Update III (4/27): The Duke rape accuser has cried rape before. Ten years ago she claimed three men had raped her three years earlier. (Source)
The girl’s got an active, though not terribly original, imagination. I wonder if the alleged rapists were white…
Remember, readers — as more info like this seeps out — the vapid, asinine, hypocritical, and race-mongering news stories, op-eds, speeches, and talking heads we’ve endured for the past couple of weeks. I’m on the edge of my chair waiting to hear/read what they’ve got to say about this.
Update II (4/26): One more comment on this post, and I’m done…unless something big happens today. I ran across a few articles about the “lack of diversity” in baseball and the lone black player on Duke’s former lacrosse team (let’s face it, it’s over).
Do you notice that very few people complain or write about the “lack of diversity” of football and basketball teams? Both sports are overwhelmingly dominate by blacks, yet not a peep. Not a serious peep, at any rate.
Interesting…
Update (4/25): Nifong the lyncher?
If/when the rape charges fail, Nifong will have a few misdemeanor cases to keep him busy. Go get ‘em, Mike!
A commenter says: “Sounds like Mr. Nifong is trolling for cooperating witnesses…”
Newsday quoting Steve “I don’t care what you say about him he’s got a point” Sailer:
“The Times, he says, loves a story in which blacks might have been criminally victimized by whites, because it reverses the all-too familiar pattern. So the Times jumps at the chance to show whites acting badly, thus elevating the paper’s self-appointed status as the arbiter of social and racial justice. As Sailer puts it, ‘The Duke lacrosse team, a bunch of rich preppie jerks, makes a wonderful target for other whites wishing to parade their moral superiority.”
For many years in America, Blacks had to fight for true justice in towns where kangaroo courts would work hand and hand with biased juries, to reach a pre-determined verdict. This was done after the mob ensured that someone of the group they disliked was charged with a crime, assuming the mob did not carry out the actual sentence in the streets. Now in a modern twist of irony, it is the so-called Civil Rights community that pressed for charges in the Duke Lacrosse rape case and will likely press for conviction. …Thankfully there are some Blacks who saw the injustice of the past and can still rightfully call out injustice in modern day America, even when that injustice is done at the request of people who feel they have Blacks’ best interest at heart.
This morning Collin Finnerty faced a judge in D.C. re: a previous assault charge, which had been dismissed contingent on the terms of a community service agreement. After his arrest in the rape case, the agreement was revoked. Finnerty faces trial in July for the assault. In the meantime, the judge imposed a curfew and alcohol restriction.
—————————————————————————————————————————–
Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong may not be able sit on his laurels, so to speak, until the job-saving May 2 election, as planned. (And he may end up in serious legal trouble, too.)
Accused rapist Reade Seligmann’s lawyer Kirk Osborn is calling Nifong’s bluff. Osborn wants to know what he’s got. The Smoking Gun has posted a copy of the motion.
Gentle readers, if you thought things were rough before, wait until you see a zealous lawyer in action. Although it’s sometimes distasteful, it is often…dare I put it this way…a thing of beauty. From an article:
The attorney for one of two Duke lacrosse players charged with raping a stripper demanded on Monday that prosecutors turn over the accuser’s medical, legal and education records for use in attacking her credibility.
Kirk Osborn, who represents player Reade Seligmann, said the material will provide “rich sources of information for impeaching the complaining witnesses.”
Osborn also asked a judge to hold a pretrial hearing to “determine if the complaining witness is even credible enough to provide reliable testimony.” (Source)
(By the way, the second set of DNA tests won’t be completed until May 15.)
Even if they never touched the stripper, Seligmann’s and Collin Finnerty’s reputations at Duke University are shot. She could go on national TV tonight and confess she made it up, fall on her knees begging forgiveness and imploring the media and black “leaders” to back off. Wouldn’t make much difference.
The defense is about to dig so deeply into the accuser’s life…mere words can’t express it.
Who knows what evidence Nifong has at this point, but this is what we know for sure about his would-be witness Kim Roberts: she is not credible. A newly-minted lawyer fresh off the bar exam would skewer her. Heck, a first year law student would…no forget that. A person with a pulse would skewer her.
In the United States, a defendant has a right to confront witnesses against him and impeach their credibility. A defense attorney would not be doing his job if he didn’t attack a witness’s credibility. A jury has to decide whether or not to believe the person on the stand, and a charge of perjury, for example, would undermine the testimony. I’m not familiar with North Carolina’s Rules of Evidence, but evidence of Roberts’s changed story should be allowed in, and her criminal record and PR contact might be allowed in. A jury may still believe her, but those factors would make it tough. I can’t even imagine what the defense lawyers are going to do to her during cross examination, assuming there’s a trial. 
Let’s recap: Roberts is a stripper who embezzled money from a former employer and was arrested eight days after the party for violating probation. Coincidentally (wink, wink), Nifong signed off on a deal for his would-be witness that exempted her from paying a 15 percent bonding fee. Roberts changed her story about the rape and contacted a PR agency for advice on how to spin the “tragedy” to her financial advantage.
On second thought, forget the pulse. A corpse would skewer her…
Getting my popcorn so I can comment watch
Comment by Renee — 04.24.06 @ 6:57 pm
LaShawn: there’s an incredible quote in this week’s Newsweek, where a fellow student of the alleged victim wants the two Duke students to face trial.. “whether it happened or not”. This guy has such a chip on his shoulder he actually wants two guys - who may very well be innocent - to suffer just to make him feel better about “things that happened in the past”.
Here are the links to my post and to the Newsweek story.
Comment by steve sturm — 04.24.06 @ 7:36 pm
We know it’s possible to get off in the face of overwelming evidence (O.J. Simpson). Now we will see if someone can get convicted on little or no evidence.
BTW: Did The Juice ever catch his wife’s murder? Last I heard he was hot on the trail!!
Comment by Mwalimu Daudi — 04.24.06 @ 7:48 pm
That prosecutor better “channel” Johnny Cochran if he even hopes to win this case. He’s up against people with piles of money who have hired the very best defense lawyers.
The accuser has a lot to lose, not to mention her children. That’s really very sad. I agree, at this point she should fall on her knees and confess. Maybe, just maybe, the accused will show mercy and not press charges simply to get this horror behind them.
The one person I really would like to see charged is the prosecutor, who probably coerced her to persue this case. I don’t think she should be let off scott free, but I believe if there was a different prosecutor, maybe the case wouldn’t have gone this far.
So many lives are in ruin.
Comment by dianne — 04.24.06 @ 8:11 pm
Lashawn,
I am stuck at the beach with dial up. My son has nothing more to report, it is a one story house. Here is the only gossip he’s noted that I have not heard. There were at least 3 students who were not on the team that were at the party and were not required to give DNA, makes no difference, since nothing happened, Also all 46 white players gave DNA, NOT all 46 were there. I read the NY Times said 41 were there THAT IS WRONG. Please keep up the good work, these boys need all the help they can get, did you mention Duke has suspended them? Why no other blog, but ABP has picked up on this is a real disappointment to me. Maybe the Race thing is too hot for them. Thanks GOD BLESS YOU, Kemp
Comment by Kemperman — 04.24.06 @ 8:49 pm
My Dear LaShawn,
Remind me please to never p*ss you off, ma’am.
That lawyer’s motion pales before the majestic scorn and fury of your righteous indignation.
Truly, a thing of beauty. Two thumbs up!
Well done, ma’am. Very well done, indeed.
Jim
Sloop New Dawn
Galveston, TX
Comment by Jim — 04.24.06 @ 9:37 pm
A couple of things: First, if there was any type of date rape drug given the accuser how did she remember what happened and who did it.
Second, someone drove to the party with her. Who was it? And quite honestly, if Nifong really believes that the stripper was raped by some boys at the party, and those boy’s DNA tests did not match anything, then why wouldn’t he test the black boys DNA, too? Even though the accuser said her attackers were white, if Nifong thinks she might have been drugged, why wouldn’t he test EVERYONE at the party, regardless of their skin color. Maybe the “drugs” made her less aware. And another thing, how can you be “90%” sure? That’s Stupid.
Comment by Belle — 04.24.06 @ 10:15 pm
Mike should have dumped this case when he had a chance. Now he’s not even going to be able to get a job flipping burgers by the time it’s over.
And I wonder what the reaction would have been if a Black man who was a suspect in a high profile case was arrested and charged without even being interviewed and DNA had already came back negative? I don’t think the guys are angels and some may even be all out racists, but they’ve been rail-roaded and it stinks!
Also, there’s one person who failed in their responsibility, but nobody seems to be considering this angle: http://www.independentconservative.com/2006/04/23/men_fail_and_divorce/
Comment by Independent Conservative — 04.24.06 @ 10:24 pm
I don’t have much of an appetite for salacious stories-not to be a wet blanket on this, but with so much life/death/clash of civilizations going on, I can’t help but feel this story is being kept ‘hot’ as a distraction from more important events.
Breads and circuses? Is this story really more important than Iraq having broken the political stalemate and formed a working government? Iran’s psycho President declaring that they have nukes and will soon destroy Israel and attack the United States?
