I’m sure we’d all agree that this murdering creep deserves a hot chair to sit in, wouldn’t we?
Update: I hadn’t heard from him in awhile, but my sometime-contrarian Christian friend, Richard Hall, comments and responds on his blog to this post. For a discussion about the death penalty from a Christian point of view, I encourage you to comment at Connexions.
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If I believed in it, yes. But I don’t because of systemic problems, so no.
No, we wouldn’t.
Where are the forgiveness experts to praise the girlfriend who let this guy move back in after he had been in prison for chasing kids with a live chain saw?
La Shawn:
The murder on Mother’s Day leads me to believe that the child’s misbehavior was not his prime motivation.
More likely, he wanted to punish his ex.
BTW For killing two children–I agree.
I am amazed that some Christians don’t support the death penalty. Read Romans 13. Paul is fairly clear in his diatribe on “evil doers”, they should “fear the sword bearer” of the government that was put into place by God.
It is not hypocrisy to be pro-life, yet support the use of capitol punnishment. It is perfectly reasonable and is supported by the Word.
If for a capital crime there were a separate standard of proof, that being beyond a shadow of a doubt (video, DNA, prints, & eye witnesses), I would be all for removing this person’s ability to draw breath. However, I can’t get past the slight possibility that we could make an irreversible mistake. So, no hot seat.
Nardo, you are correct. But with that same argument, we should release all prisoners serving a life sentence because some might be innocent? Humans make mistakes, yes, but that still doesn’t mean that God’s word is wrong about the death penalty. It just means that humans are capable of mistakes. Every effort should be made to be sure of guilt, but once guilt is determined, we should follow through.
Does anyone believe this may be a case were the accused didn’t do it, no. Would this change the mind of anyone against the death penalty to allow this double murderer of children to sit in the hot seat, no.
Why does anyone think their beliefs should determine the punishment for harm done to someone else’s family? Let those who have suffered the harm speak their belief t at the sentencing phase of the trial, and let it be done.
That is an interesting point Jim. But it is the Government that has been put in place by God, it is the Governments job to hand out justice and yes, retribution on the criminals. I am afraid of sentencing by victims. That would be a serious pandora’s box in my opinion.
Once convicted, this animal should be executed in the identical savage manner he committed the crime, the next day after his automatic appeal is turned down, period.
Not to stir up the pot, but…
Andrea Yates got life in prison – and she killed 5 of her kids. Note how the media – and society as a whole – treated that case vs. this one.
Question – are men and women equal, or not? Should Andrea Yates have fried if this guy will?
TV (Harry)
Why was he out of prison, given his dismal record as a violent thug?
Why am I asking, since I already know the answer?
Grrrrrrrrrrr
The man deserves the death penalty. There’s no ifs ands or buts here. The two children in all likelyhood 1) didn’t know it was coming (after all, it’s their father who loves them) and 2) couldn’t defend themselves if they figured out it was coming.
The man is a creep who has no place in society. And should be removed posthaste.
Dan
That anyone would waste one breath or second defending a double child murderer is fascinating. Talk about misplaced sympathy. He deserves his rights to a fair trial and if found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt he deserves a quick ticket to the damnation that awaits him.
How can a Christian support a law that ends a life, when it has been shown, across the board, to be haphazard and prone to error because the system, itself, is prone to error.
Sorry, I can’t get past that and have yet to have anyone justify it to me enough to give unqualified support for the d.p.
You haven’t seen the posts I’ve written about capital punishment? I guess you forgot. Because the system errs, it doesn’t render the system illegitimate. The principle is biblical; humans are fallible.
But LaShawn, remember it’s society that is at fault for ALL problems any one individual exhibits (exuding sarcasm here).
It’s not his fault he killed those two children….he has multi-indescretionary-involuntary-murderitis brought on by society not handing him everything on a silver platter, but expects him to work hard to get what he needs as well as wants…. (More sarcasm)
Anyone who thinks this idiot doesn’t deserve the death penalty is sorely lacking in the brains department in my book.
Dan
I went to the connexions site and read the Reverends take, I disagree.
If the death penalty is not valid, then how could Christ have been put to death, by men, for my sin? Thank God that this was allowed by God, or I would have to die in my sin.
You haven’t seen the posts I’ve written about capital punishment? I guess you forgot. Because the system errs, it doesn’t render the system illegitimate. The principle is biblical; humans are fallible.
Yes, I’ve seen your posts. No, they are not convincing.
Yes, we are fallible. But the system is fallible to the point where it cannot be overlooked.
Texas wants to execute someone who had a lawyer who fell asleep during the trial. Texas later prevented the lawyer from working on capital cases. But they still want to execute the person instead of a retrial.
