America was founded by Christians and theists who appealed to the Bible as they created what would become the greatest country in the world, but America is not, never was, and never will be a “Christian” nation. We live in a pluralistic society where people are free to worship golden calves if they desire.
Given the principle of freedom of religion, it’s only a matter of time before more Americans who practice Islam insist that their religious holidays days be recognized, just as Christian and Jewish holidays are recognized.
Muslims in Baltimore County, Maryland, have gone so far as to demand that Muslim holidays be added to the school calendar. After the request was rejected, they called for the removal of Jewish holidays.
Someone not affiliated with the school said the cost of using substitutes for absent Jewish teachers is high, so students get those days off, too. [Clarification: I assume kids get those days off. Don’t quote that until I check it.] When acquiring substitutes for Muslim teachers becomes “too costly,” the school board may reconsider. That’s logical. But I don’t like it.
[Update: Commenter Christine says: “I grew up in Montgomery County Maryland, and yes we did (and the kids still do– at the moment) get Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur off…We’re one of the few school systems in the country that does this.”]
I don’t like the idea of government schools in America observing the holidays of a religion I believe is incompatible with the very principles that allow its adherents in America to worship their god in peace. It’s a strange and twisted irony. Islamic governments would balk at such notions as “worship their god in peace.” Again, it’s ironic. 
For discussion:
1) The government recognizes and observes certain “Christian” and Jewish holidays. Should it recognize and observe Muslim holidays where economically feasible? Why or why not?
2) Would it lead to a “slippery slope?”
Sources and Resources:
I have no problem with Muslim holidays being observed in public schools. The problems of public schools go far beyond what holidays are being celebrated. Weak administrators, ravenous teachers unions, lax discipline in the classroom, political correctness, anti-Christian hate groups such as the ACLU, and the breakdown of families pose a far greater threat to public education than a Muslim holiday ever could.
Comment by Mwalimu Daudi — 06.08.06 @ 5:39 pm
I agree that the other stuff is a problem, too, but I’m worried about the unintended consequences of the government observing Muslim holidays. If their requests are not met, will Muslims demand that we not observe Christmas, for instance? Will the government end up banning all religious observances? It may sound far-fetched, but…
As a religious minority, they may not be much of a threat, but what happens when their number reaches a critical mass, whatever that may be? I hope commenters will address this concern when answering the “slippery slope” question.
Comment by La Shawn — 06.08.06 @ 5:59 pm
I concede the issue to the ACLU. As one who believes that the public schools are best suited for secularists, I favor the growth of private schools, home schooling and vouchers. In fact, I believe the decline of the public school system is one of the best things that has happened for reinvigorating the family and reawakening responsible parenting.
Therefore, I support banning all religious holidays from the public school calendar. (Of course, there will be the “late November holiday” to prepare for the upcoming “winter break” in late December. There will be a “spring break” that will float in March in April and marks the week when rich kids go to Daytona Beach or Cancun.
Along with all this, I support the concept that no public school permit any person wearing any religious symbol of any nature or reading any religious work of any nature written by any person for any reason. This includes The Declaration of Independence or singing “God Bless America” or saying the “Pledge of Allegiance.”
Since Martin Luther King was an ordained minister and preached Christianity, his writings should be banned and his birthday should not be celebrated in the public schools.
Every socialist state has driven God from the public square. The time has come in our representative democracy to trade the public schools to the socialists in exchange for the tax relief that enables parents to choose the value system in which their children are educated.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.08.06 @ 6:08 pm
Pagans are us
Comment by Renee — 06.08.06 @ 6:30 pm
LaShawn you said
“I don’t like the idea of government schools in America observing the holidays of a religion I believe is incompatible with the very principles that allow its adherents in America to worship their god in peace. It’s a strange and twisted irony. Islamic governments would balk at such notions as “worship their god in peace.â€
I completely agree, and it’s a big reason why I feel this Iraq War was the biggest waste of Taxpayer money. You can’t spread freedom to a culture that is not compatible with a capitaist/ separation of church and state democracy. Throwing government money at a social problem never solves anything; foreign or domestic.
As to schools, I strongly believe in the separation of church and state, and I believe getting Government out of public schools would best preserve this since if the school system was to be privatized, parents who were secular could send their kids to secular schools, and parents who wanted their children educated in a environment where religion (of their choice) is important could send their kids to such a school.
People wouldn’t care about ten commandment displays and school prayer, or whether or not muslim holidays should be honored, since you could go to a school that shared your values.
Libertarianism makes sense when it comes to education.
Comment by libertarianjoe — 06.08.06 @ 6:35 pm
More reason to HOMESCHOOL!!!
Problem solved.
Comment by Renee — 06.08.06 @ 6:43 pm
#2 LaShawn reminds us to consider the “slippery slope.”
When I began teaching high school in the early sixties, we had Christmas parties in the class room. Then we had to balance them out with dradle games. Before long, the regular orchestra performance in December was canceled. (You know what words are going through your evil mind when they play “Silent Night.)
By the time I retired, we could not have graduation on a Friday night or Saturday. Baccalaureate was discontinued.
In the nineties, I had a student from Afghanistan who had to leave the room to do his prayers. We had a full-blown “problem” over the fact that the administration was “belittling him” because they asked him to use a spot that was away from the general corridors.
Slippery slope? I would call it a mudslide.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.08.06 @ 6:45 pm
I agree with libertarianjoe,
If the government is going to get into the school business, they should stop the holidays (it’s not like they properly “observe” anyway. (Personally the government should not be in the school business AT ALL and tax payers should not have to pay for this social experiment because it is nothing but an indoctrination into secular humanism).
