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Trolls Are Attacking
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You can stop testing, creep. You won’t get on. I know you’re one of two people I’ve already banned. I’m actually flattered that you’re so obsessed with me. – Admin
Just goes to show how parents really are neglecting their responsibilities.
Corporal punishment was a good thing
Obsessed, anonymous male trolls are compensating for something. I wonder what that is? By the way, you’re slightly off in your assessment. Nice try, though. I have a friend with the initials S. and W. who’d just love to meet you.
On second thought, I’ll pray for you. I’m ashamed of myself for not thinking of that first. That’s what you really need. – Admin
Trolls indeed, LaShawn! Thanks for what I believe is a thoughtful and loving treatment of the death of JPII. Reformed, Calvinist, Wesleyan, Evangelicals all, we adults take the simple (not simplistic) message of the Gospel and make it soooo complex and heady and theological that a child could never accept it and be saved! I say let’s all of us born-again beleivers in Jesus get out of the way, and let God be God in our lives…
You are right La Shawn (regarding praying). You are definitely popular
Since they feel they can not stay away, I figure the more you post the Gospel (from the scriptures), the more they will probably learn…
so it’s all good
In spite of this person being so annoying, I sort of feel sorry for him. May God give him and everyone like him something worthwhile to do instead of bothering folks he disagrees with. Then they can discover what a joy it is to be a blessing rather than a pest.
I will not abandon your site.
I believe you to be in grave error regarding your Protestant beliefs, but I will try, through words and dialogue, to convince you otherwise.
First, let me ask you….do you read Greek? Do you read Latin? If not, then I think you should definitely set a goal of learning them– as this will greatly improve your ability to delve into the Scriptures and early Christian works.
I appreciate your gentle honesty on the pope’s death. I’ve sort of been avoiding the news since he died because people–even conservative evangelicals–seem to be missing the bigger issues, namely, what the Bible says is true. But I followed your link to James White, and between the two of you, things are becoming clear again. I know the challenges of speaking alone against crowds of people who vehemently disagree with you. May the Lord continue to draw you close to Him as you’re persecuted in His name!
Catocb – I don’t read Greek, but that’s something I want to change. Knowing the original words, especially where there’s a dispute, is invaluable. Reading the New Testament in Greek is one of my goals. I assume you read NT Greek? I’m impressed that you understand its importance.
By the way, I’d prefer commenters not cut and paste whole articles. I’ve included the link to the article here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
La Shawn
No doubt that most of the “Internet Trolls” – people with a chip on their shoulder and no “class” – are Leftists.
It’s just basic psychology – Leftists are “tolerant” of “anything” – except a conservative.
And conservatives like you have “class” – you can “put them down” without name-calling.
catocb
I’m curious as to how reading Greek and Latin (the scriptures and nothing else), will change someones mind?
You’d be surprised that some here do read both and it still does not change our Protestant beliefs or the meaning of the scriptures and what the early church “works” were.
Point??
La Shawn, I’m sorry you’re having to take time out of your day to monitor the childish morons who choose to show their true colors on your blog.
I wonder if these are the same people that complain about our “depressed” economy – while they spend hours a day online, wasting time instead of working for a living?
You’re right, Renee, but knowing the original languages adds to the understanding. I can’t wait to learn Greek!
I read koine greek in part and am trained in the use of lexicons to study Hebrew and the Greek I don’t know…
It is unneccessary to know latin as none of the original biblical text were written in it….
Furthermore I support LaShawns position (gulp am I saying this!) 100% in this regard. But regardless of that, I think it important that we value the expressions of others even if we disagree and hold civil conversations on those disagreements…
My whole family on my mothers side is Catholic, and I was catholic until 12 years old, when my mom, once a devout catholic, converted to protestant fundamentalism for a variety of reasons…
I attended a Jesuit university (Creighton) learning more tenants of the catholic faith, and finished my undergrad at an evangelical university, trained in hermeneutics, exegesis, and apologetics…
That is just to provide context to my saying I support LaShawn 100%. I am not some superficial knee jerk couch theologian…
My ultimate point is that open and civil dialogue can take place on this issue and if folks are true to the tenents of the faith it will be done respectfully…minus the trolls…
True
Very true La Shawn
I think what I meant was… There are some who read the original text and the only thing they come away with is “Do not judge”, “Prince of Peace”, “jesus is love” (and that’s it) etc (which happens with those who don’t read the original languages (no difference)…
And then there are those who no matter what language they read it in, if their desire is not of God and by the grace of God, doesn’t matter (they will interpret they way they want to).
and miss everything else.
