Monday, April 24: Comments closed on this post. A defense lawyer wants to see the evidence. Read and discuss the latest news.
Update (4/23): Read Newsweek’s latest story about this case. It’s long and detailed enough to cover almost everything we know so far.
The emerging images pop right out at you: two strippers start dancing, the players get rowdy, the strippers get angry and start to leave, the players get angry and call them names as they head out, one of the strippers returns the taunts, the drunk accuser-stripper goes back in to retrieve her shoe (but may not have found it), second stripper is angry at the players and the drunk stripper, calls 911 to report name-calling, has someone else call 911 to report drunk woman in her car, cop arrives and sees drunk woman passed out, drunk woman is taken to a “substance abuse” center, realizes she may be in big trouble because of her past drunken criminal behavior (leading police on a car chase and trying to run down an officer), claims rape, is sent to hospital where exam reveals injuries “consistent” with rape, points the finger at three men at the party, media and black “leaders” go crazy and play up race angle, DA – in a fight for political survival – takes the race bait and vilifies 46 men, some of whom weren’t at the party, tests all but the black player, and despite no evidence charges two men with rape.
That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
And this is highly unlikely to have happened: “She [the stripper] identified Reade Seligmann, 20, with 100-percent certainty as the man who forced her to perform oral sex on him.”
Yet no DNA connected Seligmann or Finnerty to the accuser; no DNA under her nails from trying to fight them off. No connection also means their DNA wasn’t found on her, either. Don’t mean to be graphic, but if someone had forced me to…let’s just say the lab techs would have a sufficent sample of blood evidence to work with.
Also see this must-read comment.
—————————————————————————————————————————
Update (5:05 p.m.): This case is burning up the search engines, too. In the last hour, I’ve had over 800 unique visitors looking for information about this case. To give you some perspective, an “Insta-lanche” may generate about 500 visits per hour, depending on the time of day and how Glenn describes the post.
By the way, the wonderful e-mail I’m getting greatly outweighs the troll droppings and hate e-mail. Thank you.
—————————————————————————————————————————
First-time visitors: Please read the entire post before you comment. There’s a special message for you at the end.
Vulgarity and Hypocrisy
The usually acerbic Ann Coulter takes a gentler turn in her latest column, Lie Down With Strippers, Wake Up With Pleas. (If you’ve never read Coulter’s work before, let me assure that this column is gentle.) She writes about a concept as old as time, one based on reality (not to mention physics) but frowned upon in PC America: the connection between behavior and consequences:
However the Duke lacrosse rape case turns out, one lesson that absolutely will not be learned is this: You can severely reduce your chances of having a false accusation of rape leveled against you if you don’t hire strange women to come to your house and take their clothes off for money.
Also, you can severely reduce your chances of being raped if you do not go to strange men’s houses and take your clothes off for money. (Does anyone else detect a common thread here?)
…
Whenever a gun is used in a crime, there are never-ending news stories about how dangerous guns are. But these girls go out alone, late at night, drunk off their butts, and there’s nary a peep about the dangers of drunk women on their own in public. It’s their “right.”
Coulter writes about the old days when people were not afraid to call a thing by its name. Calling someone’s behavior vulgar or stupid is “judgmental,” which is used pejoratively. For the record, let me exercise my judgment: Throwing drunken parties is vulgar behavior. Taking off your clothes in front of a group of men — for free or for cash — is vulgar behavior. Being a fall-down drunk is vulgar behavior, something that I, unfortunately, have experienced.
Some haters (who still read this blog) tell me that I have no business judging people because I was once a “drunken slut.” Coulter writes:
In no area except morality would a sane person believe he can’t criticize something stupid because he’s done it. How about: If you’ve ever forgotten to fill up your car and run out of gas, you must forevermore defend a person’s right to ignore the gas gauge. Or if you’ve ever forgotten to wear a coat in cold weather and caught a cold, henceforth you are obliged to encourage others not to dress appropriately in the winter.
And God says:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
The Enemy and his minions will try anything to tear down God’s own. I’m here on this blog every day because God makes it so. And only he has the power to stop me, not my enemies. My Savior has assured me: “He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.”
Coulter continues: “But we’re all rotten sinners, incapable of redemption on our own. The liberal answer to sin is to say: I can never pay this back, so my argument will be I didn’t do anything wrong…The Christian answer is: I can never pay this back, but luckily that Christ fellow has already paid my debt.”
Amen, indeed!
Dirty Double Standards
A MURDERER in Durham gets a $50,000 bond, while accused rapists get a $400,000 bond. The DA would argue that the “wealthy” rapists were a flight risk and the teenaged murderer was not. Still, it stinks of the DA’s political motivations.
Gateway Pundit blogs about a heinous act and more double standards. Sickening!
The national media, mostly left-leaning, are on a mission to keep the smoldering embers of racial tension hot, overplaying white-on-black crime while underplaying black-on-white crime. Don’t take out your frustration on me; I didn’t start the fire.
Myths
In Fact and myth Duke it out, Kathleen Parker writes:
If [Jesse] Jackson were an honest dealer in the race card game, he’d have to mention that those ancient fears, though perhaps once justified, are no longer factually relevant. The U.S. Department of Justice’s 2003 National Crime Victimization Survey, which breaks down crime victims and perpetrators by race, indicates that the vast majority of violent crimes, including rape, are intra-racial. Blacks tend to attack blacks, and whites tend to attack whites.
There is no current trend of white men raping black women, in other words. In fact, though sample sizes are considered too small to draw any solid conclusions, the most recent figures show that among white rape victims, 15.5 percent of those rapes were perpetrated by blacks, while 0.0 percent of black victims were raped by white males. (Zero in this case is a rounded figure meaning that the total number of black women raped by white men is between 0 and half of 1 percent of the total.)
Not that anyone’s counting. But if we’re going to talk about race and crime, we may as well rely on facts rather than ancient memories that serve only to sensationalize and emotionalize what is already a painful episode in Southern history.
[Note (9:58 a.m.): Someone just e-mailed and said Parker is biased and the stats she cites have nothing to do with the Duke rape case. Neither do race and class, but they're headlining nonetheless. Dirty double standards. Besides, Parker was responding to Jackson's comments.]
Money
Jesse Jackson’s not the only one rutting for cash. Kim Roberts, the second stripper, wants to get hers, too: She contacted a PR firm via e-mail: “I’m worried about letting this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it and was wondering if you had any advice as to how to spin this to my advantage.”
Roberts likes money. So do I, but not enough to steal it. By the way, she says one of the men called her a “damn nigger.” If she does end up cashing in on this sordid mess, perhaps it will ease her pain.
New Evidence
Remember the fake fingernails the stripper broke fighting off her “attackers?” According to FOX News, a photo confirms that the nails were missing before the attack. But who cares about evidence? It’s irrelevant. This is a case about covetousness, greed, and class envy, not facts.
These are the photos released so far.
Meanwhile, a cab driver’s account of that night appears to match the timeline recreated by the accused.
Listen to MP3s of the first and second 911 calls. (Via Talk Left)
This isn’t new, but I wanted to remind you of ABC’s photo notes.
Idiots and Fools
Well, well, well. “Racist” white lacrosse players and Black Entertainment Television aren’t the only ones buying into and perpetuating stereotypes about “oversexed” black women. A troll with an unhealthy fixation on me using the real or phony name “Steve Fair” (or “Steve Vaughn”) who says he’s black, married and a father (!), left this troll dropping last night:
Name: Steve F. | E-mail: X@aol.com | URI: | IP: 205.188.116.199
One thing that comes through loud and clear about you LaShawn is that you DESPISE black men.
Have you found any white boys willing to take you any place but a roadside motel?
Have you met their parents?
For the record, he knows nothing about my personal life. I really hate to give him the attention he pants for, but I wanted to show you the kind of thing I sometimes wake up to. This idiot was banned from commenting last year, but his obsession seems to be growing. He tries to comment during the day from this IP: 67.151.138.118. Info:
CustName: PaeTec Communications
Address: 600 Willowbrook Office Park
City: Fairport
StateProv: NY
PostalCode: 14450
Country: US
RegDate: 2005-04-05
Updated: 2005-04-05
I need a reader-sleuth, VIA E-MAIL, not the comment section, to tell me if it’s possible to pinpoint an exact location based on this information, and how. If you need the full e-mail address, let me know.
Message to New Readers
If you’re wondering why I am biased against the accuser, wonder no more. I’ve stated in various Duke rape-related posts that if anything happened to the accuser, it happened before she arrived at the lacrosse party. Based on injuries found during a medical exam, I believe she was either raped earlier or engaged in, let’s say…aggressive acts. While no one knows what the DA has, although I suspect it’s nothing strong, the evidence I know about so far tends to support the players’ stories. Suspending judgment until all evidence is revealed is noble, especially if you’re a juror. I’m in the court of public opinion, however, and I’m allowed to express my opinion.
If the accused made up this whole thing, particularly with the intent to use the race angle to her advantage, she is perpetuating racial animosity. And false accusations of rape hurt all women. I’m angry, and on this blog, I will express that anger as often as I need to. If it turns out I’m wrong, I will say I’m wrong. I’ll even apologize to accuser in an open letter for doubting her story. If the allegations are true, it’s certainly not her fault the media and media-hungry grievance-shoppers turned her plight into a circus.
But I won’t delete or retract the opinions I formed based on what I knew at the time or on what I’ve learned about human nature.
I recommend that first-time visitors read the previous posts before commenting on this one. Reading a few pages of the archives wouldn’t hurt, either.
Related posts:
{ 8 trackbacks }
{ 106 comments }
La Shawn,
Great posting. You nailed all the important lessons from this whole “vulgar” event. Isn’t it amazing how sin has a domino effect? Amazing because we have already been warned but Satan and his minions has done a great job of blinding “humanist, self loving, man” that what he does is his business, he’s not hurting anyone, who are you to judge, I’m not hurting anyone (and on and on and on).
This shows that the consciences of man is becoming even more seared … (that’s a scary thing when man loses all ability to discern right from wrong because they’ve ignored for so long).
We can only pray that someone in this entire situation (or who is watching) learns what the real lesson here.
Thank you for never backing down
Being the father of 3 boys in a swiftly degenerating culture, I resolved while listening to Hewitt cover this the other evening to remember to cover, at each son’s appropriate age, the proper response the situation of finding yourself at a party where strippers have been hired. Get out of there! And go make a long phone call from your place of residence so there will be a good alibi.
It’s not good enough to decide you just won’t look or go into a different room. The virtue of purity is a higher motive for resisting this type of evil, which is merely “prostitution-lite”, than the fear of consequences, but there is an enormous practical advantage to practicing purity as well. A young man should always choose flight over fight in these instances.
Am I the only one who picked up on Kathleen Parkers bias?
We’re all biased, sweetie. You ought to re-read those juvenile e-mails you keep sending me. – Admin
I read Ann Coulters article on the LAX scandal before realizing she had written it. It started out pretty sensibly, but then degenerated pretty quickly into a misguided screed impling a link between Bill Clinton’s philandering and the liberals causing all this bad behavior. Anyone willing to pay honest attention should recognize and admit that neither party has a monopoly on bad bahavior. Livingston, Henry Hyde, Newt Gingrinch and Rudy Guiliani jump to mind as prominant republicans who diddled around. And anyone who reads the paper can see all ths corruption and distain for the rule of law that infects our governemnt- the Abramof scandal , Tom Delay’s troubles, and all the revelations that Bush knew he was lying to the American people all along about the so-called mobile biochemical units, the yellowcake, and even the move to leak information to discredit Ambassador wIlson (a process that ended in the outing of a covert CIA agent). not to mention running an end round the Geneva Convention and torturing prisoners. so much for bringing dignity back to the White House.
