Quotas

Come to think of it, the city government of Philadelphia, esp in the mayor’s office, has a greater number of blacks than the cities demographics should indicate… where’s the program to get the nearly un-represented Vietnamese and Chinese populations some gummint jobs? Actually, same applies for the Russian and Ukrainian immigrant community here. There is not a single slav on the mayor’s staff!
Racism! Discrimination!
I’d laugh, but the longer I think about it, the more absurd and the less funny these things get.

LaShawn, I find that it’s blacks, or other minorities, who are not (or won’t become) educated or who do not have well-paying skilled trades (which also takes training, hard work, and diligence) that are in favor of affirmative action the way it’s practiced currently.

Most people, nowdays in my experience, who KNOW they have the requirements for schools/jobs and have confidence in themselves, and their abilities, don’t ask for or expect special treatment.

Another come to think of it:

The U.S. Supreme Court has 9 members. I suspect that’s enough personnel to run afoul of the EEOC’s racial and gender guidelines. In a more fun world, the EEOC would sue (The office of POTUS?) for discriminatory practices.

My brother, a fiber optics specialist recently told me an interesting story about the reality of government contracts here in ‘equal opportunity America.’ He said that he kept bidding on government jobs but could not seem to get them. Finally,he called his best friend, who is black, and asked him to bid on some jobs for him. His friend did, and got every one he bid on. Now, his friend has no equipment, does not do fiber optics, but has incorporated his name. Basically, he sits in his house, at his computer, and bids on government jobs all day. He then seeks out white firms to do the work and he takes a percentage off of the top. My brother said that his friend once (for fun) bid twice as high as he did for the same job, but his friend got the contract. Ergo, our government is paying enormous amounts of money to secure contracts for work, and taxpayers are getting soaked.Fortunately for my brother, he and his best friend have worked out a pretty good deal, and my brother gets paid well.His friend bids on jobs all over the US, and my brother does the work, and they’re both happy…… His friend says that he has just found the goose that laid the golden egg. I’ll say.

My son-in-law, who is Hispanic, was saying yesterday that he feels horrible that he and his brothers get special consideration in their small business that my son won’t get, and he said that he has never seen this much emphasis on race anywhere else in the world. He maintains that ultimately, this is a divisive, destructive practice. Even though he has benefitted from it, he feels that it is very wrong.

Without Affirmative Action and the CRA, do folks really believe that attitudes would’ve changed enough to afford Blacks the opportunities they have today? True enough, there is much blame to be laid at the feet of the Black Community for their problems but, to ignore hundreds of years of oppression and exclusion is irresponsible and ignorant.

Ms. Barber, in a previous post you acknowledge that you’ve benefited from A/A but, now realize it’s unfair. Are you willing to walk backwards through all of the doors that were opened to you because of it?

The only “door” I walked through via skin color preferences that I’m certain of was getting into a school I was totally unqualified to attend. Will I give back the degree? Of course not. As to other benefits, perceived or otherwise, the tragic truth is that I’m not certain. My qualifications will always be in doubt because of paternalistic and misguided “help” from white social engineers. – Admin

Incorrect numbers brotherbrown.

Thanks for the propoganda (misinformation).

They vary Tiffany. They aren’t one set of numbers.

Different preferential treatment programs are administered different ways.

I’ll ask you this..

Can you take the time to read Ward Connerly’s book “Creating Equal”. He has examples of how difficult it was for certain groups to make it in and how easy it was for other groups. He did it factually with data. To the point that you had to have a 4.0 grade average if you were one color and a it could be a much lower gpa for another.

With respect to contracts (Prop 209 in CA banned this practice), there were points given for women owned businesses and minority owned business. I actually worked for a husband and wife business owner where her name was on the business for that reason although she was a stay at home mom. Great way to promote honesty and civility and respect (with these kinds of additional point practices).

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm

He is a good man who deserves no disdain. He even talks about his upbringing. I think you’ll find it fascinating.

Bak, to tie in with your comments on contracts, I’ve seen some agencies with accross the board set-asides. To wit, they may say all contracts with a value of $100K or less must go to the disaadvantaged with little by the way of past performance experience. The other contracts, tho require a mix ie 51-49% and require extensive past performance.

Sounds ok until you see the annual budgeting (in the billions) and see that 65% of all the money went to contracts that were $100K or less. So in effect, 65% of all contracts were awarded to minorities.

In this scenario, it’s practically catch-22 for white-male owned small businesses. You can’t compete toe to toe with the big boys because of experience, yet you can’t compete on the small contracts cause you’re a whitey.

The only way whitey can get a break is to team with a minority company or use his wife to front the company. That’s the way it is played and if you don’t do it on principle, you’ll starve — that simple.

There is/was a logic to this madness, but like unions, has pretty much outlived its usefulness.

The question tho, with odds like this, why aren’t there a whole lot more successful blacks? For one, you can be sure that the black owners aren’t going to be overly generous with their windfall. Secondly because most blacks would rather work for someone else instead of themselves or they couldn’t run a business to save their lives due to mal-education.

Brotherbrown;

Who said my brother was complaining?????????? I believe I said that he and his friend were both quite happy. So, before you denigrate my comments as ‘typical’, get them straight. It makes for better dialogue.

Secondly, I would think that it is an acceptable thing for me to relay a family experience on this blog if it is related to the subject at hand. If you find my experience objectionable,that doesn’t change the reality of the experience. My experiences do not have to conform to your acceptable norms.

Third, the type of fiber optics jobs my brother was bidding on are incredibly limited in number in the US. Often, there is only one job available that is a fit for his tiny firm. When there is only one job available, the government cannot split it 92/8. By the way, it is far more than a 92/8, because there are preferences for women, and many other groups. And, if the overrepresentation in government jobs in the EEOC and education is so skewed, it is possible that there is more imbalance elsewhere than is widely known.

