When a nation prosecutes servicemen and women for mistakes made on the battlefield or for “torturing” prisoners of war by making them walk around with panties on their heads, this is what happens. U.S. soldiers take a beating in the liberal, anti-military, anti-America media.
Military Recruitment Down
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Or, they truly do not wish to be sent to a questionable conflict in which the real possibility exists that they return home in a bodybag.
La Shawn,
I’ve gotta disagree with you here. You actually think it’s because of the media’s alleged anti-military reporting that’s to blame for the poor recruitment numbers?
Could it possibly be that the threat of insurgents and other uncontrolled violence –as well as a military continually extended tours of duty– is what’s diminishing these numbers?
I love your honesty and all, but I can’t help to think that this is simply a bit of spin to explain the drop in numbers.
It seems to me that enlistment being down is more likely due to the militaries failure to abide by the agreements they made with those currently serving. Stop loss policies mean that lengths of service are a little more open-ended than most enlistees were led to believe when they signed on the dotted line.
Couple the above with the relatively new (for the volunteer military) risk of actually getting killed and it’s no wonder people aren’t lining up at the recruiting centers. A college education, a chance to save a few bucks and a shot at getting out of whatever current situation your in isn’t quite as attractive an option when there is a war going on. Those who believe in our policies overseas and genuinely want to serve their country will continue to enlist, those looking for a nine-to-five with killer benefits are going to take a pass.
The numbers are no big deal and I cannot recall when the numbers was celebrated. The truth is numbers are down but people are still joining for sure, until I here no one joined just maybe worry is justified. Thank God for those who do join and want to serve.
America survived the Sunshine Patriots of the Revolution, she will survive this. As the iron lady once said to the elder Bush, “don’t go wobbly on us George.”
He did – we can’t afford to.
Military Recruitment Down is down beacause no-one wants to go die for a questionable cause. If the American public really believed in this mission the same way they supposedly did when the military action was begun, you’d still have people happily enlisting in the same numbers they did right after 9/11.
I guess looking at things the way folks do on this site, you would blame the “Anti-War/Anti-military/Anti-American” media for that though.
> The numbers are no big deal and I cannot recall when the numbers was celebrated.
There is no need to celebrate or pay attention to the numbers during times of peace. Now that the US is essentially fighting a two-front war alone and may have to take possible military action in other regions in the future before these operations are complete, there is obvious concern about the fact that they won’t have enough soliders to do so.
Let’s all pray to God that no real wars come up that REALLY require our attention when we’re still fighting the last of the “dead-ender” insurgents (as Cheney and Rumsfeld described them) in Iraq two years later.
“When a nation prosecutes servicemen and women for mistakes made on the battlefield or for “torturing†prisoners of war by making them walk around with panties on their heads, this is what happens”
That’s got to be the reason.
Mark states:
Or, they truly do not wish to be sent to a questionable conflict in which the real possibility exists that they return home in a bodybag.
Guess what hero, 18 months in a combat zone. I made it home. My wife is over there now. She will be on leave next week. I go to bad neighborhoods all across DC and talk to the kids once a week. Do I worry about being put in the bodybag? Nope. Questionable this war may seem to some, is a valid excuse to do nothing but complain and sit on the sidelines only to get in once victory is in reach. Fill in the blanks… When the going gets tough____________
The recruiters have a tough job to do. Most of the recruiters I’ve came in contact with have never been deployed. It is hard for them to answer the tough questions from mainly potential recruits parents.
“Could it possibly be that the threat of insurgents and other uncontrolled violence –as well as a military continually extended tours of duty– is what’s diminishing these numbers?”
Think about that question for a moment. If this is true……… Lord please help us.
If the threat of Al-thugaa in the mean streets of urbanville USA don’t scare me, why should those islama-idiots in Iraq?
No one loathes war more than the soldier who has to fight it. Duty means everthing to us. Whether or not the American media or public support the war, really doesn’t matter. They are not fighting it.
Freedom is not Free……….
LaShawn, there is a big drop in recruitment of young adults because their parents realize that their kids will die. The “kids” realize that they will go to fight vs. get money to attend for college.
People in the service, the reservists, want to get out because the tours are getting longer.
The reason you gave is way off base.
You are better than this.
OR could it be a bit of everything. Longer tours, actual wars, command not stepping up to the plate, MSM propaganda.
Like most things complicated, it’s not anyone thing.
LaShawn, amongst homeschoolers the military is in very high esteem. I have two sons 14 and 12 have a strong desire to join the military.
My son says he wants to be a Marine, when someone tried to discourage him by telling him their the first to die. He didn’t flinch at all. He said, “I can die sitting on the couch or die in service to God and my country. But if it’s my time to go it’s my time to go.”
Greater love hath no man than this than he is wiling to lay down his life for his friends.
You naysayers are missing the complete story, the Marines and Air Force are meeting their quotas. It is only the Army that’s struggling. Granted the Air Force isn’t in the thick of it, but the Marines are pulling their weight both in fighting and in casualities.
But then again, I think the biggest problem with the Army is Esprit De Corps or rather the perception that it isn’t all that it can be. Des, this is no knock on you, but I think you know where I’m coming from.
Even tho the Marines are being bloodied, you really don’t hear much about armor, or the lack thereof, nor the constant the sensationalism over ’shortcomings’ by the MSM over the Marines. On the other hand, the Army is taking a PR beating. That and the motivations for joining the AF/USMC is different from the Army.
In the long run, I think the Army of One PR campaign is succeeding, albeit in an unintended direction.
Oh yeah Demond, welcome back again.
Hoooah
The best thing about WordPress 1.5 is the previously approved commenting feature.
People who comment for the first time go straight to the moderation queue until I approve or delete the comment. Most of them don’t know that, assuming that when they post a troll comment, it will show up instantly. Comments filled with invective, laced with sarcasm and ad hominem, and reeking of boredom never see the light of day.
Isn’t technology grand? You’re using wordpress to power your business and your passion, yet keep away all dem negative vibes, all in one package
La Shawn I think you do have a point, the media does treat our soldiers like bad guys.
But this is a simple numbers game. I addressed it on my blog before.
http://tswe.blogspot.com/2005/05/military-recruitment-problem.html
But that doesn’t address the fundamental problem which is the military doesn’t pay enough. Imagine you are a patriotic postal worker and you want to fight. But you have a mortgage and a family. You can’t even consider enlisting because your family would lose its house because of the pay CUT. So basically the only people who can consider enlisting are people who don’t have any other responsibilities which is a very small age and education range. Even a kid out of college has college loans he wouldn’t be able to pay on a military salary.
This is one problem that is actually solvable with money. Pay more and you will get more people able to serve. We have no idea how many people are willing to serve, we just know that there are millions who can’t serve and meet their personal obligations.
Does it never occur to you jingoistic nuts that maybe many Americans have figured out (whether they admit it or not) that the Bush adminstration led this country into an unnecessary war and have bungled the operation so badly that it is clearly a losing cause?
America didn’t become great because its citizens were willing to blindly following bad leaders. This war has made terrorism into a worse problem that it was before. The Bush adminstration shows no sign of learning from its mistakes. Why should our youth risk their lives under this kind of leadership?
Woah, Demond. Nobody (certainly not I) was presuming to diminish your service.
If we stick to the issue, we do know that this conflict was started for reasons which later turned out to be false, for objectives which are ill-defined (something we conservatives have long been critical of the left for doing). That the possibility exists of being a K.I.A. should not be overlooked. Rule #1 in war: young men die.
