Note: In the blogosphere, you have to be clear about everything. This post is not a rant against the FBI. I don’t believe the agent was biased or sought to aid and comfort the enemy with the report. I’m merely pointing out that he recorded a detainee’s Koran flushing claim; the agent himself wasn’t a witness.
————————————————————————————————————————————
Those liberal bloggers. They want a scandal, too, and they want it now! So they’ve pounced on the story about a 2002 FBI report that repeats the same Koran-flushing story as Newsweek.
Yesterday afternoon I saw the first story, and last night I saw two others. I thought an FBI agent actually witnessed the flushing. Contrary to what you may read on liberal blogs today (the buzz will be significant), the FBI agent did not. It was a disgruntled detainee who told the agent it happened. Michelle Malkin also noticed that important piece of information. Her post includes a copy of the FBI report. She writes:
It should be obvious to anyone who so much as glances at the documents being cited that the FBI was reporting the statements of detainees rather than endorsing or validating those allegations. Immediately before describing the Koran-in-the-toilet allegation, the FBI notes the detainee’s statement that “God tells Muslims to do a jihad against non-Muslims.” Does Kos expect us to believe the FBI is endorsing that statement too?Many detainees have made allegations of serious physical abuse as well as mistreatment of the Koran. Notwithstanding the MSM’s “flood the zone” coverage, that’s neither unexpected nor particularly newsworthy.
Are the detainees’ complaints valid? Maybe some are. But the FBI documents heralded by Kos and others as evidence of abuse actually show that a significant number of detainees’ complaints were either exaggerated or completely fabricated.
It’s common knowledge around here that conservative political bloggers are the ones who’ve gained prominence in the blogosphere covering media scandals. I attribute that to the left’s domination of media, which we conservatives have had to deal with for years. Study after study shows that mainstream media are teeming with leftists. Our charges of bias are simply more credible than liberal bloggers’. I also think that because conservatives dominate the top spots in the Ecosystem, we tend to have more influence in covering and exposing bias, and as reporters seek out bloggers to quote, they tend to select higher-ranking ones.
All that is a theory I haven’t tested or fleshed out, but since it’s now in a published blog entry, I’m certain irate liberal bloggers will take it and run with it. I expect to see excerpts of this entry all over the place, just like parts of my Newsweek post.
Besides leading the way on Rathergate, Easongate, and Newsweek, conservatives track media bias every day. Whole blogs are dedicated to nothing else. Except for the so-called Gannongate scandal, liberal political bloggers are usually relegated to defending rags that slander the military. As a matter of fact, rags defend rags. Check out this Washington Post story about the FBI report. Also read their media critic’s column (relevant part is closer toward the end).
Watch and listen today as the libs try to turn this FBI report, which merely repeats Newsweek’s claim, into a “See, it’s true!” moment. Americans may or may not have flushed a Koran, but I’m certainly not taking a detainee’s word for it, especially one who also said this:
“God tells Muslims to do a jihad against non-Muslims.”
I also predict that liberal bloggers will dissect and obfuscate the meaning of “jihad” so as to render it harmless. They want a scandal, too, and they’re willing to suppress common sense to get it.
Update: Here’s a glimpse of what’s to come. More coverage at Memeorandum.
Update II: The Smoking Gun has posted a non-PDF copy of the Al Qaeda training manual. Read “Lesson Eighteen” on prisons and detention centers. The Department of Justice has the training manual in PDF on its web site.
Update III: Guantanamo Bay detainee retracts Koran-flushing accusation. Do you think this will deter liberal bloggers from their determination to invent a scandal? I wouldn’t hold your breath. (Hat tip: Michelle Malkin)
———————————————————————————————————————————–
Stinky Journalism: “The unsworn duty of a journalist is to ’seek truth and report it.’ Journalists are equally obligated to ‘expose unethical practices of [fellow] journalists in the news media.’”