Fourth, I was trying to illustrate a point about how problematic it becomes when our government awards contracts strictly based on race or gender, without even a regard for who is doing the work. You glossed over that aspect of it. Those jobs become expensive if contracts are awarded without going to the lowest bidder.After watching my children working seven days a week to pay their taxes and living expenses, I have become very sensitive to where the money goes. Also, learning how to become competitive is better for everyone. Set asides often stifle that. And,when my brother’s friend bids on jobs, he does not hire minority individuals to do the work, as he said that they are more expensive for him, have other jobs, or have less competitive experience. That means that a government program, intended to foster work for minorities is helping one individual only, and others are not even getting work experience. Further, a system like this fosters resentment, which is ultimately bad for the unity of society. Today, my dentist’s receptionist said that her husband is considering suing the government, because he recently went for an interview for his dream job. The interviewer told him that he was the most well qualified candidate,and had an awesome interview, but they were looking for a minority female. Because Asian students are overrepresented in top tier colleges because of their extraordinarly level of achievement, they are starting to be denied positions at those colleges. My oldest brother received a 1600 on his SATs and was extraordinarily talented in several areas. He is now a neurologist, but he was denied a spot at Harvard. An admissions counselor told my parents that they were using all of their scholarships for affirmative action students. When someone’s dream is sacrificed to someone else’s quota, to make up for the sins of other people, one can’t hardly expect the person sacrificing their dream to be happy about it. In addition, inevitably, when work is awarded on the basis of race or gender, rather than competitiveness, excellence is compromised. And, preferences, whether fairly or unfairly, cast aspersions on the achievements of everyone, because, as LaShawn said, there is often no way to know if one made it strictly on merit. Ergo, other people wonder about it, too. I would hate that.

My last thought is that I simply don’t think that minorities need special help. It is my belief that there are enough talented, competent minority individuals around that they can get jobs/admissions on their own merit. Saying anything else is an insult.

I still say the Sudan has at least a million people who would LOVE to trade places with us and deal with our “racism”…

anyone want to trade??

So Cobra, as a Christian, I take it that you’ve forgiven those long gone and unable defend themselves to you for their antiquated conventional wisdom of the day? If so, why take certain passages out of context from the body of recorded history about what each has said and done with regards to slavery?

Likewise, I take it that you’ve forgiven and thanked those tribal enemies who captured and sold your ancestors off into slavery so that you could have a better life today than your cousins left behind over yonder? Where even today, real slavery is going on unabated between black on black and arab on black.

In any case, as far as we Americans are concerned, it’s all water under the bridge. Because basically, even while slavery was going on, America was heavily thinking and debating about the qualifications of blacks and their right to be masters of themselves.

And I’m against AA because I also believe there are racist notions coursing thru the veins of modern Americana as exhibited by Liberals who think that minorities are somehow deficient in intellectual and moral endowments and are in need of benevolent Massas to bring thim in out of the fields into the plantation house. As it did through the veins of black American “heroes” like Jesse, Al, Cynthia, Julian, Queasy Peewee, Byrd, Teddy & Conyers among others that the MSM/DNC still reveres to this day.

But in spite of the Dems & the KKK, we can all thank God for conservative fundamentalists who undertook the abolition banner, like Harriet Beecher Stowe, to free the slaves in the end.

And we can thank God for conservatives who are working today to free the mental slaves from emotional dependence on their economic Massas.

I hope one day you will be free of your mental bondage and come out of that viper pit.

Cobra wrote, ” I support Affirmative Action because I believe those racist notions are still coursing through the veins of America,”

You meant to write, “I support racism because I believe racist notions are still coursing through the veins of America.

Basically, from the gist of the statements in response to my post, the consensus among the posters here is that blacks should quiely suffer ANY and all indignities for the perpetuation and continued dominance of the Eurocentric culture in place.

I wish you all would just be honest and admit it, instead of attacking me for posting the FACTS about the white men idolized on currency.

George Washington CHOSE to own slaves and make the decisions he did on RACE. So did Thomas Jefferson. Abraham Lincoln’s words were DIRECT QUOTES from the most famous debate in the history of America. Roosevelt was on the record about his belief in white supremacy. These aren’t things I’ve made up out of thin air.

I don’t expect most white conservatives to see my point of view. My beliefs don’t work in their best interests. But if you’re going to sit here and tell me that African Americans were treated FAIRLY for the 4 centuries they’ve been on this continent, you’re insane.

–Cobra

La Shawn, I may have stepped over the line with my angry tone in the above post. If so, please feel free to delete it. I need to learn to shrug some things off, instead of getting all worked up.

Cobra;

