Do the people who said they’d ride out the storm — defying a mandatory evacuation — bear some responsibility for what happened to them?
Does the government there bear some responsibility for not having adequate means to evacuate those who could not get out on their own, on buses, trains, or any means possible?
Yes. — Jeff Jarvis
I agree. Those who had the means to leave but defied warnings bear a lot of responsibility, and if the government starts ordering people to evacuate an area en masse, they’d better provide the means for people who can’t do so on their own.
Someone is bound to disagree, I’m sure. Such is the blogosphere. 
Update: Give to the Salvation Army.
Check out the blogger leaderboard. If you contributed to the blogger hurricane fund, please log your contribution here. My goodness, we’re a competitive lot. Bloggers have raised $76,684 so far.
At one time or another, we’ve all depended on the kindness of strangers.
Here’s help for homeschoolers who lost items in the disaster: Ambleside Online and Project Noah.
8:42 p.m.: COMMENTING IS CLOSED FOR THE NIGHT. Will re-open in the morning.
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YES and YES…
Our greed played a big role in this. The storm predictions were there, the evacuation was ordered but the city wasn’t closed til the last minute…
the city and state and federal government play a role in not providing adequate means for getting out for those who could not on their own. I was pretty perplexed when the Mayor (the night before) exempted hospitals. This was the first indicator that the local government was not going to provide assitance to those in need, to get out.
It’s all a lesson learned though. We have all watched as FL was repeatedly hit, missed and everything in between and people stayed. We watched as people complained when the storm did not come and they had evactuated. That mentality to stay is prevalent for us all, however, just perhaps, this event will make us all look at how little our possessions and money really mean and to value human life a whole lot more. Possesions and money can be replaced…human life can not.
There’s another angle to this question. I’m sure some defy the evacuation order because they fear the government, drunk on power, will forbid them from returning to their home long after the danger has passed. Then, when they finally get to their home, they get there just in time to see the looters running down the road with the last of their stuff that was still in reasonable condition.
I suppose it’s a high-risk/high-reward choice.
You need a credit card to book a hotel.
You need a credit card to book a flight. You can’t walk up with cash, assuming you had cash, when thousands of others are scrambling to reserve.
It’s the end of the month, and nobody gets their paychecks yet.
I’d say that the local government bears a great deal of responsibility.
Local government officials knew that there was a risk of a catastrophic hurricane–and were more aware of the risks than the average resident.
Local government officials permitted, even encouraged, home-building and economic development in flood-prone areas.
Local government officials knew what would be required for a full-scale evacuation.
And those same local government officials chose to take the risk and not prepare. Now they expect someone else to bail them out and expect the rest of us to pay the bills.
I can sympathize with the victims, but I don’t see why I should bear the costs of this disaster when someone else reaped the earlier economic benefits–benefits that were artificially increased by the avoidance of disaster preparation and mitigation expenditures.
In the same vein, I am disgusted by the critics who attack Bush for not throwing money at levees. Why should he? Why shouldn’t the people who choose to build where levees are necessary pay for those levees?
In my opinion, it would be stupid to either rebuild any of the city near, at, or below sea level, and even more stupid to leave the same irresponsible local officials in charge.
Diane,
I’d say that apethetic voters, and people livin’ for today, allowing 5 years of dismanteling of environmental protection bear a lot of the responsibility. Millions of acres of wetlands protected years ago from development, lost that protection under the BushII administration. These wetlands were the natural buffer between a storm surge and NOLA.
We will be hearing a lot in coming months about the “dead zone” in the Caribbean. To put it succinctly, chemical fertilizer runoff from the Missouri and Mississippi rivers accumulate in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico every summer, causing a massive phytoplankton bloom. This bloom absorbs all oxygen and causes the surface temps to get up to and past 90. This is what caused Katrina to go from a CAT2 and weakening to a CAT5 literally overnight.