INDC Journal: These are people picked up as enemy combatants in a war on terror, probably most of them radical Islamists. And the trumpeting of these claims by the MSM – with the implication that the news of suspected terrorists in prison making allegations is shocking, revelatory or necessarily true – well, that comes awful close to serving as a bullhorn for propaganda designed to inflame the divide between the West and Islam.”
The Hedgehog Report: “There is zero evidence presented in this article that it even took place, but because some detainee who, let’s face it, would have an axe to grind against the United States says so, that is enough for The Washington Post to plaster an above-the-fold headline on the front page.”
Andi’s World, JustOneMinute, Power Line, Wizbang, The Moderate Voice, BuzzMachine, Indepundit, RedState…
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I saw that news flash from Reuters when it was about an hour old on Google and thought, oh boy, they just can’t let go of the story. Kinda like chimps who get caught cause they can’t let go of a piece of fruit in a jar.
When DOD keeps saying that any stories about flushing is simply not credible, what could they mean by that?
1) Porta-Johns don’t flush
2) Asian style Hole-in-Floors don’t flush
3) The koran would have to be as small or smaller than a pack of cigarettes to be flushed. Even then, I doubt that could happen in this day and age of Lo-Water toilets. Given what I recall of the Gitmo setup, sitting on a porcellan throne is a “luxury” not offered to the prisioner population at large.
4) Finally, prisoners have ripped out pages to try and clog the toilets — if some pages are enough to do that, how in the name of science would a complete book ever make the journey?
I’d like someone to enlighten me on the reality of the story in general.
La Shawn and Andy
I don’t remember where the source is and I don’t have the time to day to research it, but several months back there was a report of the “playbooks” of both the jihadis and the DNC, which were remarkably similar. The jihadis were instructed to claim prisoner abuse when captured and to claim all manner of wrongdoings by the captors. The DNC instructed voters to calim voter abuse and disenfranchisement.
Andy.
The reality of the story is that we are at war. The people we are fighting are “the enemy.” To report their propaganda without evidence while ignoring OUR side is treason. If you want to sell magazines overseas you will find out that sales will quadruple if your editors hate America and capitalsm. Ever watch CNN International? It’s the same old story. America is bad- but I’ll lie, cheat and steal to move there!
Maybe I’m misreading your comment. Some points seem ambiguous. If so please disregard.
Pat’sRick, yeah I think CaptiansQuarters covered that once a while back. Not too hard to figure out the web of intrique here. ACLU, CAIR and other anti-americans are in bed with the MSM/DNC, so naturally they would share and learn from each other tactics.
I think Osama bin Dead’s pre-election video urging support for sKerry is one such example. Lucky for us, the MSM/DNC don’t have some eviiiiil genius like Rove to help them with their stra-te-ger-ry
But we’ve known of detainee complaints of Koran desecration for a while now. Which is why its funny that eveyone blames newsweek: this info was already out there.
What I thought was curious was how when the story came out, the pentagon gave us its detailed policy on handling the Koran but no explanation on just how they ended up with such a detailed policy.
Pajamazon, sorry, I was being too facetious.
I mean come on, how does one flush a book in a regular tolilet? How does one flush a book in a portajohn or squat hole?
Does anyone really believe that we went into Gitmo and installed scores of flush toilets, when the rest of the “prison” was built for a temporary use, ie plywood shelters etc?
The MSM/DNC prides themselves on being reality-based, so where’s the logic in propagating this neo-urban legend?
It lies in the fact that most Moslems have never seen a porcellan throne up close, let alone sit on one. For them the imagination runs wild. I wouldn’t be surprised if some believe that there’s a sludge monster at the other end of the pipeworks waiting to eat anything that gets flushed (Not too inconceiveable for anyone that’s seen the Flintstones).
Ah, the things we take for granted that boggles the 3rd world mind.
Actus, that’s easy, for as long as we’ve had relationships with the ME, a lot of policies were developed and refined over the years. Since the DOD didn’t have a policy specifically stating that one must not flush a koran, it’s safe to assume it never happened.
Ask anyone that worked in the ME, particularily Saudi since the 60s. Islam sensitivities are not to be slighted and Christians are expected to leave their religion at the border.
