Tannette Johnson-Elie writes about immigrants and the entrepreneurial drive, something largely absent among black Americans in inner cities:
Porter’s research, along with other recent studies, show that immigrants bring something you can’t get from a government program: work ethic and job-creation skills, and ambition coupled with the resolve to make the most of the investment others have made in them.
“They engage in businesses that most of us don’t want to engage in, like Laundromats and dry cleaners. They have a dogged determination to succeed,” said Keenan Grenell, associate provost for diversity at Marquette University.
Instead of complaining about how immigrants come here and take jobs or how they set up shops in black neighborhoods that they often don’t understand, let’s applaud them for their ambition and their willingness to do the things to help the economy that we wouldn’t do.
I’ve often marveled at the fact that immigrants are willing to venture into some of the most dangerous locales where few others would go and create successful businesses. I know few people, myself included, who are willing to take such risks or who have the motivation to work the horrendous hours – 12 to 16 hours a day – that many immigrants often put in to nourish and build their businesses.
For many decades, black folks here and across the nation have watched immigrants quietly come into our neighborhoods and dominate niches, such as dry-cleaning shops and gas stations. (Source)
Also read Johnson-Elie’s recent feature article, Immigrants create a new land of opportunity. I assume many of you know immigrants who came to America with very little but managed to achieve the American dream. And I’m sure many of you are as baffled as I am that people born and raised in this great country really believe their skin color prevents them from doing the same.
Despite my posturing and sometimes deliberately puffed-up pontificating, I’m nothing special.
I’ve worked hard to build up this blog and my consulting business. I’m always looking out for ways to market myself and learn new things. For example, I’m as frightened of public speaking as anyone else, but I force myself to do it and to get better at it because it provides both a challenge and exposure. Challenges build character and marketable skills whether or not you overcome the challenges. It is the struggle that’s important and what stimulates me.
Embracing the struggle and overcoming challenges are part of my personality. It’s why I’m so critical of what I consider wasted opportunity and people who don’t want to struggle. But I often fail to consider that some people’s struggles are overwhelmingly debilitating.
Not everyone can make the same decisions and take the same path I took. Not everyone grows up in a decent home or with a father or with a father who is an entrepreneur. Some grow up mired in what’s called a “cycle of poverty,” an attitude passed down from generation to generation. Broadly defined (there are exceptions), this cycle perpetuates underemployment, illegitimacy, substance abuse, and criminality. Typically, these are characteristics of the “underclass,” a sub-group that functionally lives outside the mainstream.
I know people who are members of the underclass. They are in my own family. Some were friends growing up. I pass them on the streets of Washington, D.C., (as I’ve done in Philadelphia), and sit beside them on the subway. I see their lifestyles glorified on TV and in movies. I’ve watched liberals pander to them, promising more government perks and blame-shifting. I’ve worked on gang trials and had to look at their remorseless faces all day, five days a week and listened to testimony of their murderous deeds and collated bloody crime scene and autopsy photos of people murdered because they were witnesses.
(Criminals come from all social classes, so I’m not implying that only the underclass produces criminals or that all members are criminals.)
I have yet to meet a white liberal who can attest to the same or anything close to it. I had an interesting conversation at CPAC with a white conservative on this topic. She’s had some experience with the underclass, and her naivety about what works is gone. More important, though, is what she said about liberals who push social programs that keep them locked in the cycle.
“Is this all liberals want for them? Handouts? Don’t they believe people can do better and should expect more than what liberals think they should have? I’ve seen it up close, and I know those social programs do not work.” (paraphrased)
I didn’t have an answer for her.
This may sound mean-spirited (it’s not), but I believe some people want nothing more than to exist and engage in every vice imaginable. They have no regard for others, not even the children they sired. To me, that ought to be criminal. They don’t care what you or I think of them, they have so sense of pride or conscience, and they’re only out for themselves. (That’s fine when you’re earning your own way, but when you’re living on my tax dollars…) When convenient and/or profitable, they’ll blame others for their lot: racist Republicans, Democrats who aren’t doing enough for “black people,” their probation officers (!), their own family…
This may sound unrealistic (it’s not), but I believe people who want to improve their lives find a way to do it, whether they sign up for classes or job training or seek out others who’re successful. Even if they live in the most blighted of neighborhoods with no decent role models whatsoever, they can better their lives.
And this is where I can close the circle. I need to make an effort to seek out such people. Individuals have different motivations, varied levels of talent, skill, and drive, and different levels of exposure to opportunity. I certainly didn’t come this far on my own. I have a supportive family, encouraging friends, influential acquaintances, a drive to be ambitious and different, and most of all, a relationship with the living God.
To righteously criticize bums and social parasites of all colors isn’t unbiblical; to offer no hope definitely is. I try to do that on this blog, but the people who need to hear and read the words the most probably don’t read blogs.
Nothing touches me more than to see people willing to struggle. The whole world may be against them, but they are bound and determined to make something of themselves when no one has faith in them. The cycle of poverty and failure can be broken. I must be willing to help those who want to break it but don’t know how any way I can.
One thing is certain: hope doesn’t cost money, and I’ve got plenty of it to share.
Update:
- Listen to my interview with Lores Rizkalla last week and the one with Captain Ed on Saturday live from CPAC.
- Part III of the Intelligence series will be posted this week. I may add a fourth post. Lots of info. See The Last Taboo (Part I) and Some Research (Part II).
- Lost in the shuffle: CPAC wrap up.
- Blogging Brit Clive Davis reviews John McWhorter’s new book, Winning the Race: Beyond the Crises in Black America. That’s what I’m talking about, naysayers…who inexplicably read my blog although they hate it. Human nature is weird!
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Poverty of spirit is the most corrosive element in a life of failure. I too have worked among those I have come to regard as driven by demonic forces.
But always in that seething cauldron of amorality you will find a few who can be winnowed away and encouraged and supported on a path to personal responsibility and some level of success.
Our job as mentors and guides is never finished. I find that cops, firemen, and often public health people can tell you who is ready to respond to a dedicated big brother or big sister.
To be a mentor means that you are always ready to help and to measure your successes with teaspoons. It also means that you know how to guard yourself from those who will suck every ounce of energy from you.
An easy place to get your feet wet in helping is to take on reading with and to pre-schoolers and elementary school kids.
The black poverty of spirit population is huge in numbers. But those children with a glimmer of hope will respond to all colors of skin and age of faces. Whether you can lead them to triumph in their success over their environment is not a sure thing. You must be able to handle failure and, I am sorry to say, a lot of it.
Ms. Barber,
I appreciate your message of hope for the underclass of the United States and African-Americans in particular, but I believe that in many ways you play into the “model minority” myth that helps justify many racist practices in this country.
Let me state this clearly: racism still exists in this country.
There are many structures and institutional policies that mkae it difficult for Black people to progress. There are significant disparities in business start-up loans (http://www.startupjournal.com/howto/minorityissues/199907080906-tannenbaum.html
“Black applicants for small-business financing are denied credit twice as often as whites with similar creditworthiness, according to the latest research . . . One key study, already posted by the National Bureau of Economic Research, found raw loan-denial rates of 27% for whites and 66% for blacks”)
as well as home loans (http://www.huduser.org/publications/fairhsg/unequal.html
“While expanded access to credit is critical, there is growing evidence that some lenders may be engaged in predatory lending that is making homeownership far more costly for blacks and poor families than for whites and middle-class families.”)
These practices among many others (such as health care: http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3740/4475.aspx “The report from that study, Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care, found that a consistent body of research demonstrates significant variation in the rates of medical procedures by race, even when insurance status, income, age, and severity of conditions are comparable. This research indicates that U.S. racial and ethnic minorities are less likely to receive even routine medical procedures and experience a lower quality of health services.) are not fiction and they contribute to the current problems of many underclass African-Americans.
There is more to the “absence of entrepeneurial drive” among African-Americans than hope and motivation.
Should these problems be corrected with “hand outs”? Probably not, but to argue that African-Americans simply need to get up and go ignores real unequal treatment between races. Ignoring institutional discrimination grants many people who already believe that Blacks are inherently inferior a pass and places the blame on those who have been and continue to be mistreated.
Black people need to work harder . . . everyone in this country needs to work harder . . . but there is more to this discussion than motivation and hand-outs.
#2 Hull: I am curious. How did penniless Vietnamese corner the market on painting fingernails? They have to pay the same mall rents everyone else pays. They have to advertise. They have to produce a salable product. They have to learn to communicate. They have to show up everyday on time with a “can-do” attitude.
