Three London Underground stations were evacuated at midday Thursday following reports of incidents, British Transport Police said. The Fire Brigade was investigating a report of smoke at one station….Emergency services also were responding to a report of an incident on a bus in east London, police said….
McCracken said he smelled smoke at the Warren Street station, and people were panicking and coming into his carriage. He said he spoke to an Italian man who was comforting a woman after the evacuation.
“He said that a man was carrying a rucksack and the rucksack suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack,” McCracken said.
“The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong. At that point everyone rushed from the carriage.” (Source)
If only authorities would stop and search Middle Eastern-looking men with backpacks headed for public transit systems, they could prevent most of these suicide bombings. But they’d rather feel me up in the airport than “offend” homicidal Muslim maniacs.
Whether the men in this scenario turn out to be of Middle Eastern background or not, the previous statement still holds. I just wanted to say that before naysayers start soiling the blog with pro-Islamofascist talk.
Good luck with all that, Tony! Ignore the real issue at your countrymen’s peril.
Check Athena.
Previous post: Terror in London?
Also see the BBC, FOX News, CNN…
Bloggers: She Who Will Be Obeyed, Civil Commotion, Uncle Sam’s Cabin, Guardian Unlimited news blog, Rhymes With Right, Ankle Biting Pundits, Michelle Malkin, Backcountry Conservative, Wizbang, Blogs of War, Secure Liberty, The Command Post, Captain Ed, Tim Worstall, Wires from the Bunker, The Anchoress…
Update (10:05 a.m.): According to FOX, a black or Asian (?) bearded man with wires protruding from his body was being chased.
From the Washington Post:
The emergency coincided with a service to commemorate those killed by bombs detonated by four young British Muslims in three underground trains and a bus at morning rush hour, killing more than 50 people and shocking a capital that had hitherto been spared al Qaeda-style attacks on civilians. That attack confronted Britain’s people and politicians with the prospect the country could be nurturing its own generation of the type of Islamist militants loyal to Osama bin Laden who had already inflicted carnage in the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, in Bali and on Madrid’s suburban trains last year. (Emphasis added)
The British cops just arrested some clown. I didn’t get a look at him. I hear a brit twit talking about “civil liberties.” In the middle of a terrorist attack. Unbelievable.
Update II (10:37 a.m.): I just heard on FOX that an undetonated “device” is still onboard a bus.
Tony Blair is speaking, and I hear no anger in his voice. He’s stuttering, and his voice is soft. He sounds like a bureaucrat instead of a man in charge of a country attacked by Islamofascists for the second time in two weeks. Blair is a fool.
“These evil acts are based on the perversion of Islam,” he stutters.
Update III (4:14 p.m.): I’ll track down a link for verification, but I just heard that NY will conduct random backpack searches. Random backpack searches. They know exactly the type of person to search: young, male, and Arab-looking. But they’ll stop you, white American man minding your own business, and you, black woman visiting from Arkansas. (link)
I guess random 5-year-old girls need to make sure those pink Barbie backpacks are free of contraband. And 80-year-old Granny had better give it up, or she’ll be in a world of hurt.
The United States will be hit again. Brace yourselves.
Update IV (5:45 p.m.): Two bozos were arrested in connection to the attack. The article leaves out a few important details.
Dumbest and most understated headline of the year: Second Attack on London Stirs Worries.
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“If only authorities would stop and search Middle Eastern-looking men with backpacks headed for public transit systems”
Jamaicans too.
La Shawn:
Ditto on weak willed Brits.
They haven’t been hit hard enough.
They would rather die to prove their moral superiority (rather, let others die – the British aristocracy doesn’t have to take trains).
In Shreveport, some 50 year old Black female judge was “patted down”at the airport.
I am unaware of an American Bladk woman who has blown herself up at an airport. And you certainly don’t look like a terrorist.
Not quite. Look at the 7/7 attacks on London public transport. Three of the bombers were of Pakistani (and thus Asian) origin, and one was a black man of Jamaican origin. Only stopping Middle-Eastern-looking men doesn’t address matters, in the British situation. Better for the British intelligence services to get on the ball and track folks (e.g., they had once surveilled one of the 7/7 guys, but then determined that he wasn’t a threat).
I predict more busting of heads in the muslim enclaves is about to begin. Hopefully, they will be doing it to their own bad seeds. though I doubt it.
Britain has allowed so many immigrants/refugees into the country, it would be impossible to stop and search them all the time.
The best thing Britain could do, and it is racist, is to deport every Muslim of foreign descent. Then people of middle-east origin would stick out like sore thumbs.
The British public never asked for or wanted immigration. They have every right to keep their country the way they want it to be. Like the US, a liberal elite has opened the country up to people who are not the same. Those who will not assimilate, those who don’t value western ideals. It could get a lot worse, as modern Muslims seem to foam at the mouth at the slightest perception of injustice.
“…they’d rather feel me up in the airport than ‘offend’ homicidal Muslim maniacs.”
I’m just guessing, but the desire of a male airport security guard to feel you up (rather than any Muslim man) may be motivated by more universal, basic, human urgings than a desire to be politically correct.
“I’m just guessing, but the desire of a male airport security guard to feel you up (rather than any Muslim man) may be motivated by more universal, basic, human urgings than a desire to be politically correct.” – Classic…
Hummmm…I wonder why they are feeling me up then
All we like sheep, led astray by PC namby-pambies
Methinks it’s just a mater of time that the sheep will decide that they won’t be fooled again and take action themselves. That day won’t be pretty.