You’re post here, as well some as the others you link, are either ill-informed or disengenous. But, I suspect you all know that.
The original Newsweek story claimed that the alleged incident was in a DOD report. They never claimed the incident happened. There’s a difference.
Well, it turns out now that the alleged incident IS in a FBI report.
“They never claimed the incident happened. There’s a difference.”
The self correcting blogosphere is not about comprehension.
It seems I’m on your radar now, Roxanne, and I have yet to determine whether that’s good or bad.
I think you’re confusing me with someone else, because I never claimed that Newsweek said the flushing in fact happened. My beef was the mere reporting of the claim whether true or not. Look, I know you don’t like conservatives, but don’t take out your frustration against them on my blog. It’s extremely irritating. If you have a problem with conservative bloggers, go tell the conservative bloggers.
That the alleged incident IS in the FBI report still doesn’t address the detainees’ credibility in making the accusation, but I suspect you know that.
I don’t care whether it’s true or not; I stand by my assertion that Newsweek should not have reported it.
Thanks Andy! Maybe I’m a bit thick sometimes.
“Detainee complaints.” …… OK Lets just kill ‘em. I’d like to hear the complaints from the other side, but they DON’T HAVE THEIR HEADS! The MSM have gone from willing dupe to willing accomplice. They don’t get it. We’re not “The Cop” anymore. We’re the warrior. You don’t want to wear a uniform? You want to blow up women and children? Fine. We owe you nothing. No rules of civility. If we lack the courage to play dirty with these devils we have already lost.
Koran flushed down the toilet…..Yes, that’s MUCH more reprehensible than cutting off some innocent persons head….
Liberals need an ……(put in the word here that Jack Nicholson used in the First Batman movie when he said “This town needs an”…..)….
First of all, it’s ludicrous to even worry about them (the islamist extremists), second of all, they’ve done that and Worse to the bible, but you don’t see libs up in arms about that, because after all, they’re only doing it to those darn Christians…and last but certainly not least. The word lives in the body, not the book.
The book isn’t God. It’s his word that lives in each individual. *shrug*
Libs…get a life.
You know something, Dan? I don’t know who’s the bigger fool: the liberal who strikes out against his own country at every opportunity, providing fodder for the enemy’s propaganda, or ME for blogging about the garbage in the first place.
I don’t have a problem with all conservatives. There are a great many I respect.
La Shawn:
Scrapple Face has a great comment on Koran flushing.
He says that any toilet strong enough to flush a Koran would be dangerous for prisoners to sit on.
Liberals trust an unnamed detainee making a complaint as a source in order to smear the right.
Can you believe this madness??? – Admin
“Liberals trust an unnamed detainee making a complaint as a source in order to smear the right.”
Shafiq Rasul is not unnamed. He’s also not a terrorist.
For a copy of AQ’s training manual, see
http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/trainingmanual.htm
The manual was located by the Manchester (England) Metropolitan Police during a search of an Al Qaeda member’s home. The manual was found in a computer file described as “the military series” related to the “Declaration of Jihad.” The manual was translated into English and was introduced earlier this year at the embassy bombing trial in New York. The Department is only providing the following selected text from the manual because it does not want to aid in educating terrorists or encourage further acts of terrorism.
Another example:
http://www.disastercenter.com/terror/Al_Qaeda_Manual_Eighteen_LESSON.htm
Lesson Eighteen
PRISONS AND DETENTION CENTERS
IF AN INDICTMENT IS ISSUED AND THE TRIAL, BEGINS, THE BROTHER HAS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING:
1 . At the beginning of the trial, once more the brothers must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by State Security [investigators ]before the judge.
2. Complain [to the court] of mistreatment while in prison.
3. Make arrangements for the brother ’s defense with the attorney, whether he was retained by the brother ’s family or court-appointed.
4. The brother has to do his best to know the names of the state security officers, who participated in his torture and mention their names to the judge.[These names may be obtained from brothers who had to deal with those officers in previous cases.]
