8/22/05 — Michael Graham was fired.
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“Islam is a terror organization.”
The Roots of Islamic Terrorism:
The nature of the terrorist threat is unambiguously Islamic and is not so much a deviation from Muslim tradition as an appeal to it. Al Qaeda’s ideology draws on two traditions to legitimize itself: one classical, the other modern.Regarding classical Islam, the oft-quoted remark that Islam is a religion of peace is false. It is historically illiterate to claim that war is foreign to Islam and it is theologically uninformed to argue that jihad is merely a personal inner struggle with no external military correlate.
The Crisis of Islam book review:
A Middle East expert, Lewis proffers that Americans are puzzled by this venomous sentiment because their general level of historical knowledge is “abysmally low.†Muslims, however, are defined by their history: who they are, where they came from, and what they perceive as God’s purpose for their lives. “For [Osama] bin Laden, his declaration of war against the United States marks the resumption of the struggle for religious dominance of the world that began in the seventh century,†Lewis writes.For example, to the Middle East, President Bush is just a successor in a long line of rulers — from the Byzantine emperors of Constantinople, the Holy Roman Emperors in Vienna, Queen Victoria, and other European imperialists — who are serious impediments to the divinely ordained expansion of Islam, merely delaying its inevitable conquest. Without understanding how important history is to followers of Islam and how important it should be to Americans, the confusion will continue.
Update: Brits turned down our request to arrest one of the London bombing suspects a month ago. See ThoughtsOnline.
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I agree, Mr. Graham. It is a terrorist organization.
Of great concern should be how much harm will we incur upon the election of the next liberal president who sees the media line as the way to go in dealing with this threat.
Cheer up, Mark. It’s much worse than you think.
Even if the next president is a Republican, if he’s not conservative, unafraid of MSM or what others say about him, passionately pro-America, and equally passionate about stamping out the scourge of Islamofascism and sealing the borders, John Kerry may as well be sitting in the White House.
In war it’s OK to hate your enemy right? If locked in a fight to the death is it permissable to curse your opponent?
Yet I get the feeling that if someone were to stand up and declare, “I HATE ISLAM and ALL THAT IT STANDS FOR,” they would be crucified! I am looking forward to the day that we are actually allowed to take the fight to islam. To destroy all evidence that this “faith” ever existed! It is a cancer on humanity-much like communism-and once we truly understand this fact we may finally realize that it’s OK to “prune” the religion bush from time to time. Just because some pedo-killer decided to invent a philosophy to justify his own failure doesn’t mean we have to accept it! Let’s all be aware enough to have the ability to say NO to islam! No to the Imams and Mullahs! No to the politicians who tell us we’re too stupid to understand islam.
I mean, if this religion is really so important to It’s people maybe our politicians can explain why all symbols of Christianity must be removed from OUR children’s lives?
Go pajamazon go!
Overtly ridiculous and juvenile comments like this will not be posted. Try again. – Admin
Michael Graham writes:
“…. Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf…. (has) called for a jihad against the jihadists. He’s putting his life on the line (Islamists have tried to assassinate him three times) in the battle to reclaim Islam and its fundamental decency.
He remembers, I’m sure, that at a time when Western, Christian civilization was on the verge of collapse, the Muslim world was a bastion of rationalism and tolerance. That was a great moment in the history of Islam, a moment that helped save the West.”
Musharraf is trying to do in Pakistan what Ataturk did in Turkey and what Sadat and now Mubarak have tried to do in Egypt. Each recognizes the value of being modern states and the need to combat the poison of the charismatics within their states who want only a theocratic oligarchy such as Iran has.
Graham’s words ring very true about Islam and Muslims in general. It will finally take an uprising from within to kill this jihad serpent.
Iran is one place where we keep hoping the populace who have tasted the benefits of modernity will finally topple the theocracy.
Of course, Saudi Arabia is the key to radical Islam with its flow of funding and tacit support of hate and disorder.
One interesting aside to what is going on now with the terrorists is that they are “rich kids” in comparison with the average Muslim. You can’t get much richer than the family that brought us Bin Laden. The 9/11 terrorists did not live a nomadic, homeless existence while they got their flight training. A whitewater rafting trip is not exactly a regular event for a work-a-day Muslim.
These terrorists are nihilists. At least Arafat’s wife knew that camping out in Paris on his stolen billions beat living in a sand trap in PLO land. Arafat was an exceedingly rich nihilist and he died with his ugly legacy of Hamas and terrorist crazies beating their chests. He knew better than to improve the lot of his people because a happy camper is not a dependable terrorist.
The majority of madrasses in Pakistan are boot camps for implanting the Koran and the charsimatic imam’s interpretations of it into the skulls of boys who do not have a general knowledge of the world.
They sit cross legged all day and rock back and forth in a systematic sway as they recite the Koran from memory. They are almost robotic in their calls to prayer and their swaying and head thumping.
From out of these rooms and rooms of the fundamental swaying and bobbing faithful, the eagle-eyed overseers are spotting the ones who can be psyched up for jihad and sent off to set up cells and pull the trigger of terrorism.
Masharraf knows these people well. So do the Turks, the new Iraqi government, Mubarak, the king of Jordan and even Assad in Syria know their internal enemy. If Saudi Arabia didn’t have its 10,000 millionaire princes to contain, the top of the royal family might have its reasoning in a bit tighter control.
The war on terror has its roots in the middle east. We are the victims of its cells and the long reach of the nihilists embedded there.
We have to root them out and cut their heads off. We are getting a lot of help from Musharraf, Mubarak, Jordon, the Turks and even amid all the chaos, from Iraq.
England is beginning to stir from its torpor. The Dutch have been slapped awake. Other Old Europe countries are beginning wake up to the threat within.
We all need to be more precise about who this war is with. Graham’s article fits that mold.
“He remembers, I’m sure, that at a time when Western, Christian civilization was on the verge of collapse, the Muslim world was a bastion of rationalism and tolerance. That was a great moment in the history of Islam, a moment that helped save the West.”