I don’t see how the government can, in the long run, deny the Muslim holidays based on the constitution or some rogue judges interpretation of it. Eventually they will have to allow it or deny all relgiious holidays (just one of the things that happens when we seperate the Christian concepts that the help build the country from current practices…as we are seeing the constitution is turning into a rather useless flimsy document without its foundational thoughts). There is a slippery slope (or mudlside) regardless. We see it now with schools in CA teaching muslim prayers and how to pray to “allah” and other stuff to kids but something Christian…are you on crack? God forbid they read “Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God” by Jonathan Edwards (which used to be read in many classes).
I don’t know which way they will go but things won’t be the same.
Comment by Renee — 06.08.06 @ 6:54 pm
I have a different take on this thing. Remember after 9/11, how GWB kept referring to Islam as a religion of peace? Ticked me off at the time, for two reasons: I was mad as hell, and I don’t think it’s appropriate for a religion to be characterized by someone who is not of it.
But later I reconsidered. Islam is here, and it’s here to stay. Muslims aren’t going anywhere. I don’t want an America where Islam is banned or Muslims deported. The only thing to do is to call out and encourage those Muslims who are willing to live peacefully and to get with the program - and there are millions of them. There must be, or the amber waves of grain would already be one huge cinder. We’ve got to marginalize the bad guys and assimilate the good guys. That’s really the only solution to this horrible mess, unless you have a spaceship I don’t know about.
I don’t want to see religion excluded from the public schools, and I don’t see the Constitution requiring it. I do think reasonable accomodation ought to be made to Muslim kids who need to pray - whyever not? And if Christian and Jewish holidays are to be recognized, then Muslim holidays should be too. If you keep on telling people that they’re second-class and they’ll never get the consideration other people get, you are breeding the next generation of criminals and terrorists.
Comment by Laura(southernxyl) — 06.08.06 @ 7:20 pm
There’s also option number 3 La Shawn,
Do what we are really good at …absolutely nothing…pretend eveyone is happy and there is no elephant in the room and then be surprised when chaos ensues.
Comment by Renee — 06.08.06 @ 7:25 pm
La Shawn,
I agree (at least partially) with your position in #2. And like Heliotrope, I favor the growth of private education and home schooling.
As for vouchers, I like the idea of the government selling public schools for a dollar each and getting out of the education business altogether. Vouchers for private schools and home schooling only! (Public disclosure - I teach in a private Christian school)
I have no problems with Muslim holidays in the public schools because it is like painting the deck chairs of the Titanic. The ship of public education is going under for the reasons in #1, so I cannot see how it makes a real difference.
Now, as to the slippery slope - I point to Renee’s post (#8). Islam is appearing in public schools already. Could Muslims demand that Christmas not be observed if they fail to get Muslim holidays? Perhaps (likely, actually), but I see no reason why Christmas could be “un-observed” anyway - Muslim holidays or no. Don’t forget the secularists and their war on anything remotely Christian! That seems to me to be a more likely scenario.
Comment by Mwalimu Daudi — 06.08.06 @ 7:37 pm
LaShawn, the problem is that even if “authentic” Islam is more in line with the Wahabists than with liberal, cultural Muslims, why should we care about what “real” Islam is? If we can make the liberal Muslims like America more (instead of listening to them condone terrorism) by giving a day or two off for Ramadan, so be it. I’ve never been to a school that gave us Christmas and Easter off, but there was a “Winter Break”.
Renee, I went to school in Cali — specifically, in Cupertino, home of Apple Computer and plenty of techno-hippies. In junior high, we spent a couple of weeks on Islam, listening to videos of prisoners talking about how Islam made their lives better, etc. Fine with me; it’s good to learn about such things. I did think it was pretty ridiculous that there was no such explanation of Judaism or Christianity, but oh well. In high school, my US History teacher not only had us read “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God,” but explained TULIP to us as well. Not bad for a public school.
Rick
Comment by Rick Morris — 06.08.06 @ 7:44 pm
Rick,
When did you go to highschool ?
Comment by Renee — 06.08.06 @ 7:48 pm
What I find interesting is the thought that we can all hold hands, sing Kumbiya (sp?) and learn everything under the sun and be happy….
without the foundation that gave us the freedom…does it not appear that we are sliding further away from that “freedom” and so called liberty….(I wonder what the conversation will be like 5 years from now)
it only makes sense…when the foundation goes the house crumbles
Comment by Renee — 06.08.06 @ 7:51 pm
Baltimore COUNTY schools also refused to add Muslim holidays to the calendar. However, they increased the number of excused days out of school to account for the Muslim holidays. The local Muslim groups have said they will continue to have days added or else they want days removed.
Comment by DarkStar — 06.08.06 @ 8:33 pm
I am curious why they want the Jewish ones removed, and not the Christian. Though aside from Christmas, sorry, Winter, break, not much of that left on the average school calendar.
Personally, I think schools should be more like many business, and seprate sick days from other absences. Allow X number of sick, Y number of floating holidays.
Comment by SCSIwuzzy — 06.08.06 @ 8:47 pm
OMG—-EVERYONE:
You’ve got to read Ann Coulter’s Chapter 6 in “Godless”. She rips the lid off the public school system.
In fact, I’m suggesting, anyone reading Ann Coulter’s new book—-start with Chapter 6. There is so much good information in there. And, I haven’t always liked her, but I agree totally with everything she says about Government schools.
Comment by Glamchild — 06.08.06 @ 8:57 pm
Keep religion out of school public school. It doesn’t belong there.
Comment by Jack — 06.08.06 @ 9:19 pm
Religion is already in scholl…
it’s called secular humanism
Comment by Renee — 06.08.06 @ 10:07 pm
that’s not hard. freedom of religion. and as for the slippery slope goes. christians don’t seem to understand that there is a reason we practice seperation of church and state. Either you recognize ALL the religious holidays practiced in the school system or NONE. the tax money is from muslims just like jews and christians so if you aren’t going to recognize muslim holidays then give them back their tax money and just collect from the christians and jews IF you are going to give the priveledge and respect to them.