For someone looking for the truth .. like you said “adds to the understanding”
Please keep in mind that Scriptures started as spoken Aramaic, then was translated to Greek then to Latin. I’m sure the original Greek translation is close, but I’m willing to bet there’s some disagreements there, too.
Not saying learning the Greek is a bad thing.
L to the B,
I attended a very traditional Catholic Grammar School and then a Jesuit prep school, so I started with Latin when I was quite young.
I started Attic Greek (Plato, the Greek plays and histories et al) in University, where I studied Classics.
Towards my junion year, I wanted a better understanding of my Catholic faith, so I added Medieval Latin and Aramaic.
I think you should study Greek (Renee, many of the Protestant arguments that I’ve encountered as a Catholic have been based on faulty translation) but it is inc. difficult, especially if you don’t have a base in Latin.
I’m not sure how serious you are L to the B, but if you have the time, a basic course in Latin would make learning Greek a good deal easier.
Latin and Greek are incredibly complex in terms of grammar, but at least with Latin the vocabularly is fairly easy to learn.
With that, you can take up Greek focusing on the diff. alphabet and vocab–already having a pretty good idea about the structure of the grammar.
Viz. Catholics responses to Protestantism. I think you should read the page I linked to in an earlier post. It is really informative and if anything, at least it will provide you with more information.
Also the perseus project is an invaluable translation tool for Greek and Latin.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu
Latin rocks!!! I want to learn it.
The best education is at the Classical Christian Academies, where Latin (3 years at least) is a requirement.
Latin is a big with Homeschoolers too.
Perhaps your readers felt you took too sudden a shift in emphasis from politics to religion(?) I don’t know, but I do think that bloggers are sometimes surprised by the vehement response that religion can inspire.
I do think that the dispute between the Roman Catholic and Reformed view is well enough documented that it may be brought into a conversation with more carefulness than that which is viewed as a slap at the Catholics during the mourning for their temporal leader.
It isn’t like parties are unaware of the differences. That said, you just have to be ready for the rough and ready interchange on open forums.
Reading Greek AND Hebrew will really blow your mind! I take courses through Moody Bible Institute and while I haven’t taken enough Hebrew to dig deep, learning Greek was an amazing eye opener and a blessing I hadn’t expected.
The problem with me is that I have to refresh almost constantly or else most of my comprehension flies out of my ear. Just like the 4 years of French I took in high school!
A word in favor of learning Latin and Greek…they’re not only good for reading things like the Scriptures in the original, they can provide a lot of insight into the meaning of words in English, and they’re also of great help in studying the sciences. (Hmm, now it’s making me wish I could read them.
)
And now a word against the trolls…Remember this: There may be free speech, but there is no free lunch. If you want to make a speech, get your own blog; La Shawn pays for this one, and she’s not forced to carry your words if she doesn’t want to. I’d have thought she made that crystal-clear with her “I am the Queen” post…
Oh my
Send some of that nastiness over to my site, La Shawn…
I just want the traffic!
I think some of these idiots need some hometraining. As well as a dose of lithium and a quick, firm kick in the rear.
Reading the Greek/Hebrew is useful. Reading Aramaic is useful. Reading Latin is useful.
But you really don’t HAVE to read these ancient languages to read the Scriptures – unless you think that all translations were done by idiots but somehow you with your limited experience and education will “discover” something hidden that’s only there if you “really know the Greek.”
Think about it. Centuries of translations done by competent translators, and you think there’s some dusty undiscovered “secret” in a special meaning of a word?
I doubt it.
It’s not that you shouldn’t know Greek/Latin/Hebrew/Aramaic/Syriac/etc. It’s that you really are missing the point that there are plenty of expert translators and translations that will give you a very, very, VERY good sense of what the Scriptures say.
Yes, there are some word that have different shades of meanings. But that’s why a competent student of the Scriptures will read more than one translation.
Go ahead and learn Greek/Latin/Hebrew/Syriac. It will be helpful. But it’s not going to provide you with some devastating critique of theology.
If “knowing the Greek” is so important, then why isn’t the Greek Orthodox Church “protestant” in their theology? I mean, they read the New Testament every week “in the original Greek.” And they have a Greek liturgy that uses the Greek text.