Actually, a lot of folks don’t want to hear this because it goes against the idea that good has come out of Islam. It goes against the bigoted view that Islam is “evil” and that all Muslims are bad. Kind of like the view that all whites are devils or all blacks are criminals, etc. etc. Many folks don’t here don’t use the term “Islamofascists” or “Islamists” because it inherently separates good Muslims from bad Muslims which is not a desire.
Slight improvement. – Admin
I saw a piece of recruitment propaganda from a moslem group soliciting members in Alabama prisons. It was a picture of a chess board. An arrow pointing to the white pieces contained the word, “EVIL,” and the arrow pointing to the black pieces said, “GOOD.” Any questions?
islam needs to be exposed for what it is. it is a combinatin of stories from the jewish and christian holy scriptures. it is very young. it would seem to me that if god gave this message he wouldnt have waited too long. mohammad has always been about war against jes, christian, and others. people should read the koran where it says to “smite the neck of the unbeliever”
“He remembers, I’m sure, that at a time when Western, Christian civilization was on the verge of collapse, the Muslim world was a bastion of rationalism and tolerance. That was a great moment in the history of Islam, a moment that helped save the West.â€
This paragraph by Graham is hyperbole at best. The Ottoman Empire did push to the gates of Vienna. But their “rationalism” was to tear down great buildings and build “temporary” ones in the belief that Allah did not approve of anything that outlasted the mortal like of a man.
That stands in stark contrast to Muslim caliphates that ruled Spain and built the Alhambra. Those caliphs became fat and lazy. In fact, the mother of the Muslim ruler who lost the Alhambra gave him a good tongue lashing. As he rode out in retreat he began to cry at his loss. Mama told him to go ahead and cry like a woman over losing what he was not man enough to keep.
Islamic history from the 700’s to the 1500’s does not really support Graham’s assertion in the general way he presents it.
Shari: Great point. islam has always been a bastard cult based on the other two Middle Eastern religions. Muhammad was a shady character to say the least. You really want to see a muslim freak out. Ask him about the historical fact, that Muhammed kept a harem of fresh, fair little boys for his sexual pleasure in addition to his famed wife Queen Latifah…er uh I mean Kadijah and a harem of whore. Sound godly to you?
I see first hand the abysmal historical knowledge of American. Today’s students could care less about what happened years ago. Instant messaging, hooking up and hanging out are far more important than learning about the incontrovertable fact that Islam strove to push their faith to world domination, mostly through war.
While it is true that Islam preserved and continued much of the progress in learning made during the Greek and Roman times, it is superseded by the fact that its followers had no problem with expanding their religion to the ends of the earth, making all of us submit or surely die. The people we call Islamofacists are no more radical than they are strict traditionalists. That is part of their appeal.
Victor Davis Hanson has written some great posts about this lack of historical knowledge and it is stunning. Most of my students are stunned as well to learn how Islam and the West have been locked in struggle for over 12 centuries.
Study your history. For if you fail, as the saying goes, you are doomed to repeat it.
Chris, islam by defintion is radical. Don’t get it twisted up in your nuancing. The only thing of worth muslim “culture” gave the world as far as I know is the “1″ and the “0″ and some how I don’t think the koran had anything to do with that.
La Shawn,
My husband told me a story about this Muslim that he worked with several years ago. It was 1999, and this guy would work like crazy for a few years in America, then go back to India to live like a king. They got along rather well, but one day the Muslim guy started going on and on about Islam and how wonderful it is and how its a religion of peace and such. Then, my husband says to him how the things that he is saying are the exact same things that Christians believe and at that point the Muslim acted like he was offended that someone would even dare to think that another religion is as good as Islam. He didn’t even want to hear any more after that, but maybe the seed was planted, who knows.
Yes, I agree, their indoctrination goes deep and they are not very tolerant of other religions. And it’s not something new. It goes waaaay back, and now they are making another push of world domination. We should fight them and not make any bones about who the enemy is.
I wonder if President Bush and Congress is getting any of these raw feelings on how people really feel about islam. I am going to assume that the popularity of LaShawn’s site is wisening some people up.
Muslim nations throttle
U.N. terror resolution
Criticism of suicide bombers censored by global body’s Islamic member states
This story is on World Net Daily.
How much more convincing do you need.
Call me Crusader, the war is on!
A few thoughts
Mohammed (OR ANY OF HIS FOLLOWERS) = ANTI-CHRIST
MOUSLEM = FALSE RELIGION
ALLAH = SATAN
To paraphrase a scripture:
IF they would open their eyes, open their ears,
turn to me than I would heal them.
It’s sad that such a point has to be said.
#12 Raymond: Really? Got a link on that?
#8 Raymond: Would we not all agree that a “good Christian” is one who obeys the New Testament’s commands and follows the example of Jesus? Similarly, a “good Muslim” is then one who obeys the commands of the Koran and follows the example of Muhammed (PBUHV). A Muslim who attacks “non-believers” is thus a “good Muslim.” Thank God there have been so many “bad Muslims!”
It’s not nuance, Raymond. The people we call radical are Islamic traditionalists, which should tell us a lot about Islam as a whole.
OOPS! Sorry — make that “#8 Anthony”
Ranten, due to the nature of the subject matter regarding Muhammed’s homosexuality, you will have to do that search on your own. I will not do that from my machine at this time.
Chris, why not call them all what they are…muslims?
I’m going to disagree with the sentiment being expressed here because I have Muslims in my family and I don’t see them or their faith as evil. But that’s just me. I doubt there is anything I can say to change anyone’s mind so I’ll just stay out of this conversation and see where it leads.
Ah, I see — just ignore what their Allah commands and the example of the prophet they are supposed to follow. If you did look into it, you might have to then see them as trapped in an evil. Don’t want that!
This is called “denial.”
They are not trapped. They are just foolish and cowardly.
Thanks James for understanding. Now moving right along…..
Raymond, unless you’re responding to someone’s subsequent comment, PLEASE try to contain all your thoughts in one comment instead of four or five in a row. – Admin
James, this gets into the truth of the Bible, and it applies to all non-Christians. While a non-believer doesn’t appear evil as man defines evil, the Bible most certainly states that those who are not followers of Christ live in darkness. There are only two kingdoms: God’s and Satan’s. Those who are not of God’s kingdom are by default of Satan’s.