Islam’s days in America are numbered. It will soon be relegated as it should be to enemy cult status. The silence coming from the ilamic community is deafening.
They have made their point. They are the enemy within and so be it. We will treat them that way. Since muslims don’t preach peace, I will assume they don’t want it. Fine. The United States of America has never lost a war and we won’t lose this one.
US Politicians: You are on notice. Either fight these fools by jailing (apply the Sedition Acts), deporting or killing them or go home and sit down and will elect someone who will. It is that simple.
I have had my fill of islam and its lies. Enough.
How long do you think it will be before the MSM blames the latest London bombings on Karl Rove?
The Muslim Sedition Act of 2005
——————————————————————————–
An Act in addition to the act, entitled “An act for the punishment of certain crimes against the United States. ”
SEC. I Be it enacted . . ., That if any practitioners of the cult of Islam shall unlawfully combine or conspire together, with intent to oppose any measure or measures of the government of the United States, which are or shall be directed by proper authority, or to impede the operation of any law of the United States, or to intimidate or prevent any person holding a place or office in or under the government of the United States, from undertaking, performing or executing his trust or duty; and if any Muslim or Muslims, with intent as aforesaid, shall counsel, advise or attempt to procure any insurrection, riot. unlawful assembly, or combination, whether such conspiracy, threatening, counsel, advice, or attempt shall have the proposed effect or not, he or they shall be deemed guilty of a high felony, and on conviction, before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding 5 million dollars, and by imprisonment during a term not less than 25 years nor exceeding five life.
SEC. 2. That if any Muslim or Islam sympathizer shall write, print, utter. Or publish, or shall cause or procure to be written, printed, uttered or published, or shall knowingly and willingly assist or aid in writing, printing, uttering or publishing any false, scandalous and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States, or either house of the Congress of the United States, or the President of the United States, with intent to defame the said government, or either house of the said Congress, or the said President, or to bring them. or either of them, into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against them, or either or any of them, the hatred of the good people of the United States, or to excite any unlawful combinations therein, for opposing or resisting any law of the United States, or any act of the President of the United States, done in pursuance of any such law, or of the powers in him vested by the constitution of the United States, or to resist, oppose, or defeat any such law or act, or to aid, encourage or abet any hostile designs of any foreign nation against the United States, their people or government, then such person, being thereof convicted before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding 5 million dollars, and by imprisonment not exceeding life.
SEC. 3. That if any person shall be prosecuted under this act, for the writing or publishing any libel aforesaid, it shall be lawful for the defendant, upon the trial of the cause, to give in evidence in his defence, the truth of the matter contained in the publication charged as a libel. And the jury who shall try the cause, shall have a right to determine the law and the fact, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.
SEC. 4. That this act shall continue to be in force until Jesus returns and no longer….
‘You can kill your enemy with a thousand small cuts’
Islam an Ideology of conquest, convert, enslave and/or death to re-install the Global Caliphate.
Islam comes in many flavors, colors, sizes, shapes.
Islam and it’s followers the moo-slimes must be interned then deported to the hellhole of their choice. If the insanity which is Islam is so beautiful, why do the moo-slimes seek to mingle among the sane.
9-11-01 caused me to research/learn the ‘roots’ of these moo-slime murders and their moderate moo-slime supporters, which taught me my enemy. When the time comes and our homeland suffers through another bloody murderous attack, ‘Annie get your guns’.
M&M Watch = Mosque, Moo-slime watch. Murders hidding behind the veil of a supposed religion. We must keep an eye on them, from the babe in the crib to the one next to you in the check out line. Thank you for allowing me to speak in your longhouse.
LaShawn and friends;
Keep being politically incorrect! It’s like a breath of fresh air. Tancredo’s remarks simply established perameters for consequences of heinous actions. Enforcing consequences is ultimately compassionate for everyone. Removing them simply ensures that more people suffer and die…..Why can’t liberals get this fundamental concept through their heads? How many more people will die at the altar of the politically correct? How many more people will be maimed?
Yep, I think the camel’s back has snapped. Now watch the will of the Mighty American work!
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/
Has the following title on her blog:
More Bombing Attacks on London?: Gee, I Wonder Whether Samoans Did it
Part of Debbie’s bio says this:
Schlussel, who speaks Hebrew, Arabic, French, and Russian, works closely with several Federal law enforcement agencies, consulting on fighting the domestic War on Terrorism, and has provided them with much useful information. She has gone undercover, infiltrating many Muslim organizations in the Detroit area (the heart of Islamic America),
I forgot to mention in my list a couple weeks ago that she’s one I frequent for opinion and fact.
just a question – will we be applying the same standard to actors of domestic terrorism? Those who bomb churches in the Black Community, those who bomb abortion clinics and those who blow up buildings in US cities?
JB, Eric Rudolph is getting life in jail after plea bargaining to inform authorities where other explosives were to not get the death penalty.
Answer to your question then. Heck yes. End of that wonderment.
Just a response: The next time “we” hear about such acts, we’ll let you know. Until then, Islamofascism is a much more pressing concern not just for the U.S., but the whole planet. Do me a favor: keep the focus where it belongs today and don’t get distracted by “those” who burn black churches, some of whom turn out to be black.
JB,
I noticed your list didn’t include the majority of terror incidents in the last decade:
Enviro nut terrorism.
Go see Michelle Malkin’s page for a list of these incidents in the last decade.
“Perversion of Islam”…
that’s an interresting way to put what is actually LAWFUL according to the Islamic Holy text (rolling eyes)
Minor O/T: Renee in VA, which Renee are you? The new one? Thanks.