That stance cannot be defended.
“Err on the side of life”…
Here’s my question: when the state puts an innocent person to death, who then bears the responsibility? Does that go under the category of ‘oh well, humans are fallible, after all?’
I agree w/ DarkStar, it works in principle, but in practice, there have been too many mistakes to be comfortable
Mr. East,
Life in prison for an innocent is indeed cruel. However, that is a problem that can be remedied if the person’s innocence is later established. If a person has been put to death and later found innocent there is no remedy for them.
La Shawn, having life in prison being the ultimate penalty is merely another system, just one that does not carry the downside of occasionally slaughtering an innocent. In other words, it is a better system. I am no goody two shoes. I would gleefully wipe out a lowlife creep who commits this sort of crime. Just not at the price of the periodic killing of an innocent.
Here’s my question: when the state puts an innocent person to death, who then bears the responsibility? Does that go under the category of ‘oh well, humans are fallible, after all?’
Some d.p. advocates say yes.
I can’t understand it.
Thanks for the link La Shawn – I haven’t commented in a while because I don’t enjoy being a contrarian *all* the time! (Really!)
Jeff — I don’t think I’ve ever heard the crucifixion of Jesus used as a defence of the death penalty before. I find that extraordinary. Surely we can agree that, in human terms at least, that execution was very deeply unjust? That’s the point, isn’t it?
The execution was unjust because Christ was innocent, Richard. In human terms, that is. That was the point. But because he took on the sins of those he came to save, his death was “just.” If he hadn’t done that for me, I’d still be under God’s wrath. – Admin
Quite so – but to use that as a defence of the death penalty is absurd, surely?
Agreed. But I think Jeff meant that God used the method of punishment that existed in Rome to carry out his will. So in that context, God used Roman execution for his own purposes.
Ditto Darkstar, Avery, and Nardo. I’m for the death penalty in theory, but not even one innocent life taken is worth applying it. Humans not only make honest mistakes; they’ve also been known to lie to get the desired results.
However, if a case can be proved beyond the shadow of a doubt-not just beyond reasonable doubt-then I have no problem with it.
There are two anti-dp arguments, it would seem.
1)the death penalty is wrong morally. Period. If this is true then it doesn’t matter what the person did or how dangerous s/he is. Putting him/her to death cannot be right.
2)the death penalty is acceptable (or even mandatory) morally, but in practice it is wrong because it is carried out unfairly (the innocent executed).
If you believe #1 to be the case, then it doesn’t matter if he is guilty at all, but the second case only seems to apply if there is any doubt. Does anyone have a doubt that the Accused is guilty? He freely admits to killing both girls and gives details. What is there to prove?
As for the question of morality of the dp in general, I think the argument for *Christians* who believe in it goes like this:
The government exists to mete out justice and restrain mankind’s sin.
To put to death a killer is just.
Therefore, the government has the right (responsibility, even?) to execute the guilty.
Does that mean all executions are just (that is, recalling the #2 argument, above, against the dp)? No, it doesn’t. But to toss the system seems to be a retention of the bathwater while we chuck the baby. Keep in mind there have already been two executions in this case. Two girls under ten. Must we now question whether the man who chose the death penalty for them actually deserves it himself?
FWIW, I don’t think it’s fair to call into question the “brains department” of those who are opposed to the death penalty. There are obviously intelligent people on both sides of the issue and deriding those who disagree is hardly likely to convince them to consider the alternate opinion.
“I am afraid of sentencing by victims.”
No Jeff. That would not be a good thing and not what I suggested. Judges determine life in prison or the death penalty for murderers by taking a jury’s recommendation and impact testimony from the family suffering the loss.
The family harmed, not what others believe about the validity of death as a punishment for murder in general(and that includes Judges BTW) is what should be done.
Oh, great input Jenney.
Ditto Darkstar, Avery, and Nardo. I’m for the death penalty in theory, but not even one innocent life taken is worth applying it. Humans not only make honest mistakes; they’ve also been known to lie to get the desired results.
Innocent by which standard? Innocent by God’s standard or by the court’s standard? Are we not ALL guilty by God’s standard? (Romans 3:23) Therefore, do we not ALL deserve death? (Romans 6:23) Can it honestly be said that anyone put to death did not deserve it according to God’s standard? (Barring Christ Jesus.)
But who ar you, O man, to answer back to God? (Romans 9:20) It seems that death is our just reward. Death is what we each deserve if God is just. To receive anything more than that is God’s mercy and grace.
#18, #23
Cite one case in the US where it has been proven after the fact that an innocent person received the death penalty.
Tangent:
None of this discussion about the death penalty would be needed, and two innocent little girls would still be alive, if this monster had been kept in prison where he belonged.
