I like controversy. I like to stir things up. That’s why I’m directing you to a column I read occasionally, Fred on Everything. How many of you will admit reading Fred’s columns? Raise your hands high.
An excerpt from his latest (about the black cartoon character with the big white lips):
Blacks are not making themselves friends in this part of the world. (More correctly, American blacks are not. Hispanic blacks behave normally, speak Spanish instead of Hisbonics, and seem to be pretty good people.) The Mexican reaction, certainly as I find it among people I know, and in the media, is one of annoyance, or something stronger than annoyance. “What business do American blacks have telling us what stamps we can issue? Who the hell do they think they are?â€Good question….This brings me to my belief that the intense racial discord that quietly underlies American life is largely the product of the policies of special privilege and lack of responsibility. As I’ve said before, when I was twenty I believed that policy should be determined without regard to race, creed, color, sex, or national origin. I was called the merest liberal and perhaps a dangerous communist. Now, forty years later, I believe that policy should be determined without regard to race, creed, color, sex, or national origin. This makes me a racist, a racist being one who does not believe that blacks should automatically get everything they want.
Woo! I heard that, Fred, and I agree. Critics can’t call me a racist, though. Instead, they call me a “self-hater” because I believe that policy should be determined without regard to race, creed, color, sex, or national origin.
Update (6:41 p.m.): Do I know how to pick a topic, or what? So far this post has generated 63 comments, mostly from the same people having an intense and hopefully polite discussion. I’m finished working for the day, just signed on some cool new clients, and I’m ready to get wild!
Stay tuned for more controversy…
{ 84 comments }
Hey, you can’t deny the benefits of bussing – to bus makers.
I didn’t raise my hand.
While, the fight for the Supreme Court nominee will primarily focus on abortion (because liberals think we are this close “” to having abortion outlawed when that isn’t true…), the trump card of all trump cards that’ll bring black Americans into the fight will be the views of the Supreme Court nominee on “racial preferences”.
Stay tuned to see that angle come up shortly…
When Mexicans stop telling us how to run our country’s borders, then I (a black American) will stop telling them about their racist postage stamp series. The nerve!
I respect anyone who speaks the trtuth from his, or her, heart. I am a part of an ethnic group but I never just automatically vote the party line with my people. I may disagree with the group’s point of view. I owe my allegiance to truth first and foremost!
TRUTH-I hit the wrong key!! LOL
Thanks molotov!!!!
I don’t know really why I am bothering to respond but I will. I am tired. I read Fred’s opinion on everything and thank God it’s just that.
It gets really frustrating to read that black people at 13% are the cause of/root of ALL of the problems in the United States of America. And for those who are going to respond with a call for citations and links to websites where you can read where that was actually said, here’s a newflash: It’s my opinion and how I feel. So there!
People like this Fred character make my head hurt because when I poked around his site a bit more I read comments like: Black parents don’t make their kids learn and most black people are functionally illiterate.
As a black woman, I am quite aware of the challenges that face the black community and I don’t shirk from them or deny them.
However, I sure wish that Fred and others of his ilk (who may or may not be white, but I daresay the majority ARE white), would look in the mirror sometimes and realize that white folks are indeed part of the reason that this country is screwed. After all, you guys are 70% of the population.
My rant is not to bash all white people, because certainly one can’t group all people together and assume they are a monolith.
Oh but wait a minute, that’s what Fred does.
And I bet a lot of you that comment here or just read here, I bet you do too.
And for the record, I have enough trouble worrying about the many people in the US who aren’t bothered by those stamps to worry about the Mexicans. I don’t live there.
Tiffany wrote, “It gets really frustrating to read that black people at 13% are the cause of/root of ALL of the problems in the United States of America.”
Can you send me the link where Fred was saying that?
The reason why we question you and your perspective Tiffany is because it isn’t born of truth. I can feel that the grass is blue but it’s not.
Tiffany wrote, “when I poked around his site a bit more” When you poke around La Shawn’s site you can read all sorts of comments also.
Tiffany wrote, “would look in the mirror sometimes and realize that white folks are indeed part of the reason that this country is screwed.” I think 100% of people will agree to that. I’ll say it. White folks are indeed part of the reason that this country is screwed [to the extent that this country is screwed - it's a great country that has it's problems - I'm only agreeing to the part that white people are part of the reason]
Tiffany. You certainly have a hot-button. It’s the same issue each time you show your passion. I like the passion, however I just don’t understand where scientifically/numerically/quantitatively or via just plain old reading comprehension you can say the things you say even if it is just your feelings. They should be based in some form or another on something that was really said. Otherwise nobody can address said feelings.
My rant is not to bash all white people, because certainly one can’t group all people together and assume they are a monolith.
Oh but wait a minute, that’s what Fred does.
And I bet a lot of you that comment here or just read here, I bet you do too.
No grouping there, none at all
You can feel how you like, of course. Like Ian Anderson said “I may make you feel, but I can’t make you think”, emotional responses are always easier to provoke than intellectual ones.
Fred takes whites to task for being too lazy to compete with asians, among other things. I don’t recall him blaming all of America’s problems on blacks, but I do know he thinks not all of black America’s problems are wholly caused by whites, either. That blacks need to own the solutions, and own up to some of the causes, of the troubles they face.
Actually, that last part sounds a bit like LB or Bill Cosby. I guess that opinion is unpopular in some circles, regardless of who says it.
Reply #7:
I agree with you on this. But it doesn’t surprise me how badly black people are looked upon. We’ve been a target most of our history here and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. It’s just now it is more acceptable to say that we as a people are humanly deplorable, morally reprehensible and politically bankrupt. We are a misguided lot, locked in a victimized mentality and that everything that is wrong with America can be attributed to black folks.
James wrote, “everything that is wrong with America can be attributed to black folks.”