There’s more…
I would like to see every single blog covering this story to physically post the section of the Al Qaeda manual that directs its members to intentionally lie and spread false information about supposed abuse in order to turn the “uninformed” against the enemy (which is the Great Satan). I’ve only run across one bolg that’s done it so far. I honestly think that we need to ram this section of the manual down the MSM’s throat until they are forced to acknowledge it.
I like the Moderate Voice’s summary:
1) There were allegations elsewhere about the Koran being flushed down the toilet.
2) No evidence has surfaced yet to prove that it happened. You can argue “it can’t be proven because they’re covering it up” but where is the proof of that? It could simply be that it’s an accusation. OR someone said something they heard. OR someone passed along something a guard told them had happened but didn’t (or did but they didn’t see it).
3) Newsweek still did not follow proper confirmation procedures. A corporate bigwig recently announced that the magazine would tighten up the use of anonymous sources. Why? Because the Periscope item was not rock-solid in confirmation.
Roxanne wrote, “The original Newsweek story claimed that the alleged incident was in a DOD report. They never claimed the incident happened.”
Incorrect. Go back and do your homework. We’ll wait.
“I would like to see every single blog covering this story to physically post the section of the Al Qaeda manual that directs its members to intentionally lie and spread false information about supposed abuse in order to turn the “uninformed†against the enemy (which is the Great Satan)”
What if the allegations are not by an al-qaeda member?
Exactly, La Shawn. It’s the detainee who made the charge, which he did not corroborate at a later date. So, it was probably a lie. There was also a report of the detainees putting the Koran down the toilet to make other detainees think it was the guards and to start a riot. That didn’t work, and neither will this.
Nevermind Roxanne, I won’t wait.
Here is a May 23rd text from Newsweek:
May 23 issue – Did a report in NEWSWEEK set off a wave of deadly anti-American riots in Afghanistan? That’s what numerous news accounts suggested last week as angry Afghans took to the streets to protest reports, linked to us, that U.S. interrogators had desecrated the Qur’an while interrogating Muslim terror suspects. We were as alarmed as anyone to hear of the violence, which left at least 15 Afghans dead and scores injured. But I think it’s important for the public to know exactly what we reported, why, and how subsequent events unfolded.
Two weeks ago, in our issue dated May 9, Michael Isikoff and John Barry reported in a brief item in our periscope section that U.S. military investigators had found evidence that American guards at the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had committed infractions in trying to get terror suspects to talk, including in one case flushing a Qur’an down a toilet. Their information came from a knowledgeable U.S. government source, and before deciding whether to publish it we approached two separate Defense Department officials for comment. One declined to give us a response; the other challenged another aspect of the story but did not dispute the Qur’an charge.
Although other major news organizations had aired charges of Qur’an desecration based only on the testimony of detainees, we believed our story was newsworthy because a U.S. official said government investigators turned up this evidence. So we published the item. After several days, newspapers in Pakistan and Afghan-istan began running accounts of our story. At that point, as Evan Thomas, Ron Moreau and Sami Yousafzai report this week, the riots started and spread across the country, fanned by extremists and unhappiness over the economy.
Last Friday, a top Pentagon spokesman told us that a review of the probe cited in our story showed that it was never meant to look into charges of Qur’an desecration. The spokesman also said the Pentagon had investigated other desecration charges by detainees and found them “not credible.” Our original source later said he couldn’t be certain about reading of the alleged Qur’an incident in the report we cited, and said it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts. Top administration officials have promised to continue looking into the charges, and so will we. But we regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst.
Roxanne wrote, “I don’t have a problem with all conservatives. There are a great many I respect.”
I’ll bite. Here’s two questions:
1) Name a conservative that you don’t have a problem with and why you think that person is a conservative.
2) What (in your opinion) are some core beliefs of a conservative?
“Among the previously unreported cases, sources tell NEWSWEEK: interrogators, in an attempt to rattle suspects, flushed a Qur’an down a toilet and led a detainee around with a collar and dog leash.”
I believe that is the quote from the Periscope article.
