You can guess what I think of slavery reparations, but I’ll hold my tongue for now. I want to know what you think. Brown University created a committee to discuss the issue. Writer John McWhorter and others are scheduled to publicly discuss slavery reparations.
Other sources:
- Project 21 Slavery Reparations Information Center
- NPR
- Reparations Central
- Rep. John Conyers’s Reparations Page
- Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks - and Racist Too
Update: I missed McWhorter’s latest on National Review, but here’s link to ‘Racism!’ They Charged.
You may also be interested in this post about a book forum I attended where McWhorter and others discussed similar issues.
Update II: An interesting idea has emerged. Would you agree to pay slavery reparations to black Americans, however defined (assume for a moment that payors and payees can be easily determined), in exchange for ending government-mandated skin color preferences?
Update III: I especially like this passage from Horowitz’s column:
Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, trillions of dollars in transfer payments have been made to African-Americans in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences (in contracts, job placements and educational admissions) - all under the rationale of redressing historic racial grievances. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African-Americans and other Americans. If trillion dollar restitutions and a wholesale rewriting of American law (in order to accommodate racial preferences) for African-Americans is not enough to achieve a “healing,” what will?
I’ve said the same thing myself over and over. Reparations have been and are being paid, and people still aren’t satisfied. They want cash.
About the rewriting of law, that’s exactly what happened during the Civil Rights movement in order to dismantle government-mandated segregation. State laws against race mixing were state issues and should’ve been handled by the states, some said. Because of the odious nature of racial discrimination, it had to be dealt with on a national level, others said.
Arguments can and have been made on both sides that government-mandated, skin color segregation was immoral. Arguments can and have been made that government-mandated skin color preferences are immoral. But where does all the rhetoric get us?
Update IV (9/29) : Thanks for the comments. Here’s what I think of slavery reparations:
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Wow, the first (if I can hurry)!
More money never, never solves financial problems. An individual or community must change the paradigm on which it operates for any lasting benefit. So, my first question is, “what happens when the money runs out?”
Reparations give blacks the opportunity to live as victims instead of in victory. They won the Civil War. In fact, in “It Takes a Family” Senator Santorum points out that by 1900 Harlem had a real estate company that employed over 200 people and North Carolina had “Black Wall Street” where over 100 businesses were owned by blacks. He concludes, “What really changed the economic terrain for African-Americans was something else: the arrival of liberal welfare policies, the liberal cultural [sic] of victimhood, and poorly thought-out liberal urban renewal”.
Reparations don’t address the real issues in the much of the African American community. It only gives excuse to years of bad liberal policies and, avoiding the real issue, justifies the current condition.
I’d like to see how they figure out who would get it. Should I get money although I don’t need or want it? And for those (I did not say all) who currently waste their money on gold, nails, hair, booze, cigarettes and lotto tickets (yet complain that no one is taking care of them), what happens when they waste any reparation money given to them? Do they get more cause they are still stuck in the same “poverty” boat they were in before they got the money?
I’m with JR, until the mindset and priorities are changed it’s all just another waste of our tax dollars and will only make those who are lost, even more lost.
In Senator Santorum’s book, “It takes a family,” he says that by 1900 a Harlem, black-owned real estate company employed over 200 people and North Carolina had “Black Wall Street,” a business community where over 100 black-owned businesses thrived. What happened? “…the arrival of liberal welfare policies, the liberal cultural [sic] of victim-hood, and poorly thought out liberal urban renewal.”
More money doesn’t solve financial problems. Only a radical change in the paradigm from which people operate can make real and lasting change for the black community.
Black Americans won the Civil War, they didn’t lose it. They have the same right to the same inheritance that we all have. Reparations increase dependency instead of freeing those most hurt by victim- and race-mongers.
Oops. posted twice. sorry.
I needed to read it twice JR
If white people share a collective guilt for the institution of slavery, then what share of collective gratitude should black people have towards the white people who gave their lives so that they could be free?
La Shawn:
Universities are just the right places for such worthless pursuits. Real businesses would not takt time for such nonsense, because discussing reparations doesn’t generate capital.
My wife Dolores’s parents were slaves of the Nazis in Poland. She received an application for “reparations” a few years before her mother died around 2000. She tossed it - she didn’t believe Germans who weren’t even born then should pay for the sins of the Nazis.
Being the great (+many) grandson of Irish and German immigrants in the latter half of the 19th century, I feel no guilt, or white-man’s burden for slavery. Hell, one of my great-patriarchs made shoes for soldiers in the Union Army, and another several died fighting for the Union cause, but I find no evidence that my family was in the South and repressing slaves.
I can find ample evidence of Irish hate and Irish oppression in the Northeast.
Hey, you think I should call for reparations for being Irish?
I’m against reparations mainly because there’s no fair way to determine who would be paid. Would lighter-skinned blacks like myself be paid less? Would the “one-drop” rule apply to those that have African-American descendants even if they appeared to be caucasian like my great-grandmother.
The Jews got reparations for the Holocaust from countries and companies involved in it,the Japanese held illegally during World War ll in the United States got reparations.The Oil-For-Food program in Iraq was created to also help the country pay reparations to Kuwait. Historically billions of units of different currencies have been exchanged courtesy of reparations.
However,when it comes to the black man, all kinds of excuses why it should not be paid will spring up.The worst is the Black man that has become so educated and disconnected from history that they also argue that reparations is not worth being paid. The argument is, “I wasn’t there to percieve the stench of the slaves defeacating on themselves in the slave ships or i can’t feel the emotions or wetness of the waterhoses used on people in Mississippi. Reparations should be paid.
Chains were involved in the slave trade and I’m not too educated to recognize that this was a tragedy of epic proportions. For Black people who are against this I am not surprised. Not all skin folk are Kin folk.