Comment by mike d — 06.08.06 @ 10:35 pm
#9 Laura raises the issue of the growing Muslim population in the US and how and whether it will blend with the culture.
Radical Islam has declared jihad on the population of the world that is outside of their circle. Unfortunately, the radicals have not been controlled from within the greater Islamic population.
If you just barely scratch the surface of the belief system of radical Islamists, you will quickly learn that they hold beliefs that are antithetical to cooperation between different religions.
These life-threatening differences are not going to be worked out by declaring a few Muslim holidays. However, Germany has actually gone down that road.
#10 Renee speaks of “the elephant in the room”. It may actually be a herd of elephants in the room.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.08.06 @ 10:42 pm
As a Jew, I find it beyond infuriating that the same lie is propagated year after year. Namely, what Jewish holidays cause public schools to close??? Where I live: NONE!!! That’s right. If a Jewish child observes Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, the school is still open and the student will have to make up missed work. Growing up, I had the same issues. The most certainly is a Christian country, which I have no trouble accepting, and Christian holidays are what should be observed officially. Because some small group has a problem with Christmas is irrelevent. Accept where you live or leave.
I have to double-check the post because I may some facts wrong. I assumed the Baltimore County schools closed on Jewish holidays. I may be in error. - Admin
Comment by Mr. Kafir — 06.08.06 @ 11:08 pm
You raise a reasonable point, Renee, but I graduated high school in 2003. I think that is recent enough to retain credibility.
Comment by Rick Morris — 06.09.06 @ 12:06 am
Christmas has been a federal holiday since 1871. Can you imagine that! I think that’s just downright old fashioned and extremely secular in our most enlightened, multi-cultural modern world and Christmas should be abolished as a legal holiday immediately, meaning, of course, that all federal employees should report for work on December 25 as they do every other normal working day.
And by the way, Santa, from now on, you and Rudolph should just stay tucked in there at the North Pole on Dec. 25. It’s far too cold in this country for even you and Rudolph to get out on your sleigh any more.
Get ye to work and school everybody and forget all this foolishness.
Bah Humbug
Comment by dianne — 06.09.06 @ 12:14 am
Hmm.. Interesting post. For my opinion, they shouldn’t bother observing any religious holidays - officially. If you want to take a day off, do it. That goes for teachers or students. BUT, I don’t think teachers should get paid for days they take off, and inconveniences they cause the system should be penalized accordingly, regardless of religions.
Comment by Robert Nanders — 06.09.06 @ 12:21 am
secular humanism
Oy, it is called following the dictates of the Constitution. It is a matter of looking out for the smallest and not just the biggest.
There is such a thing as the tyranny of the majority.
Comment by Jack — 06.09.06 @ 1:13 am
Jack -
“Keep religion out of school public school. It doesn’t belong there.”
Better to keep the public out of public schools.
Comment by SickAndTired — 06.09.06 @ 1:19 am
‘Siyo Friends, if you can read the Koran and related ‘pillars’ of this political ideology and still call it a ‘religion’ then add their holidays’. Islam is not a religion as in ‘peace and love’. Islam is a totalitarian world domination political movement. When their (Muslim)numbers reach 10% or more in a local community they ‘take’ control of that community. Check out some of the larger cities in MI, OH, SC, GA, MO, IL, CA, NY. The head of the FL-ACLU is a Muslim. Think about it - I Spread Lies And Misery=ISLAM
Bear
Comment by Bear — 06.09.06 @ 7:00 am
“Oy, it is called following the dictates of the Constitution. ”
You’re good at using the standard mantras
Comment by Renee — 06.09.06 @ 8:58 am
I grew up in Montgomery County Maryland, and yes we did (and the kids still do– at the moment) get Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur off.
We’re one of the few school systems in the country that does this.
Comment by Christine — 06.09.06 @ 8:59 am
What Constitution? The one we don’t follow? The one we reinterpret to fit whatever we think is cool for the decade? Oh that document…
(I hear it going down the toilet…if we hurry we might catch it)
Comment by Renee — 06.09.06 @ 9:00 am
Thanks, Christine. Do you know if Baltimore County schools also close?
Comment by La Shawn — 06.09.06 @ 9:01 am
If the American culture finds significance in Christmas, and wants the day off, so be it. The fact that Christmas has a religious background is immaterial. It is a day of historical and cultural significance to America, so we’ve made it a national holiday.
If there’s a Muslim day that has historical and cultural significance to America, we’ll take that day off too.
Comment by Andi — 06.09.06 @ 9:10 am
I must say, I thought this issue was pretty trivial until you mentioned the words “slippery slope.” Then I got chills. Slippery slopes are, of course, the worst slopes you can imagine. Nothing stops them once they start. We all know that gay marriage will lead to people marrying their pets and livestock and that smoking marijuana once leads to heroin addiction. But I’m afraid we may have already initiated this school holiday slippery slope by recognizing Jewish holidays. Certainly, if we let the Muslims have holidays, too, soon we will have to schedule holidays for every religion on Earth and I’m afraid that will lead to every day being holiday and our kids will have no schooling at all. The thought of all these kids running around even stupider than they are now, well, as I said, it gives me chills.
Comment by Jon Swift — 06.09.06 @ 9:38 am
My solution would be for the government to not observe any religious holiday. Period. I don’t care that a clear majority of Americans are Christian. We aren’t a theocracy. However, I’m all for schools giving a week off at the end of the year because most major religions have their celebrations at that time. Calling it “Winter Holiday” is fine with me. Why so many Christians are offended is beyond me. As well, a week of “Spring Vacation” works just fine — and that doesn’t even have to be around Easter!
As for government workers, don’t give them off, either. Here’s what you do: Just give each government worker five or six additional personal holidays so they can take them whenever they choose. If you’re Jewish, then you can take off Rosh Hoshanah. If you’re Christian, you can take off Good Friday. If you’re Muslim, you can take off a couple days of Ramadan. Simple as that.