Peter, you’re scaring me.
Peter, so am I to understand your position as, ’since we’re all guilty vis a vis God’s judgement, then why should we even care whether the state kills an innocent person?’
Just wanted to clarify
#35, see Ultimate Punishment by Scott Turow.
I’ve blogged about this on my site.
As an Illinois myself-south of Chicago-I can tell you that the majority of those I’ve discussed this case with think this scum deserves the death penalty-and make sure he suffers.
However-in Ill-ANNOY-thanks to the indicted former governor-George “Lyin’” Ryan-there is a moritorium on the death penalty.
If Hobbs dies it will be because his prison mate didn’t take kindly to a double child killer-not because he got executed.
As for those who oppose capitol punishment-well my husband explains it best.
He-and I believe-that every citizen is party to an unspoken social contract. that cotract implies that you’ll live by the laws of decent society. If you break that contract then the state/ society has no obligation to honor said contract and in fact have responsibilty to make sure your victims are given justice.
Sometimes justice requires the ultimate penalty.
I believe that I would rather see one innocent be “wronged”-than see 100 gulity escape the punishment they deserve.
Oh-and though I also suffered from post-partum psychosis-I believe Yates should have been given the death penalty.
Those murdered little ones deserved justice.
The Apostle Paul was a murderer, motivated by hate-filled animus toward Christians. Was he any less of an animal? Was he any less a scumbag? And yet we view his writings as inspired by God and authority for Christian living. If justice demands the death penalty, then Paul is an imposter to the mantle of faith and falsely testifies to the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. Putting someone to death is our statement that their life cannot be redeemed. Yet the Bible says that the Kingdom begins in this life and doesn’t merely await heaven and Christ’s return. The death penalty proclaims that the Kingdom here and now is but an illusion, a grand hoax.
Jerry Hobbs can still be forgiven by God and can go to heaven-but the fact remains that the State of Illinois can still demand that he face the appropriate punishment for commiting murder.
They’re not mutually exclusive.
If Jerry Hobbs isn’t executed then it says a message that his life is considered to be more valuable than the lives of the little girls he murdered.
Not sure I get this reasoning:
“If justice demands the death penalty, then Paul is an imposter to the mantle of faith and falsely testifies to the redeeming work of Jesus Christ.”
Justice demanding the dp doesn’t seem to have anything to do with whether Paul was later able to have his life redeemed and become a person of faith.
“Putting someone to death is our statement that their life cannot be redeemed” may be your opinion, but I’ve never heart a dp advocate claim this, even in implication. Murderers can and sometimes do repent and they can and sometimes are forgiven. Their lives can be redeemed in a spiritual sense by Christ. That isn’t the point, though. The death penalty is punishment for crime. I would love to see killers repent and find forgiveness in Christ. But that doesn’t change the fact that they should be punished in this life by the State.
It isn’t a statement on whether they can be redeemed. It is a statement on whether what they have done deserves the highest punishment the law can give. For dp supporters, the answer is yes.
Jenney,
You believe that the Apostle Paul should have been executed instead of called to the ministry?
The problem I see with many conservative evenagelicals is that they seem to think that salvation is just about waiting to die so they can get to heaven. The new birth starts now, not with the electric chair or gas or lethal injection.
annoying litttle twerp,
If you want to know whether people value the life of Jerry Hobbs more than that of the little girls, ask the question. The answer is no, of course. The state of Illinois was not involved in the choice to take the girls’ lives. They are involved in choosing whether to take Hobbs’s life. If the choice before the state were whether to kill Hobbs and bring back the girls to life, the state would most certainly do it and demonstrate that the girls’ lives are indeed more valuable.
I hope you don’t mind if I excerpt Doug Giles, from my LEAVWORLD blog:
Sunday, May 01, 2005
WHY IT’S NOT HYPOCRITICAL FOR CHRISTIANS TO SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY
Doug Giles makes a compelling case for Christians to support the death penalty. Here are two relevant paragraphs:
“If I were the toad that took the life of the Lundsford or the Lunde girl, the right ‘Christian’ thing to do to show that I ‘love myself’ would be to confess to the crime, give myself up to the police, seek forgiveness from Almighty God (and beg it from all family members of my victim) and then ask to be deleted. I’m not part of the Kool-Aid drinkers who think ‘loving your enemy as one loves himself’ excludes punishing to death the perpetrator—whether it’s someone else or me.”
“If I did such a damnable act and really loved myself, then I would dutifully subject my person to punishment—in particular to death. Yes, if I really loved myself, I would bear responsibility for my actions, which means that I would insist on taking one for the team by leaving this planet, via execution, because I have just violently offended the sensibility of the entire human collective.”
AMEN.
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