Also, if you wish to frequent questionable neighborhoods, that’s your business.
What clinched it for me (in addition to my choosing college, and for my dislike of the military lifestyle) was that when I was of the age, it was the time when Michael New was embroiled in his difficulties for refusing to wear the U.N. colors.
To be sure, being a soldier is an eminently honorable thing. For me, in this day and age, being a henchman for the New World Order in the new, feminized military is an unacceptable option.
Mark people do die in war. People die in the rough streets of America. That is point that I am trying to make. Am I less safe in Bahgdad than I would be at home. If that is people sole purpose for not joining. I pity them then.
Mark I never implied that you were trying to diminish my service and frankly if you did I wouldn’t care.
you said:
“If we stick to the issue, we do know that this conflict was started for reasons which later turned out to be false, for objectives which are ill-defined (something we conservatives have long been critical of the left for doing).”
We know that now…….Had we not have gone to war would have known that all. Or would we had still gave those same false briefings about Saddam’s capabilities to the next Commander in Chief who would have came after Bush.
Think about it…..
Thanks Mark you good sport…
God Bless
Demond
Certainly the reasons are many, but the reaction of liberals and MSM apologists to LaShawn’s post is risible. After decades of working to keep recruiters off college campuses and out of high schools, along with the drumbeat of ‘tools, fools and criminals’ directed at those who serve, we now have the same types protesting that their efforts have had no effect.
Let me know when you want to have an honest conversation about this.
When the left whines about a LACK of negativity in the press about the war, they claim that it’s Bush/Rove controlling the media. It seems they can’t accept not having bad news in Iraq on a daily basis.
That’s a lot worse than La Shawn correctly pointing out the MSM reporting fake stories made up to demoralize people who support military action.
Demond – Thank you for your service. Your point about security of Baghdad vs just about any US city is well taken.
It seems to me that the lure of college, training for the future, bonuses, etc. the army has been using is a dead end. Reward is a poor motivator if the risks are great. I like the USMC approach, the few, the proud, and they are.
This generation, by and large, has not been taught anything about American history or American heroes including the founders. They know that Americans owned slaves and that the land was “stolen” from the people living here before Europeans came and from Mexico. They know nothing of the founding documents, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Federalist, nor anything of the other writings of generations of patriots. Is it any wonder, therefore, that they have no particular love for this nation.
To fill these major gaps in their education they are bombarded daily with MSM drivel as well as negative, if not downright anti-American, bias in the classroom. Given this, it is no surprise that they are not flocking to enlist.
I have asked the services to insure that the officers above the Mosque shooter and the Lieutenant Pantano case who allowed those men to be subjected to their trials must never again be given command over fighters.
In the case of the roadblock shooting, I have asked the President to stop appologizing.
Enlistment may be down, but re-enlistment is not. If there was a big drop in re-enlistments with low enlistment quota, then there would be cause for alarm. And the fact that the other branches (Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps), are not having a problem with enlistments indicates to me that it really doesn’t have anything to do with the war as much as Army Recruiters not being able to sell the Army to potential recruits.
Bottom line, if it was negative press, military prosecution, and/or the war, then recruitment would be down across the board as well as re-enlistments.
Ian,
The cause isn’t questionable. The resolve of people in this country is because it’s been whittled away by spineless politicians who want to make everyone happy BUT the citizens of the country they serve.
I personally believe if you don’t like this country protecting itself, maybe you should go live where you think we’re serving a ‘questionable war’ against a enemy which I feel you are giving aid and comfort to by protesting it.
ie, you’re treasonous.
My opinion. You can disagree all you like, but you’re not changing my opinion.
“I personally believe if you don’t like this country protecting itself, maybe you should go live where you think we’re serving a ‘questionable war’ against a enemy which I feel you are giving aid and comfort to by protesting it”
Sounds like you’re telling someone to go live in the good ole U.S.A.: Where some people think the war is questionable, and others think that is treason.
Jim,
Please, explain why many of the presidents strongest supporters are in uniform? And their families?
Ask them what they believe. Read Desmond’s posts here, or his own site, and maybe you’ll get a glimpse into their world.
My guess is, you don’t know any military families, and if you do and sput off in public like you just did hear, they just ignore you and let you sputter.
La Shawn,
Having spent 10 years in the Army (Infantry both before and after OCS), I have friends who are still serving. Based on comments I’ve heard from some of them in the last few months, you have hit the nail in the head as to one of the major factors in the recruiting shortfall.
While many of your more liberal readers have come on here and commented about nobody wanting to die for a questionable cause, etc., they are wrong. Sure there are always a few who will not join for fear of death or injury. There are a few who will not join for reasons of not wanting to get stuck on extended tours away from home and family (although this is not really much of a factor except for guard and reserve units).
Suprising as it may be to a lot of your liberal readers, there are more than enough gung-ho patriotic young people to fill the ranks of all the services (just look at the Marine Corps who exceeded their recruiting goals while seemingly bearing more than their share of casualties). The possibility of being killed or injured is not the big problem liberals consider it to be, because most young people have the “it won’t happen to me” mindset. The “questionable cause” line of thinking does not come into play because it is not shared by the majority of the young people who would be recruiting candidates in the first place. This was so even during the Vietnam War when all the service branches including the Army and Marines still had a number of volunteers signing up, on top of what they obtained by way of the draft.
The biggest factors are the highly publicized perceived persecution of service members for honest mistakes in the heat of combat, mistakes that recruit candidates can identify with. Also, the constant negative press about what’s going on over there is starting to affect morale, and many young people are in contact with friends and relatives who are serving at this time and telling them that the news coverage has it wrong.
The typical recruit wants to be thought of as a hero not something on the order of a criminal. The hype that the media and the left have pursued over alleged torture of books (?) and our consequent kid glove (literally) handling of prisoners and their BELONGINGS certainly has had an impact.
The media and the left in this country are still stuck in the midset of Vietnam, where they pulled off what amounted an off battlefield defeat of the United States military. For some reason they seem obsessed with trying to acheive that goal again, and if they are allowed to continue with the same intensity that they are currently exhibiting, they just might accomplish that goal.
A final factor is the continued low unemployment rate we are currently experiencing. Despite what the left would like us to believe, the economy is good and that always cuts into recruitment whether in peacetime or wartime.
One more comment about a “questionable ” war and I’m gonna PUKE! Do any of you girls question whether or not we are IN A WAR? …..For those of you who do…..You are TRAITORS!
For the rest of you that will concede that we ARE fighting a war but question the conflict as a whole I have a suggestion. Put the lives of our Military ahead of your personal feelings. They are risking death among many other horrors. You on the other hand risk……WHAT? So you don’t like the necessity of war in Iraq? You “don’t agree? “…. SO FREAKIN WHAT! YOU’RE NOT THE PRESIDENT! No one voted for you! But GWB won TWO national elections. He is our President. We are a Nation At War. Get behind us or lay down with the other girls but please stop this selfish whining!
I see the ladies of the MSM attacking Gitmo, Abu Ghrab and the like. What an easy target! We’re an open society! If someone really wants to impress me with their “journalism” they’ll do a story on our ENEMY”S treatment of prisoners! But that would require RISK! They actually HURT and KILL their prisoners! It’s so much safer and easier just to attack the US Military. We might put panties on your head but you’ll still have your head!
This is an example of BAD CHARACTER. For someone to go after the safe target as apposed to the dangerous one and yet blather on and on about their “courage!” It sickens me.