“Perversion of Islam”…….another one of those maddening oxymorons. Islam is perversion. Heck, that’s not even definitive. The “bowel movement sub-human satanism” is more apropos.
Re: commment #1 (and #3) on searching Jamaicans
Exactly, Actus & Molotov. So maybe they would need to keep “feeling you up” (please!) since you could pass for Jamaican, Lashawn.
FYI: also “Asian” in England typically refers to those of SE Asian descent: Pakatsani, Indian, Bengali etc., not necessarily Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc.
Re: comment #2
> Ditto on weak willed Brits.
> They haven’t been hit hard enough.
Er… are you actually advocating more terrorist attacks?! Doesn’t sound very “Christian” to me.
And as for “weak-willed” Brits they have done a better job of rounding up those responsible for their 7/7(/05) attack two weeks ago than the US has for 9/11 attacks from nearly four years ago now. Where’s Bin Laden again? Apparently hiding out in Fallujah or Baghdad somewhere according to where the current primary front on the war of terror is being prosecuted.
Don’t know who you are and don’t care, but I don’t like this comment. Don’t be surprised if subsequent comments are deleted. And what, may I ask, do you know about what’s “Christian?” Did you learn it from the MSM or a matchbook cover, perhaps? Until you read the Bible (Old AND New Testaments), don’t try that on this blog. You’ve been warned. – Admin
JB, You must be selectively reading the news. In the last few weeks, an abortion facility bomber, Eric Rudolph, was jailed for life, and the murderer of three civil rights activist was jailed. And, I haven’t seen Timothy McVeigh out for a stroll to get a Starbucks lately. Meanwhile, members of the Weathermen Underground have tenured positions at faculties across the US, cop killers are idolized, ‘Ward Churchills’ spew their hate at universities all across the US, and we are a breeding ground for terrorism and anarchy. So, get off the fixation about black churches…and victimization, and look at the very real problems facing the world.
H/T Michelle Malkin. Read CNN’s “Like Father, Like Son” interview with Mohammed Atta’s rich father who spells it out for the clueless:
“El-Amir said the attacks in the United States and the July 7 attacks in London were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son.
He declared that terror cells around the world were a “nuclear bomb that has now been activated and is ticking.””
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/07/19/atta.father.terror/index.html
Any questions about the so-called MAD nuclear option? I didn’t think so.
ian, since you know nothing about christianity, kindly refrain from displaying your ignorance about what “sounds very christian”.
IIRC, we rounded up a bunch locally after 9/11 but you and your ilk screamed about tolerance and civil rights. I notice that since then, some of who we’ve rounded up are still detained. I’ll expect we can begin to dispense with them in the next SCOTUS session.
Also grabbing someone in Egypt is not the same as grabbing someone in the “wild, wild West” of Afghanistan/Pakistan.
Seems to me we’ve been doing plenty of grabbing in other countries until the Old Gray Hag leaked classified information about the CIA’s Detainee Airline.
And your point was what again?
“Amateurs,” maybe. But terrorism, nonetheless.
Maybe Pakinstan’s President has some good advice…
Dell,
You’re an atractive man, deal with it. I won’t step any closer to the obvious “on the down low” jokes.
Ian, While you’re offtrack overall, you are correct, that asian to brits means east of Iraq, north of the equator. The folks most americans call asian, brits are more likely to call oriental.
PS ian, the FBI is monitoring your ilk, just a FYI:
“The ACLU breathlessly announced the FBI had accumulated 1,173 pages of documents related to its own activity and more than 3,000 pages on Greenpeace, which came to light after the ACLU filed a Freedom of Information Act request. Other far-Left groups the FBI allegedly monitored include United for Peace and Justice, Code Pink, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, and perhaps 100 additional left-wing and Islamist organizations. Immediately, the ACLU accused the feds of spying on “peaceful†organizations “exercising their First Amendment rights.—
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18828
These continued attacks could have the effect that the masterminds intended: an all out war between the West and all of Islam. The only way that the path can be altered is for those who say that Islam is a “religion of peace” to be accounted for and take action. They must become full partners in the WOT. Otherwise they will be deemed as accomplices and face a growing backlash from Britain and elsewhere.
In any case, a crackdown on the Wahhabi led mosques is in short order.
Perhaps time for our cozy relationship with Saudi Arabia to end?
For Domestic terrorism by the left read Michelle’s column:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin072005.php3
Front Page Mag has it’s listing of leftist terrorism including $600,000 given by Code Pink to fighters in Fallujah:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18828
or here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/17/nbest17.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/17/ixhome.html
or here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071502181.html
Nah, it’s me Andy (the old one). After someone elese posted as Renee yesterday, I put in VA behind my name…
I guess I will say “Renee the Sarcastic One”
or something like that
Chris Roberts said, “Perhaps time for our cozy relationship with Saudi Arabia to end?”
I agree.
VA is for lovers…
LOL
I am “feeling the luv” (or is it “lub” these days)..here
I wonder if all these leftist terrorists would call themselves atheists?
I grew up (for 21 years) in VA. Now I’m CA. But my twin sister is still in VA.
Not the names of the places bombed:
* Sheperd’s Bush Hammersmith
* Oval
* Warren Street
* Hackney Road
Bush? Oval Office? “W” as in Warren? Hackney as in trite?
Could the Islamofascists be sending a message? This has the makings of the plotline of a B-list thriller movie.
Coincidence? I don’t think so.
