever the actual catch phrase should be.
Stan, I’m not sure those polls are worth anything at all.
It would be very interesting to know, from the same sample of people, what the awareness is of the actual issues. How many of those polled knew that there are a lot of doctors who disagree fiercely with the diagnosis? How many knew that Terri is not in pain, is not terminal, and is not on a respirator? How many knew that Michael Schiavo inherits what is potentially a large amount of money?
As for your comments about what conservatives say about liberals, I’ll agree that generalizations are fraught with peril.
As history has shown us, when it comes down to situations such as this, where TOUGH decisions have to be made, the polls (majority) more than likely will not agree with what is right (we are a conflict avoidance, risk fleeing society)…
the right answer normally means that conflict will ensue or a mjority of us are going to be forced to look in the mirror (and we hate that).
Baklava
As I’ve stated, I think that Michael should have acceded to Terri’s parents’ wishes, which means I think that they should have the opportunity to continue her care. If you would have read my posts over the last week, you would have known that. Learn to read and think more carefully before you accuse me again. And I’d be interested to know SPECIFICALLY why you keep lumping me in with liberals? I’ll be happy to discuss this with you although I don’t think La Shawn should let us take up space on it.
And the poll situation proves that those who were acting to try to extend Terri’s life so that SOME efforts at rehab or new evidence could be gathered, were acting on principle and NOT catering to votes.
Emily, Thanks. Baklava & Renee I always enjoy your posts. La Shawn, Congratulations. My your sphere of influence just keep on expanding.
Stan wrote, “As I’ve stated, I think that Michael should have acceded to Terri’s parents’ wishes, which means I think that they should have the opportunity to continue her care.”
But why are you so negative and factually incorrect in your aspersions cast and accusations about Republicans and evangelicals and this and that group that you seem to want to lambaste?
When mentioning these polls or Rush or Steve or whomever you have so much negativity to state about them.
And for what?
Because they wanted the same thing as you but you disagree with HOW they went about it (last minute attempt to save Terri from JUDGE Greer’s order)
There is no other way to do it. You had a Judge who made an order which would kill a woman within a week. Do you act lazy and non-interested? Do you try to buy Terri time so that rehab attempts could be attempted for the first time in 15 years? Do you allow for the doctor’s opinions who didn’t think Terri is PVS to be admitted as evidence or even reported on by the media? Can’t the media do a poll that doesn’t state categorically that Terri is PVS and should the feeding tube be reinserted? Of course people are going to say in higher numbers that feeding tubes should not be given to people in a Vegetative state for 15 years. But there is contrary evidence and the poll questions don’t even come close to asking a good honest question.
It has nothing to do with the stupidity of the people asked. It has to do with how people are referenced by you Stan, the media and by others.
Can’t we have an opinion without you and others on the left heaping so much vitriol towards US and our motives?
Thank you very much Evon.
And the thought that I didn’t continue on was that Congress didn’t really have an option to move slowly. They made legislation to help the woman because they felt in their hearts that the evidence was that Terri has been prohibited from rehab, tests and the courts didn’t consider information from rehab attemtps and tests and there was an honest dispute about constitutionality of Congresses actions.
My non-law opinion was that there was nothing wrong with Congress asking for the case to be heard again.
Thank you Evon.
So the polls show that most Americans are ignorant or wrong on this issue and that that is the case historically? Most Americans are ignorant or cowardly historically on tough issues? Were the responders to the Fox polls also ignorant? Are the evangelicals who’ve responded ignorant?
Bostonian,
I think that people know the issues. That’s why I keep citing the Fox polls…they should be the best informed supposedly. I think that people DO know the issue and it is so personal and private and difficult that they don’t want government or Hannity or Randall Terry interfering with it.
The poll that Stan references makes MY point. Here is one of the questions by the FoxNews poll
————–
34. If a patient has been in what doctors call a “persistent vegetative” or
a coma-like state with no higher brain activity for a significant amount of
time, who do you think should make the decision whether the patient should be
kept alive or not?
———————–
No acknowledgement was made by the FoxNews questioner that there was 8 (that I know) doctors who signed afadavits to give to Judge Greer (which he discounted) saying that Terri ISN’T an a persistant vegitative state.
So. Thanks for playing Stan. The poll question wasn’t even based in honesty.