” For the rest of you that will concede that we ARE fighting a war but question the conflict as a whole I have a suggestion”
What about the people who question the idiots that invade a country without any plan for what to do once they take over it?
Sickandtired,
Don’t forget the campuses that try to keep the recruiting officers away, or place them in an out of the way place where they are hard to find.
I remember back in 91 when my school was administering the ASVAB… there was no advertising or announcement of it. The counselors only informed the known gung-hos, and the young men they felt were destined for prison, where military service was a better alternative.
But then, 3 out of 10 of the teachers were admitted draft dodgers themselves…
Some of ya’ll need to relax, relate and release..
I have also been reading stories of recruiters using “questionable” tactics to sign up recruits. My hometown paper, the Houston Chronicle, reported a few weeks ago about a recruit (whom I believe was being recruited by the Army) who was threatened with arrest by a recruiter if he didn’t show up the next day. It was captured on the young man’s answering machine. This and other incidents of over zealous recruiting led to the Army requiring recruiters to “stand down” for one day last month. From what I can recall, the young man was quite willing to sign up but after being repeatedly harassed and then being threatened with jail time, he chose not to go to the military.
This is horrible PR. I don’t know how big an impact this and similar incidents may have had but it’s being picked up apparently and I’m sure some parents aren’t liking what they are reading.
Actus. I’d say you fit in the catagory you quoted. I’d also say your views on warfare are girlish and acedemic. Our exit strategies in Japan, Germany, Yougosalvia were much more pre-planned. One chooses to fight out of necessity. Once that path has been chosen victory must be the goal. Every voice of whining complaint like yours is one for the enemy. And by calling the Military Leaders who conquered Saddam’s forces in three weeks Idiots you are showing your true sillyness.
If you truly stand by your jingoist rhetoric, then do something. In other words, if you “support our troops” then ENLIST.
“Once that path has been chosen victory must be the goal.”
Could you please remind me again what will constitute victory in Iraq? The war on terror?
Actus, please do us all a favor and stay away from the subject of the military. You are clueless.
“I’d also say your views on warfare are girlish and acedemic.”
It’s really known as the powell doctrine. I can see how in a situation like the second world war we can tolerate some sort of seat of your pants. Oh, and also, victory was far away, and planning for it can seem lax. But do you really think that as victory was approaching we didn’t have a plan for what we would do?
f.
One impotrant component of victory would be killing the terrorists that Islam has been pumping out since Jimmy Carter. It’s an ugly reality! They won’t be negotiated away. We can kill them in Iraq while we play OFFENSE in the war on terror. Or we can REACT to their attacks here in the USA. We did not create these maniacs- regardless of what Soros &Co. would have you believe. But we will provide the leadership required to kill as many as necessary!
I can’t blame spellcheck! It’s my fault.
“Actus, please do us all a favor and stay away from the subject of the military. You are clueless.”
I’ll be happy to stay on the subject of the civilian leaders.
LaShawn, it’s rather unlikely that evidence of U.S. forces torturing captives has anything to do with recruitment numbers. Rather, recent polling indicates strongly that the majority of Americans see no benefit in a continued prosecution of this war.
It would be quite different if we were engaged solely in Afghanistan and relentlessly pursuing Osama bin Laden and the remnants of the Taliban and al-Queda. No, the fact that we set ourselves as a big target for some of these people in Iraq does not constitute a logical prosecution – that’s only a byproduct.
But since you bring up the “panties-on-head” issue, let’s look at it. In the photo in question, a man has been stripped nude and manacled with handcuffs into a stress position, arms stetched at length, shoulder height. We don’t know his name, what crime he’s been charged with or why he is being punished in this fashion. From the corded ligaments in his upper torso, it is obvious that he is in extreme discomfort.
What we don’t know is how long he was restrained in this position. Hours? Days? But it looks like torture. And this is merely the least of our reported abuses of prisoners. The list of things we’ve done include waterboarding, the breaking of bones, lit cigarettes pushed into ears, and an awful lot more. The guardian.co.uk has reported on these matters extensively and objectively, as has the New York Review of Books.
What dissuades me from cheerleading for the Iraq war is the fact that, as others note, it’s causing far more harm to our interests than good to anyone. What few bright notes can be sifted from the effort pale against the overall impact of our loss of moral authority in the eyes of the world, and in the eyes of our own populace.
“One chooses to fight out of necessity.”
And which “necessity” was THIS fight started by?
Wow, I thought this would be a troll bait thread, but I had no idea. God bless you, LB, for having the fortitude. Though I wonder what the IP to alias ratio is… LOL
A good personal account of the harm caused by MSM is here:
http://dadmanly.blogspot.com/2005/06/grief-and-anger.html
I believe the Army’s recruiting problems are much simpler than most seem to think. People enlist in our country’s all volunteer force for two basic reasons: 1, money/self improvement/change of pace; 2: to be a warrior. The Army’s traditional recruiting strategy has focused on the first set of reasons, while the Marines have focused more on the second. The Marines view themselves as “riflemen first,” whatever their MOS is, second. I have never served in the Army, so I can’t comment on the general view of non-infantry soldiers view themselves, but based on recruiting advertisements and my experience with Army recruiters, being a warrior is not at the top of the list.
I suspect the Army’s shortfall is not among young men who want to shoulder a rifle and go toe to toe with insurgents in Falluja. They are probably loosing those who want some college money and don’t think the benefit is worth risking death or amputation. Or those who are looking for some adventure but think IEDs and mortar attacks are more adventure than they can handle.
If I had a child that was preparing to leave high school, I would discourage him/her from joining the military. I’m an ex-military man and I enjoyed it and learned a lot from the experience, but I wouldn’t want my child to be in harms way for this cause. I don’t believe in it and I don’t support it. I think many parents are looking at the reality of seeing their child shipped off to Iraq and are uncomfortable with it. The Reserves are having a hard time because of the numerous reports of family hardship after a loved one is shipped of for extended periods of time. The Reserves are being used in a way that was never intended. It is easy to support war if you don’t have to fight. But when you MUST ask yourself – are you willing to die for this – I can’t blame a young person if he decides to say no.
Powell Doctrine? Powell Doctrine?!? Powell Doctrine!!!? Please, Actus, pray tell how the Powell Doctrine is relevant today?
I can assure you what ever your answer will be, it is clueless, unless you intend to show that it’s not applicable.
Mike M. wrote, “You actually think it’s because of the media’s alleged anti-military reporting that’s to blame for the poor recruitment numbers?”
Can you believe it? She actually thinks and wrote it and I agree with her. Where do we get this perception????
A big part of the problem is the prosecutions of our military men in Fallujah who were second guessed after it was found that the Iraqi was unarmed or not-booby trapped. In a time of war you can’t be Monday morning quarterbacking and prosecuting our men for pulling the trigger. And the media’s coverage and portrayal of our military as terrorizing detainees is OVER THE TOP.
Darkstar wrote, “The reason you gave is way off base. You are better than this.”
You are too….
Darkstar,
Montie wrote in comment #29 “you have hit the nail in the head as to one of the major factors”
Are his sources better than that too? Are there reasons way off base also?
LaShawn,
The connection you make between lackluster military recruiting and the “liberal” media is tenuous at best and, at worst, a case of “finding the cause that helps your cause.”
So you don’t think that the prospect of being blown to pieces, or so badly wounded that they will never live a normal life, all for a lie, and not to protect this country, has nothing to do with it? How many of your relatives are you encouraging to sign up to relieve this problem?
“Please, Actus, pray tell how the Powell Doctrine is relevant today?”