-Michael McCullough (Stingray blogsite)
The Asians that Brits refer to are those people from the Indian sub-continent, that is the countries of India, Pakistan & Bangladesh, which at one time were all called India. These are the people who have emigrated to Britain in large numbers.
If these bombings are un-Islamic, would Mr. Blair hold a rucksack given to him by Muslim? More interestingly, would Mr. Blair like to use the London Underground? Or catch a London bus?
I’m glad it’s the internet, otherwise someone saying “Old” Renee would have to get popped.
Double-check the quote because I didn’t say it. I was responding on behalf of someone else. Instead of bothering me, why don’t you get a rousing discussion going on your own blog? Good luck with the “debate.” And please don’t attempt to comment again, or I’ll have to block you. – Admin
Addendum to my last comment: I do apologise for the “feeling you up” comment. That was inappropiate but I was trying to make the point that simply searching everyone of Arab or Middle Eastern descent is not only infeasbile and probably a waste of time, it wouldn’t solve the problem of preventing future terrorist acts when you have non-Arab people like Germaine Lindsay and “shoe bomber” Richard Reid committing atrocities also.
Apology accepted. Now go away. – Admin
Chris #51
Me too
If it’s any consolation, everybody gets felt up in the airport most places. In India, they’re so thorough about it that they have separate for “Ladies” and “Gents”.
I don’t think searching anybody of color with a backpack will work for two reasons. Explosives can just as easily be strapped to the body and there are just too many people of color riding public transportation in London, and for that matter New York and Chicago for it to be practacle. It would virtually shut down the tubes.
How about explosive sniffing dogs?
You all should have heard the guy sitting in for Neal boortz today. He hit the nail on the head as far as how to deal with muslims and their brand of terror. He parroted something I said long ago. Even before 9/11. Here are the outstanding points he made (of course this will never happen with the spineless brand of Republicans we have in power now):
- That the muslim world should be warned that the next terrorist attack on any civilian or soldier will cost the muslim word 5 arab cities with one of them being Mecca (nuclear weapons preferably)
- Harry Truman told the world he would drop atomic bombs on Japan until they either surrendered or there was no Japan. It worked and 500,000 to 1,000,000 American soldier’s lives were saved. Japanese “innocent” lives were saved as well.
- We should apply the same standard to muslims. If a US soldiers even breaks a ring finger due to a muslim attack, the arab world who created, nurtures and promotes the terrible evil that is islam will pay a terrible price. He went on to say that even though our enemy wears no uniform, he hails and is supported by the arab states and thus they will have to either get active in stopping the madness or suffer the ultimate wrath of a fed up people and be permanently erased from the face of the planet.
I don’t think he actually meant use nukes due to the fallout issue, but a few 100 well placed FAEs would do the trick.
No more passes for islam. As for the bleeding heart liberals. Don’t get so upset because the solution could be worse……I could be President!
Raymond that is just ridiculous, and a logically fallacious argument.
1. Japan WAS A COUNTRY…Islamofacism is a faction.
2. You advocate killing individuals who may be distant, or completely sympathetic to America’s position, or even allies, for the sake of an abstract theory of deterrence.
3. America is not an isolated Island, isolationism went out the door in the early 1900’s. The economy is global, oil is at its core, you disrupt that and you do damage to America’s economic stability as well as American advocates. Just saying ‘let’s kill em all, it will fix the problem’ is a knee jerk reactionary position which doesn’t consider ALL the implications. You are good for that though.
4. Again, there are 1 Billion practioners of Islam in virtually every country in the world. Do you seriously think America could gain the allied support to engage in a true religious war, which is what you are attempting to make it into?
All the guts in the world don’t make up for a lack of brains.
Also, I don’t think you know what ‘conservative’ means when you obviously attempt to try to identify yourself as that. Swing by the site and I will educate you.
Solutions:
1. We kill and keep killing the people we know are trying to kill us.
2. We continue to export democracy through propaganda, and other means. Democracy is sustained through capitalism and free market trade, and vice-versa, which is contrarian to totalitarianism. If you create new markets and economic realiance on those markets, there will be a greater desire for democracy and a resistance to totalitarianism that Islamo-facism fights for. Money runs the world.
3. We increase on ground intelligence, and utilize strategic assasinations to destablize faction leadership.
4. We do a better job on our own borders. As LaShawn has routinely discussed, you can not passively allow illegal aliens because they boost corporate profit and not expect bad seeds to come through with the ‘good’ (if you want to call them that) seeds.
5. We increase our military spending, particularly in the areas of A) recruitment, B)Advanced intelligent technology, and create some form of specific counter terrorism division.
6. We proactively go in and improve or establish positions in future hot beds of destabilization, such as certain areas of Africa and other countries.
7. We improve local agencies UNDER THE BOUNDS OF THE CONSTITUTION to enable them to better monitor potential local sleeper cells.
——
Precisions nukes and religious warfare is absolutely and utterly idiotic. It is unwinnable, impractible, and suicidal. Any restriction of consititution rights, and USA driven totalitarianism is unacceptable as well. IF you are a real conservative.
Raymond,
Guy’s like you and I are now labeled as “reverse-jihader’s” (over at Dell’s) because of the comments we make on a this “neo con” site that he visits.
It’s all good. I answered the call to defend this country (and got called even worse when I got back from Vietnam).
I did it to protect the civil liberties of America, including those who are all mouth and no spine when it comes to defending against our enemies now.
I totally agree with this post! We should be cracking down on any potential terrorists! Its the only way we can show them who’s boss, whether they’re muslim, white extremist christians or enviroterrorists. Every muslim, white male or hippy should be stripsearched every time they are in public. Read the Bible! The true lord is a vengeful creator.
