Larry Elder asks, “When can we blacks get to the point where you and I can have a disagreement — about racism, affirmative action, the War in Iraq, whatever — without someone who thinks like me being a sell-out or an Uncle Tom? Is that at all possible? Am I asking too much?” (Source)
Answer to question #1: When it is no longer profitable or otherwise advantageous for blacks to participate in grievance-shopping politics. For example, racial discrimination was once harmful to blacks; now it’s beneficial. When the tide turns, blacks who oppose skin color preferences will no longer be considered “sell-outs.”
Answer to question #2: The question is not whether you’re asking too much, Mr. Elder. Why ask the question at all? It’s pointless. For some people, whining, excuse-making, and finger-pointing are sub-culturally ingrained. The current is too strong. I don’t know about you, but I have neither the time, inclination, nor energy to turn the tide. Just continue to make your stand, and the enlightened will come to you.
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I enjoy listening to Larry Elder on my way home from work. One notable thing about his show is the degree of irrational anger directed at him by a few callers. It’s disappointing to hear the rancor in those voices, particularly because they are usually missing Mr. Elder’s point by a country mile.
As I judge Larry Elder, he’s a conservative with libertarian leanings. Therefore groups like the CBC, the ACLU, the NAACP, most Democrats, all leftists and any individuals who refuse self-sufficiency and relish government largesse are targets for him, based upon philosophy, not race.
Three time three cheers for LaShawn: each of the two answers scores a “10.”
One of the customers said to Elder, “White people have more money and more property than we do.”
What a simple-minded, generalized statement! There are many white people who are broke or don’t have much, and besides, life isn’t fair! People like that customer and other critics of Elder, etc. need to grow up!
And people shouldn’t blame society if they make wrong choices, such as squandering opportunities and relationships, and then sit around blaming the “system” for everything, even while they’re doing nothing productive. There are plenty of situations that aren’t fair, for whomever.
It’s that kind of attitude that does not ingratiate other “groups” towards black people, especially when people are working hard and teaching their kids to have a good work ethic instead of whining all the time.
Tough questions by Larry, and excellent answers by LeShawn. How I wish we could discuss these issues more often, without fear that we will be called racists, or worse.
Just look at what happened to Bill Cosby, whom I admire for his courage in exposing what is wrong with the black culture and what we need to do reverse its course. Would it not be much better listening to what he tells us instead of being treated to the endless rantings of despicable “leaders” like Julian Bond, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton?
Even Bob Herbert, that liberal columnist for the NY Times, wrote a thoughtful column yesterday laying out the failings of current black culture, and calling for a national conference of black leaders to assess the problems and look for solutions.
Something like that is needed before it becomes too late to bridge the racial divide we have in this country.
It always puzzled me that the NAACP and the KKK have a common view of Blacks – people whose past made integration into white society impossible.
In a barber shop, when people were praising Bill Clinton, I spoke and listed the problems I have with the man.
At the end, I said, “Clinton ain’t nuthin’ but a cracka in a suit!”.
Guess what happened?
Some said they saw my point, some said nothing, some said he was still better than Republicans.
Larry Elder is playing the victim card to keep his credentials in order. So, that goes towards LaShawn’s #1.
Glenn Loury, “Cast Out By the Right”
http://www.bu.edu/irsd/articles/castout.htm
“Glenn Loury’s Round Trip”
web.mit.edu/krugman/www/loury.html
“Glenn Loury’s About Face”
phuakl.tripod.com/eTHOUGHT/Loury.html
He was horrified by Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein’s 1994 book, ”The Bell Curve,” a social Darwinist tract arguing that black poverty was rooted in inferior intelligence. He was even more appalled by ”The End of Racism,” the lurid assault on ”black failure” written by Dinesh D’Souza when he was a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.
