How much does racial discrimination explain? So far as black poverty is concerned, I’d say little or nothing, which is not to say that every vestige of racial discrimination has been eliminated. But let’s pose a few questions. Is it racial discrimination that stops black students from studying and completing high school? Is it racial discrimination that’s responsible for the 68 percent illegitimacy rate among blacks?
“How not to be poor” is classic Walter Williams. When I first started writing my little column, I wrote about the same things and got plenty of hate mail for the trouble. What should be common sense is often viewed as “self-hatred” by black liberals. I argued that blacks’ biggest problem was their own behavior, which is true for any other human being.
I’d get e-mails with questions like this one, usually from black women who called themselves taking me to task: “You mean to tell me you don’t think racism still exists?”
I’ve never said nor even implied such a thing, but “racism” is so inconsequential to black people’s lives in 2005 as to be laughably negligible. Given the extent of social pathology in certain “black communities,” I can’t tell you how embarrassing it is to hear black men in expensive suits blaming immoral behavior on “racism.” It’s archaic, tired, shameful and unimaginative. It bores me to tears as they prattle on about “racism,” as if white people have that kind of power over blacks. We’re teaching our children that if they fail, blame the white man.
So how can one avoid poverty? You’ve heard them before, but here’s a rundown of a few general factors in case you’ve forgotten:
- Graduate from high school.
- Get married before you have children, and stay married.
- Work at any kind of job, even one that starts out paying the minimum wage.
- Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.
The second and fourth are especially problematic in urban areas. Incidentally, removing the stigma against out-of-wedlock pregnancies was probably the worse thing to happen to black people. Whenever I meet a black child with a residential biological father, I’m in awe. Expectations are quite low.
Black liberals often claim that government schools stink because of racism, although some of those same schools have outrageously high per pupil expenditures. You’ve been sold a bill of putrid goods if you believe bad urban government schools are a “civil rights” problem (It is NOT), and Williams agrees with my assessment. He writes:
Washington, D.C. public schools, as well as many other big city schools, are little more than educational cesspools. Per student spending in Washington, D.C., is just about the highest in the nation. D.C.’s mayors have been black, and so have a large percentage of the city council, school principals, teachers and superintendents. Suggesting that racial discrimination plays any part in Washington, D.C.’s educational calamity is near madness and diverts attention away from possible solutions.
Come to think of it, the District of Columbia is a black-run city with a black mayor. Blacks are everywhere in the D.C. government, and high up, too. They’re also scandal-prone, the latest being City Administrator Robert Bobb, who’s apparently done some unscrupulous hiring. Well, how much can you expect from a city that re-elected crack smoker Marion “*itch set me up!” Barry as mayor and recently re-elected him to the D.C. Council? Stupidity, not racism, has everything to do with the subpar performance of this black-run city.
It’s pitiful, really, that the blacks tasked to run things often turn out to be crooks, and not very smart ones at that.
I must say that government services have improved under Anthony Williams. One thing I’d suggest is training employees to be polite. (There was a time when such training wasn’t necessary.) For instance, the Department of Motor Vehicles is full of sour-faced black women who either hate their jobs specifically or working in general. At this point black liberal readers are usually up in arms when I write such things about other blacks, especially with white people reading. Dirty laundry, and all that. But it’s true, and more importantly, they know it’s true. One or two polite black women don’t make up for the majority who aren’t. Nice try, though.
Back to Williams. He writes:
Bill Cosby had the courage to speak out against individual irresponsibility. Surely those who profess to have the best interests of blacks at heart should be able to summon the courage to do so as well.
I’ve got the courage, Mr. Williams. People can balk all they want, but it is right conduct, pride, and decency that will improve conditions of “poor” blacks, not loose living, grievance-shopping and welfare checks.
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You’ve been sold a bill of putrid goods if you believe bad urban government schools are a “civil rights†problem (It is NOT)
Conservatives as well as some Blacks are selling this line.
Per student spending in Washington, D.C., is just about the highest in the nation.
Until someone can compare per pupil spending in D.C., broken down by “special education” and “regular education” and amount that goes to infrastucture and amount that goes to administrations to some other areas, that simple statement means nothing to me.
I’ve been trying to find out that break down, off and on, for about 10 years now.
Dr. Williams makes great sense, causing much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the left. Too bad.
La Shawn:
Thanks for speaking out. The word “racism” has been so mis used as to be almost meaningless. If I disagree with Jesse Jackson,I am racist.
In Shreveport, the DMV employees of the same color as those in DC are much more polite, so “racism” doesn’t create rude bahavior.
Does racism still exist? Just listen to the latest from “Calypso Louie”. And, yes, there are still a few “Rednecks” still around, but there are few enough to be ignored.
DS,
I think the point is that the money the district recieves in ratio to its student body is grossly inflated. That much of that money is spent on things other than the students is clear. Some things, like the cost of land and some service will be more expensive by virtue of being in a city. But the rest…
Anyway, that there is corruption and incompetence sucking on these children like leeches and lice is clear.
As to why you can’t find a breakdown… they don’t ever want the taxpayers to know how the money is spent; it has a history of pissing them off.
Touche!
Can one express disgust with the behavior of many blacks without being lynched? Ask any liberal which race is more “prone” to be “racist”, blacks or whites? By the time he gets to the third paragraph he will tell you that whites bear some sort of collective responsibility for slavery. And that whites “Just end up discriminating” more than others.
I saw John Edwards the other day speaking about the “ASSET GAP” in America. Whites retire with more assets statistically than browns or blacks. Mr. Edwards claims white racism for this fact. THIS is much of the problem. INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOR is the reason for most “gaps’ in America. Not racism. No one argues that blacks excell in sports. That’s why the NBA is about 75% black. No discrimination here. But when askes why whites retire with more than others that logic evaporates. Call whites uptight and stiff but as a whole they manage to pay the bills and show up for work regularly. Home ownership over many years is the path to assets in retirement. Not preferential treatment ’cause theyr’e white.