Dave pullease…if you can see me, I am rolling me eyes in 720 degrees at your rhetoric and hyperbole.
Stuff like, ‘you don’t want to defend your country’, ‘you don’t have guts’, ‘your cowards’, is rookie, highschool baiting stuff.
The fact is your arguments are irrational and do nothing to defend this country but put it, and the system that drives it, capitalism, in peril. You make ridiculous statements without considering the systemic impacts of the position you advocate.
BTW…I appreciate you serving in Nam…much respect…
But simply proving we have the bigger bomb doesn’t work, as everyone has big bombs. You guy’s arguments remind me of playing chicken in cars where both drivers have the guts to go all the way. In the end, both drivers end up with their brains disseminated amongst cracked glass and broken auto parts.
Dell is another of those apologist pseudo-intllectuals who spend more time discussing problems and nuancing them instead of solving them. I ignore people like him. We have a mission to undertake and as for killing terrorists not solving the problem? Hmmmmmm. It sure would make me happier and a happier America is a more properous America.
I think Dell needs the “fire ant” analogy read to him so hear we go. This is so simple it might be over his head.
You see Dell, muslims are like fire ants. The build and grow and infest and overtake until someone is eventually bitten by one or more of them. Now after you are bitten, you must decide if you are going to kill the one who bit you or look just for him if you miss OR you can seek out where they live and kill them all and destroy their homes and then treat the areas where they live so they can never return and finally, you make sure the queen who inspires their actions is dead! Simple.
Raymond
Formerly of 3rd Battalion/75th Ranger Regiment, Ft. Benning, GA
CIB Operation Desert Storm
Victory is only achieved when the rate of enemy death and his body count exceeds your own. At some point his will and ability to fight will be eradicated as well. He then has two options. Fight on and be completely eliminated or surrender to the terms of peace as dictated by the victorious entity.
Any insurgents who remain are to be mopped up as they appear and put down just as quickly. Simple.
If you do not believe you can defeat an enemy, you won’t. This is how liberals think.
We do not need to understand our enemies. Only which class of superior ordinance works best at shattering his war making ability.
Dell,
You are the one who chose to drag my comments over to your site, put (in your words) a “rookie high school baiting” inflammatory “label” on me and go on and on with voluminous commentary that’s supposed to impress us all that you have all the answers.
I suggest you put on a uniform, go face the enemy as so many of us have and try and “reason” with them with “words and philosophy.”
Dell wrote, “2. You advocate killing individuals who may be distant, or completely sympathetic to America’s position, or even allies, for the sake of an abstract theory of deterrence.”
FDR and Eisenhower and many earlier presidents and long standing world history point to the effectiveness of completely leaving ALL options on the table and sometimes carrying them out to really remove the will of any nation to carry forth with their low-intensity battle or even medium grade intensity battle. When Germany sank commercial ships here and there we made it clear that it won’t be happening any more and Germany didn’t listen. It led to bombings of Dresden. When Japan did not cease the fighting in led to the bombings of cities. In many other wars besides WW2, complete blockades, seizures of towns, much “collateral” damage was done in order to make the war cease.
You simply cannot make a perfect blame-free war. It just won’t happen.
While I’m not saying we should do this tomorrow (no need to talk anyone out of it), I do think it’s a perfectly legitimate option to leave on the table for a response to our cities being nuked. It’s a deterrent. If you don’t think it is then state what you think is a deterrent to keep them from nuking our cities…
Dell,
Logicaly fallacious? What brand? Ad hominem? Straw man? Denying the antecendent? Red Herring? Non-sequitur? What is the fallacy? Better still, what do you think my premise was?
Do you know? It is quite simpe.
It’s not a matter of showing who has the bigger bomb. It’s a matter of deterring people from even nuking our cities in the first place.
What do you suggest we say we’ll do in response to Islamofacists nuking our cities?
Yep, the time for political correctness has to stop. Our founding fathers did not anticipate the world today. We most likely will have to lose some freedom of movement, but my feeling is, if you haven’t done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Anybody who has a problem with that can just sit down and shut up.
Oh, yeah, almost forgot, was listening to Glenn Beck today (usually don’t listen to radio talk shows), he said if the good Muslims don’t speak out against the bad Muslims, they need to be deported and I agree. (but it still doesn’t mean I’m a conservative)
Chuck,
I have to disagree a bit my friend. WE do not have to lose any freedoms. The more of them that are erased, the more freely we can move about and do what we always have.
If I have to lose one iota of freedom to not worry about a filthy terrorist then I’d rather have a few terrorists running around. Taking freedoms is a slippery slope that once slid down, you cannot climb back up.
Being an American means living with risk!
Chuck, you listen to sane people enough (talk radio) and you may find out that you are more normal (conservative) than you give yourself credit for.
Some leading Sunni Clerics in England issued a Fatwa condeming the London bombings yesterday. It was in the Oregonian this morning. I just don’t know how many of the UKs moslems are Sunni and Shia and Wahadi don’t have to listen to it.
In case of a nuke set off on US soil we’d probably be justified in leveling a city. We don’t even need to use a nuke. The MOAB that the airforce tested in 2003 will level a city. But which one? Not Mecca, because that would be declaring war on every muslem in the world. And if it does get to be an all out holy war, we loose.
IaintBacchus,
The MOAB that the airforce tested in 2003 had less destructional force and more wider surface area incineration capability.
In other words, it wouldn’t put much of a crater in the ground but it would take out all of the ground vegetation in an area 6 football fields large. Good for leveling a drug crop or killing a # of soldiers but not good for bunker busting or leveling a structure.
