Richard O. Jones writes: “I often wonder why African American activists and concerned community members rush to rally against the police department oÂn a regular basis at the slightest hint of impropriety but are conspicuously absent in the confrontation against criminals, except for sex offenders that is.”
During the brief time I spent working with undercover detectives and FBI agents who investigated gang activity, their #1 complaint was the refusal of witnesses to come forward. (The #2 complaint was being cursed out by people who didn’t think crimes were being solved quickly enough. Hard to do with unwilling witnesses.)
Granted, gang thugs are known to kill witnesses; in fact, certain members seemed to be “in charge” of killing people who saw murders being committed. Who wants to tell the cops what they know only to see the perp walk and themselves staring into the barrel of a gun, the last sight they’ll ever see?
It’s so bad out there that witnesses and informants didn’t want to be seen entering and exiting the U.S. Attorneys Office, the “snitch” building, a phrase used by the thugs who intimidate and the people they terrorize. Yet, racism is the biggest problem in the “black community,” right?
Jones points out that there’s no shortage of community action against the police. At the slightest hint of so-called police brutality, the Jacksons, Sharptons, and their flunkies are summoned from wherever they hibernate during slow news cycles. He also mentions a few un-PC things about poor parenting, which is also a menace to society.
{ 73 comments }
Really good points and good to know. People have to stand up to the gangs if they are going to defeat them.
Here in Chicago, the largest and most powerful black gang, the Gangster Disciples, has an interesting gambit that makes police work very difficult. Their “colors” are over-sized, crisp white T-shirts, with a “wife-beater” (sleeveless T) worn underneath.
On the west side, where the gang is most prevelant, EVERYONE wears oversized crisp white T-shirts. The gang is so feared that people wear the shirts to be recognized as a supporter, or at least not a dissenter (more common, I suppose…). The end result is that when a robbery or a shooting takes place, the perp is always described as “a black guy in a white T-shirt”…which, of course, describes every guy in the hood.
And then our people wonder why our communuities are like war zones. Sorry I hadn’t been here in a while LaShawn but I’m pleased that you brought up this topic. I and my dad have complained for years about these retreads in our communitity keeping mess and hell going on by sticking up for such individuals. It seems lost on a lot of our people that we are our own worst enemies. Black people are against the death penalty but don’t have the sense enough to realize that we are the victims of these people. It isn’t the cops that are making us unsafe it is these pondscum that Ken Hamblin calls “the poverty Pimps” under which Sharpton and Jackson would qualify. Also, why do our people raise hell and destroy their communities in riots when the cops accidentally in most cases shoots or even kills someone, but when they do it nothing is said!its Like these folks get laryngitis or something. That is the height of hypocracy! also black folks are gonna have to change their damnable philosophies on issues as it relates to crime. 1. stop sticking up for your relatives that have chosen a life of crime. 2. stop blaming white folks for your self inflicted wounds. 3.T ake responsibiblity for your communities and make them safe. 4. Do a better job of electing politicians to public office. You all always get these lingunine spined,weak on crime types and they make your city unsafe as well as the neiborhoods in which you live.
An interesting article, and comments. I applaud those who can address the reality that a lot of problems are self-inflicted, like the high crime rates in poor neighborhoods. Until local people support the police, rather than the criminal, nothing will change.
I agree with everything Lisa Gilliam says. Perhaps if black voters stopped voting for the Democrats, they might get a better politician. Exactly what have Democrats done for them in the last 40 years?
Can we back off from the generalizations? From this post and the comments it sounds like all black people live in Compton and are either in a gang or running from one.
The number one problem in poor urban communities of any ethnicity that have a high spike in violent crime is lack of local community control through ownership.
Just two weeks ago I was a presenter on our local Fox affiliate, when they did a prime time special on the spate of violence we have been having here in Omaha, primarily gang driven.
These crimes and gangs are sustained by the underground narcotics economy, which presents itself as a natural but illegal alternative to the regular business sector for urban young men. In other words they aren’t killing themselves for no reason. It is a ground control and turf control reason. To attempt to eliminate gangs and drugs without local control of homes, properties and business is backwards and virtually impossible as all you will ever do is treat the symptoms and not the disease.
Statistics prove over and over again, that ownership creates an increased stability and sense of community. Business ownership invest the locally owned and controlled businesses to “self-police”.
In the majority of these areas where these killings occur, the gangs control the turf as opposed to home and business owners, these are typically housing projects, high rental areas with absentee or slum landlording, and a lack of locally controlled business if any.
As you reduce poverty, statistics ALWAYS say you reduce crime, poverty reduction is done through economic development.
Walter Williams had an article today about how the Civil Rights movement needs to redirect its resources from simply fighting racism. I agree, I have been arguing for years now that economic development and increasing competitive capitalism in urban inner city environments is the only way to truly eliminate the core problems in the urban communities.
This is really two discussions. The first is how to reduce crime, the second is how to reduce police brutality. Look at it practically.
By it’s very nature, the first one is complex because the sum of all criminal behavior is not an organized, coordinated event, but rather, a series of independent activities, sometimes carried out by multiple people. Professional crime fighters, police, can only be proactive in “preventing” crime to a point; mostly they investigate crimes and attempt to bring someone to justice. Knowing that police cannot protect each individual citizen, people are going to be pragmatic.
The second discussion, reducing police brutality, is what responsible police professionals should encourage citizens to become involved in, and police agencies are organized with a chain of command and operating procedures to help create consistency in it policing of the community. In the last 3 months, there have been two incidents in the LA area, one involving LAPD, the other involving LASO, where multiple live rounds were fired by multiple officers in an effort to apprehend a suspect. Just yesterday, another local police agency apprenhended a high speed chase suspect by firing pepperballs–non-leathal rounds–until the suspect was subdued.