Exactly what is it that you have endured today, and in your life, because of slavery, that has made you so bitter? Can you please be specific? I truly want to know what you think is so awful. Maybe it will help me understand where you are coming from. Many of us don’t have the scapegoat of slavery to blame for the suffering of our childhoods, but I would contend that our suffering was just as real. My husband’s grandfather was a German immigrant, who worked in a granite factory sixteen hours a day, hammering pylons into granite. He died very young,from overwork, poor nutrition, and breathing in granite dust, but he saved enough to send his son to school. My grandparents were Irish immigrants, and they were considered on a par with dogs in America when they first came. They did not make great decisions, and a number of them were alcoholics. Ergo, they were poor also. Slavery was a horrible horrible part of our American history, but it is not the explanation for all of the suffering in America. When I look at the suffering in my childhood, I know that it was a combination of being the child of immigrants, poor decisions, having lots of children, lack of education, and so on. As each generation came along, things got better and better. Cobra,do you ever look outside of yourself and see that lots of people in America suffer and that lots of your people have beautiful beautiful lives? Do you ever think that conservatives are searching for other reasons for poverty than slavery, because ultimately ’slavery as a sole explanation’ doesn’t help people out of their situation? It’s not that people are so diabolical, and want to blame the ‘victim’, but rather, that they want to come at the problem from a more effective angle than the ones that have been tried and failed. Also, there is simply too much empirical evidence to support slavery as being the root cause of all of the problems of the black community. It is far far too easy to simply dismiss all white and black conservatives as having malevolent intentions simply because you don’t like their ideas. When I think of the conservative approach to the black situation, such as that of Star Parker, all I see is compassion, not blame. You said that white conservatives won’t accept your ideas because they are not in their best interests. The reality is that white liberals make their living off of black poverty. There is an entire industry built up around keeping blacks poor,(and others), and in need of a hand-out. Where the heck is the dignity in that, and why would you want to wish that on anyone? It is totally in the best interests of the white and black liberals in this country to uphold a welfare/big government system based on paternalism. Conservatives have traditionally been about individual achievement, though they have succumbed far too much to the big government syndrome. So, truth is a demanding taskmaster, and, as redbeard said so beautifully, it comes with some good, some bad, and some ugly. It allows you a certain amount of righteous anger, but it also requires an acknowledgement of the part your own people played in slavery, including freed black men who owned slaves, and those in Africa who sold them. I had a child brutally raped by an illegal immigrant. She suffered horrendous consequences, physical and otherwise. He was screaming racial epithets at her as he raped her. Now, to me, it would be a strange thing indeed, if I took that rape and blamed the entire race for the sin of that demented man, even though his community refused to identify him. That would be the easy way out, because then I would not have to deal with forgiveness and my own feelings. And, my daughter, who had a rough couple of years, could use that to screw up the entire rest of her life. She had a choice to make, and she decided to get on with the business of living. I think we all need to just get on with the business of living.

Object Lesson #2 for Cobra
Due to the limitations of HTML options, the following plaintext excerpt are the words of the author & researcher and the italics are those of Abe. You can read the full analysis of at Abraham Lincoln’s Independence Day address of 1863 in Washington:
http://gurukul.american.edu/heintze/Lincoln.htm
Again, my emphasis in bold.

=========Begin Excerpt====
[SNIP]
A local newspaper described the event and the festive atmosphere:

Last evening, in response to a notice hastily given, a large assemblage of citizens gathered in front of the National Hotel, and, preceded by the band of the thirty- fourth Massachusetts Regiment, marched to the Executive Mansion, to offer their congratulations to the President upon the late successes of our Army and Navy. As the column marched up the Avenue it gained constant accessions, like a rolling snowball, and an immense crowd entered the space in front of the White House, about half past 8 o’clock.

Mr. Lincoln was at that moment absent at the War Department, but he promptly came over, and made his appearance at the window of the portico of the Executive mansion. When he stood before them, hearing the marks of the excessive labor and care that has fallen to his lot ever since he assumed the duties of his office, but wearing a smile of supreme satisfaction at the glorious events which his fellow-citizens were celebrating, vociferous cheers vent the air. The crowd cheered Abraham Lincoln, General Grant, General Meade, General Rosecrans, and President Lincoln again. (”The Rejoincings Last Night,” Daily National Republican, 8 July 1863, 2.)

Another Washington newspaper thought the crowd “numbered many thousands” (Washington Evening Star, 8 July 1863, 2). News of the event quickly spread along the Eastern seaboard. In a dispatch sent to New York, it was reported that “The news spread like wildfire through the city[Washington]. Flags were thrown from public and private buildings, and cheers given to all extent and with an enthusiam such as have rearely been paralleled here. The fact that the capture was made on the Fourth of July gave an added zest to the general satisfaction (New York Times, 8 July 1863, 1.) Even in the Confederate South, in Charleston, S.C., the “tremendous rejoicing all over the North” was reported. However, Lincoln’s address was referred to there as a “foolish speech” (Charleston Daily Courier, 13 July 1863, 1).

Lincoln’s July 7 speech was made available and was printed in newspapers across the country. A comparison of some of these reprintings of the speech reveals that the texts do not exactly match. Apparently, editors of these newspapers recopied the text and in so doing changed and deleted words which resulted likely in detracting from Lincoln’s intentions. Among the variant versions of the speech, I have selected that printed in the Washington Evening Star,8 July 1863, 2, because first, its a version closer to home, likely not having passed through as many hands, and second, its text displays more elegance than the others I have examined; it just seems more Lincolnesque:

Fellow-citizens: I am very glad to see you to-night. But yet I will not say I thank you for this call. But I do most sincerely thank Almighty God for the occasion on which you have called. [Cheers.] How long ago is it? Eighty odd years since, upon the Fourth day of July, for the first time in the world, a union body of representatives was assembled to declare as a self-evident truth that all men were created equal. [Cheers.]

Recent events bring up certain names, gallantly prominent, but I do not want to particularly name them at the expense of others, who are as justly entitled to our gratitude as they. I therefore do not upon this occasion name a single man. And now I have said about as much as I ought to say in this impromptu manner, and if you please, I’ll take the music. [Tremendous cheering, and calls for the President to reappear.]

It was reported in the Washington Evening Star that after Lincoln’s speech, there was music by the band and the crowd then went to the War Department to hear speeches by Secretary Stanton and others.

Object Lesson #3, 4 & 5 for Cobra
Rather than overstay my welcome with regards to La Shawn’s bandwidth, you can go read them. The point is that your contention that America did not think of the black and that racism courses thru her veins is a totally malicious fabrication of your twisted mind. Get on up outta that low-lying fevered swampland!!!

