(right-leaning moderates + right-wingers)/2 = center-righters

As it was, it yeilds: time-challenged careless poster.

(Right-leaning moderates + Right-wingers)/2 = Right-leaning moderates.

Your equation yeilds: humor-challenged serious-posters.

Are you actually saying the CIA went through the trouble of referring Plame’s outting to the Justice Department because she wasn’t a covert agent and they don’t believe this law should be on the books? That seriously doesn’t make any sense.

As for the WMD mess, I’m tired of rehashing it all. Simply put, if Bush lied, so did Clinton and every other nation and Hans Blix. The inspectors had been inspecting for a decade to no avail. More time wasn’t going to prove anything new.

Please come off it. By the time Bush invaded Iraq in 2003, any intel Clinton had on Iraq was five years old. I don’t want my president pointing to five year old intel as a reason for war. Do you?The entire world did NOT believe Iraq had WMD. Additionally, if Blix thought WMD were there, he was definitely one of the guys who wanted to finish the job of inspecting before Bush invaded and they smeared him too, just like they did to everyone else who disagreed with them.

The point is whether WMD were there or not, we could’ve let the inspectors do their job since they were on the ground. I’ll leave it there since you’re getting tired of it.

nyblues wrote”One question, why would so many of your fellow soldiers and their families even feel the need to buy armor if they had what they needed?”
I dunno. Perhaps for the same reason that when safe at home, many young turks tend to strut and talk the Rambo-nehead trash. They thot combat was like a video game where they’ll Duke-Nukem anything in their path. Then reality bites and they proceed to wet/soil their pants.
Anyhoo, most of those writing home and crying for more armor are typically rear echelon types. They typically are not the ones actually out on combat patrol. Everytime Jihadii lobs a mortar within a half-mile of their AO, they’re the 1st to dive into the bunker and hog the middle so that the others will create a human bufferzone of flesh and armor — what better to absorb the 1 in a million shot to hit the proverbial swish from a mile away.
Nevermind that the odds of getting shot in Motown or in our nation’s capital on any day is higher than a year in an Iraqi FOB

So your stance is they didn’t know what they were getting into. I’m not a soldier, but I’m sure a few of these guys in the articles I posted saw combat and were thankful for the armor they had to buy on their own. So what we have is soldiers who see things differently than you do on what they need in a war zone.

I should mention I visit DC frequently and have never had a problem. Sorry, I’m not buying that DC and Detroit are less safer than Iraq of all places.

Bottomline, when God says your time is up, what difference does it make if you got snipered, stung by a scorpion, bitten by an asp, succumbed to heat stroke(from wearing hot/heavy armor),IED’d, simple traffic accident or by a MS13 gang-banger or thug rapper’s stray shot? Are you ready for Judgement Day?

Thug rapper’s stray shot? Wow. As for Judgement Day, that’s between me and God. If you know you’re ready then I’m happy for you.

Let’ see. Right-leaning moderates + right-wingers = center-righters? – Admin

As for the WMD mess, I’m tired of rehashing it all. Simply put, if Bush lied, so did Clinton and every other nation and Hans Blix. The inspectors had been inspecting for a decade to no avail. More time wasn’t going to prove anything new.

nyblues wrote”One question, why would so many of your fellow soldiers and their families even feel the need to buy armor if they had what they needed?”

I dunno. Perhaps for the same reason that when safe at home, many young turks tend to strut and talk the Rambo-nehead trash. They thot combat was like a video game where they’ll Duke-Nukem anything in their path. Then reality bites and they proceed to wet/soil their pants.

Anyhoo, most of those writing home and crying for more armor are typically rear echelon types. They typically are not the ones actually out on combat patrol. Everytime Jihadii lobs a mortar within a half-mile of their AO, they’re the 1st to dive into the bunker and hog the middle so that the others will create a human bufferzone of flesh and armor — what better to absorb the 1 in a million shot to hit the proverbial swish from a mile away.

Nevermind that the odds of getting shot in Motown or in our nation’s capital on any day is higher than a year in an Iraqi FOB.

I guess the proof in the pudding would be to see how many have actually claimed for a refund for the personal armor. But even then, that wouldn’t be a true picture since I know of some who have taken the DOD up on the offer.

Why?? Not for lack of protection rather flexibility. Much like some guys carry several types of weapons when they can only use one at a time:
Riding in the hatch? Bulk up.
Riding in an armored truck? Lighten up.

Either way, they’re still with regs which call for wearing armor at all times outside the wire.

Bottomline, when God says your time is up, what difference does it make if you got snipered, stung by a scorpion, bitten by an asp, succumbed to heat stroke(from wearing hot/heavy armor),IED’d, simple traffic accident or by a MS13 gang-banger or thug rapper’s stray shot? Are you ready for Judgement Day?