One simple aspect of the powell doctrine was that we know how to get out when we go in. This goes under the “are the objectives clearly defined,” and “will we commit sufficient resources to win.”
Raven
Imagine a switch with two positions; Law Enforcement-and-War.
We are now at War. I don’t care what he’s been “charged with!” He is an enemy combatant of THE WORST KIND! No uniform, civillian targets, REAL TORTURE of Their prisoners! Can you guys EVER step out of the Cop/Lawyer mode and step into Warrior? I suggest 9/11 would never have happened if we had at least appeared ready and able to fight wars, instead of assuring the world that we would punish”rule-breakers” when caught.
I wish all you crybabies would point us to the Military force YOU would emmulate! Since ours is so evil and mean, please show us your example of the correct use of FORCE!
Actus
Andy was right. Your ignorance is showing.
“One simple aspect of the powell doctrine was that we know how to get out when we go in. This goes under the “are the objectives clearly defined,†and “will we commit sufficient resources to win.†”
The fact of the matter is that there isn’t an ‘exit strategy’ nor should there be. The goal here is to eliminate the insurgents, one by one if we have to and aid the Iraqis to train and govern themselves. Countries who go into conflict with a predetermined exit strategy are doomed to fail. The only exit strategy during World War II was to win the war. It is the same here if you have been actually listening to what the President says.
The objectives, notoriously skewed by those who want to kick and scream, were obvious. Remove Saddam. Put in its place a democratic government. We are doing that now, even with some missteps along the way. Our military leaders believe we have sufficient resources in country to win. Only the MSM and Ted Kennedy are screaming about “more troops.”
Enlistment numbers are down for the Army because their recruiters are doing a poor job. The Houston Chronicle article is the poster child example of why the numbers are down. Other branches recruitment numbers exceed what they are actually needing.
It doesn’t suprise me, or anyone else, Actus, that you would champion the cause of the State Department.
#31 Actus wrote, “What about the people who question the idiots that invade a country without any plan for what to do once they take over it?”
Just because you didn’t read the “plan” doesn’t mean they were “without any plan”. You continue to stick to the liberal pattern of making UNTRUE accusation. Try researching.
“The only exit strategy during World War II was to win the war. ”
I know. We had plans to do that, and, as the end was approaching, plans for how to occupy the areas we conquered. That’s not really that abnormal.
Pajama:”Andy was right. Your ignorance is showing.”
I’d be delighted if you elaborated.
Tiffany wrote, “I have also been reading stories of recruiters using “questionable†tactics to sign up recruits. My hometown paper, the Houston Chronicle, reported a few weeks ago about a recruit (whom I believe was being recruited by the Army) who was threatened with arrest by a recruiter if he didn’t show up the next day.”
Sounds like the media we know at work !! Makes our point.
Actus wrote, “I’ll be happy to stay on the subject of the civilian leaders.”
With untrue accusations. Slander is your last name?
Fred wrote, “How many of your relatives are you encouraging to sign up to relieve this problem?”
How many of your relatives are you encouraging to be police and firefighters? Does that mean you are for anarchy and no law and order? Your way of debating and personalizing doesn’t make your point it actually hurts your argument.
#59 Actus wrote, “I know. We had plans to do that, and, as the end was approaching, plans for how to occupy the areas we conquered. That’s not really that abnormal.”
Actus, please tell everyone here (since you act like you know) how long Germany and Japan was each “OCCUPIED” and how many U.S. servicemen died while “OCCUPYING” Germany and Japan. And please make the UNTRUE accusation once again that the U.S. doesn’t have a plan (this shows your lack of reading comprehension)
Actus, the Powell Doctrine had nothing to do with an exit strategy. Try again. You’re the one that brought PD into the discussion, the onus is on you to elaborate.
“Actus, please tell everyone here (since you act like you know) how long Germany and Japan was each “OCCUPIED†and how many U.S. servicemen died while “OCCUPYING†Germany and Japan.”
I don’t know when we handed over authority, I don’t know when mccarthur stopped running japan. I don’t know where you’re going with this question.
“And please make the UNTRUE accusation once again that the U.S. doesn’t have a plan”
We may have a plan now, but we didn’t really have much of one when were invading. Is this really news to you?
Baklava,
Reggardless of one’s thoughts on the media and their percieved “liberal” bias, the fact of the matter is that young folks should join the military of their own volition and using scare tactics looks bad on the part of the Army and the notion of a volunteer military. Joining is a big decision and one that needs to be thought about carefully. Because one recruiter was overzealous, they lost a recruit who seemed to want to commit to service.
If a conservative blogger or news source had reported this information, would you feel differently?
I’m not trying to bait an argument, I’m just curious.
Actus; “I know. We had plans to do that, and, as the end was approaching, plans for how to occupy the areas we conquered. That’s not really that abnormal.”
Again your ignorance is showing on multiple levels. Do yourself a favor and shut up while you’re ahead. Bottomline, plans are just projections on a piece of paper, a living document that changes day by day or even minute by minute, such that when it’s said and done, it looks nothing like the original concept.
If you want to look at history as a reference, then we can take comfort in the fact that war is always at it’s bloodiest/deadliest climax just before the end. So if you believe that we’re now at our bloodiest phase, then the end is just around the corner.
Tell you what, go take a look at
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/06/by-other-means.html
To answer for Actus, we were in some occupation role for over 10 years in each country after World War II, in which many of our pre-determined strategies failed and had to be necessarily altered.
The point is that everyone is looking for a quick exit, when regime change, nation building and democracy can take far longer. Our “enlightened” culture has such a short-attention span that it dooms many of our endeavors to fail because, yawn, we as a people can’t stay awake long enought to see anything through.
“Bottomline, plans are just projections on a piece of paper, a living document that changes day by day or even minute by minute, such that when it’s said and done, it looks nothing like the original concept.”
Sure, but we still think about what is goign to happen and how were are going to accomplish things. Would really advocate that, say, in the ‘91 war we just went ahead and started shooting, without the plan to have a long air war followed by the “left hook” that encircled kuwait?
“The point is that everyone is looking for a quick exit, when regime change, nation building and democracy can take far longer. ”
I agree. the thing is that even within this admin, back in march 03, there were people who thought a quick exit was possible. These are the ones that didn’t plan.
Tiffany,
I first heard this recruiting thing about a month ago. The thing people have to realize is that like any organization, the Army is not monolithic. People do things for different reason, some selfish, some in the cause of the mission. I recall a recruiting scandal in the AF way back in the late 80’s. I guess one way of looking at this is to recall the chaos theory, where a storm is caused by a butterfly. Sometimes something small is of no consequence, other times it can have devasting impact depending on the chain of events.
Remember that the DOD was already on top of Abu Ghraib months before it blew up. In fact, I still have a copy of the DOD press briefing that covered this issue but was ignored by the MSM. It was only when pictures landed in the MSM’s hands that it blew up months after the fact. Imagine what may have been if those pictures had never been released?
Now as for the recruiting issue, there are several contributing factors, all of which were covered one way or another by others. In and of themselves, none of them were serious, but added together – boom. Sort of like accidents and the investigation of it. Any accident is nothing but a series of events, mitigate one or two events and the accident probably wouldn’t have happened.
Actus, you still haven’t addressed any of my points/ questions, instead grabbing at the next comment in order to sidle away from a straight answer.