[SIGH] Same tired modus operandi, over and over again, with lefties using whatever they can to tarnish their own country. Saying that such behavior is shameful does not go far enough to describe those demented souls who enjoy slamming their own country, but I’ll stop there to avoid the “bad words” filter on the board.
One thing interesting from the snippets from Michelle Malkin’s post was the following:
“When asked for examples when he had personally witnessed the mistreatment of the Koran, ___ could offer none. Instead, ___ referred to general examples of claimed abuse, wherein soldiers, who were non-believers, had touched the book when searching it.”
So, apparently, it’s considered abuse for a soldier to even touch the Koran. I wonder if Amnesty International included such abuse in their report?
#23 What if the allegations are not by an al-qaeda member?
What, you think that Al Qaeda, the Taliban and other terrorist groups don’t talk to each other?
UncleDave, Actus also doesn’t believe that AQ was operating in Iraq prior to D-Day, nor that any linkage whatsoever with Saddam ever existed.
I guess the Iraqis can’t be trusted no matter their statements to the contrary. Something about them being puppets of American hegemony, nevermind the millions of purple fingers that put the current administration in place.
Thank God the Baathists learned to document everything from their nazi mentors. Although I was worried back during the shock and awe and seeing tons of paper fluttering around after one of the document repositories was hit.
The situation as I see it is that the MSM is desperately trying to retain the specter of reliability and relevance to the vast population that is beginning to look at them more skeptically. Therefore, there appears almost a concerted effort to watch each other’s backs when it comes to what had been previously taken for granted, i.e., slandering the military, creating new words like extremeconservative, etc., and this is what happens when a major newsweekly gets caught, red-handed, in doing to what it had become accustomed and getting away with it. I mean can one really believe that all of the major newspapers would parrot the Reuters headline so completely without actually reading the text of the article? I am stunned at the incompetence, if it is really incompetence or something more deliberate. Anyone?
Be careful Andy, he’ll translate your statement to mean that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 like Kerry and the Democrats kept doing (without regards for the English Language).
Just needed to write this disclaimer that we all understand that the War on Terror is bigger than just getting Osama and the Taliban.
Roxanne, Please see #26
Baklava, heh 8). No doubt about it. He used to be careful about his spins, but last night was as sloppy as sloppy can be under LB’s Media Slander post. Why I think even a Jr. High dropout could have seen thru that one.
Hi Lashawn:
Thanks for staying on top of the latest Koran flap. My question from day one: How can you possibly flush a book down a toilet without causing all sorts of plumbing problems. An enterprising reporter would have questioned whether it could be done in the first place.
Now, throwing it in a toilet. That’s different. All reports I’ve read charged someone with ‘flushing.’ And I say it can’t be done.
UncleDave : “What, you think that Al Qaeda, the Taliban and other terrorist groups don’t talk to each other?”
What if they’re made by someone who is not a member of a terrorist group at all?
“Therefore, there appears almost a concerted effort to watch each other’s backs when it comes to what had been previously taken for granted”
There’s a concerted effort to jump on a bandwagon. Right now its Koran desecration. So people are reporting on that. Even though these allegations have been around long before newsweek.
“The unsworn duty of a journalist is to ’seek truth and report it.”
They should leave the “truth” to philosophers and mystics and just report FACTS.
#42 What if they’re made by someone who is not a member of a terrorist group at all?
So please identify, specifically, who is making those allegations that is not a terrorist, or affiliated with terrorists, or who supports terrorists, regradless of whether or not you personally define them as a member of a terrorist group? And don’t include any individual or organization that is merely reporting that allegations were made by detainees unless you wish to imply that these individuals or organizations are, affiliated with, or support terrorists (and, yes, I consider detainees to be terrorists).
“So please identify, specifically, who is making those allegations that is not a terrorist,”
Shafiq Rasul. I posted it earlier.
Actus still wants to make something true that is only a complaint by a detainee and then:
1) logged by guards in the log book that this was a complaint by a detainee.
2) Recorded by the investigators that this was a complaint by a detainee.