Here is the next Fox News poll question with again the false assertion (false premise) in the question.
———————-
35. Terri Schiavo has been in a so-called “persistent vegetative state”
since 1990. Terri’s husband says his wife would rather die than be kept
alive artificially and wants her feeding tube removed. Terri’s parents
believe she could still recover and want the feeding tube to remain. If you
were Terri’s guardian, what would you do?
—————————
What to do with the media (including FoxNews) who tend to be left of center?
And what is my point?
My point is that If some of us think that there hasn’t been some information counted or some rehab attempted or a persistant pattern on Michael’s case to suppress information and rehab (close blinds and keep people from trying to feed Terri) that the QUESTION doesn’t even ADDRESS the situation…
Can you recognize that Stan? That the poll question doesn’t address the situation?
By the way. The # in front of the questions are misleading. There were only 3 poll questions that I saw from Fox News and they were labeled 34, 35 and 36.
On an up note:
Fox News makes sure I know all I can about the Michael Jackson case and Whitney Houston going back into re-hab. Oh and lets not forget Scott Peterson getting marriage proposals in prison (let’s not even try to analyze this one).
Oh Renee, That’s so hypocratical of the Conservative FoxNews….
“Can’t we have an opinion without you and others on the left heaping so much vitriol towards US and our motives?”
This from the side that calls people who disagree with them death-worshippers.
Talk about hypocrisy.
20,000 people in the world die every day because of poverty.
But one person who wants to die is what matters.
Baklava: Fox News is “conservative?” You mean any coverage ideology even remotely to the right of the Communist News Network (CNN) or “Lunatic TV” (MSNBC’s Chris Matthews and Laurence O’Dnonnel)?
Rich, please don’t be so boring.
You mean, “one person whose HUSBAND CLAIMS she wants to die.”
So Fox news is as bad as the rest? Are you now ready to acknowledge that they are part of the dreaded MSM? Are we now only limited to Michelle and Ann for the straight truth?
btrfly…your posts are very thoughtful and appreciated.
Candyce…your points about “Christians are so nice” has some validity. We are told in Scripture to “…speak the truth in love…” and that Jesus was quiet on the cross and didn’t “…render insult for insult…” and that we are to “..follow in His steps…” We’re also told to go the second mile with our enemies and to do good for them, even bless them. Our God even said to rebellious Israel…”Come now and let us reason together…” Some of us equate conservatism with authentic Christianity. This is not true and puts God and Jesus in a box of our own making. God is a liberal, God is an independent, God is a conservative and everything else…and to put Him in a conservative or liberal box is arrogance at its worst. I apologize for those of us who carry on this way. I apologize for the fact that there was a not-so-subtle reference to you being a heathen. I apologize for any comments that I’ve made that do not reflect my gentle Saviour. The Bible gives the outside world the right to judge us based on our love. Some of us, including me, need to go back to I Corinthians chapter 13 before we do too much more political posting.
Raymond you made me laugh… that “Lunatic Tv” comment made me picture Matthews ranting and yelling like a nut
Rich wrote, “But one person who wants to die is what matters.”
Rich,
She doesn’t want to die.
It’s you who wants her to die (and Michael).
There is honest differences from the people who knew her about whether or not she wants to live. But Rich aligns himself towards what? Death.
Raymond, I’ve said Fox News is to the left of center.
But..
when it comes down to it, are you willing to do the right thing?
If a “liberal” were dying on the street, one whose views you truly disliked, whose ideology you could not stomache, would you be willing to give such a one their needed food or water in their last dying breath?
Because, in the end, this is what it’s really all about.
It is not about “Liberals” verses “Conservatives”, but about the significance of right and wrong, and how that is either skewed, avoided, blotted out or ignored.
There is much more to heal the heart of these issues, and if it is not too hardened, in the non-God mindsets, I adjure you to look to your conscience.
Because, if your conscience does not speak to you about the abject evil occuring before-our-eyes in this case, then it just might be too late for you.
Partisan banter about “Conservatives” and attacks on such ones is meaningless in light of all this.
Lies about how this is “paving the way” for a possible Democrat contender who wishes to run for “president”, are also hollow, heartless wranglings.
They speak in a fullmouthed way, as one who has the very camel stuck in his throat, while he is busy straining at the knat of a non-related topic on this board.