Please, people,let’s focus on immediate events which may change your lives. It’s not December 6th, 1941 anymore.
Comment by Doug — 04.25.06 @ 12:58 am
LaShawn - “The defense is about to dig so deeply into the accuser’s life…mere words can’t express it.”
Ohhhhh, that is so true. In other felonies inc. rapes where the circumstances are clearer, private digging wouldn’t happen. But in this case, I suspect that major digging will happen on the accuser, and the 2nd stripper. I also think the players, if innocent, may have a legal interest in detailing the actions of Duke, the DA, Duke’s Board, maybe even Kingfish Jesse - for future a future slander, defamation of character, and loss of the benefits of having a full Duke education for the value of tuition paid.
Some observations:
1. The big go-no goes are: (A)Toxicology reports (B)Resolving the 20 minutes in the bathroom between the 2 strippers version and the players who in independent interviews said they BOTH went in ALONE, locked the door, and players spent 20 minutes trying to talk them to come out and slipping money under the door as persuasion. This was a small house, bathroom in close proximmity to the partygoers. Either the rest of the players are conspiring to lie, or BOTH the 2 strippers are. But experienced investigators should be able to resolve which story is the more plausible one. Toxicology is obvious - was the stripper slipped something, or was she drunk or did some hard drugs in the bathroom. If all the press and investigators now fanning out and hitting people up find it was a date rape drug, then the whole case will shift back to more people thinking the stripper is the aggrieved one.
2. Investigators will be going to her escort agency and seeing who drove her. More, they will be looking at all calls she was dispatched on over the last 3 or so months to see if she appeared drunk or drugged on her calls, and exactly what she did with clients. Specifically, to see if she was a regular prostitute whose vaginal and anal injuries can be explained by frequent client penetration. If she ever threatened to cry rape with a John if she wasn’t paid extra. What her behavior was like at other parties. The second stripper will also have her calls queried to see if she had incidents that put her veracity in question.
3. Both woman’s associates and friends will be queried.
4. Prep work, if the lawyers are convinced of their clients innocence or by lawyers retained by other players not indicted but harmed will commence on the damages aspect - what loss of collegiate sports and the stigma preventing transfer to other institutions signifies for potential renumeration - if these students were treated differently than other athletes that were not assigned collective punishment for actions or simple felony accusations made against a player or player on Duke basketball, track, football, debating, or any other Duke organization. The forced out coach might be already looking at legal representation for compensation for HIS assumption of being guilty of an off-campus incident involving his players that conceivably turns out to violate no law (other than underage drinking, usual frat stuff…) especially if no other coach with players in similar circumstance are addressed so.
5. The lawyers for the players may query past sexual assaults of Duke students as discovery materials and publicly ask why both Duke and prosecution minimized past assaults, and detail those assaults in quantity and possibly race of the raper and the raped.
6. It is possible that legal ground exists for a civil rights case. If prosecution was driven by animosity towards “white people” to satisfy political demands of blacks prior to an election. If Duke conspired to violate the players civil rights to “play along” with local politicians..
7. No use suing the strippers, though if a date rape drug was used on the accuser, even with no rape, she could sue and press criminal charges on those grounds. But if both strippers lied, I just don’t see them getting off scott-free…
Comment by Chris Ford — 04.25.06 @ 1:12 am
Doug, this story might be a case of DA file charges based on politics. If so , it is a bad trend for freedom in this country. We are creating political prisoners then.
Comment by Jd — 04.25.06 @ 1:43 am
This article:
http://www.newsobserver.com/734/story/431568.html
says that, “[Nifong] has speculated that no DNA was recovered because the attackers may have used condoms.”
This statement is revealing for several reasons. It can’t possibly be true that “no DNA was recovered” from the accuser, because if that were true then doing DNA tests on the players would be pointless! A more accurate statement might be “[Nifong] has speculated that no DNA ***matched the lacrosse players’ DNA*** because the players may have used condoms.”
Here’s a question: Did the exam that accompanied the “rape kit” and was deemed “consistent with rape” find semen?
I suspect that it did, and the District Attorney was so eager to test the DNA of the white players because a positive match would be a “slam dunk” in his book (even though a positive match still wouldn’t prove that the sex was rape vs. consensual).
If semen was found during the exam, that is immensely significant. The lack of a DNA match with the players proves that the accuser had sex (consensual or not) with someone other than the players, and any injuries she sustained cannot be proved “beyond a reasonable doubt” to be (or even likely to be) caused by the players. It would beg the question: who IS the source of semen? Another client?
Now for a pure “What if…” question: What if the sample itself was analyzed and the DNA was found to be from a person who is black, not white? Wouldn’t that throw a wrench in the “race card” game?
Comment by Bob — 04.25.06 @ 2:33 am
That’s the big question, isn’t it Bob? Did the test find semen? Mikey’s not talking. If there’s evidence of semen and I were a betting woman, I’d wager that it’s from a black man/men she had sex with earlier that day.
Comment by La Shawn — 04.25.06 @ 6:55 am
#9 Doug asks why this soap opera is such a distraction to the real ills of the world.
To a large extent, I agree that this is “pop”news in a sea of really serious stuff.
However, I also think that this case may be one that knocks a big chunk in the facade of the race pimps who keep the “tension” pot roiling.
Many of us who are fans of LaShawn have moved on when it comes to always looking for the racist boogieman in everything that touches us. However, there are more than a few who post on this site who drink a full quart of “race victimization” before they start the day. This case is giving them heartburn.
A little reality check, now and then, might wean them over to a more productive way of viewing the world they live in. In that event, this is a very important part of the news.
Comment by Heliotrope — 04.25.06 @ 8:45 am
So Mr. Nifong is reinstating charges of noise violations, public urination, and public drinking?
Sounds like my type of prosecutor.
When he gets finished cleaning up Durham, tell him to drop by Jackson Heights NY, there’s plenty of that type of offenses to keep him busy.
This reminds me of my tour of duty at Ft. Hood, Texas. The local cops used to bust soldiers for “public intoxication”. No physical evidence was needed, no blood test was done or needed, just the testimony of the police officer. Generally, a thousand dollar fine settled the whole thing.
Sounds like Mr. Nifong is trolling for cooperating witnesses…
Comment by patch — 04.25.06 @ 9:21 am
To #9, this is true.
If this had been a “regular” rape, of which there are more than 300,000 reported each year, we would not even be talking about them. 300,000 reported rapes each year! Speaking of, there was a 14 year old white girl raped by her white stepfather just recently on the news in my area. It happened 2 weeks ago, and there hasnt been coverage on it since that first report. This is the world we live in today.
But because we have the ingredients of race and class and a prestigious university all mixed together, people have something to talk about.
I personally think its much ado about nothing. I dont think there was a rape. I dont really care either way. I think both sides in this case are getting exactly what they deserve in the way of public ridicule and scrutiny.
You’re talking about the American justice system. While its by far the best in the world, rarely has it always been about getting to the simple truth. Why? Because its run by man and man is inherently evil.
The media, both “conservative” and “liberal”, from what I see are demonic. They play on unwarranted fears and stereotypes. They refuse to focus on the simple truth. Too many of one race did something to another race. One race did this to another race. Race and class, race and class all the time. Then the talking heads on both sides get in on the game spewing outrageous comments.
Everyone is wading in the stinking sewage of race baiting, hate and classism.
Comment by lukeNC — 04.25.06 @ 9:21 am
I wonder if they found any other DNA on her, that was not Caucasian. Now that we know that this woman does on-on-one engagements (aka prostitution) up to 3 times a week with various clients, doesn’t this pose the idea that she could of had another sexual engagement with other men earlier in the evening. Hey, I am a black man, but I got my money on it, that it is likely a black man, or men who may of had sex with her earlier that evening. But I am only speculating here.
Also, this evidence of her having these ahem! one-on-one engagements 3 times a week, makes me think that in the least, the engagements that she had in that week should be admitted.
But it seems to me that this thing is divided down the line by race. I noticed on Fox News yesterday that even the security guard woman seems to not be cooperating in this case anymore. She was the original one who said that the woman was drunk, then she changed her story to she could not smell alcohol on the accuser, I dont trust her now. I see that “some” blacks are willing to exploit this case for the purpose of race as much as they can. This disappoints me. You would think that people would want the truth. But now I see people just want to see someone go down.
For us mature people out there, we have a duty to protect our justice system with high profile cases like this one. My feeling is that there are many on both sides of this case looking to exploit it for whatever reason they feel necessary. I see them in public, and in the media. There are those that use this case for bringing up race, then I think there is the gender issues, and a close 3rd in the mix is class.
We all have an obligation to make sure that this woman receives justice, and that the boys get a fair trial.
Lets get the mature adults in the room on this one.
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 9:51 am
Three points:
(1) Again with the DNA. People, listen. It’s not the silver bullet. First of all, there may have been no semen. Secondly, if she fought back, and they were clothed, she wouldn’t have their DNA under her fingernails. Also, the DA may have obtained some DNA nonetheless — hers — and they needed samples from the lacrosse players in order to distinguish it. I wouldn’t read too much into the whole DNA angle.