Lesson #3:Lincoln and Civil Rights for Blacks
By Mary Frances Berry

“Politicians in their speeches, writings, and actions must, as Kansas Senator Nancy Kassebaum recently stated, “strike the proper balance between a naive idealism and a craven pragmatism.”1 Abraham Lincoln was a politician who understood that political action is compromise. But the highest calling of the expert—successful—politician is making compromise creative and not corruptive. It is proper that successful politicians have always wanted to be both popular and political. Being popular is easier; it is accomplished by telling audiences what they want to hear—something that touches a responsive chord because it is consonant with their own personal experiences and beliefs. Being political is more difficult. It requires telling people what the politician wants them to hear in a way that they will be inspired to think differently and more sensitively about things. As we consider Lincoln, the successful leader and politician, dealing with the civil rights of Negroes, let us ask two questions. How much did he tell people what they wanted to hear, and how much did he give them a new sense of direction? Did he strike a proper balance between idealism and pragmatism? I believe he did. …”
WebSource: http://jala.press.uiuc.edu/2/berry.html

Lesson #4: Lincoln’s First Debate with Douglas at Ottawa, Illinois, 21 Aug 1858

“In 1858, Senator Stephen A. Douglas and Abraham Lincoln faced each other in a series of seven debates in the race for Illinois senator. The central question was whether slavery should be extended to the territories: Douglas and the Democratic party believed that the territories themselves should decide whether to allow slavery, whereas Lincoln and his new Republican party believed that slavery should be banned from the territories. The Dred Scott case of 1857 said that neither Congress nor a territorial legislature could exclude slavery from a territory and that no African American, slave or free, could be a citizen of the United States. …”
WebSource: http://www.learner.org/channel/workshops/primarysources/emancipation/docs/firstdebate.html

Lesson #5: Debating Douglas on the National Stage, 1857-1858
By R.D. Monroe, Ph.D.

“The Kansas-Nebraska Act reignited sectional tensions by opening free territory to slavery. The free-soil North and the proslavery South competed for dominance of the new Kansas territory, a competition that turned violent. When Democratic President James Buchanan accepted the proslavery Lecompton constitution for Kansas in order to placate an increasingly strident South, Stephen Douglas broke ranks with him and the Democratic party. The people of Kansas had rejected the Lecompton constitution and slavery in a referendum, and Douglas declared that to accept it in spite of that negative verdict would be a violation of popular sovereignty. He helped defeat the Lecompton constitution in Congress. Douglas had thus traveled a strange path from opening territory to the slaveholding South in 1854, to standing against slavery’s expansion into that same territory. His stand effectively split the Democratic Party. …”
WebSource: http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/biography7text.html

Contrary to Cobra and others insisting that this nation is secular, the truth is that our forefathers primary concern was ensuring the govt does not interfer with religion, while permitting Christianity to wholly guide and stamp its imprint & tenets on our govt.

We are indeed founded and supposed to be a Christian nation, all the while allowing people to believe otherwise, if they so chose in “sound” mind and clear conscience.

Secularism is what justifies slavery, abortion, AA and practically every other progressive nanny statism horror — for we have become gods unto ourselves and morality is whatever we think it to be.

Check out by Nathan Tabor’s America is “Grateful to Almighty God” blog post:

“Lately I have been doing some research onto the historical roots of American liberty, and what I have found concerning our nation’s Christian history has been particularly enlightening.

The language varies slightly from state to state, but the fundamental idea is the same. The people of each state, in setting up their new state governments, acknowledged both their gratitude to God as the source of their liberties, and their dependence upon His future guidance. …

Read the rest and be thankfull for our founding principles that directly made us the greatest nation in history:
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=7167

American exceptionalsim? You betcha!!!

RedBeard #29, You are a rhetorical powerhouse.

And might I say, “WOW Andy!”

Cobra, one small point. The amount of wealth held by blacks in this country dwarf the wealth of blacks in ANY OTHER country.

Sure the percentage of GDP attributed to blacks is not at 12% yet but it’s getting there and is much closer than ever before.

The object for some is not, “how do we get even for 4 centuries of mistreatment” because to do that would cause war and divisiveness.

The object for that some is, “how can we heal the wounds and eliminate any threads of lingering racism? Is it by preferential treatment based on race or elimination of preferential treatment and discrimination based on race.

As Ward Connerly prescribes, we can have outreach programs but not based on race but based on all who are economically and socially disadvantaged. Because to outreach to only poor blacks and ignore poor hispanics, asians and caucausians is simply racist Cobra. Is it not?

Geesh, you are about as blind and dumb as they come. Though you claim to state the facts, you can’t even deny the truth of anything I’ve said, instead you make silly distortions as if that would make your case any stronger.

If you want to pass blame around, don’t stop at whitey, go back into the jungles where our ancestors were losers, YES LOSERS! Losers because they were captured by rival tribes and sold to arabs and or white traders.

But even in “losing” they became winners thru the relative successes of their offsprings. Economically speaking, black Americans have it made compared to Africans, such that were a Black to go to Africa, he/she will be treated as a white man! How’s that for ironic?

But you want to wallow in self-pity of “racism exists because my ancestor was a slave” nonsense, go right ahead. It is plain to all that you are the RACIST and as such, you want to project it unto everything that you “think” stands in your way.

Aside from distorting all that I said, either that or you can’t read all that well — as Bak would say comphrension. I must admit I set you up.

For starters, you claim to be “christian” when convenient, but it is plain that you’re more of the liberation theology sort — a wolf in sheep’s clothing or as we say down south “snake in the grass”.

As Christians, we are taught to shrug off the injustices and stay focused on serving God. Take the story of Joseph, the story of Daniel & his friends or for a NT perspective, Onesimus.

By your own screed, if you were to trade places, the tale of Joseph according to Cobra:
1) A resentful slave doing just enough to avoid punishment — while the real Joe rose thru the ranks to become his master’s most trusted steward.
2) If tempted by Massah’s wife, you say I’m goona get my justice on that racist — while the real Joe fled.
3) If caught by Massah, killed on the spot — the real Joe gets tossed in jail.
4) If tossed in jail, you’d pout & cry and join NAI if they were around — the real Joe humbled himself before the Lord and thus was able to interpret the dreams of two fellow prisoners.
5) If by some miracle, you were brought before Pharoah, you would have gloated over his dream — the real Joe was elevated to Pharoah’s right hand
6) If you became the right hand man, you would have extracted retribution from your brothers when they show up looking for food — the real Joe wept for joy and heaped much blessings upon them.