Yes, I’ve heard this argument before. For some reason, God forgot to give me the Guide for Authentic Black People when I was born. Blacks who don’t agree with mainstream black liberal opinion are not “kin folk.” I’ve consider that a compliment these days. - Admin
The most pernicious part of this idea is that it will have the same allure as trying to win the lottery. Many people will one more excuse to put the financial planning for their lives on hold while they “wait” for reparations.
Sorry, my ancestors were in Naples at the time. Looks like this is one handout I am exempt from!
Oh by the way, for those of you who actually had family here pre-1864 and are not exempt, I’m sure the reparitistic sacrifices made at places like Gettysburg, Shiloh and Fredricksburg count.
The bottom line is, I don’t think, from an accounting point of view, there are any “credits” left after you subtract the “debits”. Seems to me to be pretty much a wash.
Just wait till the greedy lawyers get involved.
Debbie Schlussel has some interesting stuff on the “Holocash” Holocaust reparations.
I’m still wondering why Native Americans are entitled to free land, sovereignty, and tax breaks for casinos, under the ridiculous “Native American Act”.
Uh oh, I hope I’m not giving anyone any ideas.
And, Native Americans were never enslaved.
Oh by the way, when it comes to those payments made to Holocaust survivors and Japanese Americans sent to internment camps, those reparations were made to THOSE THAT ACTUALLY SURVIVED THROUGH THOSE INCIDENTS, not relatives.
Why not repatriation? I propose that anyone who feels put upon by our society be granted 40 acres and a tractor in the country of their choice in return for the promise never to return to the US.
My guilt string broke a long time ago.
Anyone who can trace their family tree back far enough will find some egregious act against one or more of their relatives at some point in history. This is just another quest for something for nothing; and it also begs the question of whether a white person marrying or adopting a black person is eligible for reparations.
Idiongo Udoh comment “Not all skin folk are Kin folk.” According to Jesus you are right, that’s why La Shawn is my sister
Mark 3:31-35
31Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him.
32And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.â€
33But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?â€
34And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!
35For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.â€
James #18
AMEN Brother
Glamchild:
“All Negro, mulatto and Indian slaves within this dominion…shall be held to be real estate. If any slave resist his master…correcting such slave, and shall happen to be killed in such correction…the master shall be free of all punishment…as if such accident never happened.”
–Virginia Code of Law, 1705.
Indians were slaves to the Europeans in the late 1400s (possibly earlier) right through to the late 1800s.
First I just want to say I love your website! Second, the notion of reparations is ridiculous! We would do better teaching African American living in poverty how to spend the they money have wisely would be better. Some of us are still in slavery (Welfare, hate whitey mentality).
What are affirmative action programs, if not reparations? What was $7 trillion in poverty spending if not reparations? What were 500,000 dead men on the battlefields of the Civil War if not reparations? What are set-aside programs, and federal housing programs,and many billions to New Orleans poor if not reparations? For a person whipped and held in chains, no amount of money is great enough to wash away the wounds, but for great great descendants, what amount do we put on the check? For all of the college graduates, business owners, middle class, and wealthy…how much would it cost to wipe away the bitterness? How do we, as a country, soothe the wounds, and stay whole? Or do you, who cry for reparations care? Is it really about amends…or is it about money? Is it about making people’s lives whole, or is it about making people instantly well-off? What is this debate about?
It’s not black people that need to be fixed, it’s poverty. That can only be fixed with a desire to earn money and a work ethic. I’ve never had trouble finding a job doing something, even if it’s washing floors in a fast food place.
Excellent point by Anna. It’s not like black Africans are the only people who have ever been held in slavery. If you give reparations to one group, you have to give them to all. And that would mean everyone, since just about every race of people has been enslaved by another at some point in history.
And how do you determine who pays what to whom? My family history is sketchy in the slavery era, but best we can determine we didn’t have any slaves - we weren’t wealthy enough to acquire any. Does that exempt me from paying reparations? (I’m sure the Jesse Jacksons of the world would say no.)
The concept is nonsensical.
While my initial reaction is “Heck No” I’d be willing to consider the followinng deal: Reperations - BIG CASH reparations - in return for “quitsies”.
No more affirmative action. No more race-based voting districts. No more race questions on the Census form. Our government and legal system, and any institutions they support, go completely and forever color blind. The debt has been paid, it’s over, let us never speak of it again.
I’d be willing to blow a pretty substantial wad of tax money if I could get that.
Also, my respect for Brown has dropped yet again. Does anyone seriously believe that in a democracy 90% of the population is going to vote to give their money to 10%? Or long allow courts to order them to do so?
In practical terms, the reparations movement has always been ridiculous. Anyone who spends a lots of time or effort on it obviously has nothing useful to do with his time.
Guilt money, nothing more. Paid to whom, on what basis? Paid by whom, on what basis? It’s all nonsense.
My ancestors held no slaves. Many were Mennonite abolitionists long before such things became fashionable. Others were members of the Indiana and Illinois regiments of the Union army, fighting and dying against the side that supported slavery.
But all that aside, no one alive today is obligated, or owed, by anything done by, or to, their ancestors.
Btw, point of order: Will my two cousins, who are half white and half black, have to pay reparations to themselves? Or do they only get half of the reparations that other folks get? I need to know this stuff, so I can tell them what to expect.
Reparations is not only a bad idea but I believe it is morally reprehensible to cause a group of people to pay for the sins of a past group. It makes no sense whatsoever.
If that is the case then why not go over to West Africa and demand reperation from those tribes and groups that not only owned slaves themselves but sent most of their own “kin folk” to the middle passage?
Anyone who supports reperations and allows the current so called leaders who speak on behalf of the black community to head up such a measure is foolish. These peole are looking to milk the government for major amounts of cash for themselves and to dole out to their cronies. No average black person would actually directly or indirectly benefit from any form of reperations.
Consider: Maybe, just maybe, reparations has already begun under another name and under other auspices with the post-Katrina federal money being poured into NOLA, and the kinds of guilt trips and accusations that have been made to justify that spending. Just a thought.