Only person I see saying that is you… Who believes this? Where is it stated?
if you are sensitive I’d advise NOT looking at Fred’s site. His opinions are pretty blunt. He does not sugar coat anything. I happen to agree with him most of the time and when I don’t I can still see were he is coming from. Please be aware that Fred REALLY did not like the victim culture that evolved in this country. He lives as an expat in Mexico.
Baklava,
I didn’t ask you to address anything actually. In fact, I wish sometimes you’d keep your mouth shut, although it is your priviledge to post here at LBC as much as it is mine.
How dare you say to me: “The reason why we question you and your perspective Tiffany is because it isn’t born of truth. I can feel that the grass is blue but it’s not.”
THE DAY YOU WAKE UP BLACK IS THE DAY YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUESTION MY PERSPECTIVE ON ANYTHING. YOU HAVE SOME NERVE INSINUATING THAT MY PERSPECTIVE IS SOMEHOW A LIE OR FALSE.
I don’t have to drop a bunch of weblinks to speak from my experiences and my experiences do create feelings.
My reading comphrension is just fine, I might add.
The Mexican stamps ARE offensive. I can’t do anything about it there but I can do something here: I can state my opposition of the stamps from my perspective based on what I have learned via my education and my life experiences.
You can debate all day long on my passion and beliefs, but don’t you EVER question my blackness and assume my “perspective isn’t born out of truth”. You don’t live in my skin and truth be told you wouldn’t want to.
You are WAY out of line on that one.
Tiffany wrote, “I didn’t ask you to address anything actually.”
No. But I’m free. And I wondered “Did Fred or di he not state what you said he did?
Tiffany wrote, “THE DAY YOU WAKE UP BLACK IS THE DAY YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUESTION MY PERSPECTIVE ON ANYTHING.”
How racist.
Tiffany wrote, “YOU HAVE SOME NERVE INSINUATING THAT MY PERSPECTIVE IS SOMEHOW A LIE OR FALSE.”
Is the grass blue or green? Did Fred state what you stated he said or not?
Tiffany wrote, “but don’t you EVER question my blackness”
What sentence did I do that?
Tiffany wrote, “You are WAY out of line on that one.”
I’ll apologize and not write the sentence again [to you] if you let me know which sentence I was wrong to write and it matches up to reality…
Baklava, I think you touched an entire ganglia there.
Call it what you like. If racist is your word of choice then fine, I can handle it.
You do have the right to question behaviors/cultural differences of black people at length if you desire.
You do NOT have the right to call me a liar or say I speak things are untrue and you definitely don’t have the right to say my life experiences/perspectives as living as a black person in this country are untrue. For that, you ARE out of line.
There is a difference which you fail to understand and frankly I’m not surprised.
I may be a racist, but you certainly are ignorant.
Tiffany, the word they don’t understand is etiology, and the theory is the first law of thermodynamics, cause and effect. It is simple for so many white folks to disengage and pontificate when it relates to A) things they can not understand and B)things which don’t relate or that don’t concern them in a material way.
I can toss out all the statistics, the data from psychology, sociology, census, history etc. but when the law of cognitive dissonance and steriotyping comes into play, you might is well give it a rest.
The code words for them to assume no responsibility are “victim mentality”, “race baiting”, “race card”, “reverse discrimination” etc. In reality, they really dont care about you nor anyother black person other than as an abstract disembodied figure on a message board who has the audacity to say her experiences contradict their myopic rationalization and perception on race in America. Except of course for those who say “But I have black friends”
Then you get those ‘helsinki syndrom’ black folk. But we will leave that alone.
At the end of the day, you shouldn’t get frusterated, upset or down, just lace up your boots, strap on your helmet, and continue to fight what has occurred based upon the history of this nation and what you know to be true. Racism is real, the effects of racism are abundently tangible and evident and there is work that has to be done internally and externally amongst us black folk.
Let Mexico keep its stamps, we got bigger issues at home.
Of course, this is just my “blunt opinion”
SCSI, I had to look up ganglia in http://www.dictionary.com
Tiffany wrote, “You do NOT have the right to call me a liar or say I speak things are untrue”
Can I say the same thing to you? I am speaking my truth aint I? Don’t question what I say either.
I’m sorry. I love the logic games here.
Tiffany wrote, “you definitely don’t have the right to say my life experiences/perspectives as living as a black person in this country are untrue.”
When did I say your life experiences/perspectives as living as a black person in this country are untrue? Word mean things and that’s why I mentioned anything about reading comprehension.
Tiffany wrote, “I may be a racist, but you certainly are ignorant.”
I didn’t call you racist. I mentioned that what you said was racist. So.. Just wondering for what are you name calling me ignorant for? Is it that I pointed out that Fred didn’t say what you said he said? Or was it that I pointed out that I didn’t say what you said I said? Please let me know so that I can be un-ignorant.
Dell wrote, “In reality, they really dont care about you nor anyother black person ”
Boy, that’s a racist accusation.
Dell wrote, “Except of course for those who say “But I have black friends—
But I do have black friends. One who told me in 1999 that he changed his registration to Republican [we've had very long political discussions preceding that] and my kids and I go to his house and swim in his pool and we both like the Redskins and he sits one cubicle away from me at work and we’ve shared many a beer together. Huh. Dare I say that Dell’s accusation is baseless?
I like a good tussle, but I certainly didn’t mean for “Racist!” accusations to fly. Please don’t go there, people.
Dell/James:
You are absolutely correct. Why get my pressure up when Baklava’s modus operandi is to twist the words of others to TRY to make them appear to be the fools.
I’ve asked him before to not respond to my comments but he refuses. My last resort is to ignore his verbal treachery and refuse to engage him.
Thanks for looking out.
Baklava, of course you would say that, which is exactly why (if I had a sarcastic font it would have been more evident) I used the “I understand blacks because I have a black friend” statement.
And as I always have said, I have a live call in talk telivision show on a local station here in Omaha. Anyone who wants to debate me on any of this topics let me know and I will set up a time when the schedule clears in 3 or 4 weeks and we can debate any of these subjects. I will be fair.