Not only did his conservative friends not share his rage; they were taken aback by it and tried, he says, to muzzle him. Commentary, which had welcomed Loury’s writing in the past, refused to publish his critique of ”The Bell Curve.” And though The Weekly Standard ran Loury’s caustic review of D’Souza’s book, it also published a lengthy response from the author. In 1995, Loury resigned from the American Enterprise Institute over its support of D’Souza.
In a column called ”What’s Wrong With the Right,” published in the January-February 1996 issue of The American Enterprise journal, Loury wrote that while ”liberal methods” on questions of race were certainly flawed, ”liberals sought to heal the rift in our body politic engendered by the institution of chattel slavery, and their goal of securing racial justice in America was, and is, a noble one. I cannot say with confidence that conservatism as a movement is much concerned to pursue that goal.”
…
A few days later, Steele phoned him. ”Where do you stand on race?” Loury says Steele asked him. ”It’s as if you’re a racial loyalist here. I thought we all agreed.”
”No, Shelby and I didn’t agree,” Loury says now. ”I was always aware that, whatever I thought about race, I’m still black. Shelby’s position. . . . ” Loury starts to laugh. ”I was about to say, Shelby’s position was that we had to completely transcend race, though I can imagine saying those words, too. But my heart wasn’t in them, whereas he really meant it. How could it have been otherwise? His mother was a white woman. His wife is a white woman. When he looked at his own children’s racial identity and wondered about an oppressive world that would say to those children, ‘Choose sides’ — a dilemma I’d never faced — Shelby’s angle of vision was really quite different from my own. So in all honesty, it was I who betrayed him, not he who betrayed me.” The two men have not spoken since that conversation. (Steele declined to be interviewed for this article.)
Indeed, you are right on with your answers La Shawn.
But I empathise with Elder’s Rodney King-style plea for intra-racial tolerance. Moreover, I think some of us must ask these pedestrian questions to initiate the transformation of consciousness many blacks must undergo before they reach the enlightened state of mind you envisage.
Larry Elder’s questions are important and profound. His questions, however, should not be limited to discussions of race. For example, supporters of the Iraq war typically refer to opponents of the war as unpatriotic. The terms unpatriotic and racist, as well as others, are designed to stifle debate.
It’s unfortunate that the art of debate has been lost to name-calling and unproductive rhetoric. Intelligent people should be able to exchange ideas on important matters. But all too often the exchange of ideas are muted because of name-calling. I surmise that the tactic of name-calling and spewing rhetoric is designed to mask the speaker’s lack of considered, independent thought.
So to answer Mr. Elder’s first question, things will change when informed debate returns.
Ohhh, girl…I knew I liked you the first time I read your Blog….Amen, amen and a hallelujah and amen. You are right on the money! Now if more of our culture would see the light, it would be a lot brighter around here.
My grandmother used to say, “We eat our own young!” I never understood until I grew up and saw what we perpetuated on our youth!
Keep up the good work! You’re a Gem!
It’s interesting, from Elder’s account, only one person disagreed, the rest laughed.
Uhhhh….
That kinda sorta goes against the speil that Elder is selling.
DarkStar, if you’re trying to say people shouldn’t be swayed by Elder’s opinion because of this one anecdote, you really ought to make a mental note to check yourself. You do the same thing on this blog. Elder’s using one instance to make a point; I’m sure he has thousands of such stories and conversations. The laughers probably disagreed with him, too.
DarkStar, if you’re trying to say people shouldn’t be swayed by Elder’s opinion because of this one anecdote, you really ought to make a mental note to check yourself. You do the same thing on this blog. Elder’s using one instance to make a point; I’m sure he has thousands of such stories and conversations. The laughers probably disagreed with him, too.
1. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be swayed by his opinion. I am saying that there is a contradiction there for those tuned enough to see it.
2. I’ve pointed out, myself, that I times I use ancedotes to point out “all may not be as it seems”. However, in most “public discourse”, ancedotes reign supreme. I’ve also pointed out to some of those who have a problem with what I’ve done, that Larry Elder uses the same tactic. I tend to write that to those who have praised Elder but have criticized some of my style.