People of principle should judge an action by whether or not it conforms to their values, not just whether it was committed by your team or the other guys. And it is in this way that zealots like Ann Coulter lose touch with reality and reasonableness.
As for pinning for the good old days. Cooler heads can tell you the world world is always said to be going to hell in a handbasket. That while the world is changing adn may be rawer in some ways, it is actually a fairer place, more eqalitarian. Would blacks really want to go back to the 1950s? the 1850s? were those the good old days for blacks in America? Do women want to go back to a time when they couldn’t even vote? Or were excluded from many jobs. We only have to go back a few decades to find a time when segragation was institutionalized, and women were barred from most of the top universities (e.g. Columbia College/Coumbia University went co-ed in 1983, Harvard 1972). Let’s not get carried away in romanticizing the way things were.
Wash, DC
La Shawn,
I wish there were more people like you dissescting the facts and telling the truth. While I am not saying the “victim” is lying or telling the truth nor the “suspects” doing the same (every deserves a day in court), I am bothered by the fact that race was automatically attahced to this without anyone knowing anything from the very start. Ironically, I think a racist comment(s) was made at said party and it escalated from there, but I do not think racism has anything to do with this case at all. I digress from this because as I have said, I cannot pass any judgement until I know more facts.
I would like to address another issue related to this case. Why are we paying the [deleted ] Jackie Wagstaff to go camping down near Duke during this case when she has a job to do before her term with the Board of Education is over in June? If nothing else, this disgusts me more than anything. She is supposed to be a public servant and she is doing anything but. If I were to shirk my duties to go be an “activist” during my work hours, I would be fired. Jackie Wagstaff has done nothing productive in her public servitude and yet we wonder why Durham continues to struggle with its image and climb to get away from that image. She epitomizes racism to its vey core. And she all does this in the taxpayers dime.
“New Evidence Remember the fake fingernails the stripper broke fighting off her “attackers?†According to FOX News, a photo confirms that the nails were missing before the attack. But who cares about evidence? It’s irrelevant. This is a case about covetousness, greed, and class envy, not facts.”
Just thought I would point this out again. We do not know what time the attack occurred. The prosecution has not laid out it case. The defense has showed photos from around 11 pm with no strippers and around 12:03 am with strippers. According to the search warrant, page 3:
“The victim arrived at the residence and joined the other female dancer around 11:30 pm….”
Without a timeline from the prosecution, how can you have an alibi?
What happened between 11:30 pm and 12:00 am?
Well, according to the photos time stamps, the strippers were “dancing” around midnight:
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4091290
Now I can’t speak for all women, but if I were raped between 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m., I doubt I’d be in the mood to dance at 12:00 a.m.
#4-not a lax fan, You might want to read the following by La Shawn titled “Why I Wouldn’t Vote For Newt Gingrich”
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2005/01/17/why
BTW. Having the freedom to sell yourself into slavery or to vote for fools is not exactly human advancement.
“Now I can’t speak for all women, but if I were raped between 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m., I doubt I’d be in the mood to dance at 12:00 a.m.”
That is interesting, but if you were raped between 12:10 am and 12:20 am, would you be dancing at 12:30 am. If you were raped before you arrived, would be dancing?
It is fine to say I do not believe her, but it not possible to saying things happened before she arrived and not take into account that she claimed to have arrived at 11:30 pm not 12:00 am.
Ellen, as I’ve stated time and again, I don’t know what happened, but based on what I know so far, the accuser’s story doesn’t add up. The DA may have a BOMBSHELL, for all we know. For his sake, he’d better.
You and I going back and forth on this won’t clear up the matter either way. We obviously see things differently, which is fine with me. It keeps life…interesting.
Dear La Shawn,
Your blog post on this terrible incident is absolutely excellent! You have covered all the bases thoroughly and honestly. You have included the most important part, too. That is, the message of the gospel which our morally depraved culture so desperately needs at this time.
I’m so glad when I read blogs like yours and Michele Malkin’s because both of you continue to show much courage in the face of mockers and haters.
The Lord is most likely looking down from heaven and whispering in your ear, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
What bothers the hell out of me is that this … can scream “rape” and be protected from the media frenzy, yet the duke players are dragged through the mud and the coach is forced to resign.
What about innocence until proven guilty? Our media has already placed judgement on these boys!
The prosecution first stated that “DNA evidence will prove the rape occurred”, but when the FBI labs couldn’t find any related DNA evidence belonging to the players, the prosecution is getting more tests done at a “private” lab? What makes this “private” lab more reliable than the FBI’s??
If a rape occurred, then so be it, and let the punishment come. But until it’s proven in the court of law, our media should be digging for dirt on this tramp to even out the negative judgements made against these boys. We don’t need Al Sharpton on national TV saying things like, “Fantasizing about black women goes back to days of slavery, and though it’s not quite illegal…”.
Maybe it’s just me, but these boys needs the benefit of the doubt. They’re forced to wear this scarlet letter for life, simply because of the racially-charged claims of a …? Not quite fair, to me. What’s that? A stripper’s not a whore? Now you’re just splitting hairs
Love ya, La Shawn!
From ABCNEWS:
“2nd Duke Stripper Didn’t See Alleged Rape”
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/LegalCenter/wireStory?id=1869877
The second stripper “Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 eight days after the party on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.”
Money, money, money, money, money… MONEY!
La Shawn there is really nothing to go back and forth on. We both agree that we do not have any idea what happen. We both agree her behavior is odd.
I just think it is strange to have an alibi when no one has stated what time the crime occurred. The photo evidence is consistent with the victim’s statement. She claimed she arrived at the house at 11:30 pm. She claimed she was assaulted for 30 minutes. Photos show her injured at 12:03 am.
The photos are not a defense at all regarding the victim’s injuries or lost fake nails.
Perhaps it is defense that she performed rather than leave. However, her search warrant statement does not claim that she fled upon being raped. I just do see any inconsistency regarding her statement and the photos. The photos demonstrate her odd behavior.
Of course, from my point of view all of her behavior is odd. I think it is odd to strip in house full of men, I also think it is odd to have sex for money. It seemed odd to me that a prostitute could be raped. I did discuss that matter with my husband; he said a prostitute is raped if you force him or her to perform a service he or she did not agree to perform. I really have no idea, and I do not want to have any idea. I always thought a prostitute was raped if you did not pay, but in my mind that just seemed to be theft.
A prostitute can be raped just as a woman can be raped by her husband.
No kidding? I didn’t know that. (sarcasm off) – Admin
It doesn’t take much of a stretch to understand the timeline. The accuser arrived at 11:30pm. She and her partner began to dance. Some of the partiers made rude comments about using a broomstick and placing it in an uncomfortable position. At this point the dancers started to leave. This is also the time when some of the partiers apparently used the N word. The girls were somehow convinced to return to the party, and THIS is when they were separated and the accuser claims the rape happened. Also the LAX player called a cab sometime between 12:00am and 12:15am. When the cabbie arrived he said that he saw the girls outside the house and upset. This could be when the girls left for good, but is more likely the tiff after which they returned to the party. THis is logical because the second dancer stated that the accuser was all but incapacitatedly drunk or high when they finally left for the night.
It’s not strange at all to retrace your steps and remember where you were if you’re accused of rape. Anyone who doesn’t do so is an idiot.
Regardless of what the DA has, the “crime” had to occur during a certain window. His timeline can’t be that different from the defense’s.
Evidence doesn’t show, with 100 percent certaintly, that someone did or didn’t do something. Rarely are criminal acts caught on tape for all to see. But the importance of evidence is what it tends to show. The photos don’t prove that the players didn’t rape her, but they tend to show that the woman’s fingernails were broken and she appeared injured at a certain time. That casts doubt on her version of events.
Both sides will build their cases based on the accumulated evidence. So far, we’ve seen some of the defense’s evidence and none from the DA. If the jurors tend to believe the DA’s evidence and he proves his case beyond a reasonable doubt, they’ll likely find the guys guilty. If those photos cast reasonable doubt that the woman was raped, the players will be set free. Based on what I know at this point, there is more than a reasonable doubt. But, as I said, both sides will have to build their respective cases.
I am glad that I was raised differently from a lot of people. I was always taught that how you treat someone is reflective upon your character and not theirs. If a woman decides that she wants to strip and prostitute herself for a living then I am justified in calling her a stripper or a prostitute because that is what she does. I am not justified in call her a hoe because that is just vulgar and mean. I think a lot of the comments on both sides of the issue show just how vulgar and sick some people are.
Last Sunday morning, I listened to Jessie Jackson’s radio show and he was apoplectic over the fact that certain Duke la crosse players had been caught urinating in public. (I guess he has never watched the drunks perform on the streets of the nation’s capitol.) He also made it clear that the stripper is a mother and was in the Navy and is one of God’s children. (I am not sure just how the Reverend draws a distinction between urinating in public and being a paid stripper when it comes to being one of God’s children.)
One stripper is screaming about the “N” word, which we all know neutralizes murder and in the current case with the Duke la crosse team may be the more serious charge.
The second stripper has called a PR firm to cash in on her 15 seconds of fame. Maybe she should sell the movie rights to Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover and Cynthia McKinney. They could get Susan Sarandon to play her in black face.
If the DA does get a conviction out of this, I doubt that the Duke students will turn out in the streets rioting and beating a truck driver nearly to death.
However, with all the racist gasoline being spewed on the flames, if the charged players are not convicted who knows what the rent-a-mob jokers will do.
The race pimps are out in force and they have the blackmail of inciting their mob as a potent weapon. Stay tuned.
Hmm. Do you suppose Nifong told the police to snoop on Roberts for parole violations in the hope of getting leverage over her to influence her testimony or her press statements in the (for him) critical run-up to the DA election contest next month?
Suspicious SOB that I am, I’m also wondering whether Nifong told the accuser that Colin whatshisname had a police record before she ID’ed him as one of the alleged assailants.
La Shawn,
I love this blog…thanks for standing strong and making intelligent comments. Even if I didn’t agree with your point of view, one can’t help but respect the way in which you state your case. Anyway, just wanted to point out in your latest post: “If those photos cast reasonable doubt that the woman was raped, the players will be set free.”
I think you meant “wasn’t” raped right?
B
Thanks for the sharp eye, Brandi.
– Admin
I meant during the performance of her job. How would you define rape? I am not writing about some breaking in to her home at night, or any other type of attack. How do you prove in court that I was raped by my client? How do you force someone to have sex when they have agreed to have sex.
Come on you know what I meant. Don’t disappoint me.
What’s interesting is that the DA started to try the case in the press. The defense responded, taking him to the cleaners, and he has stopped talking to the media.
Lesson 1 to an apparently inexperienced prosecutor (until recently he was mostly trying traffic cases, not major crimes) facing an election: kids whose parents work for major financial firms in NYC and pull in millions a year will have ridiculously tough lawyers. Squads of them. This is not your typical local defense lawyer or plucky PD.
Lesson 2: if you want things to go smoothly, beyond not trying the case in the press, don’t get a ridiculously high bail. Once parents have to put up their house as well as kicking in large amounts of money to start the defense they are going to be out for blood and as pleasant as cornered wolverines. Any serious charge is going to bring out natural protective instincts in parents. You want to be as gentle as possible and act appropriately so that they will take a somewhat open mind on the case. They’ll be talking with their kids alot and if they’re not rendered implacably hostile they may notice inconsistencies and pressure for a plea deal.
Lesson 3: Using scratches visible in photos taken 2 weeks after an event is just bad work, especially given the nature of lacrosse. All they need is a few girls to testify that they made the scratches or saw when the scratches appeared (before or several days to a week after the party).