Police are held to a higher standard than criminals. If protests lead to improved police procedures, the entire community benefits. Protesting criminals will lead to what? A dangerous situation.
Dell,
Poverty doesn’t just cause crime. Crime also helps perpetuate poverty. Morality and community mindedness also play into criminal behaivor.
As for the issue of homeownership, with a high crime rate, and often ridiculous city land prices and taxes, why would somebody who has saved up buy a house in these neighborhoods? This is a large factor in so called white flight (actually, every group has left the inner city as their economics allowed). My ex, a high minded liberal, bought a house in Germantown for nearly 200 grand. You can’t walk the streets at night, and all the windows have bars. But she wan’t to bring back the neighborhood, and she and her roomate have mortgaged themselves up to their eyes to buy this house, put a new roof on it, and try to repair the structural damage.
Personally, I’d like to see urban centers get a residence tax break (like no property tax for 10 years for homeowners, no renters) and increased patrolling. Maybe a mandatory civil watch (you want your tax break, you have to be in the neighborhood watch).
“Our People”….Are you seperating yourself from other people in America? Last I heard we’re ALL Americans and skin color shouldn’t matter, hence the desegregation of schools (supposedly).
Until people stop the “I’m white and you’re not” or “I’m black and you’re not” garbage, and start seeing people as people, there will always be segregation. Even if it’s nothing the Government can stop.
SCI – I do this stuff for living. I know what I am talking about and have seen it work
I didn’t say, ‘Poverty’ causes crime, I said poverty and crime are correlated, and as poverty is reduced so is crime which is a big difference.
There are numerous models of urban redevelopment that strikes at the roots of these issues. As BrotherBrown mentioned above, the police aren’t designed to be preventative in nature, and we overburden our police department when we expect them to do so.
We are talking about infastructure issues or lack thereof. If you change the infastructure, you change behavior. Period. To change infastructure you need resources, as long as local community churches hoard funds, and local non-profits misdirect their resources to symptomatic control, as opposed to elimination of disease, (like walter williams said http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050817.shtml)
Then we will always be on the back end on the issues of urban poverty and crime as opposed to the front end.
If I can light it up for a second here. Let’s call a spade a spade. There are Black people and there are Americans who happen to have darker skin. For lack of a better term, we’ll just call the latter Americans.
Black People 101
- Black people are wary and fearful of the police
- Americans respect the police and the difficult and dangerous job they do
- Black people hate the police yet complain when they don’t respond quickly enough
- Americans understand that policemen have families too and understand why police take their time going into ghettos where they will be confronted with cursing, racial slurs, rocks, bottles, gunfire, lawsuits and videocameras
- Black people react to crime with marches, speeches and calling the local buffoon-of-the-cloth
-Americans seek to prevent crime by electing the best candidates as opposed to the blackest and the “realest.
- Black people complain, whine and moan
-Americans define, solve and put in measures to prevent further harmful conditions
- Black people complain about the evil government and its conspiracies.
-Americans respect the government yet apply Constitutional checks and balances and ask appropriate questions and/or speak truth to power when necessary
- Black people beg from the government they so hate
-Americans do everything they can to relay as little on the government as possible
- Black people are eternally offended
- Americans are offended by the eternally offended
- Black people celebrate the crime culture (Rappers calling themselves “Scarface”, “Noriega”, “Capone”, “Machiavelli”, “C-Murder”, gangstas, etc.
- Americans see crime for what it is. Harmful to people and to the nation.
“Black” as it is defined now is not something I choose to be a part of of. Call me crazy, but when I think of the term “black” I think of Affirmative Action, Congressional Black Caucus, Louis Farrascam, Jesse Jackson, TD Fakes, Creflo Getyour Dollarz, 70% out of wedlock birth rate, AIDS out of control, violent crime, poverty, anger, hip-hop, poor education, excuses, racism, celebration of mediocrity, BET, The Source Awards, and drugs.
When I think American, I think outstanding sports, political, economic, business and humanitarian achievement, Raymond, LaShawn Barber, Sarah Vaughn, Aretha Franklin, JCWatts, Condoleeza Rice, Clarence Thomas, Mae Jemison, Guion Bluford, Johnny Cochran, Reginald Lewis, Gen, “Chappy” James, The Tuskegee Airmen, etc.
I’ll just stick with heing called human or American. Thanks!
Raymond, you just made my day!
I reject your definition of black people.
#12. Your rejection makes it no less true. In fact, YOUR rejection confirm’s its truth.
Raymond, you must be the least politically correct person I know, and that’s why you are so intriguing to read……Americans are lookin’ better all the time.
For those wishing for a “revival” of “inner cities” – keep wishing. That’s all you can do.
In our capitalist society, this has been tried for a generation, but it hasn’t worked most places. For investors, it’s like throwing money away – if such programs can’t work without heavy subsidy, they will fail. And they have.
The biggest issue of all is security. And herein lies the problem with Leftist leadership, as in Los Angeles and elsewhere.
Law enforcement officials and politicians hate “proactive policing” the out of date, living in the 60’s “Race Warlords” obstruct proactive policing. But this is the only thing that works.
Oakland CA had a waterfront that was “alive” – because Mayor Brown and others see law enforcement as vital to the survival of the City.
But liberals buying $200, 000 houses in the ghetto will do NOTHING – except make the liberals feel warm and fuzzy about “caring for the poor”.
These gangs are terrorists, just like the KKK was. And like radical Islamists, they can’t be negotiated with – they must be put out of business – preemptively – just like the KKK and the Mafia.
So you blame black people for all america’s ills, and I suppose a lot of people agree with that. What else is new.
But it’s nonsense. And you know it.
I dunno Raymond, by your definitions, I know alot of white people that really must be black.