Meanwhile in the “culture” that has been sold to blacks the last two or three decades this path is a sellout. How would MTV portray a black teen taking a job a Burger King? Is he sacrificing now for a better future, or is he some souless loser who won’t be getting the girl? Get rich or die trying! What a insult to a whole generation of blacks! Real leaders like Mr. Williams as well as Rev. Jackson,(NOT JESSIE)- both of which I learned of in this blog, are capable of much good in the “black community”. The best thing we can do to help is shine the light of truth on liberals and the dammage they’ve done to a whole generation. By attempting for years to divide us by race they’ve shown themselves as they really are: Racist!
LaShawn, you are on my turf when dealing with this subject as you know for years now I have been designing and implementing urban innercity economic development programs.
And the reason I categorically reject your guy WW’s (Walters) bland assesment of social success is because it is superficial.
“Graduate from high school.
Get married before you have children, and stay married.
Work at any kind of job, even one that starts out paying the minimum wage.
Avoid engaging in criminal behavior.”
And post-development 20/20 hindsight crap.
Racism is the powder keg that ignited black social deformity. Period. In America you can not deny that, get around it or minimize it.
On my television show last week, I started a series on the etiology of racism and its affects on black economics past, present and future. I have also just started writing a book on the subject.
Pre-colonial West-Africa (where you and I came from about 15 or so generations ago), the kingdoms of Ghana, Mali, and Songhay and one of if not they, most advanced civilizations in terms of wealth, social structure, trade etc. With Europeans and Arabs acknowledging this, and more than will to trade on the West Coast of Africa.
So the question becomes this, how can you have a group of Africans, who came from an area of a continent that had refined economic systems, where slaves were traded or taken, because of their agrarian, and other skills. And then look at our state today, where we historically HAVE ALWAYS been at least ten times behind the average white in terms of wealth, and other community health indicators?
The problem I have with you conservatives, and why I switched to independent, is because you fail to acknowledge that social forces external to the individual guide behavior. The bad part about it is that you uses these same social forces everyday. Example, change in interest rate, propaganda pieces released during war, COMMERCIALS, etc. I could go on and on. It is basic sociology and psychology. Yet when it applies to the phenomena which is the “black-american” a group of people that is disimilar to any other group that has ever existed on the face of the earth…
The best you guys can come up with, in the face of persistant and continued gaps is:
Ni^&er just get a job.
Dell, your last line was offensive, not to mention ridiculous. But I suppose it fits with your oft-rehashed victimology philosophy.
Can you please tell us the exact reasons why the advice offered by Dr. Williams is wrong? Please tell us what the negatives are to graduating, marrying before having children, working, and not being a crook.
Or perhaps you are saying that those things can’t be accomplished because racism won’t allow them to be. Interesting that so many successful blacks have never gotten the memo.
In response to poster #8 …
You said, “social forces external to the individual guide behavior.” Sure they do. Social forces “guided” some of my ancestors into slave-owning and racism, but society demanded a change of heart and behavior, and rightly so.
But, good morning! It’s the 21st Century, and white America has pretty much run out of ways to fix the black community by ourselves, and we’re tired of the blame. No social program, tax break, anti-discrimination law or welfare program will fix the problem if people do not take minimal responsibility for their own behavior.
Redbeard…
You can’t have it both ways…as a conservative…and what I implied by my last line IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT…
And this is why, the term ni$%er is used to symbolize inferiority based upon race that was developed in America. Although the terminology isn’t vocaled as much as it used to be the sentiment behind it is still very much alive, even when you neo-cons & leftist liberals (you both do it in different ways) don’t recognize it and this is how. (Oh by the way, I don’t care if you were offended, the majority of neo-cons position on race I find very offensive).
Individual-Responsibility, implies than individual self-determinism is the sole reason for success. IE the success of the individual is directly related to the internal positive attribute of self-determinism. Converserly, the failure of the individual is associated with the negative attribute of sloth or lack of determinism. Dual sides of the same coin.
Now what the neo-cons do to eliminate any corporate governmental responsibility for effecting true social change, particularly amongst black Americans is remove the social context and macro variabls which lead to self-determinism and reflect it directly back to individiuals who are not self-determined. I could go into Bandura’s social learning theory in psychology or the Cultural Transmission theory in sociology, but that is beyond the scope of this argument.
Why I find such simplistic statements towards success like the ones mentioned by WW above, is this:
1st it gives a false sense of the nature of the problem and how to correct it. Is he false in his assertion? No. But to reduce a complex sociological phenomenon to a four point statement is assinine.
2nd positive attributes are ascribed towards white americans as a group, and negative attribute are ascribed to black Americans as a group perpetuating the inferiority myth which has driven American racism, particularly as it relates to self-determinism. Remember, we are talking group now, not individual. Whites have 10 times more wealth at retiring age, blah blah and all the other good stats etc. Remember we are in group mode now.
So whites are ceded with the positive attribute of self-determined behavior AS A GROUP.
Then the statement is made, collectively AS A GROUP, that it is simple for blacks to succeed if they demonstrate these four (self-determined) characteristics of school, marriage etc. Directly stating that as a group, THEY DO NOT. MEANING as a group we have the negative attribute of Sloth or lack of self-determinism.
And you know what RedBeard. I have no problem with an individual saying that per percentage of population blacks on the whole are less self-determined than whites as a whole in America. What I have a huge problem with is eliminating the sociological context from the equation, and putting the burden purely upon the back of the individual.
Why?
Because you can’t have it both ways, you either say it is nature or it is nuture. By your argument, you remove the nurture argument from the equation as most neo-cons do. You imply that self-determinism is a trait everyone should have when you say JUST DO THIS and you will be successful. So if the nurture argument which is the sociological impact argument, is dead. You only have left the NATURE argument.