I’m against reparations. First of all, slavery was a LONG time ago, so who would be able to get them? There are a lot of people in the U.S. with mixed backgrounds, so what would define a descendent of a slave? And there are people who are considered “black” but they have lighter skin than white people I know.
Reparations are for people who have been done wrong–directly. The DIRECT victims of the wrongdoing. There is no one alive now who was a slave. It’s just another way to shake down the government.
Actually, according to the shakedown artists’ view, I should get reparations from Egypt because they enslaved “my people” for years and those pyramids that tourists now enjoy were built with “my people’s” blood and sweat.
The poverty of the descendants of slaves is besides the point. If reparations are right then it doesn’t matter if the victims are now poor or rich. Should the Germans have refused money to holocaust survivors just because they, the Jews, made some money in the mean time?
I agree with the many arguments here against reparations. Basically they boil down to this: The current descendants of slaves did not suffer because of slavery. And the rest of the country has not profited from slavery. This would simply be another example of A telling B to hand money to C.
And of course C’s lawyers get obscenely rich.
And what about reparations from the tribes along the coast of Africa which made the first money off of the slaves by selling their captives to the white slave traders?
If there’s one thing to get white people fired up over it’s reparations or the recognition of this country’s wrong against its own. The fact of the matter is that whites have had their own RACIAL PREFERENCE in this country for centuries. White skin (then and now) has its advantages.
Funny how you never complain about corporate welfare and the unabashed corruption of this current administration. I suppose it’s no problem to go to war based on the slimmest of suppositions, but with the ultimate goal of overturning a foreign government. Now we’re wasting lives and money for God knows what!
No, I don’t agree with reparations because all I’ve ever wanted (and Praise God now I’ve got it!) is an opportunity for an education and a means to support my family. That’s all that our ancestors ever wanted. Our ancestors deserve a memorial - a museum dedicated to their struggle for freedom and their unheralded contributions to this country.
A handout is a handout is a handout … ad nauseum!! Excuse me while I run to the little room!! Then I shall return and continue to teach my beautiful black grandchildren how to fish!
I think that Slavery reparations should be made in the amount of $10 million to all former slaves, and the money given to their descendants. And it should be paid in 2011, when the Inheritance Tax is scheduled to go back up.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone heard any concrete proposal from any of those espousing reparations? I was thinking as I was driving around today, that I probably ought to have an understanding of the idea BEFORE I bash it….:)
We might know your conclusion but how you reach them are very important.
Do you think reparation for victims of Jim Crow is justified if they are still alive ?
Do you think it ok for people labor to be taken without just compensation ?
Reparations is not a subject that can be and waived away.
Scott;
No one in their right mind thinks it is acceptable for human beings to labor without just compensation. My father’s grand-parents were indentured servants from Ireland, and it doesn’t strike me that we would tolerate their living conditions today. Jim Crow was abhorrent. But, here’s the problem…How does one realistically go about identifying those who would be compensated? For example, do you bar all of the descendants of free black men who owned slaves from any compensation? What constitutes a just compensation? How does one assess the degree of suffering? The logistics are mind-boggling.
I’m still struggling with vkv’s desire to drag Iraq, George Bush and corporations into a discussion about reparations. Maybe I’m missing something. Or maybe I’m not.
Mr James Newman, In the issue of reparations you cannot play that Jesus game with me because I am a born-again christian.
If you do your research you’ll find out that Reparations has been as old as civilization itself. Does the Bible you quote out of context talk about “Restitution of sins”?
At least there has been public apologies about things like Apartheid and the like. Will it ever happen with the apparent high majority of christians like you?
How about today’s slavery in the Diamond mines in Africa? Do you have a bible quotation for that?
Maybe it is all fine and dandy as long as we buy those diamonds in the mall in the name of Jesus.
I would say that Reparations may not be financial, how about an apology from our “christian brethren” that are descendants of the perpetuators of these horrific crimes? I bet you cannot find the part of the bible where our Lord and Savior talked about Restitution.
RedBeard;
Cracking up over #28 and in total agreement with your #40…
Although it’s hard (maybe impossible) for me to think of a criticism of reparations (both practical and theoretical) that’s not justified, I would nevertheless consider a proposal to pay x amount (leave aside to whom for now) as part of a bargain to eliminate all racial preferences everywhere.
Idiongo Udoh
Tell me how when replying to your comment “Not all skin folk are Kin folk” then using to quote of Jesus comparing Kin (blood) to true kin (spiritual) which is based on the obedience to Gods’ word and not skin quoted out of context??
I am just trying to address the character robert that asked the question,
And what about reparations from the tribes along the coast of Africa which made the first money off of the slaves by selling their captives to the white slave traders?
I will tell you this as a descendant of Africans from Nigeria.The tribes sold their own brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, fathers, mothers, under gunpoint of the white slave dealers that were international representatives of countries that needed slaves. Money paid was based on the thought that money could replace the lost relatives. Refusal to do this always lead to foreign troops wiping out whole regions and villages for refusal to comply.
You history is shaky.
I’ve heard bad ideas, but UPDATE II is horrible. No offense or anything.
Each can stand on their own merits apart from bargining. I believe both these questions have moral implications. And, as such, (given that morality is an external standard), should be fought on that basis alone.
Dave Chappelle did a hilarious piece on reparations on his show a couple years ago and highlighted –however comically– the problems of reparations would be.
Mr James Newman what is so spiritual about your refusal to admit that a really horrid treatment of people happened sometime in this nation’s history?
Yes, I meant what I said that people of the same race (skin folk) may not think in the same spirit (kin folk).
Just like in the time of Jesus Christ their were Jews who loved Jesus truly and their were Jews who couldn’t help but lick Ceasar’s boots.
As a “christian” Brother you are a defender of the truth. So tell me was slavery a crime or not and must restitution be done or not “christian” brother?
Will the millions of Asian and Hispanic-Americans be paying reparations?
I just wonder on who would have to pay for these reparations? I am going to guess it would come out of our tax dollars.
Then it would seem that some black folks would be paying them selves?