To me it looks like Nifong got himself well out on a thin limb and has started to saw himself off. Understandable from looking at local politics, but he really didn’t consider that he wasn’t just dealing with local issues in this. He may Spitzer it out though, combining national opprobium and court room failure with local political success. If he’s screwed it up as badly as some of us believe, any local political victory will only be tactical, once the civil suits come crashing down on the police and prosecutors.
re #8
Ralph- to clarify, I wasn’t refeering to Lashawn- on the contrary I’ve found her blog to be intelligence and reasonable, even if I don’t consider myself either a conservative or a organized-religion christian (despite my Cathlolic grade-shool and college education). I was referring to Ann Coulter and other of her ilk who see the world in an us vs them prism, which clouds their ability to evaluate people and events fairly in regards to principles. The lack of accountabity is a real problem in our current government. We have a president that brags that he never vetos anything, and a congress that would stand with the president no matter what, until his approval rating hit the skids and they suddenly decided they don’t want to be in his shadow. That’s not character, that political expediency and opportunism.
From what I’ve seen of her blog, I am not at all surprised Lashawn would turn away from a ‘fellow conservative’ based on her values. Just as she hasn’t been afraid to challenge the rush to judgement in the Duke lacrosse case, even though many think that blacks and/or women should automatically take a particular ’side’ regardless of the facts.
1. Comment by Matty The Dude — 04.21.06 @ 11:22 am
We can of course, weave all types of scenarios. I was just pointing out that the photos in question do not cover the time period when she claims to have arrived. If she was dancing between 11:30 pm and 12:03 am why not show the pictures. They have pictures at 11:03 pm showing the young men drinking and waiting for the strippers. Then they have pictures at 12:03 am showing her injured, and claim she was injured when she arrived. This argues that she arrived at 12:00 am and not at 11:30 pm. That is fine I have no idea, when she actually arrived. I was just writing that right now we do not have any information based on the photos to say hey she lying.
The photos do not prove she was injured before she arrived as the defense and media have asserted; they just show she was injured before 12:03 am.
#22 Ellen asks about defining rape, particularly when a sex professional is involved.
Feminist Catherine MacKinnon has written: “Penetrative intercourse is, by its nature, violent. But I’m not saying that sex must be rape. What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That’s my point.”
MacKinnon is falsely accused of having said that “All sex is rape.”
If you adopt MacKinnon’s definition, then if a prostitute agreed to sex with every other man in the line-up and it turned out that one of the men skipped over also had sex with the prostitution, that one instance would be rape.
Such is the tangled web we weave when perfectly clear concepts of good and evil get thrown into the liberal intellectual blender and come out upside down.
We must be clear, however. A hired stripper is not contracting for unwanted sex. But that does not diminish the fact that she is using her body in a stupid, demeaning and dangerous way. She should at least get to wear an idiot crown for awhile and be barred from occupation day at her kid’s school.
#24, Sorry.
La Shawn is so consistent with the “behavior and consequences” theme/fact/reality, that I become overly defensive.
I heard Newt on national radio one day with the discussion by the host going in the direction of a possible run for the Presidency. I was yelling at the radio, “NO! We don’t need or want you!” Within a few days, La Shawn posted her view on Newt. It expressed how I thought and felt about him.
I want those who claim to represent certain standards to at least make an effort to live by them. Whatever one person thinks should be done to another under certain circumstances, the same should be applied to all.
To beat the drum that others have beat over and over, where were the feminist groups and civil rights groups when Bill Clinton was accused of rape?
Just want to add to some of the statistics so commonly thrown around about black males (of which I am one) raping white women.
LESS than 10% of all rapes are interracial. Yet, 50% of ALL overturned rape convictions involve black men convicted of raping white women. Also, studies have shown that rape victims of all races are MUCH more likely to report a rape if the perpetrator is black. Yes, even black women are less likely to report being raped by a white man than by a black man. And, studies have shown that a black man accused of raping a white woman is much more likely to be convicted than a black man accused of raping a black woman or a white man accused of raping anyone.
One of the two main reasons for false rape accusations is shame. Despite what anyone might think, it is still widely considered taboo for white women to have sex with black men. The shame brought on by such taboo tends to promote false rape accusations and remember that most cases of rape involve close acquaintances.
If one runs a google search on the quoted terms “rape” “myth” “black men” and “white women”, you will see many citing studies that indicate that there is not significant difference between black men and white men with regards to interracial rape numbers and that the raw number size for white men raping women of color may be higher than black men raping white women.
Black men are not out there stalking a victimizing white women in mass as people try to portray. White women are overwhelmingly more likely to be raped by white men.
I don’t recall anyone on this blog claiming that black men are “stalking a victimizing white women in mass [did you mean en masse?].” About the “50% of ALL…” stat, I guess it’s suppose to show that black-on-white rape is NOT more common than white-on-black rape. But “50%” certainly does LOOK impressive. There’s smoke but no fire. Regarding the “raw number size” remark, you ought to keep in mind that we’re talking about proportions. If black men are only 7 percent of the population but commit even 20 percent, let alone half, of violent crimes in the U.S., that’s bad any way you slice it, Shade, no matter what the stats for white men are. Regarding the taboo issue, no comment – Admin
The 2nd dancer got take care of her OOW kid, what can yall expect?
*smile*
This is case is going down like uhhhhh….forget it!
Hey, I want to clarify something on this thread, the only times I have seen the accuser as arriving at the house is 30 minutes after the other stripper. That would put her at the house at the latest of 11:45. Not 11:30…lets not play games with the timelines here. Minutes are important hre and it seems that some are playing with the facts here.
Ellen, you raise very good points. I want to be very clear that I obviously don’t know what happened that night either and I am glad that there are intelligent people out there who disagree with me and are willing to have constructive conversation on the topic. I am saying all this because it looks like you are getting ganged up on a little bit in here due to your minority opinion.
The “50%” statement was made regarding all OVERTURNED rape convictions. Black on white rape makes up less than 4% of total rapes whereas OVERTURNED black on white rape convictions make up 50% of such overturnings.
This seems to indicate that the tendency for white women to falsely accuse black men of raping them is relatively high and plays a role in the rate of black men being convicted of raping white women. Add to this the greater chances of being convicted when accused and the greater tendency to report rape by a black man, and we get a somewhat different picture.
Not necessarily. Cases are overturned on technicalities, too. If a significant slice of that “50%” was overturned based on DNA, then might have something. Source? – Admin
>>If a woman decides that she wants to strip and prostitute herself for a living then I am justified in calling her a stripper or a prostitute because that is what she does. I am not justified in call her a hoe because that is just vulgar and mean.>>
“hoe” = street slang for whore. “prostitute” = whore, in my dictionary. So…why is calling someone who is a prositute (leaving out stripper, which is not necessarily prostitution though pretty darn close) a “hoe” vulgar and mean, but calling the same person a prostitute is not? Please explain the difference, if you would.
For the record, fly-by, anonymous commenter, I believed Kobe Bryant’s version of the story from the beginning. His name is spelled “Kobe,” by the name, not “Koby.” – Admin
La Shawn,
TOTALLY OFF TOPIC but I know whenever you make a posting that points out the evils of race baiting and the sexual immorality in the US, you end up bringing some critters out of the wood work. I thought you might need a laugh… just listen to Rush’s translation of the Hu speech from yesterday. It is hilarious.
Heard it. It was funny.
– Admin
It says that 88% of all overturned rape convictions are based on DNA. I doubt that the rate of the “50%” is much different. Here are some links.
http://home.law.uiuc.edu/~pjkeenan/documents/Gross-exonerations.pdf
http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=N5WMK6GCWP399GEPXH2L1CGQ738PATV8&ID=76585
http://truthinjustice.org/exoneration-study.htm
http://www.police.ufl.edu/csd/community_safetytips_daterape.htm
It says 88 percent of the rape cases in the study were overturned. I’m not sure why you’re citing the last link. – Admin
Great posting La Shawn! I’m just waiting to see this whole mess blow up in Nifong’s face. Kim Roberts’ change of story will do wonders for the case. It’s dumbfounding how the DA is pressing on in the face of such inconsistency. The sad thing is that these boys will always be tainted by this (and the university as well) regardless of their innocence.
Shade, in the first study you cite, it reads on page 4:
“Cross-racial misidentification is a special danger. About 50% of the exonerated rape defendants are black men misidentified by white victims, but only 10% or less of all rapes involve black perpetrators and white victims. As a result, black men are greatly overrepresented among defendants falsely convicted and exonerated for rape.â€
First, cross-racial identification is more difficult than same-race ID. Differentiating faces among our own race is easier for all races; the other way around, not so easy. If the study is valid, the 50 percent exoneration figure sounds OK on its face, but not because white women are falsely accusing black perpetrators, as you stated. Cross-racial misidentification and falsely crying “Rape†are two different things.
Did you read the study, or just the article?
Incidentally, that 88 percent of the rapes in the study were exonerated based on DNA evidence lend support to the alleged rapists’ story in this Duke rape fiasco. Thanks for digging up the study. It will be helpful to be in subsequent posts. The first round of tests turned up no match. I read that there is a second round of testing underway. Since we don’t know what they’re testing and who they’re testing, we have to play the waiting game.
Second, it should be expected that black men would be overrepresented in false conviction and exonerations if black-on-white rape is more common that white-on-black.
I can’t get to the second study, and unless you paid for it, neither could you. So why link to it? What point was it suppose to support/challenge?
I have no idea why you cited the last study.
I suspect you’re making assertions first and looking for sources second. Not a crime, but make sure you read and cite relevant info. It saves time.
“prostitute†= whore, in my dictionary.
In most standard dictionaries, it is specified as an offensive term whereas “prostitute” is not.
Excellent commentary. The world is so upside down that the good are seen as evil and the evil is seen as acceptable. Personal Responsibility! Raped or not… she has to take personal responsibility for placing herself in that situation. I for one am not sympathetic to her plight. If she was raped, then the players need to answer to the law. But as a Man of African heritage, a Christian, and a law enforcement officer, I seen that one has to answer for ones “choices”, either to their family- community, God or the law. Therefore never place yourself in a situation where your only option is to make a “bad” choice! Peace Lashawn.
If you want to deal with strippers go to a club.
The business owner will have an incentive to protect the customer and the dancer.
That is how Nobel Prize Winner Richard Feynman dealt with the “problem”.
Good points but note that the 50% ratio is 50% of all exonerations, not 50% of exonerations of interacial rape convictions. There are similar raw numbers with regards to interacial rapes involving black perps and white perps. Being that it is more difficult to identify someone not of you race, those black women should be misidentifying white perps similarly. But the raw number of black males being misidentified by white females seems to dwarf the raw numbers of white males misidentified by black females despite the raw number similarities. The other 50% of exonerated rape convicts are in all likelihood mostly same race rape convictions.
I posted the second link because it gives a quick summary of the study and its conclusion that all women are much more likely to report rape if the the perp is black. But I understand that the data is not present for you to analyze unless you pay.
And I did base my original statements on what I found over the net. I just went back to search for links after you requested it.
One more comment, and I’ll let other commenters deal with this. No clue as to why you made the “note.” Re: rates of misidentification. The important point is that whatever rate white women are misindentifying their black rapist, they’re certain about the race: black. And the “dwarf” issue doesn’t show or prove anything nefarious on the accusers’ part. It goes to the issue of who commits the most crimes, proportionate to their percentage of the population, against whom. – Admin
Best stip club I ever went to was run by a former Christian Minister.
The customers and dancers were always treated with respect.
The Minister’s name was Frank Gay and the club was the Marquee just outside of Rockford, Illinois.
The key is treating every one you come in contact with in a respectful way. As long as they respond similarly.
The authorities closed Frank’s and now all that are left are the sleaze establishments. Not good for the customers. Not good for the dancers.
Lashawn: I only recently started reading your blog regularly and I must say, you are brilliant and incisive to an unusual degree. Whatever demons you have dealt with in the past, they have not affected even slightly that excellent mind of yours. In point of fact, you are one of the very few people of the lawyer-persuasion that I actually respect – and I’m a paralegal so I know a lot of lawyers!