Sadly, there are plenty of non-black American’s that don’t live up to the definition you posted.
Dell,
I think we are on the same page, for once. The comunities have to want change, and something must be done to encourage and retain the “good seeds”.
I was raised to tell the truth therefore being politically correct is anathema to my internal coding.
You are not telling the “truth,” you are being as obnoxious as possible.
You can’t peel away “good” black people, strip away their blackness, put them in the “American” category, and lay all societal ills at the feet of black people. I take that back, you can, but it makes everything else you say in this topic worthless.
#6. Who was that post directed at?
Frank, did I not tell you that this is what I do? I can site definitive examples of localized success stories. In addition, urban redevelopment is becoming the new national mantra, with two choices occurring, A) Genetrification or B) Urban participation as urban infrastructure in terms of pre-existing buildings and location once again become attractive and urban sprawl becomes an issue.
It is not necessary for liberals to buy $200K houses in poor environments, but it is important for individuals of lower income to own their homes in this environment.
Secondly, rarely does the government in local instances take pro-active steps to redevelop urban communities, but from a holistic perspective, this is the only way that makes ultimate sense if you truly want to invigorate local economies. Economic theory states that as the lowest on the economic scale improve, it improve the overall economy exponentially.
BUT, individuals typically of your mentality have a short sighted and myopic view of the necessity and the value of what urban economic development can provide and instead fall back on the same cliches of ‘poor morality, low work ethic and leftist exploitation’ etc and suffer the tax consequences of that behavior.
Walter Williams did speak of redirecting funds away from civil rights, but not toward infrastructure, such as housing. He spoke of the need to address illegitimacy rates of 70%, ‘fraudulent’ education, and high crime rates. Thus far, two things have proven to address crime rates…tough crime enforcement and intact families.
There are Americans and then there are “insert race here” Americans. It’s all a matter of what you feel most defines you as a person. Some choose race to be the most important thing about themselves. Some choose American values to be the most important thing about themselves.
Then of course there are the white, liberal American death cheerleaders that frankly don’t belong anywhere but out of business.
Raymond,
For a moment I was stunned into silence. Quite a feat for which I must commend you. I am happy to hear that you’ve so easily disassociated yourself from your Blackness.
My older brother was Deputy with the Greenville County Sheriff’s Department. During the time he was teaching me to drive, he said something that made me laugh. He said he needed to teach me how to get pulled over. I assumed that you just look for a clear place and …pull over. He said sometimes things won’t be quite that simple. Now we aren’t talking about a trouble-making burden on society. Ex Marine and Navy Seal. One of South Carolina’s top amateur bodybuilders. Husband. Father… Cop. In his ideal world he was BLUE. All law enforcement officer’s were brothers in blue. But he never lost sight of the real world or the “fact”, not opinion, of his Blackness.
But his little brother wasn’t a cop. He wasn’t the muscle-bound hunk with a quick smile and tons of charm and athletic ability. He was a skinny little nerdy kid who “worshipped” his big brother. He was the “smart” one. He wasn’t a trouble-maker, either. Our parents made it so.
But my brother’s love for me made necessary for him to try and protect me from the “REAL” world. He is a Black man in addition to being a cop. When, not if, I got pulled over I was to smile, not in a condescending manner, though. I was to place my open palms on the steering wheel at “10 and 2″. I was to not move from “10 and 2 Open palms” until: (1) The officer asked for documents and then (2) You asked the officer if it is okay for you to remove your hands from the wheel (10 and 2-open palms, still) (3) You “clearly” state where in the vehicle your documents are. (4) “Reach slowly” toward the glovebox or dash to retrieve the documents. (5)Still modestly smiling, slowly hand documents to officer. (6)
With permission from the officer, slowly return hands to 10 and 2 palms open. (7) shut up and wait.
That was my brothers way of teaching me the art of DWB, driving while Black. I’ve never been one to disparage polce officers. My brother told me of the very real stresses that permeate police life. The us versus them mentality and so forth. “Them” was a statistical lie. How could 13% of the population cause so much s–t. Fact is the numbers are the lie. Repeat offenders are responsible for over 70% of property crime in my state. My brother could see this “because he is” a Black man.
Blackness is not a suit of clothes that you can take off when it becomes unfashionable. We are all Americans, by birth or by the grace of God. But we are not all the same or viewed the same, regardless of how much one can close his own eyes.
Interesting. Please point out the line and verse where I laid ALL societal ills at the foot of black people. Your problem is that you are seeing and reading what you want to see. Another point or should a say a fallacy that you and the like minded consistently make is trying to lessen the blow of one’s transgressions by pointing out those of others.
That is so sophomoric. Just because other Presidents MAY have received partial vaccum service on their lower regions in other administrations does not excuse those of Billy Bob. See the parallels Mr.Brown.
Just because I point out the negativity that largely and correctly defines “black” people as opposed to Americans does not give credence to any other group doing likewise.
But let’s keep it real my brother. People classified as “Black” people only make up approx. 11 percent of the population, but that small group is to a super percentage defined by the negative characteristics I cited.
There are two sets of Black people. Those I described and those who have left the plantation.
Jan…Raymond is typically what we call a sambo…if we are stepping out of political correctness….
He is the kid who hides behind internet safety and wouldn’t say the same things to the faces of those whom he is talking about as most people do on this site.
I have coined the phrase internet courage…similar to the phrase liquid courage as applied to people who get really cocky and mouthy when they get drunk…
My motto is this…it is not about politically correct or the converse…it is about being intellectually honest and rational, and if you cant say it to the face of the people you are disrespecting, then you are being hypocritical and soft…
Anyone can type a good game…
#24 Alanscott. Congratulations! You are the first person to fall into that age old trap. Confusing the fact that I claim being an American over my black skin as more important to who I am to me somehow forgetting that I have that black skin.