(2) The defense can attack the credibility of the accuser, but her criminal record probably won’t come in as evidence unless the crimes had to do with credibility issues. So, fraud and perjury (for example) would be relevant; prostitution (for example) would not be. Drug and alcohol treatment is probably irrelevant to the issue of credibility. Her commitment to a mental instutution might be relevant, depending on what she was committed for. But a broad smear on the (alleged) rape victim’s morals, loose standards, etc. will not be allowed. (I’m an NC attorney, for what it’s worth).
(3) My guess is that the best forensic evidence of rape lies in bruises and scratches on the (alleged) victim. Yes, I know she had some going into the party, but doctors are able to distinguish fresh bruises from older ones. I think that is what the DA has up his sleeve.
Comment by Kman — 04.25.06 @ 9:59 am
LukeNC said:
“If this had been a “regular†rape, of which there are more than 300,000 reported each year, we would not even be talking about them. 300,000 reported rapes each year! Speaking of, there was a 14 year old white girl raped by her white stepfather just recently on the news in my area. It happened 2 weeks ago, and there hasnt been coverage on it since that first report. This is the world we live in today. ”
I agree with you Luke, but one thing that I think we all need to do, is take a closer look at ourselves…I have even caught myself in this case taking it more important than other cases.Why?
Well I think it was because I think if we really want to get to the bottom of the problem of “rape” in our society, then we need to make sure that it is dealt with in an honest and fair way. Sex in this country is now a politcal issue, so somehow, rape has now been included in that. Rape is important for us to handle, but someone in our society, like feminists, have confused the issue of what rape is, to the point where many rapist can get away with it, or many women can falsely accuse someone of rape.
I hear people talking about date-rape. To me that is an oxymoron. If you force someone to have sex without their consent, then it is rape. No need to try and bias or confuse what rape is. By finding new words to politicize it. Now we here in the news of this thing called “date rape drugs”. What? This is stupid.
To me, if you drug someone against their will, in order to have sex with them, then it is rape. A rapist is a rapist. He can force someone, or he can decieve his prey.
My other problem with how we treat rape, is that we have made it easier for “some” women to think that they can use rape against someone. Lets be honest, some women do lie about rape. For whatever reason, the Rape Shield Laws puts these few women at an advantage to their prey also. Also I have learned since the Kobe Trial, that Rape KIts are extremely bias, and a just worthless. Basicly all it is, is a bias medical exam that is pro-accuser. It has very little to do with actual medical evidence. Either way these kits are a waste of money, becuz they can be disputed in court easily. I personally think a virgin can walk in for a rpae kit, and she can be proven to have injuries consistent with rape or assualt. All she has to do is say she was raped, and the nurse or doctor will go with her word.
Rape is a hard issue. I think that the system is saying that if a woman says she is raped, that she would not lie about it. As if women dont lie? By the system doing this, it has had to also make the case to prove rape much harder, and is probably letting many rapist get by.
Again I think you have to get the feminists out of the room, and let the mature adults in the room, to settle this issue. I dont think some want to see balance anf fairness in rape.
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 10:14 am
Kman said:
“The defense can attack the credibility of the accuser, but her criminal record probably won’t come in as evidence unless the crimes had to do with credibility issues. So, fraud and perjury (for example) would be relevant; prostitution (for example) would not be. Drug and alcohol treatment is probably irrelevant to the issue of credibility. Her commitment to a mental instutution might be relevant, depending on what she was committed for. But a broad smear on the (alleged) rape victim’s morals, loose standards, etc. will not be allowed. (I’m an NC attorney, for what it’s worth).”
I am sorry Kman, but I have to diagree with you here. The case in 2002 goes directly to credibility in my opinion, and probabaly will be admitted. Just as much of the boys problems will also be admitted in this case. And if you think that prostitution is not a part of this case, then you obviously have been on another planet for the last 1.5 months. These woman goes on one on one engagements at least 3 times a week. If anything, what she did that week will come into play in this case. If she has had any other times where she has had drugs or alcohol problems, then it has to be a part of this case. Clearly some are saying that she was drunk or passed out. How can you say that drug or alcohol is not relevant to her credibility? That is making no sense at all to me. Drugs and alcohol go directly to credibility.
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 10:24 am
A quote from Mr. Nifong, in announcing that he will revoke the plea deals of several lacrosse players (relating to their awful crimes of possession of alcohol, noise complaints, etc.):
“He was one of the people who rented the house that was serving alcohol to underage people and hiring strippers,” Nifong said. “In order to put somebody under deferred prosecution, the DA has to … certify that he does not believe the person is likely to do any further criminal acts. Under the circumstances, it’s hard for me to see how we could maintain that.”
Okay, serving alcohol to minors is a crime. But is Mr. Nifong telling us that hiring strippers is a crime? If so, wouldn’t the act of stripping also be a crime? And if it’s so important that we ensure that plea-bargained individuals be dissuaded from committing “further criminal acts”, why the leniency for Ms. Roberts in her probation violation? (A probation for an offense much worse than possession of a beer or being too loud, btw.)
My advice to Mr. Nifong is to start treating people with consistency, it’ll help you avoid the appearance of impropriety in the future…although maybe it’s too late anyway.
Comment by jc — 04.25.06 @ 10:35 am
#20 tawanabrawley raises a number of good points about rape cases in general.
I am wondering if the “rape shield” laws/customs should not be applied to the accused as well. I suspect it is not really possible. But when rape accusations start flying between people who know one another or have made contracts, the chance that the accused is being victimized goes way up.
If “date rape drugs” are used, that goes to motivation and makes the rape predatory.
Nasty, predatory rape is quite different from “date rape” and complications that rise out of sexual contracts.
Comment by Heliotrope — 04.25.06 @ 10:45 am
“If she has had any other times where she has had drugs or alcohol problems, then it has to be a part of this case…..Drugs and alcohol go directly to credibility.”
No, her past drug/alcohol problems have nothing to do with her present credibility.
If that were the case, then many people (including, I believe, the honorable proprietor of this site) can easily be impugned and dismissed as “liars”. I’m not prepared to do that and — thankfully — the law doesn’t recognize that.
By the same token, being promiscuous — or even a prostitute — is irrelevant. North Carolina, like most states (PDF format) has rape shield laws which limit using a victim’s sexual history as evidence (subject to limited exceptions).
Comment by Kman — 04.25.06 @ 10:58 am
kman, in regards to your point (1): The accusuer is claiming that she scratched the players’ bare skin. In fact, this is how she says she was able to identify them — by scratches that she gave them. She ID’ed the two players by examining photos of them with their shirts off. If her story is true, there *must* have been DNA from the players under her fingernails. So the fact that the DNA tests turned up negative is very significant. Knowing this alone, if I were on that jury, I would vote to acquit.
tawana and LaShawn: The type of DNA tests they are running cannot determine the race of the person that the DNA came from. It’s strictly match / no match against individuals.
Can’t speak for tawana, but I already knew that. I wrote that I bet the guy(s) is black, not that DNA would tell us he’s black. - Admin
Comment by Cousin Dave — 04.25.06 @ 11:01 am
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - La Shawn you are absolutely brilliant. The analysis of the case is first rate and you have some brilliant commenters as well. Your site has become a “must read” for me on a daily basis. And yes, anyone with a pulse is smarter than Nifong based on my assessment of his skills. Since I’m a longtime paralegal, I’m not easily impressed by attorneys (although you DO impress me).
I continue to feel that the destruction of these young mens’ reputations and their suspension from school - even those who weren’t at the party and what’s up with that, is a hate crime in and of itself. Lives that might have contributed and been productive have been - at the very least - derailed temporarily and in some cases, permanently. And for what? Political gain? If that is the case, then Nifong should be pilloried in perpetuity!
Comment by Gayle Miller — 04.25.06 @ 11:10 am
“No, her past drug/alcohol problems have nothing to do with her present credibility.”
But it does go to her credibility at the time of the crime. She could of blacked out. Many people who have been drunk dont get their facts right. Many people on drugs as well.
“If that were the case, then many people (including, I believe, the honorable proprietor of this site) can easily be impugned and dismissed as “liarsâ€. I’m not prepared to do that and — thankfully — the law doesn’t recognize that.”
Tge defense has alkready filed a report putting this notion forward already. They have to, and must recognize the fact that this accuser was impaired at some point during this party. And if she has a history of drug use, or alcoholism it should be admitted.
JUst like that incident in 2002, is something that sounds very like something this accuser would do.
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 11:21 am
Heliotrope:
“Nasty, predatory rape is quite different from “date rape†and complications that rise out of sexual contracts.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “sexual contract”. Hiring a stripper does not give you license to rape her any more than hiring a sparring partner gives you license to shoot him.
And is that what you think this was — a “complication” arising out of a sexual contract? If so, that’s an interesting word choice — kind of like saying that a “murder” is just a “disagreement with complications”.