The nature argument states that blacks are inherently inferior which is the reason for their failings. This is the biological argument used by the pseudo-scientific racist in the 1800’s, and is tactily implied in todays neo-con arguments. And so you may not say ‘ni$%er’. But the sentiment resides in the argument by basis of what the word historically has been meant…BLACK INFERIORITY.
Secondly, if you want to debate me on the subject we can set up a conference call, upload it as a streaming audio, and post it on my website and a Neo-Con website of your choice.
You are a victim if you have been victimized, and justice doesn’t occur until justice has been done.
Mr. Gines,
Your point seems to overlook the responsibility of each individual to better their personal lot. If I take a kid from Southeast DC and tell him at 4, 5, 6 and 7 that you will run a good chance of being locked up or shot, and I continue to reinforce that message to him when he is 11, 12, 13 and 14, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
If I tell him that racisim inhibits his growth and development, then any obstical he encounters he can attribute to racisim.
However, if I take that same kid and tell him, “we expect you to go to college.” “we expect you to succeed” , “There is nothing in your way that you cannot overcome,” that little boy or little girl stands a greater chance of success.
There has not been a white person on the planet who, to my knowledge, has impeaded my ability to succeed because I was black. Have some been unwilling to give me what I wanted when I wanted it? Sure. Does the thought run through my mind. You betcha.
Black success requires NURTURE. The only ones who can nurture the success of black folks is black folks. Dr. King didn’t ask white folk to nurture us, he asked that we not be inhibited.
And if you can look around, 40 years later, and honestly say nothings changed then you have missed the sublime beauty of what the struggle as brought.
As I look out of my office window, I know what the struggle has brought. I am thankful for it. Now I have to live the dream.
“I’ve never said nor even implied such a thing, but “racism†is so inconsequential to black people’s lives in 2005 as to be laughably negligible.”
This is one point I must vehemently disagree with. I see it each and every day in various and sundry ways. Sometimes it’s the well-intentioned yet foolish remark of someone close to me. Sometimes it’s outright disgust at my presence where I “shouldn’t” be. It is a recognizable factor in the lives of Blacks and every other non-caucasian group in the United States.
Now to point out a dicrepancy that probably describes what you meant, though I don’t want to presume to speak for you, “perceived” racism and it’s tangible effects on the lives of the average American are much less than believed. Although they do still have their effect.
In other words, although there isn’t an intentional Klansman around every corner, the spirit of the KKK lives on quite happily in the hearts of Whites and Blacks. It reveals itself a little every time someone allows the term “those people” or anything like it to come out of their mouths.
Not that I’m free of guilt in this, because I’ve certainly had my moments when, especially while watching television, I’ll think something generic about White people. Thankfully though, by God’s help, it now stings my soul every time I do it, and I’m learning the shame of careless thought.
Dell,
There’s no way I can go toe to toe with on this issue. Your experience of developing urban programs far outweighs my 4 years in a “tough” school in Austin, hardly east L.A. But I can challenge you on one thing.
What do you recommend blacks do about the situation? Give teachers and parents something concrete to tell their kids. What do they do while they’re waiting for society to change? What could I take to the classroom with me to encourage those kids? Are they stuck until someone else does something about it?
That’s what rang true in La Shawn’s post, though you called them superficial. Shouldn’t teachers and parents encourage kids to do those 4 things?
Those are things they do have control over. Yes, there are outside influences. Yes, the odds are against them. But does that mean they shouldn’t try?
You say it’s assinine to “reduce a complex sociological phenomenon to a four point statement”. How else can we transalte it into something usable, especially for kids?
I’m not talking the “you can be anything you want to be” line. That is superficial. It’ more like “do the best you have with what you’ve got” line. Everybody can do that, regardless of who and where they are.
This may be seem like “putting the burden purely upon the back of the individual” while “eliminating the sociological context”, but it’s not. It’s giving people some way to deal with their current situation while trying, if they choose, to enact change in a larger context, like you’re doing.
(Just out of curiosity, and pardon me if it’s too personal, but did you achieve those four points La Shawn brought up? Are those superficial achievements? Without having done at least 3 of the 4,you probably wouldn’t be in your current position of influence.)
So, I’ll be looking for your “action items” that kids can use on their own. Of course, the more support they have, the better. But there still has to be something for them to use now, in the midst of where they are.
BTW, why does it have to be nature or nurture? Of course it’s both.
Ah, those dastardly neo-cons! Dell, the nanny government’s record of dealing with poverty and racism is clear to all. The record of the Great Society is almost unblemished by success. We have been spending and regulating for almost 40 years, and things are getting worse. Stomping on the gas will not move the car if the engine is fried, and increasing spending and regulation will not move society.
There is one huge flaw in your argument. It is the welfare statists’ philosophy that implies that blacks are inherently inferior (and thus in need of a huge array of government programs and protections), not its critics such as Walter Williams. Indeed, the assumed inherent inferiority of blacks is a cornerstone of the welfare state. Without it, there is no one to “help”, and the clientele for the welfare state is reduced to relatively few individuals. No political future in that, which is why it is not popular with the Left.
“Work at any kind of job, even one that starts out paying the minimum wage”—LaShawn Barber.
Yes, because something is always better than nothing.
I would go one step further, and say, in addition to carrying a minimum wage job……do volunteer work, or an internship in the field you are interested in.
There are too many Blacks who aren’t open to volunteer, or unpaid internships because they think it’s akin to slave labor. Hel-lo? Internships lead to the best paying assignments and prestigious contacts. Of course paid interships are even better, though hard to get.
That’s how I did it. I got my foot in the door with an unpaid internship, while I kept my head above water with a very unglamorous minimum wage job. The internship led to a very good full-time position, and I’ve never looked back.
I can’t even imagine where I’d be had I turned my nose up at minimum wage and volunteer assignments.
P.S. ——Racism can’t possibly explain poverty, otherwise there’d be lots of impoverished Asian Americans. Asian Americans face the exact same skin color, and racism……yet they’ve done very well for themselves. How come?
Dell stated: “Oh by the way, I don’t care if you were offended…” Ah. Thanks for the clarification about your lack of concern.