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/dead_zone.html
That and Bush chopping 44% out of New Orleans Corps of Engineers budget (bad timing, that…), well, kina hamstrings local goverment. The Bush administration has also been dismanteling FEMA, putting the responsibilities on Homeland Security, which is proving almost completely unprepared.
http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2004-09-22/cover.html
It’s been 4 years since 9/11 and supposedly Homeland Security is in place to handle the aftermath of a large-scale terrorist attack. Such an attack would leave a refugee situation similar to what we see in NOLA…why is HS so unprepared?
After the shock of the event, the American people need to scrutinize what this government under George Bush has done to the programs and systems that were supposed to take care of us in the event of disaster, as well as the laws that were put in place to try to avert it in the first place.
This is no time for “theological science”.
Then where should we build cities? Maybe San Francisco should have never been rebuilt after the 1906 earthquake since it’s sitting on a fault zone?
We can’t build cities in the Mountains because of forest fires. We can’t build in the deserts because of drought.
—All the cities that are built on flight paths are in direct danger.
Where is the perfect place to build a city?
Tax payers do have some responsibility to the Gulf region, since we utilize the gasoline that comes out of there. We all are going to pay, one way or another, be it through the pump, or through redevelopment.
The poor have always lived in substandard, ramshackle housing located in the worst of ecosystems.
It’s just that many of us moved up and out of there, into bigger and better. Safer.
Today’s poor aren’t being encouraged to move up and out. Education, strong morality and faith, discipline—-all those things that lift poor people out of the substandard, below sea-level, ramshackle housing—-we don’t see that today.
From the bits and pieces I read before the hurricane hit, the evacuation wasn’t going well. It wasn’t announced early enough, and then the evac routes didn’t seem coordinated. They had the contraflow (all lanes outbound only) going north and northeast but not west. Everyone who’s paid any attention to any hurricane knows that the northeast quadrant is the worst and most destructive so I think people wanted to go the opposite direction, but the main roads west weren’t made into “exit only” like the others so they were quickly clogged.
And yes, if a city is going to pour tax dollars into a bus system, they better darn well use those buses for emergencies like this!
We stayed home through 3 hurricanes last season, but we weren’t worried about flooding. If we lived on beachfront or in a city on the coast that lies well below sea level, we would’ve high-tailed it outta there.
Do you realize that no large american city is prepared to move all of it’s citizens to a different location. Public transportation is meant to transport only a small fraction of the population at any given time, and people are meant to be housed where they live, not some warehouse location set aside for such emergencies. Food is distributed through a network of supermarkets, and stored where the people sleep. All of that is disrupted now on the Gulf Shore regions hit by the hurricane.
Everything we expect in our society is built on the premise that it all works–water flows, lights are on, telecommunications work. No city can expect to lose all infrastructure and still be able to maintain the orderly flow of life.
Ease up off the gas.
Agreed. Although I was disapointed to hear that more nursing homes didn’t do more to help their residents evacuate. Although- I’m sure at the time they thought it was best to leave that up to the residents and their families- in the end it was the wrong decision to make.
But yes, I whole heartedly agree with you regarding the above.
“Responsibility” – such a big word.
Should the Federal Government take “Responsibility” for all of the costs of maintaining a city that is (and will continue to be) at risk in any major flooding event?
Should local government take “Responsibility” for forcing people to evacuate from that same city when danger threatens?
Should local authority take “Responsibility” for ensuring civil order in the aftermath of a catastrophic event?
At some point, the PEOPLE in that city need to take “responsibility” for themselves – in a collective sense, if not an individual one.
I live in a city in the desert – should I expect the Federal government to spend Billions to ensure my water supply (and property values)? Should I expect the government to spend millions to protect my cabin in the high country from fire risk? Or should I think about assuming some of that risk myself?
Blaming Bush, “the Feds”, Republicans, Democrats, the Governor, the Mayor, or anyone else for this disaster is a waste of everyone’s time – we need to work on helping those who can’t help themselves (no matter how they got there), restoring civil order and PRIVATELY helping everyone in the affected area get back on their feet. Expecting government (at all levels) to take a leadership role in managing and remediating in disasters is proper – expecting government be able to immediately “bail us out” every time things go badly (or even “just in case”) is just plain wrong.