Do you realize that there was actual disagreement among our own intelligence agencies as well as with our allies as to the existence of WMD prior to us attacking? Dissenting voices were ignored or smeared if they went public. We relied on unsavory individuals like Chalabi and that drunk “Curveball” and their information turned out to be dead wrong. Remember weapons inspector El Baradai, who we brushed off and he went on to receive the Nobel Peace Prize for his work in reducing WMD.

Nevertheless, the argument is not just whether or not WMD existed. The question is if they were there, why not let the inspectors complete their job since they were on the ground? This is what the original UN resolution called for. We were supposed to attack if Hussein did not comply, but we know now weapons inspectors were on the ground up to 2 days before we invaded.

Valerie Plame’s covert status is very much under dispute. There is absolutely no cover for her under the statute Fitzgerald was empowered to investigate. Fitzgerald himself said so in his fifteen minutes of fame chat with the universe.

Maybe her covert status is under dispute in your mind. However, the CIA considered her status covert which is why they referred her outing to the Justice Department in the first place. Fitzgerald was empowered to prosecute anyone who violated the espionage act in her outing and anyone who obstructed his investigation as to whether or not the act was violated. I already said earlier it’s possible if Libby had been more forthcoming, maybe Fitzgerald would not have pursued this further, but we know Libby perjured himself.

I will retire from this with the understanding that the first rule of rhetoric is the willingness to disagree. I disagree and nyblues’ evidence is water thin. By the time the old SEC chestnut gets dragged out concerning the Frist trust, it ipast time to go watch the weather channel.

Feel free to retire and declare my evidence to be “water thin”. It doesn’t make you right.

Get back to me if you can tell me why the CIA was wrong for considering Plame covert.

As for Frist, Cunningham, DeLay, and anyone actually linked to Abramoff we’ll have to see how that pans out. You can watch the weather channel, I’ll keep my eyes on C SPAN.

Now just think that through. If Plame’s main task at the CIA was to work on the proliferation of WMD, then she must have payed an important role in misleading Clinton and then Bush about Iraq. But more to the point, by the time nyblues is certain about what Valerie Plame did at the CIA, she was hardly useful or covert. Of course, it is possible nyblues is a CIA insider who is breaking a gazillion laws by posting here.

Valerie Plame’s covert status is very much under dispute. There is absolutely no cover for her under the statute Fitzgerald was empowered to investigate. Fitzgerald himself said so in his fifteen minutes of fame chat with the universe.

I will retire from this with the understanding that the first rule of rhetoric is the willingness to disagree. I disagree and nyblues’ evidence is water thin. By the time the old SEC chestnut gets dragged out concerning the Frist trust, it ipast time to go watch the weather channel.

Which report would that be? I seem to recall Pat Roberts, Chair of the Senate Select committee on intelligence making a promise to the country on Meet the Press to complete a report as to whether or not the intelligence was fixed to make the case for war. He refused to fulfill his commitment, which is what lead to Reid shutting down the Senate.

It’s very interesting that you would say Plame is blown out of proportion, since her main task at the CIA was to work on the proliferation of WMD. I don’t care what side of the political aisle you’re on, her status as a covert agent is not in dispute and it was not right to out her.

Now let’s get to the body armor issue. I understand that additional armor may decrease mobility and of course, I don’t expect the armor to protect from a shot in the face. That’s not the kind of injury I’m talking about. Your points as to the advantages and disadvantages of certain types of armor are duly noted. I thank you for your service and hope you come back home safely after your next tour.

One question, why would so many of your fellow soldiers and their families even feel the need to buy armor if they had what they needed?

If you think the Pentagon bureaucrats are to blame, then why on earth would you want to entrust anything of import to you and yours to ANY government agency and their attendent bureaucrats?

Questioning the practices of one department in government doesn’t mean I have issues with government agencies as a whole. Some work well, some don’t. I’d hope you could recognize that.

And what are Democrats and the MSM been doing during their years in the wilderness? They have donned tinfoil caps in order to better hear the voices of CIA spooks on their phone lines, pined for the return of Saddam’s thugocracy, published “inaccurate but true” memos, proclaimed Christophobia to be the One True religion, beatified Cindy Sheehan after consulting the wisdom of the dimpled chads, stormed Gitmo to save the waterlogged Korans, and launched the holy jihad against the racists and homophobes to be found hiding under every bed. Democrats give paranoia a bad name.

When will people learn? Power corrupts. Warning to Republicans: Democrats have proven that being thrown out of power does not necessarily lead to the return of moral sanity.