And again. Tom Tancredo never mentioned nuking…
Australian PM Howard bitch slaps those who would blame us. Read the whole thing here. A few money quotes:
Can I just say very directly, Paul, on the issue of the policies of my government and indeed the policies of the British and American governments on Iraq, that the first point of reference is that once a country allows its foreign policy to be determined by terrorism, it’s given the game away, to use the vernacular.
Can I remind you that the murder of 88 Australians in Bali took place before the operation in Iraq.
And I remind you that the 11th of September occurred before the operation in Iraq.
Can I also remind you that the very first occasion that bin Laden specifically referred to Australia was in the context of Australia’s involvement in liberating the people of East Timor. Are people by implication suggesting we shouldn’t have done that?
When a group claimed responsibility on the website for the attacks on the 7th of July, they talked about British policy not just in Iraq, but in Afghanistan. Are people suggesting we shouldn’t be in Afghanistan?
Thus the nickname Daisycutter.
1) British pols need votes, and their citizens of middle-eastern descent get to vote too, so any policy that focusses on that group will carry a penalty for the politicians that espouse it. That might explain their reluctance to, say, round up brown citizens and intern them in camps.
2) Question: Say they did that – came down hard on all young male middle-easterners in London. And say there were another bombing. what then? All Pakistani citizens? How about if a caucasian were caught doing it? Round up everybody? And who is to say a smart terrorist won’t trick an old lady or a little girl into carrying his bomb around? You think they have too many scruples, or what?
It is certainly not as easy to do police work in a free country than it is in a dictatorship.
Your solution? How about this. Let’s just blow up the planet and get it over with. That way, NOBODY will be around to blame ANYONE for ANYTHING. – Admin
BTW, We’ll probably never level Mecca. There would be no strategery in doing so.
The point is (that Dell and IaintBacchus are missing) is that nothing should be off the table as we should always maintain that all options are on the table in a response to a nuking of our city. Deterrence. If you don’t agree that it is deterrent then that is the end of the discussion. Nobody is going to bomb Mecca. Sheesh.
Baklava, thanks for directing me to Debbie Schlussel.
Just as you would keep all options on the table as far as protecting your family, you should keep all options on the table as far as protecting the country.
The terrorists certainly have all their options to destroy us on the table.
There’s no question about Afghanistan. They were housing international mass murders and wouldn’t give them up when asked.
Australia went into East Timor to stop a genuine genocide. Another perfectly acceptible act.
But that doesn’t really matter because nobody is accusing Al Quaeda of having rational reasons for what they do, anyway.
My problem with invading Iraq is I don’t think it’s doing anything to stop Islamofacism. As a matter of fact, now it looks like the new Iraqi government is going to be best pals with Iran and that’s just going to make things worse.
If the worst case scenario plays out, ie 50 suitcase nukes planted in our biggest cities and detonated at once, Mecca just might turn to glass. Assume your the Captain of a US boomer, and your port city, where your family and the families of all your crew mates live, has just been destroyed, along with your country. What would you do?
I’ve got nothing against deterrance. it worked for 50 years of the cold war. I just don’t want anything to broaden this conflict.
What makes you think that any of these terrorists care what happens to a few thousand innocent bystanders?
Sick, rich, charismatic sociopaths like Bin Laden are always going to be able to find young men who are willing to die for their cause. The penalty for that needs to be that the leaders who plan these things die publicly and humiliatingly and preferrably at the hands of an Islamic government.
That’s the only deterrent thats going to work in the long run.
Maybe 100 nukes in the general vicinty of Bin Laden will do the trick. That option would be on the table. Then nobody would want him in their city.
Lets see…
10 square miles times 100 = 1,000 square miles. That’s a 33 mile by 33 mile area… There is an option on the table for ya.
NY Girl.
No problem. She’s one tough cookie. La Shawn for President and Debbie for Vice President.
DreamTeam.
Michelle Malkin for Secretary of State.
Rancher #80.
Good point. Brings to mind the latest information we’ve understood about the Soviet submarines with the nuclear tipped torpedoes during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That brings chills to my spine on how close we were.
When you get on the Ellis Island/Statue of Liberty ferry, everything is searched, they even make you take your belt off. Sorry Raymond, I have to reiterate, if you not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. It’s not really about losing freedom, it’s more about being a little inconvenienced. I was stationed in Germany in the 80’s and had to worry about attacks by German terrorists. Some spots were off limits to soldiers for our protection and if you had a car, you had to check it for bombs. I had to show my ID to get on post. I didn’t mind the extra protection.
I couldn’t listen to talk shows all day, I think I’d lose my mind. Besides, I like listening to music too much, anyway I can get all my info on blogs when I’m home.
Bush and his supporters should be ecstatic about the bombings in London, it makes Bush’s strategy of “fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them here” appear to be working.
Someone should have told Blair that for Bush “here” means only the U.S.A.
I guess we can now add London as another front in the war on terror.
Chuck,
Seek out Michael Medved and Dennis Prager for more stimulating talk. It’s not the same ole.
Michael brings on liberals to his show for complete hours and completely dismantles their argument. I like that. Every week he’ll also have a disagreement day and will be wall to wall liberal argument dismantled. He knows his history.
Baklava #83. I like the way you think.
You & I can start up the Draft La Shawn coallition
Meade #86,
Nobody ever said that 100% will be there and 0% will be here.
Reading comprehension is key.
