“One should not confuse Jews or Christians with Judeo-Christian values. Many Jews and many Christians, including many sincerely religious ones, take certain positions that are contrary to Judeo-Christian values (which I have defined at length: In a nutshell, they are Old Testament values as mediated by Christians, especially American Christians).
One clear example is the death penalty for murderers. Many Jews and Christians believe that all murderers should be kept alive, that it is not only wrong to take the life of any murderer; it is actually un-Jewish or un-Christian.”
— Dennis Prager, Murderers must die: Judeo-Christian values: Part XVIII
1. Better answers: The case for Judeo-Christian values
2. The case for Judeo-Christian values: Part II
3. Judeo-Christian values: part III
4. The case for Judeo-Christian values: Part IV
5. The case for Judeo-Christian values: Part V
6. Liberal feeling vs. Judeo-Christian values: Part VI
7. Hate evil: Case for Judeo-Christian values, Part VII
8. Judeo-Christian values are larger than Judaism or Christianity, Part VIII
9. Choose life: The case for Judeo-Christian values: Part IX
10. The Left’s battle to restore chaos: Judeo-Christian values: Part X
11. Moral absolutes: Judeo-Christian values: Part XI
12. The Jews have a mission: Judeo-Christian values: Part XII
13. Secularism and the meaningless life: Judeo-Christian values: Part XIII
14. The arrogance of values: Judeo-Christian values, Part XIV
15. We are not just animals: Judeo-Christian values part XV
16. Nature must not be worshipped: Judeo-Christian values, Part XVI
17. Without man, the environment is insignificant (Part XVII)
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That’s a question you need to ask Dennis Prager. He answered an e-mail I sent, so he may get back to you. – Admin
Isn’t it remarkable how secularists and others try to use the guise of Judeo-Christian values to condemn us for actually reading our Bible and living according to the scriptures?
Biblical ignorance and Biblical manipulation are two weapons which we must continually re-arm ourselves against. That’s why we are entrusted to seek out the Word daily.
Even Jesus supported the death penalty. He never protested the Jewish law concerning blasphemy that was used to justify His execution. He never fought the practice that killed even Him.
He said “…they know not what they do.” in reference to wrongly applying that law in His case.
Reading the Bible… what a concept? Maybe it has to be tranlated to ebonics to understand what it says
Seriously though, the OT and NT talk about what happens to nations that do not punish for wrong doing (but again, you would have to read it to know this).
Two thumbs up for Chris’s comment #2
Given the documented injustices in the U.S. court system, I still can’t comprehend anyone who supports the U.S. implementation of the death penalty.
I can’t support death when there is a credible chance that the justice system produced a wrong result.
Wow, that is a lot of links, but I am actually interested in reading them and providing a thoughtful response. I hope this thread doesn’t die because of its religious nature.
I would find it interesting LaShawn, if people stated what they believe about the bible in terms of its reliability, accuracy and interpretation and how the Word matches up with their political philosophy. I know you are an Evangelical, as am I with slight modifications. I wonder what everyone else is.
Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed.
33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left.
34Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
35The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One.”
36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”
38There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]”
43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour,
45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.
46Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
47The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.”
48When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.
49But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.
PS. I hate the term Judeo-Christian values, as an evangelical, the premise of morality remains the same but my dispensationalist views require me to view the New Covenant as a different dispensation than the Law.
It should simple be, Christian values, leaving off the Judeo. They aren’t saved and under the New Covenant.
Darkstar, I don’t understand the point you’re making. Though having already stated that you are against the death penalty in the US system, and I can understand why, I must point out the fact that Jesus at no point argued for the release of those condemned men.
How do you respond to the situation like that of Jeffrey Dahmer, where not only is there a confession but also incontrovertible evidence of 1st degree murder? In this sort of case the fallabilities of the justice system aren’t such an influence.
Mark, I make no claim that the death penality is not supported by the Bible. I can’t comprehend how, even if supported, how people can support it when an innocent life stands a probable chance of being taken.
For the example that you brought up, as long as there exists chances that an innocent person — or innocent of the crime — can be killed, I can’t support it.
I can’t comprehend how the death penalty by both religious fiat and government edict was supported when it was used to exceute John the Baptist, Jesus, Stephen, Peter and on and on. Yet the so-called victims called it a blessing to be sent home.
In the midst of NT persecution, we’re reminded that God gave authority to the government to put the sword of justice to his subjects.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Look at it this way, DarkStar.