Is there some “positive racism” force working on their behalf?
When I need work on my yard or house, why am I flooded with Mexican labor? The Mexican migrant worker is not one of our area’s most esteemed residents. I have no preference for them over the many black unemployed in the area. However, the black unemployed do not put forth the effort to be employed. It is as simple as that.
To use the words of the late Deng Xiaoping of China: I don’t care if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice.
Helio,
There is an interesting website, modelminority.com (http://modelminority.com/)that addresses the issue that you raise. Your issue can be summed up as:
“Why can’t blacks be more like them?”
Of course, when we ask that question we fail to mention the staggering poverty among Southeast Asians, or the fact that the most successful Asian sub-groups came to this country with both business experience and usually college educations, or the fact that despite hard work, Asian Pacific Islanders still earn between 11-26% less than their white counterparts, even when their qualifications are equal.
As the website I mentioned states on their front page: “Americans reluctant to address the realities of continuing racism and white privilege have consistently portrayed Asian Americans as a “model minority” who have uniformly succeeded by merit.
While superficially complimentary to Asian Americans, the real purpose and effect of this portrayal is to celebrate the status quo in race relations. First, by over-emphasizing Asian American success, it de-emphasizes the problems Asian Americans continue to face from racial discrimination in all areas of public and private life. Second, by misrepresenting Asian American success as proof that America provides equal opportunities for those who conform and work hard, it excuses American society from careful scrutiny on issues of race in general, and on the persistence of racism against Asian Americans in particular.”
The model minority myth allows us to pretend that racism does not exist. Unfortunately, that is not yet the case.
Warning:: Wild Theory coming up:
Could it be that immigrants are different from people who are not immigrants? Regardless of race?
Someone who is an immigrant has made the decision that they want a better life. That person also has the hope that there IS a better life than what they have had so far, and has the faith that by hard work they can accomplish that. People with that outlook are different from the people that stay behind (where ever that is). And they will tend to succeed more than those that stay behind. And they will tend to succeed more than those who are the stay-behinders in their new country, too, for the same reasons.
And this is NOT a racial thing. Check out the many African immigrants, and Caribbean immigrants, who are working hard, often in their own businesses, and are succeeding. I think esp. of the many East African immigrants where I live.
Only by recognizing that this is not a racial thing, but an attitude/hope/faith thing as LaShawn says, can there be progress. Then maybe we’ll get away from the Welfare Hush Money approaches of the past.
I may be a bit biased, but I live in a city where the entrepreneurial spirit is very much alive among blacks. Here in Atlanta, middle, upper middle and wealthy blacks are not hard to find and they worked very hard for their success. I do see where the author of this piece is trying to say though and some of her points are valid. Not sure why there are more successful blacks here in Atlanta than another city. That would make a pretty good study.
LaShawn,
Great article. I taught in inner city schools in the early 70’s. I saw the money pouring in from “The Great Society” and no change at all for my students with alcoholic and irresponsible parents. The stories I could tell…Money, of course, doesn’t create a good parent…
However, I wanted to tell you about a white culture in the same shape as the inner city black culture. My daughter and her son live in the middle of it here in the Midwest. It is just as horrible as anything I saw in the inner city.
I am fearful for the newest generation of children, black and white, being raised in these abusive homes, uncared for, untaught, unloved. It is truly frightening for the future of our society.
#6 – Piku, I think you’re on to something. I’ve had dark-skinned immigrants, many with thick accents (who surely are discriminated against) tell me that anyone who can’t make money in this country must be lazy.
Remember the skits that were on “In Living Color” where the family members would deride each other something like this: “You lazy, lazy girl. You only have 3 jobs”?
LaShawn – I believe the Lord is also preparing me to do something, I just don’t what yet. This verse in Matthew 9 really hit me the other day: “When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd”. I’m not sure what the call will be, mentoring, tutoring, or something I can’t even imagine, but I do know I need to develop a soft heart and a tough skin!
Why do you think that some people “want nothing more than to exist and engage in every vice imaginable”? I find it hard to reconcile the above statement with your statement that you “often fail to consider that some people’s struggles are overwhelmingly debilitating.” I see those as connected. I think that that it usually a result of that person’s life experience.
I grew up in the inner city and I have been successful, but I saw people with similiar skills and drive to me, that didn’t have the benefits that I had (i.e. a strong, supportive mother; no alcohol or drugs in the family, etc). Not having those benefits can wear down a person when they get in a rut.
Great post!
The two aren’t necessarily connected, Shareef. They aren’t mutually inclusive. Some people have seemingly insurmountable problems yet strive for better; others are straight up, good for nothing bums unwilling to seek a decent life, and others fall somewhere in between.
After reading this post it’s more clear to me than ever why these immigrants must be kept out of the country.
My first try at obtaining financing to start a business resulted in an emphatic answer: NO.
My second try at obtaining financing to start a business resulted in an equally emphatic answer: NO.
My third try at obtaining financing to start a business resulted in another emphatic answer: NO.
Kinda depressing, to say the least. But then I went back to each lender, sat with the loan officer, and asked for advice. One told me I should contact the SBA office at the local university. I did that. Got excellent counselling on what I needed to do. Trouble was, each solution required that I have money before I could ask to borrow any. Catch 22.
I then approached several venture capital firms, the sort who will back a company without the same financial requirements up front. The answers were NO, NO, NO, and NOT NOW.
So, after a solid year of NO, I retrenched. Gave up my grandiose plan for a big splash entry into the business world. Set up a few small shelves in my garage. Pledged my soul to a small manufacturer in exchange for a very limited open account. Kept my day job and called on a potential customer or two during lunch. Generated a few small sales. Paid my bill to the manufacturer. Bought more stuff. Sold more stuff.
After a year or so, the garage was full of inventory, I was exhausted, and I had to quit my job to run the business.
Another year of beans and bacon, and I was back to making as much money as I had been on salary, which wasn’t much. Moved out of the garage and into a small commercial storage unit.
Over the next 10 years I hired help, moved into larger quarters four times, and built the business into something that resembled a going concern.
Then I sold it, because I had an idea for another business. The proceeds from the sale went to finance the new business.
That was 15 years ago, and the new business is providing a decent living.
Oh, and these days it’s the bankers who are seeking me out, not the other way around. Quite satisfying indeed to remind them of the days when they could only say NO.
I guess my point is that not accepting NO for an answer, but looking for a way around it, really does work. Not giving up when faced with huge roadblocks works. Having a little faith in yourself works. Being willing to take it on the chin for a dream works.
As one of my personal heroes, Winston Churchill, once said: “…never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense.”
Shareef,
La Shawn is correct when she says that “some people want nothing more than to exist and engage in every vice imaginable”. I see and deal with a lot of them each and every day. I don’t see any conflict between that and her statement that “some people’s struggles are overwhelmingly debilitating”.
Many people come upon failure and/or hard times and either shut down or choose the wrong path. Those people can often be put back on the road to success with a little bit of a helping hand. But for others, no amount of help will ever be enough, they just want more without ever putting forth any effort to change their situation, because they are willing to settle for whatever they can get. Of course they WANT more, they just want it to be given to them.
For many it is a learned behavior from a lifetime of living off the government. I have seen people refuse housing because it would mean a small portion of their government check would go toward that instead of feeding their vices, and refuse job offers because it would interfere with their life of “rippin’ and runnin” (a direct quote). Living on the dole can be very debilitating in and of itself. For some people it can lead to a wasted existence and remove any desire to struggle for success, just as La Shawn has stated.
Though La Shawn mostly directs her concerns toward the plight of American Blacks, I have seen this cut across all racial lines.
RedBeard,
I agree with your post and I’m not trying to say that hard work and perseverence do not pay off. But there are also institutional obstacles for many people in this country that make extremely difficult situations such as yours, even more difficult.
I think there are two messages that need to be pushed forward: 1) Work Hard, Persevere, Don’t Give Up,
and
2) We need to do MORE work, not LESS, to remove unfair obstacles.
I think when Liberals and Conservatives get into discussions like this the debate becomes an “either-or” situation. EITHER you agree that hard work pays off OR you agree that institutional obstacles to success exist.
There is room for both points of view and I think both points of view need to be articulated to solve economic problems in this country.
Context.
No one falls to earth from outer space. We are all shaped by genes, family and society. The nothing-to-homeowner immigrant heart and mind are simply in a different place than a 5th generation American who can’t get on his/her feet. Everything that shaped them is different, and there is no way to fairly compare them without taking this into consideration.