Thru it all God was in control and had a purpose for greater good, even tho your mind can’t grasp it and never will as long as you let Satan hiss sweet nothings in your ear. Because you are incapble of understanding our peace, you attribute it to some sort of apologia for whitey.

That’s the difference between you and most of us here. We’ve forgiven “whitey” and moved on to make our way toe to toe with society. Christians can count it all for joy to suffer trials and tribulations.

We can always look on the bright side while all is doom and gloom in your miserable lair with your racists drawings.

May God continue to torment your heart until you see the light.

Andy writes:

>>>If you want to pass blame around, don’t stop at whitey, go back into the jungles where our ancestors were losers, YES LOSERS! Losers because they were captured by rival tribes and sold to arabs and or white traders.”

You’re going to accuse ME of posting something insidious, yet turn around and call MILLIONS of Africans put into chattel slavery “losers?” Why? Because they were captured? Hunted down? Tricked? Deceived? Kidnapped? Does your definition of “loser” cover EVERYONE IN HISTORY to have ever been “captured”, “hunted down”, “tricked”, “deceived” or “kidnapped?”. That’s a big world history, Andy. Lots of people are “captured” by opposing forces. In fact, you quote the Bible so often…answer me this…weren’t the Jews under ROMAN OCCUPATION and RULE during the time of Christ? And if they were…how would your definition cover their status? Given your equations, you’d be on the verge of blasphemy if you follow it to the logical conclusion.

And then, back to black people.. oh…just skip a few centuries here and there and make a statement that slavery was somehow a “winning” proposition, because 400 years LATER, African Americans can make a living here…something you seem to feel IMPOSSIBLE no place else on earth, especially on the continent of Africa.

Are you kidding me? Who TAUGHT you this self-loathing? Who told you that there is no black life on earth worth living outside of these borders? You know, it’s funny…I’ve chatted with many black conservatives in my experiences, and we would amicably debate on politics, or economic strategies. I rarely ever come across a person so dismissive of his own talents, capacities and confidence that he would actually believe that he would be less than what he is without the “benefits” of the chattel slave trade.
You should take a bow, because your act is without peer, IMHO.

You’re hysterical, Cobra. Black Americans are better off than blacks anywhere on the planet. Unlike you, I have no illusions about the continent of Africa and black Africans’ place in history. One look at self-ruled African countries with their black African leaders should tell you all you need to know about what’s come out of Africa. There is nothing self-loathing about saying that blacks are better off here than anywhere else, and that black Americans are indeed fortunate NOT to live in Africa. If you don’t think so, I think you should go on an exploratory mission for six months, return to LBC, and report your findings. I’m sure your experience will be eye-opening, to say the least. And why don’t you have equally harsh words toward modern-day black African and Arab slave traders? You’re obsession with what the “white man” has done is comical. – Admin

Redbeard writes:

>>>Cobra, I’m done trying to communicate with you, since doing so is proving about as effective as trying to communicate with a cast iron cook stove.
You refuse to even acknowledge anyone else’s points.”

Your idea of “communication” seems to mean you posting, and me agreeing with your posts. That’s not MY idea of communication. If anything, I certainly acknowledge posts targetted at me. My disagreement with those posts doesn’t mean I don’t “acknowledge” them.
You can continue to defend the indefensible if you wish. That’s your perogative. I don’t have any responsibility to AGREE with you, no matter how “right” you think you are. Also, you seem to conflate my disagreeing with you, with:

>>>”Your mission in life, apparently, is to wallow in misery and negativity, feeding your hatred, cultivating it, making it grow like an out-of-control weed patch.”

Misery? Negativity? Again, because I disagree with you, and pull up HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION to support my statements, I’m “miserable and negative?” You need to see the smile on my face typing these posts in. If you’re not up to having somebody actually CHALLENGE your viewpoints, why are you posting to a blog that can be read by anybody in the world? (including black people in Africa, Andy. They actually have the internet there, too. FYI)

Unbelievable.

–Cobra

Cobra, last comment and I’m done with you.
1) Everytime the Jews were in captivity, it was a result of their disobedience to God. In fact, I’ve said it before, all that ails & bedevils us is a result of sin. And where it really matters the most, we’re all losers when we stand before the judgement seat without the blood of redemption. Pull up the only Source that matters.

2) What makes you think I’m unaware of the power of the internet for change in Africa? If I were to fly there tomorrow, I’d be at home among more friends than I have here.

3) Everything else is a distortion of what I’ve said.

Bye!

La Shawn, thanks for that book link. Out of America sounds like a worthy read.

At the risk of boring everyone’s pants off, here’s a little true story:

Some time ago I was a struggling entrepreneur, cash poor, but with a good little foundation of a company. I took in a “money” partner. Worst mistake I’ve ever made. The man turned out to be a thief, a liar, and a degenerate. I should have been more careful at the start, and investigated further. He cheated on his wife, he lied to everyone (customers, family, and me), and he helped himself to small bits of company assets whenever he thought he could get away with it. When I came to full realization of what sort of a snake I had teamed with, I ended the partnership, and immediately started a new company in competition with him.

My anger toward this man and the hurt he had caused me was white hot. It was the sort of hatred that sometimes can lead to violence. I wanted revenge in the worst way. My plan was to fight him in the marketplace, targeting his customers and taking them away one by one, thereby winning the battles in this great war. Sending his company to its grave became an obsession with me. Every day was a struggle.

Luckily for me, a friend, someone who had been watching the drama, had a long talk with me one day. He advised me to stop being angry, to totally ignore my ex-partner, and to focus 100% on the positive aspect of running my own firm properly. He said that it’s easy to wallow in the negative and concentrate on all the wrongs one has suffered at the hands of others, but that it’s a dead-end path. It took some doing on my friend’s part, over a period of time, but he convinced me that hate is a truly lousy motivator.