3. Isn’t it interesting that John McWhorter has gained prominence by using what he himself states is ancedotes, to help build the “Black anti-intellectual idea” yet, the scholarly studies that contradict and/or refute such claims gets no notice?
A few weeks ago, you posted about one such study. The interesting thing about it is, it stated that the “acting white” charge plays no role in segregated public schools but may play a role in integrated public schools and plays no role in private schools. The author of that piece also mentioned that his review of countrywide obtained data refutes McWhorter’s claim.
Look, I’m 40-something
years of age. I’ve been tuned to media distortions of events since Jr. High school because of media coverage of an event of which I had first hand knowledge. It was re-enforced in high school with media MISrepresentations of something I witnessed first hand.
Years ago I was on a Project21 email list where the Project 21 members had a FIERCE debate over Republican attitudes towards Black voters and the role, if any, that Black Republicans and Black conservatives played in the negative feelings towards Republicans and conservatives.
C.D. Ellision was on that list and was a member of Project 21. Read this piece:
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/11/13newsb.html
Now, for the record:
1. He’s Black.
2. He’s a Republican.
3. He’s a strong conservative.
Note who he worked for at the time.
And I realize you don’t believe in the idea of outreach, but I did this to buttress one of my long standing points: “rejection” of conservatives in general, and Black conservatives in particular, is based on the “attitude” of conservatives towards Blacks.
Look at what happened to Glenn Loury when he “stepped out of the conservative line”. Look what happened to you when some of your commentors thought YOU “stepped out of conservative line”.
Elder is making money being a “counter” race-hustler, which in itself, is race-hustling, in my opinion.
D.S., how is being opposed to something the same as doing that thing? If Mr. Elder is opposed to race hustling, how does that make him a race hustler? That’s like saying that if I’m opposed to abortion then I support abortion. I’m having trouble with that, for some odd reason. LOL
Here we go again.
Larry Elder is being trashed by Leftists because he IS telling the truth. Truth hurts more than lies.
And PLEASE. I am SICK and TIRED by Black people playing the “victimhood” game – claiming “Whites have more money” etc..
Black people don’t have an exclusive on low achievement. Here in North Louisiana at a hospital, we have plenty of “Rednecks” – White people who live dangerously, are “poor” because of their own bad habits, and who get injured by being ejected from autos while they are drunk.
And Johnny Cash and a whole bunch of White people my age (62) have hand-picked cotton.
And what makes Black Leftists think they have an exclusive on trashing Black conservatives? White conservatives don’t get treated nearly so badly by White Leftists.
D.S., how is being opposed to something the same as doing that thing? If Mr. Elder is opposed to race hustling, how does that make him a race hustler?
Larry Elder is not presenting the entire story, something that he likes to point out about Black liberals. [Deleted - Libel people on your own site, DS. - Admin]
By his writings, he gives the impression that most Blacks believe racism is the major problem in the Black community, yet there is no study to back this up. While there are studies saying that racism is a problem, there are none saying it is the major problem. In fact, I’ve read one that places education, crime, employment and finances as being problems most Blacks are worried about.
When Elder was writing about “hate crimes”, he was using information from Jared Taylor. He failed to mention that Taylor is a white supremist who believes in Blacks being biologically inferior to whites and genetically proned to violence. Elder also failed to note that Taylor’s crunching of the numbers started out by stating the number of hate crimes across all boundaries and then went to hate crimes of Blacks against whites and the reverse, but then concluded by using a statistical slight of hand by stating that all crimes that Blacks commit against whites are hate crimes.
In the first chapter of Elder’s book, “Ten Things You Can’t Say”, uses a rhetorical device that, essentially, causes the reader to judge all Blacks by the criminality of the minority of Blacks. On a local talk show, the host had Elder on his program. The host, who was giving a glowing review of the book, had to agree with my point when I called in and brought it up. Elder was livid at “the caller’s interpretation” but the conservative host stated that he read it the same way.
