Buy your Club Gitmo gear from the Excellence in Broadcasting store while supplies last! Choose from four sarcastic slogans designed to make even the most moderate liberals steaming mad:
- Got My Free Koran and Prayer Rug at G’itmo
- Your Tropical Retreat from the Stress of Jihad
- My Mullah went to Club G’itmo and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt
- What Happens in G’itmo Stays in G’itmo (My personal favorite!)
Great idea, Rush. 
Update: Good grief. Somebody posted this link at Daily Kos. I hate when that happens. Unless I do it myself.
Update II: Perhaps I should blog more about “women’s topics” or poetry or point you to other blog categories like fictional blogs, novelists with blogs, business, homeschooling and parenting blogs. Anything to diffuse some of this male testosterone in here. You should see the comments I’m not letting through. 
Update III (7/14): Welcome, fans of Rush looking for Gitmo Gear. Stay awhile and read other posts. You’ll discover that we have many things in common.
Fun stuff.
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Muahahahaha.
Oh, if I only had the money right now.
Hey LaShawn,
I ordered myself one of these goodies Friday and can’t wait to get it and wear it proudly!
I’m so disgusted with all this that I gladly sacrificed my money to make a statement!!
And exactly HOW are these shirts supposed to help the free world win the hearts and minds of moderate Muslims so that
we might actually win the global WOT?
Durbin was certainly over-the-top in his rhetoric, but I see SOME conservatives being over-the-top in the opposite direction.
Some conservatives have said that Durbin’s comments give our enemies ammunition which they can use to incite more moderate Muslims to go over to the dark side…
that is perhaps a valid criticism. But aren’t the conservatives pushing these shirts doing the exact same thing? Giving our enemies ammunition… stuff that they can use as propaganda to
recruit more desperate Muslims?
How about:
“Git mo’ Gitmoâ€
“I’d rather be in Gitmo†(pic of Cuban prisoners/any Cuban hospital)
“Gitmo – Now with flush-proof Korans!â€
“Official Gitmo Panty Inspector†(may work better with Abu-Gharib)
I like John Cole’s take on this whole spat. He has it about right. Short version: Stupid choice of words, correct sentiment.
Whatever you think of Durbin or his choice of words, the simple fact is he was saying the old “we’re not different enough” thing.
Of course we are dealing with angry conservatives here, and for them talking about it is always a bigger sin than actually doing it.
In any case, the response can be “Dick Durbin’s an idiot” all day long, but “Yay torture!” or even “Hooray for prison conditions that would outrage the majority of Americans if done to our own troops!” not so much.
LaShawn – just a question: how does torture square with Christian values?
Rape, chopping off heads and limbs, electric shock – these things don’t square with my beliefs. How about yours?
It’s comments like this and a few others I’ve been getting lately that make me want to close commenting down for good. I’m losing patience.
pretty tacky
Horatio, it squares with the government’s God-given authority to use the sword to defend itself and its laws.
If you crack open your Bible to the New Testament:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good18 works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and2 thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. ”
Questions?
So glad I’m a queen. I can be as arbitrary and capricious as I want to be.
Zap!
Didn’t like the way you typed that “T.”
Poof!
Don’t care what you think about it. See ya ’round.
To the dungeon!
You can come out (and be released from the troll list) after you’ve learned some manners.
This is not your mother’s house!
LaShawn Said: “Rape, chopping off heads and limbs, electric shock – these things don’t square with my beliefs. How about yours?
It’s comments like this and a few others I’ve been getting lately that me want to close commenting down for good. I’m losing patience. ”
I say: So an adequate response to extremists that commits hanis crimes against humanity is to promote a T-Shirt? Why isn’t opening a dialogue with moderate Muslims and listening to their grievances about American policy as it pertains to the Middle East an adequate response?
Hey, I know the T-Shirt is joke, I couldn’t expect anything more from Rush Limbaugh. But I think it is childish humor and I’m not impressed. I don’t like Bush but you’d never see me post the many silly collectables making fun of him. It may be due to the fact that I’m 14 years removed from a college campus. It’s the same reason I can’t understand why people go to football games with their faces painted or stand half naked in the stands when it is 20 degrees.
Sigh…
“Of course we are dealing with angry conservatives here, and for them talking about it is always a bigger sin than actually doing it.”
Angry? No, not yet. Exasperated, maybe. Like a parent about his lazy, spoiled brat.
And yes, for conservatives, talking about it can be a sin, especially when liberals who consider slander, deceit and incessant whining “talking about it”.
Just a question – how does the ACLU, the greatest thing to the anti-military liberal left since cut-corner Zig Zags, square with “Christian values” that our soldiers seemingly lack?