So, what to do?
I don’t have an easy answer, and I do know that there are no easy solutions. Holding people more accountable is a start. Drawing clearer lines in the sand. Handouts, no.
“5th generation American who can’t get on his/her feet”
Who qualifies for this label???
Ok let’s get down and dirty. First off, I’m white..Norwegian even so I glow white. Now, I am 59 years old. My youngest sister is 38..4 of us in between. Dad worked on the dock hauling freight. Mom worked part-time waitressing, cleaning house and selling gravestones. Dad was an alcoholic..raving even..sometimes leaving for days at a time with a gun in hand. Buried his bottles in my dresser drawers..that was fun and occasionlly we were beat. However, when dad wasn’t drinking he was a wonderful man and he quit drinking in his latter life and I loved him. I have not received one penny in my life that I didn’t earn except for the occasional small lottery win. I remember wearing my sweaters backwards in school (with the buttons down the back) cause I didn’t have the regular ones. I couldn’t be a part of school activities after school cause there was no transportation other than the bus after school..no second car and we lived in the country. The dentist was a trip..no novacaine for fillings (when we went). My hair was straight as a stick..I got a permanent once and looked like I had been fried. After graduating from H.S. at age 17, mom told me number 1 priority was to get life insurance…can you imagine? I was 17!!! To make rather long story short, I made it. I worked my ass off. I even learned how to dress and get a decent hairdo. I met a man who I married who was obsessive about paying bills and any debt we had was paid off even though we did without any luxuries. Thanks to my good education in H.S., I was able to get a series of ever increasing responsibility/pay jobs. I had one year of college. I ended my career as a director. I retired early 3 years ago. Just today I got a call asking for consulting help for a drug company (remember I have no college degree). Yes, you may be black, but it hasn’t been exactly a luxury trip being white for me. If I have offended, so be it.
Lots more to my story, but everyone has one and it’s never easy. If it was, everybody would be Paris Hilton and simply, no thanks.
Poverty is a M-O-R-A-L problem; not a social problem.
Diligence, sobriety, thrift, familial responsibility, behavior—those are all moral virtues….and the poor who practice those virtues, aren’t being rewarded by society.
The ones who are being rewarded are the unwed mothers, drunks, and other reprobates….all because our Government won’t distinguish between the “deserving” vs. the “undeserving” poor.
The solution obviously isn’t Government which just encourages the cycle of immorality, by labeling it “Mental Illness”, giving psychotropic drugs; and then further rewarding immorality through affirmative action, and affordable housing give-a-ways.
The solution is moral reform done on a private basis, where distinctions between the “deserving”, and “undeserving” poor, can be made.
Those who practice the virtues of sobriety, thrift, familiar responsibility, diligence etc…get rewarded with a Mentor in the Community.
Those who refuse to practice these virtues….why must taxpayers subsidize such behavior?
Part of the problem is the current crop of role models and mentors.
It’s difficult to ask the underclass to practice virtue and morality, when all they see is sports figures and celebrities embracing a life of vice.
Read here about the most stunning defeat socialism has ever faced.
http://futurist.typepad.com
How does the life of vice address institutional racial disparities? In other words, if Black people in the exact same circumstances as White people are denied home loans more often, what does that have to do with their “moral virtues”?
If Black people in the exact same circumstances as White people are given a lower standard of health care what does that have to do with “moral virtue”?
Contemporary Civil Rights Activist Tim Wise says the following in regard to white privilege:
“Despite being an obvious institutionalized phenomenon to people of color and even some whites, white privilege is typically denied, and strongly, by most of us.
Usually, this denial plays out in one of two ways: either we seek to shift the focus of discussion to our status as members of some other group that isn’t socially dominant (so, for example, whites who are poor or working class will insist that because of their economic marginalization, they effectively enjoy no racial privilege at all), or we retreat to the tired but popular notion that all have an equal opportunity in this, our colorblind meritocracy.”
And yet despite varied economic situations where many white people, like Dianne, experience extreme poverty, the facts that I presented regarding disparities in home loans, business loans, and health care (in addition to disparities in educational opportunity and employment opportunity) remain.
There are certainly poor white people in this country as is invariably pointed out when any discussion of race, privilege, and institutional discrimination comes up. But, the fact that there are poor white people does not address the numerous forms of racism in this country.
I am very heartened to see this post! Several times I have posted comments on this blog making the very same argument as Tannette: that immigrants come here with a strong work ethic, and indeed reinfuse US culture with hard-working values. Unfortunately, it seems lots of people prefer to view immigrants as merely lazy criminals, and solely a negative drain on the economy.
But it’s American culture at large that is the more lazy and leisure-oriented. The Mexican immigrants (living in the Southwest, this is the group I am most familiar with) who come to this country – legally or (mostly) otherwise – tend by contrast to be extremely hard working. Of course this is a generalization for which many exceptions can be found – but as flawed generalizations go, I think it is pretty accurate.
My own experience as a restaurant owner bore this out time and time again. Invariably, whenever I hired US-born Anglo or African-Americans for jobs such as dishwashing or bussing tables, quite often they would be late, show up drunk, or fail to show up altogether. When I hired immigrants for these positions, however, my experience was almost always positive. I understand that the work is not the most attractive, and the pay relatively low, but I really appreciated the consistency and diligence these workers regularly displayed. I was frequently happy to raise their salaries to retain their service, and just to help them along. But it can’t be said I “gave” them anything – they earned it.
When appliances broke down in my kitchen, I also observed a interesting pattern when dealing with non-Immigrant repair businesses as opposed to Immigrant owned ones. The anglo or black operations tended to shun business that wasn’t convenient for them – ie, they often would refuse to work on appliance brands that they weren’t very familiar with, or didn’t want to service a location that was more than a few miles away, or couldn’t send somebody out until next week, or… on and on. The latino businesses, frequently staffed by recent immigrants, were usually much more “can do” – they didn’t care what make or model of your refrigerator was; they could fix it, and were eager for your business.
All I’m saying here is that 1) if you are going to look at the negative impacts of immigration to the economy, fine – but it is only fair to balance that against the enormous positives. 2) Immigrants can inpsire a work ethic that is sometimes lagging in the US.
Hull, you proceed from the assumption that the above is: a. true; and b. it’s because of institutional racism.
I, for one, am not buying this at all. If you can provide an example where the EXACT same circumstances (credit scores, income, etc.) result in a black family getting shafted, and the white family being approved for a loan, then maybe you’ll have a point.
All of this aside, your point just solidifies LaShawn’s point, that racism is an excuse used by those who could do better, but don’t.
Correction – my above comment had to do with Hull’s comment about home loans, not health care.
PIMF.
TV (Harry)
Please see my earlier post #2:
“These practices among many others (such as health care: http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3740/4475.aspx “The report from that study, Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care, found that a consistent body of research demonstrates significant variation in the rates of medical procedures by race, even when insurance status, income, age, and severity of conditions are comparable. This research indicates that U.S. racial and ethnic minorities are less likely to receive even routine medical procedures and experience a lower quality of health services.) are not fiction and they contribute to the current problems of many underclass African-Americans.”
Please see previous post #2 for data on disparities in home loans
“For many decades, black folks here and across the nation have watched immigrants quietly come into our neighborhoods and dominate niches, such as dry-cleaning shops and gas stations.”
After reading this statement the person who wrote this has clearly discounted the northern migration of blacks in the 1950’s to the late 1960’s. I grew up in Detroit in the 70’s to the mid eighties from my own eyes I will give you the following examples of how that statement is false and destructive. My father owned his own carpet installation business for well over 30 years, the job I held during high school was working for my neighbor who ran his own janitorial services (we cleaned 3 mid size office buildings) this man’s family also for over 30 years his family OWNED a Dry Cleaner. Every major home repair ever done to our home was done by business run by black men (fix the furnace, replace a hot water heater, pour concrete and build a fence to name a few). Some of these men also ran these businesses while holding full time jobs in the automobile factories of Detroit to give their families a better life. Many more families held rental property around the city. I am sure the same can be said for every other major American city that had an influx of southern black families during the same time period. To discount and what these men accomplished is purely shameful and dismissive. Most the children of those men and women did not enter into the family business.