Just keep crabbing
just keep crabbing…
Chris, actually we began ceding occupational control incrementally over the years, beginning 10 years after the war. During those initial 10 years, we had a lot of problems with insurgents, particularily in Germany, which continued thru the 80s. In fact, we did not reliquish full control of Germany until after the wall fell little over a decade ago. Until then, Berlin was under martial law and ultimate purview of the Supreme Allied Commander–IIRC usually a 3-4 star general.
During all that time, the rest of Germany remained sectioned off between the 4 powers and subject to the whims of the occupiers. What’s telling is that the trained eye can discern the effects on the people, landscape and economy that each power had over each of the zones. Obviously, the best off Germans lived in the American sectors, and the worst off lived in the Russian, however the French zone was pretty dismal (virtual slums) by US standards.
In a way, Japan was easier since the emperor was a god & if he surrenedered to the Americans, who were the loyal subjects to say otherwise.
#65 wrote, “I don’t know when we handed over authority, I don’t know when mccarthur stopped running japan. I don’t know where you’re going with this question.”
We know that you don’t know. You act like we don’t have a plan (because you didn’t read it) and you have displayed your lack of history knowledge. We were in Japan 7 years and Germany 10 years after WW2 was over and we lost over 10,000 U.S. men in Germany alone. I’d have to look up the reference for Japan.
Actus wrote, “We may have a plan now, but we didn’t really have much of one when were invading.
Another UNTRUE accusation. There was a plan and it was carried out pretty well. Since the invasion there have been a number of factors including the media egging on and enabling and giving confidence to insurgents and the left’s reiteration of the message that this or that is wrong or bad or we should pull out now (giving the country over to the terrorists – yeah that would be a smart plan).
“Actus, you still haven’t addressed any of my points/ questions, instead grabbing at the next comment in order to sidle away from a straight answer.”
What are the points you want addressed? That plans are useless? That since they’re ‘living documents’, we don’t need to have them?
“Just keep crabbing”
I totally liked your line about the moments at the end being the bloodiest. So, the worst that things get, the closer to over they are. A look at icasualties.org tells us that we are not in the bloodiest month. So does that mean we can expect much more?
#66 Tiffany,
Here’s my thoughts on that.
The left is using the inappropriate and illegal actions of a few recruiters to paint an inaccurate picture and using these stories to make their points (which are invalid). General Motors has some bad apples (every large organization does) as they employ almost a million people.
I watched a C-SPAN segment where the press grilled one of the top Army officers in charge of recruitment. Each one of the recruiters that were reported to have done anything wrong were being investigated. Each one of those investigated that were found to have committed wrong doing have been dealt consequences.
The non-story (individual doing wrong and then suffering the consequences due to the due diligence of the folks in charge) has been used as a way of making a non-point.
La Shawn’s points remain to me as the superior opinions about the reason as to the drop-off in recruitments.
Actus, start with the Powell Doctrine and explain how it would be relevant to today.
Actus: “I totally liked your line about the moments at the end being the bloodiest.”
And of course you didn’t look at my link. Tell me, what is icasualties.org’s point? Looking at their home page, the impressive charts are meaningless, akin to a blind judge looking at 8×10 glossies.
“Actus, start with the Powell Doctrine and explain how it would be relevant to today. ”
One way it would be relevant would be in its requirement to have clear objectives as well as the force required to win. With that, you woldn’t have entered a war without a good, well thought out plan — even if it changes — to win.
Back when fallujah was piping up, people advocated the use of overwhelming force, rather than proportional response, against it. The use of overwhelming force — once committed — is also part of the powell doctrine. But I don’t know how useful it has been, to the extent we’re using it to nation build, rather than the more clear objective of destroying an enemy.
“Tell me, what is icasualties.org’s point?”
One point could be to provide the data that your link used in its analysis.
“Looking at their home page, the impressive charts are meaningless, akin to a blind judge looking at 8×10 glossies.”
I don’t thikn its meaningless to look at monthly causalty rates. Specially when we’re talking about how things being bloodier are better. I don’t think we’re at the bloodiest month now. We’ve had worse.
Actus wrote, “One way it would be relevant would be in its requirement to have clear objectives as well as the force required to win.”
The military there do have objectives and are meeting them. And the force that is there is what is requested by the generals in the field. This accusation by John Kerry and other Democrats that we are ignoring generals and removing them from power if they say we need more troops was shown the be inaccurate by blogs like “Little Green Footballs”, “PowerlineBlog”, and “Hugh Hewitt’s Blog” and “Captains Quarters”. It’s one of those UNTRUE accusations by you again. Probably due to comprehension inabilities because the evidence that was presented on those blogs was overwhelming and convincing due to the timing and chronology of events.
Actus wrote, “Back when fallujah was piping up, people advocated the use of overwhelming force”.
Yes. Those were generally conservatives. Liberals were upset and tried to say we were committing atrocities. I’ll bet you if I looked up past posts from you at that time I’ll see which side you were on Actus.
Actus:”One way it would be relevant would be in its requirement to have clear objectives as well as the force required to win. With that, you woldn’t have entered a war without a good, well thought out plan — even if it changes — to win.
Sounds like you lifted, with a little tweaking, that right out of
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/military/force/article.html
See, I can use Google too.
In any case, wrong answer try again. Hint, try
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/iraq/powelldoctrine_short.html
“The military there do have objectives and are meeting them.”
That’s great.
“I’ll bet you if I looked up past posts from you at that time I’ll see which side you were on Actus”
Of course. I’m not wholeheartedly for the powell doctrine, because I know its costs, and think while it may work at defeating armies, it might not be so good at nation building. But dude wanted examples of its relevance, so i figured he might like that one, even if I don’t.
Actus: “I don’t thikn its meaningless to look at monthly causalty rates. Specially when we’re talking about how things being bloodier are better. I don’t think we’re at the bloodiest month now. We’ve had worse.”
That’s what you get for thinking about 1/3 of the picture. Talk about looking at a big tree in front of your face & not seeing the forest.
Step back a few feet, better yet bail out. You remain evermore clueless
“Step back a few feet, better yet bail out. You remain evermore clueless”
So if I step back more, I will see that things are actually really bad, and thus, they must be nearing an end? ok.
Baklava, recruiters are saying the #1 factor in going after young recruits are the parents.
For the first war, those in the reserves complained because they thought they would never have to go to war.
Yes, There is a large percentage of parents who are opposed to service/military and this administration. Enough percentage to make that a large factor. (Media factors into this making La Shawn’s point)
Though, when I joined the Navy in 1988, I did it without my parents input or ability to say anything because….. I was 18.
When a country’s leaders opt out of military service in wars they supposedly “support” because they have “other priorities” — or use special priviledge to avoid fighting in those wars — THIS is what happens.
If the elite in this country — those who enjoy the greatest benefit from and possess the greatest power in our system of government — don’t believe they have an obligation to risk their lives and fight, even when the fight is one they claim to believe in, why should anyone else?
Cheney, Bush, et al, can’t make an argument for duty and service to this younger generation — because they have demonstrated that don’t, personally, embrace such concepts themselves.
“Cheney, Bush, et al, can’t make an argument for duty and service to this younger generation — because they have demonstrated that don’t, personally, embrace such concepts themselves.”
Looks like someone has been drinking from the DanRather Kool-Aid.
Funny, I don’t remember a case of anyone being prosecuted for making someone wear panties in their head; I seem to recall more in the way of “death by beating” incidents… “violently raped/sodomized with broomstick” incidents… “chained to the ceiling in a position reminiscent of The Rack and deprived of food and sleep” incidents… but of course, we should still let those soldiers off the hook, because they are Americans and better than everyone else.