We are talking about the full-out, shameless, blatant taking of another human life, with no regard for such a one, no regret, no remorse and no misgivings, simply because such black-robed ‘leaders’ were somehow, by someone, given ‘power’ to do so.
In short, just like abortion, and Kevin McCullough is right, we are talking about murder.
State-sanctioned murder.
In America, this week.
We can call it an “affair”, but it remains Adultery.
We can call it “abortion” as one’s “choice”, but it remains, murder.
We can call it “living together”, but it is still shackin’ up and it is still fornication.
We can play at words and talk talk all day long, but in the end and in between a thing is always going to be what it is.
And those who are party to it, what they are.
God sees this.
I see this.
Many see this.
We need to pray for those who can’t. Or won’t.
We need to step up, or pipe down. We need to remain true to our faith and be kind, but unwavering in our love of truth,spoken in His love, so we may continue to call things as they are.
We are talking about murderers, and a nod of approval by certain political leaders, groups that support them, and related industries and interests.
There is no other way to fashion this. It is what it is. And just like it was considered justified when abortion was ‘legalized’, it is still murder, still a sin against God and man, and still just as wrong.
There are no amounts of charity, good works, or holy-day reparation that can cleanse this in God’s eyes.
Terri Schinlder Schiavo’s blood is on their hands, God’s Holy Spririt they won’t ever silence.
And just like Cain with Able, the rocks will cry out.
There is a reaping to all we sow.
Mrs. P.
Baklava, your last comment might be considered inflammatory.
Rich, we do not know Terri’s wishes. We know only what her husband CLAIMS AND INTERPRETS them to be. There is a considerable difference between those two things.
That was my point. I wrote, “There is honest differences from the people who knew her about whether or not she wants to live.”
My point was that there is more than just Michael.
Baklava, I meant it might be considered inflammatory to accuse another person of wanting someone to die.
I’m not sure it helps the argument. And it’s not usually safe to guess what is inside other people’s heads.
Also, to put out my own generalization here, it’s more of a Leftist thing, to cross-examine other people’s supposed secret motives, so that even if they do the right thing, it’s for the wrong reason.
Let people’s motives be their own, unless offered publicly.
Why does the Govenor of Florida need the permission from the State Court to take custody.
Supposedly all three branches have equal power under the law and as far as I am concerned, the state court is in violation of abusing its power.
The Govenor could call out the National Guard and the State police to take custody of Terri Shindler (schiavo), of course this would be so UN-Politically Correct.
For that matter the President could federalize the Florida National Gaurd as ‘Ike’ did and order them out, there are still options, but what a ‘fuss’ that would create.
So with that option closed we are stuck with the status quo and horrible judicial tyranny.
What a sorry mess.
Hopefully, this case will encourage the idealogues on BOTH sides to get involved in these types of cases long BEFORE 15 long years and long BEFORE the cases become political tools.
The Schiavo case is not an anomaly. There have been many like this long before this one made news headlines.
Crediblity on issues like this is established from DAY ONE ivolvement, not when one or one side is forced to respond due to sensationalistic, emotional, headline driven post facto outcries.
It wasn’t only her husband who testified that she said that she would not want to be kept artificially alive in such circumstances. There were two other witnesses who heard her make those statements as well.
I am not wishing her dead, except inasmuch as all evidence points to that being her wish. There is NO evidence that she would want to be kept alive in these circumstances. I simply wish that we would respect what her wishes are.
And I am disgusted by whoever told the poor Schindlers that their daughter is going to hell if she dies at this time.
But there is no dispute that the 20,000 people who die every day because of poverty want to die. Don’t their lives matter?
Michael’s brother and brother’s wife are reported to be the two others. Ummm, ok…
that gives me warm fuzzies now.
Bostonian,
Point well taken. I get mad at folks (leftists) for claiming to know someone’s motives or intent. Saying Bush knew or Bush lied or that he went to war for oil or that that the Republicans acted for Terri for political gain.
Even though people ARE saying that they want her feeding tube removed or to stay removed, I shouldn’t translate that want to a want for her to die. They might still want for her to live. OK. OK. That’s not funny. I’ll try to work on my rhetoric here.