Now let me clarify something. What I said was that your ill-advised “n” reference was offensive, but not just to me. In my opinion it was offensive, in general, to anyone who finds race-baiting distasteful.
Boy, are you bold, LaShawn. (That, of course, is one of the many reasons so many adore you.)
You are absolutely correct, of course. And I guess that makes me ‘racist,’ too. But it makes me so, so sad to see a whole group of people locked into a prison of their own minds and fears and…well, poor teaching, I guess.
I give you hugs in the meantime, as I’m sure you’ll get lots of hatemail for this.
Mark L.R. Your honesty is refreshing as you illustrate a wonderful point. Is it racism to “think something generic” about white people. Here is where a definition of racism would really come in handy. (But there can never be one because once defined it’s usually today’s accusers who best fit whatever definition is agreed upon). So, is thinking generic thoughts about a race bad? Is there a diference between discrimination and racism? Should someone who thinks asians are good in math seek counseling? Is someone who thinks blacks are, pound for pound physically strong hurting blacks- or anyone?
It’s time for us all to act like grown-ups. Acknowledging similarities among races doesn’t necessarily make one bad. Playing on peoples emotions for personal or ploitical gain DOES! The left’s answer has been for years to first deny the existence of races. “Social structure” and other nonsense you read about in the Sunday editions of BIG MEDIA . Then the answer morphed into interbreeding among diferent races. Look at ANY TV commercial aimed at young people today. If you aren’t mixing races you must be racist. Diversity has become a NATIONAL GOAL according the US supreme court!
What NO ONE mentions is that there cannot be diversity without races! Once we’ve blended the gene pool there cannot ever be “diversity” again! Now that it’s Legally Mandated by unelected judges how can we achieve this goal?
My point is this. I refuse to be baited or trapped because I am observant enough to see similarities among selected groups. This used to be called “the scientific method.” Today’s Racial Manipulators call it judgement. Watch out for the manipulators.
In my experience, people have prejudices, and they can be about the damnedest things. Otherwise presumably competent people hold preconceived opinons based on your age, sex, height, accent, clothing, hair color, college, political party, pick one. Pick several. At any rate, you will inevitably meet somebody who will decide that you are not up to their standards because you are a (fill-in-the-blank).
My favorites are the mediocre Ivy-league graduates. They think they are better than the best of all the rest of their class, because of the history of the school that they graduated from, and they’ll actually tell you all about it! Their casual lack of discretion is astonishing. I have had the experience, on more than one occasion, of having some dweeb tell all about being forced to interview applicants from “substandard” schools — just because the candidates had managed to secure very prestigious government training positions afterward! And I smiled and let them talk, and never gently reminded them that it has been more than a century since there were only ten graduate schools in this country, and that work experience tends to trump school identity for most people.
The reason I don’t bother to battle these people is, they don’t matter. They didn’t keep me out of grad school, they didn’t keep me from working, or from making good money. They have no say in where I live, or shop, or do anything else I want to do. For sure, I’ve had people like that push me out of a job. But then, I didn’t want to work with them because they weren’t smart enough for me. I found a better job (twice). It’s a big country out there, with plenty of opportunity for everybody. And, life is too short to work with morons.
So, yes, prejudice, including race prejudice, is real, but it will not keep anybody with ambition from getting a good education or a good job, prestige, wealth or a happy family. Those things are in the hands of the individual.
Now, if anybody figures out how to persuade a “knucklehead” to straighten up, please publish it, because we all want to know.
The last time I checked, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was only about 1 generation ago. Slavery, racism, and Jim Crowe (insitutionized no less) segregation lasted far more than 1 generation (that’s roughly 30 years).
People like pajamazon and Geek Girl Blonde can’t go around and say “black people it’s the 21st century – get over it!” You’re talking about centuries of indoctrination into a cultural mindset that black people are subhuman. 1 generation does NOT reverse the effects. White people institutionalized this thought into white culture and into black people themselves. It always takes the victim a lot longer to “GET OVER IT” than it does the perpetrator. 1 generation is NOT enough time to reverse the collective emotional scars & damage done by white institutionalized racism.
Here’s another example of a people left damaged by white racism. Native Americans. They might have their reservations, but any study will show that those reservations are not bastions of glory. They are some of the poorest institutions in the country. The negative effects of institutionalized racism have left the native american people – of all tribes – in a 2nd class state, despite their freedoms. It’s the aggregate effect of centuries of dehumanization of these people that leave them in a caged mindset.
Do white people collectively deserve blame? Yes – the recognition of blame. Do problems in the black community come from white racism? Look at history and you can clearly see that the root causes of those problems came from white racism.
The barriers have been removed, however, and black people as a whole need to see that. The fact that people like Walter Williams can see that – superficially or not – is a positive sign that more and more black people are breaking out of that old mold.
Just because you think you got over something doesn’t mean you are healed. Think of the most devasting emotional experiences in your life and how quickly you recovered – if you have at all. Often the experience changes your mindset – you are no longer the same trusting person you were. It takes a long time to be healed and regain yourself.
Collectively, black people have not been healed or delivered from the centuries of slavery and years of dehumanizing Jim Crow segregation. You can’t say in 1 generation, black people should turn it around and just get over it.
Is it time to move forward? Yes. The opportunities are there. But that is why folks like Walter Williams who made it out of that mindset should turn around and help others out of that mindset too.
But for some in here to be all offended – YOU need to get over it.
I read Dell Gines’ comments this morning and was outraged. I went home, had lunch, reread them, and I’m outraged again. The fundamental paradigm behind them can, I think, be summed up quite easily:
IT’S ALL WHITEY’S FAULT!
The argument can be dressed up in any amount of scholarly terms and verbiage, but it fundamentally removes any responsibility for failure from the individual and transfers it to the dominant group in society, i.e. white people. This idea itself neatly incorporates two kinds of racism: white people are racist, and black people are inherently and unalterably powerless victims who’ll never get “justice” until somebody hands it to them on a silver platter.