The other question I have is who would get “Reparations”? Only those living ex-slaves? or all people with darker skin pigmintation? Will Albino’s with african american heritage be give reperation’s? Will white people who have African american great great grandmothers or Fathers be included in “Reparations”?
Will the African American’s that have Immagrated to this country or there mothers and fathers did be Included in “reperation’s”?
Will that Crazy White woman that works with me with the crazy Accent, whom Immigrated here from South Africa, whose Father is a Light skinned South African be allowed in the “Reparations”?
What is a Fair amount to give for something like this? Isn’t it Insulting that a few hundred years ago white men Bought and sold Black people and now it seems that the current self proclaimed black Leadership is selling you all over again?
Only this time you wont have to pick cotton, Instead they are selling something that you can never get back, and that is called Pride and Honor.
How Much will the Rev. Jessie Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton get? Should people like Puffy and Xzibit get the same amount as say a single African American Mother with 2 kids?
(Ok I must say I hate saying African American, it Bug’s me to no end… and if you must know why it is simple to me there is no such thing as African Americans, they are just American’s Plain and simple. But that is just me a silly Midwestern White boy with Italian, Irish and American Indian Heritage, but at the end of the day Just another American.)
Idiongo Udou, Africans actively supported the slave trade! It is crazy to think that a few europeans with leaky wooden ships and flint-lock muskets could just land on the west coast of Africa and abduct anyone they felt like? You should try to fire a flint-lock, the guy who knows how to throw a spear would win every time. There was always complicity with the local Chief, and is to this day. God Bless America!
Mr Tom Bosee:
Till this day we have the ruins of Military outpost in Africa built to make the trade lucrative for countries that needed slaves.I will not buy your idea of trying to prove that spears were superior to gunfire. It is the same argument we used to attack Iraq(They got weapons of mass destruction).
On the other hand,come and show me the great wealth Africa acquired from the slave trade. Also I would advise you to do your research about what happened to chiefs that rebelled.
I look down at your attempts to divide and conquer.
I totally agree with the idea of reparations for slavery. I think anybody who is still living and was brought here, or born into slavery should receive 10 million dollars and be exempt from state and local taxes for life…..its only fair.
slavery reparations? no.
jim crow/segregation reparations. yes.
So… my cousins won’t be eligible for the Jim Crow cash, since they were born after the Civil Rights Act. Man, they’re gonna be ticked off.
I think JD (#50) has made some good points. Here are two questions for supporters of reparations.
1. Should recent immigrants (from Africa & Haiti, for example) get a share of these reparations?
2. Do people of mixed race get shares as well, partial shares (perhaps a sliding scale based upon the content of their skin), or no shares?
These questions are not just theoretical one to me. My wife was born in East Africa. Our child -due in a few months - will be a mixed race child. What kind of a racial environment will he or she grow up in? I am angry at race hustlers like Jesse Jackson, Rep. John Coyers, and Howard Dean who make their living by fanning as much racial hatred and tension as they possibly can. Has it occured to these “gentlemen” that we don’t want any part of their toxic racial politics? At what point does the past finally (and mercifully) get left in the past? When is enough enough?
Amen to that #51! Let common sense prevail please!
All too often it seems people tend to portray blacks as hapless, helpless groups of child-like creatures, so innocent until the evil white European came over to exploit and corrupt them. Please stop! Do black people really think so lowly of themselves!?
If Africans were forced to sell their own into slavery then wouldn’t it be absolutely reprehensible to even think of enslaving any black African today? Yet, it goes on as we sit and type here in the Sudan!
The idea of reperations at this day and time is down right evil on its face.
Mwalimu Daudi~
I agree with you on the Race hustlers, as far as when will the past be just that the past, that will only happen when people can not get political capital out of it.
Someone should ask Jessie Jackson what Political party Martin Luther King belonged to, and ask that question when Jessie is basking in the lights of the T.V. News folks. My bet it would get edited out but it is worth a shot.
and always remember Libs have long believe that they need to Divide us as a Nation to take control and then “help us” with there welfare state dream (I can’t help but think of the Soviet Union in the 80’s and there food lines when I think of the libs Welfare state.) Divide and conquer…
Tom Bosee - yes you are correct. I grew up in Nigeria and I have not only read the history of slavery, but I’ve also heard about the history in Nigeria from local sources.
The fact is, powerful tribes like the Yoruba in areas like Benin, raided smaller tribes and took slaves. This practice also went on in Ghana and the Ivory Coast. There was an arab/North African connection and traders crossed the Sahara and bartered with tribal leaders. So many of these slaves first went east and north - not west to America.
You are also correct in saying that there is no way Europeans could have come to West Africa and launched expeditions to get slaves in the numbers they took them. This is an absurd idea. They acquired slaves because the local African leaders co-operated with them for payments.
Slavery is a repulsive and immoral practice, but if I was looking for reparations maybe I would get together with others and attempt a law suit that targets countries such as Nigeria and Ghana, because it was in those jurisdictions that free men and women were first enslaved and then sold to Europeans. Such a law suite would likely be impossible, but in some ways it makes sense because that’s where the practice arose and is the reason West African men and women ended up in America.
I would like to hear La Shawn’s views in more detail on this. It’s a complex issue and I feel torn on this question of reparations to be honest, if only because slavery was such a barbaric and repulsive institution, no matter who was doing it and for whatever reason.
Idiongo Udoh
Ok, I’ll try this again you made a claim that I quoted scriptures out of context when I made reference to your comment “Not all skin folk are Kin folk†(and nothing ELSE) when I used Mark 3:31-35 were Jesus was saying the same thing. Please tell me how did I take that scripture out of contexts.
Idiongo Udoh,
Last time I checked, Holocaust survivors got reparations. Not Jews. Just survivors. Not survivor’s children. Just survivors. Got any slavery survivors who need reparations?
Then we need to speak of reparations Blacks owe America. For turning American cities into slums. And creating a climate of fear to walk in the streets. I’ld call it even and be thankful you are here and not in Nigeria or Zimbabwe or some other African paradise.