I just created a petition to Congress calling for limiting the powers of the judiciary back to its Constitutional roots. Here’s the URL: http://www.petitiononline.com/jdgeamnd/petition.html
Sorry to be doing advertising on a comments page, but I need to alert everyone! Please sign the petition and spread it around if you can.
Thanks!
Shayne
Baklava,
There you go again!… You lumped me in with the left when you said, “…you and others on the left…” Prove it sir….specifically, prove it.
And I don’t disagree with you on the way questions were posed in the polls. But I guess that I’m not willing to say that all the polls are showing that Americans are stupid, uninformed, cowardly and unable to think for themselves. The unanimity of the polls is saying something and as you’ve read my posts you know by now that I would be with the minority in the results. But I also know that if the poll results were reversed the Republicans, and especially conservatives, would be citing them with religious fervor and Mr. Hannity, Mr. Limbaugh, Ms. Coulter, Ms. Malkin, etcl would be the first to trumpet their results.
By the way, I have friends who have been at the hospice the whole time and I support their efforts. I’ve stood in front of abortion clinics with them, calling (not yelling) out to women that God loves them and their babies and that He can find a way when there is no way. Until I see the sidewalks in front of every abortion clinic in the U.S. manned by compassionate conservatives calling out to these women, I will say that conservative talk re: pro-life is cheap. I’m calling out the Concerned Woman of American and the supporters of Focus on the Family specifically. I would bet that the total number of conservatives standing in front of abortion cliniics in the U.S. today probably didn’t equal the number of those at Terri’s hospice. How much time have you spent in front of the abortion clinic closest to your home, Baklava?
Sorry…Concerned Women of America
I agree with some of what you say stan, however, it starts well before that. The people you call out as being “talk is cheap” are some of the ones fighting it or trying ot get the dialogue where it starts… the home and the schools. If the women are on their way to an abortion clinic, I wouldn’t say it is “a little late” but there was a step A that occured (I mean, they didn’t just wake up pregnant). Where were we when they took prayer and religious studies out of schools? Where were we when sex eduation started in the schools? Where are we when they are handing out condoms like aspirin? And where are we “really” now that they are trying to tell us what to teach our children in our homes?
Hanging out at the aborion clinic is good, but it started well before that.
Stan wrote, “But I guess that I’m not willing to say that all the polls are showing that Americans are stupid, uninformed, cowardly and unable to think for themselves.”
Nobody but YOU Stan (and some other liberals)
that the polls are showing that American are stupid…etc. I’m not saying it. I’m saying that the media AND YOU are consistently misrepresenting the core question on this Terri Shaivo case. If YOU and the media keep asking as if Terri is PVS and as if Terri’s had help for 15 years, etc. Then you are missing the point about the lack of help Terri has had. Michael has made it impossible for Terri to recover by PROHIBITING and rehabilitative efforts from occurring to the point of keeping her room’s blinds closed.
You asked me to prove it. I’ll prove it. I love a challenge.
Answer these questions:
1) What is the effect of lowering taxes on all who pay income taxes on the economy?
2) What is the effect of a recession on revenues into the government?
3) What is Bush’s policy in one summed up sentence on Stem Cell research and how is it diffent from the previous administration?
4) What did Bush say on the Iraq war that was different than what French Intelligence, British Intelligence, German Int, Russian Int, Clinton, and Kerry said in one sentence?
Renee,
I agree with you on those needs but its not “hanging out at the abortion clinic…”, its offering women that last chance in the name of Jesus. You and I can’t do much about those other issues but we can offer a last chance hope, can’t we? If we focused just on what’s wrong in the schools, culture, etc. why would we ever offer anyone a last chance? “Hanging out at the abortion clinic…” is not a good thing, it is an absolute imperative and conservatives and conservative evangelicals are notorious for talking the talk, but not walking the walk on this issue. We do a fair job with crisis pregnancy centers but that’s about it. CWA, Focus and others are taking in multi-millions but are not mobilizing an effort to put shoes on the streets. And many evangelical churches are diametrically opposed to “last chance” efforts. Haven’t we ever heard the story of the Good Samaritan? Aren’t these little ones our neighbors? Shouldn’t the love of God be extended to their moms one last time? This has always been the conservative mantra…blame the schools, blame the liberals, say that laws won’t change the heart, etc. I didn’t buy it in the middle 60s nor do I buy it now.