More info on racial inequality in home loans:
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/1999/03/22/story3.html
“Across all three of the income groups analyzed in the San Antonio area, for example, denial rates for Hispanics and Blacks were significantly higher than those for Whites. (The data were divided into low-moderate-, middle- and upper-income categories.)”
http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=9755
National data released by the Federal Reserve on September 13th confirmed that the racial disparities remain large even after controlling for borrower income, loan amount and other similar borrower traits.
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Race_Ethnicity/Disparities_RI/econ_reports/risk_or_race.htm
The findings of this study strengthen the results of similar studies demonstrating that risk alone does not account for widespread racial disparities in subprime lending. Surprisingly, the racial disparity in subprime borrowers persists and is enlarged in higher-income populations. Racial disparities in the subprime lending market are found across all regions of the nation, and in MSAs of all sizes.
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/98legacy/05-14-1998.html
The 1993-95 numbers show that the home loan approval rate in Oakland was lowest for African Americans, at 66.6 percent. Hispanics were next at 75.8 percent, followed by American Indians at 76.3 percent and Asians at 81.1 percent. The approval rate for whites was 86.9 percent.
“Often when people talk about discrimination in mortgage lending, there’s a question of how much of that is (based on) income and how much is based on race,” said Landis. The report, using multivariate regression statistical techniques, isolates the impact of race from that of income “in a very useful way,” he added.
For example, home loan approval rates for whites and African Americans differed by 9.2 percentage points among applicants in the lowest income quartile. In the highest income quartile the approval rates for whites and African Americans differed by 20.7 percentage points.
The more than 20 percent difference between whites and African Americans in the highest income group “is a pretty overwhelming gap, which we believe can’t be explained away by credit history,” said Blout.
I found these after about 5 minutes of Google research, but there are plenty more if you’re interested.
I hope you’re aware that being turned down for a loan isn’t evidence of “racism.” I can’t tell how sick I am of the implication. But human nature being what it is, implications and accusations will continue. You can post 100 links to 100 stories and studies, and it still won’t prove racism. What it shows is that black people are turned down at higher rates because they, as a group, have worse credit histories than other groups. You want to address the problem, teach people the importance of paying bills and paying them on time. Lending institutions have every right to set the criteria, and if the standard disproportionately impacts blacks as a group, the solution is to raise them up to the standard, not drag down the standard. That’s been done in the government education and hiring sectors for too long. Look at the lousy results.
But Lashawn, what about rich Black people who also receive disparate treatment in home loans (as several of the studies I point to display clearly)? Should rich Black people be held responsible for the financial practices of poor Black people?
How is that not racist? Why should all Black people be held responsible for the actions of the few?
If these decisions are based on RACE then that is the very definition of racism. In other words, some rich people have good credit; if those people are being denied loans at a higher rate than comparable whites and the SOLE basis for that decision is that rich Black people are Black, then I can’t see how you could not consider that racist.
#21 Hull writes: “If Black people in the exact same circumstances as White people are given a lower standard of health care what does that have to do with “moral virtueâ€?”
I will skip the “moral virtue” part because it totally confuses me. But what is this stuff about “Black people” being “given a lower standard of health care”?
I sit on the board of a local hospital and that charge is as serious a charge as can be lodged.
I will not be swayed by a web “rant” site that has cobbled together some mish-mash of statistics that backs this charge.
Health care in this country is mostly paid for by the patient out of pocket or through his insurance program. A much smaller, but growing number of people receive free or reduced cost health care through free clinics, public health services or local, state and Federal health programs. These programs include transportation to and from the health care centers.
Looking at race only, you will find that poor blacks have a statistically higher tendency to present themselves for health care late into their need for treatment. They also tend to have a number of lifestyle problems that are contrary to good health practices which exacerbate their health problems.
I have never met in my 45 years of involvement with health care a health practitioner who responded to the health problem at hand in a biased manner regarding the patient. This includes people who have stabbed each other and are spraying blood known to be HIV positive all over the health care providers.
The hospital I serve has a 24 hour emergency room that is always attended by emergency room physicians. We have people who present themselves for the smallest scratch, but we give them medical attention and absorb the cost if they are unable to pay. We do operate a system of triage so that minor cases do not interfere with serious cases.
Last night, I spent many hours with a deeply wounded young lady. Our physicians determined that her fetus had died. Her boyfriend immediately started rejoicing and the mother broke down completely. We finally had to have the “father” removed by the police while we tried to help the young lady with her medical and emotional needs. Everybody present was shaken and sickened by this event, but everyone, including the police showed great common courtesy and professional concern for all, including the man who was overjoyed at avoiding fatherhood.
My presence in the emergency room is as an ombudsman for the patient. Every board member cycles through this role on a regular basis. It is how we know what is happening in the hospital.
All health care facilities have to meet state and federal guidelines. To assert that there is a racial bias in medical treatment in this country is a charge that John Edwards and his medical mal-practice cronies are waiting to take on. They will make themselves a hundred times richer if your charge has any substance.
As the previous posts imply, the situation is complex, and defies a simple analysis. In my work in the church I have encountered people who were utterly convinced that they could not be successful, apparently by the rhetoric which is pervasive in lower income areas black community: that is, the idea that the deck is already so stacked against you that any failure can be traced back to individual or institutionalized racism. Now, this is not at all to deny that such things exist. On the contrary, in some quarters, it is positively flourishing. However, success for my people in these areas has not been made impossible (or even unlikely) by those evils. It is, to my mind, the responsibility of those who understand this to communicate to the less fortunate, making sure that they have been made aware of every avenue by which they can indeed succeed. This implies, however, a willingness by those who are aware and have prospered by that awareness, to make the effort even though there is a distinct probability that their feelings will be hurt in the process. Not everyone will receive the jewels which you are offering with gratitude. However, that is often the price which must be paid by thos who wish to convey a genuine blessing.
That having been said, I want to assure everyone that I am mindful of that very small sector of the black community which will not accept any measure of help on this level, simply because they have found it easier to believe blanket truths, and have learned anger as a way of living. This, in combination with the truth that we all carry within us an inborn resistance to change, makes that sector truly problematic.
In short, these are character issues which can only be addressed by prayer. Because I have seen its power, I don’t consider the difficulty to be overwhelming. I think that I am required to bring everything at my disposal to bear against something that affects us all, in the ultimate service of the Gospel. Otherwise, when I tell people about the love of Christ, they have no good reason to believe me.
Should rich Black people be held responsible for the financial practices of poor Black people?
I have no idea what you’re talking about or where this came from. People are judged by their individual applications, not against a group application.
I can tell you’re new to the blog. I’ve been patient with your use of the “R” word, but it’s getting kind of old. I don’t like it when white commenters or black commenters use it. Be creative and find a new word or new argument. If you’re not interested in assigning blame (some? a little?) to individuals responsible for their own lives, even if “racism” in 2006 is kicking like Jim Crow, I can suggest quite a few liberal blogs where you’d feel right at home.
I know I have made many comments on this thread and I am not trying to filibuster the conversation, but I’d like to make one point by analogy regarding holding all Black people responsible for the actions of a few (in home lending).
“According to the most recent NHSDA survey, in 1998 there were an estimated 9.9 million whites (72 percent of all users) and 2.0 million blacks (15 percent) who were current illicit drug users in 1998.” http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-05.htm
So does that mean that we should investigate and prosecute whites more often and more harshly? No. Individuals should be judged on an individual basis.
Huh? The “analogy” or whatever it is makes no sense. Law enforcement should arrest people who possess and use illicit drugs. Period. I don’t understand how and why the percentage of a group who possesses and uses drugs relates to the harshness and frequency of prosecution. An unworkable and headache-inducing point. – Admin
#32. Armand:
Amen.
And beautifully stated.
You tell ‘em LaShawn! One of the great things about this blog is that you rarely have to listen to dissenting opinions although I guess a few do get through. On other blogs you have to listen to people complain about “racism” all the time (I love how you put that word in quotes or call it the R word, LaShawn!). As regular readers of this blog know there is no such thing as “racism” in 2006.
Rarely have to listen to dissenting opinions…? I do allow them, so I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic. Let me know if I’m misreading. And quickly. – Admin
#35 Heliotrope
The kindness is appreciated.
I was being completely serious. Why do you ask?
I have to admit it. Even you’re trying to be sarcastic, which I don’t like, your comment made me laugh.
– Admin
I don’t want to come off as an agitator but I find it curious that studies and comments regarding racial disparities in healthcare, home lending, and business lending are taboo but earlier comments/threads on this blog regarding race and IQ are totally acceptable.