Hope you didn’t kill any brian cells with that post.
Dell, what’s with the name-calling? I thought you were WAY better than that.
Actually alanscott, your brother’s advice would be good advice for anybody. If your line of work forces you to face the possibility of death everyday, then your nerves might just be a little bit frayed. I would say no sudden moves and being polite would be in any person’s best interest.
#26. LOL!!! Dude if only you could listen when I am on the air locally. I don’t pull punches and what I say hear I say in public. I actually had people wanting to fight me in college (HBCU).
My crowning glory was sending at least two women stomping out of class boo hoo crying all because I debunked and sismantled a stupid left wing presentation of theirs which NO ONE in the class could rebutt. I did it by simply speaking the truth.
As for this only being internet courage. I can only say in the words of hip-hop artist “TI.” Youownknowme!!!! LOL!!
Now THIS is funny!!!
Dell, let me ask you a question. Everytime that your parents, grandparents or loved ones went upside your head for improper behavior, did you accuse them of disrespecting you OR did you correct the offensive behavior, apologize, wipe away your tears and vow to do better?
What, I have to repeat that crap?
when I think of the term “black†I think of…AIDS out of control, violent crime, poverty, anger, hip-hop, poor education, excuses, racism, celebration of mediocrity, BET, The Source Awards, and drugs
Jan…the so-called tough on crime initiative has been proven a failure by any standards you wish to measure it. Like I mentioned before, I wrote a $5 Million grant and in it had to do a detailed analysis of not just the additional cost of so-called tough on crime policies, but also the sociological impact that it had in terms of destabilizing families. When the law of ‘unforseen consequences’ comes barreling down on local economies crushing budgets all of a sudden the politicians are caught in a catch-22 with tax payers crying about both crime and higher taxation…tough on crime policy as defined by so-call neo-cons do not help either.
Secondly, you neo-cons can’t have it both ways. You can’t simultaneously say that welfare is damaging to the family structure AKA illegitimacy etc. because it provice insentives not to stay together and it creates the necessity to rely on the system as opposed to self, and then simultaneously say the way to aid in restoring legitimacy is not the converse of that argument.
IF welfare (government provide capital for poverty) =’s increased illegitimacy and lack of self-determinism…
Then
Economic development and ownership decreases illegitimacy and self-determinism….
Simply if then proposition…
What is a “neo-con?” Seriously.
#33. Let me ask you again:
Please point out the line and verse where I laid ALL societal ills at the foot of black people.
Raymond…I don’t know where you are from…but there is a difference between being straight up and real…which I respect…and being outright disrespectful simply to get a rise out of people…you fall in the latter category 75% of the time.
What is also amazing to me is that if I said:
“White people are all racist” the same people who are applauding you for being “non-PC” would be the same ones attacking me for making generalizations and playing the race card.
The reason I dig LaShawn even though we have demonstrated differences on race, is because she doesn’t make glaring generalizations and disrespectful analogies. She makes her statement on a particular race issue, and provides her rational and argument as to why she believes that way. That is being real. That is worthy of respect in the world of discourse.
Leaders can focus on financial disparity or moral disparity. A poor man living a moral life with strong values will probably improve his own situation through time and determination. A morally bankrupt man living with a shaky value system can be lead to financial “self-determination” but will probably regress in time and the cycle will begin again.
Gonna play semantics, eh, Raymond?
According to you:
Poor education = Black people
AIDS out of control = Black people
violent crime = Black people
poverty = Black people
That may not be all of society’s ills, but gee whiz, can black people cause more damage?
LB…like Raymond says…I am simply calling it like I see it…and based upon his post and and his body of work, I can’t see it any other way. I am more than happy of revising my opinion on him if he demonstrates that it is warranted and if you think I am out of line I don’t have a problem with you editing it. But similar to how people are quick to call folks poverty pimps, or leftist idiots, I stand by my perception of him characterized by his behavior.
I like to think that is “un-pc”
Calling a politician or media hound like Sharpton a poverty pimp is different from saying the same about a commenter. The whole thread becomes a tit-for-tat, testosterone-induced personal attack back and forth. I’m not putting up with that on this blog, and I doubt you’d put up with it on your own.
Raymond, you also bear some of the blame. I certainly hope you’re visiting other blogs to release some of that excess energy you seem to have. Plenty of bloggers will let you say whatever you want. You can’t do it here. If you have a problem with Dell, go to his blog and tell him.
DS just shakes his head.
My father was an NYPD cop. I follow the same traffic stop rules that the previous poster wrote about. Except I raise my hands off of the steering wheel and keep them raised.
In the summer of 1981 or ‘82, I was a summer hire for AT&T. I was a “Dial 0″ operator. One day a co-worker’s daughter came in and got her mother. That night on the news, I saw where a state cop killed a man at a traffic stop. The man in the car leaned over to get his registration, the cop jumped back and fired.
The man he killed was my co-worker’s husband. They had 3 children.
Some Blacks are afraid of gangs like white people are afraid of the Mafia. The biggest prosecutions of the Mafia isn’t because outsiders “snitched”, it’s because Mafia members got caught and then “snitched” when faced with RICO violations.
#37 “A morally bankrupt man living with a shaky value system can be lead to financial “self-determination†but will probably regress in time and the cycle will begin again.”
So true. Just look at the hippity-hoppity culture and its icons. In and out of court, jail, violent encounters and murder yet they are still revered by Blacks. Most of them ending up angry, exploited, broke and right back into the scummy existence that spawned their fleeting fame and mythical fortune.
Alas, ghetto garbage like Jay-Z and P. Diddy will be revered equally as a John Johnson or MLK one day simply because they made some “flow.” I remember a comedian making a joke out of some black people saying “Biggie Smalls” (notice the moniker) was “assasinated” as opposed to just killed. Un-be-liev-able.