This is one of the many assertions of Christianity that frustrate people to no end. By its exclusivity, it is offensive to those who don’t believe. Ironically, other religions are just as exclusive, including Islam, but those religions simply don’t offend people the way Christ seems to.
Isn’t it amazing how all these discussions lately lead us right back to the Bible (Racism, Islam, Truth, Sin…etc.)
Just an observation
Lashawn, Sorry, but I was responding to specific comments.
It’s just a quirk I have. Try to consolidate your responses the way I and others do: Respond to several people in the same comment, and bold or highlight the names.
By the way, keep the name-calling (of politicians) to a minimum. I know I get people riled up with my posts, but I want the comment thread to be somewhat civil. – Admin
And I haven’t read anywhere in the Bible instructions to kill those Kingdom of Satan by default folks!
And no one is advocating that, either. Let’s at least TRY to keep things above a certain level. – Admin
Ranteen
Should we not likewise follow the Old Testament? Christ stated that the Old Testament was still valid IIRC.
La Shawn, I do understand that. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me”. And as a Christian, that is what I believe. And I know other faiths have their own assertion as well. However, I’m of the belief that I will let God deal with each person and live my life as a testimony to His grace. As for calling for the destruction of a people because of their faith… that’s not something that is in my heart. I do believe Islam has a lot of problems, but I think there are a lot of problems in the body of Christ. I’m sure some will reply that Christians are not strapping themselves with bombs and killing innocent people, but by some of the comments here, are we not far from it? I’m not blind or in denial, just hoping that we firgure things out in time.
If you see comments on this thread that advocate destroying followers of Islam simply because they are followers of Islam, point them out and I’ll delete them. Red herring accusations and obfuscations are a bloody waste of space and a strain on my patience. And you don’t have to be “of the belief” that God will deal with each person. He will assuredly deal with each person. He will examine each of our lives to see evidence of fruit and whether we’re living obediently in EVERY aspect of our lives. – Admin
I guess one of the differences James (for me is)…
you can read the words of Christ in the Bible and know how a christian should be (sure there are problems however there is a standard to go to the Bible…)
Where do you go in Islam? The Koran says one thing and it is pretty clear. Do you tell the fundamentalist they are wrong…according to the Koran they are correct.
It’s not so much “let’s kill ‘em all”…
people are just saying, let’s just be honest about what is happening here
La Shawn, I read the comment in #4 and if it doesn’t say what I think it says, it comes pretty close.
I can not think of a worse war strategy than for those who oppose deadly Islam to turn their cause into a religious crusade in which Christian soldiers use the ammo of New Testament Bible verses against the Islamists and their perverted view of how the world should be ruled.
The war on terrorism must remain focused. That in no way means that those who fight the Islamists should hide their beliefs. Survival and being able to practice your religious beliefs are enough of a core cause to sustain the war effort.
James, no one has called for killing all muslims. We have only called for defeating them as an enemy threat.
#4 does not say that either, but you do understand that in war James, a war the muslims declared, they must be willing to suffer the consequences and when you mess with an entity as powerful as the United States of America, you are not going to lose justone or two people. When you declare war on us, the stakes are raised significantly and it is a fact that your very own existence comes into question.
Anthony said, “Many folks here don’t use the term “Islamofascists†or “Islamists†because it inherently separates good Muslims from bad Muslims which is not a desire.”
You are so right Anthony. I have absolutely no desire to seperate the “good” muslim from the “bad” muslim (if such a thing exists). I DO have a strong desire to protect my family and my country from any threat. I really don’t care about Islam’s ancient history. I Do care about the present and the future. At this time Islam itself is a THREAT to our way of life, our safety and our future. It turns out that you can’t tell the “good” practitioners of Islam from the “bad.” London got a deadly reminder of that fact just recently. So why can’t we just deport every noncitezen muslim in the U.S.? Why can’t we close the borders with shoot to kill orders so they can’t get back in the U.S.? Why can’t we just outlaw the practice of Islam and all outward symbols of its existence? Why can’t we close the mosques? Why can’t we just declare that Islam is no longer a recognized religion under constitutional protection at this time? Why can’t we just declare that it is seditious speech that is paramount to yelling fire in a movie theater? Why can’t citizen muslims be profiled? Why can’t citizen muslims have a temporary suspension of rights to travel out of the country? Why can’t citizen muslims be under surveillance? Why do we have to tie our hands from protecting our citizens so that muslims don’t get their feelings hurt? I guarantee the families of the victims of 911 got their feelings hurt. I guarantee that something of that magnitude or much, much worse will happen again if we keep protecting the feelings of the muslim community instead of protecting the entire country. If these “good” muslims people keep going on about were more concerned with the safety of their fellow citizens instead of their own religious agenda, then they would be yelling at the top of their lungs for the things I and others have suggested. The silence is deafening and I remain unmoved.
Renee,
I will give you that. And I have no problem with what you are saying. Heck, I question my pastor on some of his interpretations all of the time. Especially about the amount he is always asking us to give. But that is another story.
Anthony,
You appear to be attempting to cloud the issue with a “moral equivalence” argument. It won’t wash.
The Old Testament must be viewed through the lens of the New Testament. The New Testament is explicit with the commands of Jesus and His example. Those we must follow, and we can use the Old Testament to clarify some issues.
How many raids on the enemy did Jesus lead?
How many villages did Jesus capture?
At how many of the villages He had captured did Jesus oversee the execution of all men and the sale of all women and children into poverty?
What share of war booty did Jesus say His followers could keep?
In all of the above, the answer is zero or “N/A.” Change the name to Muhammed and all answers change to a non-zero number.
There is no equivalence, moral or otherwise.
James said:
“I question my pastor on some of his interpretations all of the time. Especially about the amount he is always asking us to give. But that is another story.”
That is great:-)
Ranten and Raven…nice! #41
I will caution us all that Jesus, The Ultimate Warrior and Destroyer will return to this Earth to bring War and Death to satan’s legions (including muslims) on a scale unimaginable.
You can hate Christians now all you want, but Jesus will win and for those of you confused as to what Jesus may have said or didn’t say during His Incarnation on Earth, please remember that He exists in Three Persons and that on some issues, He spoke very clearly.