My thinking is that our government should STOP doing the due diligence of even having logs for the guards and investigations into detainee complaints..
THEN THERE WOULD BE NO FUEL FOR ACTUS to use to inflame hatred against America.
That’s the rub Actus. I am perfectly willing and able to draw the conclusion (as I have time and again) that you are ANTI-AMERICAN.
There I said it. Don’t like it then give me other things to draw a different conclusion.
“THEN THERE WOULD BE NO FUEL FOR ACTUS to use to inflame hatred against America.”
I don’t know about fuel and inflaming, but there are allegations that exist outside of the records our government keeps.
“That’s the rub Actus. I am perfectly willing and able to draw the conclusion (as I have time and again) that you are ANTI-AMERICAN.”
Is it anti-american to repeat what the US government does?
#46 Shafiq Rasul. I posted it earlier.
http://www.answers.com/topic/shafiq-rasul
If this is the “Shafiq Rasul” you are talking about, you must be kidding me (or yourself).
“If this is the “Shafiq Rasul†you are talking about, you must be kidding me (or yourself). ”
Sure is. I’m assuming he’s not a terrorist because he was released.
Naw, man, Actus, he no keeding, he serious.
“Watch and listen today as the libs try to turn this FBI report, which merely repeats Newsweek’s claim, into a “See, it’s true!†moment”
so the FBI report repeats what newsweek says. So newsweek is as culpable as the fbi. ok.
OK, Let’s all get a grip on REALITY here. Not that I believe it, but SO WHAT if the story is true, and Korans were flushed, stepped on, burned, torn apart and used for toilet paper, etc., etc. Frankly, that doesn’t constitute TORTURE in any way shape or form whatsoever. It doesn’t violate any international agreements for the treatment of prisoners that I have ever heard of. If a Koran is desecrated, it is not physical mistreatment of a prisoner. Does anyone, EVEN you Actus, think that there would have been all this wailing and nashing of teeth on the part of the Left if the books in question were Bibles, or any other religious manuscript other than the Koran?
Actually, they might be concerned but only if the Bibles belonged to prisoners of the US Military in a time of war. The Left through some strange twist of mental magic seems to think that there is a moral equivalency between damaging an inanmate object and say…beheading an actual human being…slowly!
This type of thinking was prevalent during the Vietnam War when the Left was so concerned over the treatment of NVA and VC prisoners, yet unconcerned over the CONSTANT ONGOING HORRENDOUS PHYSICAL TORTURE of our people held as POW’s by North Vietnam.
The real reason that “Newsweek” shouldn’t have printed the story in the first place is because it is a NON-STORY. It was only good as fodder for maniacal, Infidel-hating, Islamic Clerics to use to whip up the ignorant masses into a destructive frenzy. It is distressing that our government should have a POLICY on handling the Koran. Do we have a similar policy for the Bible, or any other religious manuscript?
I’m sure that many of our POW’s from wars past who endured REAL TORTURE would have loved for their captors to take it out on the nearest Bible,
rather than on their broken bodies.
While the FBI was interviewing complaining detainees (why is that even happening?), this complaint should have been met with a yawn, followed by “OK, I got it, they were mean to a BOOK, but did they ever hurt YOU?… NO?… Get outta here!
Sorry for the rant La Shawn, but compared to the things I see people do to each other every day on the job, all this hoopla by the Left over the mistreatment of a Koran just really gets me going
Agree with Montie’s point.
Abu Ghraib? I’ve seen college fraternity razing that was worse.
What we do to these people is NOTHING compared to what they do to us and their own people.
Heck, I know of clubs in SF, NYC, Philly and DC where people pay to have worse done to them.
“Heck, I know of clubs in SF, NYC, Philly and DC where people pay to have worse done to them. ”
This is some real bad analogizing. For example, People have sex all the time. Don’t mean that its ok to have sex with anyone out there. This really is very simple. Sometimes I think people are trying not to get it.
I don’t get it either. Maybe it is because I am not the least bit invested in the Koran. I mean, I TRY to understand this whole PC thing (and this is a part of it) but I don’t.