In the so-called “black community”, all to often the motto is “If it makes money it makes sense.” Forget who gets hurt. I bet Trina’s mother is so proud.
Sticking with the moral theme, Jada Smith may have said it best when hosting one of those black awards shows (where everyone in the building wins one) she said “Don’t be comin’ up here thankin’ Jesus for yo’ success if you can’t sing yo song in church!”
Brilliant!
Dell writes:
>>>The reason I dig LaShawn even though we have demonstrated differences on race, is because she doesn’t make glaring generalizations and disrespectful analogies. She makes her statement on a particular race issue, and provides her rational and argument as to why she believes that way. That is being real. That is worthy of respect in the world of discourse.”
Amen, Dell. I couldn’t agree more.
I think we’re deviating from the topic, from police brutality to “black stereotypes.” That’s unfortunate, because it’s far two important a thread to be hijacked.
I can’t honestly believe that a RATIONAL person would support “police brutality”, especially when it results in sexual assault (Abner Louima), excessive beatings (Rodney King) or death (Johnny Gammage, Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dourismond, Angel Baez, etc.)
LaShawn makes great points about the community involvement and cooperation with police. How can a community be upset with lack of police protection if many are unwilling to help in investigations? The problem I feel is that the trust level has always been low, as well as mutual expectation levels on BOTH sides of the fence.
I also don’t think this syndrome is unique to the African American community, as nearly every immigrant group to arrive here was blamed by the dominant WASP culture as being “the problem” or “prone to crime.”
I also agree with Dell in the sense that economic opportunity and ownership would do a great deal for lowering the demand for street level crime. Think “Powernomics” in Detroit, for example.
This is a complicated issue, and I think it does nobody a favor when it’s reduced to “children of Ham”-type black bashing.
–Cobra
If I can light it up for a second here. Let’s call a spade a spade. There are Black people and there are Americans who happen to have darker skin. For lack of a better term, we’ll just call the latter Americans.
Black People 101
- Black people are wary and fearful of the police
- Americans respect the police and the difficult and dangerous job they do
- Black people hate the police yet complain when they don’t respond quickly enough
- Americans understand that policemen have families too and understand why police take their time going into ghettos where they will be confronted with cursing, racial slurs, rocks, bottles, gunfire, lawsuits and videocameras
- Black people react to crime with marches, speeches and calling the local buffoon-of-the-cloth
-Americans seek to prevent crime by electing the best candidates as opposed to the blackest and the “realest.
- Black people complain, whine and moan
-Americans define, solve and put in measures to prevent further harmful conditions
- Black people complain about the evil government and its conspiracies.
-Americans respect the government yet apply Constitutional checks and balances and ask appropriate questions and/or speak truth to power when necessary
- Black people beg from the government they so hate
-Americans do everything they can to relay as little on the government as possible
- Black people are eternally offended
- Americans are offended by the eternally offended
- Black people celebrate the crime culture (Rappers calling themselves “Scarfaceâ€, “Noriegaâ€, “Caponeâ€, “Machiavelliâ€, “C-Murderâ€, gangstas, etc.
- Americans see crime for what it is. Harmful to people and to the nation.
“Black†as it is defined now is not something I choose to be a part of of. Call me crazy, but when I think of the term “black†I think of Affirmative Action, Congressional Black Caucus, Louis Farrascam, Jesse Jackson, TD Fakes, Creflo Getyour Dollarz, 70% out of wedlock birth rate, AIDS out of control, violent crime, poverty, anger, hip-hop, poor education, excuses, racism, celebration of mediocrity, BET, The Source Awards, and drugs.
When I think American, I think outstanding sports, political, economic, business and humanitarian achievement, Raymond, LaShawn Barber, Sarah Vaughn, Aretha Franklin, JCWatts, Condoleeza Rice, Clarence Thomas, Mae Jemison, Guion Bluford, Johnny Cochran, Reginald Lewis, Gen, “Chappy†James, The Tuskegee Airmen, etc.
I didn’t fall into a trap, Raymond These are your words. I didn’t make them up. I didn’t make you use them. You chose to use them. You are free to feel anyway you want to about me or Black people, in general.
I’m surely not going to get involved in any inane wordplay exercises with you. I simply wanted to convey to you that you accomplished the one thing I never expected when I decided to peruse this site. I “came” here to exchange and share ideas, thoughts, and philosophies with other thinking individuals. The fact that I was shocked into silence by your introductory comment only speaks to it’s outrageousness, not to it’s thought provocation for which there was obviously…little.
To the cadre of supporters, I can only sumise that your only purpose in interaction with people who are not like you, is to make them like you. You showed a disturbing “affection” for a person for someone who had just insulted doctors, teachers, pilots, soldiers, policemen, and yes even criminals with an assinine and elementary “American versus Black” commentary. He wrote it. I didn’t.
And finally, Raymond, I’m truly touch by your concern for my brain cells. I assure you that they are sharp and in a finely tuned working order. But I thank you, none the less.
When I became a police officer, I was amazed at the number of people who actually called the police to “do something” with their 8, 9, 10 year old children because they couldn’t “handle” them anymore. Out of app. 80-100 juveniles I’ve arrested for car theft or possession of guns or drugs, maybe 5 (and I’m being generous) mothers/parents actually displayed any anger with their child. The vast majority of the time they jumped all over my partner and me, accusing us of planting whatever was involved, on their child. Their baby couldn’t possibly be involved with drugs or gangs. So many parents are afraid of their children and/or unwilling to take the time needed to actually raise their children instead of letting them be raised by the streets. It’s much easier to just file a complaint on the arresting officer and possibly end up getting “paid” by the city. In the same way, it’s much easier for so called leaders to march and picket police headquarters because they know as “brutal” as we’re made out to be, chances of us hurting them are infinitesimally smaller than their chances are with the local gang bangers. And they are seen to really be doing something for the community, so that’s really a low/no risk endeavor.