It’s not a matter of language. It’s something else.
catocb,
The same can be said of the maunscripts used for the “catholic” translations (and has been argued regarding “faulty translation”). The point is, it appears that regardless of the translation or the manuscripts used…
The important points of what God intends for us to know come thru the same. The way someone interprets what they read comes thru the same also (depending on their true relationship with God).
ditto what steve said
I agree with Ilona. The discussion perhaps should have been postponed to a later date when emotions weren’t not at such a heightened state and normalcy had returned.
Sometimes less is indeed more.
Just wanted to add a note about the Greek, Hebrew and Latin comments here.
Latin is not necessary for understanding the Scriptures, however if you want to get into many of the Church Fathers, it could be helpful, tho there are many good translations available today.
The speeches and sayings recorded the Gospels and Acts probably were originally spoken in Aramaic, but that’s about it. All of them were written in Greek, so knowing Koine Greek is important, and any try and taking the Greek “back” into either Hebrew or Aramaic is futile.
I’ve taken both Greek and Hebrew, and find it helpful in my sermon prep, etc. But there are so many good word study books out there etc, that unless you plan on taking 3 or more years of it, you can easily do without it.
God bless La Shawn & keep standing tall!
Thanks for adding the part about Latin being necessary to understand Scripture. Not true. I completely missed that. For some reason, I thought it read “Hebrew.” And thanks for the encouragement, Louie.
And everybody!
By the way, to the ladies who said my timing was off, that’s already been acknowledged in a previous post. And trolls don’t need an excuse to troll. Lonely losers deserve our pity.
I may not have a degree in Bible theology, Greek, Hebrew (or any other language for that matter) but thanks to God the Father, I have John 3:16!
Frankly,
This is LaShawn’s blog and she can talk about whatever she wants when she wants to. If others have a problem with that..not her emergency. Get your own blog if you are that obsessed..:)
LB-
Not uncommon. Most people are incapable of defending their views with facts, theories, etc. They opt for the nuclear option (namecalling, labeling) because their intellect is so bankrupt that they cannot stand the thought that their ideology cannot be defended.
I appreciate the commenting policy here so much more than other sites for the simple fact that name calling and labeling are not tolerated. You get way more discussion done.
La Shawn:
Medical science has a cure for what ails trolls. The cure is called “magnesium citrate”. (If you don’t get the joke, then ask a physician what magnesium citrate is used for.)
Regarding the study of biblical languages, familiarity with Koine Greek helps a person to discern the literal translation of a New Testament verse when different English versions disagree on that particular verse’s translation.
Regarding the Reformed faith, I am on your side, although I am no longer a member of a Reformed congregation.
That is just to provide context to my saying I support LaShawn 100%. I am not some superficial knee jerk couch theologian…
Gee whiz, HiRez. Are you sure you qualified your answer enough? All sorts of interesting things in those sentences. But I get your point. I guess.
I’m a protestant who was raised Baptist. When I was young, I was taught that Catholics were going to hell. In my adulthood, I have discovered that this is no more true than the idea that somehow all protestants are automatically going to heaven. God chooses whom He will, and I have come to know many devout Catholics who will be great in God’s Kingdom, and not a few protestants who will not be inhabiting the Kingdom at all (at least , this is what I suspect. It is, thankfully, not my place to condemn).
It is always sad to lose a leader, especially a great one like JP2. But even his final words spoke truth to his belief that he is now in a better place, and was happy to be going there.
As for this blog, I came here primarily because I knew beforehand it had both spiritual and political content. Just a cursory glance will tell those with even basic reading comprehension that this place has an abundance of both. What I find unfortunate is that La Shawn is somehow not allowed to express her opinion without being vehemently attacked. Unfortunate, but I suppose not unexpected.
One thing is certain. I have no doubt that such attacks would not be endorsed by either Christ, or the Pope, regardless of the reason they were made.
I disagree with La Shawn’s position, but that’s not the problem here. Intelligent minds can discuss, argue, and in the end either come to common ground or agree to disagree. The blogosphere is big enough for all of us.
But the timing is terrible. For goodness sake, we’re talking about calling into question the religious belief of a billion people at time when we are in mourning over the loss of perhaps our greatest leader in modern times. It’s disrespectful.
As I pointed out in an email to La Shawn, its akin to a stranger at the back of the church during Grandma’s funeral whispering to the family around her that we all know she wasn’t faithful to Grandpa.