Why do studies on Race and IQ raise no one’s ire, but studies on Racial Disparities (far more reliable studies, I might add) elicit calls to visit “quite a few liberal blogs where you’d feel right at home”
Why is that?
Hull, let’s get something straight. Talking about racial disparities is not the problem. There is the academic achievement gap, healthcare, as you pointed out, and a host of other differences between the races. Blaming RACISM on racial disparities IS a problem. I made the comment about liberal blogs because that’s where you’d be among the like-minded. In my view, the biggest problem in the “black community” is black people themselves, not “racism,” for goodness sake.
Contrary to popular belief, this blog is not an open forum or a democracy. It is my forum, and I’m a benevolent dictator. I won’t allow commenters to harp on “racism.” It is one of the most ridiculous and tired refrains I’ve heard in my lifetime, and it’s boring.
Do me favor. Read some of the posts in the archives before you comment again because I hate repeating myself every time a new reader comments. All the questions you’d ever think of asking me have been answered ad nauseum.
#2 Hull:
I have obtained a copy of the 782 page Institute of Medicine report you reference in your #2 post above.
Your quote comes from the press release issued on March 20, 2002 urging the purchase ($75.00) of the IOM report: Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care.
I have not, of course read the 782 pages, but in reviewing the page summaries, it is obvious to me that the report does NOT even hint that racism or bigotry is anywhere at the heart of disparities in health care as it relates to racial minorities or ethnic groups.
However, the press summary would lead you to believe that the health community mistreats African Americans (their term) in cases involving diabetes and heart by-pass surgery. I have read the report thoroughly in those areas and the press release has just plain got it wrong.
Luckily for you, you can get this entire report free on line.
Fortunately, the hospital I serve has a copy of the report and I have noted that it has been read and annotated by our ethics committee.
Hopefully, you will delve further into what this report contains. I believe you will soon realize that it does not support your claims of “racism” in the health care community.
Heliotrope,
I will examine that report further particularly as it pertains to heart disease and diabetes.
I do not make claims of racism arbitrarily and I have attempted to support my claims with evidence.
When I have mischaracterized or been wrong about a subject I have no problem admitting it. Unfortunately that is not the case in most discussions between people on opposing sides of the political fence.
I do not claim that racism exist to hold anyone hostage or claim vicitim status. I claim that racism exist because there is oftentimes evidence that supports those claims.
Hull cites articles blaming racism for a lower rate of home loan applications for minorities but I question the validity of the findings. The article from the Biz Journal says the data indicate fewer blacks and Hispanics across all income levels get home loans when compared to whites, however, the article also says: “The data do not take into account borrowers’ credit histories, assets or debt — all of which play an important role in the mortgage application process, according to industry observers.” In other words, the most important determiners of home loan qualification are not contained in the data, only race. Another of Hull’s sources is the Racial and Ethnic Minority Disparities Project of Brown University. Hopefully, their heart’s are in the right place, but let’s face it: they’re an advocacy group and their objectivity can be questioned. Other sources are ACORN and the University of California at Berkeley; again, an organization and institution not known for objectivity (wasn’t it Berkeley research that claimed conservatives are mentally ill?).
You get an “A” for effort, Mike, but people who see “racism” in every disparity and around every corner typically don’t consider things like assets and debts. “Racism” is easy to claim, hard to prove, and a convenient excuse to look accusingly at everyone else except the person in the mirror.
By the same token, LaShawn, many on the Right often over-extend the idea of “personal responsibility”, using it as a convenient excuse avoid to all responsibility in the maintenance of an underclass. Also, the idea of personal responsibility implies that the rich got that way solely based on their own righteous, entrepenurial personal attributes, and not by any leg up they may have got in the world based on their social class (ie – certain unnamed C students who get into Yale and Harvard because their parents are politically connected and wealthy, or certain fortunes that were made using public infrastructure).
I think there is some validity to both sides in this debate. There is racism, of course, and it can hinder upper mobility. And at the same time, personal responsibility comes into play. As usual, one finds the truth somewhere in between the rigid ideological poles.
I guess it was too much to hope for that people would use common sense while reading this post. Obviously not all successful people got that way “based on their own righteous entrepenurial personal attributes,” but that’s what I’m trying to encourage people to do. A leg up is fine. I don’t and will never begrudge anyone’s connections, and people striving to succeed on their own certainly shouldn’t expect or rely on connections or begrudge others for theirs. – Admin
It sounds to me that what you are talking about when you and other commentors emphasize personal responsibility in achieving material success in America is the whole issue of character. I do not believe that it is inconsistent to state that personal responsibility includes responsibility for the welfare of our fellow citizens and for making our society better for all of us. One of the problems I have with both liberalism and conservatism is that they tend to be reductionist in their analysis of what is wrong with our society. Conservatives argue that every problem reflects some kind of personal defect, while liberals argue that every problem is because of oppression. Both perspectives have some truth in them but neither of them alone offers the whole truth. Not every poor person is poor because they are immoral, just like not every weathy person is weathy simply because they worked hard and were virtuous. To acknowledge that we do not yet live in a colorblind society does not mean that people are not responsible for their behavior. The fact that so many black Americans have succeeded in spite of the odds is something which any American can take pride in and as you said is a source of hope and inspiration to many people of all backgrounds. It is also true, that my ancestors who were enslaved Africans were not “immigrants” which is simply a historical fact. Anyway I appreciate your continuing to focus on the issues of character and culture and the need for a fundamental spiritual transformation among Black Americans. I look forward to continuing to read your blog.
I love it when you blog like this, La Shawn. You are RIGHT ON. Another question… there is a lot of money to be made in New Orleans rebuilding after Katrina, yet it’s the illegal aliens who are rebuilding New Orleans. Why is that? I honestly think you’ve hit the nail on the head. The faster people can admit the problem, the faster it will get fixed.
I won’t even begin to speculate on what it’s like to be black and trying to succeed in America but I can speak to what it’s like for people coming from other countries.
My grandfather came to Texas in 1919, from New Brunswick Canada, he spoke French, not English, and in Texas, that’s a huge drawback, but he learned.
He didn’t have any formal education but he was a skilled tradesman, a carpenter, and he and my grandmother raised 4 kids during the great depression.
Those 4 kids raised a group of their own and we ALL love this great nation, we’re all well educated, all of my male cousins and one of the female cousins have served in the military, some making a career out of it.
We all entered the business world in one way or the other and because of our upbringing, knowing that we had to WORK for what we wanted, we ALL did very well in our endeavors.
Granted, we are *white* but we were the descendent’s of immigrants and our motivation was no different than anyone else, we were taught to succeed, by people that had worked hard just to survive…
Not trying to hijack the thread, but I want to make one final point to Hull.
LaShawn kind of stole my thunder (it just means we seem to think on the same wavelength). In my original comment, I used the term “EXACT same circumstances” for a reason. Studies, on a whole, are general. Because black people, in general, have lower credit scores, but the same income, that DOESN’T mean turning them down for a loan was racially motivated. It means the family in particular has not proven to the bank it can pay its loans, based on the credit score. No more, and no less.
If you can give me one example of the EXACT same circumstances (both white and black family’s credit score, income, etc. are relatively equal), and in that particular case, the black family was turned down, and the white family was not, then I’ll flat-out concede.
Sometimes things are what they are; Occam’s razor, and all that.
TV (Harry)
#46 Dawnbreaker writes: “To acknowledge that we do not yet live in a colorblind society ……”
There is no “colorblind society” anywhere in the world. People of color are not “colorblind” among themselves within their own isolated communities.
It would be nice if we could get to the point in civil debate where we don’t resort to impossible or unreasonable standards.
Personally, I discriminate. I don’t sit next to people who stink and I also lock my doors. I would be a liar to say otherwise. I also take notice of beautiful women. In that sexist act, I also note their color and ethnicity.
I fully realize what “colorblind” is supposed to mean to social reformers, but it is a term that succeeds in bulldozing a lot of common sense.
Well..
)… by getting rid of hyphenated America…
we could move closer to color blind (a fallacy but I’ll bite
I’ll start… I am NOT an AFRICAN AMERICAN… I AM A CHRISTIAN who was born AN AMERICAN CITIZEN (sorta reminds me of the Apostle Paul
)
Sorry La Shawn, I couldn’t help it.
Like Heliotrope hinted at. Let’s not ignore the racism we instigate ourselves within our own neighborhoods (and Da Man is no where around to blame when that’s going on most of the time).