“Why isn’t opening a dialogue with moderate Muslims and listening to their grievances about American policy as it pertains to the Middle East an adequate response?”
So we should nominate Rush to an ambassador position or something? I’d be down with that.
James Manning asked the question:
“Why isn’t opening a dialogue with moderate Muslims and listening to their grievances about American policy as it pertains to the Middle East an adequate response?”
Very simple, James. Because the dialoge was opened and closed on September 11th, 2001. The time for dialoge has passed, the time for action came upon us then, and remains as such now.
And it is the actions of this President and of the United States of America which are emboldening oppressed peoples everywhere to rise up and demand their God given freedoms.
Iraq, the purple fingers. Lebanon, free of Syria at last. Egypt, the beginnings of local representation. Kyrgystan, and various “-stans” throughout the region. Georgia. The Ukraine. Libya. Soon, Iran. Soon, Jordan.
Be it democracy or the renouncement of terror by despots like Quadafi, the wave of free movement throughout the world advances apace, and quite unfettered by liberal apologists such as yourself.
For while you’re still wringing your hands in worry about “why did we bring this on ourself by our mid-east policies”, nation after nation, people after people are moving into the columns of democracy and freedom.
And no, I don’t expect you to get it. If you can’t understand by now, I seriously doubt you ever will.
Oh, and Jab? Would “over the top” include any U.S. Citizens blowing themselves up in a crowd of children? Or in a police station? How about ambushing carloads of workers and hanging their broken, burnt and charred corpses from a bridge girder? No? I haven’t heard of any Americans doing that, either.
Y’all need to read this. (apologies to LaShawn….would you mind editing it to an XHTML encoding the link, please?) ((feel free to kill this paragraph to just be a simple “link”.
If after you’ve read this, and can come back whining about some jihadi murderer being “too cold” or otherwise just crapping his pants, then you’re truly a lost, hopeless cause yourself.
We’re at war people…not running for friggin’ Class President!
/rant
Jim
Sloop New Dawn
Galveston, TX
Ya know, I just wrote a nice long response to your post and my browser crashed. I’ll post it later… the frustration is setting in right now. But I will say that I disagree with some things you’ve written and I slightly agree with others. Details to follow.
Here is a DIRECT quote from an FBI interogator:
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold… On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.”
Pointless rants and purchasing T-Shirts will do nothing to help out our troops. The best support you could give the troops is to actually enlist and join the cause.
I think you would be very disappointed in how certain College Republicans handled that dilemma. It further proves that it is much easier to fire off rants and question an opponent’s loyalty, than it is to join the actual war.
From: [Burnplant]
To: [Addresses removed]
Attention young Republicans!
Military recruitment levels are at an all time low.
The Military needs enlistees to continue to support your President.
Please enlist asap! You are Patriotic, Brave and Republican. You voted, now it’s time to back that vote up!
Please visit:
SPOKANE SOUTH
east 2925 b 29th street
spokane, WA 99223
509-535-1871
Your President will be so proud!
From: “Dahlvang, Niclas”
Subject: RE: GOP volunteers
Definitely. I await the day we get to round up all those bastard Democrats and send them to the Canadian Gulag.
From: [Burnplant]
Subject: GOP volunteers
Mr. Dahlvang,
I’m sure that would make everyone happy, but right now there is the little matter of bringing democracy to Iraq. Current troop levels are low and recruitment is suffering. Making jokes is funny and all, and we like a good joke, but men and women are dying so let’s try and have some respect.
If you are not able to enlist, perhaps you could use your formidable Young Republican operation to help out – please consider the levity of the situation in Iraq and see what you can do.
Thank You
GOP Recruiting
From: “Dahlvang, Niclas”
Subject: RE: GOP volunteers
I’m a bit busy at the moment, but when I get some time I’ll go round up some of those misguided Kerry supporters for reeducation. They are the greater threat. They bring death and destruction to the United States every day and must be stopped!
From: [Burnplant]
Subject: RE: GOP volunteers
Okay, I’m not really following all this, you seem to be talking about something else or to someone else. Maybe you are not a real organization and are just joking around? If that’s the case just let us know and we’ll remove you from our list of GOP friendly websites – it’s kind of a waste of our time, and yours, if you are just having a goof at the expense of our military personnel.
Is the Spokane Young Republican’s group for real and able to talk about this or should we scrap the whole thing?
“Paul Schafer”
Subject: RE: GOP volunteers
We’re real….we have a web site so of course we are real. And our Young Republicans group is the largest in Eastern Washington which is half of the state!
I personally don’t see how this “joking around” is at the expense of our military personnel. We support the troops, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t see how advocating for the forceful removal of democrats from our society would do anything but HELP our military do their jobs more effectively!