“At some point, the PEOPLE in that city need to take “responsibility” for themselves – in a collective sense, if not an individual one.”—-Hartley
In a city that is consumed with “Le Bon Temps”, amidst a Federal Government that persists in removing the Ten Commandments from the side of buildings………..
not easy to do.
Watching the aftermath, it occurred to me that a lot of people without the means to evacuate could have been evacuated if some churches had had a plan in place. (I only thought of it after-the-fact, so I’m not pointing any fingers.)
Most middle-class families have more than one car. Each driver in a household could have filled up her or his car with people wanting to leave and headed for an agreed-upon location. A lot of cars are underwater in New Orleans that could have been driven out if the owners had thought about it.
Again, I’m not pointing any fingers since I didn’t think of it either. The resources were there but apparently no one thought of it. But I’ve thought of it now and should something like this happen here in Texas, my four cars will be full of people and heading out of town.
Some people remained there because they knew the looting would follow.
A born again had a flood come upon his community. The water was ankle deep and he was standing out by the road. A man in an SUV came along and volunteered to take him to high ground. The born again declined the offer.
“I’ll just trust God to see me through it.”
Later the water got to be waist deep. Another man came by in a boat and offered to rescuer him. Again the born again declined for the same reason.
The water got up to his rooftop and a helicopter came by offering assistance. Again the man declined, saying he would trust in God to preserve him.
Eventually the floods rose above everything and the man drowned. When he got to heaven, he sought out God and challenged Him, saying, “You let me drown! You didn’t preserve me!”
God looked at him and said, “I sent you an SUV, a boat and a helicopter. What more did you want?”
Many had no means to leave. And few people other than those of us who have made a point of noting Bush’s sheer incompetence at everything he touches would believe that FEMA, et al, would mess the recovery up so badly.
But they did. I’m horrified at what is going on. But I am not shocked. This is a typical Bush foul-up, just like Iraq, just like Afghanistan.
Of course, the storm was an act of God, but the sheer stupidity and incompetence shown by federal agencies that is directly leading to needless death, that’s Bush’s negligence and inability to lead.
Zorro,
So, NOLA spends less than one percent of its annual budget on the levies they new were in need, and that doesn’t make as angry as Bush and Congress pulling funding from the ACoE? From a project widely regarded and reported (back in 02) as a boondoggle?
Your bias, and your bigotry, is showing today.
tristero
yeah it’s Bush’s fault people are raping and killing also ….
GEESH
SCSI
NOLA being more worried about their tourist industry means nothing (not to mention the corruptionin the local government there)… I digress
it’s all Bush’s fault didn’t you read??
Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen? ‘Times-Picayune’ Had Repeatedly Raised Federal Spending Issues
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313
hmmmm – I thought the invisible hand of the Free Market took care of all these things…
I never thought a natural disaster can be turned into a political debate, but guess what? I agree with brotherbrown there is no way an entire city can be ready for an evacuation.
I’m not sure this is even a topic worthy of discussion at this point. There are still people dying in the street, in the superdome, people looting and carjacking, people shooting at rescuers and others, people needing help.
Did I just heard Jack Cafferty at CNN say that racism is playing no small part in the lack of response? Now that’s helpful, that’ll restore order, that’ll nourish and nurse people. Thanks Jack.
Let’s save the recriminations and finger pointing for a later time.
tristero . . .
What should the government be doing differently?
How has FEMA fouled up the recovery?
What should Bush have done, or what shouldn’t he have done that has you screaming “incompetence” and “stupidity” from the rafters?
What has anyone done at a government level that has directly led to “needless death?”
Back away from the politics you fantasize are at work and look at what’s going on. People were told to leave. Beyond that, those without transportation and those needing assistance had offers to take public transportation to the Superdome (from which they would now be being orderly evacuated). They just had to get out of their house and/or call for assistance. They didn’t. How loudly the liberals would have howled if the city, particularly the “projects,” had been cleared by force prior to the storm!
The plight of New Orleans (and the rest of the coast through Mississippi and Alabama) is truly horrible. Politicizing the tragedy exposes people like you as fools of the most vile order.