What do you say Baka, SCSI?
Let me find a better word then for this argument:
“THE DAY YOU WAKE UP BLACK IS THE DAY YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUESTION MY PERSPECTIVE ON ANYTHING.â€
How about trump card. I can never ever question someone ever again. That someone won the debate because I ceased to have rights to question what sentence Fred wrote that said what was stated he said.
Eh. Trump card is two words.
Defined by dictionary.com as:
1) Games. A card in the trump suit, held in reserve for winning a trick.
2) A key resource to be used at an opportune moment; a trump: “ [They] seem determined to use the agreement as a trump card to obtain… all the advantages they feel they deserve†(Christian Science Monitor).
The thesaurus resource does not have an adequate one word for it:
Main Entry: Trump Card
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: key advantage
Synonyms: ace in the hole, ace up one’s sleeve, card up one’s sleeve, key resource, leg up, secret weapon, trump, upper hand, whip hand
Source: Roget’s New Millenniumâ„¢ Thesaurus,
Main Entry: ace in the hole
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: hidden advantage
Synonyms: ace up one’s sleeve, card up one’s sleeve, decisive argument, decisive resource, reserve, secret advantage, secret weapon, sure advantage, Trump Card
Main Entry: last resort
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: desperate remedy
Synonyms: ace in the hole, card up one’s sleeve, dernier ressort, last expedient, last hope, last resource, pis aller, recourse, resort, Trump Card
Tiffany wrote, “I’ve asked him before to not respond to my comments but he refuses.”
Don’t mention me ever then either. I’ve seen you do it to others [it's like talking behind someones back - but in the open].
You still never addressed… Which sentence did Fred state what you stated he said.
Dell,
The fisrt law of thermodynamics is conservation of energy (ΔU=Q+W)
Causality (it’s own axiomatic Law in science) is linked by theory and observation to the second law of thermodynamics, which covers the flow of energy. Especialy heat and the property of entropy. It’s link the first law is more tennuous, in that if one does not accept Causality, one cannot explain or observe matter/energy conservation.
Speaking of the second law, Causality, and entropy. The larger (and more complex) the system, the less likely you can get the effect to reverse/undo by applying the inverse of the cause.
Etiology, on the other hand, is the study of the cause of things, esp disease.
I think most here can agree about the big details in root cause, but it seems to me ongoing factors and cures are where things get a bit murkey. And from many angles.
I said I wasn’t going to respond. Dammit, You’ve pi**ed me off.
I should have been more clear when I wrote that sentence. It should have said in two parts that:
1) You have the right to question anyone you want.
2) You don’t have the right to question my black experience and say it’s false because you aren’t black. You can’t question it because you have no frame of reference because you aren’t black.
That is what made me mad. You called me a liar and I didn’t appreciate that. But you are still a verbal trickster.
Dell my friend…
I simply cannot be a guest until/unless you can convince “T” that I have rights.
The use of the trump card and the flat controlling attitude (stating- I’ve asked him before… ) leads me to wonder if you can be a fair host after witnessing that and failing to help.
I’ll consider one day if I see a “consistent” change in your dealings with… (and not just the one person).
I am not trying to take a side here, but, I will say that anyone has the right to to question another’s: logic and the conclusions drawn from them.
Emotions, experiences and other subjectives, those are hard, if not impossible to question.
However, look above and tell me who is saying how an entire group thinks and behaves, and who is questioning an individual.
Tiffany wrote, “You don’t have the right to question my black experience”
Which sentence did I question your black experience. I simply asked which sentence of Fred’s (give us a link maybe) did he say what you stated he said. That’s all.
Tiffany wrote, “That is what made me mad.”
For what it’s worth Tiffany, I honestly don’t want you to be mad. I want to have a good conversation. I have a part in that failing. I have faith that someday we can get along just fine and I realize that I’ll have to change (also) to get to that point B. But before we get there, I’m thinking that there will be times when I can/want (to) question where someone stated what you said they stated. That’s all I wanted to do. I know I’ll have to ask it better but to flatly give me no room to ever ask anything shows me that there is some changing that is required on your part also.
To say that my mind is mildly turned on is an understatement at this point. Call me crazy.
Baklava:
Since you obviously can’t remember what you write (that’s what happens when you resort to trickery, you know) here it is:
Tiffany wrote, “It gets really frustrating to read that black people at 13% are the cause of/root of ALL of the problems in the United States of America.â€
Can you send me the link where Fred was saying that?
The reason why we question you and your perspective Tiffany is because it isn’t born of truth. I can feel that the grass is blue but it’s not.
I don’t know how to use an HTML tag to bold the sentence but it’s the one directly above this one.
My perspective is one of a black woman citizen of the United States. You called my perspective one that “isn’t born of truth”. So basically you called me a liar. That’s as plain as I can make it. If you can’t see that, then you clearly have your head up your rear end.
I do have quotes from some of Fred’s articles to post but I can’t right now. It will have to be after work.
“I think most here can agree about the big details in root cause, but it seems to me ongoing factors and cures are where things get a bit murkey. And from many angles. – SCSIâ€
I agree and I am glad you do to as it sets a premise for this discussion.
If we agree that on average each human grouping will respond to basic stimuli in similar if not identical ways over the course of time. Then my question for you becomes how is it that every statistical indicator of health, physical, social, and economic now, and historically, shows such a great disparity between blacks and whites. Etiology.
If we agree that biological averages over time equal out amongst various people groups and that differences are caused by external variables of some sort then you come to certain conclusions:
A) Black/white disparities are derived by blacks
B) Black/white disparities are derived by whites
C) Black/white disparities are derived by other American groupings or foreign influences
D) Black/white disparities are derived by a combination of the A, B or C
Now, if historically we can point to statistical disparities from the immediate time the Africans were here, better yet, were released from slavery, and we see similar statistics now in terms of actual gap. Letter is most likely to the variable causing disparity. If you choose a, which of A, B, or C is most likely to still be in play?