Some like to say Jesus said nothing about homosexuality being a sin. On the contrary. He most certainly did when He in the person of His Father wiped away Sodom and Gomorrah in a furious, angry hail of fire.
Don’t get it twisted.
Reply #37:
The reason we can’t do that is because we are not willing to give up the principles that form the foundation of our society. If we were, we would become the mirror image of the philosophy that we seek to protect ourselves against. Yes, we coud do that and I’m sure there are a number of people that would agree with you. But would we still be the same America? I don’t think we would but you are free to disagree with me. Note the word, free.
JM
“Judging from the comments are we not far from it?”
Jeez/Louise- Yes. Comments are different from killing people. That argument is silly at best. Nowhere did I call for murder.
I guess I wasn’t clear enough on # 31. I’m pointing out that the Bible doesn’t call for ANY murder as far as I’ve read. The Koran calls for it in several places.
This is some powerful stuff! Without wanting to add to the anti-Islam argument here, what surprises me is that Muslims are in denial. They do not believe that Muslims are doing these acts of terrorism, and they believe that they are the victims! Funny old world isn’t it?
Pajammazon:
When you said: “I am looking forward to the day that we are actually allowed to take the fight to islam. To destroy all evidence that this “faith†ever existed!”
What fight are you talking about and how do you destroy all evidence that Islam ever existed? Didn’t the Taliban try that in Afghanistan with Buddhas?
It sounds like violence to me, but I’m open to the fact that I am not reading your words in their proper context.
#47. Sounds like is not like and even if he did say what you think he said, where is it not warranted?
Why you keep defending that sick cult is just beyond me. Who’s side are you on and don’t give me that fairness and rights under the Constitution speech.
Stop trying to defend the indefensible and defend your AMERICAN family instead. Geesh.
Today, what is at the core of satan’s Islam, a mission of hate and death for all of Western civilization is, simply stated, – Israel! And Christ is coming back to Jerusalem to claim all of “His” followers.
James said, “But would we still be the same America?”
James, would we still be the same America if New York, Chicago, L.A., or Atlanta were wiped off the map? I don’t take the idea of suspending the civil liberties of any citizens lightly. However, I believe our country has become complacent and arrogant. Do we really believe we can maintian our people and way of life during war without any sacrifice to ourselves? No country has ever fought a war without making sacrifices and deciding on an enemy and dealing with them accordingly. Now I’m sorry that my suggestions might lead to less freedom for “innocent” muslims. But faith is of the heart and soul, not in religous symbols. If I was an innocent muslim that loved my country then I would let it be known that I condemned those that perverted my faith. I would let it be known that I had nothing to hide and would submit to that which keeps my country safe. If today multiple groups of brown eyed, brown haired, white women started terrorizing and killing in the international community, I would expect our government to treat my group with a lot of suspicion and different protocols. I would publicly annonce that I fit the profile, but have nothing to hide. I would want authorities to check my home and follow me about so that I might prove my innocence. I would want the authorities to limit the travel of such a group to protect my family and our citizens. I’m not seeing or hearing that from the muslim community. Liberty is something you protect by limiting the freedoms your enemy uses to destroy it.
JM
Conventional explosives on the two main sites- ( Mecca&Medina) followed by the destruction of all mosques. (at least in the USA)
This may sound Mao-esque but once the conclusion has been reached that islam is the enemy it becomes simple. ALL evidence of this corruption will be removed! Maybe put some in a museum called “The lengths we’ll go to appear tollerant.” It would be dedicated to the absurdity of waiting DECADES to recognize EVIL.
James, #25 – There are certainly Muslims and Catholics I can and do respect. However, it’s not just the teachings of Islam (submission to sharia) and Catholicism (submission to the Pope), but also both their abominable histories that concern me greatly. It seems that our understanding and historical knowledge of both these systems are equally obscured. Can we blame Muslims for not knowing the difference between Biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism?
After Constantine, the persecuted became the persecutors under the banner of Rome. By the 13th century, Bible reading was prohibited, conversion was replaced by extermination, and the Inquisition lasted 6 centuries with the consent of 80 consecutive Popes. A little over 100 years ago Pius IX denounced Liberty of Conscience, Liberty of Worship, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press, confirmed again by Leo XIII at the beginning of the 20th century. Pope John Paul II, the Vicar of Christ, announced he had no assurance of salvation. At least a Muslim has the promise of 72 virgins, almost identical to the pledge offered by Rome to the Crusaders. It took Rome four hundred years even after the Protestant Reformation to clean house, after 1500 years of persecution of Jews.
Let’s just be honest about both religions. How long will it take Islam to reform? Probably another 1000 years, or never, unless we learn to resist the onslaught of this so-called Religion of Peace.
#48 & #49:
Ok, I’m going to let you two have fun with your person versions of Armageddon. Unless the terroist find a way to take control of China and launch nuclear weapons, New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles will be here. Hell, Chicago was once destroyed by a cow… and now its the slaughter capitol of the country. That’s not a good example, but you know what I’m trying to say.
By the way, I’m still trying to find a good pizza joing in Los Angeles. I had a Chicago style hotdog yesterday – and they didn’t even get that right. There are a lot of good things about LA but the food is not one of them.
That was an eye opening article. Thank you La Shawn.
Clutter: I know enough about Catholicism and Islam to know that there some real issues with their teaching and their history. I think my grandchildren will be talking about this same subject when they are grandparents.
James just compare islam and Catholicism. by a show of hands, did he just lose a big chunk of credibility?
James, it doesn’t take a nuclear arsenal like China’s to pose a nuclear threat. In a post communist Russia where many nuclear devices are unaccounted for, it is far from inconceivable that someone out there is selling to the highest bidder. In fact in an era of nuclear proliferation by decidedly unstable governments, it would seem rather likely that a portable nuclear weapon would be brought across our ridiculously open borders. When our government appears to be welcoming the enemy into our borders; it doesn’t take launch capability, just a truck or overseas container. Now, I don’t think identifying an enemy and taking precautions to prevent them the freedom to kill our people is overreaction. Now if you go back and look at the precautions I addressed, you will see I didn’t say anything about killing or bombing anyone. However, I would like it to be known we are willing to do so if we are attacked with WMDs. I just want the enemy (Practitioners of Islam) to get out and stay out of the country if they are not citizens. I want us to disavow Islam as a protected freedom of religion because it is dangerous and calls for DEATH of the infidel (US). If there was a religion that had a main tenant to kill all black men, then I suspect you would be calling for the same thing. Just get the enemy out and prevent them from doing harm on our soil. Now, if after that has occured and a long range nuclear bomb is launched onto our soil, then Mecca can become so much dust as far as I’m concerned. But first things first…
#54 Raymond: (My hand’s up!)