I reject both ideas.
I was really outraged because Gines shifts the argument and sets up a straw man to attack Williams’ very reasonable opinions. First, Williams does not offer a “bland assesment of social success”, but rather a prescription for “avoiding long-term poverty.” Can it reasonably be argued that his four points AREN’T a basic recipe for avoiding poverty? Gines argues “to reduce a complex sociological phenomenon to a four point statement is assinine.” If Williams was trying to offer a theory of why blacks have historically trailed whites in socio-economic terms, I’d agree. However, that’s not William’s intent. Rather, he’s offering steps that INDIVIDUALS can take to avoid the trap of long-term poverty that too often becomes a legacy from generation to generation.
Gines sets up another straw man when he asserts that Williams somehow attributes “good” characteristics to whites as a group and “bad” characteristics to blacks as a group. Nowhere in Williams’ column do these ideas appear. Rather, he cites census data to demonstrate that the socio-economic outcomes tend to be the same for whites and blacks who show the same behaviors (i.e. meet his four criteria). The converse of the argument – and I suppose this is where the “blacks = bad” straw man arises – is that significant portions of black society tend NOT to meet the criteria, and the objective evidence indicates that this has an adverse effect on their socio-economic outcomes.
Williams does not “fail to acknowledge that social forces external to the individual guide behavior.” What he DOES say is that, “So far as black poverty is concerned, I’d say little or nothing [is due to racism], which is not to say that every vestige of racial discrimination has been eliminated.” I suppose that by saying this, he’s committed the egregious sin of failing to mouth the party line espoused by Jesse Jackson, “Calypso Louie” Farrakhan, and others: it’s all whitey’s fault, and only the government (led by the democrat party) can help.
We’ve seen the response to Bill Cosby making very similar arguments to those made by Williams and his fellow economist, Thomas Sowell: criticism, ostracicism, and vituperation. We’ve seen the response to successful black people like Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice failing to follow the party line and lick the hand of their liberal master and his straw bosses in three-piece suits: charges of “sell-out” and “Uncle Tom.” And in Gines’ arguments, we see the typical liberal ploy of accusing somebody of “attacking black people” for offering a bald criticism of the behavior of some segments of black society.
I’d like to take up the same question posed so well by Lexie: if not William’s prescription, then what? What does “society” tell black children to help them avoid drugs, single motherhood, poverty, ignorance, prison, and violent death?
And by the way, if “the term ni$%er is used to symbolize inferiority based upon race that was developed in America,” what about these terms:
spic
hick
mick
hunky
honky
limey
kraut
pollack
frog
wop
wog
slant
hebe
chink
raghead
redneck
damnyankee
etc, etc, etc?
As I’ve said before:
Uncle Tom
Climbs the rungs
And masters the corporate ladder.
But, all the while
His fellow blacks defile
Black-crackers lacking ghetto swagger.
So, Uncle Tom
Becomes Step-Uncle Tom
Divorcing those fellow blacks.
He no longer mourns
For a community who scorns
Then wonders why he doesn’t come or give back
“This is one point I must vehemently disagree with. I see it each and every day in various and sundry ways. Sometimes it’s the well-intentioned yet foolish remark of someone close to me.”
I thought LaShawn was quite clear that she didn’t think racism was non-existent, just that it is inconsequential to black peoples’ lives. You set up a strawman with the above quote.
You have not established causation between racism’s consequences and the existence of racism. Even Jesse and Al and their ilk (Mike King calls them the Soul Patrol) have never tried to prove causation – they just bandy the term about. If I call you a Ni***r, does that mean that you’ll quit your job and become a criminal? That you’ll teach your kids to be unemployed criminals? Of course not.
Therefore, someone being a racist around you does NOT hold you down. There is no causation.
TV (Harry)
Buck, your poem captures something that Warren Sapp said to me while we were having a ‘babershop’ debate with a professor of mine.
I found it interesting, to say the least, that someone who seemed to posses all of the financial resources one could imagine as well as ’street cred’ (he is Warren Sapp after all, who questions the cred of a 6′4″ 300+ lb bruh in braids[at the time]) lamenting the fact that he doesn’t like to go home because everyone is in his pockets, either trying to really rob him, or trying to have him finance far out ventures that won’t work. He said it wasn’t worth it.
My 1968 NYU graduate of a professor was horrified. Did he not know about the struggle? The racisim? The blah? The blah?
Me. I simply smiled, and reminded my professor of that which I had said several times before; “the revolution won’t be televised, but it is darn sure on pay-per-view. We better work hard so we can afford a ticket.”
Some of the comments here seem to suggest that blacks are too ignorant, stupid, and/or childish to figure out on their own how to succeed in society. That somehow white people have “indoctrinated” blacks into this “inferiority complex”, yet, the last time I checked it was black parents who were raising black children, those black children grow up and raise more black children, so on and so forth, so where exactly does Mr. Whitey come in and “indoctrinate” the blacks into this inferiority complex when it is only blacks who are raising blacks?
The four points that Mr. Williams has made and Miss Barber has elaborated upon are pretty simple and hit the nail on the head. Most of the time the simplest answer is the right answer, as the saying goes K-I-S-S.
“You’re talking about centuries of indoctrination into a cultural mindset that black people are subhuman. 1 generation does NOT reverse the effects.”
Why not? Who’s to say that, 200 years from now, one of your descendants won’t say “3 generations do NOT reverse the effects.”?
The point is this – racism is an excuse, not a reason. Black people in inner cities who have babies out of wedlock, or engage in criminal activity, CANNOT blame white people for their choices. NOTHING forced them to make these choices.
The main question is this – how long will racism be used as an excuse? What needs to be done, in your eyes, to correct this problem? Because no matter what white people do, it doesn’t seem to be enough.