Tiffany pinpointed my disagreeable sentence, The reason why we question you and your perspective Tiffany is because it isn’t born of truth.
and the writes “My perspective is one of a black woman”
Tiffany, my questioning your perspective had nothing to do with you being black. It was with you as an individual. To let you know, I admit that my perspective is not 100% right either all the time. As an individual, I sometimes don’t state things correctly. If you put things as “my perspective is one of a black woman” and then give nobody the right to question that perspective then that is the “trump card”. I don’t have that in my pocket. People can always question me. I “feel” that I should be allowed to question people if they assert that someone stated something they didn’t say. It comes down to that to me. What Fred did or didn’t say.
I never wish for you to be offended as a black woman. I’d give you a hug and let you know my intentions were really about getting to the root of what Fred said and not questioning your blackness.
I sincerely hope we can actually have better conversations after today as I hope you realize that I’m not questioning your blackness. My words could’ve been different, but I do think that anyone has the right to question what anyone is saying if it differs from the source’s own words.
Dell wrote, “Bak – “rightsâ€? What are you talking about, you lost me?”
I guess I did…
TAKE COVER!!!!
You know, the “you don’t have the right to question my black experience because you’re not black” smacks of “it’s a black thing; you wouldn’t understand.” Could I or anybody else get away with “It’s a white thing; you wouldn’t understand”?
I think Fred raises an EXCELLENT point when he writes:
“Whatever the rights and wrongs, or possible historic inevitabilities, the result is that locals resent interference, but do not greatly upset themselves over the plight of blacks who, after all, live in America. From their point of view, American blacks have all the privileges and opportunities of gringos. What are they sniveling about?”
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, I suppose…
Some of the rants here remind me a lot of the rants that I heard after Bill Cosby made his remarks about black American society a few months ago. Instead of providing a reasoned, factual rebuttal, many of Cosby’s detractors immediately resorted to criticizing him for stating what a few would admit was true (but he shouldn’t have said it publicly!), or whining about how hard it is to be black in American in 2005, or just plain name-calling.
As Fred sez, this doesn’t exactly win a lot of friends.
“Because, methinks, whites (and Asians) are seriously fed up with the special privilege, the affirmative action, the blisterish sensitivity and racial hucksterism of…Who? I hesitate to say ‘of blacks’ because I don’t know how many blacks support it. But the blacks one hears of do. Anytime anyone says or does anything that displeases—again, do I mean ‘blacks’ or ‘Jesse’?—it becomes a national or international incident, whites cringe and cower and apologize desperately in hopes of keeping their jobs or offices. And so they delight when someone actually stands up, however briefly, to the hucksters.”
You may not like what Fred has to say. I don’t like what Jesse Jackson has to say.
Do as I do.
Don’t read it.
Lashawn, perhaps it’s just me, but it seems like you’re contradicting yourself. The other day, you were screaming about how offensive these stamps are, and today you’re praising a man who says they aren’t offensive at all. Care to clarify your position?
Tiffany wrote, “I don’t know how to use an HTML tag to bold the sentence but it’s the one directly above this one.”
Preceding the sentence you do the following:
[less than symbol]strong[greater than symbol]
After the sentence you do the following:
[less than symbol][forward slash]strong[greater than symbol]
The sentence will then be bolded.
Dell, I would never say I understand XXX because I have XXX friends.
I’m in bed by the time most folks out there are getting home to dinner, and getting up when the party crowd is just getting tossed out of the bars.
But if someone were to question my concern or compassion about XXX, I would likely point them to my XXX friends, and let them answer for me. Assuming I had XXX friends.
Now, say what you will about this, but I don’t call local talk radio, so I don’t know why I’d call Nebraskan radio
For the record. I never claimed I understood XXX because I have XXX friends either. Heck. I don’t understand Philipino issues and my daughters are half Philipino. Heck. I don’t even understand women issues and I work for a woman “program” in CA
JD – Praising? Strong word.
I agreed with Fred’s assessment about certain black Americans. At the same time, I think the stamps are offensive. No contradiction there. Now here’s the important part, so listen carefully. Unlike Jesse Jackson, I never called for an apology or for the stamps to be discontinued. Mexico can do whatever it wants. I am calling for an apology from illegal aliens and Vicente Fox, however, for flooding America with illegal aliens.
My opinion is that the exaggerated features on this cartoon character are an offensive caricature of blacks from the old blackface days.
Read my post again before you reply. You need to have your facts in order.
> Critics can’t call me a racist, though. Instead, they call me a “self-hater†because I believe that policy should be determined without regard to race, creed, color, sex, or national origin.
Fair enough LaShawn but how will you ensure that stuff like this is eliminated so that everyone is playing on a level playing field?
Sorry, these are the 2 links I tried to embed in my previous comment above (guess HTML features are not activated in this comment section):
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17felons.html?ex=1276660800&en=fd40636673fd6a3d&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=3439727
Who says the “playing field’ has to be level? And what does that mean? Before you answer, try to block out 40 years worth of social engineering fables that claim everybody must have the same stuff in order to be equal. No such thing ever existed in the history of the world, nor will it ever.
Each person has a different temperament, talents, motivation, and drive. Some are better at higher reasoning, others are better with their hands or physical strength. Some are larger, smaller, better, worse, smarter, and dumber than others.
Equality of opportunity is the key, not equality of outcome.
JD, I think everyone including La Shawn thinks the stamps are offensive.
What I read in La Shawn’s post that she like was this from Fred, “I believed that policy should be determined without regard to race, creed, color, sex, or national origin. I was called the merest liberal and perhaps a dangerous communist. Now, forty years later, I believe that policy should be determined without regard to race, creed, color, sex, or national origin.”
That falls in line with what La Shawn’s previous posts have said and what Ward Connerly has said and what I believe. I believe the stamps are offensive and I can’t understand any explanation of them. I believe Bush could use this as an opportunity to better relations but I haven’t heard him address the issue.