Comparing the Catholic Church’s past violation of Christ’s commands to Islamic today obeying Allah’s? Priceless sophistry.
I wonder when the Ku Klux Klan was murdering Black folk back in the day in the name of their race, did Black people go around saying…”Sugar, honey-child, now all white folk and racists and killers” and actually believing it.
The rule was then, you treated them all as dangerous up to and including crossing the street if you saw one or a group of them approaching you on the side walk.
#50 clutter
I understand your points and only wish to add this additional thought:
Christian religion has a strong organizing structure and for the most part is hierarchic. This has been its great strength and, as you point out, its great flaw.
Islam has no built in hierarchic order. So charismatics and powerful tribal chiefs (sheiks) run rough shod over their believers. That is why when you go to Istanbul, for instance, there are mosques every few hundred yards organized around the local neighborhood and entirely independent from one another.
The hierarchy in the Christian church has been shaken up from time to time and forced to adapt to the times. The Reformation would be the most obvious example.
Islam has no hierarchic structure to take it through a “reformation.” A reformation has to be done imam by iman. But, it is also possible to “force” a change through the creation of a state government that does not permit Islamic law to be equal to or greater than the law of the state. Turkey and Ataturk are the models here.
There is no negotiating with Islam, because there is no one to negotiate with.
I become aggravated when the argument against the Islamic threat becomes a Pi#$#ing contest between the legitimacy of Christianity versus Islam. As a Christian I have my own thoughs on that matter, but it is NOT the point in a political context. If Hindus were committing the attacks with the support of the Hindu community then they would be the enemy. Same for Christians, Jews, Neo-nazis, midgets, teenage anorexic girls, blind people, whoever. Any organized group of people that declare war on America within the support of their wider community is the ENEMY. When Christians start running around willy nilly killing people for not being Christian, let me know. I’ll personally help lead the man hunts and raiding parties.
I didn’t read all the comments, but Christianity hasn’t exactly been a religion of peace either. Pope Pius didn’t do anything to stop the killing of the Jews, actually just sat back and watched. And this Catholic priest Charles Coughlin in the 30s and 40s preaching hate, nothing was done about him. Falwell and Robertson saying 9/11 was our fault, and I believe we struck first in the Crusades. And somewhere in the Bible Jesus says “I come not to bring peace but a sword”. I may be wrong about some or all of this. Hmm, I wonder if Buddhism or Hinduism are religions of peace.
#62 I agree with Independent. The argument should stick to who is the murderous enemy vs. who is the victim.
Chuck, please stop playing with the Wayback Machine and return to 2005. Thank you!
First time commenters must be approved before their comments are posted, and I don’t sit at a computer all day to approve comments. But for your juvenile accusation, inane assumptions, and paucity of patience, your comment, although wrong-headed, would have been posted. – Admin
It’s not Moselms as a whole that represent a threat to us — it’s Moslem FUNDAMENTALISTS.
In fact, FUNDAMENTALISTS of all stripes are dangerous (e.g. Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph).
Many of the commenters on this thread blatantly confound fundamentalist Moslems with all Moslems, while I suspect they will refuse any comparison to McVeigh.
You cats are on a role today. I made no such comparison. I was merely responding to a post that mentioned both Catholicism and Islam.
There are facts that we will all have to live with.
1. The US is not going to ban the practice of Islam.
2. There will always be extreme elements of Islam that we will have to deal with.
3. We’re not going to bomb Mecca – we still have economic interest that have to be taken into consideration. Ya know… oil.
4. We’ve compromised on our civil liberties as much as we are going to compromise.
5. I don’t know many Americans that look forward to becoming more like Russia, Turkey or any other country in the world.
6. It feels too good to be free.
Chuck #60 unfortunately wrote, “Pope Pius didn’t do anything to stop the killing of the Jews, actually just sat back and watched.”
You could say that about every Pope during every decade. What is the current Pope doing about the current situation in Darfur? How does anyone address what you wrote with logic?
Subsequently wrote, “I believe we struck first in the Crusades.
I believe you should do your research before writing irresponsible rhetoric.
And then subsequently wrote, “I may be wrong about some or all of this.”
Nothing to see or respond to here. He admitted it. Whew!
Are we hear to play the inaccurate blame game?
Trying to deflect the current topic which was written about very well by the author La Shawn posted about, won’t work.
James, who are you? Nostradamus? And Andy S. You are too late, the people who come to this site know that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it must be a muslim.
Andy S.
Again you are incorrect. Christian fundamentalists are not dangerous. If people are following the teachings of Christ they are not out there terrorizing. It would be people who stray from Christ’s teachings.
Muslim fundamentalists conversely are a problem. The Koran does refer to infidels as having to be dispensed with. There are many readers of the Koran out there who point out the versus and paragraphs. I won’t at this point. I’m simply here to let you know in a preliminary way that you are way off truth.
McVeigh did not follow Christ’s teachings and was roundly/completely/without ambiguity denounced for his actions. There is no ambiguity there except to liberals like yourself. Read the article again that La Shawn posted about. You’ll see a stark difference. Watch interviews of muslim leaders news shows and you see the justifications of terrorist actions due to our government’s policy.
It’s ok to be incorrect. But once corrected to repeat the mistake is to be propogandizing.
Clever Chuck,
yes there are flaws in Christianity (due to the involvelment of man). But tell me, when was the last time you heard a “fatwa” issued from your neighborhood Baptist Church? Evangelical? Ok lets check the Catholic’s, Anglicans or Presbyterians? Hmmmmm. I don’t remember that. I think we need to address this rationally and discuss, as is common here on LBC, but your comments were inflammatory and itching for a fight, I suggest you move on to some chisme sit like wonkette.