I’ll leave you with one more question: In the midst of all of your ranting about stupidity, incompetence, and how horrible a leader we have, what specifically have you done to help the people of New Orleans?
Hey Tristero:
Why is this a federal problem? George Bush did not tell people to build in an area that would be flooded; so what makes him responsible for the result?
Why aren’t you blaming the decades of local Democratic politicians who allowed development in an area known for hundreds of years to be a flood zone?
Why are you ignoring the sheer stupidity and absolute incompetence of the local Democratic politicians who bear primary responsibility for refusing to plan for problems they created?
If you really believe this is Bush’s responsibility, I hope he takes all necessary actions to make sure it does not happen again, even if that means prohibiting rebuilding.
Fascinating National Geographic article from October, 2004:
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/
Bush being interviewed today on Good Morning America: “No one could have predicted the levees would break.”
(which is NOT to say the hurricane was Bush’s fault – but I’ll leave it to everyone else to draw their own opinions about what this *does* say about the President…)
Diane -
Your point is well taken. However, many of the wetlands surrounding New Orleans were under *federal* management, and the Bush admin gave much of them over to development (see series of stories in the NO Times-Picayune).
Now, many would ridicule wetland preservation as being championed solely by groups of hard-core “tree huggers” to save some stupid salamander from extinction. In reality, however, it is estimated that a storm surge is reduced by 2 feet for each mile of wetlands it traverses. So the wetlands to the south and east of New Orleans are as essential to the protection of the Big Easy as those levee systems. Paving some of those federal lands over for development was tragically unwise.
thank you aaron
For Zorro:
The Core of Engineers has been offering specific plans to improve New Orleans’s levies for over 40 years. For several reasons, the people of New Orleans ans South LA have refused to do this:
1 People were simply too cheap to put up the 20% matching funds.
2 New leview would take up land people wanted for other uses – like a yacht club on the lake, etc.
3 Environmentalists have complained about almost every proposal.
Sorr, Zorro, you lose on this one – Bush is no where near the first to “do nothing” about New Orleans’s levies.
Frank -
It is not true that it was locals who spurned plans by the Army Corps of engineers. There are lots of articles out today and yesterday that point to the severe curtailing of funds in the Bush budget for shoring up Lousiana’s coastal protections.
For example this article in the Houston Chronicle says:
“The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana’s coast, only to be opposed by the White House…. In its budget, the Bush administration had also proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana’s chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need.” ( http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/3333822 ) There are lots of other corroboration I can post if you like.
That “chief hurricane protection project” mantioned in the article was the very plan proposed by the Corps of Engineers.
Now look – I would certainly not put the entire blame for what is happening in New Orleans on the policies or lack of planning of this administration. Nor is this the time for assigning blame. However, it seems this administration and its apologists are totally unwilling to accept any blame at all for even a tiny part of the aftermath of this disaster, or for anything else.
I find it interesting that the title of this discussion is “On Responsibility”, when no one in the administration is ever willing to accept responsibility for anything, ever. It’s *never* their fault. The aftermath of the Iraq war, for example, was so clearly and grossly mismanaged, and yet not a *single* admin official has been fired over it. On the contrary, they all get promoted! When is W going to admit to making any mistakes about anything?
No, everything that is happening in New Orleans is not the fault of the President. But it would sure be refreshing for him or someone in his cabinet to own up to any sort of mishandling, short-sightedness, or misplanning on their parts. Don’t bet on it though.
Why is this a federal problem?
The Corp of Engineers is resposible for the levees. The federal government, rightly or wrongly, manages all jurisdictional waters.
On a human level, can’t we do better? I live in Texas, why aren’t all of the local buses driving to Lousiana right now. The response has been disgusting. Do we live in the 3rd world? I can’t believe the images that I am seeing.
What has Homeland Security been up to? Would things be different if it was a terrorist attack? Who knows, but clearly we are seeing some major problems with all of the money that we have thrown into Homeland Security.
This is shamefull.
Zoro, what spin. First what was being cut was the planning. Second, the building of the levees for a Cat3 storm were still intact but the completion date was well into ‘08. So even if the $$ had not been cut the levees would never have withstood the storm at all or been completed in time for the storm (’08 was the planned date from the git go.) Third, having only been designed for 15′ MSL, the levees as completed would have been 10′ short of any use against Katrina.