N. Z. Bear, The Truth Laid Bear, has put out the statement below with the undersigned bloggers. In light of my feelings about The Utter Degradation of DC Culture, I am proud to add my name to this statement and appreciate the opportunity NZ Bear has gi…

I sincerely wish you had more time to stay on line at LBC.

Is there any way I could help make that happen?

Stay safe, stay well and keep your uplifting optimism.

Vis a vis WMD & terror, I suppose the “bipartisan” congressional report was wholly managed & produced by Rove? Plame is so out of it and blown out of porportion and on it goes with the rest of your talking points.

I’m only going to focus one “scandal du jour” of which I’m intimately aquainted with. Something that I wear practically every day – body armor. In the words of one wit, about the only thing they’re good for is to prop your sitting body up when napping.

What you cited falls short on facts. In essence, the typical armor being bought by families were suitable for law enforcement, not war and the higher lethality of the weapons used.

Think of that CA bank robbery a few years ago, where the cops, in their armor, were mowed down by two robbers in battle gear. Eventually, even the robbers succumbed to the bullets, body armor not withstanding.

Would you rather have soldiers operate with a false sense of security or better yet knowing that they may be under-armored, proceed with caution?

Simply put, there is NO type of armor, perfect for any and every situation — regardless of what cHillary may say.

That’s not even taking One-Size-Fits-All into consideration. So-called adequate protection for a 240lb trooper built like a linebacker would immobilze the 98lb soaking wet female soldier.

The statement you quoted is incomplete, the Pentagon DID NOT report that 80% of combat deaths could have been avoided had our troops been armored properly. “Properly”? Define properly!!!

The study showed only that OF the soldiers who were hit by weapons fire and subsequently died while WEARING armor, a certain % were hit in areas not covered by the body armor, i.e. the gap between the chest plate & back plate.

Soldiers are also given Shoulder, Arm & Groin protectors, few elect to use them.

Whether you realize it or not, one can be killed by the armor plate itself. If a high-powered round doesn’t penetrate the ceramic plate, it can still kill by the kinetic energy expended against the plate.

Think of it this way — how would you feel if a 1sq ft plate, weighing about 10 lbs slammed you full on in the chest at 100 mph?

How about a 2 lb Groin Plate slamming back at your…?

Ditto for the Shoulder Plate. Would you rather chance a clean shot thru the arm with a 50/50% chance of hitting the bone w/o armor, or a 100% chance of numbing your arm and effectively rendering perhaps your useless arm while waiting for feeling to return in perhaps 15 mins or longer? By that time the battle could be over with you as the casualty.

I could go on about the pros & cons of how much armor is enough, but I think you get the point with a little imagination.

But back to the meat of topic at hand.

There is NO practical body armor that will protect a shot to the face or the gap between the helmet and body armor collar on the sides and rear of the head. If you want total protection, then think Bomb Squad suits and imagine trying to have a running battle with Hajjis while wearing that 100 lb plus suit.

Also, don’t get wrapped up in emotionalism. Armor and accessory makers are in the business of selling their products, with or without DOD’s blessing. In the same way that deficient armor was pitched at families, there are others who still make pitches at the family as an end run around stringent DoD testing & QA/QC.

At least the army was able to take corrective action when it was discovered that the preferred armor would deteriorate over time to the point of falling apart. Who is watching out for the troops when they buy unapproved armor & accessories?

In fact there’s a current campaign underway to sell gunner’s sling at https://www.coopersling.com/adopt_a_gunner.php

Sounds good, don’t it? Just tugs your heart’s string and makes you want to fire off another campaign to “get” Bush & Rummy, don’t it?

Only problem is this — The Cooper Sling Seat was not selected as the Army’s gunner’s restraint solution because it:

a) Impacted the gunner’s operational effectiveness because it decreases his/her mobility – The gunner cannot turn more than ~180 degrees independent of the turret.

b) There is considerable travel in the restraint system, allowing the gunner to build momentum before being “jerked” to a sudden stop.

c) The restraint design interferes with gunner’s ability to drop back into the vehicle during roll-over IAW standard operating procedures.

d) The Cooper seat/restraint did hold the gunner to the top of the vehicle where, in a rollover, the gunner would be crushed between the ground and the top of the vehicle. Use of the Cooper seat/restraint will lead to almost certain serious injury or death in a roll over accident.

e) Testing performed on one version of the Cooper seat/restraint system showed that it did not prevent the gunner from being ejected out of the gunner’s hatch.

In addition, this advertisement implies that the Army is not doing anything to address this issue when, in fact, PM Tactical Vehicles is providing 500 systems (tested and approved by the Army Test and Evaluation Command) per week.