I do agree with Andi’s comment above regarding Christmas. I mean, Christmas IS Christmas. Even my loony-liberal, religion-hatin’ self loves Christmas!
Comment by Mike M. — 06.09.06 @ 9:40 am
As a child attending school in south Florida in the 50s and 60s, only the Jewish students were allowed off on their holidays. This was not popular with the rest of us as is to be expected with kids.
I’m sure teachers are granted a number of leave days each school year, so why not have them use those instead of giving them freebies. The budget should cover this leave.
Comment by Patsy — 06.09.06 @ 10:06 am
#26. Nowhere in the entire Constitution is “separation of church and state” even mentioned. In fact, I believe the word church never even makes an appearance. so how would allowing Muslim holiday be following the Constitution?
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 10:39 am
You’re good at using the standard mantras
That is because truth trumps all.
Comment by Jack — 06.09.06 @ 11:04 am
#34 Jon Swift waxes poetic about the “slippery slope” and how extremists think one toe in the water is tantamount to drowning.
Rest easy, Mr. Swift because slippery slopes are never a problem for those chuckleheads who sit at the bottom in their lounge chairs and laugh at the loony, values burdened folks at the top who contemplate guard rails.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.09.06 @ 11:48 am
I think it is intolerant to observe holidays of any religion without observing the holidays of all religions that request it. All or none, is the only way to be truly fair. The fact that you believe that Islam is at odds with our society is irrelevant. It is illegal in this country to discriminate based on religion, no matter how many kooks are out there claiming to kill in the name of it. Easy solution: Since there is an economical reason (expense of staffing subs) for making the days “off” days, don’t call the off days “religious holidays”, rather call them “voluntary in-service days.”
Comment by Matty The Dude — 06.09.06 @ 12:31 pm
Democracy- 1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
fair - 6 a : marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism
Comment by Renee — 06.09.06 @ 12:47 pm
liberty - 1 the quality or state of being free,
a the power to do as one pleases b freedom from physical restraint c freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e the power of choice
Democracy, liberty and fair…
for some reson they aren’t adding up to work in harmony with each other
Comment by Renee — 06.09.06 @ 12:49 pm
Judaism gave the world monotheism and many other gifts. Christianity is the basis for Western society. All Islam has given the world is conquest, suffering, enslavement and death. I see no reason they should be afforded anything in this society.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 12:52 pm
Matty has a good point.
Comment by Jack — 06.09.06 @ 12:52 pm
Frankly, these holiday are far more cultural than religious now. They are traditions our society is based on, not religious festivals held by the government at the taxpayers expense.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 12:55 pm
La Shawn - You said “If their requests are not met, will Muslims demand that we not observe Christmas, for instance?” I believe that this is exactly the case. The Muslims have openly stated that they will use the open nature of our secular society against us to defeat us.
The principle of Kitman or dissimulation is well understood by non-Muslim Western scholars of Islam. They will use our own system of laws against us to discredit and weaken our system from within. It has already happened in EUrope and some believe that with declining birth rates of Westerners, accelerating birth rates of Muslims in those countries that the ascendance of Sharia law is inevitable. Also, any failure to respond aggressively to threats from the Islamofascists is perceived as weakness and exploited.
The bottom line is that, those who understand the truly dangerous nature of Islamofascism must sound a clarion call, loudly and often.
The Hobo
Comment by Robohobo — 06.09.06 @ 1:23 pm
The question is not whether or not we should recognize Muslim holidays in public schools. The question is whether or not we should have public schools.
Comment by Julie — 06.09.06 @ 1:34 pm
I think that the Muslims who want their holidays recognized are displaying some kind of brass you-know-whats. Their brethran around the world are causing unbelievable misery, chaos and death to the innocent in numerous countries - includig England and Spain - not to mention all the middle eastern countries and the U.S. and they want us to give THEM special consideration? I think not!
I would rather eliminate ALL religious holidays from our schools and concurrently ban the teaching of such religions as LIBERALISM (and its sub-sets: SEXUALITY, DARWINISM, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS and REPUBLICAN-HATING). Require the teachers be able to actually PERFORM in the subjects they teach AND THEN insist that they teach them. Make the teachers work from texts that contain only FACTS and not interpretations of facts. And while we’re at it, keep the teachers’ salaries the same and make the schools year-round so that there’s at least half a chance those teachers can teach to children who until now haven’t been required to LEARN!
And as a last creative schooling idea, any time a child disrupts the classroom, the PARENTS HAVE TO DO DETENTION along with the child - teaching that child to behave!
Comment by Gayle Miller — 06.09.06 @ 1:41 pm
Don’t get too attatched to Islam, or any other false religion. I believe that Jesus is returning soon to set up His Kingdom-and all of the religious trash that satan and man have created over the centuries will be gone. As in: Gone. No longer remembered. Also missing: the freaky ideas of “global warming” and “evolution”. Gone. Our future is so bright, and may be here so quickly, that even on the darkest of days, I can’t help but smile, hoping, looking for the day of the Lord’s appearing.
Comment by Doug — 06.09.06 @ 2:11 pm
One wonders if this is a problem at all. In districts where there is a high population of mulim schools — Philadelphia and that area of Michigan come to mind — it is reasonable to not have school during certain holy observances for both administrative and societal reasons.
If you live in Boise, Idaho, on the other hand, it seems silly. So the answer lies in and amongst the populations of the districts at hand, not from our ivory (no pun intended, but it may be fitting anyway) towers.
In and of itself, I don’t see the “slippery slope” argument. At present, there are 6 million jews in a country of 300 million. That is 2%. We have created that threshold. Once any of the ‘wacky’ religions, i.e. Jedi-ism, Scientology or the Church of Bob, reach such a mass, they may have an argument.
As far as empowering the muslims, if they are large enough a part of a given community to pass it, then God bless em. Least put it up for a vote.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 2:16 pm
and they want us to give THEM special consideration? I think not!
