I understand guilt over the sins of one’s fathers, or of one’s younger self. But the answer is more charity than the passage of laws enforcing differential treatment throughout the land.

Being civil hasn’t been my issue. I hope my own civility while visting your blog bears that out.

“Evidence” is relative. I’ve found a couple of positions that have been held in two of the topics I’ve participated to be “evidenced” with some truth (not all, but just enough to support a given viewpoint), personal experience, some specualtion, and a little assumption. Sources that are cited (that oppose a given view) are challenged and denounced – a seemingly never ending activity that spirals most discussions into oblivion. That just may be the definition if “spin”.

Sometimes I wish life really were a little simpler. “either it’s true or it isn’t” would be far more meaningful and absolute. There would be no need for topics of discussion or debate if it was that easy – or they would be resolved satisfactorily by all when discussed.

Truth is relative. As are my little vists.

Truth is absolute and can be determined, despite what moral relativists claim. The point of “debating” is to get to the truth. No one said it was “that easy,” and I certainly didn’t imply it, either. – Admin

Comment by Heliotrope — 10.21.05 @ 2:52 pm

Lawd. All that analysis to explain Black people’s insistence on dependency and 2nd class citizenship. And it’s all conveniently the “liberal’s” fault.

All “we” have to do is get over our feelings of entitlement and inadequacy, and “we” will be just fine. These feelings of psycho – devaluation are generational and are passed down from father to son, perpetuating the problem.

And all that analysis is topped off with this:

A growing black middle class suggests there is nothing inherent in our black American countrymen that precludes their investment in the American experience.

I submit to you that there is no growing Black middle class. The current economic problems in this country are destoying the middle class – regardless of color.

Shrinkwrap’s article ends with this:

Ultimately, however, the black population of our country will never be able to succeed until they realize that they are unconsciously buying into an unstated meme saying that they are unable to compete; as long as they believe they cannot compete, they will never be able to compete.

All this confirms and reassures to everyone that Affirmative Action is evil. The proverbial “White Man” is blameless of course.

The whole thing is just too convenient. It suggests / implies / gives the impression that racism in this country is either gone, self inflicted, or otherwise inconsequential. “We” are our own worst enemy.

Wow.

At this point, any attempt I (or anyone else) makes to disagree with Shrinkwrap’s assessment further examplifies his assessment. “See, that’s what I mean – that poor Negro is screaming victimization and whining again.”

All I can say is that there are a number of psychologists / psychiatrists with their own data and alaysis that refutes much of Shrinkwrap’s findings. I guess it boiles down to what you want to believe and sticking with those that beleieve it with you – on either side of the fence.

One lesson I’ve learned from my little visit to La Shawn’s blog – the depth of our divition is far deeper than I imagined initially.

Well, Steve, both sides are here to present evidence for their position. The one thing I like to see on LBC is people discussing issues and citing sources. Yes, people are pretty much set in their positions, but does the evidence bear it out? This doesn’t have to be a “he said, she said” scenario. Either something is true or it isn’t. I hope during your “little visit” you’ve learned that people can disagree and hold views different from yours, and be civil with each other. – Admin

To Steve: I’m a 40 year old white man from Dallas, TX who grew up in a middle class family. I have chosen to live in lower class neighborhoods for maybe 6 years of my life and have been in the developing world the past 10. I say that to give some background.

As a social worker for the elderly, I observed the following characteristics in most of the majority black neighborhoods I worked in. A huge majority of the elderly were delightful, well read, dignified, clung to high moral values and had good marriages. I noticed that their children in their 40s and 50s tended to be hard working but many of the families were not together any more and they tended to be less committed to their churches but still active. Then their children the teens and 20 year olds were involved in almost all of the problems we read about all of the time.

I frequently asked my elderly friends what they thought happened and most of them pointed to the fall in the Christian commitment in their communities.

I bring this up because observation seems to go against the argument that more “material” help and more opportunities are what is needed. Those who faced the worst oppression and had the least opportunities turned out to be valuable contributors to society. Those with the most opportunities or the least amount of “racial” barriers were destroying what once was there.

My opinion is it is all in the mindset of people. If you think you “deserve” something you tend to not work as hard for it. I do development work in Afghanistan and I find this place plagued with “dependency” people demanding our organizations help when they aren’t doing anything themselves. I only work in communities I see already trying to do something for themselves but don’t have the resources. Our work in those places can have a large impact. Where people aren’t trying to help themselves our work only makes things worse, because we confirm that they don’t really need to do it themselves. In villages that “demand” I do “this or that”, I try to help them understand that they themselves have to be the main problem solvers. If the situation really needs changing what are they willing to do? These are development principles that apply universally.