BTW, I am Arabic and a Christian, have you heard of the Maronites? We are very familiar with the “religion of peace” and it is not necessarily peaceful because it can be changed and interpreted by the neighborhood hack. Yes there are many peaceful Muslims who are afraid to speak up for fear of their neighbors, but are you trying to tell me that posters here have no right to ask questions and address concerns? I hope not. In this nation we have the right to question things that disturb us. It is called brain storming protected under freedom of speech.
Again, I come here because LaShawn runs a good site and lets people speak, including wannabe rabble rousers like you. Be careful of what you say because here, we take our faith seriously.
I checked your site before posting, surely you don’t agree in supression of discussion?
Indy #59, I’m with you amigo!
James, you frustrate me, but yes we are free to disagree and for that I am grateful. However, we are not free to threaten each other or to call on our friends to help harm each other. You and I are not free to aid and abet those that would do others harm. That is a freedom apparently held for the Islamic community. I concede your points; however, as I don’t believe our government is going to take the steps necessary to prevent future Islamic attacks. However, when something tragic enough happens the people are going to throw off their PC shackles and take matters into their own hands. I just hope and pray that yours and mine don’t have to pay with their lives to wake our country up.
Raymond-
I’ve never called them by any other name. Muslims are by definition Muslims. However, if you think that showing by historical fact that Muslim terrorists (who by TODAY’S definition are radical) are ideologically the same as the Muslim conquerors of the 700’s is not calling a Muslim a Muslim then I suppose whatever point I’m trying to make is just plain lost upon you. My apologies.
To be precise, Christianity is not religion; it is a relationship with God through Jesus, not through a pope. The “organizing structure†of the “Christian†religion certainly didn’t help John Huss very much, nor did it facilitate Luther’s attempt to return to the Bible. Huss, after having received papal assurance for safe passage, was burned at the stake in Constance. If you want to talk about priceless sophistry, what about Jesuit sophistry of the end justifying the means?
What, pray tell, are Islamists doing they didn’t learn from Roman Catholicism? And for the “great strength†of the organizing structure, name me one of dozens of 20th century dictators(or sheiks) from Berlin to Manila, through the Americas, that did not grow up under the influence of this Catholic Religion, just one. Even though reformed, when did Catholicism cease to be the religion of works and of rituals without righteousness?
Sorry James but I don’t give a hoot that you have muslim inlaws and the such…….Islam itself is still evil……you obviously have never studied this murderous movement as I have……My 2 best buddies are apostates from Islam…….Mayby you should talk to them about Islam for a more HONEST view of Muhammed’s deranged teachings!!!
I grew up with muslims…..even dating one (A Sunni Turk)……I am not questioning that their are decent muslims……but that is in spite of Islam, not because of it!!
Exactly how do you defend that Islam is peaceful???
This is something I would be interested in hearing!
How can you defend Mahound’s advocating Wife beating, looting, murdering and even rape??
Or do you approve of his marriage to a 6 year old child when Muhammed was in his 50’s??
Get your head of the sand James!!
Bak
Thanks for straightening out Andy S on that fundamentalist argument.
Uh Chisme Chuck,
as for Hindus or Buddhists being the “religion of peace”, check out any site on current India Thailand or Burma. There are articles on Hindu and Buddhist nationalist/separatists killing people. Nothing man made is perfect. think before you speak.
Clutter, WTF? . . . . Uh OK, another one of those, whatever.
My, what OLD canards. Do they not know?
Can you tell me what church was McVeigh affiliated with? NONE! Of course he didn’t follow Christ’s teachings: He was an atheist!
Eric Rudolph? Oh, please! Try again (http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050705/ts_usatoday/specialreportericrudolphwriteshome):
QUOTE
“Many good people continue to send me money and books,” Rudolph writes in an undated letter. “Most of them have, of course, an agenda; mostly born-again Christians looking to save my soul. I suppose the assumption is made that because I’m in here I must be a ’sinner’ in need of salvation, and they would be glad to sell me a ticket to heaven, hawking this salvation like peanuts at a ballgame. I do appreciate their charity, but I could really do without the condescension. They have been so nice I would hate to break it to them that I really prefer Nietzsche to the Bible.”
UNQUOTE
So, Jesus said “I come not to bring peace but a sword?†Not quite the same as USING a sword, many times both in raids and in beheading every man in a village (plus one woman) AFTER their surrender. Jesus could talk figuratively; Muhammed could figure what spoils he kept.
Try not to make such a stretch. The leader of the Fantastic Four you are not.
#70 Proud Albertan:
Give it a rest, will you. We all know he waited until she was nine before he consumated that marriage!
Alberton: I’ve conceded many times that there I have some very serious issues with Islam. I do think it in parts advocates violence against women, children and non-Muslims. Head is not in the sand on this. My point is that are we talking about terrorism or wiping the Islam from the face of the earth. There are some that will contend that they are one in the same, but I don’t. That is the only thing that I am talking about.
At no point in my discussion did I defend Islam or call it a peaceful religion.
As for my family. I’ve lost friends and family to violence. Cousin shot 12 times on the west side of Chicago. Friend, shot once in the head in his apartment. Friend’s sister killed by drug dealers along with 5 other people. I’ve lived part of my life around fanatics. I’m sure if I lost family to terrorism, I’m going to feel the same hurt and anger that I felt then. I should hope one day it won’t come to that.
Ranten and Raven,
EXCELLENT POINT!
Baklava,
You are assuming that fundamentalists follow the teachings of their religions. That’s unfortunately nowhere near true, at least not as a general statement.
You also assume that all Moslems read and interpret their scripture literally, and that all respond to the calls of their most firebrand leaders. Also incorrect.
All I’m saying is — it’s a cheap rhetorical technique to embrace the moderates of your own camp, while the characterizing other camp by its extremists. Lefties and righties do it all over the blogosphere, to the detriment of useful conversation. This thread has done it, in my opinion, and in doing so fails to engage in useful dialog about meeting the challenge of Moslem extremism in a way that recognizes that, since there are over a billion of them, the kind of extermination called for in post 4 and others isn’t gonna happen. We will, at some point in the future, have to find a point of accommodation (however uneasy).