Zorro: Funny you mentioned that. My son and I have a running joke. Whenever he’s about to go outside, he’ll say “Mom, I’m going outside with my jeans and white T,” and we laugh because he knows not to ever go out dressed like that.
Independent said:
“Actually alanscott, your brother’s advice would be good advice for anybody. If your line of work forces you to face the possibility of death everyday, then your nerves might just be a little bit frayed. I would say no sudden moves and being polite would be in any person’s best interest.”
Absolutely right Independent.
You bet I want to see your hands and everything going on in that car clearly, regardless of your color. Traffic stops and domestics are some of the most dangerous situations for police officers. People have a tendency to think because they know they’re not criminals, that knowledge is somehow magically transmitted to us and we should just trust them. Not to say it’s ok to automatically treat people like criminals, but there are certain things you must do, because that officer does not know you from adam, and he/she wants to go home to their family intact the same way you do.
#10 Thank You Raymond
Seal Lover;
What is your feeling on police brutality in the black community? Does it exist? Is it justified? Is it a media reinforced stereotype? Your perceptions would be fascinating.
#45
And I’ve found that saying Sir, Yes Sir, No Sir (or officer) and just coming clean that I was speeding (or that I noticed I was speeding when I saw your cherry top spin up behind me) goes a long way towards not getting in extra trouble, or even getting a smaller ticket.
Showing respect and no sudden or odd moves, has gotten me out of plenty of tickets (even when I worked in a biker bar and looked the part).
Cops, IMO, are like dogs: If you act suspiciously, they take alot of interest in you. If you run, they will chase you, just because you ran. If you hide your hands, there must be something fun or dangerous in them. If you won’t look them in the eye, you admit they are alpha.
It’s a simplistic view, but it works more often than not with both breeds.
Alan;
I reread Raymond’s post, and it truly looks to me like he is saying that blacks are so much more, so superior to the Louis Farrakhans, the Congressional Black Caucas, the rampaging crime and illigitemacy rates, and all those things that drag them down. He names outstanding blacks that he wants to be associated with: The Tuskeegee Airmen, Condoleeza Rice, J.C Watts (I wish he’s run for president), and others. To me, after reading it and rereading it, Raymond is saying that blacks ARE doctors, teachers, pilots, soldiers, and such, and until everyone wakes up and quits defining the black world the way that they are defined now, he doesn’t want any part of that definition.And, I also think he wants to be defined as an individual, not always lumped as a group member. Could you possibly acknowledge that there might be a kernel of truth to this? Lastly, surmising about the intentions of others is usually a flawed process. I never find that people surmise correctly about me, and I often wonder why people think they are so good at mind reading. That’s why I ask so many questions.
#47, May I? Police brutality is NEVER justified, but a policeman knocking the crap out of a non-compliant perp is. Once the police officer tells you to do something, it is your job to comply. If you disagree with his actions then fight it out in court, but if you decide to become combative, whether “blue” is behaving properly or not, you will most assuredly lose. Maybe even your life.
Policemen and soldiers are human before they are policemen are soldiers. You are making a major mistake by thinking their training alone allows them to turn their anger on and off like a light switch. The next time you decide to get flip with a cop or a soldier just remember the following:
- You have an attitude
- The cop has a gun
- You have your rights
- The cop has the badge
- You have a gun
- The cop has guns AND back up and even more guns
- You cry racism when the cop whups your butt
- You still end up in the hospital or “dead” right in the morgue
- You are the alleged perp
- He is the oath sworn protector of the citizenry
- You have a vague idea of the law
- The cop speaks to, lives next to, works with, has lunch with and sends his children to the same schools as the judge.
Now, I have made some generalizations here, but if I were you, I would not try to pick and choose which ones are truth and which are the generalizations because one day, your health and/or life may depend on whether or not you belive me or just want to be contrary.
#49. And Jan gets it as she usually does. It really is that simple.
Raymond;
Just when I feel like giving up, I see a smile, and I think…it’s worth it.
About cops..This is bizarre because I have a positive attitude about police,and send them money every month cuz I think their job is so so hard. Yet, my family has had some experiences worth noting, for all of those who think that stuff only happens in the black community.
1. 17 yr. old, shy daughter caught speeding 7mph over the speed limit, found to have an unpaid ticket( which I though I’d paid)…get’s manacled and arrested, and spends night in jail in Tennessee with 14 yr old daughter while on a road trip. (we were traveling and couldn’t be reached) Probation officer said she was very quiet and cried all night and was very very polite, and that judge was abusive…probation officer was horrified by judge’s behavior Cost: thousands of dollars
son: 19; recently asked him to walk our dog behind our house where there is a school. Police stopped him…he has allergies and eyes are red rimmed…they thought he was doing drugs…questioned him harshly…let him go…he’s very shy…phi-theta scholar…report said he was extremely polite..when I called to find out what the problem was, the woman, whose husband it turned out was the policeman, cursed at me, though I was merely trying to find out if the school was off limits, even though it was right behind my old house
friend’s daughter;outside of night club at college with my daughter; policeman said to move on..she said she was waiting for friends (who drove)..he said to move on…she said she couldn’t because her friends had the car…he hand-cuffed her (she weighed 90 lbs)…she peed in her pants…they hauled her in…when the printed her they made fun of her as she has deformed fingers from a birth defect…later, the college filed suit as this policeman had been abusive to a number of their students
my brother Donald; murdered his wife..got the death penalty which was changed to life without parole. Black friend’s brother-in-law murdered her sister…got four years with black jury…. they said that there were too many black men behind bars
brother…had unpaid ticket…police came to parent’s house…friendly, but they arrested him…handcuffed him…drove him to county where ticket was owed…Dad posted bail and paid ticket and Paul was released
Lessons? Pay tickets. Don’t murder your wives. Move on when policemen tell you to move on. And, sometimes police have bad days, and every once in awhile, there’s bad apples.