Being a former Florida resident, I have lived through 3 hurricanes. One thing I was always taught. If the storm is Cat2 or better and has a chance to land to provide a storm surge push then GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY! No matter of human construction is going to stand the wave battering. The first responsibility that a person has to himself is to utilize some common sense to protect oneself. No matter of planning at any level will overcome the lack of application of that rule.
For example, I saw one photon on CNN earlier today. 7 people on the 2nd floor porch of their 2 story home. SOS written on their roof. Waiting to be rescued. All were hearty and hale by the grace of God and I applaud that. Great photo. But oddly in the bottom of the photo clipped but visible the bow and stainless handrail of a boat! You need to get out? Take the boat and if necessary paddle. Given 3-4 hours you will certainly reach some point where rescue teams can assist you.
Just my take.
The No Responsibility Administration and its eternal supporters will preach responsibility to everyone but themselves.
Teachers are responsible for the sorry state of education. Poor residents are responsible for not getting out. Lousianans are responsible for living in Lousiana. Those who lack health care are responsible for not working for a employer who buys insurance. Iraqis are responsible for not making democracy work.
But nothing, no matter what, is ever the responsibility of the No Responsiblity Administration. The Buck stops over there. The Dear Leader is only responsible for all that is good and great, but not for anything bad. Ever.
Yes, exactly what IS the Homeland Security department doing? Anyone know?
Here’s their National Response Plan, which I’ve just downloaded:
Maybe there’s an answer in there somewhere.
Oops, apparently I didn’t dig deep enough on the Homeland Security website.
United States Government Response to the Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/press_release/press_release_0727.xml
Oh aaron
You do not seem to understand how America is structured. See, if the President is allowed to just ramrod his power over state and city jurisdiction whenever anything happens that would be considered despotism. Presidents do not have ultimate power to decide how each individaul state operates under a crisis. Both the blubbering LA governor and the NO mayor obviously had no plans for dealing with an event which was over the past several decades was predicted to happen.
No back-up plans for the already overwhelmed levees, draining pumps old and overused, no evacuation plan for those unable to leave on their own, no offical law enforment plan. Nothing but blubbering city and state idiocy merely saying get out or make your way to the dome. What were the city and state officals doing all the while Katrina was moving towards their area?
Now because the state and city leadership have proven themselves unable to deal with this due their vacant planning, the federal government must now step in and take over the helm.
If anything this hurricane has exposed decades of corrupt and useless state and city leadership.
My favorite “personal responsibility” advice from President Bush today:
“Americans should be prudent in their use of energy during the course of the next few weeks. Don’t buy gas if you don’t need it!”
Good Lord. Does anybody buy gas when they *don’t* need it?? Could the No Responsibility Administration possibly be more out of touch?
Like I said, Susan, Bush has no repsonsibility for the aftermath of this storm. None.
I just watched a woman on TV holding a baby that was dying. The baby was non-responsive, she wasn’t sure if the child would last through the next few hours. What in the world is going on here? We are talking about gas prices? Let’s get the people out already. I read Homeland Security’s response, it looks great. The reality in New Orleans looks like Baghdad right after US troops took over. Unbelivable. I can’t believe that this is the best we can do.
Thanks for helping aaron. Your words are inspirational and will surely lift the spirits of those who suffer all along the Gulf Coast.
Oh, wait! They have no power to read them. Maybe you should go on a speaking tour of the area, spread your wisdom, give your counsel, and make yourself available to those who need such encouragement.
in aarons eyes Bush is responsible for the rapes and killings also..go figure
but such is life
I am amazed at the statements made by “Diane C. Russell — 09.01.05 @ 12:02 pm”
“Local government officials permitted, even encouraged, home-building and economic development in flood-prone areas.”
Actually this building was federaly supported and promoted in the late 1980’s. Does she even know the history of the area?
Practically every resposnbility she is transfering to local authorities is by law a FEMA responsibility.