La Shawn wrote, “Equality of opportunity is the key, not equality of outcome.”
Wow is that the sentence to understand of the year. The government cannot guarantee equality of outcome and to try to do so would be to adopt communism. The government can only seek to implement equality of opportuntiy.
What that would mean is no preferences or discrimination based on race..
Proposisition 209 in CA was passed by a good majority and was actually allowed by the courts to be implemented. (CA Civil Rights Initiative by Ward Connerly – author of book Creating Equal).
Am I the only one that notices that when one group does something objectionable to another, and the group being hurt says they are offended, the perpetrators are the ones to say what they did is not offensive. Of course what they do isn’t offensive. It isn’t, of course, until someone does it to them.
And where exactly are all these snooty Black people refusing to work mininum wage jobs? I would like to meet them. Better yet, maybe your boy Fred can introduce me to a few since he seems to know so much about Black people. Funny how no one has a problem when the Jews still make noise about the Holocaust and how it effects them today, but when it comes to slavery and racism, Black folks should just shut up and get over it!
#35, Dell:
That would depend on the time frame in question.
For example, in the 19th century, I would say B, with a dose from E (that is a new one, being the african and european slavers who were in on the whole thing). The blacks that were slaves, at the time, held no ownership of the problem and few options for a solution.
Moving (way) forward, black ownership and empowerment grows. So does the ownership (by blacks) of black issues and solutions to them.
I won’t go so far as to say that today we are at option A, but we are far from B, so that likely puts us at D. But that D is, in my opinion, on it’s way to A.
Now, here’s my POV, and this is an admitedly shallow analogy.
If a man driving down the road and gets a flat and:
A) It was my fault. I left nails in the road, something like that. I would fix it.
B) It was my fault, but the there were signs saying there were nails in the road, so go carefully. I would fix it, but expect some help from the driver
C) It wasn’t my fault, the crew before me left nails in the road. Help him fix it, and see if I can’t get the other crew to chip in on cleanup.
D) Not my fault, I was an innocent bystander. I’d help the man fix it, but I wouldn’t do it all for him.
E) Not my road, not my nails, not my town, and the driver sits on the comittee that controls the roads. I’m a mensch and a Christian, so I would help if I could, but not if the driver wants to stay in the car, or just drives off into more nails he couldn’t be bothered to clean up while the tire was being changed.
Now, I am sure someone might be tempted to say something like the driver’s father built that road without compensation, so therefore if I benefit from the road I should fix the tire regardless. This is somewhat silly, as the driver also is benefiting from the road, and going down that path would limit the use of, or change the cost of use, for nearly everything in society. Irish and Chinese get a discount on train tickets, Italians and Mohawks on skyscrapers, Poles get a cheaper toll on bridges, etc.
#44, Bak: shshhhh
We don’t need to say it. We all think and act alike. Even though our family and personal backrounds are distinctively different.
Don’t ruin the meme.
“La Shawn wrote, “Equality of opportunity is the key, not equality of outcome.â€
What exactly does this mean?
There is no such thing as equality of opportunity, particularly if you study economics and free market systems. It is a quaint and cutesy statement, but in the real world is as worthless as a three dollar bill.
There are two kinds of capital, economic capital and human capital(education – formal/informal, ability and technical skills) and each of these determines your statistical average of ‘quality of life’ per se.
To have equality of opportunity
Equality – “sameness or equivalence in number, quantity, or measure”
Opportunity – “A chance for progress or advancement”
means fundamentally, the economic capital, and human capital are the same or equivalent for each individual and that these individuals have a similar or equivalent chance for progress and advancement as the next individual.
This isn’t an issue about race, so those who want to hop in on that tangent don’t…
The fact of the matter is this, no one controls the socio-economic background he/she is born into, which entails the schools you go to, or the positive or negative socialization that occurs in your life, meaning that ‘equality of opportunity’ is a statistical impossibility, because opportunity is determined by variables uncontrolled and external to the individual.
If there is a direct correlation between poverty and high pregnancy, crime, poor health care, lack of quality education etc. then do these individuals have the same opportunity for ‘progress and advancement’ as Bill Gates son who can afford a higher quality of human capital and is blessed with greater economic capital that lead to success in a competitively capitalistic ecomony (ask Milton Friedman)?
Hey, Jesus offered salvation to all people regardless of race, creed, color, sex, or national origin. Was he racist, then?
Shayne
Dell wrote, “The fact of the matter is this, no one controls the socio-economic background he/she is born into, which entails the schools you go to, or the positive or negative socialization that occurs in your life, meaning that ‘equality of opportunity’ is a statistical impossibility, ”
The question to you would be: Should my daughters have the same opportunity as someone from another races that goes to the same school? Given a GATE program (gifted and talented program) should my daughters be discriminated against or others be given preferential treatment to based on race?
It is obvious that doors of opportunity are not there for my daughters that are available to Bill Gates. What is imperative to understand for you Dell is that you have to compare two like individuals and then ask, “Given the same doors of opportunity can we now judge based on merit and not the color of their skin”.
Ward Connerly does allow for giving legs up (read preferential treatment) but NOT based on race. His prescription is for all Americans who are disadvantaged social-economically. Which makes sense. For as Ward identifies, there are people of all races in disadvantaged communities with poor and failing schools. It isn’t a race issue. It’s a problem solving issue.
To me anyways.
But what do I know. 
SCSI…
Interesting analogy, so let me work off of it.
In your scenario, a flat occurs which limits that car from moving to B from A. Let’s say our hypothetical A is relative equality to whites statistically (not metaphorically as most conservatives use it).
A is slavery, B is equality.
Now in slavery, the car moves not at all, because the people who control the gasoline supply refuse to fuel the car as they have no interest nor belief that blacks should be at destination B.
Finally, well meaning whites believed blacks should at least be able to have a chance, and the car gets on the road. However, this car is a yugo, and B (relative equality) is not a static point, but it is a point that is constantly progressing, as whites driving a Ford Prowler
keep moving forward.