I honestly don’t know what happened, but assuming the stripper was forced to engage in sex against her will, let’s at least call it for what it is — rape. IF that’s the case, there are no mitigating circumstances, and I think it is just as heinous as “predatory” rape. I see no difference at all.
Comment by Kman — 04.25.06 @ 11:23 am
Cousin Dave said:
“tawana and LaShawn: The type of DNA tests they are running cannot determine the race of the person that the DNA came from. It’s strictly match / no match against individuals.”
Me:
But if they found pubic hairs I am sure they could tell the difference there. How can they identify a person based on the DNA under the nails?
and how can she not have any of the guys DNA under those nails?
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 11:24 am
By the way, the picture of Selgimann at the party shows him in a red short sleeve shirt.. Not only that, this is the guy that was in front of her, forcin her to perform oral sex (however that happens), so she would of had a good look at him, and would of scratched somekind of DNA off of his arms at some point.
Where is the DNA in this case?
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 11:26 am
They create a profile based on DNA, which may or may not match against the profile of a known person. It’s all very interesting.
They may be able to discern race based on the hair but not through DNA. Simple observation and comparison would be good enough. Then again, I don’t know what they can do these days. I’ll track down a link.
Later… Here’s a DNA primer from DOJ:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/dna_4_2001/
DNA and race:
http://www.hhmi.org/cgi-bin/askascientist/highlight.pl?kw=&file=answers%2Fgenetics%2Fans_011.html
Comment by La Shawn — 04.25.06 @ 11:28 am
“I’m not sure what you mean by “sexual contractâ€. Hiring a stripper does not give you license to rape her any more than hiring a sparring partner gives you license to shoot him.”
Awww come on, nobody is saying that at all, and I think you know that. The point was being made that at some point consent takes place. I dont think anyone, including the drunk white boys, thought that hiring a stripper meant they could rape…and I am not sticking up for these naive stupid boys.
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 11:28 am
These boys are not so dumb as to think they could rape her (or have any other kind of sexual contact) and not leave any evidence behind. They are certainly lacking in common sense, but they are (seemingly) intelligent, “book smart,” well educated.
Why on earth would they claim there is absolutely, positively no evidence of sexual contact?
They have (presumably) the best defense attorneys money can buy in the Triangle. Why would these attorneys let them present this defense if there was ANY possibility of finding a scratch, a hair, saliva on her person?
Comment by SLee — 04.25.06 @ 11:42 am
“These boys are not so dumb as to think they could rape her (or have any other kind of sexual contact) and not leave any evidence behind. They are certainly lacking in common sense, but they are (seemingly) intelligent, “book smart,†well educated.”
Oh great now we have nerd rapist….lol
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.25.06 @ 11:54 am
tawanabrawley…
You are funny (nerd rapist)…LOL
Comment by Renee — 04.25.06 @ 12:14 pm
tawana:
“Awww come on, nobody is saying that at all, and I think you know that. The point was being made that at some point consent takes place.”
At what point does it take place? How does it take place?
I’m asking that seriously. I hire a stripper for a party to take off her clothes, and she does so. She removes her clothes piece by piece. She dances sexily in front of everyone. Let’s say she even gives a lap dance to one guy. At what point in that timeline does “consent” kick in?
The law is pretty clear about this. Even under my scenario, she hasn’t given consent to have sex.
Besides, if she starts resisting (saying “no”, fighting back, etc.), it becomes clear that consent wasn’t given, and anything that happens after that is still rape.
(I’m not saying this is what happened — like everybody else, I lack the facts. I’m just saying that consent cannot be “implied” even if someone acts overtly sexual).
Slee:
“Why on earth would they claim there is absolutely, positively no evidence of sexual contact?”
You have to understand that in the early stages of a case, defense attorneys only know what their clients tell them. And clients often lie to their own attorneys.
I’ve seen it a million times. You ask the client what happened, and they tell you they weren’t even there. Then you get evidence that they were there (usually from the DA), and you approach your client, and they tell you a different story. (”Okay. I was there, but I didn’t see anything.”)
Also, in cases like these, there’s the shame factor. Let’s suppose these kids did have sex with the stripper, but it was consensual. That would still mean that they would have to publicly admit — and have their families learn — that they had group sex with a stripper in a seedy bathroom. That’s not easy to own up to, especially if you are viewed as “bright” and “smart”. So sometimes, even innocent defendants, uh, shade the truth, to cover up their embarrassing (but legal) acts.
Comment by Kman — 04.25.06 @ 12:17 pm
The True Fight for Justice at Duke and Lynch Mobs
For many years in America, Blacks had to fight for true justice in towns where kangaroo courts would work hand and hand with biased juries, to reach a pre-determined verdict. This was done after the mob ensured that someone of the group they disliked…
Trackback by Independent Conservative — 04.25.06 @ 12:25 pm
This may be a really stupid question, but how could three big men and a women fit into that bathroom and do what she said they did? That house looks to be quite old and small. I bet the bathroom is tiny. I would like to know the dimensions of the bathroom. I bet it would not allow 4 adults much mobility. Again this does not make sense.
Comment by Belle — 04.25.06 @ 12:31 pm
Duke Lacrosse Lawyer Demands Evidence
La Shawn Barber updates her series on the Duke Rape case–involving few who are upstanding citizens–as it takes a few more turns….
Trackback by Pajamas Media — 04.25.06 @ 12:33 pm
What’s the possibility of this case being broadcast on TV (a la Orenthal James)?
Comment by Gerald — 04.25.06 @ 12:59 pm
KMAN:
You don’t need any other person’s DNA to figure out what belongs to the “victim” and what belongs to (an) unidentified suspect(s), as you have the complaining witness and know her DNA. So if there is foreign material that isn’t the accused or any Duke Lacrosse players, Nifong is in trouble.
Further, the point on prostitution isn’t to proclaim consent, or at least not in the first instance, based on defence statements. Rather, the point is to provide an alternate theory as to how she got her injuries, as the commenter to highlighted the issue of prostitution specifically stated. If they did have a DNA link, her empoyment as a prostitute and her reason for coming to the party would be evidence that maybe there was consensual sex (i.e. sex for money) and the consent was withdrawn after the fact because of something. Using prostitution to explain the bruises is a much stronger defence than trying to cloud a consent issue.
Further, it is very hard to determine the age of bruises committed on the same day on a living body. The defence will try to lever the prostitution into a “date” on the same day as the party that may have gotten rough. Hence the fresh bruises and scratches. Obviously an encounter several days before the party is much easier to separate than something that happened just a few hors before (though of course the lawyers will make do with whatever they have). If you actually are an NC lawyer, I’m surprised at your take on the actions, facts, and probable outcomes.
Comment by Hey — 04.25.06 @ 1:21 pm
I appreciate those who answered my earlier comment, or thought about it. Here’s a question: two years from now, will you still be discussing this, ala the “Natalie Holloway Fox News 24/7″, or will you have done more with your time?
Yes, it is important right now, and I’m not saying forget it totally; I’m just suggesting that there are events going on in the world which may dramatically upend your existence,and may be more important to focus on.
Having said that, I go around the net quite a bit, and I must say that those commenting here are some of the most informed, respectful commenters blogging. Some elsewhere are terribly impolite.
Comment by Doug — 04.25.06 @ 1:26 pm
This discuss is very interesting. I read many of the contributions over several days about the credibility of the accuser, the issue of race and crime, and about evidentiary standards. I commend Kman for giving an accurate account of the evidentiary standards to be applied in a court of law. People must understand that our laws are designed to arrive at work is likely the truth in any case. Without the evidentiary framework we now have, there would be even more miscarriages of justice complained about so frequently in the media. In my opinion, the judge in this case, if he hasn’t done so already, should issue a gag order on the parties to minimize the propaganda from both the prosecutor and defense counsel.
More important, we all need to understand that no one knows the facts of what really happened that night except the accuser and the accused. We can speculate and offer unfounded opinions based on news reports, but what effect will it have. My concern is that so many have torn into the history of the accuser such that any woman who has a questionable past will think twice about accusing anyone of rape. Of course, we don’t want false accusations against innocent people (in reality, it happens across this country everyday, outside the attention of the media). But we don’t want to stifle and suppress any woman or man from bringing to bear their grievances to the proper authorities. Please consider if your position would be the same if the accuser was your daughter.
With respect to the race issue, it is amazing at the number of people who are complaining about the white boys getting the shaft. First, let’s all recognize that race will always be an issue when you have a victim and alleged criminal of different races. This is one of the few times you will have white defendants and a black victim garner so much media attention. Generally, it is a white victim and a black defendant, e.g. O.J., Kobe. To this day, both O.J. and Kobe have reputations that are ruined (although Kobe’s reputation has been somewhat rehabilitated by scoring 81 points in a game). Notably, neither were found guilty in a court of law. Yet, both are presumed by the public (whites generally)to have committed the crimes they were accused of. Does it have anything to do with race? Remember, Kobe’s accuser had a questionable past, which many complained was not a proper subject of inquiry. If you recall, she was alleged to have had sex with 3 men in a 3-day period. But again, Kobe, a black man, has suffered for the unproven accusation. You didn’t and don’t hear anyone complaining about the stigma he will endure for the rest of his life because of the unproven accusation. Why? Is it because of his race and the race of the alleged victim? Is the vehement defense of the Lacrosse team because of the race of the team and the race of the alleged victim?