*Adam and Eve were evicted from the Garden of Eden and the curse of death place upon them and their seed.
*Job was sorely & personally tested by God, even tho he had done no wrong.
*David sent Uriah to his death in order to add Bathsheba to his harem.
*Parable of Rich man and Lazarus — God became angry at the Rich man and said tonite thou shall surely die.
*We’re also told that the blessings of rain falls on the wicked and righteous alike and that ultimately no harm befalls man w/o God’s consent
With that in mind, then it’s plain to see that even tho the process may be flawed, nonetheless, God’s day of judgement has come upon the condemned. If not for the sword of justice, God has other ways of taking you out of this world when He has had enough of one’s wickedness OR when He’s ready to send one on to Glory.
In this context, it’s not a question of fairness in worldly justice being meted out, it’s a question of being ready for eternity as you aptly pointed out in your reference to the crucifiction scene. The answer is REPENT!
Now that doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to ensure justice is just & fair. But it does require that we be consistent and sober when weighing one’s ultimate punishment. I have no problem with going the extra mile to use DNA to determine guilt. I do have a problem with endless appeals.
If we as a people decide that those currently on death row must pass/fail the DNA test where possible and for all whose DNA is unavailable be commuted to a life sentence, so be it. But we need to be consistent — ie, a life for a life IAW the laws laid out in advance. If the law is not consistent across the board, then it isn’t fair.
Errm, in my 1st paragraph; “I can’t comprehend how… is messed up — what I get for changing course in mid-stream.
Better if it had read: “For those who can’t comprehend … Consider this, the so-called victims called it a blessing to be sent home.”
La Shawn,
I’ve read many of his pieces already and it’s how I believe. I also listen to him on the radio.
He was exceptional in informing pacifists in the months after 9/11 that their position was immoral.
Now that doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to ensure justice is just & fair.
Our system is not just and fair. In theory I agree with what you posted. The reality is another matter.
Is crime lower in the states that have the death penalty, as opposed to the states that do not have the death penalty? —No!
DS, that’s something we can and should work on.
Kathy, is crime lower in states that have the right to carry concealed weapons? –Yes!
That is a defacto death penalty in the hands of civilians, do not pass justice system. As it should be.
“Mark, I make no claim that the death penality is not supported by the Bible. I can’t comprehend how, even if supported, how people can support it when an innocent life stands a probable chance of being taken.
For the example that you brought up, as long as there exists chances that an innocent person — or innocent of the crime — can be killed, I can’t support it.”
~There is not, nor will there be, any perfect judiciary system run by men. Until the return of Christ there will always be the chance that the innocent will be punished. Let me change that: it will continue that sometimes men WILL be punished for crimes that they didn’t commit. In light of that one might say that the death penalty should be abolished worldwide. However, that would require looking straight into the face of God (via His Scriptures) and telling Him that what He has called for is wrong.
I don’t want the weight of correcting the Almighty on my shoulders. I have in my life been punished, once even beaten by police, for things I didn’t do. I want reform in the system, but I still believe that the punishment should fit the crime. Life is the most precious possesion, so it’s malicious taking must require the highest penalty, one that is unmatched by other penalties.
I was not one of the people who campaigned to see Carla Fay(e) Tucker pulled off death row because she became a Christian. Despite coming to life she still had to pay for her crime, as did the thief crucified alongside Jesus who recognized His Godhood.
I consider myself an evengelical christian. I believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God and in the truth of the Bible.
Overall, I think this lines up with the conservative position on most issues, but I’m more in the middle with issues relating to prisons. The left doesn’t believe in enough justice, the right doesn’t believe in enough mercy, and many on both sides don’t believe that you need to change prisoners’ hearts through Jesus Christ.
On issues of “social justice” I think this lines up well if you interpret the passages to mean individuals and Churches should be doing the work, not government.
Well said, Mark.
I have had a long, and sad, absence from reading this blog (and a spotty record in posting to my own blog). I am overjoyed to see this topic upon my return!
The Left consistently makes faulty stereotyped assumptions about Christianity, and often about religion in general. They have a template about Christians and that template is Dominion Theology–the belief that Christians seek a union of spiritual and temporal power according to the Old Testament civil laws.
This belief is completely and entirely antithetical to scripture and a very small number hold to it today. Yet this is the label with which we are constantly painted. In the Left’s fever-laden nightmares, we wish to impose our religion on unbelievers to create an Earthly Christian Utopia. Christ’s kingdom is spiritual, in the hearts of men, and has always suffered damage when man has attempted to co-opt temporal power. In fact, this is an outright rejection of Christ’s power, Christ’s kingdom, and Christ’s methods (the foolishness of preaching) for spreading the Gospel.