Like any other critical problems, solutions take time to develop. 1) identify the shortcomings, 2) analyse solution vectors, 3) create prototypes, 4) test and re-evaluate, 5) field a controlled set and follow the performance in the real world, (soldiers are capable of doing things never conceived/anticipated in the laboratory — and not necessarily to the good) 6) re-evaluate results, redesign where necessary, 7) finally make it available to all — as fast as they can be produced.

Bottomline, if you’re going to attach yourself to any bandwagon, do your homework first. Catchy soundbites are just that, catching the unaware, while someone dances to the bank.

If after all the above, you still think Bush/Rove/Rummy are to blame for this so-called body armor fiasco, you have truly been assimilated by the partisan moonbats.

If you think the Pentagon bureaucrats are to blame, then why on earth would you want to entrust anything of import to you and yours to ANY government agency and their attendent bureaucrats?

You’re kidding me right? The entire claim that Iraq had WMD proved to be wholly untrue.
Saddam Hussein had a nuclear arsenal ready to attack us: “we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud”

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/08/le.00.html

In Bush’s letter to the Speaker and President Pro-Tempore of the Senate, Bush linked Iraq to 9/11 as part of his justification.

acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-1.html

We know Iraq had nothing to do with the people who attacked my city and the Pentagon.

Bush said he would get a second vote from the UN council before he attacked? He did not do that.

He also said he would only attack if Hussein didn’t allow the weapons inspectors back in. They were still there up until 2 days before we attacked, but did not get to complete their job because Bush was intent on starting this debacle. He did not keep his word.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/17/iraq/main544280.shtml?CMP=ILC-SearchStories
None of this rhetoric from the administration sounds familiar to you?

2.) Your statement about the inadequate armoring our troops is a tacit charge that this was by plan or ignorance. Any evidence? What, by your measure, is sufficient armoring?

I can definitely say it was not ignorance, given that as early as March 2004, it was known that troops and their families were buying their own armor.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-26-body-armor_x.htm

And that the Pentagon refuses to reimburse the troops or their families for buying their own armor in this article published as late as Sep 2005. Their refusal would not be due to ignorance.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/09/29/national/w013219D33.DTL

Sufficient armoring would be the kind that saves our troops’ lives. Just this past week, the Pentagon reported that 80% of combat deaths could have been avoided had our troops been armored properly.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,180937,00.html

I’m really surprised you haven’t heard about any of this.

You write: “I could also mention the traitorous outing of a CIA agent for political payback….”
Am I correct in assuming that you refer to Valerie Plame? If her outing was at the hands of the Bush administration and if it was traitorous, why did Fitzgerald neglect to indict anyone for the act you ascribe?

Yes, you are correct that I’m referring to Valerie Plame. Let’s see the original grand jury was limited to a certain time frame. Scooter Libby lied for 2 years. Matt Cooper and Judy Miller stonewalled for over a year. The grand jury expired. Libby’s lies and stonewalling were equivalent in football terms to running out the clock. Had Scooter Libby and the journalists been more forthcoming, Fitzgerald may have either charged the party/parties directly involved or decided that he can’t prove a crime under the espionage act was committed. He would’ve then filed a report and called it a day when the initial grand jury ended. However, we know Libby and Rove were uncooperative. This is why a new grand jury was commissioned and the investigation was continued.

You write: “….and the absolutely dismal response to a federal crisis on W’s watch that New Orleans still hasn’t recovered from….”
Huh? Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana have vast areas that are in a shambles. Why is it only about New Orleans? How long does an informed person such as yourself think it should take to clear and rebuild an infrastructure that has been so destroyed. (At least in Hawaii they don’t require the lava flows to be removed.)

Of course it is tragic what happened to the entire gulf area. I mentioned New Orleans specifically because this country’s enemies saw that four years after 9/11, the dept of Homeland Security was ill equipped to respond to an emergency in a highly populated area. My heart goes out to everyone in the gulf area. When I say recovered from, I don’t just mean rebuilding the city’s infrastructure, of course that takes time. Since Katrina, there are over 6,000 people still unaccounted for. 1,000 of the missing are children. Four months after Katrina, still no commitment from the federal government to shore up the levees to withstand a cat 5 storm. Things like this need to be addressed.

You write: “Poor guy, I bet you really thought this was reply of yours was witty too. Keep trying, you’ll get there one day. LOL”
I intended my reply to be equivalent to the integrity of your charges.
I will accept that you are blinded by a hatred of Bush. But your KOS talking points expose you as being uninitiated in fundamentals of logic.

You can write me off as being uninitiated in the fundamentals of logic, I just happen to be informed. I’ve been hearing about the dirty dealings of Abramoff, DeLay and the K Street project for well over a year now. DeLay has always been dirty and it’s not just him. Frist is under investigation by the SEC for insider trading. I’d be really surprised to see these guys clean up their own act when they have no incentive to.