The jist is staying on offense, keeping the enemy engaged as much as possible, freeing a nation from tyranny, making an ally in the war on terror (a democracy), having a geographically good post in the middle east to aid in the war with other warring countries…
We have to be able to thwart 100% of attacks (not doable) and they only have to be able to carry out 1 attack (out of 100 tried – very doable).
Nobody claimed that it’d be a 0% strike in our homeland. Can you point to that quote and person who said it? Reading comprehension is key now.
I meant to write, “keeping the enemy engaged as much as possible somewhere else”..
NY Girl # 88,
She’ll probably have to be governor first. VA needs her… Right Renee?
Alternatives to nuking Mecca. http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/007241.php#more
Rancher,
Tom Tancredo didn’t say we should threaten to “nuke” Mecca.
He used the word bomb. And of course there are many alternatives. It wasn’t put as the only thing we should threaten excluding other ideas.
Baklava
Point taken.
That’s right… we need something
Alternatives to driving.
http://www.transcoalition.org/ia/altd.html
Didn’t you guys hear a single word Michael Moore said? THERE IS NO TERRORIST THREAT! I mean, come on! So a few buses and subway cars blew up. Big whoop. I saw Siegfried & Roy slice a woman into 7 pieces and then put her back together again, too. It’s all smoke & mirrors folks. A grand illusion designed to incite fear so you’ll support Bush’s illegal and immoral war for oil.
Siegfried & Roy should be ashamed of themselves.
Rancher #94,
Baklava #91 That last one was for you
I understood.
Me smarter than you thinks.
You’ll want to be in La Shawn’s cabinet I’m sure.
Oh yeah. And my sister works in Richmond, VA. She’ll be easily pursuadable to change jobs!
Did you read the NYPD policy on bag checking? Not only will they not profile, but:
“People who do not submit to a search will be allowed to leave, but will not be permitted into the subway station.”
Just because they bombed subways in London doesn’t mean they won’t bomb parks & restaurants in NYC, or London for that matter.
And what are they hiding that they won’t want to be searched?
Heck. My bags are searched when I bring my kids to Sunsplash in Roseville, CA. And it’s not random. Everyone’s bag is searched.
Exactly.
Chuck, being inconvenienced is a whole other issue. That is not what you said. I can tolerate reasonable inconvenience, but not losing ANY constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.
All this back and forth reminds me of Spaceballs:
“I see your schwartz is as big as mine”
Dell-
You make some good points, and as I am aware of it, it happens to be our present policy (with exception to the immigration/border control issue).
Having a nuke deterrent is great, but we are increasingly facing an enemy without nations. So who exactly do we point the nukes at? “Nuke Mecca” as a deterrent, while it sounds good in theory, is probably bad in application.
You can pick up one of the best solutions by heading over to GameStop or BestBuy and buying Tom Clancy’s Splinter Cell or Rainbow 6. Play the game and you will see what we should do. We need to continue to deploy covert teams worldwide and take these guys out.
Raymond, I misspoke. I really meant inconvenienced to begin with. My brain in not functioning properly. I have to go see my doctor tomorrow to see if she can get the wax out of my ears.
Baklava, I’ve read Michael Medved and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says about our culture. Never heard or read Dennis Prager. I’ll do a search.
I beg your pardon, Chris Roberts, but our enemy does have a nation: Nation = “ethnos” from where we get ethnicity.
As La Shawn points out, rather than continue with the solemn foolery of “random searches”, violating the privacy of Black women from Arkansas or Irish priests from Chicago, we ought to be focusing on those most likely; and those of Middle East extraction ought to accept this as a condition for living in the West (with apologies to Jamie Farr and Joseph Farah).
“It seems to me a certainty that the fatalistic teachings of Mohammed and the utter degradation of the Arab women are the outstanding causes for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have been developing.” — Gen. George S. Patton
Meet the new “Renee in VA, same as the old “Renee”. Well, I guess I won’t get fooled again.
I see Liberal Larry is giving Joe Carter a rest, or is that the fake LL?
LL, I suppose MM’s Roger & Me is the gospel truth and the unions had nothing to do with running Flint into receivership by killing their golden goose.
Bak, a minor edification.
MOAB (21K+ lbs gross/18K+ lbs of tritonal explosive — indefinite shelf life) is half again as large as the Vietnam-era daisy-cutter (15K+ lbs gross/12K+ lbs of GSX–GSX is less powerful than tritonal)
MOAB is Da Bomb.
Fool you once huh Andy
If the NYC subway random bag checks are run any way like the random special security checks at airports, I’m sure I’ll get singled out a couple times a week at least (over 40, department store business dress, computer bag, white, female, slight limp from arthritis).
I won’t mind the inconvenience but I will mind knowing that because of political correctness we can’t focus our resources on those who match the profile of the people who are demonstrably most likely to do us harm.
New Yorker Worker-The police commissioner was on Hannity and Colmes and he pretty much validated your statement in his answer about “random checks” and no profiling unless someone is acting suspicious (you gotta luv that proactive stance).
Lucky for the 9-11 bombers (and those of their ilk)… they didn’t act to suspicious at the airports
The 9/11 terrorists fit the profile of drug runners: cash for tickets and/or credit card purchase for a group of tickets for and/or one way walk up tickets.
All race/ethnicity neutral.
Am I in error, or is there “Draft La Shawn” fever going around in this thread?
If so, I hope it’s catching! A Condi Rice/La Shawn Barber ticket in ‘08 would be unbeatable.
Now, let’s work on getting Janice Brown as Chief Justice on the SCOTUS!