Mike
Anna, Post #20: If Indians were slaves in Europe in the 1400s, then maybe Europe is the one who should dole out free land and reservations. Let ‘em clutter Europe with their tax-exempt casinos.
America never enslaved the Indians. We taught ‘em agriculture, how to work the land and grow corn. We invited ‘em to our Thanksgiving table, that’s reparations enough.
Repeal the Native American Act, please!
In my opinion, the big issue in the reparations discussion isn’t pigment but poverty. Almost everyone now alive is descended from some slave somewhere, as slavery was practiced almost everywhere for thousands of years (and even considered humane compared to offing defeated opponents.) Figuring out who deserves reparations for slavery based only on heritage would be difficult.
On the other hand, we need to get serious about helping life-long Americans with significant African heritage among our citizenry who are not making it in America through no obvious fault of their own to join their more-successful peers in the ownership society, for the good of us all.
My suggestion for this would be to gradually transfer ownership of public housing to its tenants. Naturally, lots of education about what it means to own a condo as part of an association of owners rather than rent an apartment as an individual would be needed. There would also need to be strong protections against recipients being conned out of the new property for years to come.
The benefit to the government of such a plan is that it would transfer assets to the poor immediately, but the bill for doing so would be paid very gradually over thirty years, as bonds that financed affected buildings are paid off.
So Man in the middle you are suggesting that we only do this for the “African American” Poor?
and who decides whom is a candidate for your Idea?
How to you suggest that we Test these people to find out if there poverty is because they are black or if because they are lazy dope fiends, or Welfare Addicts that see no reason to get off there asses and work a 9 to 5 so long as the government is willing to shell out extra cash for every baby they have? (Please note: the above description is not all the poor, not even a majority, and the description is not racial at all because I can point out where my description applies to white, blacks, browns, greens, tans, dark purples and peach skinned folks.)
Oh and please understand if you do this Program for African Americans then the rest of the poor are going to jump and down and call you a racist bastard.
One of the worst things about reparations is not the can of worms it opens (it does).
The worst thing is that the best thing to tell someone, even if all the bad things that happened are a cause of something beyond their control, is that they need to take responsibility for themselves. Telling someone they aren’t responsible for their own situation will hurt the person in the long run.
Does this make sense?
Telling them they are simply a cog in a machine…what good will that do? They won’t take responsibility for their bad situation even when it is their fault.
I would say to people: “A lot of bad things will happen to you that aren’t your fault. A lot of bad things will happen to that is your fault. Be the best person you can be. Help your fellow man. Don’t keep a record of wrongs against you.”
I think the closest that we’ve come so far to a reparations-type scheme is the tobacco rip-off *ahem* settlement that put billions in state coffers for the (supposed) purpose of preventing children from smoking and providing medical care for existing smokers.
If you are a smoker, consider this: how much of the tobacco settlement money have you personally seen? Did you get a check in the mail for $20,000 or $50,000 or $100,000? Will your state provide guaranteed, first-rate free medical care for you if you are diagnosed with a smoking-related illness? Will you ever see one dime of that money?
If there is ever such a thing as slavery reparations in this country, watch for these things to happen:
1) One or more fat-cat law firms will “negotiate” the settlement and keep 30% for themselves — or maybe it will be NAACP or Rainbow Coalition lawyers, who knows?
2) The money will be put into a “trust fund,” and not dispersed to individuals. And who will be the board of directors for this trust fund? Why, our esteemed “black leadership” - Jackson, Jackson Jr. (can you say “legacy?”), Sharpton, Rangell, Conyers, Mfume, Bond, Obama, etc. And naturally the hard work involved in managing the reparations trust fund will require a nice six-figure salary for each of the board members — for life of course.
Think Jackson and Sharpton are race hustlers and shakedown artists now? Just wait ’till they are empowered with the key to the reparations lock box. Anyone who wants a cut will have to pledge to hoe the black liberal victim-hood plantation for the rest of their lives.
Man in the Middle, if you really want to get serious about helping the poor then take government out of the equation and you just might have a solution.
What bugs me is that in Chicago, this isn’t just some idea–there are a lot of opportunistic baffoons who want reparations and are always bugging Da Mayor about it. It’s a constant quagmire of complaining, blame-everything-on-the-white-man environment.
How many of these folks do you see expressing their outrage about slavery that exists in the world today? How many of them are taking to the streets in protest or to demand that the world wipe it out? Where is it on the UN agenda?
How many of those so guilt-ridden have divested all they own and paid for the sins of the past? I’m willing to bet that all the answers are negative. Besides, the pro-reparations folk want to give someone else’ money away, not theirs.
I don’t give a flying fig what happens with reparations. I am smart, ambitious, and I can do/have whatever I set my mind to. I’m cute, too.
But, I’ll tell you what. IF I decided that my family deserved reparations, I wouldn’t go to Uncle Sam with my hand out. I’d go straight to the source.
My family KNOWS who owned us. In fact, we’re BLOOD relatives. Y’all ever heard of an “open secret”?
I don’t see how reparations would work anyway. For example, how can they validate all the claims? It’s been so long and the paper work back then was kind of hit and miss. I’m sure also there will be a lot of claimants who try to take advantage of the system by falsifying their personal history etc
Seems like a bureaucratic nightmare.
I’m from Ireland and the English murdered a lot of Gaels and plundered our land for CENTURIES. Should the English pay the sons and daughters of those they murdered, raped and oppressed?
Okay my position would be that I would refuse this money. Why? Because it implies that I need their charity, and I don’t. An apology, yes for sure. Just the way the Japanese owe an apology to the Chinese for the appalling and barbaric treatment handed out during prior invasions.