Thank you for your common sense approach to this incendiary issue. When there are as many inconsistencies being published on this topic, nobody should be rushing to judgment. And, shame on Niphong for blackening these young mens’ reputations (probably for the rest of their lives)on what appears to be fairly inconclusive evidence and the existence of documented alibis. That is the dangerous thing about these “prosecutions via news media” – the press walks away with their ratings or higher sales of their “rags”, the victim may not get justice and those falsely accused are destroyed in the minds of the public pretty conclusively.
BTW Republican’s who are so into dealing with nature and the way things really work (which is why I’m a libertarian – and not a member of the Party) are not dealing well with reality here.
Men (at least a significant number of them) like looking at naked women. This is a fact of nature. Also a fact of Las Vegas.
So the question then becomes how do we deal responsibly with this fact of nature?
First off – if we want fewer prostitutes/strippers in the world we are going to have to do more about childhood sexual abuse. That is where it starts.
Same deal for drug abuse. The drugs are not the problem. They are the result of the problem.
Heroin
So as much as I think the accuser is not telling the truth, I do have sympathy for her. She must have had it hard to wind up in the position she did.
So the deal is: why are Republicans always going after the symptoms (i.e. the war on drug users) instead of dealing with root causes: child abuse?
In fact our war with the Islamic Imperialists may have at its root child abuse – as well as our war with Germany in the ’40s.
The Origins of Islamic Rage. I’m a root cause kind of guy. Not that we don’t have to fight this war. We do. However, fighting will not end it. Changing how children are raised will. It is going to be a long slog.
BTW Cosby is right. Black child rearing practices are at the root of the failure of some segments of the black community. Just not entirely in the way he thinks.
Why NCLB can’t work.
>>In most standard dictionaries, it is specified as an offensive term whereas “prostitute†is not>>
Ok…Why do you suppose that is? Do you detect any nuances that indicates a difference between the two? If not, I’ll just chalk it up to the usual tendency for insulting words to be one syllable even if not of only 4 letters…
La Shawn:
You suggest double standards (alleged murderer gets $50K bond, alledged rapists get $400K bond). A realistic assesment would recognise that the bond has to be in some way related to a person’s wealth. A rich man (the Max Factor heir?) can write off a substantial bond and not be greatly affected by the loss, so the bond does not act as much of a constraint on his actions. The average employed homeowner could raise $50K, but would probably have to remortgage his house to do so. Losing $50K will have a much bigger impact on him than losing a million dollars had on Andrew Luster.
Suek
The reason is that society has established the word as such. Think of it like this. “Making love” is often used to indicate something that the “F” word is commonly used to indicate. The former generally denotes something quite a bit more tender than the latter.
suek,
You got it right. Prostitute is the PC term for whore (makes one feel better and justify in ones mind there is a difference)
La Shawn, can you help me clear up this (very small) point in my mind?
The police say there were 4 fake fingernails found in the bathroom. The photos say she had fingernails missing when she was dancing or when she arrived.
Is the thought that she found she was missing fingernails, retired to the bathroom and removed the rest herself?
Vis a vis the prostitute/whore imbroglio: why not call the stripper an “ecdysiast”?
We could then say, respectfully, that these two ladies were applying their ecdysiast talents and skills. It sound so much better then the way I think about it: Two sluts stripping for money.
The real victims in this whole sad episode are the “public opinion convicted” lacrosse players. Now that their names have been trashed by the media, and their reputations are now destroyed beyond repair. Where is justice for them? At this point, it seems the only real crime was underage drinking. It also looks like the lacrosse coach has been used as the sacrificial lamb. Yet another victim of a stripper’s lie. Seeing that most blacks support the stripper, I wonder do they consider the black lacrosse player’s
father a “sellout” for supporting the team and not the “alleged” victim?
Question for the legal gurus. WHAT IF…and I know it’s a stretch kids , she is indeed lying…Is there any penalty for say, defamation of not only the lacrosse players, but their families, or the wrongful firing of the lacrosse coach, or the cancellation of a lacrosse season that the seniors will never get the opportunity to play (maybe it doesn’t sound like a big deal to those who never played college athletics, but imagine working your entire life at anything, not just sports and having it stripped (no pun intended) away), or the jobs that some of the seniors have gotten after their graduation in spring that have purportedly been rescinded, or the use of taxpayers $ to prosecute the case? Oh, and do the parents that posted the $400k ($800k TOTAL) get their money back? I know the media has lead America to believe that all lacrosse players are rich, white and privileged, but I’d like to state for the record- not all of us are rich, white and privileged. I come from middle class town, public schooled, and was only able to attend college because I was granted an athletic scholarship. AND I guarantee you, not all of the men on that Duke lax team are “rich” either. Luckily the 2 kids that were indicted happened to come from wealthier families, because god forbid they couldn’t post bail what would happen to them in jail given the media already found them guilty of raping a black woman!!!! Now, clearly I don’t know what happened there…but given the recent facts and the daily loss of credibility of the story, and the second stripper, the DA, the Durham Police, I am pondering the “WHAT IF” she is lying senario…what happens to her?
Ms. Barber, the guy you posted on that said those remarks about you not liking black guys and blah blah about white guys using you should be ashamed. It’s not often anymore a woman conducts herself with such dignity and reason. As such, will you marry me? Keep up the great column.
Steve F. it’s probably because you are annoying and the blog is too polite. Epithets occur in the blog world when reason fails the poster and only a frothing mouth occurs. In some other forms it’s called moonbating, malignant narcissism, or BDS. sorry to hear you are suffering.
Now can a stripper be a good Christian? I think so. I know so. Stripping is essentially an art form with tinges of sex. (Just think of those pastors members get crushes on.) And it pays really well. However depending on the environment it can lead to prostitution(which is OK with me) and drugs(not OK). I still think if she came from an escort service she was there to do more than dance. But the 5 guy lie changed all the dynamics. Where was her bouncer? Negotiating with 40 duke drunks underage is probably not a pleasant experience. She needs to be better at her business. It’s also bad to get wasted and dance like that, but she is probably used to it at her club. Broken fingernails before the dancing would suggest she has already fought with someone.
I actually fail to see how she remembers anyone in the state she was in. As for the police I would be checking out the women and drug dealers that hang close to the team. Not all of these players are good citizens.
Between news releases I play snood.com
LaShawn, came to your site via Shmaltz und Grieben, and I really applaud what you’ve written. It is thoughtful, honest and thorough–more than I can say for much of the way the MSM is covering this story.
I’m biased though because I agree with you, for all of the reasons you cite, plus a few of my own. I’ve examined the time line and some of the more “unseemly” details of her accusations, and if you stop and think about it (something the MSM will never do–too lazy), what would have to have happened for her accusations to be true is nothing short of the fastest, cleanest, most carefully choreographed rape conspiracy in history!
We are supposed to believe that 43 guys are covering for 3, or that no one else at the party had to pee for 30 minutes or if they did, that they didn’t hear someone being brutally attacked on the other side of the door they were pounding on (or that they all peed outside on the lawn during that time period).
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. How plausible is it that three guys needed only 30 minutes to coerce her into a bathroom, subdue her, don condoms, take turns holding her down, rape and sodomize her and clean up sufficiently that not one stitch of DNA evidence is found on her person?
Forget whether her story is true, is it even POSSIBLE? I for one think it is not, photos, receipts and bruises aside, it just seems highly unlikely that it all happened the way she said it did.
Sorry to be so graphic, but it seems to me this is an angle few are talking about, so I had to wonder if anyone was even thinking about it. For the players’ sakes, I hope their defense counsel is, and I hope they aren’t too shy to ask her to explain in front of a jury exactly how this all went down (no pun intended).
Well, as Ms.Parker and others have shown us, we are not sure precisely how much racism is still around, nor how active it is. I am pretty certain it’s less than Jesse Jackson would have us believe. Nevertheless, as someone who has opposed racism for roughly forty years, give or take, I am concerned at the possible effect of “crying wolf” on our efforts. No, we do not have all the facts, but the facts we do have are leaning in the direction of acquittal. I feel sorrow for the boys, for their apparently messed up accuser, but I’m just beyond sorrow for what this is doing in the wider world.
Yours in Christ,
Michael
The only rational reason to believe that the alleged victim was raped and sodomized is to believe that she was drugged at the party. That could account for her bizzare behavior during and afterwards. However, if she was drugged, there must be some evidence of that in medical tests or other evidence, such as drugs found in the possession of the accused.
It is not rational to believe that ALL of the members of the team and their families and friends, which must in total number in the 100’s, are covering up for the accused. If the rape did occur, somebody in the 100’s of people closely associated with this case would know that the rape occurred and would have come forward and confessed or told the truth. To believe that all of these people are hiding the truth is to believe that we are one sick society. I just can’t buy it.
Is it not possible that the “injuries” to the accuser could have occurred consensually BEFORE she appeared at the house?
Jd–you’re incorrect. Strippings is supplying visual adultery if a man is married or engaging in visual sex with a single man. It is NOT in line with the Gospels, particularly the bit where Jesus describes looking at another woman lustfully as adulterous.
Also, while stripping and drugs may begin with child abuse, everyone has a choice whether or not to go down that path. The government has every single right to keep folks from drug running–even if they were abused–and obviously stripping isn’t against the law, so the government doesn’t care.
Stripping isn’t art, it’s selling sex. No one “deserves” to be raped, but at the same time, you shouldn’t be surprised that when you sell sex, some men will expect and get it.
There’s also the VERY VERY plausible reality that she was hurt, consensually or no, earlier in the night and showed up at the Duke party, then realized she could get a boatload of cash by accusing those players. She could then give the money to her two kids (their two fathers being unlikely to set them up for life like a lawsuit settlement would) and indulge in more alcohol, drugs, and stealing of police cars. She probably didn’t realize they’d have good lawyers.
I, for one, think past convictions should absolutely apply in this case.
And whether or not it’s PC, I am going to teach my girls that you won’t be treated as a lady unless you act like one, and for the boys, you won’t be treated like a gentleman unless you act like one. If you don’t act like a lady, you are likely to find yourself in a rape-able situation. If you don’t act like a gentleman, you may find some hoochie slapping you with a lawsuit someday. This lesson might have been learned by Bill Clinton, but wasn’t.
“Best stip (sic) club I ever went to was run by a former Christian Minister.”
That’s a life change I’d like to know more about.
“Now can a stripper be a good Christian? I think so. I know so. Stripping is essentially an art form with tinges of sex. (Just think of those pastors members get crushes on.)” (HUH??)
Perhaps there are those “consumers” of such art that regard it purely as an art form…they are the same consumers who read Penthouse “just for the articles.”
And perhaps you’d regard porngraphy as merely a form of fiction or videography, but it is difficult for me to accept that any form of art whose principal purpose is the raising (pardon the pun) of prurient interest can be engaged in by a true Christian of any denomination.
I’d have to think that Christ would have a problem with that.
Zorro said:
“Is it not possible that the “injuries†to the accuser could have occurred consensually BEFORE she appeared at the house?”
based on my following of a few rape cases, that the Rape kit is extremely bias when it comes to proving a sexual assault occured or not. As far as you know that the injuries explained to you sound brutal, but i would bet that it could also be proven to be consentual. We will find that if a woman goes into a hospital for a rape kit and says she has been raped, then the rape kit will say the same. I think that the injuries to the woman in th KObe Bryant case proved this as well…
Not sure I agree here. The “old days” are still here. They’re just not publicized because those opinions dont bring in the ad dollars.
People who are not regularly on TV and radio still tell it like it is AND apply it equally to everyone.
Even in this Duke cae, people with sense can see past the smoke screen of race and class and get to the root of the matter fairly easily.