“I dunno Raymond, by your definitions, I know alot of white people that really must be black.
Sadly, there are plenty of non-black American’s that don’t live up to the definition you posted.”
Good point. What you are dealing with are very uncommon semantical attempts by some to distance themselves as far as possible from what they are in order to get as close as possible to something that they desire to be but can never be.
Most black conservatives, such as Sowell, Thomas, etc. have no problem with being black despite it being secondary to being American. Likewise, these individuals don’t seem to define “black” by negatives associated with today’s black community. In other words, they want to be Americans and they want to prosper. They don’t want to be white.
But Jan, those outstanding blacks are “black”. I don’t agree with anyone defining “black” by those negative things. That is backwards and similar to what liberals do. Liberals define being black as being poor, having children out of wedlock, etc. and Raymond seems to do the same thing. If you post is what Raymond means, why can’t he post it as clearly as you do?
#s 53 and 54.
Having black skin is not the same as being “Black.” and rejecting the negative label of being “Black” does not equal wanting to be or being somehow in any form “White.”
You are correct, my being of black skin is seondary to my being an American and yes, most of what describes being a member of the “Black” club is negative and I reject it.
Does not mean I an not well aware of the treatment I may be subject to based on the amount of malanin present in my skin.
Jan:
See # 50 by Raymond. Pretty accurate.
Does it exist?
Of course there is police brutality in the black community. As Raymond wrote, police officers are
human beings first and as such, are far from perfect. There are officers who are strictly on power trips and do things to people just because they have the badge and they can. That includes black and white officers. I have had white officers tell me they know of other white officers who asked to work in high crime areas just so they could have a chance to kick some “black you know what.” Fortunately though, those kinds are few and far between. In the past, I have refused to work with officers who had a reputation for being brutal. I preferred to take my chances working alone if my partner was off. There have been times when I questioned how in the world a certain officer passed the psych. test to even become a police officer.
Is it justified?
Unprovoked attacks are never justified. A uniform is no excuse for that. The vast majority of the time when we get physical, it’s to get someone under control after they’ve tried to resist arrest, or refuse to cease fighting when we arrive on the scene. Some officers do go beyond what’s needed to affect the arrest. Most only do what is necessary. Some people think we use more force than necessary, but that is awfully hard to judge from the outside looking in. When you are fighting someone, you do what you think you need to do to get the situation under control.
Is it a media reinforced stereotype?
Most stereotypes have some basis in truth and this is no different. Yes there is brutality, and that does need to be addressed. It’s also true that some so called leaders and the media jump on those cases and exaggerate and emphasize them to the point where the black community thinks it’s always under assault by the police.
People do have a tendency not to see us as human, as Raymond alluded to earlier. One of my favorite examples happened when my son (now 16) was a baby. I was at work and on my lunch break buying diapers. A man in line behind me looked at me, looked at the diapers, looked back at me wide eyed and said “You have a baby?” I answered yes. He said, “I didn’t know you could do that.” He was truly shocked. Some people see us as Robocops, when the truth is we are just as imperfect as anyone else. Yes, we should be held to a higher standard because our job involves life and death, but we are not Robocops, we are human. Most of us are not out to get you. We just want to do our job and get home safely to our families like everyone else.
Shade;
I’m a little confused about your question. But, I think his comments are more than just a mere rejection of ‘negative’ behaviors like crime and illegitimacy. They are also a rejection of attitudes that are embraced by so many leaders in the community and so many in the culture. And, it is a rejection of the white liberal ‘compassionate’ (yuck) definition of ‘blackness’. Lastly,to me they were an embracing of ‘being American’ and being a unique human being’and being a high achieving black person. Also, Thomas Sowell, Steven L Carter, J.C. Watts, and others have spoken quite eloquently of being rejected by many in the black community as not being ‘authentically’ black, so their intellectual diversity has posed a problem for them. I don’t know if any of this answers your questions.
Thank you for your service to the community “seal-lover!” It IS much appreciated.
Raymond you are very welcome, and thanks for your “thanks”. As you can imagine, that’s something we rarely hear.
#48
LOL! Funny, but for the most part accurate.
Jan
Raymond has embraced the “white liberal ‘compassionate’ (yuck) definition of ‘blackness’”. The difference between him and liberal blacks is that he embraces it for the sake of put-down while the others embrace it positively. Both are sellouts in my book. My work with other black conservatives often involves teaching people what TRUE black culture (subculture actually) is and show how that culture has been infected by liberalism. The infection has grown since the 60s and we show how things were before the infection and discuss ways to rid of the infection. The main group of folks that I observe trying to define the culture by the infection are neo-nazis, klansmen and their ilk. I would never dare say that I don’t want to be associated with “blackness”. That is a part of what I am. Roughly half of the white people in the U.S. are liberals. Would that justify a white person not wanting to be associated with America or “whiteness”?
10 and 24 both make some very good points.
Seal;
Thank you for a very thoughtful reply. Your job must make extraordinary demands on you in many ways. I am in awe of what you do.
Shade;
Thank you also for your thoughtful response.I interpret Raymond to have said that he didn’t want to be associated with ‘blackness as it was currently being defined’, which is different to me than just disassociating oneself from one’s color entirely. And, trust me, white liberals have really low expectations for black people very often. They just know how to couch it in more acceptable terms, such as appealing to victimology rhetoric. Also, as far as dialogue goes, I’d be a lot more comfortable with dissecting the substance of what someone says than dissecting my interpretation of their psychology. You know, sometimes, when I read the responses on these blogs, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of room for really diverse opinions, especially among black people. As I said, Sowell, Watts, Carter, and other conservatives have spoken about this. It seems like if someone says something that really diverges, they get slammed really hard. Is this my imagination?