So the Yugo is moving, but the Prowler is moving as well, so the relative distance between the two stays fairly constant even though the Yugo drives and sometimes pushes the when whites won’t sell him gas. So even when the drivers of the prowler take a break the driver of the Yugo keeps going, and thereby keeps the relative distance between himself and the prowler and point B constant but never materially decreases it.
Finally, the opportunity for gas at every stop is available, and the yugo gets traded in for a PT cruiser, however the relative distance is still the same as the driver of the PT takes breaks now when the Prowler takes breaks. So some of the riders on the PT Cruiser realize the futility of trying to catch the Prowler and stop what they are doing and camp out, being further left behind, while others still ride the PT Cruiser in hopes of catching the Prowler.
Economics is not a zero sum game, meaning as the American economy as a whole grows, theoretically it improves the quality of life for the whole. So the questions then become,
1. Should we evaluate black progress by the distance from A or by the closeness to B (relative gap)? Economically the percentage of ‘wealth’ owned by the African American is the exact same as it was immediately following the release of slavery.
And
2. Is the relative gap between blacks and whites a ‘black’ problem or is it an ‘American’ problem?
You speak of equal opportunity but the fact is that there are many minority owned companies or individuals who would have gotten an opportunity if not for Affirmative Action. Sure, I wish there wasn’t a need for AA or anti-discrimination laws, but it is evident that discrimination still takes place. As for preferences, there are all type of preferences that are taken into account that no one has a problem with except when it pertains to race when the fact is that there are doors closed to persons of color based on no factor other than race.
“Each person has a different temperament, talents, motivation, and drive. Some are better at higher reasoning; others are better with their hands or physical strength. Some are larger, smaller, better, worse, smarter, and dumber than others.”
So true. But not everyone begins at the same starting point and there is nothing wrong with providing some remedies for those are disadvantaged. The GI Bill, Student Loans, government set-aside programs and AA programs are some of the programs that were created to help.
Not to say that being black means that you are automatically disadvantaged, but it is a recognition that many minority owned companies and individual minorities may require assistance in gaining access to places once reserved for white people.
“Hey, Jesus offered salvation to all people regardless of race, creed, color, sex, or national origin. Was he racist, then? – Shayne”
Salvation was first to the Jews, so you tell me.
Baklava:
“Which makes sense. For as Ward identifies, there are people of all races in disadvantaged communities with poor and failing schools. It isn’t a race issue. It’s a problem solving issue.”
I agree, my Christian beliefs lead me to the ministering of all poor, although I have a special emphasis on my people first.
It is a problem solving issue, however, the problems that lead to disadvantaged whites and disadvantaged blacks as a group are different. Let me give you an example, I train entrepreneurs, and in marketing we determine demographics and the interests and drives of those demographics. It is how marketers market, I am going to market different to a teen than I would to a senior citizen. It is common sense. However, in modern education, the differences in ethnicity and group dynamics are not taken into consideration and instead a homogeneous socialization through education process occurs. In the ‘business world’ this would be akin to me trying to selling sketcher shoes and and halter tops to 65 plus year olds in a senior care center. Doesn’t make sense.
When you have a collective group of people that are statistically determined to have problems MUCH more severe than the average, doesn’t it behoove us as AMERICANS to address the particular needs of that ‘at risk’ population? Just a thought.
Dell wrote (# 35):
“If we agree that on average each human grouping will respond to basic stimuli in similar if not identical ways over the course of time. Then my question for you becomes how is it that every statistical indicator of health, physical, social, and economic now, and historically, shows such a great disparity between blacks and whites. Etiology.”
I don’t know; you tell me. Why is it that the a large fraction of white Southerners lived in much the same conditions as black Southerners for decades (sans the depredations of the Klan, obviously), yet manage to do better? How did the Irish or Chinese, despised when they first came to America, have done well?
Could it be that black Americans are doing better with each passing year? That what counts as ‘racism’ now would have been a welcome relief to black Americans of a hundred, fifty, or even thirty years ago?
“If we agree that biological averages over time equal out amongst various people groups and that differences are caused by external variables of some sort then you come to certain conclusions:
A) Black/white disparities are derived by blacks
B) Black/white disparities are derived by whites
C) Black/white disparities are derived by other American groupings or foreign influences
D) Black/white disparities are derived by a combination of the A, B or C”
I’m not sure that we can agree on the premise that all human beings are biologically identical at bottom. It strikes me that there would be more white players in professional sports if this were true.
However, looking at your list of causes, let me offer a couple of comments:
A) The leading cause of death in certain segments of the black American population is other black Americans.
B) No question about it. In the days of Jim Crow, it was white racists determined the keep black Americans as a permanent underclass. Today, it is white liberals who foster a victim mentality among many black Americans, leading them to believe that they can never change their wretched lot in life without massive government aid.
C) Obviously untrue. Until the past few decades, with some exceptions, non-white minorities have had little power or influence outside their own communities.
D) BINGO!
The $64,000 question is this:
What’s to be done?
One can lament until the ending of the world about disadvantageous socio-economic circumstances, the lingering effects of slavery and Jim Crow, ‘unconscious’ racism, or whatever, but it seems to me that this is a recipe for inaction. After all, if you can only play the hand you’re dealt, what’s the point of trying to play at all?
Dell wrote, “I agree, my Christian beliefs lead me to the ministering of all poor, although I have a special emphasis on my people first.”
Huh. If I were to say that openly (or even think it) not only would I rightly be admonished but I might even be held accountable…
… but I’m glad you agree with what Ward identified at least.
We live in a double-standard world, Bak. Only blacks can say they’re doing something for “their people.” When white folks say it, some blacks call you racists. I believe we all have same-race interests when it comes to certain things, but it’s politically correct only for minorities to say so.
The only legitimate interests whites get to have are supporting skin color preferences for blacks, issuing apologies for slavery and lynching, pretending we’re all equally qualified and accepting perversion as normal.
Sorry.