TV (Harry)
Walter Williams findings are supported by economic research: In the late 1990s The Economist published an article (not on line) on academic research that showed that, in the USA, people who fell below the poverty level did not stay below poverty level for longer than a year if these three conditions were met:
They had completed and graduated from high school
They had married before having children, and had stayed married.
They had remained at their first job/first employer for at least one year.
As to whether one generation can reverse effects, my grandparents — who were essentially serfs in Spain — moved to Puerto Rico and flourished.
As a Hispanic, I could claim discrimination anytime I feel dissatisfied. Even when someone considers me a neo-con for agreeing with La Shawn.
“I thought LaShawn was quite clear that she didn’t think racism was non-existent, just that it is inconsequential to black peoples’ lives. You set up a strawman with the above quote.”
No I didn’t, I just disagreed that it is inconsequential. Completely disagree in fact. I also went on to explain that I agree it’s effects are overstated. Did you read all of my post?
“If I call you a Ni***r, does that mean that you’ll quit your job and become a criminal? That you’ll teach your kids to be unemployed criminals? Of course not.
Therefore, someone being a racist around you does NOT hold you down. There is no causation.”
Spoken like someone who’s never realized the full effects of the receiving end. Your first statement about my reaction to name calling is just condescending. Your second holds no water. Someone being a racist around me HAS THE POTENTIAL to hold me down depending on the person’s position of authority in relation to my life, as well as my reaction to it. If I “feel bad” and react badly, I have held myself down, yet racism was still the trigger. My fault? Yes. However the trigger remains.
I say again, it’s tangible effects on minorities are overstated. However, they do exist. My first concussion was at the hands of a group of White boys whose opening statement was “Whachu doin’ here Blacky?”
I was at my own school.
white people are poor as well, many of the same problems you have attributed to blacks exist in poor white communities as well. Indians and Chinese who have immigrated to this country and are working hard will begin to dominate this country before we know it; especially when white people become a minority in this nation. We must outlaw immigration, and we must outlaw immigration from those two nations.
“Spoken like someone who’s never realized the full effects of the receiving end.”
And as long as that statement is bandied about, there will never be an answer. You see, It’s a black thing, I wouldn’t understand.
Mark, I respectfully disagree with you, but for the sake of discussion, let’s assume you’re 100% correct. What’s next? What can be done, by blacks and/or whites, to remove the racism complex for good?
As I asked in a separate comment – what needs to be done, in your eyes, to correct this problem? Because no matter what is done, it doesn’t seem to be enough. What will be enough?
TV (Harry)
There needs to be enlightenment on the true sources of most problems. Especially those that are pshychological. Kids are taught by their parents and other adults as well as the mass media to distrust anyone who does not reflect their own standards. Skin color, political party, even style of dress comes into play in the trust/distrust argument.
Teach self-respect, respect for others humanity (not all their habits), discipline, hard work and the innate value of hard work, disagreement without hate, agreement without necessarily liking a person, patience, the value of diversity without making an idol of the differences, the ability to think for one’s self, critical thinking… these are all ways to defeat the effects of racisim.
The other end of the problem is defeating “justified hatred”. If a person’s every experience with people of a particular social or ethnic class is negative, then they have a “reason” for dislike, despite the fact that it is UNreasonable to ever assume that all of any one group are any one way. If I meet someone who hates people like me, I often find this to be the case, and more than once I’ve made inroads into that hatred.
We need two parent households and people unwilling to lower themselves to less than the best, and/or unwilling to greet a single sunset without having grown in some way.
There will always be racism until Christ restores the world, but we can make huge changes in it’s existence…if people are willing.
My Mennonite ancestors were part of a people who were brutalized and murdered and run out of Europe, arriving here in America with nothing but the clothes on their backs.
My Irish ancestors were used by the British crown as basically cannon fodder, sent to Ireland from Scotland to fight it out with the Irish, then shoved out of the country altogether, arriving here in America as political refugees.
I claim victim status for the sins committed against my ancestors.
I claim victim status for the sins committed against my ancestors.
You can keep the victim status. I want the realestate. Given how few Kiowa are left, I think I would be due a good chunk (handful of counties, at lest) or Iowa and Illinios.
And they thought the Dean Scream was the biggest nightmare of the Iowa primary… wait’ll they get a load’a me! (channeling Jack Nicholson)
At the risk of being pelted with virtual tomatoes I have a question to ask as a high school English teacher.
Historically, in any nation, one way to hold down the masses is to withhold education and literacy. White slave owners restricted access to reading and books (besides the Bible) because they KNEW education and access to conflicting ideas would promote dissention.
Why then would the culture of the inner cities (and this actually is cross-racial) not promote education? Why is it not considered a precious right that was once held from them? Why would they not grasp it in their hands and run with it? It is interesting to me that the things that were fought for in the Civil Rights Era are being withheld now by the culture they promote.
I can’t understand it!
SCSI, the Seminoles are doing pretty good right down the street from my office. Brand new Hard Rock Hotel and Casino. Huge complex. They’re getting even for the Seminole Wars by taking in huge piles of money. So I figure the Kiowa only need about 10 acres, right along the Mississippi near Bettendorf.
Sure, racism does exist; and it does have its consequences. This society is still White European (in its laws, foundation, etc) but there is a lie going around that the Black Person cannot be a participant in it. This is the most serious racism and it seems to have been handed down from the power-centers (white leftists). Outright bigotry still exists, however, but the most serious manifestations of this are normally confined to a few insignificant peckerwoods.
Nor does this mean that the Black Person must become White in essence and abandon true Black culture (not to be confused with the gutter culture portrayed in media and entertainment outlets). What is needed here is, in my opinion, Black heroes, those who have made it according to their own standards. I don’t know who that is, but Walter Williams is not a bad start!
I totally agree with the notion of responsibility and morality. Many times we as black people are our own worse enemy. Racism should not be used as an excuse for laziness, etc. But can we really say in 2005 “racism†is so inconsequential to black people’s lives as to be laughably negligible?