After I “saw the light” it was absolutely amazing how my business fortunes improved. The company grew at a rapid pace, and has been a solid enterprise ever since. I haven’t seen my ex-partner in years, and don’t even think of him very often. I can’t adequately thank my friend enough for putting me on the right track.

Ok, too many words, I know. I’ll shut up now.

Where to start here?

Let me first say that I’m amazed how simply relaying accurate history fires up so many people.
Most of your arguments aren’t against me, folks. You have a problem with American history and statistics, which is exactly what I cite here to support my posts.
You can live in denial, and not believe Presidents could be racist, or own slaves. You can live in denial and not believe that it took nearly two centuries for black people to get full civil rights on paper, and there was still serious opposition to it from white conservatives. You can live in denial about wage inequities among women and minorities in America:

>>>The Equal Pay Act was signed in 1963, making it illegal for employers to pay unequal wages to men and women who hold the same job and do the same work. At the time of the EPA’s passage, women earned just 58 cents for every dollar earned by men. By 2003, 40 years later, that rate had only increased to 76 cents, an improvement of less than half a penny a year. Minority women fare the worst. African-American women earn just 65 cents to every dollar earned by white men, and for Hispanic women that figure drops to merely 54 cents per dollar.”
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html

So by the STATISTICS, (not my own evaluation), it may indeed be better to live as an African American than as a Black African for the most part, but it is undeniably better to live as a White American Male than all the other groups in question. So why attack the messenger when there is a definitive disparity, LaShawn?
It’s also interesting there are many who seem to live in denial about European colonization. America was a product of European colonization if you recall. What was the effect of that colonization on the quality of life of Native Americans and African Americans ONE CENTURY after the European nation in charge was kicked out? If your collective claims are that it was “great”, you’re living in denial. Therefore, it’s interesting to compare the quality of life of Africans, removed from colonial rule only decades ago, with the similar time frame of African Americans decades removed from the Revolution. How do the chips stack up there?

***
When I called you hysterical, I didn’t mean hysterical-funny. The fact that it may be better to live as a “White American Male” than any other group is not something I spend a lot of time thinking about, and I’m frankly surprised that someone like you is so obsessed with whites, how they live and what they think. I’m grateful beyond words that I live as an American, regardless of how “better” it is to be this race or that.

Please don’t take my refusal to waste brain cells and space to address each of your hysterical statements as denial or inability to refute or deal with your points. Your comments so far on LBC have been somewhat empty, cut-and-paste routines signifying…not much. Just the same tired lines I usually hear from black liberals. I sometimes think you comment just for sport, to bait people into wasting time with non sequiturs so typical of people like yourself. What drew you to this blog, I have no idea, but this is what a blogger with public commenting has to deal with, I suppose. – Admin
***

Andy writes:

>>>1) Everytime the Jews were in captivity, it was a result of their disobedience to God. In fact, I’ve said it before, all that ails & bedevils us is a result of sin. And where it really matters the most, we’re all losers when we stand before the judgement seat without the blood of redemption. Pull up the only Source that matters.”

So, by your interpretation, the millions of Africans transported on white owned and operated slave ships were either 1) “Losers” or 2) Being punished by God for their sins.
…
Hmmm. Fascinating outlook on life, Andy. All victims of crime or war are “losers”, and ANYTHING bad that happens is punishment by God for your sins.
And people in here are insinuating that I have a complex?

Jan writes:

>>>And, if statistics and research are so important to you, why have you never addressed the unbelievable statistic that Larry Elder speaks of concerning violent crime between the races, and the fact that 90% of it is black on white.”

First of all, I’m quoting Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln. You’re quoting a radio talk show host and wannabe television star. Do you see the DIFFERENCE in gravitas? Second, your facts on violent crime are skewed. You’re not giving the entire picture.
From the BUSH ADMINISTRATION’S DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE:
“Overall, when comparing whites, blacks, and all persons of other races, blacks had the highest violent crime victimization rates.”
“In 2003–

Per every 1,000 persons in that racial group, 29 blacks, 22 whites and 16 persons of others races sustained a violent crime.
Black and white persons experienced statistically similar rates of simple assault.
Black, white, and other races experienced similarly rates of rape/sexual assault.
According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports, in 2002 about 49% of murder victims were white, 49% were black, and 3% were Asians, Pacific Islander, and Native Americans.”
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_v.htm

And what is the definition of “violent crime?”
>>>Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. According to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program’s definition, violent crimes involve force or threat of force.”
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nviolent02.html

In the year 2002, 446,365 people were arrested for violent crime, of which 266,681 were White.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/arrested/04-table43.html

That means 59.7% of all people arrested for violent crimes were WHITE PEOPLE.

Now Jan, are you going to believe Larry Elder, or your own lying eyes with these statistics?
Work those statistics, Jan, and you’ll see that that Elder’s interracial crime line is not as cut and dry as you would like to believe.
That’s kind of person I am. I don’t parrot pundits and talk show hosts. I research for myself, get the direct quotes, and make my own evaluations. Also, I challenge people who make statements I don’t believe are accurate.

Jan writes:

>>>They were so incredibly focused on educating their kids, that none of them ever bought themselves beds, even though we were paying them extremely well. And, their wives worked with their kids for four hours a day on average, after school. It was amazing. I never saw anything like it. The guys didn’t see their families for several years at a time. They were from Nepal, Bombay, Kerala, Sri Lanka, and the Philipines. I was very very humbled, and I learned that I had an enormous amount to learn about living.”

You realize that the lifestyle you’re depicted is collectivism with leanings toward socialism. I’m not knocking it, but that is NOT the message embraced by conservatives, who believe in individualism and for the most part, social darwinism.
Jan writes:

>>>By the way, after spending twenty-four years in the Middle East helping people from third world countries to start businesses, who had no beds, were incredibly emaciated, and who lived on fifty dollars a month or less, I can tell you that they were far more joyful than you are.”