Dan Edelen is exactly right on Sojourners.
stan,
No one said don’t address those at the abortion clinics. I said, we can no longer fail to ignore the root of the problem. Addressing the abortion clinic is only addressing the syptom of an action that has already occured.
And I don’t know of any church that I deal with that is “diametrically” opposed to last chance efforts (as my mother and I both volunteer at a Preganancy Crisis center run by Chrisitan churches in the area. If you do, you should be talking with them about it (as Brothers in Christ), not sitting back thinking your way of foxing it is better.
Baklava,
#1…for the most part positive
#2…negative
#3…I think the President’s policy on stem cell research is too liberal.
#4…nothing
That was easy wasn’t it…
Now you answer 3 for me…
Do you support those who are carrying on a vigil and protesting at Terri’s hospice?
Have you ever spent time in front of an abortion clinic calling out to the ladies that God loves them and their babies and that He can find a way when there is no way?
Do you know where the nearest abortion clinic to your house is?
Everyone I have talked with about Terri Schiavo were under the impression that Terri was on a ventilator and that this was a simple case of unplugging the equipment that was keeping her alive. They also do not doubt Michael Schiavo’s statement about Terri wanting to die and not live in this state.
After I tell them this is not the case, that Terri is responsive, has never had an MRI or PET scan to determine PVS, has been denied any therapy and that her husband came up with the “I would want to die” story eight years after this all started, they are shocked. I’m constantly asked why this isn’t being reported in the news and I have to tell them that MSM just isn’t interested in the facts of the story.
Bostonian: You shouldn’t worry about having a pro-life opinion on this because you are an atheist. Many years ago the head of the National Right to Life was an atheist. Desiring life is part of our design.
Renee
The press has done a write everyday on how painless Starvations is.
Maybe instead of lethal injection we could switch to starvation for all the death row inmates.
The bigger issue here is Total government control of every aspect of life, and this is the eutopia the press is after, they walk in lock-step with the left.
Renee,
Be careful of saying that I’m “foxing it” (whatever that means). I can name a whole bunch of churches in my area that are diametrically opposed and they are strong, well-known evangelical churches with international recognition. They expressly forbid their people to sidewalk counsel. I didn’t say anything negative about crisis pregnancy centers. They are and have been a Godsend to thousands. I didn’t criticize efforts to change the schools, legislation, etc. I’m all for that. I DID say that we should be aggressive in reaching out to the ladies at the very end. Its coldhearted NOT to do so. The empty sidewalks in front of U.S. abortion cliniics will be all the evidence that God needs to condemn us on OUR last day. Who then will call out to us?
“Do you support those who are carrying on a vigil and protesting at Terri’s hospice?” Hm. I haven’t thought about that. There is part of me that doesn’t support it because it is Judge Greer who is doing the disservice and the hospice is simply trying to not be held in contempt.
Have you ever spent time in front of an abortion clinic calling out to the ladies that God loves them and their babies and that He can find a way when there is no way? Nope. And never will. I have two children (5 and
and before that served in the military for 6 years and have felt that there is no room for me to RISK either my service or time that I should be spending with my children. Also, I simply do not believe it is productive to be yelling out to women who are in a time of need. The hysteria of the situation doesn’t help anything.
Do you know where the nearest abortion clinic to your house is? Yes.
Stan,
I wish I could bring myself to apologize for intimating that you are liberal. But I can’t. You continuously get the facts wrong and hurl accusations against people that aren’t true. It is possible for one to be misinformed but still have conservative principles. Misinformation. Humanity’s struggle is against confusion. It seems to me that your perception of conservatives or perception of some individuals is off because of misinformation.
It’s OK. It has happened to us all. We’ve all been misinformed. Through conversation we can all come around to some agreements but maybe some disagreements. But at least we can all be more informed.
I’m glad in the other thread you came around on the conservative business owners meme hiring illegal immigrants.
Maybe I’ll come around on something to show good faith. Unfortunately, I just don’t see where Judge Greer considered information from the Schindlers, any other judge considered any other information that Judge Greer didn’t and I don’t see how the POLLS are asking questions with true premises in this instance. Even you admitted for a glimpse of a second that the polls are off on the premise, but then you went back to the volume of polls showing the same thing means something to you.