And, if I thought whites were being caricatured, or represented by leaders and cultural phenomenon that I rejected, I would disassociate myself from the culture AS IT WAS BEING DEFINED. For example, in Saudi Arabia, because of the media representation, most Saudis who had not been to the US, thought all white American women were a bunch of decadent sluts. I absolutely rejected their impression of white women in America. If that was the widely accepted notion of ‘whiteness’, I would reject that definition. So, I’m drawing a distinction here, and I just don’t find it necessary to analyze motives quite so much as I see it done.
“Thank you for a very thoughtful reply. Your job must make extraordinary demands on you in many ways.”
You’re welcome Jan. I think your posts here and at Dell Gines have been very well thought out and expressed also.
It’s not so bad now. My squad car was hit by a car thief and I ended up with chronic back problems, so I can’t work the streets anymore, which is good and bad. Good because I am a divorced mother with a dependent child, so I really didn’t need to have a job risking my life on a daily basis. Bad because of the pain and the fact that I do miss doing real police work.
Seal-lover;
You made my day..and, you made me laugh, cuz I wasn’t expecting a woman…See what preconceived notions do to people????
Shade asked Jan, “If you post is what Raymond means, why can’t he post it as clearly as you do?”
Jan made an excellent reply but I would also like to answer as I was also one of Raymond’s cheerleaders. If that was the only comment I had ever read from Raymond, I probably would have been a bit taken aback. It would have been out of context for me. However, as I have been reading his body of work for a while, I knew instinctivly what he was talking about. He wasn’t saying every person with an African/caribbian heritage fit his “black” definition. He was saying that a particular negative culture has been adopted by a portion of people of his heritage. I interpreted his use of the word black as an adjective rather than a noun. For some people (of all races – think Eminem) the word “black” is a discriptive for a particular lifestyle. I think Raymond just chooses to reject the negative connotations of “black” when it is used as an adjective. He chooses to be a noun and the only adjective I’ve ever heard him really care about when describing himself is “American.”
To everyone who has been putting up with me,
Aprapo of nothing, I started my first contract day teaching in a Christian, private school. After nine years I have finally left the government indoctorination, babysitting, tax dollar wasting system that is public education. I took an $8,000 pay cut and have to drive 45 minutes to work, but man don’t I feel liberated!
Indy,
Kudos and good luck. I never made past student teaching, when I realized I was selling my future to Sally Mae to work in an environment that would suck the soul out of me. And that was when I was still a card carrying democrat!
I appreciate it SCSIwuzzy. I love teaching, but it would seem that public schools are not all that interested in children learning. I’m praying that I will now finally get a chance to answer my calling in earnest.
Indy;
You go, girl!…
And;
SCSIwuzzy;
Glad you didn’t get your soul sucked out and sell your future to Fannie Mae. That would have been a loss.
I hear an awful lot of commentators praise Thomas Sowell (albeit on a thread concentrating on police brutality.)
I’m not a big fan of Sowell’s. I didn’t particularly care for his take on the Amadou Diallo slaying by 4 white officers on the NYPD street crimes unit.
From the Jewish World Review–
>>>”In the Diallo case, it is hard to think of a single thing that the cops should have done differently — or that I would have done differently in their shoes. There are some things that Amadou Diallo should have done differently, such as not run away from the police and then turn around and pull something out of his jacket to point toward them in a dimly lit hallway. What he held out toward them was his wallet. But they discovered that only after the shooting was over and he was dead.”
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell022500.asp
As we know from case, after case, including the innocent Brazillian slaughtered by plain clothes British police a few weeks ago, the official police report first given, is not always the TRUTH, yet Mr. Sowell never so much as questions police activities on that night. Everything was PERFECT. The onus of behavior is placed upon the innocent, unarmed victim, and not those who were responsible for shooting at him 41 times.
I see the responsibility shift in many threads here. I feel it’s important to be respectful of police, and to follow their LAWFUL instructions when given, but a badge is not a halo, nor does it wield the power of a judge’s gavel. A badge does not grant the wearer powers above Constitutional rights. A badge is not an innoculation against abusive or criminal behavior.
It’s important to understand the tough job that many police officers face, but to echo the anti-Casey Sheehan crowd, “they volunteered for the job,” and there is no “cop draft” that I know of.
It’s a complex situation, and not one easily dismissed by cliches and black-bashing.
http://www.thecobraslair.com/National%20Issues9.html
–Cobra
Cobra, while it was sad that the man from Brazil died, he was innocent of being a bomber. He was guilty of being in the UK illegally, which is the likely reason he ran from the police.
Even in London, cops are cops. Like I’ve said here before (and just today), like dogs, if you run from a cop, he will chase you. Woe to he that gets bitten.
Jan, I have been following the thread over at Dell’s site. I’m so impressed at the way you are handling yourself that I decided not to jump in, lest I be eaten alive. Thanks for the congrats. I’m very excited about trying to fly without clipped wings.
Cobra, you are correct that cases of true police brutality need to be brought to the light and prosecuted so that our defenders do not get a bad name and civil rights are upheld. However, there are those that seek to make criminal rights paramount to innocent citizen’s rights. They use isolated cases to further their cause. These individuals are a security risk and can not be indulged or tolerated. When the costs of frivolous lawsuits are put back on the money grubbing, attention seeking plaintiffs, then I will know we are moving in the right direction. Then, we will all be a lot more safe and the wheat can be separated from the chafe.
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