If we do it for everyone else than we need to do it for them too.
Comment by Jack — 06.09.06 @ 2:22 pm
Doug,
That’s all that matters
There is faith in Christ alone, or faith in the Satan (all false religions, faith in self included).
AMEN!
For all Christians, did you spread the Gospel today, or did you watch as someone walked away possibly damned to hell???
Comment by Renee — 06.09.06 @ 2:23 pm
Jack, until we do it for Hinduism and Buddhism, then no. It is done for Christians and Jews because it is their values that founded this nation. This has nothing to do with being fair, This is about Muslims DEMANDING that we change our culture to accommodate them. They are doing it in Europe as we speak, and will do it here if we let them. Over 75% of the country CLAIMS Christianity as their religion, so Muslims can suck it up or go back to where they came from.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 2:34 pm
Ian,
Your supposition that “It is done for Christians and Jews because it is their values that founded this nation” is in fact wrong. I can guarentee that the governments of Wyoming and Montana no more celebrate Yom Kippur than those of Toronto celebrate July 4th.
This is a States rights, and better yet, town’s rights issue if ever there was one.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 2:38 pm
Sonnyred, actually, since it is usually referred to as “Judeo-Christian” thought, it is based on Jewish values. As they are federal holidays, the fed can decide. I am for states rights, but the feds can decide national holidays.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 2:42 pm
Ian, again, the only federal holiday that is also a religious holiday is Christmas. Neither Yom Kippur nor Roshoshonna are. On a purely technical note, Christmas is probably unconstitutional too. But as a practicality, it makes sense.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 2:46 pm
sonny, how is it unconstituional? I have heard that all over and never had anyone explain it. Why is it?
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 2:49 pm
Over 75% of the country CLAIMS Christianity as their religionso Muslims can suck it up or go back to where they came from.
That is a straw man argument. It is weak, unsubstantive and it doesn’t address this.
What is the problem with adding Muslim holidays to the calendar?
Personally I’d like to see religion removed from public school. That is a parent’s job, not a teacher.
Comment by Jack — 06.09.06 @ 2:51 pm
About the fed holidays, you are right. I misspoke.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 2:52 pm
The existance of Christmas as a holiday — i.e. the celebration of the birth of Christ — makes it religious in nature. Such an acknowledgment of the fact that no one, be they Jew or Hindi or Athiest can conduct business with or recieve support from their government could be seen as government endorsement of the divinity of Christ generally, and Christianity specifically.
As a purely technical matter, it is probably unconstiitutional.
Again, as a practical matter — and for me as a Christian a happy coincidence — it is useful to close while as you said 70% of this country observes this day.
Notice, Easter is NOT a federal holiday.
As an aside, Christmas is not even universally recognized on the same day by all Christians, but instead by the Catholic and Protestant denominations. So Government may also be seen as tacitly endorsing these denominations.
Remember, as a government holiday, it is reletivly new.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 2:55 pm
Jack, allowing kids a day off is religion? That is a stretch. And how is that a straw man?
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 2:57 pm
sonnyred, how is that unconstitutional? It is not telling anyone that they have to believe, or that they have to celebrate it. Unless the government is making people worship Christ at Christmas. It violates no constitutional principles.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 3:01 pm
Ian,
As a technical matter, where government endorses one religion over another, it violates the constitution. Again, because non-believers cannot get government services on that day, they and their beliefs are subjudgated in favor of religion.
Further, where the Eastern Orthodox Church members are both denied services on Dec. 25, but are also not entitled to government recognition of thier interpretation of Christ’s birthday Jan. 7th.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 3:09 pm
It is not an endorsement of that religion sonny. They are not saying that it is a holy day, just that most of the country won’t be working, so the government shuts down. It is in no way an endorsement of religion.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 3:11 pm
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” The exact words of the First Amendment. So tell me, how does allowing a day off constitute a violation of that?
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 3:15 pm
That is your interpretation. But when coupled with the “National” tree, and all the hooplah, that interpretation rings hollow.
Again, I am not attacking Christmas. It is fine, my favorite holiday in fact. Doesn’t change the facts.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 3:16 pm
The facts are that the religion is not being forced by law or anything else on people sonny. And it is not only my interpretation, but that of Constitutional scholars and SCOTUS.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 3:22 pm
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” on paper this would reasonably include a law making a religious holidy a National holiday.
Christmas as a holiday is a wink and a nod that we all must accept. It isn’t going anywhere. We can always change the name to “Winterday” if the athiests succeed in any of their nutty challenges. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that, as a tecnical matter, STRICTLY interpreting the constitution and the words you so helpfully cut and pasted…it is unconstitutional.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 3:24 pm
I am going to need a citation for the SC case that validated Christmas as a holiday. I missed that one in lawschool.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 3:25 pm
Tell me how it is an establishment of religion. Tell me how the government is saying that you must practice Christianity. tell me how that is saying that people in this country must believe in Christian doctrine. Unless it does, it is not an establishment of religion.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 3:27 pm
Now the court in Alleganey said that, “the … winter-holiday season … has attained a secular status in our society.”
That is a judicial punt. And is dicta to boot. Stare Decisis won’t apply.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 3:28 pm
Ian,
Suppose Hilary Clinton as President signed a bill that stated that March 15th was a national holiday to remember L.Ron Hubbard, the messiah of the Scientologists, and had a national “e-meter” put on the White House lawn.
Or if Holloween was made a national holiday and a 100 ft. inverted pentagram was displayed on the Captial Mall, for the satanists.
Still confused?
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 3:32 pm
I’m friggin furious. I don’t care if it’s politically correct or not, if the Muslims try, just even try, to get their hostile religion introduced into our school system in Kansas, there’s going to be HELL to pay in the land of Oz. I’m sick and tired of catering to every so-called minority this and that in this country.