Back in the good old days, when I was a Marine, GHWBush’s administration was worried about the Arab world seeing us as “crusaders” for our role in the liberation of Kuwait. I KNOW FOR A FACT that two Marine Fighter Attack Squadrons, VMFA-122 & VMFA-531, were held out of Kuwait (they would have been stationed in Bahrain) because of their insignia and nicknames. VMFA-122’s insignia was a cross in a shield and their nickname was “The Crusaders.” VMFA-531’s (now defunct) insignia was a skull with lightning bolts shooting out of its eyes and the nickname was “The Grey Ghosts”. They were kept out of the fight to spare Arab sensibilities.
In retrospect, that decision didn’t hurt the fight because the fight didn’t last long enough. But what if it had?
Now, I don’t doubt that some interrogators may have taken what is considered sacred to these zealot terrorists and treated it in way they would consider disrespectful. I don’t doubt that they have used whatever angle they could conjure up to get information. Considering what is at stake, I don’t blame them. But I have to agree with Montie (gasp!) that this doesn’t constitute true torture.
I’ll tell you what true torture is: ten days of being told to “stand by” because it was time to pack up to go to southwest Asia to fight a war, only to be told to stand down until tomorrow. THAT is torture!
Odd, actus, I never mentioned sex.
Actus,
My big complaint is that the MSM and all the other leftist and liberal outlets have pounded on the Abu Ghraib story over and over and over again. Yes, it was bad for American Soldiers to HUMILIATE the POW’s in the manner that they did. Note though the use of the term “humiliate”. That is what was done. It did not rise to the level of TORTURE. The military investigated, and is now prosecuting those involved, as we have always done. You will not see that from the other side in this conflict.
It is NOT the same thing as, and it is NOT morally equivalent to, the things being done every day by our enemies. I might add that we have never stooped to doing the things that have been done in many conflicts in the past to our prisoners by our enemies at the time.
While it is true that we hold ourselves to a higher standard (as witnessed by the fact that people are going to prison for HUMILATING POW’s), we need to get a grasp on reality without looking at it through PC glasses all the time.
One more thing. Just because a group of our soldiers got out of hand in the environment present in Iraq with a weak command and control system virtually out of touch with what was happening in Abu Ghraib, doesn’t mean that the same things have gone on in the tightly controlled and heavily supervised facility at GITMO.
Rafael!
What’s this? We are AGREEING on something! My day will be better from this point forward
SCSI, everyone knows that Actus is yeh high and a few bricks shy. But since no one here mentioned it, it must be true.
“Odd, actus, I never mentioned sex.”
Its an analogy similar to the one you’re using. the missing ingredient in both is consent.
“My big complaint is that the MSM and all the other leftist and liberal outlets have pounded on the Abu Ghraib story over and over and over again.”
All I see anymore is the prosecutions.
Another day, another MSM smear against the US military.
Rafael-
That’s got to be genuine torture.
Montie-
You hit the nail on the head. This is about moral equivalence. Those on the other side of the aisle place the detainees as equals to us, both in belief and action. However, if you look at the ideas and policies advocated by our opponents, it is easy to see that they cannot be equal. Our mistakes/errors are far outweighed by the evil actions that our opponents threaten us with and attempt to carry out daily. That does not make our mistakes/errors any less wrong. Rightfully so, wrong-doers are being punished. The key distinction, in my humble opinion, is this:
We value life, as in being alive, more highly than those following radical Islam. It is more sacred to us. We do not seek to destroy the Middle East nor the people that reside there. However, our enemies do seek to destroy us, our way of life, and our democratic processes. They revel in the taking of life, as long as it brings glory to their “cause.”
Their pursuit is not a noble cause, which is what Newsweek and other publications seek to transmit. That’s why they call these murderers “insurgents.” We all know them by their real names: cowardly terrorists.
These guys are a real threat. We may disagree on how the war on terror is prosecuted, but we are still at war. They will not rest until we are destroyed. Which is why we must eliminate them first.