From La Shawn’s limited comments, it’s clear she is in strong disagreement with the Catholic Church. We can have this discussion — we should have this discussion. But not right now.
No, instead I really think an apology is in order. Not for the comments, but for the timing. It would be to your credit to say, “I was so focused on the issue of salvation that I didn’t think about how I might upset my Catholic readers. For that, I apologize. I’m going to put this topic aside for a month and then revisit it once we have had some time and distance.”
Because I really do want to hear whether you think I’m going to hell. Just not now
More evidence that people don’t often read entire posts. They prefer to vent about certain parts. In the post titled, “Courage Under Fire,” I wrote the following:
I’m the first to admit my timing may have been off, knowing how sensitive people can be. Emotions are running high at a time like this. But that’s all I’ll concede. What I wrote about salvation needs to be said all the time, and that was my focus. I’ve attacked no one.
That’s as close to an apology as I’m going to get, considering I’ve done nothing to apologize for. And whether you’re going to hell or not is between you and God.
L to the B et al.
I think you missed my point. I did not claim that learning Latin is useful to studying the scriptures (although it is terribly useful in studying the works of the early Christian leaders and believers…and as an added bonus for you Prods, Latin will allow you to read Milton in the original!)
No, I believe that LaShawn et al may find Greek a very, very difficult language to learn–especially if you have a day job!
To go from English to Greek is quite difficult.
To go from English to Latin to Greek is a much smoother road.
I realize that most would not have the time to learn Latin and Greek, but turn off the tv and you’ll be amazed at how much time you save.
More evidence that people don’t often read entire posts.
Au contraire, I did read the post. And I was responding to it. My, ahem, apologies for not doing a better job of linking the two.
But I’m really sorry that you don’t believe you’ve done anything to apologize for.
Amen La Shawn!
You have nothing whatsoever to apologize for. Sometimes the truth hurts, but what hurts more is not knowing the truth especially when the stakes are so high. Keep up the good work!
Learning any new language is good for your mind. Learning Greek and Hebrew would help you understand and feel at ease with how the writers of Scripture thought. If you only learn Greek you would be able to read the OT in the Septuagint, which according to one of my profs was the worst translation of Scripture ever until the Living Bible came out. You might not become an expert but I’m sure you would enjoy it. Hebrew Scripture is full of puns. Knowing the original languages would add zest to your personal Bible study if nothing else.
P.S. A small portion of Daniel is in Aramaic and Jesus spoke Aramaic although the NT is written in Greek. Bible commentaries whose author knows Aramaic can be annoying because they keep guessing about the Aramaic word Jesus used and what he “really” said. Sort of a Conservative version of the Jesus Seminar. An intermediate Greek course I took used a text by a Roman Catholic scholar. Our professor used it because it was a very good text and because he could point out how a different interpretation of the use of a preposition by the writer could yield a different theological position.
Or you could take the position of an acquaintance of one of my cousins on the King James Version: “If it was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it’s good enough for me.”
I’ve spent years looking at both sides of the Protestant/Catholic issue, as a believer who has personally struggled with the deep issues of faith in Christ, and one thing really strikes me. I repeatedly see angst traveling in the direction from Reformers to Catholics, but seldom the other way around. I’m talking on a public discourse, pulpit level. The challenge most often flows from Reformer to Catholic, while Catholics seem to be much more at peace on the topic.
That disturbs me.
People, people, people! The thing is God doesn’t care how smart we are, He doesn’t care how theologically gifted we think we are. Whether Protestant or Catholic, Jew or Gentile the fundamental question we have to face is: What will you do with Jesus? How we respond to this question day by day, hour by hour determines if we are in right relationship with God… This is not rocket science! Ultimately the only thing that matters at the end of life is what we have done with Jesus and what we allow Him to do through and with us… peace!!!
Scott:
I’m not sure what you are disturbed about or why. On EWTN, I notice many of the people are aware of evangelicals and people of reformed theological positions and often speak to them as well as to people of other theological positions. That makes sense to me, since I suspect people of all theological persuasions watch EWTN from time to time.
mdeberry:
Paul exhorts us in I Cor 14:20 “in understanding be men.” That was the title of the first book on theology that I checked out of my church library. Elsewhere Paul scolds believers who have not grown in their faith. The theologically naive are prime targets for cults. We all know that we are to accept Christ with the simplicity of a child. We are not to stay children, however.