I don’t give a damn what anybody thinks about what I just said. I’m through, fed up, and damn mad.
Comment by dianne — 06.09.06 @ 3:58 pm
Sonny, you are really out there. None of those are establishments of religion, as no one is forced to change their beliefs. You are the one who is confused.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 4:06 pm
Ian,
You alleged that 75% of the country is Xtian and said that because of this allegation Muslims shouldn’t be granted the same courtesy as others.
That is a strawman argument because it doesn’t offer any real substance. Sometimes when fact and logic don’t mix people try yelling really loudly and hope that no one notices that their argument is flawed.
Comment by Jack — 06.09.06 @ 4:09 pm
What others? Are Hindus complaining? Are the Sikhs? And how about Buddhists? This is not about the same rights as everyone else has. In Europe, Muslims are now demanding that public pubs and restaurants stop serving alcohol because it offends them. That is exactly what this will turn into.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 4:19 pm
And I know what a strawman is, I was asking exactly how my argument was one.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 4:21 pm
Sonnyredd is correct.
“None of those are establishments of religion, as no one is forced to change their beliefs.”
That’s not what “establishment” means: it means any state endorsement of a religion. I’d like to see where Constitutional scholars support your position, Ian.
Comment by tvd — 06.09.06 @ 4:23 pm
It never ceases to amaze me how the double standard is used by Christians. You don’t want Muslim holidays recognized because you aren’t Muslim and/or because you think all Muslims are violent evil people. But you expect Muslims to observe Christian holidays that they don’t believe in. When it comes to religion mixing with the public it has to be all or nothing, not just the one you believe. In order for multiple cultures to co-exist there has to be compromise. That means Muslims respect your right to celebrate Christian holidays, which they currently do. And in return you respect their right to celebrate Muslim holidays, which you don’t.
My question to those who support this double standard is, why do you not want Muslim holiday’s recognized? Because you don’t share that belief?
As for the slippery slope, that implies there’s something bad at the bottom of that slope.. what?
What bad do you think will come from recognizing a holiday that you don’t agree with? Wouldn’t that work the opposite way too, meaning Muslims should be experiencing this “bad thing” from having to recognize Christmas and other holidays they don’t believe in? What’s interesting to me is that Muslims didn’t initially ask for other religious holidays to be abolished, just for theirs to be included? Speaks volumes to me about which group is the tolerant one.
Comment by Thomas — 06.09.06 @ 4:23 pm
Ian, so that I can understand your perspective…
Short of the Gov’t telling you, “Allah is God and Mohhamed is is one true prophet,” is there ever a time that Gov’t “establishes” religion to your interpretation?
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 4:24 pm
In Europe, Muslims are now demanding that public pubs and restaurants stop serving alcohol because it offends them. That is exactly what this will turn into.
Ian, pubs and restaurants are not “public” like the schools that we’re discussing here. Just as Muslims would not demand that private Christian schools observe Muslim holidays, they wouldn’t demand that private establishments stop serving alcohol.
Comment by Thomas — 06.09.06 @ 4:26 pm
#68 sonnyredd writes: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion†on paper this would reasonably include a law making a religious holiday a National holiday.
The Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) has heard many cases involving the religion clause (Establishment Clause) of the First Amendment. The SCOTUS will hear many more such cases in the future.
There are many seasoned scholars who have dedicated their careers to this clause and its meaning.
Congress made Christmas a legal holiday in 1894 when it enacted “28 STAT 96″. The United States Code (5 USC 6103) lists Christmas, December 25 and Thanksgiving, the fourth Thursday in November as national legal holidays. (I admit that huge numbers of people have no concept of who is being thanked in the latter example.)
In Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971, the SCOTUS developed what is commonly called the “Lemon Test” as the predominant standard in determining “Establishment Clause” cases. The three elements of the “Lemon Test” are: 1) Whether the statute has a secular purpose; 2) Whether the principle or primary effect of the statute advances or inhibits religion; and, 3) Whether the statute fosters an “excessive government entanglement” with religion.
The idea stated above (“on paper this would reasonably include a law making a religious holiday a National holiday.â€) does not accurately reflect SCOTUS history.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.09.06 @ 4:33 pm
What never ceases to amaze me is the willful ignorance of people who claim to want tolerance. In Muslim countries, you cannot even own the scriptures of another faith, no matter what it is. They are not asking, they are demanding. A Muslim woman in Georgia has DEMANDED that she be allowed to take her driver’s license photo in her burkha. They do not want equal rights. They want theirs and theirs alone. Establishment of religion means government making such laws that you are compelled to be a part of this church or that faith. No one is being forced to change their beliefs. Period. When and if the government makes a national church and forces all who want to be citizens to join, then you will have a point. Until then, it is revisionist bull. Actually read the Constitution, read the Federalist Papers. My brother is a lawyer, and I will get some of the SCOTUS decisions that rules Christmas as a secular holiday, but he is moving and will be out of touch for a bit. as for Muslims being evil Thomas, I never once said that. But until Hindus start sawing off the head of Buddhists, or Sikhs riot and murder Shintos, then Islam will be the lone religon in thsi world that has no mderate voice caling on their bretheren to stop. When Rudolph bombed abortion clinics, he was rightly condemmed by Chrsitian leaders. When Hindus used violence, Ghandi was appalled and called for it to stop. No major Muslim cleric has ever done so.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 4:41 pm
Helio- Mind telling me what the secular purpose is?
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 4:42 pm
Our founding fathers knew that religion was important for our nation, they did not mean to separate it from education and they proved by adding to the Northwest Ordinance;
ART. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards the Indians; their lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent; and, in their property, rights, and liberty, they shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress; but laws founded in justice and humanity, shall from time to time be made for preventing wrongs being done to them, and for preserving peace and friendship with them. . . .
Question?
We are a country founded on religious freedom, but founded by Judo Christian believers. Without Christianity we would not be the greatest country in the world.