James said, “I should hope one day it won’t come to that.”
James, I’m hoping right along with you. I have also noticed where you have stated your problems with Islam. Where we differ is how far we will go to prevent the worst. Peace
Keep it coming Ranten N Raven…
some here need an “egamication”
Andy S. said, “We will, at some point in the future, have to find a point of accommodation (however uneasy).”
I’m willing to concede or accommodate nothing to the religion of hate and death. Our government needs to get them out, keep them out, and ban the practice of Islam. After that, the ball is in their court.
So the solution that I am hearing, If I’m wrong let me know:
1. We ban the practice of Islam.
2. All Muslims that are not citizens are exported to their country of origin.
3. All Mosques are closed
4. Muslims are restricted in travel and must no notify authorities of their movement.
5. The border is completely shut with limited access.
James, you stated my position perfectly.
Hey Indy,
The post # 59 became 60, what happened? I still agree with you 100%.
Independent:
I actaully wish I could offer something alternative but I don’t have any clear cut answers. There are so many things that drive Islamic fanatics that I think it will take a few generations of internal and external pressures to make any real changes. And I’m afraid that once we’ve gotten the Middle East under control we will have the same issue with Africa.
W.NM.,
I don’t know what happened to the comment order, but I’m glad you agree. The point that the crux of the religion is secondary, is often lost in the debate.
#69 clutter wrote:
“To be precise, Christianity is not religion; it is a relationship with God through Jesus, not through a pope. The “organizing structure†of the “Christian†religion certainly didn’t help John Huss very much, nor did it facilitate Luther’s attempt to return to the Bible. Huss, after having received papal assurance for safe passage, was burned at the stake in Constance. If you want to talk about priceless sophistry, what about Jesuit sophistry of the end justifying the means?”
The Reformation was not quick and decisive. Many protesters were brought down. But how many “Protestant” sects were alive, active and/or thriving before the Reformation.
Particularizing the circumstance to attack the general premise is one of the easiest traps of fallacious logic to fall into.
I carry no brief for the Vatican, but anti-papism is as old as the Roman Catholic church itself. There was a real breakout of it in the 1920’s with the KKK in Indiana and Illinois. I would not choose to throw in with that group.
The ecclesia stems from Ecclesiastes and has diverged in myriad ways from the founding Christian councils and devoled tthrough the millenia to the synods and the diocese of today.
My argument is with the death being dealt by Islam. The Pope is not currently swinging his venegeful sword nor trying to rain down destruction upon my head.
I am never in favor of taking on more snakes than you can kill. In fact, I would be a recalcitrant student in the classroom of zealous anti-Roman Catholicism.
James,
I know my solution seems very isolationist, but I think it is practical. I don’t mind helping people through humanitarian efforts, but I want the violence and hate to stay out of my country. I also share your fears for Africa. I guess we will do what we can and jump that hurdle when we get to it. I’ve enjoyed talking to you and appreciate that we’ve managed to do it with mutual respect.
Heliotrope,
I enjoy reading your posts, but every time I hit your name I am linked to an “Apple/mac” site. Is that my computer or is it your site?
#85 James Manning wrote:
So the solution that I am hearing, If I’m wrong let me know:
1. We ban the practice of Islam.
2. All Muslims that are not citizens are exported to their country of origin.
3. All Mosques are closed
4. Muslims are restricted in travel and must no notify authorities of their movement.
5. The border is completely shut with limited access.
Point # 1. That would violate the 1st amendment and there is no reason for it. We make it abundantly clear that no tenet of Islam rises above the Constitution and the public safety.
Point # 2. Not nearly all. There are “sunshine” Muslims. Every mosque I have visited in the Mid-East has thousands of Muslims milling around town during the “call to prayers.” The Muslims have plenty of members who do not inconvenience themselves with the particulars of their religion.
3. Real mosques are open and anyone can visit them. This is not true when the imam is addressing the “faithful.” If the imam can not be open, it is not a religion, it is a secret society. Use that test first.
4. If we are in broad declared war against Muslims, then this would be no different than previous martial law practiced during World War II.
5. We can not have a perfectly sealed border, but, for the sake of debate: seal it. Why should anyone enter or leave without examination, let alone notice?
With these understandings, I essentially agree with your supposition. I do not know if you offered them in good faith, but it is a useful list.
Einstein said: Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
Independent:
This is one where folks vent their frustration and that’s cool with me. Plus, there are lot of good things happening today: It’s 76 degrees and sunny in Southern California and I’m only 15 minutes away from the beach. My 3 year old took a nap so she won’t be cranky when I get off of work. My girl is cooking fish tonight. On top of that, my Direct TV is and I just order the NFL Sunday Ticket. I get paid tomorrow. That’s a lot of good things happening at one time.
Now, hit me up after all of the bills are paid and I don’t let the kid watch Peter Pan for the 152nd time. It might be a different discussion.
PEACE
# 92 W. MN
Thanks much for the kind post. I do not leave an open contact, but you have piqued my curiosity. Maybe La Shawn can get you through to me. I love this lady…….she is so dead on!!!
Andy S. wrote, “You are assuming that fundamentalists follow the teachings of their religions.”
Please look up what fundamentalism is. It is essentially taking the word of the book you refer to “literally”. So, I assume for good reason. That IS what fundamentalism is. To call someone a fundamentalist when they aren’t taking the word of their book literally would be incorrect.
Andy S also incorrectly wrote, “You also assume that all Moslems read and interpret their scripture literally,“. I’m sorry. I never stated (and never assumed) that ALL ‘moslems’ read and interpret their scripture literally. Those who are fundamentalists do. I never put a percentage to it. But you must admit that it is a problem if the Koran is interpreted literally. So if 10% do then that means that 10% want to kill the infidel. Great…. Even if it’s 1%. Great….
The writer that La Shawn posted about writes about the second problem. That is that the moderate ‘moslems’ seem to be unable to denounce and without question say that suicide bombings are wrong. It is wrong. It isn’t freedom fighting. It isn’t a way to negotiate. Period.
Andy S. stated at the bottom “We will, at some point in the future, have to find a point of accommodation (however uneasy).”