We all acknowledge that it should not be about race. This case should only be about rape. Again, we must be careful with the rhetoric against the accuser. I don’t think anybody wants to suppress complaints of sexual assault, battery, and rape.
Comment by Antonio — 04.25.06 @ 1:35 pm
Cold it be possible that the injuries were a result of a previous performance during one of her dances. Didn’t she have a tube of lubricant among her possessions? Wasn’t she dancing with another stripper? What type of interaction does a group of piggy men wish to see when watching two strippers they have hired?
Comment by Belle — 04.25.06 @ 2:23 pm
Antonio:
I disagree with your assessment that the general public believes Kobe Bryant was guilty of rape. I agree that his reputation has been tarnished, but I believe it to be because he admitted to committing adultery. In that particular case, my recollection is that the defense argued the accuser in that case had sex AFTER her encounter with Kobe Bryant, yet BEFORE she was examined for evidence of rape. It boiled down to an account of he said/she said and when consent was given and when it was denied.
Since her actions were not consistent with how most would believe a rape victim would react, I believe she suffered in credibility. That didn’t prevent Kobe Bryant from settling the civil suit out of court two years later.
I think the racial issue is in the forefront of this story because the mainstream media makes it so. There have been other instances of “elite” collegiate athletes charged with sex crimes (Colorado’s football team, Lawrence Phillips of Nebraska) and they did not draw the same amount of attention in the media.
Instead, the accuser in this case has such a checkered past - her previous record, her admission that she performs “one-on-one dates” for her employer - that we smell something rotten in all of this.
Doug:
Yes, I agree that there are other news stories that will have a bigger impact on the world at large - Iraq, Iran, leaking of national security secrets - but I believe this type of story can have an impact on a much personal level.
Very few of us can influence the construction of the Iraqi government. Many of us are able to influence the behavior of our sons, brothers, daughters, sisters, and friends. We teach right versus wrong. We instruct proper manners and why we should use them. We learn from our mistakes. We learn to stop and consider what others might think of our behavior. Billy Graham has said that he has never been alone in a room with a woman that is not related to him. If only those Duke students had been taught that…
Comment by SLee — 04.25.06 @ 2:52 pm
Hey:
“So if there is foreign material that isn’t the accused or any Duke Lacrosse players, Nifong is in trouble.”
Well, he’s only in trouble if he claimed to have DNA material making a link, and he doesn’t. But I don’t think he’s made that claim.
Furthermore, evidence that she has someone else’s DNA does not mean a rape didn’t occur. It just means the prosecutor has to rely on something else.
Further, it is very hard to determine the age of bruises committed on the same day on a living body. The defence will try to lever the prostitution into a “date†on the same day as the party that may have gotten rough.”
Maybe. I know from personal experience (yardwork, sports, etc.) that some bruises, and certainly scratches, change even throughout the course of a day. Is my experience unique?
*****
Adding to what Anthonio writes, I think a gag order needs to be issued, and soon. What is happening now — from both the DA and the defense team — is an attempt to “poison” the potential jury pool by trying the case in the court of public opinion. If it keeps up, they’ll definitely have to change venues (which, for a case like this, probably won’t make a lot of difference).
But suspecting that this is going on, I put little stock in anything that comes out right now.
Comment by Kman — 04.25.06 @ 4:37 pm
For someone with better things to do, Doug sure spends a lot of time thinking about this.
Two things: if there was such a nasty scene upon the strippers’ departure (”thank your grandpa for picking the cotton for my shirt” or whatever), why is there a picture of one of the partygoers helping put the girl in the car? Not mutually exclusive, of course, but weird.
And on the topic of the sick email sent after the party, I haven’t yet seen anyone else say or write what I immediately thought when I read about it: when two people with sick senses of humor get to know each other, their communication often becomes a gross-out contest. Seen and heard that kind of thing, and worse, many times before and occasionally participated when I was young and stupid. Not something I’m proud of, and definitely to be denounced, but not necessarily an indicator of future Dahmers, or even misogynists.
LaShawn, you’re my hero. Great work on this and so much else.
Comment by Uncle Mikey — 04.25.06 @ 5:49 pm
SLee - “Billy Graham has said that he has never been alone in a room with a woman that is not related to him. If only those Duke students had been taught that…”
I’m sorry, but the mental image I got from that is Billy Graham only going on dates with his cousins…
**Fox News just reported that the father of the accuser says she is now having “strong second thoughts about testifying” - but will if the DA orders her to take the stand because “every word is true”. **
“TawanaBrawley” raises the excellent point that rape test kits make a predetermined political outcome happen under the false veneer of an actual medical diagnosis. “Injuries consistent with rape” actually mean “penetration injuries consistent with having sex or being raped within the last 3 days” and “bruise and other trauma injuries consistent withe some traumatic event within the last 24 hours.” Too many people think there is some definitive medical affirmation of “rape” by saying the patient presented symptoms. That is NOT a true medical diagnosis. Its akin to say a patient showed up with a hacking cough consistent with lung cancer. Or a bad cold. Or throat and bronchial irritation from a house dusting. But unlike lung cancer, where a true diagnosis can be made after scientific tests - medicine cannot rule rape in or out for a consenting adult.
And KMAN, despite you buying into the Feminist political logic that a womans active sexual proclivities or even prostitution should NEVER be brought up in a rape case - the uncertainty of medical testing means that her other sex acts that could have caused the same symptoms as those famously called “consistent with rape” are indeed as evidentiary in nature - as the “rape test kit” itself. What is NOT germaine is what a woman does outside the “injury window” - unless it is about past acts that bear directly on questions of behavior and credibility in the rape case.
Cousin Dave - While DNA cannot positively ID people by race, or other phsiological manifestations - with absolute certainty - it is growingly being used to determine factors like race with “high probability” instead. For example, detectives may have some DNA that shows Congoloid markers, full sickle cell trait, and a heat-resistance gene expressed only in West Coast African stock. Now, it is POSSIBLE that their suspect has a remote possibility of being a Sicilian that has the small Mediterranean population reservior’s sickle cell trait. But you add Caucasian genetic markers and the odds increase that you are looking for someone black if relatively few are found. Genetic reasearchers are now active tracing mankinds populating the Earth and researching the origins of present-day peoples to ancient stock through this technique. It works the other way too, blood found at a crime scene could cue investigators they are looking for a female, very light skinned because of melanin gene expression suppressed, with a mixture of Nordic and Japanese genes…
This is where DNA is heading. A tool for investigators and researchers to narrow down who they are looking for in the present or past based on unique markers that determine particular physiology of an individual or geographic origin of a trait discovered in the DNA of the person. For now, the Courts sensibly wish to use the “match-no match” test of certainty for conviction…but it makes sense as an investigative tool if it can rule out whole populations of potential suspects or narrow it down to say, just ethnicity, gender, etc.
Doug - I don’t know what to say. Everyone has their priorities for what story they think should dominate public attention. You like Iraq. A friend of mine is all into Bill Kristols crusade on Darfur. Another thinks all stories should take a back seat to the looming failure of medicare. But I don’t think you’ll get anywhere by telling people NOT to chase the fluff of Brad&Jen, Laci, the 3 thousand All-Important Victim Families of 9/11 while 6,889,000 other Americans have died tragically or prematurely or not since 9/11 and made a correspondingly large assembly of Victim Families that get no attention whatsoever. barring someone dictating what is newsworthy or or not - making you a MSM Potentate or a Totalitarian Dictator in the process - best leave it to the many media sources arising to give you choice and allow you the freedom to bitch to Fox that they have bored you to tears with Natalie Holloway chasing after a year and a half of their being the Laci Peterson Network…
(Though I think a us hitting Greta&Geraldo while they’re crossing the street would be a boon for our culture)
Comment by Chris Ford — 04.25.06 @ 6:53 pm
If those boys had sex with her, the most obvious defense in the world would have been to say that they PAID her for it, and that she was a hooker (which we know she was). Period. Then it would have been a she said/he said. In fact, it would probably make their defense easier if they DID say that they had sex with her.
But they didn’t say that. Why? Why deny having sex at all with her? And especially since they were minors, wouldn’t she be in trouble for having sex with minors?
The other thing I’m wondering about, and haven’t heard answered: Where were these 2 women between the time they left the house and the time they showed up at the store where stripper#2 called the cops? Did they go somewhere else? To pay their service/pimp? TO get drugs? Something else?
And why didn’t the alleged victim say anything to stripper#2?
What a farce. This is being driven by so many competing interests, having nothing to do with justice. Meanwhile, the boys suffer.
And I’m tired of hearing about how the boys are “rich, spoiled..”, etc. Some of those kids on the team are from wealthy families, but some are NOT. Geez…talk about stereotypes.