From: [Burnplant]
Subject: RE: GOP volunteers
Great, that’s a large group! Maybe that other person is kidding around, but you sound for real.
Are you interested in signing up yourself? We are meeting with our recruiting contacts on Monday and I would like to pass along your contact information (and anyone else who is interested) to them.
From: “Paul Schafer”
Subject: RE: GOP volunteers
Who are you?
From: [Burnplant]
Subject: RE: GOP volunteers
GOP Recruiting is a volunteer group founded in 2002 dedicated to helping the
military bring military recruitment up to sustainable levels.
(No Response)
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/
because firing off a rant on a random blog is safer than enlisting.
James, who are the moderate Muslims? CAIR? The only thing they care about is funneling more funds to sacrifice Palestinians at the alter of Intfada.
I’m hard pressed to think of others. Especially since 80% of all mosques here in the US are of the Wahabbi denomination.
OTOH it wouldn’t be hard to think of them if they were out beating the drum day & night in the spirit of toleration.
Oh, wait – I know another. Nation of Islam?
The only dialogue we should conduct with muslims should be on OUR terms only. They must understand that the truth of the matter is that their “religion of peace” has been demoted to killer-cult status, the koran is just another book and until they learn to behave like humans instead of murderous animals, the United States of America will gladly engage them in war and thin their numbers until they surrender and learn to behave.
You do not negotiate with the enemy in war when you are winning. You WIN first and THEN negotiate and unconditional surrender and DICTATE the terms of his surrender. If he refuses to accept, you go back to destroying him and his people, infrastructire and will to fight on.
I know some people who are with the Nation of Islam and although they speak about white supremacy a lot, I’ve never known one to advocate terrorism. In the meantime, try these organizations out for size:
American Islamic Forum for Democracy
Free Muslim Coalition
Muslim Public Affairs Council
Love the color, love the sentiment expressed..but
C’MON! 10 bucks for shipping makes it a $30 T-shirt. This could be shipped US mail for about 2.50….In which case I’d spring for it. Someone’s getting greedy here, Rush
The ver definition of izlam is terrorism. Their little book drips with blood and calls for killing.
The practitioners of their little cult have refused to evolve.
“Moderate” Muslims have had years to speak out forcefully against terror, against the Cole attack, against both WTC attacks, against the Bali bombing, to disavow radicalism, and to align themselves with the forces of freedom and religious tolerance. I’ve been listening, and all I have heard is a very few lukewarm “can’t we all just get along” type comments and otherwise just a lot of crickets chirping.
I’m ordering two shirts.
I feel like I should be ashamed for thinking this is HILARIOUS!!
Oops! The first one auto-completed the wrong web address. Sorry. My original comment was:
I feel like I should be ashamed for thinking this is HILARIOUS!
“Moderate muslim?” Is that anything like sort of pregnant?
James, good to know. Is there an ongoing MSM/DNC conspiracy to shut them up so that CAIR can speak for all muslims?
If not, the onus is on them to get their message out like any other major PR campaign.
Jab, it now appears that Turbin Durbin made that FBI “memo” up. You know, false but accurate. Seems like the only verbaim part is “detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor”.
More to follow, probably in the morning as certain things get verified. Just thot I’d let you know so you don’t crystalize TD’s rant as gospel truth.
======================
But you know what? That Jihadi probably was delirious with joy, wetting himself when he realized that he had just experienced the worst that we would ever throw at him.
TD’s ‘memo’ doesn’t mention whether the fetal position was pointing towards Mecca. If it was, said Jihadi was probably praising Allah that he wasn’t going to get the car battery on sensitive organs or an acid shower.
The reason that anything from the FBI ‘experts’ might be suspect, is that the feebs are currently getting raked in a committee hearing for not promoting terror experts on Arabs/Islam from within the ranks, instead the portfolio holders are bring in other buddies (experts in IRA terror and other nonsuch)from accross the country to staff the counter-islamic terrorism unit.
Wish I had the link on ‘feeble experts’ right now, but I’m sure that’ll pop up again soon enough.
For all our friend that say we should seek out a dialogue with moderate Muslims, there is one major problem with accomplishing that feat. If we are talking about dialogue with Muslims in other countries, those folks are either in prison, house arrest, followed 24/7 by secret police or dead. The governments in the majority of Muslim led countries have more or less halted the free flow of ideas, thereby eliminating any hope of dialogue with people that dissent with their governments views.
In regards to the moderates here, there have been many opportunities for them to speak out, and for whatever reason, their voices do not make it to the masses. Andy neatly explained that there are two potential reasons for that taking place. There is no moderate voice being heard in the United States.