There are many wise ideas in Old Testament civil law but we are in no way obligated to enact them. They belong to the Old Testament state of Israel. While the New Testament church is unified with the Old Testament church, God has forever dissolved the church/state friendship that marked that age.
Our duty as American citizens is to ensure that our government does not overstep it’s boundaries to guarantee “quiet and peaceable lives” for its citizens. That doesn’t mean moral dictation from the Central Government.
The little-known Eleventh Commandment:
“The Sixth Commandment is hereby repealed.”
Little-known FunTed is a clueless troll
I think Mark encapsulated the argument quite well.
“It all depends on what your definition of ’shalt’ is.” — Dennis “Bill” Prager
Well this is one Christian (albeit not a strong one) that has never doubted Capital punishment is wrong……if I had my druthers, people like Charlie Manson would have been dead a long long time ago……It is perfectly scriptural to put to death murderers……liberal ‘christians’ seem to badly misunderstand what forgiveness entails and what it does not entail……One can be forgiven their murderous sins by Christ but that NEVER precludes the consquences of our Sin……even sin forgiven….
You and he are both right.
Great post and this is a great time for all of us to consider this issue as we look toward the Senate and their hearing about a new SC justice. Issues like this are the ones that have LONG term impact on our nation.
Thanks for the great work and the comments.
We threw a link & post up and we hope our visitors come by for a visit as it would be benefical for them.
http://www.team-swap.com/wordpress/2005/07/20/justice-the-death-penelty/
FunTed,
Thou shalt not kill..
Right, but that is to the individual. Once the INDIVIDUAL breaks this commandment, it is up to the Judicial system to apply punishment, and this includes the death penalty.
Mark made great comments, as have Andy and others.
Man is prone to errors, and God knows this. I simply can NOT take the chance that I’m wrong and let a man (or woman) slip thru and still have a life after taking the lives of others ON PURPOSE.
I suppose the gentleman (and I use the term gentleman scornfully here) in Idaho who killed the family, kidnapped and molested the kids and boasted about killing the family (probably before killing the boy) should be just put in jail forever in your eyes…Nah…I think he should be removed from our world immediately and sent to judgement. *shrug* I can’t fathom you wanting to keep this man alive.
Personally, I can understand opposing the death penalty on the grounds that the system is too flawed to ensure innocents aren’t killed. I don’t agree with it, though I agree that the system has issues that need fixing.
But I do get a little pissy when the Bible or Jesus get invoked to argue against capital punishment. Just like I hate hearing about the evolved Europeans that don’t kill their murderers to keep blood off the state’s hands…
Yep, France celebrates Ira Einhorn and Mumia, but turns around kills protestors in Ivory Coast. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so tragic.
Ann Coulter agrees with Raymond.
I don’t know why everyone on the right is getting so excited about Bush’s new SC Justice nominee. We don’t know at all how this dude is going to rule on any particular case. He just doesn’t have a long enough track record for any conclusions to be drawn. Now don’t get me wrong. I think not having a long track record could be a good thing, but I must emphasize the word “could.”
This pick reminds me of the Florida Gators picking Urban Meyer to be their new head coach. He has a decent background and has demonstrated some ability and he seems to please most of the Gator Nation faithful, BUT the fact of the matter is that Urban has not coached a down, not even one in the Mighty Southeatern Conference of NCAA Division 1 football.
Like Meyer, Roberts is about to be in the big leagues and with that power comes one of two things. Being able to remain sane, handle it and do what you are hired to do and still serve those whom you were tapped to serve is up in the air. Until Judge Roberts rules and offers opinion on his first case, we have ZERO idea what he may turn out to be.
He may not turn out to be an unqualifed, activist moron Like Ginsburg and her cronies, but he could turn out to be at the least as bad as the Wishy-Washy girl of no conviction, Sandy O, Connor.
Actually the death penalty for murder goes back beyond Judeo-Christian values to the covenant with Noah, which is made with all mankind and therefore applies to every nation and state and those who abandon it are under its judgment.
See my posting The Death Penalty Part I and Part II.
It stripped out the links – http://beyondtherim.meisheid.com/index.php?p=239 for Part I and http://beyondtherim.meisheid.com/index.php?p=247 for Part II.
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