Comment by Clarence Hudson — 06.09.06 @ 4:43 pm
sonny, unless government compels people to believe in one god, or until it gives tax money to a religion for the purpose of spreading that faith, no it doesn’t. Establishment of religion, to me, is what the Founder’s referred to when they thought of the Church of England, or the Puritan colonies, where church and state were one and the same.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 4:43 pm
Lemon is conjunctive. You need ALL three to pass.
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 4:46 pm
Ian,
Then it is fair to say that it would be constitutional to your line of thought, for the Gov’t to put up a 100 ft inverted pentagram in front of the Whitehouse for holloween?
That being the case, christmas is fine. Then, to take the conversation full circle, where is the problem with the Jews requesting Yom Kippur and the Muslims Ramadahn?
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 4:51 pm
sonny, you said it was unconstitutional for Christmas to be celebrated, and I was answerers that, no, none of those things you mentioned would be unconstitutional. I was not referring to anything else about them. That being said, Jewish holidays being recognized I do not have much of a problem with, as Jewish culture is part of the foundation of Western society and makes up a significant minority in the US. Muslims are not a significant minority, their culture has not made significant contribution to our society, and the teaching of the Koran are at odds with everything that Western Civilization stands for. That is why I am opposed to them being recognized.
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 5:00 pm
And now I will leave the discussion and go the local pub for a pint and World Cup. Adieu
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.09.06 @ 5:06 pm
Ian, as Helio pointed out, SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation.
Notwithstanding that, I think your position — while noble– is untenable. The purpose of the holiday is a religious observance in and of itself. It is disingenuous, yet necessary, to consider it anything secular. But we do, because we must. It is done with a wink and a nod.
But, it is the ONLY holiday that has a religious meaning. It is okay because it is your religion, or the religion of sveral founders, but if it weren’t, if it were some other religion, would you still feel the same way?
And since the Mexican population is now larger than the jewish population in the US, shouldn’t Cinco de Mayo be a federal holiday?
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 5:15 pm
sonnyredd: I would not argue that Lemon is “conjecture”, in the same sense that “corporate personhood” has attached to the 14th amendment.
The point is moot. In both instances they are established precedent in the SCOTUS. (And forever subject to revision or a reversal.)
I always advised my students that, “of course you can bring the case; that is a fool’s errand.” The issue is whether you can achieve “standing” and then whether you can prevail.
Seasoned jurists are reluctant to predict the outcome in regard to judicial reasoning. That is why the decisions handed down by the SCOTUS are always devoured by smart jurists.
The fact still remains, that December 25 is a national legal holiday and the SCOTUS has not found the statue in violation of the Establishment Clause.
Furthermore, “secular purpose” has enjoyed a lively life since Lemon and its application is well documented if you wish to make a scholarly study of it.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.09.06 @ 5:16 pm
Helio…Conjunctive…NOT conjecture. Meaning the prongs of the test must ALL be matched. *smh*
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 5:30 pm
Helio,
*sigh* the ‘Supremes’ have never heard the question, so they have not decided anything. The Lemon test that you pointed out, is a conjunctive test. Meaning that each point must be met. The holiday, Christmas, I propose fails the first prong, as it has no secular purpose. Rather than address a very real point, you — like the ‘Supremes’– punted, and suggested that I study it.
Address the point, or don’t. But either way stop (trying to ) show off. It isn’t helping.
I’ll make this easy,
Sonnyredd says, “The law making Christmas a holiday fails the lemon test because fails the first prong. It, the holiday — and by extension the law, has no secular purpose whatsoever.”
Respond?
Comment by sonnyredd — 06.09.06 @ 5:37 pm
Sonnyredd: Sorry about my error in misreading your use of the word conjunctive. I frankly have not had to deal with that old chestnut for a long time and I merely misread it.
As to showing off, I will try to be gracious. It would appear that yours is the final word and I am satisfied not to tilt at any of the vanes on your windmill.
I will retire from the debate and wish you good fortune in finding companionable company.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.09.06 @ 5:51 pm
as for Muslims being evil Thomas, I never once said that.
Your previous quote Ian: All Islam has given the world is conquest, suffering, enslavement and death. If that’s not calling them evil, I don’t know what you were going for there.
No one is being forced to change their beliefs. Period. If they are not allowed to take the day off from school, work, etc. as their religion requires, then yes they are being forced to either change their beliefs or be penalized for not changing them.
As for your assertion that Islam has no “mderate voice caling on their bretheren to stop”.. and that “No major Muslim cleric has ever done so”.. it took me less than 5 minutes on Google to find reports (even on Faux and BeliefNet) about major Muslim clerics denouncing terrorism.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/07/31/2003265808
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,58207,00.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/129/story_12943_1.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2004/02/01/top_cleric_denounces_terror
Comment by Thomas — 06.09.06 @ 5:54 pm
Don’t know if this helps LaShawn, but perhaps someone from Hawaii can comment. I believe the state agencies, including schools observe Kuhio Day, to honor the first delegate to Congress. While not a religious holiday, it does accentuate the point that local school boards should be free to observe holidays that best fit their schools. I can tell you that it is a touchy point where I live because the state has suborned the ability of the local school boards to set the schedule. This was done in the name of conformity and cost savings. The end result is that no one is happy with the schedule. As to the muslims who want their holidays observed, I am sure they were quite aware of the school schedule before enrolling their children. They were free then and remain free now to move their children to a private school that observes their holidays. To that end, school vouchers are the way to go. They should not be forced to pay taxes for a school system that they cannot use.
Ag
Comment by Ag — 06.09.06 @ 6:16 pm
#79 Thomas: I am concerned that Oriana Fallaci is dead right about Islamofascism turning Europe into Eurabia.
You appear to see Islam as another garden variety religion.