Accomodation of people who practice a different faith is no problem Andy S.
Accomodation of terrorists will never happen. You can talk to us until you are blue in the face. We will never submit or negotiate or find a point of accommodation with those who are not just “extremists” but terrorists. Preaching hate to their children. Do you even know what the Palestinian children learn in school everyday? Have you seen those reports? Do you think that you can find some point of accommodation with people who want you dead? (Again, I have to do this with you, I’m not talking about those people who just have a different faith only).
You keep threatening to leave, Chuck. Just GO. Your disapproving remarks about how this site is run are insufferable and will no longer be tolerated.
Everyone, PLEASE visit Chuck’s blog and keep him company:
http://hammockbrain54.blogspot.com
- Admin
Chuck wrote, “ I said “I may be wrongâ€.
you are.
It would be like me saying, “I believe Arnold is cutting expenditures for education here in CA”.
Is it true or not.
It’s not.
If I then say, “I could be wrong”..
What does that provide me? License to say whatever I want? No. You still need to take responsibility for what you write.
I’m 100 !!
Just wanted to say La Shawn. I visited his site already. I won’t be going back.
Misinformation galore…
Different ideas are fine.
Heliotrope,
I agree 100%. LaShawn has one of the best, classiest, most mature sites on the ‘net. People here (even if they disagree) are usually open for discussion and try to resolve things.
I am not much of a poster, but I enjoy the people here.
“hammockbrain” gives me the mental image of a dangling lazy mind swaying whither the wind blows — saying: “If it sounds good and soothing, I gots to go with the flow”.
Islam has been at war with the rest of the world for 1,100 years. America had been isolated from the parts of the world with large Muslim populations for the most part and did no pay attention to what was and is happening. That All changed in 1979; but some people still have not figured it out in 05.Most of those probably never will.
Andy #102,
Lazybrain?
sleepybrain?
able-bodied individual on the safety net brain?
Bak # 104
Mind so open, it all leaked out?
Stands for nothing, falls for anything?
Heliotrope, actually I believe James Manning was restating my thoughts when he made the following list:
1. We ban the practice of Islam.
2. All Muslims that are not citizens are exported to their country of origin.
3. All Mosques are closed
4. Muslims are restricted in travel and must
notify authorities of their movement.
5. The border is completely shut with limited access.
I understand your quibbles with my argument, although I realize you mostly agreed. However, I’m for a complete and total radical removal of the tissue to rid us of the Islamic cancer. I don’t trust a round of chemo and a little radiation to do the job.
If anything, these discussions clearly demonstrate the anger the world has towards islam. It will take centuries for the muslims to repair the damage done to their already damaged cult.
Americans are fed up. We are tired of feeding the world, changing its diapers, burping it, changing its crappy drawers and spanking it. At some point a man reaches his breaking point and can tolerate no more.
Never in history has one nation given so much and received so little in return for its benevolence only to be repaid with attacks and death.
This nation will not fail. We will prove that this experiment called America works. Mess with us if you want to, but understand that you are signing your own death warrant. We welcome you to our house, but you must behave. We have a culture which you must adopt. Yours is not relevant anymore in the general context. If you want to be muslim, Mexican, Peruvian, Russian or Somali, then be that at home, but when you walk out that door, you are AMERICAN!
We don’t pick fights, but we love to get in the ring. To the muslims, I say, If you want a Jihad, you’d better pack a lunch. We don’t play that crap and you can keep pushing and pushing andspushing and one day you will know the soul of the American.
Do not pick a fight with the Red, White and Blue unless you want a size 3000 boot on your backside.
USA Forever!
#106 Independent
If my post helps, great! You are going to need a fall-back position when the 1st amendment gets in the way! (Or do you know of some way to get the ACLU to take a hike?)
Meanwhile, going for the whole enchilada is a lot smarter than trying to take the hill one blade of grass at a time!
Heliotrope, Oh man, the ACLU is the bain of my, and every red blooded, Americans existence. I’ll add a number six to my list.
#6 No tax payer money will ever again be given to the ACLU. All ACLU members that are apologists for Islamic maniacs will be charged with treason.
Actually, Andy didn’t you make a comment one time about Islamic practices maybe not being protected under the first amendment? I might be confused. I just thought I remembered something along those lines.
Religious extremeists of both types? Heh!
We all know what a Moslem extremeist is like. How about a “New Testament” extremeist? What would they be like?
Why not go to a convent and ask the nuns?
I am with you on #6 Independence
You know, if we ever got the guts to declare war on Islam itself, then wouldn’t first amendment rights for Islam be moot?
#113 independent
Roger, that. Censorship of the mails and the likes were an important part of WWII. (Wartime powers ceded to Roosevelt.)
Gee, can’t you just hear the screams from the press if they had to serve the safety of the nation?
#111 Ranten N. Raven
Run, don’t walk to the nearest phone and call 911 and turn the terrorist nuns in. Make the world safe from these menaces to peaceful society. Look out, they might jump out from behind a tree and get you. Better yet, go hide in your basement.
Better yet, Ranten N. Raven just go to the Islamic country of your choice. Buy them a coke, teach them to sing. However, when they turn the bottle into a molotov cocktail and throw it at you, don’t say you were not warned.
Read my previous posts and you will see that my reference to nuns was S*A*R*C*A*S*M! True fundamentalist Christians (Nuns) are not dangerous!
Oh, sorry Ranten N. Raven! I misunderstood and now I am hanging my head in shame. Can you feel the heat from my red cheeks? Again, I apologize for jumping the gun.
#117 Ranten N. Raven
My bad. I did not scroll back through the posts to get your context. I violated my basic rule of commenting negatively on a post. I have only two things to say:
Great moniker….Ranten N, Raven and
good night!
Okay James…….fair enough…..
Ranten N. Raven,
Thanks for you spirited defence of Christianty (and Catholicism) aganist silly moral equivalence sophistries.
Dig it.
Adrian
CAIR, which in the past has been most noted as an apologist organization for Islamic terror, has just issued a fatwa against terrorism and extremism. By itself, this means little or nothing. But if it represents even a tiny crack in the Islamofascist wall, then good.
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