Dialogue in and of itself is a Pandora’s Box in which most people have no understanding of. We have grown up accustomed to the division of church and state, a government imposed dose of secularism. That makes dialogue entirely reasonable for us. However, that does not play in most Muslim countries. We forget that in these countries, regardless of government, Islam comes first. Turkey and Saddam led Iraq in its earlier days were the only countries with government imposed secularism. In the rest of the Muslim world, dialogue is incomptible if you ask people to divorce themselves from their beliefs.
We are in a current situation where dialogue may not be possible in the short term. This was not of our choosing. We were attacked, over and over and over and over. Yet people still want to talk? Let me ask you this, how many times are you willing to let someone hit you in the face before you take action? One, two, three? Probably none. Well, that is the same situation our government is in now. How many times does our nation have to be attacked before we clue in to the fact that negotiation, nuance and dialogue do not work with people who want to eradicate us from the face of the earth?!?!?!
Let me add, that waht I am saying is not that Muslims are incapable of dialogue, but that those we would be having dialogue with are incompatible for dialogue itself. They do not wish to talk with us. They only wish to impose their interpretation of the Koran upon us. Those that do wish to talk, like I said, are either in jail, house arrest, or dead.
“Jab, it now appears that Turbin Durbin made that FBI “memo†up. You know, false but accurate. Seems like the only verbaim part is “detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floorâ€. ”
I don’t know where you got this idea. The memo has been released. I think a few weeks ago. They were part of an ACLU FOIA request. See linky:
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI_5053_5054.pdf
Where was the report that it was made up? Be careful not to trust the MSM.
There is no such thing as a moderate muslim.
Oh, yeah, the moderate Muslims who met in Washington DC to protest terrorism and something like ten showed up? Seriously.
La Shawn, Love the blog! Keep it going!
Looking through this bunch of comments, some things are missing and are more to the point. What this line of comments doesn’t say is how Durbin has trivialized the true evil that were the Nazis, the Stalin Communists, Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge, and Al Qaeda. It cheapens those who were truly victims of real torture and genocide. It also goes to show how the Democrats don’t care about anything but making this President look bad. Case in point; genocide continues in Sudan, the UN is a disaster, and the Democrats continue to dither on the Bolton nomination.
Also, Durbin is responsible for lowering the morale of our soldiers all over the world, not just Iraq. Go to blogsite Blackfive to see letters to Durbin by veterans and soldiers and how they feel he’s cheapened them. There are many of them who see themselves being spat upon by their own government, just like when many returned home from Vietnam.
I believe Durbin’s comments only help the enemy somewhat, mostly regarding the lowering of our soldier’s morale.
I don’t believe that we could look any worse in the eyes of most Muslims who are usually told what to think anyway by their imams or governments. What I want to see is a host of clerics, imams, and ayatollahs, in these Muslim countries, stand up to the degenerates in Al Qaeda, Hamas, Al Aqsa, Hizbollah, etc., and say “Enough!!! You don’t speak for Islam and we don’t recognize you as one of us!!!” How about a little old West vigilante justice where the people of these towns do something with the terrorists, like run them out of town or hang them.
I’m from Illinois and Durbin’s one if its Senators (not mine though). I think he’s a disgrace and what he said was shameful and disgusting, and I’ve emailed him repeatedly to resign. I’ve also sent emails to Harry “Loser” Reid and other Democrats to remove Durbin from every committee he’s on if he doesn’t. They won’t do anything, unfortunately. Or fortunately; the ballot box is open in 2006 and don’t think comments like these by Democratic morons won’t be used against them.
LaShawn,
You KNOW what the problem is. These lefty men are jealous that a conservative woman has such a successful, well-written, attractive blog. Michelle Malkin gets a lot of the same guff from this type of guy/Neanderthal.
Keep blogging. I love reading what you have to say.
Evon
La Shawn, don’t let the trolls get you down.
And for those who are enraged by the Club G’itmo gear, guess what? NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY IT!
IT’s not just the lefty men who are cutting up, some of you rightys need to look in the mirror TOO.
How about us centrist/conservatives? Do we need to look in the mirror?
I wonder what would’ve happed if a P.O.W. in the Hanoi Hilton in 1969 would have said: “I demand a Bible, and also you had better wear gloves while handling it, lest you defile it, you yellow infidel.” I’m sure that would have gone over well.
Perhaps we should find some of these old North Vietnamese guards (I bet McCain has their number) and sub-contract out our duties in Gitmo. Then the defence secretary can plausibly say, “Well, that’s not us…”
Evon,
Face it, conservative women that know what they stand for, why they stand for it, and well, stand for it = sexy.
I like strong, assertive women who know exactly what they want. My wife wanted the yard mowed last Saturday, so she just went right ahead and did it.