Well yeah. It means something but they don’t relate to the Terri case.
Tanny wrote, “they are shocked.”
This has been my point. If someone isn’t informed about Terri, of course they are going to answer a whole different way on the poll question that has the words persistent vegitative state for 15 years in it.
Stan do you see it yet?
The lack of teaching in the home stan will be all God needs also …
Mark,
The comments regarding how Painless and what peaceful sleep you fall inot when being starved to death, make my stomach turn. I’m sorry but it is not rocket science (and we don’t need a PhD to know that it is painful). But then, the media thinks we are all dumb hicks.
That Scrappleface piece (Scott Ott) is hilarious!
“Hmm, judgeship automatically means infallable status. WOW!”
there are processes for appeal, ways of reviewing judicial determinations of fact and law. those have happend over the last several years.
Patterico asks – “I have another question for the “Terri Schiavo should be allowed to die†crowd. Do you oppose an attempt to feed her liquid, to see if she can swallow it on her own? If so, why?”
Is there an answer from you folks who think Terri should be “allowed to die”? Let’s hear it…
Judge Greer denied the parents request on March 8th to feed and give water to Terri by natural means on March 8th.
http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/030805orderdenyfood.pdf
Mark Twain reportedly said, “The law is an ass.”
I’ve been thinking that a lot today.
When asked about life in pain versus death, Winston Churchill reportedly said he would choose to live because, “Death is the only thing you can’t get out of.” (As an atheist, I wholeheartedly concur!!!)
Most of all, I am struck by the number of people who think that living in a very brain-damaged state must necessarily be so horrible that death is better. Therefore, these people think, it is proper to err on the side of death rather than life.
Am I going to have to tattoo “Do everything you can” on my chest?!
The only thing I can imagine wanting to get out of (by dying) is if I had control of my mind but not my body. I think that in all such cases, the person can still move his or her eyes and communicate in rudimentary fashion. This would mean that there is the possibility of asking for assisted suicide. It is really not necessary for someone else to decide it for me, thank you very much.
Stan & Baklava, for what it’s worth, I think you’re both a bit worked up at each other when you don’t need to be.
Ain’t my blog, ain’t my business. I’m just sayin’.
Renee,
You are so tragically wrong…read the parable of the Good Samaritan again…God hates the shedding of innocent blood…the lack of good teaching in the home pales by comparison. If it was just the lack of good teaching, why would anyone even need Jesus? We could make that same argument for Terri…she married a loser…she became fat…she became bulimic..she messed up her body….where was the teaching in her home…didn’t she get proper dietary instruction at home or proper teaching as to how to pick a good spouse? Of course, we don’t make those arguments. I know that you’re a Christian but think a little bit…those of us who are not out in front of the abortion mills…well, the babies’ blood is on ALL of our hands and God will take His vengeance on us and our country.
Baklava,
I didn’t come around on illegals…I just agreed with you that subcontractors paid part of the fine.
With regard to folks at the hospice, at least you’re being honest…
With regards to standing in front of abortion mills…you’ve basically said that you are a coward …at least you’re being honest…that’s why talk is cheap…you’re afraid to take a risk…I can understand that, too.,..but my friends and I did, are and will…and I hope that some compassionate folks are in front of the abortion mill near your home…the ladies and their babies sure won’t be given a last chance by you….
I gave you honest answers to honest questions and you’re still sneering…enough with you.
stan,
Please read the ENTIRE bible and not the parts you like.
I am done with this conversation
Bostonian,
Thanks
You lost Stan,
I will not inform you you anymore. Therefore you lost. You do not like to learn about what you are so often mischaracterizing or mistating. These are habits of liberals and that is why I branded you as one.
BYE !
Come on, B. Let’s keep things friendly.
My point was that Stan is very very very judgmental.
He judges people as if he were God.
He should take this as a lesson to stop.
And why? Because he continuously makes erroneous judgments.
I apologize to the hostess (La Shawn) for allowing the erroneous judgmental people of the world to push me into unfriendliness.
That must be only you, Bak
Stan and I seem to get along just fine.
People lose sight of the fact that our democratic law gets its basis from the respect for life. The furthering of an agenda that allows death, assisted death, and abortion chips away at our basic freedoms.
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