I wish people would at least pretend to have common sense. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Although I didn’t say or imply that blacks didn’t own their own businesses, I think you’ve proven a few points I made in the post on intelligence. Being inadequate in so many ways — some obvious, some not — must be tough. I wouldn’t dream of blocking your IP because I know you like reading my blog, despite the troll droppings you left behind.
Immigrants who come over on their own, vs. coming over because a relative brings them over, already are in a group that separates them from the rest.
Most people don’t leave their country of origin, so they are more likely to have a drive that is “out of the norm”. Given this, they tend to out perform the American born population in general.
Last, but not least, for the past few years, the American Black population has been more likely to start a business than other groups. But keep that tidbit under your hat.
No if you’d used this appeal instead of insulting me, you may have softened me a bit, Steve. But alas, your credibility is crushed at LBC. You call me names, then turn around and plead with me. Strange man. By the way, any link you’ve got won’t lead to anything no one has never read before. Trust me. – Admin
You see you have to understand the immigrant by seeing the world through his/her eyes. When I was 8 yrs old my Father took me after getting his PH.D to Nigeria to live. I lived there for Twenty-Two years and came back because I had an American Passport. My experience there gave me an insight to what life is all about.
In Africa success was measured by how educated and rich you were and how well your children are doing in becoming professional graduates. The gulf between the rich and the poor is 4000% more than the gulf here in the USA. The rich and educated flaunted their wealth right in your face. The rule that all men are equal does not exist in third world countries. If you had nothing to show for the years you have spent on earth you were kicked to the curb. If you tried to steal you were dead. If you ever attempted to lash out with anger and frustration at the society you would be gladly crushed with deadly force. Almost as if you were non-human.
All benefits went to the rich and educated. In the universities there is nothing like financial aid and nobody cares.
Most of The jobs existing are for the professionals. The other way to succeed was that you had someone in government that was related to you which was very unlikely.
As a poor person you were sick with the knowledge that you had to walk three miles to have your bath in some lake everyday while the rich walked a few yards into their showers. Maybe you had to go into the bush to poop in the middle of the night (even a snake could bite your butt in the process) while the rich were in their bathrooms.
In the tropical regions rainstorms could be so severe that visibility is reduced to zero and with your leaking roof your house would be like a swamp. Worst of all, you would have to save for a lifetime to get another bed. All you had to do is hope it will dry up someday.
You would stare at people who had Laptops or Cell phones, Cars or even DVD players because that was way beyond your reach. I could go on and on.
If you refused to do something with your life, there were no drugs to sell on the street(The police would kill you without you even seeing a court or a lawyer),there is no Walmart, Burger King, Ross, McDonalds or any place that you could work with your empty brain.
Welfare does not exist. No Social Security. No Health Insurance. No House Insurance. No way out.
Here a person could get a job without even getting a GED, while most immigrants come from countries that you couldn’t find a job even with a Masters degree.
America has a longer life expectancy due to its technology in Health than in most countries.
However for an immigrant in some cases, surviving to make it to the United States is a feat in itself because you have watched a good number of people die from low health technology, corruption and abuse of power in the police and militias, lack of speed limits on the roads, hunger, wars etc.
At times to get to the USA you had to leave loved ones behind (wife and children or fiancée and you promised like Jesus that you are going to prepare a place for them and that you are coming to take them there!). By the way, it’s an enormous stroke of luck if you have someone to marry because the poor girls are tired of the poverty cycle. At times you left behind a sick Dad or Mom and you have promised them that you will make enough money to send home for their medication.
Already you are desperate because if they die a proper burial could cost you a fortune in a third world country like Nigeria. More shameful is the fact that you couldn’t afford the ticket home to attend the burial (A sign of Irresponsibility). These kinds of social values in third world countries are unique. The culture has an extremely strong sense of shame tied up with failure to rise up in life to self sufficiency.
On the other hand, like my experience, it costs a fortune to buy the flight ticket to the USA. The amount I paid for the ticket was enough to start a large sized business in Africa. Like people would say in Africa it would be better you didn’t go to the USA and become a bum than to waste that kind of money on a flight ticket. I know that some of the immigrants feel the same way too.
Meanwhile the greatest shame on earth is for your community back at Nigeria to hear the report that you don’t have the balls to make it in life even with the opportunity in the USA(The reasoning is that you are worst than a dog because even dogs win competitions over here). I could remember that this way of thinking has haunted me for a long time and created a sense of urgency in me to succeed and get settled and grounded.
You may not have any family to help you here in the USA so you cannot afford to live a life in which you get entangled with the law always.
When I came to the USA, I saw the other way of thinking. Who cares? Whatever? It is my life and I don’t care about how you perceive the fact that I am not living my life to it’s full potential!
In fact a man has all the time in the world to throw money at strippers and get a few divorces and have babies from different women all over the place and run credit cards to kingdom come. Getting entangled with the law is like drinking a glass of water. Cover yourself with a few tattoos, buy the most expensive sneakers, have an outrageous hairdo and when you smile it’s like your mouth is full of metal and most of the time when I speak with the immigrants from my ancestral country they don’t understand the African-American’s culture.
Most of all, a lot of immigrants may not want to live forever in the USA because you can live like a king with your Social Security check in other countries with people serving you all the days of your life instead of being thrown into an Old People’s Home. The hustle and bustle/fast paced life of the USA wears the older people out. So you have to make it while you can. On the other hand, if you have a successful business here, back home you were an emperor because of the value of the dollar.
As an American, I can feel like the immigrant that for the first time a lot of things are within my reach and I will work hard to get it. I have met a lot of Africans who are amazed by the system of student aid and they are all getting their PhDs and post- graduate credits and they wish there was even something higher than that.
In my experience the average immigrant feels an enormous sense of urgency to succeed and feels that there is really no time to play with his life.
Most importantly they don’t care about racism because they have concluded that racism is an integral part of the American society (In all my discussions with fellow Africans and Asians this is the conclusion) and that the greatest mistake is to sit down and cry about it. Rather there is a thousand ways to kill a cat (Numerous ways to succeed in America and by all means necessary) and that one of the major ways to succeed is in the game of higher education and corporate enterprise!
Lashawn:
Feb. 13 was inspirational. You are blessed with a sense of history, reality, compassion and hope.
God bless you.
In the current era, we live in a land of the internet where many transactions are conducted without ever meeting face to face. Home loans can be approved before ever meeting the mortgage broker and one might not even see them until the date of the closing. Given this, for those that conduct business by phone, issues of race drop out for those that speak standard english. I cannot speak as to whether there is any bias based on zipcode, but it would seem unlikely. However, besides credit scores, banks also examine assets in determining the value of the loan. Family wealth can also pay a role for people whose parents aid them with a downpayment on there first home. There, a black and white family with the same credit score could have markedly different outcomes based on family wealth and in fact I recall (sorry, I don’t have the reference) that the wealth of whites is often greater than that of blacks, even if incomes are the same. So, a study just comparing incomes might not capture this difference and it would be interesting to see how the statistics come out adjusting for these differences. Again for colleges, I don’t see race as an impediment for admission for skilled blacks.
There could be some areas where bias still exists, for example in car loans, the types of financing initially offered might be different based on perhaps unconscious biases of the seller, but then one can either change dealers. So, assuming that one survives into the professional class I think that race is not a huge obstacle in many fields (I cannot speak to how it effects networking opportunties in fields which require more marketing and personal relationships which may vary depending on race.). As for medical discrimination, I simply cannot speak to the issue. In these studies, how is treatment adjusted for income/education level of the patients? Caseload of the doctors, etc.?
However, in terms of counseling and classroom instuction in K-12, I believe that there is still a bias. By the strong (does anyone remember the, “you have to be twice as good” speech from their parents?) it can be overcome, though for weaker students it is a problem. But I’ve come to think that these biases are likely dwarfed by the effects of parental involvement/values/cultural effects (For example, do the parents encourage their kid to play football, or prepare for exams? How much effort does the parent exert into getting their kid into college? What is the pressure from your kids peers?) and issues of class (for example, what resources are available at schools in poorer neighborhoods? How much information do the parents in such neighborhoods who do want their kids to succeed have access to?). To some extent, given the legislation and enforcement against active discrimination, then the residuals that remain must be fought on a case by case basis and it becomes more important to take a good hard look at ourselves.