I’m in trouble now, aren’t I?
Redbeard,
Wasn’t a major point of feminism that woman can do whatever a man can do, and that they don’t need to rely on men to do things for them?
You’re just enabling the liberation, brother.
Andy: “Jab, it now appears that Turbin Durbin made that FBI “memo†up. You know, false but accurate. Seems like the only verbaim part is “detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floorâ€.”
Where did you get this idea? the memo’s (emails actually) were part of a a FOIA release. the ACLU got them on 12/15/04, and then passed them on on 1/5/05. Since they’ve already been FOIA’ed, you can write to the government yourself and get your own copies. Or you can just look at it here:
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI_5053_5054.pdf
“The reason that anything from the FBI ‘experts’ might be suspect, is that the feebs are currently getting raked in a committee hearing for not promoting terror experts on Arabs/Islam from within the ranks”
Good thing the email is over six months old. That way you can trust it. You also shouldn’t trust whoever told you that Durbin was lying about it. Did you get it from the MSM?
How incredibly cool. Think I’ll be gettin’ me a t-shirt or two. Funny, innit- all of a sudden the left is getting a conscience about what’s offensive and why these t-shirts are in bad taste….. let’s just pretend they’re art and making an important statement about the transient nature of existence in our capitalistic society, then you lefties can read about it in the Sunday NYT and it’ll be cool.
Think they missed a couple slogans:
1) for a bumper sticker: Another Gitmo Prisoner for Durbin!
2) for a tshirt: I got mo’ at Gitmo.
Wish Clinton would shut his capacious piehole and go back to where he belongs…. chasing waitresses around Arkansas BBQ joints in hopes of getting them to go to the bedroom at his presidential library/trailer.
As for this torture……
First, these jagoffs were caught on a battlefield wearing no military insignia or uniforms. By Geneva convention rule, they could have been/should have been summarily executed. The mere unfortunate fact of their existence is a testament to the US’s stupendous mercy.
Next, could someone please cite another example in the history of mankind where a stay at a gulag/concentration camp/POW camp/chamber of horrors resulted in the heinous and awful condition of the prisoners GAINING on average 18 pounds?
And for those people with apparently pointy heads that cause short memories- you do remember 9/11, do you not? I imagine the people launching themselves from 100 floors up would gladly trade places with the poor detainee that has to deal with egregious A.C. and Christina Aguilera.
As for the geniuses mouthing the latest lefty dodge-i.e., if you’re so into the war, why don’t you go enlist? Tell you what- if you’re so into “dialoguing” and “reasoning” with these subhumans, why don’t you go to Iran, or Syria, or the triangle in Iraq and “dialogue”? Make sure you take a bible while you’re at it, just to get a sense of how “tolerant” they are of other religions.
LaShawn, as ever- outstanding job.
La Shawn,
Wow, I wish I had gotten in on this thread earlier, I have so much to say.
First, the only reason we would have a reputation abroad for torture, is that our own liberal Senators and Congressmen/women give us that reputation with their outlandish rhetoric, accompanied by the types of coverage given by the media to the left and all they have to say with regard to us “torturing prisoners”. One of my favorite quotes from the initial reaction of Democrats to Abu Ghraib came from my Senator, Jim Inhofe when he said he was “outraged at the outrage” over the whole thing.
Second, the mere existence of Gitmo is not the cause for alarm that the liberals seem to think it is. We have to have somewhere to put POW’s. In WWII we had camps all over the country. I for one would certainly rather have them housed outside the continental Unites States and can think of no better place than Gitmo, which was/is a highly secure environment to begin with due to the fact that it is located on hostile territory.
Third, the left in this country need to get a grasp of reality. The treatment of prisoners at Gitmo that has to date been brought to light is NOT torture. Even the treatment of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib was not TORTURE by any previously used definition of the word. HUMILIATION, yes, but not torture, and it takes a grasp of reality to be able to discern the difference apparently.
While I’m at it, one of the more shocking things that Durbin said is not that big of a deal. Having worked in a jail environment, it doesn’t suprise me when I see something like “the prisoner had urinated or defecated himself”. I have seen prisoners in city and county lockups do the same thing when not handcuffed or chained up, and with a toilet only a couple feet away, just because it makes dealing with them and especially searching them very unpleasant. It is a way to gat at the guards without doing anything that could be called aggressive and dealt with accordingly.
It is truly sad that the liberal left, the mainstream media, and the Democrat party are all willing to sacrifice the lives of our brave young soldiers (and I use that term inclusively of all branches of service) in order to try to get at George Bush. It is a shame that they are all willing to suffer defeat, leave the Middle East in shambles, and add untold amounts of danger to the world and lives of our children and grandchildren in order to try to wrest power in Washington from the conservatives who now hold it.