Of all of the articles that I’ve read written by Elder, close to none have gone into any detail about Blacks who are achieving or Black individuals or groups that are doing positive things in the Black community. If you read his commentary, what you get from his writings is that most Blacks complain about racism and are not doing anything else.
And here’s the kicker. Elder was defended against local groups who wanted him off of the air. Elder stood by and said nothing when Mfume had a chance at a national show. Mfume’s show was cut off at the knees, but Elder was given a talk show. It failed after one year and now he has “Moral Court”.
But before the chance for a national show, Mfume had a local Baltimore show, where he brought up problems and solutions to those problems. These solutions WERE NOT government based. GASP!
And has Elder EVER written about the Black Dems who call other Black Dems sellout? No, of course not, because that wouldn’t fit into his victimology role.
“Black liberals” have called Mfume and the NAACP sellouts and/or “bouggie Negroes”.
How about the name calling against Black Dem. Corey Booker in New Jersey when he ran against Black Dem. Sharp James? Did Elder write about that?
No?
Goodness, Booker was called a sellout and said to not “be Black” but did Elder mention that?
No?
Why not?
Could it be that he just wants “Black conservatives” to wear the victim crown?
Corey Booker, Kweisi Mfume…what? Again, you rattle off a jumble of disjointed facts to make a confusing point. I don’t know anything about Elder quoting crime stats, etc., because I rarely listen to his show, but I have a feeling your side of the story is probably missing some facts, too. We’re all biased, DS, including you. And Elder doesn’t have to write or talk about blacks Dems calling other black Dems sell-outs to be credible. I get it, OK? You don’t like Elder. But leave the defamation at Vision Circle. – Admin
New to this blog, but after reading some of your posts, want to congratulate you for being thoughtful and opinionated without being over-zealous and ignorant of your subject matter like so many prominent figures are today. I’ll keep reading!
Corey Booker, Kweisi Mfume…what? Again, you rattle off a jumble of disjointed facts to make a confusing point.
If Elder is going to point out name calling of Black liberals against Black conservatives, he should note, for clarity, name calling of Black liberals against Black liberals. Yet he doesn’t. He makes it appear as if it’s only the Black liberals against the Black conservatives. The instances of name calling I gave made national news.
because I rarely listen to his show,
That came from his writings not his talk show.
And Elder doesn’t have to write or talk about blacks Dems calling other black Dems sell-outs to be credible.
Here is my point. If he’s only showing that side, then it’s not an accurate picture of what is going on in the Black community. That’s a point that he, and other public Black conservatives, make about Black liberals and the liberal media. They don’t present an accurate picture of what is going on in the Black community.
So, why not judge him by the standards that he is judging others?
Thanks for the nitpick about the radio show/writings, DS.
The day black liberals, including yourself, paint an accurate picture about what’s going on in the “Black community” is the day I’ll shut down this blog. People like you put people like Elder and me on a higher standard. Our accounts of what’s going on in the “Black community” are inaccurate, while black Dems and other libs have got their collective finger on the pulse of the community with their grievance-hopping, right?
Thanks for reading and commenting at LBC, DS. My ignorance is equal only to your “wisdom.”
Ad hominem attacks are practically an admission of defeat. Respectable arguments address the issues at hand rather than libeling the source of the opposed ideas. Larry Elder is not always right, but this Uncle Tom stuff is garbage purveyed by losers.
Where is this segregated “Black Community” I’m always hearing about? I’ve checked with the AAA map people, and all they can find in the way of communities around here are places like Tampa, Lakeland, St. Petersburg, Clearwater, not one of which is restricted to a single race.
Where are they hiding this place, and why don’t they want me there?
Thanks for the nitpick about the radio show/writings, DS.
*Sigh*
That wasn’t a nit pick. I don’t listen to his show, so I didn’t want to claim something I don’t know about.
The day black liberals, including yourself, paint an accurate picture about what’s going on in the “Black community†is the day I’ll shut down this blog.