Heliotrope
Thanks for making my point for me. First of all I do not believe in the concept of “colorblindness”. I have no desire to live in a society where people pretend that everyone is the same. The problem is not with the obvious fact that we all notice that people are different and make common sense decisions based on that. The problem is when we make assumptions about people based solely on their physical appearance. These assumptions are not automatic, they are a choice, a habit of the mind that can lead us to making bad decisions sometimes with serious consequences.
Most importantly they don’t care about racism because they have concluded that racism is an integral part of the American society (In all my discussions with fellow Africans and Asians this is the conclusion) and that the greatest mistake is to sit down and cry about it.
In my view one of the top 10 lies/myths about American Blacks is the lie/myth that they sit down and cry about it.
The progress and gains made by American Blacks in “the last 40 years” should be enough to dispell it, but it doesn’t because the liberal and conservative media both have a vested interest in presenting this view.
LaShawn, Can’t remember if I showed you this, but please feel free to tell all your beginning bloggers about this. It’s free afterall.
http://www.fromthepen.com/web/
#57 resigned notes: “However, in terms of counseling and classroom instruction in K-12, I believe that there is still a bias.”
My experience with public schools is that there is a pernicious, liberal reverse discrimination that says we need to reward the self esteem first and worry about the basics later.
I have witnessed the growth of a cottage industry of “race card” players who protect the most needy students from having to perform and improve by calling a “race foul.” (Think ebonics, for example.) Algebra, a foreign language, proper English and a computer keyboard are colorblind to the nth. You either can or you can’t and where you live or came from has not a thing to do with the results.
Of course all this is made doubly difficult if you are sitting in a puddle of self-pity or loathing. My belief is that those who claim racial bias against them outnumber those who actually encounter racial bias by a 1000 per cent. (Now watch me get creamed for the per centage number I have chosen.)
Washington DC should have the best darn black school system ever. All the elements are there: high per pupil expenditure, black teachers, administrators, school board, etc. You know the story. So what is going on? Intra-racial bias?
Idiongo Udoh has made a valid point here. To rephrase it:
Everyone knows that residual racism exists. Now what? Stay paralyzed by fussing over the problems that racism causes, or get on with things and overcome the problems? Is there really any valid choice but the latter?
#46 Dawnbreaker writes:
“Conservatives argue that every problem reflects some kind of personal defect, while liberals argue that every problem is because of oppression. Both perspectives have some truth in them but neither of them alone offers the whole truth. Not every poor person is poor because they are immoral, just like not every weathy person is weathy simply because they worked hard and were virtuous. To acknowledge that we do not yet live in a colorblind society does not mean that people are not responsible for their behavior.”
That was so well spoken. I couldn’t agree more. But I would hasten to add that the ideology currently holding most political power in America places far too much emphasis on personal attributes to account for one’s lot in life. To me, this emphasis seems more than a little self-serving. The rich (and those who conspire to become rich) take great comfort in the idea that the poor are deserving of their fate, that they have no hand in the creation of poverty, and that they themselves got to where they are solely through their own virtue, totally independent of public resources.
In his book “The Working Poor”, David Shipler finds that poverty in America is indeed partly the result of structural conditions that hinder the poor, of predation on the poor by a whole host of exploitative agents, and of the personal failings of poor individuals. So he does put a lot of emphasis on personal responsibility, examining how many individuals find themselves in poverty largely due to their own self-destructive personal choices. But what I found most interesting about Shipler’s work was his finding of just how intertwined all of these underlaying causes are. Structural impediments, exploitation, and personal failing feed off of each other.
Anyway, I’d highly recommend this book to anyone who wants to see beyond the simple, self-serving dogmas of conservatives and liberals.
Idiongo Udoh brings up a great point:
This is true for the successfull/unsuccessful. Those who are successful recognize that the world is inherently unfair – racism, sexism, ageism exist – but they work within the confines of the conditions set for them. They succeed by working harder, working longer, and giving not 100% but 200%.
Is it harder? Yes! Is it unfair that you have to work harder just because you were born black/poor/ugly/etc? Yes! Should it be changed? Yes! CAN it be changed? Probably not.
And hey, there is nothing wrong with complaining about how unfair everything is. Complain that “da man” is keeping down. Complain that women make less than men. Believe about all these institutional disparites if you want. But what is all the complaining getting you? Nothing that will better your lot in life.
I think that is the big difference between the disadvantaged groups (not just blacks) and the successful members of that disadvantaged groups. We recognize that it IS unfair. But we work around it and achieve.
Comment by ns is what I wanted to say also..
I know quite a few Vietnamese, Korean and Laos immigrants who set up shop in black areas in the late 80’s, early 90’s and are now thriving. They fled communism. Many of them are my friends, well mostly their kids.
I can’t say that I dont know alot of successful black business people who came from the inner city because I do. They are all over here in Charlotte. Many many people have taken advantage of the opportunity to do well in business, of all colors.
I learned a ton from these brilliant business people in running my own business.
I agree with you on this, Lashawn…I love it too when people are willing to go against the odds, in the most un-welcome areas and make a success out of it.
In America, I think God gives every able-bodied and minded person the opportunity to do great things economically for themselves so that He will be blessed by it. We’re the only country in the world to have this opportunity available to everyone RIGHT NOW.
However, that person MUST choose to act on it.
There is only one sure way to test for loan discrimination. You look at the percentage of defaults for the group. If the percentage is much lower for one group. Then that group is being discriminated against. Simple and fool proof. But no one uses it. Why? Because it would show that the percentage of defaults was about the same for Whites and Blacks or a little greater for Blacks. Banks and others want paid off loans.
To prove discrimination use the DEFAULT rates. Anything else is BS.
Have fun.
Hull sez:
There are many structures and institutional policies that mkae it difficult for Black people to progress. There are significant disparities in business start-up loans“ Black applicants for small-business financing are denied credit twice as often as whites with similar creditworthiness, according to the latest research . . . One key study, already posted by the National Bureau of Economic Research, found raw loan-denial rates of 27% for whites and 66% for blacksâ€)
Few deny disparities in loans, but are the disparities due SIGNIFICANTLY to race? It would be deny that that somewhere out there, some financier was practicing bias, but how significant is the problem overall for blacks- 10%? 40%? No one seems to know. Hull cites an article that says says that “latest research” found bias even when creditworthiness was the same. It may very well be, but the latest research is not specifically detailed and was this matter people with the same creditworthiness being turned away a widespread problem, compared to the typical reason for turning down applicants- weaker credit histories? Also to be noted, most small busineses are started with personal savings and loans from acquantainces and relatives, not financial institutions or government agencies.
These practices among many others (such as health care: http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3740/4475.aspx “The report from that study, Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care, found that a consistent body of research demonstrates significant variation in the rates of medical procedures by race, even when insurance status, income, age, and severity of conditions are comparable. This research indicates that U.S. racial and ethnic minorities are less likely to receive even routine medical procedures and experience a lower quality of health services.) are not fiction and they contribute to the current problems of many underclass African-Americans.
Again, we all know “disparities” exist, but what is the cause? Racism? Some of the same medical authorities cited at Institutes of Health note that many blacks engage in more risky behavior on the average than other groups, ranging from drug use or unprotected sex, to more smoking. Blacks are also less likely to follow doctor’s instructions on the average. Google black AIDS rates for example and note how behavior plays a part. In other words the question of PERSONAL BEHAVIOR arises. But it is taboo to talk about THAT in many quarters. Few can deny that poverty plays a part. The poor have long had lesser health care than the rich. Poverty may indeed be the more relevant factor. Behavior may be another. Part of the problem is using “poor” as a synonym for “black”. Strange as this may sound, they are NOT the same thing. If we are going to solve black folks health problems, let’s keep our definitions clear, and put ALL the facts on the table in an empirical way, rather than the all too typical method of throwing out a statistic then gliding swiftly on to imply “racism”.
Hull sez:
There is an interesting website, modelminority.com (http://modelminority.com/)that addresses the issue that you raise. Your issue can be summed up as: “Why can’t blacks be more like them?†Of course, when we ask that question we fail to mention the staggering poverty among Southeast Asians, or the fact that the most successful Asian sub-groups came to this country with both business experience and usually college educations, or the fact that despite hard work, Asian Pacific Islanders still earn between 11-26% less than their white counterparts, even when their qualifications are equal.
A very selective presentation of the facts.
Most successful Asian sub-groups did NOT come to the US with college educations or business experience. Two of the most successful groups are Chinese and Japanese who have been coming to the US for over a century. Primarily of peasant or laboring background, they typically started at the bottom of the US economy, as farmers and laborers, primarily in the Western states like California. Over time, they rose. More recent immmigrants like Koreans are better educated, but they too start at the bottom of the ladder, with heavy concentration in the long hours retail sector, and without the language advantage of white or black Americans.