It is unforgivable that they would empower our enemies and cozy up to the evil monsters who, upon finding them no longer useful, would quickly and ruthlessly wipe them out if given the opportunity.
We are coddling the enemy combatant prisoners at Gitmo far more than we have ever done at any time in past conflicts. Liberals need to learn to distinguish the status of these prisoners as enemy combatants or POW’s from people who are in our civil prison system. They do not have the same rights, they are not in custody for the same reasons, and we DO NOT let POW’s whether classed as “enemy combatants” or true POW’s go until the war is over. If it takes 10, 15, 20 years so be it. They are not under “arrest” they are captive enemies of the State in a time of war. Get over it and stop giving our enemies propaganda to use to whip up more resistance to us in our efforts to reduce the future dangers of terrorist activity in this country.
Jab, here’s the link on FBI’s ME experts getting passed over:
“Director Robert Mueller says he doesn’t believe his counterterrorism supervisors need to have a background in Arabic, the Middle East or international issues.”
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050621/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/fbi_terror_jobs
I was wondering about the FBI memo: 1) How could the detainee pull his hair out if his hands and feet were bound together in a forced fetal position? 2) Is “couple of occasions” two? More? How many different detainees?
At any rate, IMO the t-shirts aren’t exactly in good taste; however, they’re in much better taste than the remarks like those by idiot Durbin. Even if what happened to those detainees is considered “torture,” such instances were rare and not part of a systematic campaign. And, it appears such was limited to those detainees who were deemed to have vital info. Even Alan Dershowitz advocates outright torture to extract info in a “ticking bomb” scenario; I’m not saying the US had that with those detainees in Gitmo, but then again, they probably had info vital enough (or, we thought they had info vital enough) to warrant such coerced interrogations short of actual torture.
One more thing: Does anyone realize that President Bush and the US in general have treated the present captured combatants better than in any other war? That US civil rights “curtailments” have been less than in any other war?
RedBeard
Your comment reminds me about Ronald Reagan telling about the time he bought his wife a log splitter for Christmas.
Before my heart started acting up again, I loved to shovel snow. I even bought myself a special small shovel to do it so I wouldn’t hurt my back. Shoveling took longer that way but I didn’t mind.
Jed Babbin writes (found at Powerline):
If you believe the Deanocrats and their media pals, we’re holding people incommunicado, in a legal limbo, where innocents are beaten, starved, and tortured, that America is an international outlaw, that Gitmo is OBL’s best recruiting tool, that we’re violating the Geneva Conventions, and that all the Islamic fascisti would join with us to sing Kumbaya if only we closed Gitmo. Enough. You won’t get your teens to read all three volumes of Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago. But you may, at least, be able to get them to read from here to the bottom of this article.
We’re holding people there incommunicado? According to 1st Lt. Wade Brown, the chief mail man at Gitmo, every detainee at Gitmo, regardless of his conduct, is allowed mail privileges unless he can’t be trusted with a pen because he’s threatened to harm himself. Lt. Brown, in a sworn declaration dated March 17, 2005, said that from September 2004 through February 2005, 14,000 pieces of mail were sent or received by detainees at Gitmo.
Legal limbo? Some 800 suspected terrorists have, so far, been incarcerated at Gitmo. All of them have had their cases reviewed by military commissions. About 235 have been released, 61 are today awaiting release or transfer, and about 520 remain, having been given all the due process to which they are entitled by U.S. and international law, including the Geneva Conventions. They are enemy combatants. We are entitled to hold them until the war is over[consistent with enemy combatants that we picked up in WW2] whether it’s tomorrow or in 2525.
Are we torturing and starving these people? No. Chaining someone to a wall or a floor isn’t comfortable, but it isn’t torture. And it’s important to remember what is. Nearly two years ago, I spoke to three men who were held in a Saudi jail and given the full Lubyanka treatment. In a 2003 interview, James Lee, Peter Brandon, and Glenn Ballard each told me of how they were treated. What Brandon described to me was credible and consistent with what the other two said.
Brandon told me he was “systematically beaten” and subjected to what he called the “rotisserie” treatment. “I was shackled at the feet, you see, and handcuffed,” Brandon told me. “And they sort of thread a broom handle through your arms and your legs. Then you’re hung upside down, and so you’ve got all the weight on the creases of your arms, so it’s very painful.” On the third day, they beat his bare feet with an ax handle so badly that his feet were bloody. He was screaming so much that they forced a gag down his throat, and for a moment stopped his breathing. After about five days of beatings and sleep deprivation, the Saudis threatened to arrest Brandon’s wife and toddler son. He broke down, and confessed to terrorist bombings he says he didn’t commit. I believe Brandon and the others of the crimes they were convicted of because the Saudis released them instead of executing them or imprisoning them for life under what passes for law there. What went on in that Saudi jail was torture. What’s going on at Gitmo isn’t.