Comment by slick — 04.25.06 @ 7:19 pm
slick -
I agree that the lax players have an unpampered life, practicing say 4 hours per day (during the season), heading off to games say 25 times. They have to run regularly, I’m sure, plus get wacked with lacrosse sticks, tackled, hit with lacrosse balls. They choose that, but it is not what most folks would consider “cushy.” Then, they need to keep up in a highly competitive educational environment - a full time job for most students at Duke.
History of alcohol or drug abuse could be relevant if AV claims involuntary intoxication or that she was not impaired. Nifong implicitly claimed no impairment, one might argue, by saying the ID’s were made with 100% certainty.
Prior AV misconduct while drunk - stealing taxi - could be admitted as prior similar misconduct of modus operandi (both incidents involved alcohol, dancing naked, victimizing vulnerable males). Not a perfect fit, but probably passes the defense counsel “red face” test. Judge could exclude, if he wants to appear pro-prosecution.
Any MD who says an expert can tell an 8-hour AV bruise from an 11-hour AV bruise, without any control (meaning prior experience with that person and the same sort of trauma, same degree of force, same mechanism of injury), should probably have his or her testimony disallowed as “junk science.”
How is it that F gets his deal pulled in DC based simply on the filing of charges by Nifong? Looks like “back scratching” amongst prosecutors and former-prosecutors now serving as judges. Any idea of the judge in DC is a non-neutral former prosecutor?
Nifong looks like he may have been reported to the bar. That might explain the pulling of deals in Durham public intoxication, urinating in public, etc. cases. Nifong looks like he has become too much of a partisan. Any idea if he expects to lose on May 2? Why we do not hear daily from Freda Black about “vote for Black and not Nifong” escapes me.
Comment by cfw — 04.25.06 @ 8:24 pm
“How is it that F gets his deal pulled in DC based simply on the filing of charges by Nifong?”
This troubles me too. Really. It looks like the DC judge is jumping the gun. Usually “innocent until proven guilty” gets on my nerves because it’s misapplied but I think it applies perfectly here.
Comment by Laura(southernxyl) — 04.25.06 @ 9:30 pm
It’s hard for me to feel wholehearted support for obnoxious, racist, wealthy white guys. But they deserve to be treated fairly.
Comment by lorrie — 04.25.06 @ 11:37 pm
I could be mistaken but I believe that Bayly did void Finnerty’s deal. Instead he imposed new conditions, namely that Finnerty had to obey a curfew from 9 p.m. to 6 a.m and report each Friday to DC court officials. The judge noted in his ruling today that Finnerty had not been convicted of the rape charge. So it seems that everything is still pending.
Rather than void the plea bargain he ordered a curfew from 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. for Finnerty. In addition he is not allowed to be present anywhere where alcohol is sold or consumed and must report by telephone to Washington court officials each Friday.
In his ruling Judge Bayly said that if the is proof that the rape allegations are true Finnerty’s release would be revoked and he would be placed in jail or a halfway house.
In voiding the original conditions and imposing the new ones Bayly set a trial date of July 10 in the assault case.
Comment by James — 04.26.06 @ 12:15 am
Kman:
Not sure where you’ve been, but Nifong did crow about the DNA link he had, hence why he is now on his 2nd set of DNA tests to try and link the accused. Further, that’s why they had all the white Lacrosse players give samples. I think you’re in your own world.
As mentioned above, you just can’t tell with any degree of certainty when an injury was within a 12-24 hour period. Something that happened less than an hour ago will be obvious, thanks to bleeding and the lack of bruising, but the cw’s examination and treatment appears to be outside of this immediate injury window (with the exam somewhere around 2AM or later and alleged injury around 12:30AM). You may be able to tell how old a bruise or mark is, but an unfamiliar doctor will have no timeline if it’s past the immediate injury point (i.e. no longer bleeding) and your are still breathing (CSI style analysis does wonders on corpses, not live bodies).
I’m really shocked at your analysis if you really are a lawyer in criminal practice.
Comment by Hey — 04.26.06 @ 12:58 am
There’s no reason that any of you would have noticed, but I’ve been posting comments here for months on a number of subjects, because I like La Shawn, and find that we are in agreement on a lot of issues. Far be it from me to be a party-pooper. Go ahead-have fun talking about this case.
Comment by Doug — 04.26.06 @ 1:38 am
What I am again learning out of all this is that one can’t trust the legal system. There is a huge lack of integrity at Duke and in DC. I have higher expectations of judges. Lawyers…. well… It’s nice that they are smart but too many jokes about them. Finnerty’s plea bargin in DC shouldn’t be altered until he is convicted of something new. That judge there has overstepped his authority and is dishonest. That is the problem of getting old and making too many deals. This DC judge could also be working finnerty over based on politics. That is bad for everyone in the country.
One odd thing I saw on Oreilly is that he and Geraldo pretty much approve of the lockdown on the 2 Duke Lax teammembers so far. They must be aware of some information that they aren’t ready to talk about. They talked around it. If it’s the poltiics of big media then they are in the same bucket as the DC judge and the Duke DA.
Comment by Jd — 04.26.06 @ 3:34 am
“obnoxious, racist, wealthy white guys”
Neither of the lax players have wealth, technically. If the DAD has a house in the Hamptons, that makes him walthy, not the kid. Punishing kids for balance sheets of dads makes no sense. $20 k in monthly income (ballpark for S’s dad) does not suggest wealth that calls for prejudice.
No evidence ties any racist remarks to F or S. Trusting Roberts or AV as source of “nigger” comments looks unreasonable (and no one has fingered F or S for any comments, good or bad). Bissey also looks like he has not recalled correctly, or he has fabricated, based on the bizarre non-preppy insult claimed (thank gramps for the cotton shirt).
Obnoxious - let’s recall the 1st Amendment. Roberts and AV had rights to dance, and lax players had rights to watch. Nothing in 10 commandments that I recall says no looking at women taking off clothes. Calling for asexuality would of course doom the species.
James -
“I could be mistaken but I believe that Bayly did void Finnerty’s deal.”
Putting F on house arrest from 9 to 6 is voiding the deal, in my view.
“The judge noted in his ruling today that Finnerty had not been convicted of the rape charge.”
Then why put F in the house from 9 to 6? Implicit in the new requirement is Bayly supports Nifong, finds the charges just. No evidence considered, just “old boy network” approach.
Comment by cfw — 04.26.06 @ 8:46 am
Hey writes:
“Not sure where you’ve been, but Nifong did crow about the DNA link he had, hence why he is now on his 2nd set of DNA tests to try and link the accused.”
Well, he either has a DNA link to the accused, or he’s trying to get one. Make up your mind.
As mentioned above, you just can’t tell with any degree of certainty when an injury was within a 12-24 hour period.
Sure you can. If you receive, say, a cut, the cells starts regenerating and new tissue starts forming right away. Obviously, the further back in time you received the cut, the more new tissue you have (even at the microscopic level). Although you can’t pinpoint the minute the injury was received, you can generally get a ballpark estimation of the hour, especially for recent cuts.
All this would involve microscopic examination and lab work — I don’t know if this was done in this case (I suspect not). But it is possible.
“I’m really shocked at your analysis if you really are a lawyer in criminal practice.”
Used to be in criminal practice. But I changed areas.
New subject:
Am I the only one who doesn’t “get” the race issue?
Everyone keeps saying this case is “about race”, but I honestly don’t see what the race issue is. Yes, the alleged victim was black. Yes, the lacrosse players were almost all white. So?
I was listening to NPR this morning and they announced an upcoming report about the Duke rape case and the race issues it has raised. So I listened, and all they did (and all the interviewees did) was point out the race of the strippers and the team. Well, I know that. But what exactly is the issue?
Comment by Kman — 04.26.06 @ 10:08 am
“Do you notice that very few people complain or write about the “lack of diversity†of football and basketball teams? Both sports are overwhelmingly dominate by blacks, yet not a peep. Not a serious peep, at any rate.”
Heh heh…My husband is an avid college basketball/football fan. I’m not. I stare at the screen to be sociable sometimes, but I’m not really watching the game. Every now and then, I count black faces and white faces…and the thought has occurred to me that we need more token whites…!!!
Comment by suek — 04.26.06 @ 5:36 pm
Independent Conservative says that Mr. McNeil, the accuser’s ex husband is the Father of her 2 children and should be supporting and taking care of them as well as his ex wife.
Truth is, her children are not his. She got pregnant both times while in the Navy serving on a submarine.
Mr. McNeil has no obligation whatsoever to support her 2 children.
Comment by Margaret Taft — 04.26.06 @ 6:55 pm
I had a post about the medical issues a week ago. I am surprised that more doctors don’t get in on these blogs(we only work 12-14 hours a day). The timing of the bruising will not be exact. It is true that there are too many variables. For instance, if you take an apirin, your platelets will be less functional and you will bruise more quickly and more profoundly than you would if you weren’t taking aspirin. The average ED physician or family physician, etc. is not a very good forensic witness. Rape is not a medical diagnosis, it is a legal concept.
Comment by TEX ER DOC — 04.26.06 @ 7:55 pm
suek (58)
I think if you look at all the college programs Division I, II, & III, not just the ones that are on TV all the time, I bet you’ll find more “white” than “black” athletes (basketball & football).