Hull’s mention of “Asian-Pacific Islanders” workers lumps together people like Japanese, Koreans or Chinese with less prosperous , less educatedSamoans, Tongans, folks from Guam etc. Nor is this lack of relative prosperity solely a problem on continental US soil. Many in the home islands of such immigrants are heavily dependent on government welfare subsidies. Samoa and Guam are cases in point. Why lump them together here, but separate them out earlier?
Hull is careful to pick out the most prosperous Asians for his first example, then selectively lumps in the least prosperous for his second. In any event, both examples fall flat.
=========================================
While superficially complimentary to Asian Americans, the real purpose and effect of this portrayal is to celebrate the status quo in race relations. First, by over-emphasizing Asian American success, it de-emphasizes the problems Asian Americans continue to face from racial discrimination in all areas of public and private life. Second, by misrepresenting Asian American success as proof that America provides equal opportunities for those who conform and work hard, it excuses American society from careful scrutiny on issues of race in general, and on the persistence of racism against Asian Americans in particular.†The model minority myth allows us to pretend that racism does not exist. Unfortunately, that is not yet the case.
Again dubious. Exactly how pointing out Asian success in some areas “excuses American society from careful scrutiny on issues of race” or allows us to “pretend that racism does not exist” is unclear. If anything, the success of some Asians has provoked even more careful scrutiny on the matter of race in some quarters. The federal government in recent years for example brought complaints against some colleges for discriminating against Asians. Despite better academic records, they were denied admission into certain colleges, while less qualified whites, blacks and hispanics were given slots. See for example: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/004079.html
If anything the “denial” of race is not so much on the part of conservatives but of liberals, who typically avoid mentioning Asian success since it throws their whole dubious “affirmative action” agenda into question. Asians are an embarrassment to liberals. They speak of scrutiny as regards race, but only if it is “politically correct” scrutiny involving “approved” victim groups.
When the same scrutiny highlights Asian success, or how Asians are being hurt by Affirmative Action, liberals typically are not very interested.
Hull sez:
There is an interesting website, modelminority.com (http://modelminority.com/)that addresses the issue that you raise. Your issue can be summed up as: “Why can’t blacks be more like them?†Of course, when we ask that question we fail to mention the staggering poverty among Southeast Asians, or the fact that the most successful Asian sub-groups came to this country with both business experience and usually college educations, or the fact that despite hard work, Asian Pacific Islanders still earn between 11-26% less than their white counterparts, even when their qualifications are equal.
A very selective presentation of the facts.
Most successful Asian sub-groups did NOT come to the US with college educations or business experience. Two of the most successful groups are Chinese and Japanese who have been coming to the US for over a century. Primarily of peasant or laboring background, they typically started at the bottom of the US economy, as farmers and laborers, primarily in the Western states like California. Over time, they rose. More recent immmigrants like Koreans are better educated, but they too start at the bottom of the ladder, with heavy concentration in the long hours retail sector, and without the language advantage of white or black Americans.
Hull’s mention of “Asian-Pacific Islanders” workers lumps together people like Japanese, Koreans or Chinese with less prosperous , less educatedSamoans, Tongans, folks from Guam etc. Nor is this lack of relative prosperity solely a problem on continental US soil. Many in the home islands of such immigrants are heavily dependent on government welfare subsidies. Samoa and Guam are cases in point. Why lump them together here, but separate them out earlier?
Hull is careful to pick out the most prosperous Asians for his first example, then selectively lumps in the least prosperous for his second. In any event, both examples fall flat.
=========================================
While superficially complimentary to Asian Americans, the real purpose and effect of this portrayal is to celebrate the status quo in race relations. First, by over-emphasizing Asian American success, it de-emphasizes the problems Asian Americans continue to face from racial discrimination in all areas of public and private life. Second, by misrepresenting Asian American success as proof that America provides equal opportunities for those who conform and work hard, it excuses American society from careful scrutiny on issues of race in general, and on the persistence of racism against Asian Americans in particular.†The model minority myth allows us to pretend that racism does not exist. Unfortunately, that is not yet the case.
Again dubious. Exactly how pointing out Asian success in some areas “excuses American society from careful scrutiny on issues of race” or allows us to “pretend that racism does not exist” is unclear. If anything, the success of some Asians has provoked even more careful scrutiny on the matter of race in some quarters. The federal government in recent years for example brought complaints against some colleges for discriminating against Asians. Despite better academic records, they were denied admission into certain colleges, while less qualified whites, blacks and hispanics were given slots. See for example: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/004079.html
If anything the “denial” of race is not so much on the part of conservatives but of liberals, who typically avoid mentioning Asian success since it throws their whole dubious “affirmative action” agenda into question. Asians are an embarrassment to liberals. They speak of scrutiny as regards race, but only if it is “politically correct” scrutiny involving “approved” victim groups.
Indeed when race scrutiny highlights Asian success, or how Asians are being hurt by Affirmative Action, liberals typically are not very interested.
Whoops. Double posting. Admin plese remove previous duplicate about Asian immigrants.
Now as regards what Hull sez on discrimination:
Often when people talk about discrimination in mortgage lending, there’s a question of how much of that is (based on) income and how much is based on race,†said Landis. The report, using multivariate regression statistical techniques, isolates the impact of race from that of income “in a very useful way,†he added. For example, home loan approval rates for whites and African Americans differed by 9.2 percentage points among applicants in the lowest income quartile. In the highest income quartile the approval rates for whites and African Americans differed by 20.7 percentage points. The more than 20 percent difference between whites and African Americans in the highest income group “is a pretty overwhelming gap, which we believe can’t be explained away by credit history,†said Blout.
All this only confirms what we all already know – loan gaps exist between races- the crunch question again, is why? The report discussed above shows a gap for people lumped in similar income categories, but such lumping tends to conceal and disguise important information with each category about people, information that lenders always take into account. Anyone can define an arbitrary range of say $30,000 to $50,000 per year and look at loan denial rates, but what is the detail of people INSIDE that range? Someone with a bankruptcy or a string of unpaid credit card debts will be received less favorably, even though they may fall within the “same” range. In other words, this report seems to suffer from a case of mishandled aggregates, lumping together people that SEEM similar, but in reality are quite different. The writer above says the data has been handled “in a very useful way”. Sure. Useful to liberals, to yet again, manipulate aggregates to insinuate “discrimination” rather than break down the details so we can get a more objective picture.
Liberals for example are quite happy to lump in East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) with islanders from the Pacific. After all they SEEM similar- they ain’t white, and some population strands of Chinese and Japanese for example, are found in the Pacific rim. But such an aggregate conceals important cultural and economic differences. Contrary to what some liberals seem to think, all people in the “Pacific Rim” are NOT alike. East Asians for example have long outperformed Pacific islanders in both their home islands and the continental US, a pattern that goes back for over a century.
——— Likewise when liberals talk about the pay “gap” between men and women, they are careful to lump all women together and insinuate “discrimination” and “chauvinism”, when it has long been known that marriage and childbearing are the most important factors affecting female pay (less working hours for example do mean less pay, hard as I know this is to believe:). Single women for example, with the same education, qualifications, hours per week, and in the same jobs have achieved pay parity with men long ago. But since this calls into question claims of “chauvinism” feminists prefer to duck the data by using conveniently selected aggregates, just as assorted liberals do on the matter of race.
I second Idiongo Udoh’s presentation of the way life is in Nigeria, which is applicable pretty much thru-out the rest of Africa. If you fail to make maximum use out of the education received, you will be kicked to the curb, scratch that, to the sewage ditch.
The first milestone will be to pass out of 6th grade by taking an all day comprehensive exam. Pass that and yopu get to go to 7th grade. Fail it and you can pretty much kiss any chance at a middle-class life goodbye.
If you should somehow mangae to get all the way to the West in your education before failing, you might as well never return home. To slink back home like the prodigal child, would be like wearing the scarlet letter “F” for failure, daily shaming your extended family, while the beggars snigger at you from the aforementioned ditches.
Shame is a powerful motivator for sucess and the soft bigotry of low expectations effectively destroys that. What ails the American lower class is a lack of shame — lots of it.
Enrique, as usual, a good fisking of race-card enablers.
Thanks Andy, but I am indebted to material already broken down by others like Thomas Sowell, and of course, good old Google.:)
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