You shouldn’t be directing that comment at ME. You should be directing it to people like Andy and LaShawn, who seem to feel, based upon their comments here, that there is NO JOY in the world possible outside of American citizenship.

Baklava writes:

>>>What would make you happy Cobra?”
…I only wish for a response to the first question. Thanks. ”

Then why did you pile on the rest of the stuff about “marriage counceling”, and psycho therapy?

I will answer you question, though. My joy is personal. It comes from the realization of my passions in life. I won’t go into detail because, like I said, it’s personal. But if you feel that one can’t be happy unless one agrees in lockstep with posters on a blog, well…
I don’t know if any of my answers will ever satisfy you.

Whew. That was easy. Don’t you just love the spirit of pleasant discourse and conversation?

–Cobra

Go Jan !!!!

All this moral relativist tripe to rebut Andy, Renee, Jan and others is sickening. No matter how you put it, you cannot make up for past, current or future wrongs by doing something that is just as patently, morally and unadulterated wrong. Only people who have sold out their belief in any concept of right and wrong would ever believe so. But then again, that is easy to see as moral relativists believe that nothing is absolutely right or wrong. Somehow I keep coming back to the thought that one day we’re all going to know something about absolute right or wrong.

If there are disparities between groups then the disparities need to be made up with solutions that are better and have longer lasting benefits than this sorry nonsense we see thrown out at us. Are we so stupid to think that in a nation of so much wealth, education, creativity and intellect that we can’t come up with a better solution than Affirmative Action to our ills? I suppose we are. Problem is, the status quo is just too easy and rights peoples desires to get back, to have revenge, to stick it to people that have done injustice in the past. Feel good policies get us nowhere, and to think that we aren’t smart enough, creative enough or responsible enough to do otherwise is totally insulting. I wonder why more people aren’t insulted. Probably because they’re too worried about getting theirs and sticking it to someone else.

Cobra #50,

You didn’t answer my question.

My question was, what would make you happy. It was concerning this country and policy and legislation.

Who would have to do what and when and why and how before you stop writing with so much criticism of this country the founders the current policies. What would FINALLY make you happy?

Jan,

I never called you a racist or a liar. I simply referenced the common phrase, “do you believe me or your lying eyes.” And of course I can slam Larry Elder. Who is Larry Elder? Is he is above criticism, now?
It was YOU who introduced the irrelevant topic of interracial crime into this thread. You also realize, as the apparent “arbitor” of crime statistics that most violent crime, murder in particular, is INTRARACIAL, which is predictable in a widely segregated society like America.

>>>Data continue to indicate that murder is most often intraracial. In 2000, 93.7 percent of black murder victims were slain by black offenders and 86.2 percent of white murder victims were slain by white offenders.”
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/cius2000.htm

You didn’t mention this, and I won’t assume your motivations for doing so. But if you do a Google Search on that 90% stat, you’ll find a host of sites trumpeting the stat that I can assume the motivation for, including sites by David Duke, “White Revolution”, and the “National Association for the Advancement of White People.”

I simply responded with my own opinions based upon facts.

You call me “arrogant”, yet you fill your posts with self-congratulatory comments like:
“In addition, I contacted the FBI, as well as many criminologists around the US, and have done a great deal of research on the subject…”

AND…

“Incidentally, what I did with the guys from these other countries was give them a start, where there were no possibilities in their world before”

Hello? You mean to tell me that no one but JAN can study and post crime statistics? You’re going to tell me that people in the third world would be LOST without your help?

And you have the nerve to call ME “arrogant?”

Moreover, I try especially hard to SOURCE my opinions, with links whenever possible to news articles, direct quotes, statistical charts and documentation so that people like you can’t accuse me of making this stuff up. Now, of course, as Baklava later suggests, there are other sources that may have different conclusions. You can choose to believe those other sources, but I usually pick the sources that aren’t trying to sell books to a non-minority demographic, hence the pro-status quo skewing of data. Gender wage inequity and glass ceilings, much like RACIAL wage inequity and glass ceilings have so many available sources in non-profit government studies that one or two conservative authors cannot refute them with any sense of reality, IMHO. I mean, if I were to list a dozen class action lawsuit findings on gender and race discrimination in employment and wages, what conservative author would you pull up to dispute the court findings?

Again, I will remind you, and all other posters eager to villify me that my response on this thread about “quotas” was the notion LaShawn raised here:

“>>>”My qualifications will always be in doubt because of paternalistic and misguided “help” from white social engineers.””

I simply responded with a FACTUAL posting about what REVERED and HONORED Presidents actually thought about African Americans and their qualifications long before “white social engineers” (isn’t that what I’m accused of doing? Blaming white people?) even discussed Affirmative Action.
Your response to the actual facts about the blatantly racist Presidents I listed was that I forgot to mention that “blacks commit 90% of interracial violent crimes between blacks and whites”, which would probably put some MORE doubt into the minds of potential employers about black qualification, personal annecdotes about your family, which I will not comment on out of respect, and a defense of the status quo.
In fact, the majority of posters who oppose me defend the American system, with a token mention about inequity, more than balanced out with statements blaming blacks themselves for whatever situation they found themselves in, from slavery to Jim Crow to being paid less than whites for the same job. It’s absolutely amazing, and I for one am glad that at least I’m on the record opposing this ideology for any internet surfer to witness.
My conscience will be crystal clear on this one, folks.

–Cobra

Cobra;
1.I simply brought up the 90% statistic to show you that therre was more than one side to the equation, and that you needed to look at more that just the horrible things that whites had done, which I acknowledged. I brought up something horrible to rebut something horrible.In that sense, it was not irrelevant. The intention was to jar you into realizing that all of the wrongdoing is not a one way street. I was referring to redbeard’s statement that truth comes in the good, the bad, and the ugly, and that you cannot just look at what has been done to you. That’s all.

2. I brought up my research after you slammed me for using Larry Elder as a source, not before. I brought it up in response to your continual touting to everyone, Baklava and others, how superior your research is, and how tainted theirs is. I simply find that notion juvenile.