” That’s why they call these murderers “insurgents.†We all know them by their real names: cowardly terrorists.”
Interestingly, their attacks dont’ get added to the US government statistics on terrorism.
you people cant see the trees thru the forest…
it’s really sad that stories like this seem to get immediately attacked as being “treason”…
deep down you all know this stuff happens all the time… as a matter of fact, you people dont even care if it’s true whatsoever… you think these methods are somehow justified and will contribute to us winning this war…
This alias is much better than the other one you use here. – Admin
Really? I always read his alias as gluteus chapeu, or something rather close…
Jimmy wrote, “deep down you all know this stuff happens all the time”
Just got up of the couch from watching “Lethal Weapon X” Don’t worry. Danny Glover loves you and will help you fight against America’s abuse towards the world.
I agree that some cannot see the forest for the trees. The current administration pretends to be conservative and moral. The president even pledges to veto a bill allowing embryonic stem cell research. The is a supposedly conservative majority in both house of Congress. What the left cannot get enacted as law through the elected process, the impose as law through the courts. The MSM arm of the DNC does their part to undermine the majority by printing any reminders of embarassing moments. They continue to trumpet the number of Americans killed, alleged prisoner abuses, confirmed prisoner abuses, etc. to cast the most unfavorable light possible on the administration. It’s all about returning the country to those glorious days when the Democrats were in control. Bring back the Clintons.
Geez actus. What do you call driving a car into a busy market or mosque and blowing it up?
Or how about, walking into a line of police recruits and then detonating yourself?
Just because the government doesn’t call it a terrorist act, doesn’t mean the perpetrators can’t be terrorists.
You can’t call the government statistics accurate anyhow. Lest we recall the upward revision on terrorism statistics by the CIA last year.
“Just because the government doesn’t call it a terrorist act, doesn’t mean the perpetrators can’t be terrorists”
I agree. Its still interesting why they don’t.
I noticed that the chief Muslim cleric in Saudi Arabia (of all places) complained about the reported flushing incident and called it a “crime.” This is the same Saudi Arabia that has an official policy to burn Bibles as contraband. Christians are supposed to respect the Muslim holy book, but the favor need not be returned apparently.
“This is the same Saudi Arabia that has an official policy to burn Bibles as contraband. ”
They’re not the same religion as you. thats a problem.
Actus, could you be a bigger *** right now?
The man made a simple point, that this cleric wants us to respect his holy book, which to most americans is just a book, while burning the book that more americans than any other find holy.
So you need to take the time to bash the man as intolerant.
I really don’t know if you are deficient in manners, mind or comprehension… the wise ass in the back of the class trying to rile peoople up for no reason but to get attention, or the slow kid that doesn’t realize what he’s saying. Or some kind of Brainy Smurf….
SCSI,
Smurf. [chortle]
Do liberals have a pigeon hole for blue folks, just like they do for segregating every other color?
“So you need to take the time to bash the man as intolerant.”
I think its pretty clear that the Saudi’s are the intolerant ones. Two people can be of a different religion but only one be a hater. Still leads to problems.
Back to the topic, which was Newsweek, other leftists, and the liberal media in general, accepting at face value assertions made by suspected terrorists caught, for the most part, in the act of plotting or attempting to kill Americans just because they are Americans:
Inside of every American penitentiary and correctional facility, including county jails, there are countless numbers of American prisoners accused of much less serious offenses than the least serious allegation against any terrorist detainee.
Virtually none of these American prisoners would be believed, and certainly not assumed to be credible enough to quote their unsubstantiated allegations against their respective wardens, jail guards, or interrogators in the Bufuville Gazette, let alone in Newsweek.
Does anyone else sense a disconnect or political divide here? Unbelieveable!
Good insight there, Merry. Not even the freshest young wet-behind-the-ears intern at Newsweek is senseless enough to actually give more credibility to our guests at Gitmo than to ordinary prisoners. There is a deliberate anti-Bush political agenda at work in the newsrooms of the dinosaur media. Nothing else computes.
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