If Ann Coulter would apply that same standard to her “conservative” peers, I’d listen to more of what she had to say. Sadly, she refuses to do so.
It is the person who applies the same high standard to EVERYone who is really the most unpopular these days.
I find all this talk about stripping and whether Christ would approve rather distasteful. Please change the subject. – Admin
If she was drugged it should be in the lab work? I don’t understand these rape kits and how they distinguish between regular sex and rape? If someone is choked a doctor should be able to observe that. Is the rape determined by other injuries? Obviously my knowledge of female anatomy and operation is extremely lacking.
La Shawn,
Great web site! I have never posted here before, but I had a thought about the injuries to the accuser which were observed at the hospital. My understanding is that the injuries noted by the nurse were “consistent” with the accuser’s claim of sexual assault. I also understand that a tube of lubricant was found in the bathroom along with the accuser’s purse and cell phone. The accuser was hired to perform with a second female stripper. Could it be possible that the noted injuries were actually injuries that occurred during her “act” with another stripper? After all, why would they send two strippers, except to see them perform upon each other. Perhaps the lubricant was to facillitate the performance? Perhaps a previous “performance” included some sort of penetration with a foreign object by a second stripper and resulted in the injuries noted a the hospital.
It is also possible that the injuries that show she was raped were inflicted after the accuser left the party. There as a considerable lapse between the time the stripper was at the police station and the time at which she showed up at the hospital (accompanied by her boyfriend)complainng that she had been raped.
As a white northeastern liberal woman I assumed these jocks were guilty but the more I hear the less I think they are. A couple of comments
1. When Rev. Al Sharpton cancelled plans to go down to Durham and demonstrate that was a sign that something was fishy.
2. $400 per stripper (as is quoted in the news today as the price agreed upon) sounds like an awful lot for a strip-tease in Durham, NC – I agree with the guy who labelled this prostitution-lite. Maybe it was more than than lite.
I will say that initially I thought that this story could have happened as the strippers reported it. Now, after learning all that has transpired, I really feel badly that these boys have been put through this. The boys only “offense” is that they were disrespectful toward some women who don’t respect themselves. This whole thing is a sham.
I also recall the accuser’s Daddy claiming that the accuser called him to get help with directions to the house and that she told her daddy “we found it”! Who is the “we”? Who was with her and what transpired before she went into the house to dance buck naked AND SPREAD EAGLED in front of a bunch of strange men, SO SHE COULD SUPPORT HER TWO CHILDREN AND PUT HERSELF THROUGH SCHOOL TO BECOME A LAWYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you know what is really weird? When those pictures of the stripper first appeared, there were seven of them. Now there are only six. The close up one of her on the porch with her face obscured is gone. I wonder why.
$400 from one person might be prosititution. $10 per party goer for a stripper, seems like the stripper is not charging enough. For that size of party and 3-4 hours of dancing I would quess 2-4 thousand would be appropiate.
For tawanabradley:
There’s an OB-Gyn who posted (on a different blog) that the result “consistent with rape” on a rape kit means nothing. He says that it is “…just a check box that any form would get unless the exam reveals the person is a virgin. A rape may or may not cause visible trauma.”
(link here: http://abyss2hope.blogspot.com/2006/04/duke-rape-case-defense-you-spin-me.html#c114489768445082870)
I’m inclined to agree with the OB guy. The trauma induced by rape, especially in the genital area, will be exactly the same as if she had consensual sex with another person. Therefore, saying that her injuries are “consistent with rape” mean that she may just have had sex at some time during the night, not necessarily a result of the alleged rape.
Jd: “I don’t understand these rape kits and how they distinguish between regular sex and rape? If someone is choked a doctor should be able to observe that. Is the rape determined by other injuries?”
This is a very common area of understandable confusion. Basically, every rape kit + exam is “consistent with rape”, because rape is a legal “diagnosis” decided by the Jury, not a medical one.
In fact, no rape-related medical exam can even ever be said to be “inconsistent” with rape. And, technically, I believe you can’t ever say it proves rape until the trial, and the Jury agrees. [I'm excluding rape of minors, where a nurse or doctor could be convinced that it must have occurred, but which would still have to be proven by a trial verdict. And as far as I know, even here the examiners still shouldn't say anything public on their own prior to the trial.]
Imo, you make a good point, too, about the effect of severe inebriation upon memory which you don’t hear very much -or at least I don’t. But if the accuser is found to have a blood alcohol of, say, .24 or above at the time of the test, which seems very possible, I would think that without other evidence, the case is even further in deep do-do, given the experts the wealthy defense could produce who could rightfully vow by all that is Holy that there is perhaps at least a 90% chance that the accuser couldn’t really remember anything correctly about that time frame. [But I'm just guessing about these numbers and this defense, and also don't know how this actually plays out in court.]
This is why I like visiting your site. Your level of research into controversial topics is so much better and more thorough than mine is that I often hold off reaching a “conclusion” until I see what you’ve found. This is a perfect example.
Plus, you admit that if you find that you have rushed to judgment and are in error, you’ll be willing to stand up and admit it.
Thank you for sharing. You help us all to be better than we’d be without your help.
Woody
You want hypocrisy? There’s a bottomless pit of it over at Duke’s student paper (The Chronicle).
Just search their archives for the word “rape,” and you’ll learn that Durham residents (some Whites but mostly Blacks, as you’d expect from the local demography) have been assaulting Duke women for years. (These are just a few of the many stories and crime briefs you can find.) There have been several (but much fewer) assaults reported against other Duke students, but you have to ask yourself this: if these assaults by Black Durham residents against Duke women weren’t racial or “class” issues, then what were they? Were they just rapes by men who are rapists against available rape victims? Why didn’t any of these attacks results in lengthy, thumb-sucking opinion pieces in the Chronicle about woeful Duke-Durham relations?
And search the archives all you want, but you won’t find a word of apology, candlelight vigil, march, or visit from Jesse or Al about these assaults by NCCU students against Duke students.
In fact, this is not even the first time an NCCU student has alleged gang rape, although last time, Duke students weren’t the accused. Thus, I doubt this woman had her tuition paid for by Jesse.
The question is, regardless of whether the accusations somehow manage to be true, why was this incident heralded by the press as Exhibit A in the allegation that Duke abuses NCCU, Durham, poor people, and Blacks when previous (and more numerous) cases showing the reverse were quietly ignored? Not that I needed any more proof, but it sure looks to me like journalists, the Duke and NCCU administrations, Durham residents, and a whole lot of people in between, are first class hypocrites.
[Also, you can severely reduce your chances of being raped if you do not go to strange men’s houses and take your clothes off for money.]
That isn’t true at all, actually you are MORE likely to get raped doing the things you normally do since 77% of all rapes go unreported…WHY? Because they’re committed by guys the victim knows. That could be your husband, the pastor at your church, church members or friends. Secondly, I resent anyone who tries to cite black-on-white crime statistics. Americans of african descent as you say are imprisoned in disproportionate numbers in comparison to whites so any statistic stating crimes committed against whites by blacks must factor in that whites get away with far more crime and are policed less. Race would not be a factor if it were not for the premeditated fashion in which events unfolded. First, the team captain lied about the nature of the event and concealed his identity…WHY? Second, his invitation via email indicates that there would be NO NUDITY…WHY? So answer these questions LaShawn:
1.Who in their right mind hires strippers, pays them 800 bucks and specifically requests NO NUDITY?
[that's like ordering a cheeseburger without the cheese]
2. What unsupervised, 20 year old, hormone ravaged college boy would actually voluntarily attend anything involving drinking, strippers and the words NO NUDITY??
Next to steeplechasing, lacrosse has got to be the number one “white priveleged” sport in the country. I dobut many black people are even familiar with how the sport is played. With that said,
3. What would a bunch of spoiled rich college guys want with two BLACK strippers?
>>That isn’t true at all, actually you are MORE likely to get raped doing the things you normally do since 77% of all rapes go unreported…>>
OK…I’ll ask the obvious…if the rapes are unreported, how does anybody know how many there are in order to come up with a percentage?
>>What would a bunch of spoiled rich college guys want with two BLACK strippers?>>
According to one report – they _didn’t_ want black strippers. They wanted _white_ strippers, and supposedly that started out an arguement when the women first arrived and obviously _weren’t_ white.
Wavemaker,
I’m not a Christian so I guess I’m off the hook on that one.
Sleazy or not – naked female entertainment has been a fixture of human life for quite some time. You can read about in in some very old books.
The first mate was always happy when I came home after watching the dancers. I think what has kept us together so long is our policy of no secrets. Or as Dolly Parton once said : I’m married. I’m not dead.
BTW child abuse changes the brain chemistry of some folks permanently causing an endocannabinoid deficiency. To expect such folks in difficult circumstances to always resist what others find easy to resist may be ideal. However, one must deal with reality as it is rather than as we wish it was. Which is why I’m a Republican.
Evidently the realist wing of the R party is growing smaller by the day.
must factor in that whites get away with far more crime and are policed less.
You know this how?
[how does anybody know how many there are in order to come up with a percentage?]
Surveys…
1. Have you ever been raped? [x]Yes [ ]No
2. If Yes, did you report it [ ]Yes [x]No
[According to one report - they _didn’t_ want black strippers. They wanted _white_ strippers, and supposedly that started out an arguement when the women first arrived and obviously _weren’t_ white.]
That sounds like baloney, for one the probable cause affadavit said, someone yelled, “I’m going to stick this [broomstick]inside you” which brought the show to a screeching halt. If they requested white strippers why conceal his identity? Why lie to the strippers and say they were on the baseball and track team? It doesn’t make sense.
Now you’re losing it. I’ve indulged you, but you’re going too far. Go read a few crimes studies, Justice stats, articles, books – something more useful than making absurd assertions. Here’s a tip: a direct response to this edit will not be posted, either. Attack the argument with facts, figures, and sources. – Admin
I share your frustration, Brian, but tone down the profanity and name-calling. This case is provocative enough; gratuitious comments about people’s looks…I just don’t like it. You may repost your comment with those things excluded. –
I think we can safely conclude that whatever happened in that house that night, it was nothing wholesome. I think we can also safely conclude that it was certainly NOT impossible for a rape to have occurred under the circumstances. That said, I believe that the factual record as it has so far been revealed makes it extremely unlikely that any rape actually occurred. Had the woman truly been assaulted in the midst of so many witnesses, why did no one come to her aid or call the police? I would have done so, and I have to believe that at least one person of the dozens in attendance would have done likewise. Then there’s the absense of DNA evidence. Though often absent in rape cases, DNA would be specifically expected in this instance given the detailed allegations and the promptness of the ensuing clinical examination of the accuser. Finally, the accuser’s photo-identification has been debunked as completely worthless. Rather than allow the accuser to identify her assailants from among a collection of photographs including a large proportion depicting men unrelated to the case, the DA had the accuser select her purported assailants from among 46 photographs of TEAM MEMEBERS ONLY. It was therefore impossible for her to choose anyone NOT affiliated with the team, so her photo ID has absolutely NO evidenciary value whatsoever. We thus have neither forensic evidence NOR a victim ID. Then there’s the credibility of the prosecution’s chief witnesses — they have NONE. The accuser was previously convicted of stealing a taxi in a dispute over money, then leading police on a high speed chase during which she attempted to run over a police officer. The other woman, for her part, was convicted of embezzling $25,000 from a prior employer, and had since the alleged rape been charged with violating the terms of her probation. She has also sought professional advice from a PR firm about how best she could profit financially from this “opportunity.†If this is all the DA has, the trial judge will be compelled to dismiss the charges with prejudice before the case goes to the jury. What about the clinical examination and the “rape kit?†Once again, the evidence seems doubtful, but I’ll touch upon this later. Unless the DA has some hidden bombshell evidence, any allegation rape is factually unsustainable.