What is going on is the interrogation and extended detention of some of the worst hard-case terrorists. They are terrorist trainers and financiers, bomb makers, would-be suicide bombers, terrorist recruiters and facilitators, and some of OBL’s bodyguards. Of the hundreds who were judged not to be terrorists and released, at least a dozen have been recaptured on the battlefield, having again taken arms to kill Americans. The intelligence gained at Gitmo is enabling us to prevent terrorist attacks and save American lives.
Baklava,
Excellent comment
Another thing the people who think that prisoners are being “tortured” at Gitmo should keep in mind is illustrated by your anecdote about “Brandon’s” experience with the Saudi’s. Our intelligence people are fully aware that out and out torture brings very unreliable results. The individual being subjected to it will say and/or do anything to make it stop, including giving false confessions, even confessions that may result in his later execution in order to make the torture stop.
The techniques used at Gitmo while making the subject very uncomfortable do not cross the line to the point that the subject will make false statements just to get some relief. It becomes a game of annoyance to the point of giving some valid info in order to return to a level of comfort without pushing the subject into desperation.
The entire environment is geared to extracting cooperation from the detainees. The providing of Korans, the prayer calls, the culturally correct food, etc. all play into getting the detainees into the right frame of mind (level of comfort) to be able to get what info they have that might be of use to us.
You should also keep in mind that the detainees who have been there for an extended period of time are no longer subject to being interrogated. Any info they may have had has either been obtained, or is out of date to the point of not being useful. They are simply being housed until the end of hostilities like any other POW.
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.5053.pdf
Copy of the FBI memo…
One person’s perspective has become Bush ordering or agreeing to the treatment.
Another agent emailed this perspective (not quoted by Durbin or others):
“I saw [a] detainee sitting on the floor of the interview room with an Israeli flag [oh the horror] draped around him, loud music being played and a strobe light flashing [hey a dance club]. I left the monitoring room immediately after seeing this activity. I did not see any other persons inside the interview room with the Israeli flag draped detainee, but suspect that this was a practice used by DOD DHS . . .”
Bak, that PDF is ‘interesting’ but barring a sworn oath, it’s next to hearsay. Like you said, it’s but one person’s perspective and probably one that’s not even an expert on the Middle East.
A couple of questions I’d ask ACLU: if this came out under FOIA, why is one of the names uncovered. And what’s with the email to fax transfer?
“Bak, that PDF is ‘interesting’ but barring a sworn oath, it’s next to hearsay.”
Its not hearsay for someone to describe what they saw. Its just not under oath. Its just someone replying to what appears to be their boss.
“A couple of questions I’d ask ACLU: if this came out under FOIA, why is one of the names uncovered. And what’s with the email to fax transfer? ”
The numbers and codes next to the names refer to the FOIA exemptions used to blank out the words. These particular ones are privacy exemptions, protecting the privacy of the parties. My guess as to why Caproni is not redacted is because it already is public knowledge that he received emails from FBI agents who sent in abuse reports.
It looks like its an email printout. Probably done at the FBI. Rather than turn over and redact electronic documents, they probably just print them out and then redact on paper.
Are you really doubtful that this is an undoctored result of a FOIA? If so, you could request the same document of the FBI.
I know what the codes and numbers are, I’m talking about the crappy fax of an email. And no I’m not interested in a FOIA since I really couldn’t care less what we dish out to the detainees.
I’d have no problem executing them at dawn once we feel we’ve extracted whatever out of them. They’re not POWs. That way, the world gets the message – take up arms aginst us out of uniform and you’re dead, one way or another.
Altho I recognize there is a psychological adavantage from the terrorist’s perspective that if they surrender, they might live, rather than face sure death. There’s pros and cons on that, but I’m willing to let the powers that be decide that.
Its not hearsay for someone to describe what they saw. Its just not under oath. Its just someone replying to what appears to be their boss.
What Andy is saying, that as evidence, or as ammo to toss against Gitmo and the Bush admin, it has very little value. If the author goes on record, then it gains in value. But Andy is right, it has little more value than hearsay accounts.
Either you are purposely misinterperetting what Andy has written (and if so, shame), or not comprehending and missing the point. If it is the latter, let me introduce you to a potential friend:
Point, meet actus, actus, meet point. You’ve been missing each other, passing but never meeting.
“What Andy is saying, that as evidence, or as ammo to toss against Gitmo and the Bush admin, it has very little value. If the author goes on record, then it gains in value. But Andy is right, it has little more value than hearsay accounts.”