I can’t speak for black Americans. Their situation was worse. They were forcefully taken from their native soil and held in captivity. Maybe accepting such reparations will be a downer - it may make them feel as though they are cap-in-hand in front of Uncle Sam. I know I wouldn’t like it, but that’s just me. I would rather wash dishes or busk on the street with my guitar before I would take government money. It’s pride I guess. Same time I wouldn’t blame someone for taking reparations. Nobody can really know another person’s pain, or another person’s sense of grievance.
I’m enjoying following the comments in here. Some great insights.
So the question is, will I pay some unspecified reparations to eliminate racialism in this country? Let me get this straight - I am being asked if I am willing to pay a large amount of money to an extortionate group, in order to be allowed to perform an action that is logically and ethically mandated in and of itself. This is what the old books called paying Dane-geld. Only problem is it never, not once, not ever, got rid of the Danes.
Do I get extra credit for using DAnes (Vikings) as an example that could not possibly be associated with American racial and ethnic based forced servitude in any way whatsoever?
Reparations for something the people asking for it weren’t involved in.
Me ‘apologize’ (being white) and make reparations for something I had nothing to do with..
Hmm…Seems wrong to me. My ancestors (2000 years ago) were put in the arena and killed by lions for the amusement of the Romans at the time. Hmm…Roman…Italian….Maybe I should ask for reparations there too….
This whole thing begets only more anger and resentment ON BOTH SIDES. It solves nothing and
perpetuates the liberal stigma that black people need help. They don’t in that sense. What they need is a better education, but not thru affirmative action, thru hard word, dedication and perseverance.
And oh, while I’m at it, no matter what your skin color is, I’m still your brother. We are humans, regardless of race. No one, and I repeat, NO ONE, is any better than anyone else simply because they have a skin tone of white, black, red, yellow, purple, green, whatever. I don’t care, I don’t see it, unless it’s thrown in my face.
You want equal rights? Then please act like my equal (which you are!).
Dan
#62 Glamchild - “America never enslaved the Indians. We taught ‘em agriculture, how to work the land and grow corn. We invited ‘em to our Thanksgiving table, that’s reparations enough.”
I’m confused by this statement. Are you saying that the colonists taught the Natives how to grow corn and work this soil? Perhaps I’ve read all the wrong history books, but I always thought it was the Natives who taught the colonists what would grow here and how to grow it, thus saving their butts from starvation.
Oh yeah, back on topic: down with reparations!
I’ve heard a number of individuals who espouse reparations say they just want some sort of an apology from America….Do any of you posters interpret any of the actions America has taken, from the Civil War to Civil Rights, to poverty programs, to constitute ‘a very real apology? Would some people rather hear a smooth talking political message than see actions on the ground? So often, I think people loved Clinton so much because he could ‘empathize with their pain’…As long as people were around, he was a great reflector. But, empathizing isn’t the same as ‘doing’. Am I wrong about this?….
You’re dead on target, Jan. Liberals love to talk and claim to be understanding and sensitive, but words are cheap. When I saw Bill Clinton bite his lower lip (rehearsed in front of a mirror, no doubt) and declare that he feels our pain, I thought I was going to lose my lunch.
T’anks…RedBeard…I find the phenomenon with Clinton to be utterly fascinating. Tammy Bruce wrote about it in ‘Death of Right and Wrong’. Here we have a man who has convinced feminists that he ‘feels their pain’ and ’suffers with them’, and just to prove it, he rapes, molests, has sex, and objectifies as many as he can possibly fit into his schedule, while betraying his spouse. To me, we have become such a politically correct society, that we now value those who ‘SAY all the right things’ more than we value those who ‘DO all the right things’. And, by golly, if they can do it with charisma, they are akin to gods….I’m assuming that this dynamic accounts for Castro’s popularity among the left. Saying he loves the little people is apparently more important than letting the little people live a life not wallowing in abject poverty or fear…or just letting them live…
I meant SAY it with charisma…
Lol jan brauner - very good insight into Clinton’s hypocrisies. The man was slightly schitzophrenic I think, the right hand never knew what the left hand was doing and vice versa. Or maybe he was just a cunning dog who got caught
Reparations were paid by the blood of Union soldiers.
Aidan;
I used to live in Kilsheelan, on the border of Tipperary and Waterford, outside of Clonmel. Ireland more than rocked!
My ancestors got thrown out of Ireland.
My ancestors left out the back door, but I snuck back in…:)
I believe that Jim Crow owes all those African-Americans that he humiliated and their families. The ones that could’t sit, drink or live. I think him and others responsible with him should pay reparations.
Reparations - Please se Freedman’s Bureau after the Civil War. For 10 years it’s job was to help ex-slaves. You know the people who deserved Reparations.
I know, I know the Freedman’s Bureau wasn’t as good as it could have been but then WHAT GOVERNMENT BUREAU IS???? It was there at the right places at the right time helping those who needed the help. THAT IS WHAT REPARATIONS ARE.
As for todays Reparations, do you really think the Black Leaders(???) are talking about money handouts to INDIVIDUALS. NEVER!!! What they want is a NEW Freedman’s Bureau(Under a PC name), RUN BY THEM, funded buy the tax payers. The so called Black Leaders would control who was on the payroll, how, when, where, and to who the money was spent(given). Just think of the boondoggle this would be. Talk about corruption. The Blacks on the street would be LUCKY to see 10% of the money.
That is what Reparations means a New BLACK RUN government bureau run by Blacks, for Blacks, paid for by tax payers.
It might be worth it just to see how badly it would be run, how few people would be helped, how many bureaucrats would be convicted. We could just sit back and when ever some Black complained about something just tell them to talk to the Bureau. Yes that might be fun but expensive.
Reparations, be carefull you might get them.
When Reagan approved reparations to internees I said there’d be reprecussions.
I pleaded instead for the same treatment we gave reparations for the Boxer Rebellion. We put it all in a scholarship for Chinese students to study in America.
If there are reparations paid, all deals are off and perhaps skin color means something after all.