Tool.
# 88, ACS,
There was a huge report written that was sort of like a data dump. If you use reading comprehension you’d see that it was ALLEGATIONS by detainees that sodomization by broomsticks was going on. The general who wrote the report saw no evidence that these were things going on.
Same thing as the Koran being “alleged” to be flushed down the toilet. Turns out it was the detainee who was doing it. Reading comprehension is the theme of the day…
Nice. Now we’re even name calling!
“There was a huge report written that was sort of like a data dump.”
Tabuga report, I believe.
But I thikn the commenter has a point that the people facing disciplinary hearings are not facing them because of panties on heads.
Tiffany in Mpls – I have also been reading stories of recruiters using “questionable†tactics to sign up recruits…recruiters have always used “questionable tactics”. When I enlisted the CPO told me I could see Europe, Asia, anyplace I wanted to go (I spent all my time in the Pacific and Vietnam), get any kind of training for which I could qualify (I did), and regular promotions (got that too, but I was occasionally a bad boy and gave some of them back).
The armed forces have one purpose alone, defend the United States against all foes, not necessarily only those which sail onto our shores. If our educational system taught citizenship everyone would know that and would behave accordingly.
BTW, if you’re in Mpls (Minneapolis?) how can the Houston Chronicle be your hometown paper?
Taguba not Tabuga.
He doesn’t have a point if he’s falling prey to the allegations made by detainees that are NOT the reason for disciplinary actions.
Sick and Tired,
I am from Houston and I have lived in Minnesota for 2 years.
My body may be here and I pay taxes here but my heart will always be in Texas. I haven’t even bothered to change my drivers license.
I think the initial allegation regarding prosecution of servicemen is way off the mark. I work with enlistment age people and they are generally not aware of even the most basic facts regarding the Iraq War. I cannot imagine that enough young people would regard this issue as a concern to even register on the RADAR screen.
SCSIwuzzy,
“Please, explain why many of the presidents strongest supporters are in uniform?”
First, you say “many of”. Do you really know how many? Is it 90%? Is it 50%? How many profess support openly but privately now have reservations?
Second, I would bet that many of our soldiers were drawn in by the honorable concept of valour that is associated with defending their country, but forget that militarism is a means to accomplishing the end goals of freedom, liberty & justice. If one defends military action only because it is our miltiary doing the action, then one has stopped thinking about the real virtues we are striving for.
What is this war in Iraq that we are fighting? It keeps getting called the “War on Terrorism”. However, it has already been clearly established that there was no link between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. And now it is clearly the case that this war is creating “terrorists” (insurgents) faster than we are killing them. Along the way, we are killing innocent citizens, our own soldiers, stretching our military far too thin, and burning hundreds of billions of dollars that could have been spent much more effectively.
Those of you who are passionately defending this war and this administration should do some soul searching. Are you defending it because you really think that it is constructively making this world a safer place? Or do you have other, less noble reasons.
Let me make one thing totally clear: I believe strongly in the importance of strong military. I strongly respect anyone who volunteers to serve our country in the military. I fully acknowledge the debt that we civilans owe to the greatest generation, who defended us and our allies against a horrible oppressor.
However, this president and his administration has misled our country — both in poor judgement on how to wage the war on terror, and in lying to us in order to convince us to support them. The most patriotic thing we can do now is to hold them accountable for their poor leadership.
Inaccurate accusations don’t pursuade anyone Jim. We’ve already dissected this stuff in many earlier posts. Repeating it is useless.
“One more comment about a “questionable †war and I’m gonna PUKE! Do any of you girls question whether or not we are IN A WAR? …..For those of you who do…..You are TRAITORS!”
This is the saddest statement. You sir are an irrational war mongerer. You seem to have forgetten that war is only a means to an end.
This country is great because it was founded on the great principles of freedom and justice for all. We were not founded as a military state. If we continue down this path to blind support of mismangaged war policies, then we lose our greatness.
Let’s get back to the real goal of reducing and then eliminating acts of terror. If you think the goal is to kill muslims, then you’re being irrational, and you are contributing to terrorism by flaming their hate.
Baklava,
“Inaccurate accusations don’t pursuade anyone Jim. We’ve already dissected this stuff in many earlier posts. Repeating it is useless.”
No, all you’ve done is parrot the party line of those who refuse to accept responsibility for the mistakes that have been made.
What is more important to you? Saving face for George Bush’s failed policies, or making this world a safer place?
andy: “In any case, wrong answer try again. Hint, try”
Newshour? I sure will. But I don’t understand what the beef is. Are you saying that i have mischaracterized the powell doctrine? With its tests — borrowed from weinberger ?
Chris Roberts –
Cheney, Bush and other Republican leaders who as young men took a pass on fighting the war in Viet Nam (a war they “supported”) have been very open about doing so. You don’t have to take any newscaster’s word for where they were during that war, its on the record, and you can take their word for it.
And that’s my point. Conservative leaders of the Viet Nam generation have no shame about not serving in their generation’s war — a war they believed was right and necessary. Nor do their supporters think there is anything wrong with their avoidance of that war.
In other words, they (these leaders and their followers) do not believe that concepts like duty, honor, public service, etc., obligate them (or anyone) to risk their lives — even in a military cause that they fervently believe is in the nation’s vital interest.
If they don’t believe in those concepts, why should anyone else embrace them?
“When a nation prosecutes servicemen and women for mistakes made on the battlefield or for “torturing†prisoners of war by making them walk around with panties on their heads, this is what happens. U.S. soldiers take a beating in the liberal, anti-military, anti-America media.”
Wrong, sir, dead wrong. More correctly “When a nations leaders duck all responsibility for actions taken by their troops on their watch and selectively punish a few junior soldiers…” or “When a nations leaders feel that military service was ‘not a priority’ when it was their turn to serve….” “When a nation feels that cutting services to veterans in order to pay for tax cuts to the weathiest .1% of the population ….” These are the things that people and parents see when they begin to think they or their children should serve.
By their deeds and actions, sir, one can see what value our leaders place on the troops they send to fight their wars of choice and convenience. By our leaders deeds and actions, not by the words of some journalist or even of some military report.
And before I am flamed all over this comment area I’d lile to point out that I have served. I was in Kuwait before the war and through most of 2003. I have a brother who spent a year in Afganistan and a sister who is hoping her husband comes back from their (a good friend of his will not, killed right next to him this month – yes there are still casualties in Afganistan.) Two other brothers are on active duty and have not made it to the middle east but I am sure it is only a matter of time.
Finally, where in all this noise and nonesense is the CALL TO ENLIST. If this is truly the noble cause that most here espouse it to be then enlist! Or bring your children to the recruiter, or your grandchildren! By your actions and deeds support this war! Dulce Et Decorum Est, Pro Patria Mori (”It is sweet and proper to die in the service of one’s country.â€)
Or be quiet and go away …
As the British say of their dead.
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going-down of the sun, and in the morning.
We shall remember them.
esmense, please. Enough with the logic!!
Sir? I look like a sir? Time to update that photo, I guess.
You know what I find funny? Speaking in favor of the military used to be a good thing, whether the speaker or his children or grandchildren served or not. Now you can’t say one darn thing if you’ve NEVER served in the military. Strange. Some people choose to enlist; I chose not to. But that doesn’t mean I can’t EVER say anything positive or negative about the enlisted, and it certainly doesn’t mean I’m a hypocrite because I’ve never enlisted.