I’ve read Fred and read him from time to time.
Straight forward, blunt, and wrong on Black Americans because he paints the broad brush.
What no one has mentioned is that he believes in eugenics in the same way as Jared Taylor, on intellegence anyway.
Everytime La Shawn posts on racial issues, her comment board goes ballistic; same folk (black & white), same passions, same fingerpointing, same verbal grenades being lobbed……….
This affirms what I have intimately come to know about this unchanging divide and what this Fred guy describes in part as “…..the intense racial discord that quietly underlines American life…..”
Whenever my wife and I experience racism directed at us from BOTH races, we recognize it for what it is, Satan trying to do his best work.
Jesus Christ is our antidote.
Ya’ll have a nice war – carry on.
Dell, I’ll start with the obvious point first…
That, and you took the notion of a road and nothing else from my analogy.
The Prowler is a Daimler-Chrysler, not a Ford.
I find it interesting that you put the whites into a high end, impractical car. There are now, and have always been, more poor whites than poor blacks. As a result, I find your analogy lacking.
However, to compare all whites, as a monolithic group (which you do on a regular basis, Dell) also is a diservice. If they were, would there still be shoeless bukra in the Ozarks and other ‘quaint’ places? The circumstances under which the different waves of immigration faced, in economics, prejudice, language barriers were different for each group.
If you want to compare progress, try limiting it to a distince group or wave of immigration. I’ll concede that blacks could not marry into existing towns (and neither could the immigrants until a generation or 3 had passed, but they could with much more ease in the long run).
The other question, is when do you start measuring? From abolition? From the destruction of Jim Crow?
Should the comparison just be to european immigrants, or should asian, middleeastern, mezzo american and others be included as well?
Lets set the rules for the discussion, and then work within them.
As for you Jesus comment. You know better. Jesus came for all men. His only stipulation was that they sign on to a few rules, foremost opening their hearts to Him.
I went to Fred’s website and read at least 10 articles. I have to put him under the same umbrella with the other angry white men.
… The ones calling for no preferences or discrimination based on race…
Whew. That’s angry stuff.
The problem with Black people is that we worry too much about being “black” and “keepin’ it real” rather than just trying to be good AMERICANS!
Black is irrelevant.
Oh by the way, since it has been mentioned so much here. Let’s do some trivia.
Which political party constructed Jim Crow Laws?
A: DEMOCRAT
The first Ku Klux Klansmen were members of what party?
A: DEMOCRAT
Which party primarily wanted the slave trade to continue?
A: DEMOCRAT
Which party elected a Ku Klux Klan Grand Kleagle as the President of the Senate Pro Tempore and he was still serving well into the 1990s?
A: DEMOCRAT
Which party fillibustered the CIvil Rights and Voting Rights Acts?
A: DEMOCRAT
Which party boasts a president who claimed rabid segregationist J. William Fullbright as his friend and mentor?
A: DEMOCRAT
Which party ran a candidate whose father was a rabid racist and segregatinist in the 2004 election?
A: DEMOCRAT
Which party ran a candidate in 2004 who was sued by his Black Secret Servicemen for racial discrimination?
A: DEMOCRAT
Which party created the poverty imprisoning welfare state Black are trapped in?
A: DEMOCRAT
Shall I go on?
Can we strike Raymond’s comments La Shawn?
I’ll give James the point that Fred is angry. But about alot of things, and hardly on the since chord of race issues.
He’s what is called a curmudgeon.
Great comments, Dell. I wish I could get your call in program here in New Jersey.
Equality of Opportunity is an interesting concept. Let’s look at a recent job discrimination study by Princeton’s Devah Pager:
>>>“These were equivalent job applicants in every respect, with the exception of the fact that within certain teams we assigned one of the job applicants a felony conviction,†says Princeton sociologist Devah Pager.
After the testers applied to some 1,500 employers for 3,500 jobs as busboys, couriers, deli clerks and more, they found, according to the Pager: “The effect of race was just as large if not larger than the effect of a felony conviction. So blacks with NO criminal background were no more likely to receive a call back or a job offer than a white FELON. And it really suggests that being black in America today is equivalent to having a felony conviction.â€
…All things being equal, a black man with no criminal record was about half as likely to get the job as an equally qualified white man, and had the same, or slightly less of a chance of getting the job as a white man with a criminal record. That is despite laws making it illegal to discriminate on the basis of either race or criminal history in New York.”
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=6&aid=51561
In other words, the fix is still in, yet conservatives will tell you that eliminating Affirmative Action is the “answer” to ending discriminatory behavior against minorities in America.
I’ve read some of Fred’s stuff in the past. I wrote him off as just another angry old coot with a tack on his seat about one thing or another.
I find his racial commentary quite interesting.
>>>To begin with, Hispanics want to work. As a rule, blacks don’t.”
http://www.fredoneverything.net/HispanicsBlacks.shtml
You don’t subscribe to Fred’s rules on work, do you LaShawn?
–Cobra
Reply #70
There were several things that I read that just turned my stomach. You can call him what you will but I’m not feeling him or his take on black people.
Reply #68
Raymond, your statement is tired at best because I could come up with a list of things Repbulicans have done that were not in the interest of black people. And I can certainly list numerous people that claim the Republican Party that most Republicans you would not want associated with you.
In the end, I think the Democratic Party has worked in the interest of black people (for the most part). There are a lot of black people that simply don’t buy the policies offered by the Republican Party. I for one am open to ideas but so far all you’ve ever offered is to call me, and other black people that hold my political beliefs, victoms of a welfare state. That doesn’t carry and weight with me.
Baklava, why would you want to strike Raymond’s comments?
Did he write anything that wasn’t true?
Biased maybe with a definite POV. But false?
James manning – “And I can certainly list numerous people that claim the Republican Party that most Republicans you would not want associated with you.”
Yes you could but they wouldn’t be major players, or people approved of by the PARTY!