IF there was no rape, what, then, actually happened? It might be impossible to ever make a conclusive determination, but there are certain clues. One conveniently overlooked element in this whole sordid affair is the blatant mischaracterization of the women and their “profession.†For the longest time they were referred to as “exotic dancers.†More recently, they’ve been called “strippers.†The truth seems far less flattering, still. The fact of the matter is that the two women actually worked for an ESCORT agency, which would imply that they’re PROSTITUTES, not merely dancers or strippers. This bears directly on the supposed clinical evidence derived from the rape kit examination. Put frankly, “genital and anal trauma†are occupational hazzards of prostitution and could have been sustained at any time prior to the alleged rape, and is therefore completely worthless as evidence. Also, according to the Newsweek article, neighbors reported a loud dispute between the women and the lacrosse players over money. This, I tend to think, gets to the root cause — MONEY. As best I’m able to discern, the likeliest scenario is that the players invited two prostitutes to the house with the intention that they should perform sex acts either on each other or on the guests. For their part, when they arrived, the two women were dismayed at the size of the party, and considered the quoted $800 “performance fee†to be inadequate. This financial dispute then likely degenerated into an ugly, racially charged shouting match. Later still, when the accuser was being taken by police to a substance abuse center, facing possible charges, she invented the rape allegation which has since taken on a life of its own.
If the DA were looking for legitimate work, there would seem to be enough here to keep him well occupied. Based on the evidence so far, it would appear that he could charge those players who called the escort agency with soliciting prostitution. He could charge many of the partygoers with underage drinking and disturbing the peace. He could charge the operators of the escort agency with pandering. Finally, he could charge both women with prostitution and disturbing the peace, and also charge the accuser with filing a false police report, obstruction of justice, public drunkeness, and extortion. The charges in such case would at least have the benefit of being consistent with the facts, and well conceived to improve the moral climate of the community in Durham
I can’t get over what a bunch of hypocrites the public seems to be. You have a player write a nasty email that was meant to be sent to his teammates. The email he wrote mimicked and reflected events in two very popular movies shown in mainstream theaters throughout the country. Both of these movies were about the mutilation and sexual torture of women. Where was the outrage and the disgust when these movies were being marketed? There wasn’t any!!!!!! These movies were considered great entertainment!!!!! But this college kid, paraphrases from these movies in a private email and he is maligned throughout the country in just about every newspaper! It appears only Hollywood can make money from providing rape and mutilation of women as a form of entertainment. Apparently a college kid can be publicly convicted when he finds the “dark humor” funny. In fact, I bet more than half of the dolts who were so repulsed by his email, actually went to see both movies. Twice!
Thank you, La Shawn, for letting me post my comment above. I did all this research Friday night and was trying to tell everyone what I found, but I wasn’t having any luck. Most of the blogs I found on this subject were left-wing, and most of them had closed their comments. When I did find a site that still had comments open (some place called “Alas, a Blog” I think), this post didn’t get approved. The Duke Chronicle and News & Observer blogs did let me post, but I get the feeling no one reads them. Anyway, I was a student at Duke, and I remember feeling like we were under assault by Durham some times; but the only official discussion that ever made the papers was always about how much more Duke should be doing for Durham. This whole scandal is like some just turned up the volume on a broken record that’s been spinning for years.
Hello La Shawn. I like your Blog. I’ve posted before and have some observations:
1. I think the general public may get an education on “rape kits” and how it appears they are designed to say any evidence of sex – even in the absence of trauma as long, as the woman is distressed – is “consistent with rape”, without in anyway being confirmatory of rape. I didn’t realize this before this case. A test that does not appear to be in any way scientific, and appears to be a construct that was devised to “stack the deck” in favor of any woman claiming “victimhood”. It would be interesting to explore the origin of the “rape test kit” and the politics of it. And no doubt part is subjective depending on the attitudes of the examining doctor and nurses – whether they are predisposed to believe the victim, etc. And no doubt liability factors in – what if they say it doesn’t look like rape? An angry victim could sue. Best give the customer what they want….
2. If this was reversed, and a black academic fraternity was accused of having a party where 2 white trash hookers with criminal convictions accused 3 of 47 black members of rape….what are the odds that a DA would round up all the blacks, racially exclude others, then take pictures of the 47 and tell the strippers “pick out the 3 blacks – these are all the blacks at the party – so pick out the 3 you are “convinced” are the blacks that did it —without introducing other people into the lineup? Slim and none odds of that, I bet, especially down South, where problems definitely existed with that approach as police did dragnets “these are all the Negroes in the area when the storekeep was shot…now which of these 7 Negroes that could have done it will you positively identify?” Courts have thrown out that approach.
3. If members of the black frat had minor misdemeanor offenses like drinking or beverages on the beach or smoking in a non-smoking area – does that make them “bad blacks” who if they didn’t rape are still nefarious monsters? Even if one or two called out racial epitaths at white strippers like “White trash”, “skanky pasty biker bitches”???
4. The Newsweek story indicates that the frat guys are reporting that BOTH women went into the bathroom ALONE, locked the door for 20 minutes. I suppose next week the sources of that will be confirmed…and then we have either a conspiracy of BOTH strippers to lie, or a conspiracy by uninvolved players to lie that they were in the bathroom.
5. A tube of lubricant and other stuff like condoms in the bathroom of any young adult, in college or not – is notable only in the absence.
6. I am white, but have dated other races. Comments about how black strippers must be unattractive to whites so just having them dance is deemed suspicious – is racist in it’s own right. Black women can be hot! Same with Asians, Latins, redheads…well…point made…And I despair a bit for blacks in the aftermath if they believe the strippers as an unshakable matter of tribal solidarity, even if, as it looks, the evidence is piling up the strippers are lying. There’s enough on MTV and BET that tries to define young black woman as best suited to be hyper-slutty “eye candy” of the the strippers were – as ho’s, bitches, sluts, toys for bling….objects of sexual objectification. Add the misogynist songs about how black women regularly lie to entrap or manipulate the black man and keep him on a leash that “Playas” must break. Finding out another “Tawana Brawley” may taint the larger community if they do, as they did with Tawana, give unquestioning support to the accuser on racial solidarity grounds. Solidarity is great if you are right – that makes you collective “winners” – but banding together around a deceiver, if that is what is proven – makes all who rally so collective fools.
7. As far as I know, you don’t work for an escort agency and just strip…or work only to enthrall older gentlemen with your witty dinner table conversation. The average sex worker employed by 2nd tier escort agencies does do BJs, sex for extra pay. Only the primo exotic dancers who work the first class dance clubs are making so much off tips and lap dances they don’t. The two strippers aren’t in that primo rank of top dancers. The two strippers are not to be called outright -prostitutes, at this point – unless evidence emerges they were, but it is still fair to say that it is likely both do sexual services, and not unreasonable to speculate that the rape accuser’s injuries and “sexual trauma” may have come from a boyfriend or a John in a previous, willing commercial transaction.
8. In this, we see the people that wish to make a suspected crime POLITICAL, and call for collective political punishment against an “Oppressor Class” – defined by the Duke English teacher as “All Lacrosse Players Must Be Expelled From Duke As a Blow Against White Privilege”, or defined by the feminists as “All Men Who Victimize Women – (with the presumption of course that any rape accuser is an automatic victim triggering a Take Back The Night Rally…unless the accused or the accuser don’t line up right in the radical feminists “Victim Class” “Oppressor Class” categories…(which is why you won’t see such rallies for a teen raped by two gay guys, or an Asian raped by a street gang of homeless blacks…because their victim-oppressor political categories don’t support this).
People making crime into a collective (by group) and political act to advance their own cause – black activists, feminists, the Far Left – must be very careful because they are emulating the same tactic central to racial and class stereotyping that caused America so many problems in the past.
If all white athletes who happen to play lacrosse are collectively guilty, the English professor shouldn’t be surprised if whites and hispanics decide black basketball players or marching band players are collectively guilty if a single black musician or athlete is guilty or just accused of a heinous crime. And feminists should watch it because by embracing a potentially lying stripper in a nationally prominent case, they may end up advancing the cause that many come to believe that the best PR rape case the feminists could find to advance their cause nation-wide was a false accusation – therefore most women lie about rape, maybe false accusations are the most common type,…or are so hysterical as women they lack the judgement to know if they were raped or not.
That puts us right back into classic prejudice if crime becomes collective and political. One storeowner has a black embezzler – ergo, blacks can’t be trusted around money. Hire a reliable white or hispanic instead. Black women lie more than other females – so give black females fining complaints more skepticism. That’s a bad path to take, but advocates on the Left playing race, class, and gender ID cards are all but inviting backlash from other parts of society if they keep it up…
9. False accusers are not victims, they are Victimizers. They hurt other people directly, they waste society’s law enforcment and legal resources, they undermine the credibility of other bona-fide victims. No amount of effort to exculpate false accusers as victims nonetheless of “psychological problems”, “a sad life”, “the falsely accused really were SOBs anyways…” – none of that should get them off the hook. Any shield law or press complicity in keeping false accusers nameless and faceless should go away when their deception is uncovered. False accusations are like libel, falsely crying fire in a theater, false fire alarms. Their lies can escalate to the deadly, as when a fire truck on the way to tenements on yet another false alarm kills 6 people in a van..The punishment should begin with their anonymity stripped when their fraud is known – name and face plastered everwhere, harsh criminal penalties need to be legislated, and financial restitution only 3rd in priority. Oddly enough the “privacy shield” is still argued for in rape cases by media and activists even when deception is proven – in NYC, an man falsely imprisoned for rape was freed when the woman was taped by a friend saying she made it all up as punishment for him cheating on her. The press said her name would remain private so as to not discourage other real rape victims from having the courage to come forward, and even if she was guilty, she had many problems in her personal life and “outing her” would likely have a chilling effect on the real victims of rape from seeking justice. (obviously a feminist-friendly journalism staff!). The other people that should be hammered similar to false accusers are any cop or person planting incriminating evidence – any DA perverting justice by letting the guilty go or the innocent be enmeshed in the punitive system so as to advance that lawyer’s future political position or money-making opportunities. All too often, cops and lawyers perverting justice are let go, or let go with a lighter penalty than any ordinary American would be, because of their positions of privilege.
10. Though I don’t want crimes tried in public, I don’t think society should be under the illusion that it is best to wait for a year or so or more to pass with people behind bars or just bleeding money for lawyers, fired from work…for the myth that a jury decides (95% of all criminal justice is resolved without the TV myth of the Jury as the final word). If people look like they are railroaded, if exhonorating evidence is found, then the process of justice is served by letting the innocent out of the Justice System ASAP rather than saying “no doubt he/she is innocent, but we should let the process play out and the well-paid lawyer kabuki dance continue..”
well said Chris Ford
Interesting blog LaShawn – very thoughtful analysis.
In comment # 21, Brandi’s suggestion is to change “was” to “wasn’t”, but I think “was” is correct.
Will be visiting regularly to find out other readers’ comments.
-nj
I share your frustration, Brian, but tone down the profanity and name-calling. This case is provocative enough; gratuitious comments about people’s looks…I just don’t like it. You may repost your comment with those things excluded. –
REPLY: I’m sorry about my earlier post. It was written in frustration but what do you expect when you see this type of bogus case ruining innocent lives??
Black women can be hot! Same with Asians, Latins, redheads…well…point made…
REPLY: Yes they can be “HOT” but these two clearly were NOT!!!
If you’re wondering why I am biased against the accused…
and
If the accused made up this whole thing…
I presume you intended to write “the accuser?” Good work, LaShawn.
Thanks.
– Admin
My wife looks at me with a pained expression every time I search the blogs for more on the Duke lacrosse scandal. I’m a big believer in writing comments using my own name on the ‘Net, but I can’t. And for damn sure I can’t be the slightest bit impartial about this case.