Each person can serve his country in different ways, and I admire the courage and commitment of those who serve it fighting the enemy on foreign soil.
Actus, you just can’t answer a simple question, can you? How is PD relevant to today? It’s ok to say you don’t know. But seeing how you brought it up, I’m asking why you thot it was on topic.
You showed me a big tree (your link), I took it and showed you the forest behind it (my link). Even then, you only scanned my forest, only to stop in front of your tree again. Just goes to show how intellectual you are.
Anyhoo, thankfully we don’t have you in charge since you haven’t learned the lesson of PD/history, you’d be doomed to fail. I’m afraid that the subject of military history/strategy is one area where you’ll never wise up to.
Now shoo.
esmense, are you a police officer?
Did ya’ll hear that in addition to the resolution to apologize for lynching, there’s another to condemn George Washington for being a miserable failure as a general?
Hear ye, hear ye,
Whereas, GW did wage war without an exit strategy.
Whereas, GW lied about the motivation of his landowner/rich friends when it really was all about land and natural resources and people died.
Whereas, GW was guilty of mistreating his POWs and they suffered indignities that was the holocaust and the gulags of his time.
Whereas, GW did not properly equip his soldiers before going to war, yea many did suffer frostbite, pneumonia and other ailments from a lack of proper warm clothing.
Whereas, GW caused many to bring their own weapons and protective equipment
Whereas, GW did heavily depend on reservists causing them to miss their family and the work that went untended in their absence.
Whereas, GW initiated a stop-loss to prevent his soldiers from returning home after they had served for an agreed upon length of service
Whereas, GW unnecessarily risked life and limb of his troops against a better equipped enemy.
We hereby apologize for the excesses and ineptness of GW.
Oh well, you get the drift, this country sure has a bunch of spoiled whiners who know not what they speak of, other than it feels bad.
Jim said What is more important to you? Saving face for George Bush’s failed policies, or making this world a safer place?
Well Jim, it is your opinion that Bush is a liar, incompetent, amoral and his policies a failure. Clearly, many hear don’t share your opinion, so don’t think we are saving face. We are making this world a better place in our view.
As for your questions about how I know the people in uniform, a majority among them, support Bush? A quick glance at the last 4 years of voting, and simply talking with my friends and family who are or were in service.
How about your assertions?
And yes, I see the typos. Blogging off a pda and stylus is cool, but sloppy
SCSI, still at work or commenting in class instead of taking notes
Andy,
My classes are all online, so no classroom antics.
Nope, I am sitting on my porch swing, petting the pitbull, having a cigar and a tumbler of Glennfiddich, using the PDA to wirelessly scan the blogosphere.
We’re waiting for the thunder storms to roll in, and relieve us of the heat.
“Actus, you just can’t answer a simple question, can you? How is PD relevant to today? ”
I told you some aspects of it that could have helped. Even some aspects of it that have been, to some extent, applied — ie, the overwhelming force in fallujah. That’s the relevance, the pertinence to the matter at hand.
“You showed me a big tree (your link), I took it and showed you the forest behind it (my link).”
I didn’t give you a link. You got in your head the idea that I went to that link. And then got in your head the idea that i should have gone to PBS newshour, without really knowing where I did go.
SCSIwuzzy: And how are you making the world a better place? I see posturing and assertions but the facts indicate otherwise. The situation in Iraq is deteroriating. Worldwide terrorism is on the increase. We have lost much of our ability to rally our former allies to our causes. How is this making the world a better place?
I will acknowledge that to a large degree the citizens of this great country have rallied to support the president and our troops these last four years. Let us hope that in the future we can also rally when there is a perceived need. My concern is that in this case, the president misled us by manipulating perceptions. He abused the trust of the people and led the county in the wrong direction. Many who initially trusted the president are seeing now how their trust has been betrayed. Will this make it even harder for a future president to rally us?
Sure, there is clearly a significant number of Americans who support this president and will continue to do so even as conditions continue to deteriorate. This loyal core will attempt to shift the blame away from the president’s policies and leadership, and will call people like myself traitorous for daring to speak against the president. My loyalty is to this country, its constitution, and the generous and noble people who have made it great, and I will continue to defend this country from corruption within.
A final note. I will grant that you have more friends & associates in active duty in the miltary, and that perhaps that gives you better anecdotal evidence for the degree of loyalty to this president from within the military. (And I am sure that neither of us doubts the complete and total loyalty that 100% of service men & women have for this county). But I think all of this is moot. Remember, they choose to *serve* and *defend* America and *all its citizens*. We are *not* a military state. At least, historically we have not been. Let us hope we never become one.
Jim,
Iraq is deteriotating? By what measure? Where are these facts that indicate otherwise?
A final note. I will grant that you have more friends & associates in active duty in the miltary, and that perhaps that gives you better anecdotal evidence for the degree of loyalty to this president from within the military. (And I am sure that neither of us doubts the complete and total loyalty that 100% of service men & women have for this county). But I think all of this is moot. Remember, they choose to *serve* and *defend* America and *all its citizens*. We are *not* a military state.
What does that even mean?!? You asked how I based my claim that many of the men and women in service support, who you imply only give lip service to. I answered you. This is why your side is loosing elections, Jimbo. You keep moving the goalposts and dodge the questions asked of you. How about taking on the vote numbers from 2000, 2002 and 2004? Where did active and reserve service members place their support?
Your rant on military states is a strawman at best, a paranoid ranting at worst.
Actus, PBS’s newshour wasn’t what I had in mind. What I had in mind was icasualties.org. In looking back at the various subthreads and crossovers, it’s obvious that I lost track of which points I was speaking to. My bad.
Anyway, back to PD.
Our plan for overwhelming and disproportionate force was as follows. Stage ground forces in Kuwait to come in from the South. Have a division sweep in from the North out of Turkey. From the SE and SW, naval forces lob cruise missles and the air forces to dominate the sky. Converge on Bagdad.
So do you recall what happened to throw a glitch in the plan? Does France & Turkey’s ever pending membership in EU mean anything to you?
The best laid plans and timing for fighting a force don’t mean a thing if there’s no force to face. Nevertheless, PD was met in the run up. By the time we reached Bagdad, what military there was had faded into the civillian population which changed the dynamics which required “seat of the pants” planning.
Speaking of exit strategy, I seem to recall something about 1 year, then 2, then 5 then indefinite in some locale in the SE of Europe. Seems to me that our exit strategy for Gulf War, Somalia and a few other places, not to mention WWII were last minute affairs as well. Haven’t seen one exit strategy that wasn’t by seat of the pants, let alone a war.
“Actus, PBS’s newshour wasn’t what I had in mind. What I had in mind was icasualties.org.”
And then you gave me a source that cited icasualties.org. Its just numbers. You were telling me about things being bloody, and I said: according to icasualties.org, they’ve been worse.
“eems to me that our exit strategy for Gulf War, Somalia and a few other places, not to mention WWII were last minute affairs as well.”
I thought gulf one was pretty clear that we were gonna kick saddam out of kuwait and that was the end. Somalia? I don’t know why Sr. went in. As for WWII, as things got close to needing a strategy we made one.
SCSI-
I prefer a 25 year McAllen myself. What about cigs? My mom smuggled back a Cohiba on a business trip south and it was sweet. Personally, I prefer La Parranaga or Macanudo.
I am supposing now that I can’t be in favor of the war since I myself didn’t enlist? How does that diminish my sense of honor, duty or patriotism? There are a myriad of ways to express such sentiments.