Really? I suspect that when top guys at the FBI ask FBI agents for what they saw, those FBI agents tend to tell the truth. In that way it has real value.
I do admit that in court it would be challenged as hearsay, and we would need the original declarant there. Or to use a hearsay exception.
Like I said. Its not a statement under oath. But it is a statement on a rather weighty topic to a higher up. I think this is quite a bit more reliable than hearsay. Do you think bosses are used to taking statements from their underlings like hearsay? What else do they have?
“Point, meet actus, actus, meet point. You’ve been missing each other, passing but never meeting.”
I understand the point. The point is that andy thinks that we can’t belive what FBI agents tell their bosses. Because apparently is just like hearsay and not under oath.
“I know what the codes and numbers are, I’m talking about the crappy fax of an email.
Probably internal handling of the FOIA by the feds.
“And no I’m not interested in a FOIA since I really couldn’t care less what we dish out to the detainees.”
Just trying to assuage your fears that this is a doctored document.
SCSI, reckon point taken?
SCSI & Andy,
With actus . . . . no, not likely.
“SCSI, reckon point taken?”
the problem im noticing is that a rather explicit disagreement with a point is taken as a misunderstanding of a point. The point is to attack the credibility of the memo, by likening it to hearsay. The point is addressed by talking about other factors that affect its credibility, and how it is and is not like hearsay.
Tangentially, we can even talk about what hearsay exceptions it falls under, because these exceptions are usually motivated by the same veracity concerns that motivate the hearsay rule in the first place.
You mean rather like addressing the factors that affect the Rathergate memos credibility, and how it is and is not like fake?
Actus wrote, “Its not hearsay for someone to describe what they saw. Its just not under oath. Its just someone replying to what appears to be their boss.”
I thought you knew more about law Actus…. that is hearsay.
#66 wrote, “by likening it to hearsay.”
It is hearsay.
“I thought you knew more about law Actus…. that is hearsay.”
Its hearsay for someone other than the declarant to say it. It is not hearsay for the declarant to say it.
“You mean rather like addressing the factors that affect the Rathergate memos credibility, and how it is and is not like fake?”
I’m not following, you think this document isn’t credible, like the rather memos?
First and foremost I have to agree with the previous commenter who said that what we are doing in Guantanamo is far from torture. The authenticity of the memo is moot. We could do a lot worse than we are and still not have it be torture. We need to wring these men dry of every scrap of information, and then every single one of them that we know for sure commited an act of terrorism needs to be placed against the wall and shot. Heck, not even an act of terrorism, every one that took the field against us not wearing a uniform needs a bright orange target painted on his forehead.
People are crying about the Geneva convention. I’m going to repeat what has been said so many times. The convention does not apply, and, oh yeah, we never signed it. We treat people better than any other country on earth, because we are better.
When did we turn into a nation of cowards? Before you you start with the, “Why don’t you join,” crying and whining, I’m already a veteran of a war. I’m too old to reenlist. I would. We are in a war to the knife and the people need to wake up and see it.
Next, there are no moderate Muslims. There are Muslims who believe every word in their holy book and are willing to follow every word therein. For these you can use the words terrorist, and supporter of terrorists. Then, there are hypocrites.
Truthfully, I think most American muslims fall into the category of hypocrite. The rest are traitors.
Actus,
http://www.dictionary.com has hearsay with the following definition as well as yours.
a statement made out of court and not under oath which is offered as proof that what is stated is true called also hearsay evidence
It is a statement made out of court and not under oath Actus.
Bak,
He is a law student, not a lawyer. Maybe they haven’t covered this stuff yet. I’m not sure which of the books it would be in, but I suspect “Biggles Takes the Bar” might be it.
“a statement made out of court and not under oath which is offered as proof that what is stated is true called also hearsay evidence”
I know. But its not quite being used in court either.
Did you get to the part where this might be a hearsay exception?
Just caught something on the Detroit noon news about a 15 year old boy who was just arrested for breaking his sister’s back and parents being charged with endangering a minor or something like that.
The crux? The MUSLIM boy saw his siser talking to a catholic boy yesterday at school and proceeded to beat her. She’s now in ICU with a broken back. I checked ABC’s CH7 WXYZ for a link but of course their linkage o stories they cover is spotty at best.
This multi-culti tolerance crap has gone on long enough! Any Muslim that feels honor beatings/killings are a legitimate tenet of their faith needs to pack their bags and get out of this country. Leave!!! Go!!! and don’t let the door hit you on the way out!!!
Of course, expect CAIR to care more about protecting the civil rights of the perps from racism in prosecuting this case than caring about the minor female victim.
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