Tell me how a man WHO STARTED A KKK GROUP can still be in the Senate? And be a GREAT man of the party?
rather than just trying to be good AMERICANS!
1. Blacks have been a part of every war this country has been in.
2. Blacks join the service in proportions that are higher than the general population.
3. Even accounting for the few number of spies this country has found since the 70s, Black spies are lower than their representation with access to secret material. So far, that I know of, two: one a lust filled marine, the other a lonely woman suckered by a spy.
Your rhetoric is racial fire bombs that falls under the weight of inspection.
Tell me how a man WHO STARTED A KKK GROUP can still be in the Senate? And be a GREAT man of the party?
The same way Jesse Helms, who came to fame with television editorials against desegregation laws, was a major player in the Republican party.
Dan,
Because he wrote, “The problem with Black people is that we worry too much about being “black†and “keepin’ it real†rather than just trying to be good AMERICANS!”
I am consistently against people being racist. You might say that about me. I think Raymond does a disservice and I think he is a liberal plant.
I don’t have a problem with is list. It’s his opening paragraph that reeks. Don’t tell me you would’ve/could’ve written that Dan?
Ironically, Walter Williams has an op-ed in today’s Washington Times entitled Victimhood:Rhetoric or Reality?. His opinions along with that of Thomas Sowell’s always shed light. The link is:
http://insider.washingtontimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20050704-113819-8193r
Requires registration, but it’s free.
Doggone it! Why do I always catch these discussions when they are already well advanced?
I much enjoy Fred Reed, both on his own website and on Lew Rockwell.
James Manning: Don’t be too sure about the Democrats being on the Black man’s side. They are dedicated to advancing their Bolshevist program, which, if completed, will bring untold misery to ALL real Americans. As for the Republicans, they will sell-out any of their supposed principles, and the American Middle class, for either political advantage or to make a fast buck for themselves or their well-heeled friends. The higher one goes in the Republican power structure the more one will find a lack of true patriotism.
It is true that there is hardly a dime’s worth of difference between the two, but I still am more inclined towards the Republicans, at least at the lower levels.
COWS
Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that our government
can track a cow born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall
where she sleeps in the state of Washington. And they tracked her calves
to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 11 million illegal aliens
wandering around our country.
Maybe we should give them each a cow.
CONSTITUTION
They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don’t we
just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it’s
>worked for over 200 years and we’re not using it anymore.
COMMANDMENTS
Want to know the real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in
a Courthouse? You cannot post “Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Thou Shalt Not
Commit Adultery” and “Thou Shall Not Lie” in a building full of lawyers,
judges and politicians! It creates a hostile working environment.
Jesse Helms: Being a “major player” is entirely different than a party ACTIVELY supporting, voting for and placing a KU KLUX KLANSMAN (A RECRUITER (Grand Kleagle)in position to be an iconic LEADER of our most sacred legislative body. Jesse Helms on the otherhand became a de facto leader because the PEOPLE supported him, and believed his conservative views but the GOP was not crazy enough to actually vote for him for a Senate leadership position.
In the case of Sen. Robert “Sheets” Byrd, the Democrats literally spit in the face of their most loyal voting block by doing this and no one in the House, the Black “leadership” or so-called civil rights orgs said a word in protest.
Black people accepted this slap in the face simply because the Dem-O-Kratz be gibben us stuff and we don’t wont to upset massa.
Correction: “…2000 election”
James Manning: Please make you case to the contrary. Give us you list and lets have a civil debate on the topic.
I still stand on the historical record of the Democrat Party NOT being the friend it so claims to be to Blacks.
I submit that the Party of the Jackass has done an OUTSTANDING long term indoctrination job on our people. They have by design made us dependent, kept us dependent and trained our minds to think we should be taken care of by a white “big brother.” A “big brother” who FEARS us becoming educated, self aware and subsequently economically independent and less angry.
Democrats through “black overseers” like Jesse, Al, Tavis Smiley, The Congressional Black Caucus and other self-appointed black “leaders” have kept us fat and happy with enough gubmint subsistence that we don’t step off the plantation and we don’t have the will to believe in the concept of hard work, self-determination and personal responsibility.
Why do you think Black Republicans and Conservatives are so reviled by Democrat party leadership? The reason is simple. Because they (we)dared to step off the plantation and do for self and actually COMPETE with the massa.
Why do you think blacks in the mythical “black community” hate us so much? It is because they have not been taught the concept of doing for self and think that because we have gotten LUCKY and “made it” we somehow OWE the rest a handout and a gimme so they can be “down” too. Totally ignoring what it took for us to get where we are.
The old “crabs in a bucket mentality.”
Dell,
WRT #54, please explain how the parable of the 10 talents, or 5 talents, jibes with your concept of equal opportunity?
WRT #59 “Salvation was first to the Jews, so you tell me.”
Did they teach you in Divinity school that God choose Abraham because he was a Jew? Explain then how Rahab and other Gentiles in B.C. were accepted into eternal salvation.
Sometimes I wonder about your theology and if you shouldn’t ask for a refund.
And so, the divisive war of words goes deep into the night.
About that comic character, all I can say is that, yeah, from a black American POV, it could be construed as offensive in light of our own history, but from a multi-culti POV it ain’t but a thing. Especially in Africa, where black Americans are typically regarded as white.
I recall growing up with Asterix the Gaul, Lucky Luke, Tin-Tin and that comic book series of these sort of tigers with a super long prehensile tail, that were popular around the world, including Africa, that would set most here on edge with their depiction of blacks. It would appear to still be popular as I still see them on the racks or in the hands of kids whenever I travel.
In a nutshell, most Americans are indeed overly sensitive thanks to the constant drumbeat of race-victimism. Granted, there are caricatures designed to be mean-spirited, a la Ted Rall, Oliphant et al and then there’s caricatures of ethinic sterotypes. I guess the truth would be in the story line and character development.
Andy,
I wondered the same thing when I read ““Salvation was first to the Jews, so you tell me.—
But I don’t have his degrees….
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