Comment by Gerald — 04.26.06 @ 8:36 pm
If av served on a submarine, that would suggest an elite navy person. Also a bit crazy. I did not know they had women on subs. A bit surprising she did not serve until honorably discharged, if she actually served on a sub. Possibly discharged medically, or based on drug offense.
Per USA Today, looks like AV may have “embroidered” if she claimed she served on a sub (as opposed to in a support role):
“The panel recommended that the Navy start by allowing female officers to serve on Ohio-class ballistic missile submarines, sometimes referred to as Trident submarines or ‘boomers.’ The Navy has 18 of these submarines in service, and they are the largest in the fleet.”
“The panel also recommended that the Navy redesign its new Virginia-class attack submarines to accommodate women. The first one won’t be commissioned until 2006, so conversions are possible. But the cost for reconfiguring these vessels is estimated at $4 million to $5 million each.”
“This begs the question of why the new submarines weren’t designed with women in mind. According to Cmdr. Brian Cullin, press secretary to Navy Secretary Richard Danzig, there were two reasons: ‘It would compromise an already pretty tight habitability situation for the men on board. Two… any increase to accommodations would cut into the war-fighting capability of the platform.’ In other words, such a design ‘would have a negative impact on operational capability.’”
“In general, the idea of converting submarines to accommodate coed crews has raised two primary concerns. Chief among them is privacy. Submarine crews of 130 to 140 men share the space equivalent to that of a medium-sized home, with few bathrooms and showers and little or no privacy. To sleep, men slip into racks that are stacked three or four high. They change clothes next to their beds, and they sometimes ‘hotbunk’ or share their racks with others on alternating shifts.”
Not a great place for the claustrophobic, drug users or mentally imbalanced, eh?
Comment by cfw — 04.26.06 @ 11:48 pm
Tex ER Doc,
I’m a med student following this case and I’d love to read the post you mentioned writing a few weeks ago. Do you have a link to it? (Clicking on name goes to aol.com?)
Comment by Cat — 04.27.06 @ 8:52 am
Do you notice that very few people complain or write about the “lack of diversity†of football and basketball teams? Both sports are overwhelmingly dominate by blacks, yet not a peep. Not a serious peep, at any rate.
I know whatcha mean, LaShawn. I remember growing up watching Syracuse basketball. Whenever we played G’Town, I SERIOUSLY do not remember seeing ONE white player on Thompson’s bench. On the other hand, Jimmy B’s teams were almost always about 50/50 black/white. And I don’t ever recall being swept by GT in any season (even in the Ewing years)
Comment by BigOrangeAxe — 04.27.06 @ 9:53 am
So what’s next? Disband the hockey teams? Eliminate the swim teams?
Comment by SLee — 04.27.06 @ 10:11 am
I read a recent Durham Herald editorial about revoking deferred prosecution deals. The endorsement issued by the Herald seems superficial and probably wrong-headed.
How often do deferred prosecution deals get offered in Durham and then revoked based on hosting a party where underage drinking may have occurred (plus exotic dancing )?
What examples, if any, can DA Nifong or the Durham Herald give to show any lax players definitely did what routinely passes for misconduct warranting revocation?
Same questions about Finnerty’s problems in DC.
It looks like selective prosecution to me. Why does it become ok to “grind” lax players (revoke deals for no reason or no normal reason) because DA Nifong has gone out on a limb with a weak (to put in mildly) rape case?
Comment by cfw — 04.27.06 @ 8:51 pm
Duke Rape Allegations Not The First For Alleged Victim
Th accuser made a rape claim ten years ago for an incident she said happened three years earlier. Interesting coincidence: she said three men had raped and beaten her. No one was ever charged.Hmm …
Trackback by Riehl World View — 04.27.06 @ 8:59 pm
Re: …. NOT THE FIRST FOR THE ALLEGED VICTIM.
Ya know, folks, with news like this, it makes it more and more likely that District Atty. Nifong will be available after May 2 to take that NC State B-ball coaching job.
Stuart E.
Comment by Stuart E. — 04.27.06 @ 10:26 pm
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2424601
A phone number for the accuser has been disconnected, and her father said Thursday night he remembered little about the incident except going with police to a home where he said his daughter was being held “against her will.”
Asked if she was sexually assaulted, he said, “I can’t remember.” In an interview with the News & Observer of Raleigh, posted Thursday night on the paper’s Web site, he said the men “didn’t do anything to her.”
>>>>
Don’t tell me she has a history of false allegations. Hoodathunkit?
JoAnn
Comment by JoAnn — 04.28.06 @ 12:16 am
55. says:
What I am again learning out of all this is that one can’t trust the legal system.
The legal system in the 20s was corrupted by alcohol prohibition. It was one of many reasons that “experiment” was ended.
So what is corrupting our system these days? Another prohibition. Drug prohibition. DAs know police are “testilying” and expect to make cases stick under those circumstances. They look the other way to get a conviction.
Shoddy practices in one area lead to shoddy practices in other areas.
My guess is that the DA expected to make the lies of the AV stick. As he probably did in so many other cases. Trouble is the AV does not have the automatic credibility a police officer has.
Comment by M. Simon — 04.28.06 @ 12:16 am
Come on, LeShawn! I don’t believe you can’t see the racism with the Duke Lacrosse Team. It is as plain as the nose on your face. The two criminals are white and the victim is black. There can be no other explanation except this is a hate crime and a rape case all rolled into one. Those two boys are guilty because they are white! The accuser is committing a hate crime because she is accusing these two poor slobs only because they are white! And that racist Ralph Sharpton is pushing it!
Comment by Scott Hammond — 04.28.06 @ 1:02 am
I’d like to see a copy of the victim’s previous allegation of rape (ten years before) and see if her story then of being raped by three men for a lengthy period of time has any similarity to her present account.
Also, I’d like to see her navy service record. If she claimed to have been on a submarine (I’m not sure she claimed this), then I’d like to know if women are (were) allowed to serve on submarines.
And then, if all of this turns out to have been a false accusation, I’d like to see a NEWSWEEK cover with “We Retract!”; or maybe just a large “Innocent!” (which is what I think they owe the accused).
(But I won’t be holding my breath.)
Comment by Seahawk — 04.28.06 @ 1:43 am
Finnerty is essentially a political prisoner. My jaw would have dropped a few years ago that the United States would start creating political prisoners.
Comment by Jd — 04.28.06 @ 2:06 am
Cried wolf
La Shawn Barber updates on the Duke lacrosse case: she writes that ten years ago the accuser claimed being raped by three men three years earlier….
Trackback by Pajamas Media — 04.28.06 @ 7:07 am
The Smoking Gun has a copy of the police report from the original “Three Men Raped Me” collection. It is does not include a whole lot of information. However, one would think that if a child had been “beaten and raped continually”, that the police would have prosecuted or at least attempted to prosecute. Very little in the national news about the involvement of racist, hate group, The New Black Panther Party. I am sure anyone speaking out against them, will be accused of racism.
Comment by belle — 04.28.06 @ 11:03 am
Even if the charges are dropped and charges are filed against the accuser, there will be people who say that it does not matter if there was no rape. They will continue to say that the stripper was raped and that someone should have to pay. I hear Duke is going to allow New Black Panthers on the campus. Sick isn’t it?
Comment by belle — 04.28.06 @ 11:07 am
LaShawn
the smoking gun does have a copy of the police report from the previous rape allegation. While the report in question is redacted Ie blacked out names, it does carry the description “B/M” after two of the blacked out names. I take this to mean “black male” in police lingo. That should answer your question about the race of the accused in the prior claim.
Thanks Gary, but the question was rhetorical. Without looking at the report or knowing details about the previous allegation, I figured they were black. - Admin
Comment by Gary Maxwell — 04.28.06 @ 12:13 pm
Another interesting note on racism in Durham area. At the “Apple Chill” street festival in Chapel Hill, NC, there were several shootings, all gang related. According to the paper one of the shooters was actually out on bail for previous drug and assault charges and was actually let out on bail again after being charged with shooting somebody on Franklin Street. Go figure.
Comment by belle — 04.28.06 @ 12:44 pm
The Rape Shiled Laws have to be changed, most lawyers are saying that this kind of evidence wont come in. So I dont knowhow it couldnt, that to me, shows a pattern.
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.28.06 @ 1:35 pm
The ‘victim’s daddy is now claiming a broom handle was involved… although the police didn’t look for one.
Maybe he’s just confusing Sodomy with her usual mode of transportation?
Comment by DANEgerus — 04.28.06 @ 4:24 pm
April 28, 2006
This just in. The New Black Panthers have arrived in Durham to provide “security” for the accuser.
They are also distributing pamphlets calling for an end to the “disrespect” from Duke University.
Sounds like … is getting ready for a riot, with the New Panthers providing organizers for the indigeneous thugs and gangsters of Durham.
Hopefully, if they do invade the Duke campus, the first building they trash will be the Feminazi center.