Aren’t there figures and studies that say blacks are still discriminated against when it comes to loans, housing, etc.? This is not an exscuse for dysfunctional behavior, etc. But is it negligible?
The fact is no matter how successful you are, being black in this country does make a difference.
I graduated from high school, college and earned a post-graduate degree. I didn’t have children until I was married and have never been charged with any criminal act. Although I have advanced degrees, there have been times when I have done jobs that some would say did not match my qualifications. My parents did not take or make exscuses. They emphasized education and I went to church every Sunday. But my father also knew racism was a reality and I have seen that reality throughout my life.
When I moved some years ago and called a real estate agent, I believe she thought I was white because of my husband’s job. She told me you don’t want to live on this side of town. “Just drive through there and you’ll see what I mean,” she said. I knew she meant that the area was predominately black because it was where I grew up.
Does my black son have a higher chance of having a deadly encounter with the police even if he isn’t engaged in criminal behavior just because of the color of his skin? I don’t know if there are any stats, but I believe it. Would the reaction to the little girl being handcuffed by the police been different if she was white and the officers were black? I don’t know. Maybe not. But I think so.
Does this have an effect on black people? Probably so. Should we hold one another accountable and not just look down our noses at those who are less fortunate for whatever reason but also do whatever we can to help? Without a doubt. Does racism stop us from succeeding or overcoming poverty? Definitely not. Is the “man” to blame? We give the “man” too much power that we possess within ourselves. But is racism negligible? I don’t think so.
There are too many Blacks who aren’t open to volunteer, or unpaid internships because they think it’s akin to slave labor.
I’d like to see hard data to support this claim.
I definitely see otherwise.
I’ll never forget reading, in Maya’s “I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings”, the anecdote of her being treated rudely by a black store clerk in Africa and, having been taken completely off guard, thinking, “Perhaps it wasn’t racism all along. “Perhaps it was simply rude clerks!” (Not quoting – paraphrasing.)
It’s probably more true than we care to admit.
Andrea,
Thomas Sowell has recently written a book called “Black Rednecks” that I think answers your question. He also wrote a column on the subject last week.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20050505.shtml
“… few people are aware of how much of what passes as black identity today, including “black English,” has its roots in the history of those whites who were called “rednecks” and “crackers” centuries ago in Britain, before they ever crossed the Atlantic and settled in the South… They brought with them more than their own dialect. They brought a whole way of life that made antebellum white Southerners very different from white Northerners.
“Violence was far more common in the South — and in those parts of Britain from which Southerners came. So was illegitimacy, lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery. All of this would become part of the cultural legacy of blacks, who lived for centuries in the midst of the redneck culture of the South…”
The “redneck culture” has been a blight on the South for whites as well as blacks. I’m ashamed to point toward the various rankings of education and literacy in the the states; the Southern states tend to be clustered right at the bottom. Because the South was agrarian for so long, education beyond basic reading and math was never especially valued, and certainly not as highly valued as being able to put in a full day’s work in the fields. The result was generations of impoverished Southerners trying to eake out a living by farming (and often falling into debt peonage) or working in textile mills.
One of the sad things about the “too cool for school” mentality among some segments of the black population is that it plays right into the hands of the schemes fostered by white racists after Reconstruction. Former slaves would spend their days trying to put food on the table, then crowd into shacks to try to get the rudiments of an education because they valued it and thought it would be the ticket to prosperity for them and their children. So adamant were white Southerners (mostly if not exclusively democrats, by the way) that the black man should remain perpetually a degraded underclass that black children caught carrying books would be beaten or killed, black schools would be burned, and black men who showed any outward sign of education and success would be lynched or worse. If I recall correctly, my own state of North Carolina actually shut down the public schools across the state for a time during the early years of Jim Crow rather than see black children in them.
The fact that so many of their posterity are sneering at the educational opportunities that the freedmen struggled and – in many cases – died for seems like such an insult to their memory.
The particular problem that I deal with in the schools is that African-American students use the race card as their end-all to avoid trouble. They know that it will get most white teachers to stand down and paralyzes school district administrators because they too do not want to be labeled as racist.
I use this example as a microcasm of what others might see to be the problem. “Racist” is a term that is used very loosely in our country, often times to brand people with an opposing viewpoint. The word/label is so polarizing that I believe it gets in the way of constructive dialogue and the ability to heal and move forward as Americans.
I do not deny that racism exists. I know it exists. I cannot pretend to be in the shoes of African-Americans either. But I can say from my own experiences that irregardless of what I say or do, far too often am I labeled a “racist” if the outcome desired by a person of different background is not met by me or another white.
Stereotyping goes both ways. For a long time that stereotype has unfairly harmed many people of diverse backgrounds. And even though people of my background perpetuated an awful tragedy upon African-Americans, the continued slinging of “racist” often prevents myself and others from talking with African-Americans in any quality manner. Who wants to enter into honest dialogue and get burned? Both sides have a lot to learn from each other. And in today’s society, we need each other to make this country go where it needs to go.
We cannot continue to snipe at each other and expect one side or the other to back down. In the end we all lose.
W. E. B. Du Bois was writing about the same things in Philadelphia, circa 1900. I don’t get the attitude that says academic (or any other serious) acheivement is somehow “white”. I guess that is what happens when folks don’t truly know their history.
The DMV offers equal opportunity harassment. You’re equally likely (99.99% chance) to be harassed as a customer at any DMV in any state in our nation, regardless of the race, sex, or age of the person “serving” you at the counter. We’ve had the unfortunate experience of visiting DMVs in 6 different states throughout our moves. Usually, once you get through the initial harassment, you can renew your plates by mail, bypassing most of the customer harassment in the future. Unfortunately, we get to that point and it’s almost time to move to a new state, which requires us to show up in person at a new DMV to be harassed.
DMV = Rude Clerks
Hello, I did a trackback to this message on my blog.
Thanks for keeping me thinking!
Monika Brooks
Oakland, CA
That’s very interesting stuff there. I’ve been doing some volunteering in SouthEast DC lately, and I could tell you some interesting stories.