Before we pay reparations I think the American people need the following paid back: 1) All past due child support by fathers of black children on welfare. 2) All discount school lunches in low -economic neighborhoods aka..black neighborhoods. 3) Government sponsored “training programs” that teach “computer skills” aka, MSDos and WordPerfect. 4) All welfare benefits claimed by mothers who have their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th baby who say they don’t know who the daddy is. I can go on.
Down with reparations!!!!
I probably used to know, but who is Jim Crow and why was he such a jerk?
Jim Crow was a highly objectionable character in minstrel shows, a character who stereotyped blacks as being silly, lazy and rather dull-witted. The name Jim Crow became a catch-all term for all the segregation laws and policies that forced black people into 2nd class citizenship. In other words, Jim Crow and today’s liberals have a great deal in common.
FL MOM: I don’t know what revisionist history books you are talking about.
Agriculture and farming has it’s roots in Western/Christian Europe. The Christian Bible is full of farming and agriculture. (Sorry, LaShawn, I don’t have the bible quotes to back this up, but I’ll get ‘em.)
The Native (non-Christian) American Indians were starving and were not turning over the land, for profit, or for sustenance.
It was the skilled Colonists who taught and helped the starving Indians.
Colonization was good for everyone, including the Indians, and I don’t know why we need to apologize for it through something as useless and wasteful as the Native American Act.
If welfare == reparations, then FHA loans and GI loans == reparations for white people.
If anyone is silly enough to state that GI loans were open to Black vets, they need to read up some on how Black vets were denied GI loans which they were eligible to get.
How would you determine who paid the reparations? The descendants of those who gave their lives fighting against slavery? The descendants of those who risked their lives running the Underground Railroad? The descendants of those who came to America after slavery had ended? The descendants of those who never even once discriminated against anyone in their lives because of skin?
True or false: All babies are born innocent.
In your post on welfare you had this quote by Star Parker, “More than $7 trillion has been spent on poverty programs since Lyndon Johnson declared his “war on poverty†40 years ago, with effectively zero impact on overall black poverty.”
Wasn’t that enough reparations? With that example in mind, what do they really expect to accomplish other than line a few self-appointed leaders’ pockets.
Really interesting stuff.
If reparations should be paid, I’d suggest the money be collected from descendants of King George and his ancestors. We can’t lay claim against Queen Elizabeth and her line, because they weren’t on the throne yet.
And we can’t fairly take it from US citizens, because our American ancestors didn’t have a homeland.
Oh, I suppose an assertion could be made that we should pay for the 40 - 50 years of slavery we tolerated, between the rematch in 1812 which put an exclamation point on our Declaration of Independence, and the line in the sand that extracted that “last, full measure of devotion;” but my own belief is that our forefathers paid their slavery debt in full.
Post Civil War racism, however, is another matter. But it is not a wound that can be healed with reparations. It cannot fully heal, in fact, until the exploiters stop picking at the scabs.
btw: Native American Indians knew how to grow corn, and introduced it to the settlers. In turn, the settlers shared European gardening tips.
The casino and tax thing goes back to treaties which established American Indians as a separate nation, not subjects of US Government.
Merry Whitney
When are you all going to figure out that there is no USE in talking about this. Why? Because there is no answer. Reparations is a contentious issue and it’s never going to be done, anyway. So, why are folks still feeding the flames of discord and disharmony?
All this comment thread is doing is making the worst come out in people. I don’t see racism here (but some folks are real close to it), but I do see massive ignorance on the part of whites, when it comes to Blacks (including history and culture), on here. There are some truly ignorant, and asinine, comments relating to us in this thread… and it’s a shame.
I didn’t address any of them because it would be a colossal waste of my time. Nothing’s going to change. People would rather spend time arguing and debating over a POINTLESS idea like reparations instead of engaging in earnest, open-minded discourse about the race-related issues that something CAN be done about. But that’s not going to happen, either.. because people are too cowardly to say what needs to be said (on BOTH sides) and then do what needs to be done.
I’m a Black woman in my mid-30s, and I have NO HOPE that race relations in the U.S. will get any better during my lifetime. Heck, in 1903 DuBois made a prediction about this very issue in his book The Souls of Black Folks (if you want to know what it was, look it up for yourself and learn something in the process). That was 102 years ago, and we STILL can’t get it right. So, no… it’s not going to happen in MY lifetime, and unless something MAJOR occurs, I don’t even worry about it.
“People would rather spend time arguing and debating over a POINTLESS idea like reparations instead of engaging in earnest, open-minded discourse about the race-related issues that something CAN be done about.”
What does that mean, Rosalind? This entire blog, and a hundred more, are devoted to open-minded discourse. With all due respect, it seems like the call for discourse, implying that it’s not happening, is coming from those who just don’t like the opinions of half of those currently speaking.
Couldn’t have said it better, RedBeard!
Merry Whitney: Corn was growing in Europe before the settlers got here. It wasn’t a new thing. The treaty that establishes Native Americans as a separate nation is one of the biggest mistakes of all times.
That’s where reparations, taken to their extreme end up: At some point African Americans are entitled “sovereignty” and Separate Nation status, aren’t they?
Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders feel that way. Hawaii has a big problem on it’s hands with native residents, there, thinking they are exempt from United States law.
Once again, I have a hard time understanding why my tax dollars need to provide welfare and free land to people who are operating casinos, and a people who don’t feel they are subject to our laws or Constitution, all because of past discrimination.
My ancestry is Cherokee, English, Irish, German, and Scottish. So let’s see how it works out:
Indian +1 (oppressed by Whites)
White -1 (oppressor)
Scots +1 (oppressed by Englsh)
Irish +1 (oppressed by English)
English -1 (oppressor)
woohoo! I’m at +1… bring on the reparations!
Guess what Ladies and Gentlemen we don’t need reparations anymore. Rather we may need a 2nd phase of dealing with the black man by implementing the policies suggested by former Education Secretary William Bennett in which we,”Abort every black baby in the country to reduce the crime rate”. God bless you all.
Good commenting going on from my old & new brothers & sisters in Christ.