My daughter was raped at a college in Virginia, in somewhat similar circumstances. She was invited to an off-campus party by a new “friend.” The house was owned by an unrecognized fraternity that largely consisted of the lacrosse team. A drink laced with a “date rape” drug, and…well, you can guess the rest.
So when this case broke, I was glued to it–and so filled with rage (and so willing to see these punks hang) that my wife was more than a little rattled. Now that the story appears to have changed, perhaps I’m not quite so enraged. But I’m not going to even pretend to any impartiality–these punks may turn out to not be guilty of rape, but it’s probably more a matter of poor execution than lack of intent.
Have you read the Newsweek article? (Say what you want about the MSM–it’s extraordinarily good coverage of the subject.) There are a couple of points that a lot of bloggers (and the MSM) have missed:
First, despite a federal law requiring colleges to publish statistics about crime committed on- and off-campus, colleges bend over backwards to keep their “numbers” looking good. Tell the college counseling service that you’ve been raped–they’ll tell you that unless you file a police complaint, publicly accusing your rapist, it doesn’t count. The college (via the counselor) knows of the rape–but does not publish that the crime occurred.
Don’t believe me? Here’s a research experiment for you. Take a look at the http://www.securityoncampus.org, and at the U.S. Dept. of Education’s web site of campus crime statistics. Look at the Duke statistics for forcible sexual assault on- and off-campus: a total of 24 crimes committed over the past three years. Given the number of undergraduate and graduate students, the size of the campus, and that the report makes a point of emphasizing that it covers all of campus, including Duke’s medical campus and facilities, and it seems like a low number. The campus looks remarkably safe.
Then note that Duke has a Sexual Assault Support Services unit, and goes so far as to hold programs for incoming first-year women that they are most likely to be raped in the first six weeks of their freshman year. Kind of makes you wonder if their statistics are completely accurate, doesn’t it?
The predators on campus get the message: rape a girl. The school is on your side–particularly if you’re a highly-recruited athlete.
Which brings us to the lacrosse team, and the Newsweek article. Note that Kim Roberts (the “second stripper”) states that she and the accuser were given mixed drinks. Note that Kim Roberts claims the accuser was sober when she arrived–but drank half of her “mixed drink”, and all of Roberts’s. And, a few minutes later, could barely stand.
In other words, the mixed drinks were laced with date rape drugs.
Why? Why would such upstanding young men, the cream of New York society, well-bred, well-fed, millionaire young gents who can have anything they want–WHY would they lace mixed drinks with date rape drugs? Because they intended to rape somebody.
Now–it may well turn out that no rape occurred. It may well turn out that these two kids that have been charged will be royally screwed over by a system that seems to be driven more by politics than by a commitment to justice. But nobody–NOBODY–should get lose sight of the fact that these punks went way, way, way beyond any reasonable sense of decency. “Boys will be boys” is a bogus argument–and most boys don’t hire strippers and feed them date rape drugs. We tend, as a society, to expect crime and violence from poor people–we tend to excuse bad behavior by rich kids with phrases like, “oh, he’s a good kid–he just made a mistake.” If the public gains nothing else from the bright light shown on these cockroaches, it is this: they may not–possibly–be guilty of rape (at least of this woman). But–unquestionably–they are not good kids. They are not “quality young men.” They are not any of the fawning things that family members and public officials from their home towns have been saying.
If you’re a quality young man, do you stay at a party when it becomes apparent that strippers have been hired? In the racially-charged atmosphere of Durham, do you stay when it turns out the strippers hired for your all-white party are black? Do you stay–let alone intervene–when one of your “brothers” suggests sodomizing a stripper with a broom handle? Do you stand by when another “quality young man” says “thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt,” while other of your teammates yell “nigger”?
Which of those “quality” young men said, “enough.” Which of those “quality” young men said, “I’ll take you home.” Which of those “quality” young men said, “this is wrong.” Which of those “quality” young men has stepped forward to admit culpability for the monumental indecency of this event–and the disgrace that it has brought upon his team, upon Duke, and upon the game of lacrosse?
As I wrote above, I’m way more than biased. But check out Sports Illustrated’s article on the impact of this scandal on Duke’s team, and next year’s season: Duke has released their players from their commitments, and many are trying to transfer to other schools. SI quotes the coach at Johns Hopkins (the perennial powerhouse of college lacrosse) as saying he’s received seven or eight transfer applications. He won’t take any–because he’s worried about the effect they would have on his program’s, and his school’s, reputation.
This case may not establish that they’re rapists. But it clearly establishes that they’re punk trash. Duke should expel them all.
I hope a level headed Ph.D. candidate in search of a thesis reads the 100 posts above. There is some really whacky stuff to examine in terms of core belief systems.
I am particularly struck by those who are extra exercised because the strippers are black and the team members are white. Would they bother to post if the strippers were white as well or if the team members were black as well?
This is a spectacular exposition of racism as identified by the mind of the beholder.
God help those who are so inane that they dare represent the views of the Lord.
It is especially unnerving to see how far the uninitiated can take unsubstantiated news fodder and race to certain judgment.
My view: if the rich, white boys raped the woman: fry them. If the black stripper is trying to scam the rich, white boys: lock her up. But in truth, I do not see what race has to do with it other than the fact that it is the sign of our times. It sure looks like many blacks are ready for this la crosse team to pay in full for the injustice done to the Scottsboro Boys. (You can Google it up.)
There are lots of crazy and messed up people in the world. Being on a Duke Lax team doesn’t get one off that list. While I think the Dukies here are innocent. I do think they are crass and dumb. They felt they had to lie about who they were in making the stripper reservation. That means they wanted to hide from any negative reactions. They had no sober people at the party? No bouncers?
For the commenters that get worked up over the racial aspects of this transaction. See my call about the Dukies above.
There is plenty of cool interracial stuff going on in the country. It just never makes news cause violence crowds it out.
It is tough then to form intelligent opionions based on the news. I don’t really understand this Rich preppy angst and poor white or black trash angst that people seem to think are polarizing forces. I’ve never met a rich preppy in my life. Maybe that is cause I live on the west coast.
Maybe if Duke is really class consicous then they should start pulling their freshmen from the local population and stop pulling from preppy schools.
RE: Comment by Withheld, by request — 04.23.06 @ 10:05 pm
Boy, this one is a doozie …
My wife looks at me with a pained expression every time I search the blogs for more on the Duke lacrosse scandal. I’m a big believer in writing comments using my own name on the ‘Net, but I can’t. And for damn sure I can’t be the slightest bit impartial about this case. Then why would we bother listening to your “analysis?”
My daughter was raped at a college in Virginia, in somewhat similar circumstances. She was invited to an off-campus party by a new “friend.†The house was owned by an unrecognized fraternity that largely consisted of the lacrosse team. A drink laced with a “date rape†drug, and…well, you can guess the rest. I empathize, but other than an off-campus house and a lacrosse team — both of which seem superfluous to the factual issues of the allegations — what part of your daughter’s case is similar? Did she have business with the perpetrator? Did she get into an altercation with him? Did she and her friend have a reputation with the police?
So when this case broke, I was glued to it–and so filled with rage (and so willing to see these punks hang) that my wife was more than a little rattled. Now that the story appears to have changed, perhaps I’m not quite so enraged. Who was it who said, “When the facts change, I change my opinion; what do you do?”
But I’m not going to even pretend to any impartiality–these punks may turn out to not be guilty of rape, but it’s probably more a matter of poor execution than lack of intent. Or so you hope, it seems. You’ve decided these guys are close enough matches to the one who raped your daughter, so regardless of the facts, they need to go down.
Have you read the Newsweek article? (Say what you want about the MSM–it’s extraordinarily good coverage of the subject.) How good can it cover this story when there are so few facts about what happened? There are a couple of points that a lot of bloggers (and the MSM) have missed:
First, despite a federal law requiring colleges to publish statistics about crime committed on- and off-campus, colleges bend over backwards to keep their “numbers†looking good. Tell the college counseling service that you’ve been raped–they’ll tell you that unless you file a police complaint, publicly accusing your rapist, it doesn’t count. The college (via the counselor) knows of the rape–but does not publish that the crime occurred. Well, no, it doesn’t know of the rape. It knows of the accusation of rape. Do you really expect a school, government, or business to publish statistics on “crimes” when they are actually including uninvestigated and uncorroborated allegations? It’s hard to go around accusing people of murder when there’s no body to be found, but accusing people of rape is a completely different story.
Don’t believe me? Here’s a research experiment for you. Take a look at the http://www.securityoncampus.org, and at the U.S. Dept. of Education’s web site of campus crime statistics. Look at the Duke statistics for forcible sexual assault on- and off-campus: a total of 24 crimes committed over the past three years. Given the number of undergraduate and graduate students, the size of the campus, and that the report makes a point of emphasizing that it covers all of campus, including Duke’s medical campus and facilities, and it seems like a low number. The campus looks remarkably safe.
Then note that Duke has a Sexual Assault Support Services unit, and goes so far as to hold programs for incoming first-year women that they are most likely to be raped in the first six weeks of their freshman year. Kind of makes you wonder if their statistics are completely accurate, doesn’t it? Duke isn’t saying that new freshmen girls are likely to be raped, they’re saying that IF they get raped while at Duke, it will most likely be during their first six weeks. There’s a HUGE difference.
The predators on campus get the message: rape a girl.Huh? How on Earth do they get that message? The school is on your side–particularly if you’re a highly-recruited athlete.Exactly how do you get to this point? How many rapes have been committed by Duke basketball players (perhaps the most highly recruited athletes in the nation)? Not only is this not the message being sent by the university, there are no statistics to support your assertion.
Which brings us to the lacrosse team, and the Newsweek article. Note that Kim Roberts (the “second stripperâ€) states that she and the accuser were given mixed drinks. Note that Kim Roberts claims the accuser was sober when she arrived–but drank half of her “mixed drinkâ€, and all of Roberts’s. And, a few minutes later, could barely stand.Note that Kim Roberts has changed her story, attempted to profit off the media attention, is contradicted by the photos of the stripper leaving the house smiling, and has received preferential treatment by the DA for her other police entanglements since giving her AP interview.
In other words, the mixed drinks were laced with date rape drugs. In other words, you’re making a huge leap to a conclusion based on an incredible “witness.”
Why? Why would such upstanding young men, the cream of New York society, well-bred, well-fed, millionaire young gents who can have anything they want–WHY would they lace mixed drinks with date rape drugs? Because they intended to rape somebody. Ah, first, your cartoon drawing of the players is a bit hard to stomach unless you have some facts. Second, if they could have anything they wanted, why would they have to drug a stripper to get sex. Given your portrayal of them as have-it-all guys, I imagine this stripper was not their best option for the night.
Now–it may well turn out that no rape occurred. It may well turn out that these two kids that have been charged will be royally screwed over by a system that seems to be driven more by politics than by a commitment to justice. Well, it’s not the system that’s screwing them so much as an anonymous stripper and her opportunistic friend.
But nobody–NOBODY–should get lose sight of the fact that these punks went way, way, way beyond any reasonable sense of decency. Renting strippers is not unheard of. In fact, that’s why you can find them in the Yellow Pages.
“Boys will be boys†is a bogus argument–and most boys don’t hire strippers and feed them date rape drugs. Assumption has become fact, in your mind.
We tend, as a society, to expect crime and violence from poor people Really? My family was poor, but no one ever had trouble with the law, except for some speeding tickets.
–we tend to excuse bad behavior by rich kids with phrases like, “oh, he’s a good kid–he just made a mistake.†Really? Some of the most notorious cases in American crime are ones that happened among the rich and famous.