I think some folks might be missing the point of an attack on Mecca. Although I have heard several strategic reasons for doing so, the only convincing argument is to demolish the Ka’ba, which is assured by Allah to be unassailable, and a proof of the validity of the Islamic faith. The theory is that this would strike a devastating blow to the religion and remove most of the momentum in the Jihadist movement.
Whether that would actually happen, I don’t know. If so, it should be done immediately. We managed to crush the Japanese belief in divine protection by a successful attack on their homeland.
Mr. Slater-
Glad you clarified the etymology for me. Perhaps I would have been better off saying nation-state. I will research my words a little more carefully next time.
If you want to know my view on profiling in this matter (I’m pro), perhaps you should peruse my own work at my site by clicking on my name. Just pondering, for philosophical inquiry, what happens when the other team starts using non-Arabs? Are we far enough along in our planning to counter their next move. I sure hope so.
If you want to talk about bombs, this “problem” doesn’t need a nuke strike, either. The inviolability of Islam as you are speaking about can be solved by demolishing the shrine, right? We can solve the that with a couple of JDAM’s dropped from a B-2. Not that I’m ready to bomb Mecca just yet, but we have been chatting quite effusively about it today, so that’s my 2 cents worth when it comes to bombs.
Chuck #109,
Dennis has talk shows and a website. Very prolific writer, he is an excellent one to follow. Hat’s off Bak, good suggestions (Medved and Prager).
Renee; old, new or Va doesn’t matter to me. I still love reading your posts.
What’s the point of traveling now, unless you’re forced to for business? Who wants to go thru the hassle? I flew from Austin to Houston last Christmas and was held in the search line along with an late-middle aged Black woman with a prosthetic leg. They made the poor woman take off the leg! And in front of everyone in the terminal! She was gracious about it, but it was wrong and completely embarrassing. All this to go from Austin to Houston on a 45 minute flight. Geez.
Only 60% of Londoners are “white British.” Good luck profiling everyone you don’t like the looks of. That would be about what, 3 million people you can chase after?
As Islamofascists are making a sport of bombing London, you’re the one who needs the luck. – Admin
Did anyone hear Bush’s comments yesterday…
Supposedly he said “the terrorist are highjacking a great religion” or something of that nature …(I have to find a transcript)…
#123 3 million people? I call that a “target rich environment.”
Chuck. Oh ok. I was hoping that is what you meant.
Profiling: The terrorist’s friend.
Profiling is an advantage to terrorists, because it is predictable. It quickly becomes obvious who is being targeted for searches, and then it is simple for the real terrorists to make themselves look different. And since most manpower is being tied up in profile-based searching, the real terrorists are less likely to be caught.
Random searches are the biggest problem for terrorists, because there is no reliable way to avoid them. If even 80-year old grandmothers are being searched, what can you do to make your agents safe? Moreover, a high frequency of random searches will create a high level of “noise” that can conceal a lower level of “targeted” searches directed at individuals who are suspected of terrorist involvement. Were you searched because they are on to you? Or was it just another random search?
First we harass the middle-easterners, then the blacks, then the Jews.
Ahhh, Freedom.
Since the London bombers were actually British citizens, it’s worth looking at why they were so susceptible to foreign (Islamofascist) recuitment. After all, if a North Korean or Iranian zealot approached you and asked if you’d like to suicide bomb yourself in public, you’d immediately report them to the authorities. Why didn’t the London bombers do that?
Part of the reason is that Britain is still a class-based society. They have hierarchical structures that are virtually impregnable, depending on your race, family history, economic status, place of birth, occupation, and so forth. We even have a bit of that here in America, but we have far more mobility up (and down) the social ladder.
So anyway, in the overall scheme of things, a “wog” is just about the very worst thing you can be in England. Whether you’re Indian, Pakistani, or black, you’ll find numerous barriers erected against your full participation in society. Unless you’re incredibly wealthy, second-class citizen is about the best you can achieve. For good or ill, that’s just how it is.
Thus even though those Brits were raised as members of their society, they never really identified with it, and that’s why they were vulnerable to Islamic jihadism. In a sense, they were getting even at a society that rejected them.
Something to keep in mind during these discussions about profiling, internment, and deportation of the innocent. Paradoxically, many of our vulnerabilities are also sources of our greatest strength. Indeed, our tolerance of those who differ from us, our equality of opportunity, and our projected confidence and pride in ourselves makes it tougher for terrorists to find legions of ready recruits on our shores.
Robert, The Blacks and the Jews have already had their turns. Its the muslims’ turn.
Robert wrote, “First we harass the middle-easterners, then the blacks, then the Jews.”
Don’t know why you used the word harass. It’s called searching the backpacks. We could do it as civilly and calmly and quickly as possible. I submit to searches of my backpack when I go to the state fair and Sunsplash here in CA. I never once said to someone. I’m being harassed.
Mwalimu Daudi, #118, want to sign up?
New Yorker Worker #115, I know excactly what you mean.
“I submit to searches of my backpack when I go to the state fair and Sunsplash here in CA. I never once said to someone. I’m being harassed.”
No. you’re consenting. If the searches are equally consensual, no problem.
La Shawn…tried to track back to you on this, but for some reason it wouldn’t let me.
No. Actually, my solution wouldn’t be to just kill everybody. Is that the only alternative you can find? Either round up an entire ethnic group, or, failing that, kill everybody? How about professional, responsible police work? You may not get to cheer at as many public humiliations and executions, but it has worked well where it has been tried. You know, the ultimate test of a government policy is not that it makes people punch the air and shout slogans. There are objective measures of whether something works or not.
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