In my opinion much of America is in need of a serious paradigm shift. Why do my friends’ kids succeed in school? Their parents start reading to them when they are infants. The schools are good because the community demands it and kids come already taught to value education. These traits have nothing to do with race, some correlation with “class” because of time but everything to do with values. The term “family values” is politically almost a joke, but in my mind the family is where the “inequality of opportunity” takes place.

Do you want to know how to raise a terrorist? Let your child hear you describing the death of Jews and Americans as glorious. Do you want to know how to raise a racist? Then sit around with your friends and downgrade other races or religions. Do you want to know how to increase teen pregnancies? Let your children watch so much TV that they think everyone should have sex before they are 14 and virgins are despicable. Do you want your child to be successful in the life? Teach them hard work, education and integrity through your own life and your words.

This isn’t fool proof. Some people with great parents disgrace themselves, while some from horrible homes become great. But I believe the principle is absolutely true.

So my comment on this whole debate is that we are discussing the wrong subject. I would phrase the conversation for discussion to be: “What values are necessary for a successful life/society and how can we help create these environments in poor/underprivileged areas?”

Steve I guess I’m asking how you would view the above statements and comments.

… when it ain’t needed, and possibly ain’t legal, or constituional. A long time ago segregation was the law of the land… Things changed, though…Black American taxpayers decided, en masse, they’d no longer put up with degrading laws that regul…

I do not believe in the “two Americas” at all. Anyone who applies his talent, keeps a positive attitude and enjoys a strong work ethic can move ahead in the America of today. (And please don’t capitalize “whites.” It is almost a Freudean slip to do so.)

It figures that you do not believe in a two Americas. And that’s fine – your individual and/or personal experiences do not support such a thing, nor does (I presume) your study of histrory support such an ideal. This isn’t unexpected.

Applying talent, keeping a positive attitude and strong work ethic are all admirable qualities. The difference between you and me is that you believe poeple will excel if these qualities are adhered to, I am hopeful people will ecell by adhering to these qualities in spite of America’s shortcommings.

Our experiences, observations, and understanding of history differ. It stands to reason our belief (or lack there of) in a two America will differ as well. I (very likely) can’t change your mind regarding the concept, any more than you can convince me that Blacks and White operate on an even playing field, regardless of talent or motivation. History is filled with Black achievers who have succeeded in spite of America, not because of it.

By the way, there is no hidden meaning or agenda regarding my use of “whites” or “Whites”. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Deng Zao Peng looked at China in early 1980’s and decided to release private ownership into the society. He explained it thus: “I don’t care if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice.”

I don’t care who does my heart surgery, so long as he/she is among the best. I want a quality brake job on my car. I don’t care who does it or who runs or owns the place.

Good for you. Too bad the rest of the world, or the majority of those in power – any kind of power – within these United States doesn’t feel the same. Individual belief in equality or examples of individual successes do not reflect the larger social realities of the majority. To equate the two is tantamount to operating with blinders.

So far as the “old boy” network among the very rich is concerned, it has always been around and always will be. If you can’t lick it, then join it.

Join it? Ha! You (or rather, I) don’t “join” the old boy’s network. I don’t qualify – I gotta be an “old boy” first!

Washington, DC has had an elite black society for 150 years with its own black old boy network. It is the natural outcome of wealth and success.

Social societies and organizations with real power aren’t necessirly the same thing. A bunch of rich Black folks is only as powerful as who they must answer to or report to to secure that wealth. Real “old-boys” either answer to no one, or answer to other old boy’s (which is the same thing really). That’s the definition of their power. You are comparing apples and oranges.

You may recall that when Clinton wanted to get Monica out of his life he called Vernon Jordon who arranged for the President of Revlon to get her an interview.

Jordan’s power, however hard he worked to get his position and as deserving as he may have been, is dependent upon the his place within the given organization. He is a soldier within that given power structure, nothing more. His perceived power is contingent upon the the beliefs and agendas of who he reports to.

Nothing is ever going to change that type of influence.

Let Jordan say or do anything which conflicts with the ideals of who provided that perceoved power he enjoys, or who he reports to, and we will see just how truly powerful he – and others like him – really are. The “power” you reference in this instance is a myth – it’s not real power, just a high paying job.

But few of us are affected by it until we are trying to get the job the boss’s son is after.

I’m not quite sure what this partcular statement means, but I will submit that the “boss’s son” extends far beyond blood and direct family ties.

You seem to have such a positive attitude, it seems a shame to get hung up on the negative. Life is a series of construction jobs as we all build personal by-passes around road blocks.