Comment by Margaret Taft — 04.28.06 @ 4:29 pm
The rape shield law should not cover AV’s prior unsubstantiated report of rape with three assailants.
Rape means violence against woman (or man), not private sex choice protected by the right to privacy. Rape is assault and battery, highly aggravated, and not a free choice as to sex. AV does not now say the sex before (in 1993) was consensual, only that she was fearful and chose not to proceed.
If AV reported highly aggravated violence against her person, rape, and then dropped the charges, that does not get excluded as private sexual history that AV should not have to discuss.
Relevance still needs to be established - dropped rape charges are probably relevant as to credibility. The new allegations realte to 13 year old events. But two three-assailant rapes (one not pursued to trial) suggests credibility issues despite the passage of time.
The Judge may say F and S can simply note the prior complaint was made and then dropped, as a middle ground.
But the Judge should not equate alleged 1993 rape with irrelevant consensual sex. Irrelevant consensual sex is what privacy shield laws are designed to make off limits, not relevant prior alleged violent rape.
How does one get a broom plus 3 lax players (two at over 6 feet and over 170 lbs each) plus the AV (any idea as to her height and weight?) in a small bathroom for 30 minutes and use the broom for rape with a foreign object?
No one claims the handle was cut down. A broom plus handle is five feet or so in length. One needs a bedroom-sized room, not a bathroom, or a lot of time and cooperation, yes?
If AV had 100% recall about F and S, plus 90% recall regarding X, how did she forget to mention the broom in the bathroom?
Dad of AV looks like he needs to give himself a gag order.
Comment by cfw — 04.28.06 @ 6:14 pm
Some of the feminists in the media, are really sweating this case. YOu can see it in their faces.
Susan Filan, looks like she really is sweating a bucket full on this case daily. But you would seem if those who brought forth Rape Shield laws should of took more time to think about women who would take advantage of this law. How can we have a law that says that what comes out of a womans mouth is always truth, and that she should be able to dictate the law?
Comment by tawanabrawley — 04.28.06 @ 6:21 pm
FYI, as a 20 year veteran of the U.S. Navy and a retired submariner, I can state without reservation that AV was not assigned as a member of any US submarine as women have never been elegible for that duty and are still not to this day. She may have been on board for some sea trials testing or other temporary event, but she could not have been assigned as ships crew.
Comment by Richard Wilson — 04.28.06 @ 7:45 pm
I have come to believe that many, many people would benefit from a brief history lesson, especially since the Duke Lacrosse rape case began almost to the day on the 75th anniversary of another important criminal case, perhaps the most significant in all of American jurisprudance with respect to civil rights and the rights of the accused. I’m referring to the ‘Scottsboro Boys’ rape case in Alabama, which began on 25 March 1931. The parallels betweent the Duke and Scottsboro cases are striking almost to the point of exactness, yet the lessons of so many years ago have been forgotten — that is, if they had ever been learned at all.
ORIGINS
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The case begins in an ugly, racially charged brawl on a freight train between a large number of black youths and a smaller number of white men. The white men lost, and were tossed from the train.
DURHAM, 2006: The case begins in an ugly, racially charged argument over money in a residential neighborhood between a large number of white youths and two black women. The black women lost, and left the property.
INTERVENION
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: In the aftermath of the brawl, a dragnet at the local railroad yard results in the detention of a number of people, including many of the black youths from the brawl and two lower class white women.
DURHAM, 2006: In the aftermath of the argument, police take into custody one lower class black woman. She, along with a second lower class black woman, had been among the principals in the earlier argument.
ACCUSATION
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: Facing possible charges, one of the white women claims she had been gang raped by 12 negro youths, some of the youths who had participated in the earler brawl.
DURHAM, 2006: Facing possible charges, the black woman taken into custody claims she had been gang raped by 3 white youths, some of the youths who had participated in the earlier argument.
CORROBORATION
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The other white woman changes her initial story. She eventually claims that both she and the original accuser were gang raped.
DURHAN, 2006: The other black woman changes her initial story. She eventually claims that she believes that the accuser was gang raped.
EXAMINATION
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The two white accusers were examined by a doctor, who declared that both women exhibited genital symptoms “consistent†with forcible rape.
DURHAM, 2006: The black accuser was examined by medical personnel who declared that the woman exhibited genital symptoms consistent with forcible rape.
IDENTIFICATION
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The two white accusers were allowed to “identify†their attackers from among the black youths apprehended at the railroad yard.
DURHAM, 2006: The black accuser was allowed to “identify†her attackers from among photographs of men who attended the party that preceded the argument.
ALIBI
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: One of the accused youths was charged despite having been riding in a different railroad car at the time of the alleged rape.
DURHAM, 2006: One of the accused youths was charged despite having been provably elsewhere at the time of the alleged rape.
FORENSICS
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The accused were charged despite the finding that semen taken from the two accusers was found to be non-motile. This would be consistent with a finding that the semen was deposited long before the alleged rape supposedly occured. Also, charges were brought despite the fact that the accusers were found to lack evidence of non-genital injuries consistent with their allegations. NO physical evidence therefore existed to substantiate any allegation of rape.
DURHAM, 2006: The accused were charged despite the finding that possible semen and other samples taken from the accuser yielded DNA that differed from that of the accused and from everyone else known to have possibly attended the party on the night in question. Also, charges were brought despite the fact that photographic evidence from the night in question demonstrates that various bruises and non-genital injuries sustained by the accuser were evident BEFORE the alleged rape occured. NO physical evidence therefore existed to substantiate any allegation of rape.
PREJUDICE
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The case was prosecuted in a community where whites held all political power, and where blacks were deeply resented. The prevailing attitude is best summed up in the trial judge’s instruction to the jury: He told the jury it should very strongly presume that NO white woman would voluntarily consent to sexual relations with a negro.
DURHAM, 2006: The case is being prosecuted in a community where blacks hold the balance of political power, and where (especially well-to-do) whites are deeply resented. The prevailing attitude is best summed up in a widely published opinion by various observers: It has been opined that since the accused (or their friends) had allegedly asked specifically for BLACK strippers to attend their party, the clear presumption should be that the accused acted with premeditation in planning an eventual rape.
AMIBITION
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The case was prosecuted by a politically ambitious District Attorney who shamelessly played to racial prejudices of his community.
DURHAM, 2006: The case is being prosecuted by a politically ambitious District Attorney who shamelessly plays to racial and social prejudices of his community.
ABANDONMENT
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The NAACP, the supposed premeir advocacy group for the black community in the U.S. declined to grant any assistance to the accused, or to lobby on their behalf, or on behalf of fair trial procedures in their case. The organization feared possible PR backlash in the event the accused were convicted or proven guilty of the crime.
DURHAM, 2006: Both Duke University, where the accused attend school, and the mainstream media were quick to apparantly accept the accuser’s story, and to villify the accused. For its part, Duke precipitously fired the lacrosse coach, cancelled the entire season, and reportedly suspended all white members of the team from school.
CREDIBILITY
SCOTTSBORO, 1931: The two accusers were eventually found to be common prostitutes and women of generally low morals.
DURHAM, 2006: Both the accuser and the other woman have been found to be common prostitutes and women of generally low morals, having both been convicted of serious crimes. Moreover, the accuser had made an apparently false accusation of gang rape against three males 10 years ago.
CONCLUSION
The Scottsboro defendants were all quickly convicted and sentenced to death. This happened more than once, in fact, since their convictions were three times overturned on appeal by the U.S. Supreme Court. Though none was ever executed, the last defendant wasn’t released from prison until 1950. The case was recognized as a watershed event even at the time, so I’m practically amazed that it has been forgotten in our OWN time, when we so casually pride ourselves on how far we’ve come as a society in upholding justice, civil rights, and the rule of law.
The Scottsboro Case wasn’t a cause celebre because the defendants were such fine, upstanding citizens — far from it. It was a cause celebre because judicial practices as applied in their case were patently UNFAIR, and offered them no legitimate opportunity for a legal defense. This is exactly what we see today in the Duke rape case. In fact, the cases so closely, so exactly touch upon the same issues that anyone who can appreciate the injustice of the one, MUST acknowledge the injustice of the other. If the Scottsboro Case was a travesty of justice, then the Duke case is a travesty of justice. I’ll go further: If the Duke case embodies a legitimate exercise in jurisprudence, then the Scottsboro Case did equally so, the defendants were justly convicted, and by right should have been put to death. Now I ask, who DARES to argue this last point. Any prosecutor who is unaware of the Scottsboro Case or who cannot see the parallels to the current day, does not deserve to try a case anywhere in the United States of America.
Comment by SteveDinMD — 04.28.06 @ 10:25 pm
More complications to consider:
Since there is no statute of limitations on rape in N. Carolina, can the three men named in the original allegation ten years ago still be arrested and charged?
(Although with the amount of time that has passed, I doubt they could be either charged or cleared, wouldn’t this lay like a pall over their lives–an unresolved rape charge?
And would that constitute defamation or slander?
And how would they clear their names of that?)
Comment by Seahawk — 04.28.06 @ 11:07 pm
Think of all the folks in jail for using drugs that are not approved by th