Well, one, I’ve said that liberals don’t paint the accurate picture of the Black community.
No need to shut things down, but since you put me out there, how about a “series” I did?
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003249.html
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003250.html
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003251.html
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003256.html
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003260.html
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003267.html
If anyone takes the time, they will get a snapshot of the life of DS and of the Black community. You will see positive and negatives, and that’s all I ask for when the Black community is being portrayed. The shine and the stain.
People like you put people like Elder and me on a higher standard.
Actually, I don’t do that at all.
Here’s a letter to the NAACP:
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003095.html
Here’s a leter to Project 21:
http://www.visioncircle.org/archive/003094.html
Our accounts of what’s going on in the “Black community†are inaccurate,
Sometimes inaccurate, sometimes incomplete, sometimes accurate.
while black Dems and other libs have got their collective finger on the pulse of the community with their grievance-hopping, right?
No, not right at all. And, I’ve written that many times on your very blog.
I think that if you are having intelligent discourse there is always room for divergent thinking. When you get a bunch of ig’nant people in a room that have an agenda, that is another story. There are people on both sides of the aisle that have grimy agendas, which is why I hope that my generation will stand up and say we can respect the older people, but we do not have to have an allegiance to groups like the NAACP which continue to promote a stagnant point of view that rejects any opinions about not sucking up to politicians for crumbs. I don’t always agree with Larry Elder, mainly because he comes off like my crochety old grandpop, but the dude is on point here, that’s for sure.
La Shawn, “When it is no longer profitable or otherwise advantageous for blacks to participate in grievance-shopping politics.” is an excellent answer. Profitable is a key word-it’s as shameful for a “Black Leader” to become rich by keeping the fires of hate and intolerance burning as it is for a prostitute to make money by keeping the fire of lust burning. Both appeal to our human weaknesses.
This is going back a few decades, but do you remember Richard Pryor’s caustically defined “Black community Leader” in the movie “Car Wash”? If I remember right, he was driven around sitting on a throne. Might have even been a “Reverend”.
but we do not have to have an allegiance to groups like the NAACP
Most Blacks don’t have an allegiance to the NAACP.
The NAACP membership has been stagnent and will shrink as the older members pass on. This is why the NAACP keeps making it a priority to get younger members, but it isn’t working. This is well known within the NAACP and outside of the NAACP. Black media pundits, those normally referred to as liberal, when writing about the problems of the NAACP, normally bring up this point. They also, normally, bring up that most Blacks think the NAACP is irrelevant. However, NAACP critics fail to mention these things, even though it is easy to find out about.
The question, then, is why?
Here’s an example of someone I like. Colbert I. King.
He shows positives and negatives. He gives a good view into D.C. life.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/03/24/LI2005032401680.html
You sound like a disgruntled teenaged boy instead of the grown man I’m almost certain you are. Your rhetoric is tired and boring, and it won’t be appearing on this blog anymore. – Admin
It’s interesting to see how differently things are viewed, depending upon the viewer.
Shade, I don’t see the slightest bit of lapdog in Larry Elder. He’s more of a Rottweiler.
As a matter of fact, he seems to be the sort of self-confident independent thinker who would bite the head off any man, black or white, who would presume to treat him like a lapdog.
I have no idea how his audience breaks down over racial lines, nor is that any more important to me than any other sort of racial pigeonholing, all of which is negative. But I do know, from listening, that a great many blacks call the show, some to agree and some to disagree.
The thing I take away from Larry Elder’s show is that he bases his talking points upon conservative principle. His criticism of people is based upon behavior, not race. There really is a huge difference there. Have you heard him lay into people like Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy and Barbara Boxer? Blood on the floor. He’s quite merciless toward all liberals.
Bottom line; white liberals are offended by Larry Elder as much as black liberals are. And if liberals in general are offended, then he’s doing something right.
You are welcome at my end of the swamp. Happy New Year.
Peace and all good,
Kermit
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