If the public gains nothing else from the bright light shown on these cockroaches, That is, the boys who resemble the guy who raped my daughter and thus should pay for that crime even though they had nothing to do with it.
it is this: they may not–possibly–be guilty of rape (at least of this woman). Because, since they resemble the guy who raped my daughter, they must have raped someone sometime.
But–unquestionably–they are not good kids. Because they have been accused of being bad, and because they resemble the guy who raped my daughter.
They are not “quality young men.†Because they have been accused of being bad, and because they resemble the guy who raped my daughter.
They are not any of the fawning things that family members and public officials from their home towns have been saying. But, somehow, the accusor, who has stolen property and assaulted officers and works in the sex industry is an angel because her ex-husband says she is. What, exactly, is your standard? Is there one?
If you’re a quality young man, do you stay at a party when it becomes apparent that strippers have been hired? Like I said, they can be found in the Yellow Pages. This isn’t an Amish community.
In the racially-charged atmosphere of Durham, It’s not racially charged. That’s the plot line the MSM has laid down, and you’ve bought it.
do you stay when it turns out the strippers hired for your all-white party are black? You’re supposed to leave because the strippers were Black? how racist is that?
Do you stay–let alone intervene–when one of your “brothers†suggests sodomizing a stripper with a broom handle? Do you stand by when another “quality young man†says “thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt,†while other of your teammates yell “niggerâ€? If that’s what happened (see “Kim” above). Nonetheless, everyone left within a few minutes by this time, no? I looks to me like things blew up pretty quickly and everyone left pretty pissed off.
Which of those “quality†young men said, “enough.†Which of those “quality†young men said, “I’ll take you home.â€
Which of those “quality†young men said, “this is wrong.†Which of those “quality†young men has stepped forward to admit culpability for the monumental indecency of this event–and the disgrace that it has brought upon his team, upon Duke, and upon the game of lacrosse? Er, if that is what happened. For all you know, (a) none of these things happened, and (b) if it did, some of the guys actually did try to calm things down and mitigate the situation. You’ve let the void of their silence get filled with the demons of your mind. You simply have no idea what happened, and you’re projecting all this crap onto a mere skeleton of a story. If you’re going to be a sucker for every accusation made against anyone who slightly resembles the guy who raped your daughter, you’ve got a long, confusing life ahead of you.
As I wrote above, I’m way more than biased. But “I’m biased, but you need to listen to me.” ?? What is your point?
check out Sports Illustrated’s article on the impact of this scandal on Duke’s team, and next year’s season: Duke has released their players from their commitments, and many are trying to transfer to other schools. SI quotes the coach at Johns Hopkins (the perennial powerhouse of college lacrosse) as saying he’s received seven or eight transfer applications. He won’t take any–because he’s worried about the effect they would have on his program’s, and his school’s, reputation. Um, well, of course this is going to have an effect. When you’ve got terrible accusations and an administration that will jump to the defense of a Black woman in order to establish their PC bona fides, then you’re going to have a program and its participants left to hang. Of course, the effects of some accusations on a program has simply no bearing on the facts of the case, and it doesn’t make the players rapists.
This case may not establish that they’re rapists. So, we know in our hearts that they’re rapists, but this case may not be the public proof we need? And why do we know they’re rapists? Oh yeah, because they resemble the guy who raped my daughter, I forgot.
But it clearly establishes that they’re punk trash. And why are these two boys trash when nothing other than the fact that they were drinking with a stripper has been established? Oh yeah … because they resemble the guy … you know the drill.
Duke should expel them all. This may be the one thing the school not only has a right to do, but also an obligation, given its rules and efforts to create a certain campus life. But then why shouldn’t NCCU expel the accusor? It seems to me that it’s rather insulting in all this that NCCU’s reputation is never discussed, and no one seems to think it’s tarnished by having a drunk stripper in the student body. Hmmmm … the racism of low expectations?
From what I have read on the NET since this case began, if a date-rape drug had been administered, the victim would have been unable to remember details of what happened to her–not how many assailants raped her, not how she was raped; nor would she have been able to put up a struggle and scratch her assailants.
Nor would she have recovered so quickly as to be able to make a cell phone call and smile for a picture.
If all the above is correct, then it would tend to show that the victim in this case was not administered a date-rape drug (although I stand to be corrected)
I’m glad to see the date rape meme surface in “withheld’s” post.
Blood was drawn in her exam. It will show if GHB or anything else was present in her blood. That will be a giant step toward making this case go away, or continue.
OTOH, it doesn’t make the case against these particular boys any stronger. By going with, and publisizing, the womans 100% positive identification with boys that have pretty good alibies, he may have doomed the prosecution already.
Haven’t heard much of this in the MSM but the Raleigh News and Observer reported this last week about the accuser…..
One summer night in 2002, excessive drinking led to charges that the woman stole a car and led officers on a reckless car chase.
The episode started at the Diamond Girls club on Angier Avenue in Durham. According to Larry W. Jones, the owner of Diamond Girls, the woman appeared at the club that night and “tried out,” giving lap dances to a few men.
Jones said the manager at the time did not offer the woman a job because she was “acting funny.”
She started dancing for a taxi driver, whom she asked for a ride, according to a report from the Durham County Sheriff’s Office. While dancing, she took the keys from the driver’s pocket without his knowledge and, minutes later, drove off in his taxi.
The cab driver called 911 and a sheriff’s deputy responded and saw the blue 1992 Chevrolet Caprice heading east on Angier Avenue near Page Road. The headlights were off and the woman was driving on the wrong side of the road, according to the deputy’s report.
The woman sped up to pass the officer, and he began to chase the taxi, which ran a stop sign and veered across the road, weaving across a grass median, onto the shoulder and back. The car sped from Angier Avenue onto U.S. 70, the report said.
According to the report, the woman drove down the center of the highway, a 55 mph zone, at 70 mph, heading into Raleigh. She kept speeding, drove the wrong way down Brier Creek Parkway and turned into a dead end, where she tried to drive the taxi through a fence.
The sheriff’s deputy said he got out of his car and told the woman to turn off the car. She laughed, backed up the car, then drove forward again and nearly hit the deputy, the report said.
The taxi slammed into the deputy’s car and kept going, turning back onto Brier Creek Parkway into oncoming traffic, the report said. Another deputy continued to chase her until the taxi got a flat tire. Officers boxed in the car, pulled the woman out and arrested her.
Her blood alcohol level was 0.19, according to court records, more than twice the legal limit to drive in North Carolina.
The woman was charged with driving while impaired, driving with a revoked license, felony speeding to elude arrest, felony assault with a deadly weapon on a government official, and felony larceny of a motor vehicle. Court documents and her criminal and driving records show that her driver’s license had been revoked before the incident, but they do not indicate why.
Under a deal with prosecutors, she pleaded guilty to four misdemeanors in the car chase: larceny, speeding to elude arrest, assault on a government official and DWI, according to court records. She was required to serve three consecutive weekends in jail and was placed on two years’ probation. She paid restitution and court costs, and completed her probation.
So, here you have some circumstances relating to the woman’s behavior while she was drunk and giving a lap dance that might be relevant to the present case where she was supposed to be performing a sexual dance and is characterized as being drunk. Might it not be relevant that she has a history of bizarre and criminal behavior in those circumstances? And does it strike anyone else that she got a pretty light sentence for what she was charged with including a felonious assault on a law enforcement officer?
Redkat explains how we know how many unreported rapes there are:
Surveys…
1. Have you ever been raped? [x]Yes [ ]No
2. If Yes, did you report it [ ]Yes [x]No
This is called, in the field of social research, “self-identification” and it is a wholely problematic method of gaining information.
Problem #1: people lie. People who are sent into a “voting booth” and have their votes tracked will come out and give exit pollsters the wrong answer when asked: “who did you vote for?” Depending upon the divisiveness of the subject being voted upon, the rate of false reporting can reach 50%.
Problem #2: people answer in ways they believe they should. For example, it is often reported that the US is “84% christian”, based strictly upon self-identity. Yet, when matched up against polling seeking religious participation, around 2/3ds of the self-identified “christians” haven’t been to church in years. Likewise, many “Democrats” and “Republicans” don’t vote. The honest answer is “I’m not really any religion” or “I’m politically neutral” but they believe they ought to be religious or political and answer as if they were.
Closely associated with problem #2 is that some people answer in ways that match their ideological values. I’d strongly suggest that your survey question would fall under this. There are women’s groups devoted to the principle that men are brutal, bestial neanderthals. It doesn’t stretch anyone’s credulity far at all — or shouldn’t — to suppose that some women might answer in favor of an unreported rape to strike a blow for the cause.
Problem #3: people impose their own definitions upon the question. Survey terms mustMustMUST be specific and unequivocable, you cannot get accurate polling data on restaurant chili if everyone has their own recipe for chili, for example. Rape is a legally-defined crime that has specific requirements in order to make it a legitimate accusation. A survey respondent, unless a lawyer [and even many of them], might be superimposing their own terminology over the intentions of the survey.
As far as I know, all estimates on unreported rape are just that: estimates. Any attempt to derive figures using self-identification surveys would be more than useless.
To name with held # 101-
You made some interesting comments but I’m afraid that your bias is very evident due to your experience. It’s every father’s nightmare- not being able to protect their daughter/son. I’m truly sorry to hear about the crime committed to your daughter. And God praying that I do not experience that nightmare. If actual rape is found not to have happen, perhaps they should investigate the presence of the “date drugâ€. Is there a crime for the intent to rape?
to Chris Ford #95-
You definitely made some insightful comments as well. Comment #2 is valid but I would say that even though it may be thrown out in the court of law, 47 black men would probably still be rounded up in the same fashion, and being that we’re in Durham, they probably would grab 3 more black guys off Fayetteville St for good measures. The difference is that it wouldn’t take 1 to 2 months after the incidence. 47 black males would be handcuffed and in the line up the next day (I experience something like that before here in Durham).
In the beginning, I was quick to judge the Duke boys as already being guilty. But I revise even before the “publicly view†evidence have been presented. I truly believe that you’re innocent until proven guilty. Granted the “south†and the media has their own warped sense of belief and practice. I pray that the court of law will come through. It sickens me to see all the outside influences (media, high priced lawyers, race, etc) on this case. If the boys are guilty, punish them. If the accuser is lying, punish her.
A little bit of me wants to believe that the DA really isn’t a Dummkopf. I hope that he actually knows what he is doing and that he has an “ace†waiting to be released. I hope that he isn’t using this case for political reasons. But alas so far I don’t see that to be the case.
I told my wife the other day, if the Duke boys are found not guilty, we are staying away from Durham (we long since moved to Raleigh) for fear of riots.
This is also sad.
On a side note, I once paid $900 for three Durham strippers for a bachelor party. Two hours of entertainment. This was in 2004. When I called the “Adult†entertainment service, they did ask me what type of girls (black, white, Hispanic, etc) I want. $400 each seems a bit much for just dancing. By the way the dancers did not show up with a bouncer.
$150 an hour per dancer = $900
Maybe the $400 each is due to inflation.
I still feel dirty
47 black men would probably still be rounded up in the same fashion, and being that we’re in Durham, they probably would grab 3 more black guys off Fayetteville St for good measures. The difference is that it wouldn’t take 1 to 2 months after the incidence. 47 black males would be handcuffed and in the line up the next day (I experience something like that before here in Durham).
I totally agree. And furthermore, the majority of the individuals who are adamantly supporting the Duke players would not do the same for the accused in the reverse scenario and the chances for conviction would also be greater in my humble opinion.
Newsweek’s characterization of Duke co-eds as “lacrosstitutes” is slanderous. Here’s why:
http://crossmolina.blogspot.com/2006/04/newsweek-slanders-entirely-rational.html
I wonder if the black lacrosse team mate was at the party or was even invited. How is he treated by the rest of the team?
Comments on this entry are closed.