Ditto Evon,
As for the various languages, I’d say the ancients are useful for personal edification and in ministry, but NOT necessary in the sense of divining the “truth”. I passed up learning any of those “dead” languages, nevertheless, I frequently come up with a renewed appreciation or perspective when I read the Bible in German. More often than not, the relevation is found just in the nuance.
But as noted by others before, the various translations have been worked and reworked to the point that there ain’t no secret code waiting to be revealed.
John 3:16 is true whether read/recited in Greek, English, Hymong, Swahili or even, dare I say it, Ebonics?
As for the Pope, all I can say is if he’s gone to be with our Lord and Savior, why is anyone mourning? This is a time for celebration, not weeping. We ought to be weeping for lost souls, not for those who went on to glory!
OTOH, the world hasn’t stopped because JP2 died, so let the discussions continue, afterall thousands are dying daily only to wake up in hell.
As for his replacement, I think it would be cool if the next was Chinese, that’ll really upset the Peking cart, barring that, perhaps one from the Middle East.
Evan: Point taken. It seems to me, however, the posts on this issue from others seem pretty childish and condescending. And by the way, how come so many of the theological and intellectual types have bought into the ‘cult’ of secularism, or the ‘cult’ of materialism, or the ‘cult’ of pragmatism???
Andy,
You consider Hebrew a dead language?
Mdeberry,
Your original post says that “God doesn’t care how smart we are.” Now, you call the posters “childish?” Do you mean petulant? I don’t find them childish. One of the reasons I like to read this blog is because I enjoy the comments.
Evan: You got me again…maybe childish was a little harsh. And I also reading the comments. I guess my overall point is: the death of JPII has highlighted the real diffrences in the Protestant and Catholic view of Christ. Differences that will probably never be resolved this side of heaven…
I don’t think La Shawn needs to apologize for the timing – good grief, for all that Karol W. was, he was just the pope. He had lots of good qualities – but he was a created being, not the eternal Godhead. I don’t he would be impressed with the hue and cry about timing. Like Mary, he would reply “do whatever He (Jesus) says.”
If La Shawn was saying something bad about Karol W., then that’s another issue.
And to bring up the “grandmother” analogy – if my grandmother died, and we discussed some of her beliefs and actions at the funeral _at the back of the church where most guests didn’t sit_, then that’s the way it goes. La Shawn didn’t drive over to St. Peter’s Basilica and start shouting from a megaphone that the pope secretly ate cheeseburgers on Friday. (North American joke there.) She made her comments in her own private blog, where if you don’t like what she says, there’s this handy “X” icon in the top right of the window that you can use to avoid unpleasant-to-you topics.
Enough with the victim attitude. It’s very distracting, and doesn’t reflect well upon anyone who uses it as a defense.
And with regards to Greek to Latin to English, I daresay that this is more inaccurate than Greek to English, because you don’t get any intermediate errors, such as “penance” for “repentance.”
Evon, once again I was generalizing, even tho I wasn’t particularly thinking of Hebrew. The term “dead” was overkill when “ancient” should have sufficed.
My analogy would be that one doesn’t need to know anything beyond the user interface to use or even depend on a computer. But if one really wants to get under the hood, then learning some of the ancient/dead programming languages could be useful
To quote Omniglot at http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hebrew.htm
Origin:
The earliest Hebrew script was derived from a Phoenician script. The modern Hebrew script was developed from a script known as Proto-Hebrew/Early Aramaic.
Used to write:
Hebrew, a Semitic language and the official language of Israel. Hebrew was the language of the early Jews, but fell out of use as an everyday spoken language and was replaced by Aramaic about 2,500 years ago. Hebrew continued to be used as a liturgical language since then and was revived as a spoken language in the early 20th century. Today about 5 million people in Israel speak Modern Israeli Hebrew. A further 2-3 million people speak the language in Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Palestinian West Bank and Gaza, Panama, the UK and USA.
Another good resource is http://www.ancient-hebrew.org.
For most people, self included, a modern day translation — KJV for me — coupled with a good commentary or two is good enough for everyday discipleship. Naturally, one would have to be able to trust their sources, as noted by your example of scholars guessing at Aramaic meanings. That said, the NT Bereans are a good example of why everyone should avoid dogma about their preferred sources, and be prepared to grow in their knowledge and understanding.
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