The “negative” as you refer to it isn’t something as simple as a depressing attitude or an imaginary perception of reality. It’s the system under which I (and you) operate. You don’t agree of course, becuase your experiences and mine differ. And that’s fine. I’m quite sure nothing I could say will refute your suppositions. I’m probably relegated to some “whiney liberal negro” status in the minds of many of the readers of this blog, who choose to actually read my long-winded posts.

And that’s cool too. This is an interesting excercise for me.

Ciao

These issues have been rehashed ad nauseum on this blog. This post is a good place to start: http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2005/07/06/thoughts/. Check the comments, too.

- Admin

In the late 1970’s, I spent some time working in the VA Hospital system. At that time, the primary Psychiatric population we treated were those whose psychiatric problems fell under the category of service-connected disability. Patients with SC disabi…

I do not believe in the “two Americas” at all. Anyone who applies his talent, keeps a positive attitude and enjoys a strong work ethic can move ahead in the America of today. (And please don’t capitalize “whites.” It is almost a Freudean slip to do so.)

Deng Zao Peng looked at China in early 1980’s and decided to release private ownership into the society. He explained it thus: “I don’t care if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice.”

I don’t care who does my heart surgery, so long as he/she is among the best. I want a quality brake job on my car. I don’t care who does it or who runs or owns the place.

So far as the “old boy” network among the very rich is concerned, it has always been around and always will be. If you can’t lick it, then join it. Washington, DC has had an elite black society for 150 years with its own black old boy network. It is the natural outcome of wealth and success. You may recall that when Clinton wanted to get Monica out of his life he called Vernon Jordon who arranged for the President of Revlon to get her an interview. Nothing is ever going to change that type of influence. But few of us are affected by it until we are trying to get the job the boss’s son is after.

You seem to have such a positive attitude, it seems a shame to get hung up on the negative. Life is a series of construction jobs as we all build personal by-passes around road blocks.

The affirmative action that you assert has caused you to be discriminated against pales in comparison to the institutional, economic, social, legal, and overall systemic white affirmative action that serves as the basis for how this country was founded and currently operates. You do not have to be a slave owner (now or in the past) to enjoy these priviledges any more than I – as Black man – must be a slave to suffer from society’s inequities. Please note: this isn’t about playing some stupid race card or screaming “victimhood” here. This is American history – past and present (recent). Describing the current state of societal affairs isn’t the same as making excuses for failure. I’m not going there.

The issue is far deeper than whether or not Affirmative Action stays or goes. Either way, you as a white male, are all set. Who cares about AA? Your a white male, and this is YOUR world. Enjoy it!

To refute my statements (as I expect they will be) means to deny the existence of white priveledge.

If you think Affirmative Action is so effective that is has the ability to displace or otherwise influence economic and other resources from white america, then you over estimate it’s power. This is on a broader scale.

On a more personal, individual scale: If you are not receiving your fair share, you either really are but don’t recognize it, or you haven’t gotten up out of your chair and gone to take full advantage. Pull yourself up from your bootstraps young man! Don’t let something as silly as Affirmative Action determine your furture. This is America! Be all you can be. This is your world (for now). Enjoy it. Don’t let something as silly as Affirmative Action for little ole’ minorities keep you from getting what’s yours – rightfully so or otherwise.

Affirmative action effictively discriminates against me, a white middle class male, with NO ties to slavery (my family MAY have owned them 150 years ago, I assure I did not…)…does two wrongs make a right, especially since the ones you would like to punish are DEAD by over a century (most likely).

Affirmative action needs to go.

Dan

Heliotrope: Understood. In this particular case, the numbers were secondary. No one can (or should) question the prevalence of lynchings in America.

All wishful thinking and manufactured positive outcome aside, how can we be a nation of equality and a nation of laws while we permit Affirmative Action?

Heliotrope: You question the relevance of lynchings and how they relate to Affirmative Action. Lynchings serve as an example of the mindset, intention, and social / political reality that this country was founded on. Lynchings may have gone away, but the intentions behind the actions have not. My question to you: How can we be a nation of equality and a nation of laws when there are, in fact, two Americas?

One of wealth and privilege for Whites, and something quite different and lacking for so called “minorities”? Affirmative action’s existence or legitimacy is only one small part of the problem.

“No man can point to any law in the US by which slavery was originally established. Men first make slaves and then make laws.” – Frederick Douglass

However, it definitely does not disenfranchise Whites.

And remember, this is only one of the entitlement systems.

There is also the “wealthy White” entitlement program, another “rigged system”. Bush is one of the recipients of this one!