3. You referred to my ‘lying eyes’. That is tantamount to calling me a liar.

4. Of course most crime is intraracial. Anyone who has taken a 101 class knows that. Once again, that just is not what we were talking about, but you have a great deal of difficulty staying on topic. I was talking about one thing specifically, and you seem to get angry that I didn’t talk about something else. That’s a difficult way to conduct a conversation.

5.By the way, I never knew there were NAAWP, David Duk,or a White Revolution Sites, until you told me. I guess you must be familiar with them for some reason. I got my figures off of FBI sites. In reality, I discovered the statistics on interracial crime one day when I was researching Mathew Shepard’s case, as I knew Mathew. He grew up in Saudi Arabia. While I was on the FBI site reading the facts of hate crimes towards gays, I saw the stats for the other. That’s all. A lot less diabolical than you thought. Once again, you have made ugly assumptions to make yourself angry. What an imagination used for a sad pupose! You think you know a lot about other people. You don’t!

6. Baklava points out how you misuse statistics. You do it all the time to prove a one sided view. Statistics have a genesis, that lends them significance. In and of themselves, they are often meaningless. I simply believe that if you really wanted the truth, you would look at all sides.

7. Who the heck said that Larry Elder was above criticism? I merely said that he was not the source of my statistics, but the he had confirmed them in his book which had thirty-eight pages of end notes.

8. Once again, slavery and all that went with it was HORRIBLE. Racism is HORRIBLE. Unlike you, though, I find it horrible wherever I find it. I found the slavery in Saudi Arabia to be utterly shocking, just as I did the slavery in the US. The US Dept. of State lists 72 nations that aid slavery or are home to it, including Brazil, china, and the Czech Republic. And, I refuse to close my eyes to the ugliness of it anywhere I find it, or racism either. I have never thought that two wrongs make a right. So, when Farrakhan refers to whites collectively as the anti-Christ or says that “white people are potential humans….they haven’t evolved yet”, or Malik Shabazz at a 2002 protest in front of the Bnai B’rith building in DC says “Kill every god—- Zionist Jew in Israel. god—- little babies. god—- old ladies. Blow up Zionist supermarkets. The better to kill Zionist babies and Zionist grandmothers,”and he is endorsed by Bill Clinton to lead the Million Man March Oct.14-15,2005, this feels wrong to me. What I don’t understand is why this doesn’t feel wrong to everyone. I don’t think this is good for our country.

9. I bring this up so that you can see that the ugliness is not all on the part of white people whome you seem to feel are so despicable. Frankly, I haven’t the foggiest notion of what it is that you want the average white person to do to make up for peole who were not ever their ancestors. I keep trying to figure out, realistically, what we can do to change the system, and make it better for everyone. I see my kids working senven days a week, married to minorities. I know they have no money left, and I know they aren’t ugly to others….What is it that the average person is supposed to do? I see that what we are doing now isn’t working as a country. It seems like what we are doing now is creating a victim mentality that is making the hatred grow. That can’t be good. I see increasing divisiveness. Also, for sure, when you constantly tell a group of people how horrible they are, and demand things of them, there is bound to be a feeling of unfairness. This is not going to help us either. Just looking at where feminists have headed, and so many of their attitudes about males has ben very divisive. so, you can make whatever assumptions you want about me being a horrible person. I accept that not everyone is going to like me, respect me, or whatever. I truly had hoed that this blog would be a wonderful forum for change, and that it would be a fulcrum for unity. That was my prayer.

Can anyone else out there help me here. what do you other guys think? I am overwhelmed with this subjuect and Cobra’s misinterpretation of every comment I make. Basically, it would appear that I am not allopwed to express my views as they don’t align up with his.

Dear LaShawn;

Thanks for the opportunity to share on this blog. I feel like I am slogging through a tremendous amount of animosity from a number of people and can’t do it anymore. Having spent my whole life in a world where color just didn’t matter very much, I have returned to this country and found that it matters for everything. When my kids married people from other countries, we never even had a conversation about it…that’s just how they grew up. But, writing on this blog, I realize that every word I say gets scrutinized for meanings that were never intended. It’s so demoralizing, so antithetical to stimulating discussion, and it makes me sad. Good luck on your future endeavors. You have an enormous amount of talent, and you got where you are right now on your own steam…..

Raymond;

You are so right. I just have never encountered anything like this before. Also, I experienced this on a couple of other commentaries. And, I am signing off for the future. I’m in tears, and I can’t imagine that this ‘hate’ could be good for me to listen to day after day. I get called enough names in my own neighborhood, in person by people just walking down the street, when I say hello. I anguish for that place where my five kids were running in and out of the door laughing with their friends from fifty different countries, and no one thought anything about it. I guess I was just being so naive when I thought that my words could make a difference to anyone.

Thanks for your loving support, y’all. I’ll keep reading your postings.

It’s not that serious..It’s the INTERNET for goodness sakes. I get mad too and I take a break and then I come back. Simple as that.

But I do think that Cobra raises a good point. People do get mad if you don’t agree with them and resort to name calling which in turn defeats the purpose of dialogue.

You have to get a little thick skinned around here.

Jan,

You have touched my heart with your writings a few times. I’ve struggled with similar issues. One of my pet peeves is the name calling and almost utter hatred for conservatives by liberals. They think we are evil and mean-spirited.

I point out repeatedly that we all want solutions but we just have different ones. If you look at racism – conservatives try to get to an end of racism and racial harmony via ending racial preferences. If you look at strengthening the economy – conservatives try to help businesses help the economy and hire people by tax cuts.

I fail sometimes in letting comments get to me. When I fail, I find a break helps. I love politics and I know it’s in your blood to. I want to see your writings and I hope you can find the strength to continue.

This is great. It used to be that I was just called a liberal. Now I am a tool in service of Satan.

This blog never ceases to amaze me.

–Cobra