The first time I got there, a beautiful woman named Naomi showed me around and gave me the basics on the streets and the organizations out there trying to help out. She also described poverty to me. She said that there were two kinds of poverty: situational- Something happens that puts a family into poverty, not necessarily of their own making. (ie- the primary money earner in the family dies or looses their job or is seriously injured and can no longer work- therefor the family is thrown into poverty.) usually this type of family finds a way to get out of their poverty situation at some point in time.
the other type is Cultural- Their mother never worked, their father never worked, their aunts, uncles, friends, etc, never worked- never held a legit job. These families/ people, literally, don’t know how to get or hold on to a job. Cultural poverty is the primary reason for the poor neighborhoods in SE DC.
Naomi told me a story to illustrate her point. About a year ago, she and a large group of volunteers decided to start a program for the people (primarily women) of the area. They went door to door and told every person who answered their door about the program. They were going to meet in the afternoons, and they would teach anyone who showed up how to get and hold a job. They would get people in touch with programs that would teach them skills, and then get them in touch with businesses looking for work. At every door they got a positive response. Yet the night of the first meeting- not one person showed up. (nor did anyone show up after further prodding and reminding.) Not one person even had a desire to find work- there are tons of reasons for this (welfare and charity programs with salary caps- etc) but the primary reason was that no-one they talked to saw any reason, nor did they have any desire to get a job. It was a completely foreign concept to them.
‘“I’ve never said nor even implied such a thing, but “racism†is so inconsequential to black people’s lives in 2005 as to be laughably negligible.â€
This is one point I must vehemently disagree with. I see it each and every day in various and sundry ways. Sometimes it’s the well-intentioned yet foolish remark of someone close to me. Sometimes it’s outright disgust at my presence where I “shouldn’t†be. It is a recognizable factor in the lives of Blacks and every other non-caucasian group in the United States. ‘
Sorry but this is just the childish trivialization of racism that obscures real problems. Everybody faces disapproval and everybody has to listen to foolish comments. The real problem is the societal and governmental tolerance of underclass behavior as long as it is kept at an acceptable level. This is directly the treatment of the proles from ‘1984′ and it will never change until both as a society and nation we look at a 68% out of wedlock birthrate and transgenerational poverty and recognize that as the problem and address it. How does anyone expect schools to improve when 75% of the kids are from single parent homes? How is the crime rate going to be changed when you’ve got generations of kids growing up with no guidance? It’s not going to be some governmental program that’s going to change this or some diversity awarenes program, it’s going to take a committment of society and gov’t to address the real problems that create transgenerational poverty.
Jack Tanner,
I’m a little puzzled by your comments. Are you suggesting that government is the solution, or at least part of it?
I don’t agree entirely with the comparison of the American “underclass” to the proles of “1984.” The government of Oceania basically ignored the proles. Our government hardly ignores the lower class, though I think that it does more harm than good with the various programs that are in place.
I think we’re all interested in solving the problem of transgenerational poverty (well, I don’t think the dems really are), though the devil’s in the details. What do you think are the causes of the problem, and what do you think ought to be done to fix it?
I’m sorry I left the wrong address:
http://www.xanga.com/MissMonika1
Have a Blessed Day!
M
#50 -
I would say the gov’t needs to take action by ending counterproductive social programs. In 1984 the gov’t tolerated drug addiction, promiscuity and criminality amongst the proles, they even promoted it.
# 52
Agreed.
I firmly agree with those who think the government needs to stop treating people as if they are incompetent and hopelessly oppressed. It’s insulting, it’s untrue, and it’s horribly counterproductive.
If a person is told often enough that he or she hasn’t a chance, that the deck is stacked, that “the system” won’t allow success, that person will eventually come to believe such nonsense. It’s a classic example of the self-fulfilling prophecy.
Every bit of effort must be directed at overcoming problems on the way to success, and no effort at all should be expended on non-productive and negative programs. Everyone knows what the problems are. Let’s focus on how to get past them.
I feel passionately about this. My two little cousins need to hear how bright their lives can be, not how bad they will be because of the color of their skins. That’s why I get rather exercised when I read posts by certain people which are always focused upon the negative. If these “negativity preachers” ever try passing that garbage on to my cousins, there will be trouble from me, I guarantee it. One kid wants to become a doctor, and one has his sights set upon a career in business, and I’m not going to let anyone push their hopes and dreams into the mud.
Ok, end of rant.
DS-
This is probably a couple days too late. I’m not sure how per-pupil spending in DC breaks down either, but part of the problem is that only 49.6% of the budget is devoted to classroom and operational costs. The remainder goes to support a bloated education bureacracy. DC ranks dead last in our nation in actual spending per pupil.
DC ranks dead last in our nation in actual spending per pupil.
Is there a source for this? If so, I’d like to know what it was.
http://www.firstclasseducation.org
They rank states based on per pupil spending. They calculate per pupil spending as the percentage of funding that actually goes to the classroom: teachers salaries, school operations, technology, textbooks, etc.
The organization’s goal is to require by law schools to spend 65 cents of every dollar in the classroom.
I hope this provides something to work with.
Inspector Callahan, a minor quibble if I may. “Black people in inner cities who have babies out of wedlock, or engage in criminal activity, CANNOT blame white people for their choices. NOTHING forced them to make these choices.”
Umm, didn’t you get the memo blaming Whitey for ginning up the festish culture? Yes indeed, there’s this vast bi-wing conspiracy that goes by the name of capitalism for the sole purpose of separating black money fom black owners.
For a price, they will sell you the assessories to pimp your lifestyle. For a rate, they will loan you money to stay ahead of the Joneses. For a high, they’ve unleashed crack. For some bling-bling, they promote the gangsta lifestyle. For a fee, the KlannedParenthood will help you abort a mistake. Of course it ain’t the black’s fault. It’s Whitey operating the levers behind the curtain of smoke-n-mirrors.
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