She may not like it and prefer laisse faire “Manditory evactuaion” but she ought to read up a bit before simply reversing all of the responsibilities already defined ny law.
“It’s been 4 years since 9/11 and supposedly Homeland Security is in place to handle the aftermath of a large-scale terrorist attack.”
A hurricane is hardly the province of the Department of Homeland Security.
However, I do agree with one of the gentlemen in charge down in New Orleans who said “This is a national disgrace. We can send massive aid to the tsunami victims, but we can’t help New Orleans” Or something like that. Basically, the government, no matter who is in charge, is more apt to help foreigners than its own taxpayers, and THAT is a disgrace and needs to stop, period.
Dan
Dan – a hurricane is the province of the DHS. Why? Because FEMA is part of DHS. DHS has a a contingency plan in place for most everything. Hurrican Katrina is no different than a major terrorist attack. If terrorist has driven truck bombs in levees would the effect be any different? No – New Orleans would be under water. They even got two days warning with the hurricane and still they did nothing. Imagine how they would respond to terrorist attack. Four years after Sept. 11 and we still don’t have a workable response system. The president himself said the response was inadequate.
“in aarons eyes Bush is responsible for the rapes and killings also..go figure”
That statement is a total mischaraterization. I never said any such thing – not even anywhere close to that. Typical right-wing case of needing to reduce everything to a simple-minded world of black and white.
If you think that the federal government’s response has been in any way inadequate, or that Adminsitration policies may have in any way contributed to the disaster, or that Bush’s leadership has been lacking here, then you must think Bush is to blame for rape?? Non-sequitur, indeed.
Sheesh – in the minds of most of the wing-nuts, you are either for the GOP or you are against Jesus. It’s just that simple.
Dan -
“Basically, the government, no matter who is in charge, is more apt to help foreigners than its own taxpayers, and THAT is a disgrace and needs to stop, period.”
I agree. And in the hours after Katrina had passed over New Orleans, and was clearly a huge disaster, our President was in California playing the guitar in front of one of his usual crowds of hand-picked party loyalists, and comparing the war in Iraq to World War II, and himself to FDR.
It is important to point out that on Monday it would have been a little early to be partisan about a natural disaster. Perhaps even Tuesday. But it is Friday, and we’re not really dealing with a national disaster anymore. We’re dealing with problems created by incompetence and laziness. We’re dealing with a state governor who didn’t have the reserve troops needed to recover from a hurricane, because they’re in Iraq. We’re dealing with a federal government, that knew the troops were in Iraq and still moved like molasses to bring troops from other states. It is Friday. The relief operation that should have started on Monday has started today. The federal government and specifically the commander in chief of the armed forces bears direct responsibility for those deaths and the violence. Thousands of soldiers on the streets on Monday and we wouldn’t have seen the violence. We would have seen far fewer deaths. Yes there are bad people causing problems in New Orleans, but there are always opportunists. There aren’t normally presidents who can’t be bothered to attempt to solve a problem until 4 days after it started.
The mayor of New Orleans is a complete joke. Black folks I’m talking to y0ou right now. I hope this has taught you a lesson in ethics at every level. You need rethink the socialist mindset that you all have had for sometime. I noticed that in the other parts of the gulf you didn’t see the looting and stealing of tv’s and jewelry. This shows how craven and morally depraved and shameless you are. It is time for our people to realize that racism had nothing to do with this. This guy is probably the biggest schlamiel I ever seen. And you didn’t help the situation by acting like a bunch of buffoons! If Nagin thought he had any chances of moving up in Politics after this, he can forget it. He refused to call Martial Law, and Governor Blanco behaves as if she has had a nervous breakdown. Neither one of these people showed any kind of leadership in this mess and then you have to add the reckless and irresponsible reporting of the media, I don’t know wh Bush is going to tighten down on them. They helped make a chaotic situation a lot worse.
Factoid: New Orleans has the lowest rate of car ownership in the US. 116,000 households in New Orleans do not own an automobile. New Orleans also has the hasn’t poverty rate of any city in the US: 38%.
aaron,
so does that justify the anarchy??? NO!
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