Regarding marching our friends and countrymen to enlist…I was a major factor in my wife’s enlistment. Most of us on here are proud of our military and would encourage anyone interested to join. Just because we aren’t a bunch of chest-thumping types doesn’t mean that we de facto discourage people from enlisting.
Next time I check in (in the morning), I’ll be sure to have my chest-waders on.
The situation in [insert noun here] is deteriorating.
The situation in the mass media is deteriorating. They are getting more and more hysterical as the days pass.
The situation in the Democrat party coffers is deteriorating. Howard Dean is raising much less money than James Carville did in the same job.
The situation in the state of CA is deteriorating. Border’s not under control and the expenditures exceed revenues by far (debt is growing).
The situation in Iraq is deteriorating. Or is it improving. Oh. wait a minute the reporter said deteriorating. OK. More electricity more reliably than when Saddam was in power? Hospitals are doing better than when Saddam was in power? Water is cleaner and more plentiful than when Saddam was in power? Less people are dying than when Saddam was in power (even with the suicide bombers – which constitute 42% Saudi Arabians and another large percentage is Syrians). Women can vote and learn. Why did that guy say deteriorating instead of improving?
Maybe I just need to listen to the mass media more often until I get it. I’m reading way toooo much.
So how many of you are actually going to do something about what you perceive as another problem created by the liberal media and serve in Iraq to eradicate it? Regardless of what you think the reason is, recruitment is down. You’re country needs you. Instead of blaming the liberal media, put your money where your mouth is and go serve this great nation of ours. I imagine there are a lot of individuals who would like to serve this country. But they are fearful fearful. People who served honorably in the military like Max Cleland and John McCain had their integrity, loyalty to the country, and sanity questioned. Pat Tillman’s parents were lied to, and the circumstances around his death were hidden to create a media situation where we could entice more recruits. And where was the anger over the fact that the 37 out of the 38 senators who opposed body armor funding for our troops were Republicans. Even conservative senators like Santorum and George Allen joined in bipartisan support to our troops, but not Senators like Elizabeth Dole, the lady in charge to elect more GOP senators in 2006. What does that say about the party? In 1970, Bush asked to be excused from his National Guard service to campaign for a Republican candidate in a race for Alabama senator? If a National Guardsmen today asked to be relieved of his duties in Iraq to campaign for an individual running for Congress, what do you think would happen to him?
Possibly libelous statement removed. – Admin
A little off the current track, but with assertations that the world is less safe now than before the War on Terror, these posts give a bit of timeline to terrorist attacks against the US military over the past few decades.
Liz Blair-remember, only the Army’s recruitment is down. Recruitment is being met or exceeded in the other branches AND Army retention (reenlistments) are up. Oh, and I did 8 years in the Air Force.
http://www.sgtstryker.com/index.php/archives/one-pct-pimentel-by-name/
http://www.sgtstryker.com/index.php/archives/pvt-pimentel-looking-over-my-shoulder-always/
“The situation in the mass media is deteriorating. They are getting more and more hysterical as the days pass.”
The daily show had great clips of the foxnews people losing it after the michael jackson verdict.
I’m sure somebody has the footage of ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN losing it Nov 3 2000 and 2004
“I’m sure somebody has the footage of ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN losing it Nov 3 2000 and 2004″
An interesting comparison.
Liz Blair – There are a lot of us who would go if the military would have us. Many of us have served and would go back. Not our fault. Sorry, your point just doesn’t make much sense.
The MSM’s constant negative spin on Iraq and the military has to have an effect over time. It always does. And it is a lie. No matter what your politics you should be appalled at the bias against the War and the military being shown by the MSM.
I have seen this before. In the late 60’s. North Viet Nam has stated in their war museums that the American Press and the Anti-war groups were a great help to them. The MSM lied then and is lying now. How? They lied by OMISSION, always the best way for propaganda. By ONLY reporting the BAD. NEVER reporting the good. NEVER reporting the evil done by the enemy but blow anything done by the US all out of proportion. The MSM and the Anti-War people think that it worked once it will work again.
Sorry. The MSM isn’t what it was in the late 60’s , earily 70’s. It is no longer the ONLY source. This time it will FAIL. But it cannot help but have some effect. Part of that effect is to effect the parents of would be recuits as well as the recuits themselves.
The MSM is trying to repeat its victory in Viet Nam against the US and the military. This time they will FAIL.
And for all of you libs who doen’t believe that the MSM back then helped lose Viet Nam. I was there. I saw it. And the Government of Viet Nam agrees with ME.
Of course there are also people like Ann Coulter who never served their country, yet have the audacity to blame disabled veterans for what happened in Vietnam. Coulter was fired from MSNBC when she told a disabled Vietnam veteran, “no wonder you guys lost”" (Since when did we lose that war?)
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter
1996, the fledgling television network MSNBC hired Coulter as a legal correspondent and political pundit, which launched her media career. Though she was allowed to make many partisan and controversial comments as a panelist, she was fired in 1997 after an exchange with Bobby Muller, president of the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation
(MSNBC’s NewsChat, October 11, 1997).
EP, wiki’s the last word? Maybe she was responding to some wussified thing he said and not to his condition, or?
Andy, she was likely responding to something the man said, and not his condition. But let the blogger have his fun.
Dan: “No matter what your politics you should be appalled at the bias against the War and the military being shown by the MSM.”
I’m appalled that the washington post editorialized in favor of the war.
Be appalled !
“I’m appalled that the washington post editorialized in favor of the war.” actus
Who the ^^$%*& cares what is said on the EDITORIAL PAGE. It is an OPINION PAGE.
I care about the NEWS PAGES. That is what is important. That is what is appalling.
Yes, actus you are appalled by the Washington Post because it is ONE small part of the MSM that doesn’t toe the propaganda line of the rest of the MSM. That is why you are appalled. They DARE to say something that you don’t agree with. I don’t expect anything else from the Left. Lies and propaganda.
Thanks La Shawn.
“Yes, actus you are appalled by the Washington Post because it is ONE small part of the MSM that doesn’t toe the propaganda line of the rest of the MSM.”
Was the NYT in favor of the war? I haven’t looked that one up.
“I care about the NEWS PAGES. ”
I remember when 5 dead soldiers in a day was front page news. not anymore. at least not at the post.
Actus, check your newspaper history. WaPo and the Old Gray Lady have both historically proven themselves to be against any war or conflict we have participated in. So to say that WaPo is pro-war is historically incorrect. Their percieved actions now are merely an aberration.
This is a subject that inspires strong emotions. I have read many good points, but the person who wrote that this is a complex issue with no one attributable cause makes the most sense. There are many issues involving economics, patriotism, altruism, military interest, etc. I do not think the negative media affects too many that would join otherwise. The war and the prospect of getting killed or maimed gets some who are on the fence.
As for me, I stayed in after 9-11 because of a strong sense of duty to country, but mainly due to unit cohesion. I knew that my unit needed me and I wanted to be there for them. Now we have orders to go and I would have felt strange staying home while they went. I have read Stephen Ambrose report that unit cohesion is what kept troops together in WWII and my own experience shows this to be true.
Another observation I have is that soldiers rarely discuss politics and that morale is high, despite what some report. One embedded journalist commented on how one colleague spent days looking for disgruntled soldiers to interview.
“Actus, check your newspaper history. WaPo and the Old Gray Lady have both historically proven themselves to be against any war or conflict we have participated in.”
As far as history is concerned, the washington post wrote editorials in favor of the invasion of iraq. The NYT, I don’t know.
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