Hehe, if only I had time and a high-speed link, instead of sharing this satellite link with scores of people — slower than dialup. Oh well.
Needless to say, reparations is but a scheme for the elite chosen (self-nominated) few to rake in the dough on behalf of the unfortunate — translation: untrustworthy — masses.
Race relations won’t begin to heal until the race pimps & -pimpees REPENT!
Ciao.
While I can think of many rational reasons why reparations don’t make sense, I have one question that I would like to have answered by those who think reparations are the right thing.
My family first came to the United States in 1922. They never owned slaves, they never trafficed in slaves, they never even benefited by the labor of slaves in the United States. My family struggled to succeed in a country where the opportunities for Jews who didn’t speak english were limited and have always supported the rights of blacks in this country.
Now, given the above facts, how do you justify that I or my family should pay reparations to Afro-Americans?
Gary. I don’t believe in reparations, but reparations is not asking YOU to pay anyone anything. It is asking the U.S. government. The U.S. government is not synonymous with “white” though I’m sure that there are some who look at it that way.
One thing driving the reparations issue is the severe disconnect in people’s minds between taxpayers and government.
The pro-reparations people tend to look at the government of the U.S. as the monolithic entity responsible for perpetrating or allowing past affronts, so government is supposed to pay, using its own money. Trouble is, government has not one penny of its own.
Seldom do pro-reparations advocates think in terms of that money coming out of the pockets of their neighbors, relatives and co-workers, which it must. When viewed that way, the whole reparations scheme starts to fall apart, just on the grounds of fairness and common sense.
Dear Idiongo Udoh, Since you took Bennett’s comments completely out of context, in effect turning them on their head, does that failure demonstrate the reliability of your opinions?
Glamchild,
Corn: You may be right - I was regurgitating a remembered elementary school lesson from more than a half-century ago. As Will Rogers* said, “T’aint the things I can’t recall that bothers me… it’s what I clearly remember that just a’int so.” I should probably just stand corrected, therefore, I do.
Treaty: I didn’t say I agree with it, I wasn’t around (no matter what my kids say). But something worse than a bad treaty is a government that doesn’t stand by its solemn pledge(s).
Reparations = separate states: Apples and oranges. Hawaii is a US state; its citizens, like blacks and whites and every American in a US state, of whatever ethnic or racial status, EXCEPT those exempted by treaty, are bound to and by the one same sovereignty (Puerto Rico isn’t a state).
I think American Indians would be much better off if THEY ripped up the treaties and demanded a Constitutional right to equal treatment. But that’s not my call … even though my ggg-grandmother was an Indian (something I learned digging into genealogy. I was never part of the culture).
Welfare, no argument from me, and I don’t even care about the cost in taxes. It’s a travesty that has created and perpetuated misery, racial antagonism, and class warfare, and has relegated multiple generations to permanent underclass.
“Free land” is another matter, and it wasn’t “free.” Those pesky treaties again. Casinos? IF there is a direct taxpayer subsidy, I don’t see how that could be legal; but casino profits belong to casino operators. You can’t start taxing Indian land because they figured out how to make a profit with it.
Merry
* My father always quoted Will Rogers; I never heard Rogers himself say it.
Merry: If you’re part Indian, why don’t you make a claim and cash in ????? Just kidding. I think.
Why shouldn’t Indian Casinos pay real estate taxes? All other casinos do.
The Native American Act provides subsidies, still, even to casino tribes that aren’t impoverished any longer.
RedBeard;
One day, my baby brother called and blurted out that he and his wife were ‘milking the government’ for illegal welfare…cuz the government is one big monolithic cash cow…Earlier that day, I had watched my eight month pregnant daughter struggle to work a twelve hour day at Dell as a computer analyst, while suffering from a strep infection, and an auto immune disorder….In a measured tone, I told my brother that I would like to ‘introduce’ him to the government, and then I gave him details about the lives of his nieces, all of whom work seven days a week….
Because government has assumed such behemouth proportions, we are suffering from a fundamental disconnect between those who pay for it and those who benefit from it. Our net beneficiary group grows ever larger, as government expands (the number of government employees is expanding exponentially), while our donor group diminishes…a recipe for disaster…
What to do?
If blacks want to hold themselves seperate, then let them have that seperation. We acknowledged their equality, they wanted revenge. I want anyone, of any color or ethnicity who does not want to fully share in the fruits and the burdons of our civilization to be given back his or her birthright and to be relocated to a coultry that will accept them, with the sole and only requirement they renounce U.S. citizenship and never return. The rest, shut up and deal.
Glamchild,
Great discourse, and I’d really like to pursue it, but do not want to abuse and misuse LaShawn’s space and hospitality.
If you feel like it, go to my blog-under-construction, the contact link, and e-mail me.
Merry
Ooops.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mjwhitney1/index.html
Merry
I am looking forward to compounding the rent for 300 hundred years on the land forcibly occupied and taken from my Indian ancestors. All non Indians will of course, have to pay.
A back door reparations-like scheme is already active in Chicago. This kind of PC nonsense is one example of why I refuse to bid on any contracts with large city governments. It’s not worth the grief.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-slave02.html
RedBeard;
check out http://www.nlpc.org…It addresses this issue of corporations such as Wachovia, Bank of America, and others, having to research their background in order to do business. Peter Flaherty and John Carlisle, of NLPC, wrote an excellent report on ‘The Case Against Slave Reparations’. Even if one was in favor of affirmative action, this report (36 pages..just google the title and the author’s names) is a gold mine of information.
My family came to this county seeking freedom. My ancestors fought for freedom in the French and Indian war. They fought for freedom in the Revolutionary war. And when freedom was not being afforded to black men in America, they fought on their behalf in the civil war.
See below:
(Letter to Mrs. Lydia Parker Bixby)
Executive Mansion,
Washington, Nov. 21, 1864.
Dear Madam,–
I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle.
I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save.
I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.
Yours, very sincerely and respectfully,
A. Lincoln
REPARATIONS?
Mark us PAID IN FULL!
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