Islam was founded as a theocracy, such that the Western innovation of church-state separation remains alien to its culture. Is it possible for Islam to reform? Or must the world outside of Islam be converted? (See: jihad.)
Do you think that the basic tenets of faith in Islam can be negotiated to accept the brotherhood of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.?
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.09.06 @ 6:53 pm
That was the first thing that came to mind when I read this post at La Shawn Barber’s blog. Apparently, some Musim parents in Maryland want Muslim holidays on the school calendar along with Jewish (and presumably Christian) holidays.
Pingback by Cagey Mind — 06.09.06 @ 7:36 pm
sonnyredd,
“And since the Mexican population is now larger than the jewish population in the US, shouldn’t Cinco de Mayo be a federal holiday?”
If we count only LEGALS…they are not
Comment by Renee — 06.09.06 @ 10:53 pm
Well, they may actually be more than total Jews, but maybe not in tax paying status…
there, I am done with this one
Comment by Renee — 06.09.06 @ 10:55 pm
I never got good friday off, we got “easter” off but actually we got the monday after easter off, we actually got the following week or the second following week, but I think it was the week after, can’t remember for sure(not the week of easter) off, for “spring break” (which is actually a period of time allocated so that the teachers and school system could process standardized testing) so I have no problem with puting the monday after easter back into the curriculuum.
If you look at the religious holidays that are granted “off” you will see that they align either with nationalistic holidays, or with convenient periods of relaxation and catch-up for the educational system to process testing, grading and categorization of students.
I don’t much mind “amnesty” days, like for those faithful catholics who feel they must adhere to a day off for “good friday” or “ash wednesday” (though there is nothing in the faith that denies work, or effort, so their is no reason to really offer it) without punishment for attendance, however, the student MUST make up the work PRIOR to the holiday if there is to be a test (to prevent the aspect of peer test preparation, as in, all the kids who did attend tell the other kid what the test is testing) and all homework must be made up after.
Also note, that muslims have a sabbath on friday, and they have an entire month of “fasting” which isn’t really fasting, it is just controled feeding based on the daily solar cycle. So a school system would have to completely remake it’s schedule to accomodate these things. Tests could no longer occur on friday, as they often do, and nothing of importance would be allowed happen during ramadon (I don’t care about the spelling.) Yes, this is a slippery slope.
It would, in affect be a de facto segregation policy, forcing non-muslim students to be without accomplishment, while muslim students were forgiven every act during their innumerable holidays.
Not to mention, since the eid is a social holiday there is nothing to keep them from attending school, so will the schools start slaughtering goats at the beginning of the day, and then cook them up for the lunch menu?
I have enough problems with the whole “religiously acceptable” meals that schools are required to offer. You don’t like what is being offered? Bag lunch it buddy.
Comment by Wickedpinto — 06.10.06 @ 1:21 am
Heliotrope: A theocracy is a form of government, not a religion. And if I’m to believe the arguments commonly made on this and many other blogs, America was originally a theocracy. The arguments against the separation of church and state invariably turn to “We were founded on Christianity” or “Our forefathers were all Christian”, etc.
On a lighter note.. I thought Cinco de Mayo was already a national holiday.. it is here at my local Mexican restaurant
Ok I’m done now too.
Comment by Thomas — 06.10.06 @ 1:21 am
True religion is the source of love, unity, peace and justice. Any “religion” which does not promote these things is not religion at all but ideology manipulating the language, symbols and institutions of religion for narrow, selfish purposes. It is such manipulation that is the real problem and people of good will of all faiths and no faith should unite in exposing this tendency whenever and whereever we recognize it. If we do this we will contribute to a society where spirituality can flourish and America can evolve into an even greater nation exemplifying the power of true religion for the world. This is my prayer as a proud American. Thanks LaShawn for raising this issue and for all those who have added their two cents to an important conversation. God bless us all.
Comment by Phillipe Copeland — 06.10.06 @ 8:14 am
The federal govt. can only establish legal holidays for federal employees and the District of Columbia. The states can each establish their own legal holidays. And private industry can establish their own recognized holidays.
There’s really only one Christian holiday recognized by the federal govt. and all states…..Christmas. Thanksgiving is religious oriented but is not necessarily uniquely Christian. So, I think it would be a slippery slope if you started considering creating legal holidays for other religions’ holy days.
Interesting things I found while surfing the ‘net on this subject:
A study by the University of Michigan found that the U.S. was one of the most religious countries in the world: 46% of Americans attended church services at least once a week compared to 14% in Great Britain, 8% in France and 4% in Japan. http://www.umich.edu/news/index.html?Releases/2003/Nov03/r111703
Religious persecution in Europe drove settlers to immigrate to America in search of a place to worship as they saw fit. Interestingly, these settlers were all Christians seeking to practice their version of Christianity. In Europe, they were killing people who did not ascribe to the one true universal church. http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01.html
America’s founding fathers thought religion should play an important role in American Society. But they were not concerned with religious diversity in non-Christian religions. The debate leading to the first amendment was over the role the federal govt. should have in supporting religion as opposed to the states. Hence the amendment was not to proscribe states from making certain laws regarding religious practices but to prohibit the federal govt. from establishing and supporting certain religious practices and imposing them on all states.http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html
Comment by Leon — 06.10.06 @ 8:44 am
I’m late to the comments, here. But just wanted to add that here in Detroit - in Dearborn, MI to be exact - one of our public high schools caters to the Muslim religion:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060530/NEWS05/605300388/1007
“Completed in 1928, Fordson High’s architecture was based on buildings at Yale and the University of Michigan. Back then, almost all of its students were of European background, while today, almost 90% of the students are of Arab descent, students and teachers say.
On the walls of the new cafeteria hang menus that list $3 shawarma sandwiches and humus with bread, along with more traditional fare like pizza and subs. All meat is served halal, the Muslim equivalent of kosher.”
Comment by Nan — 06.10.06 @ 9:51 am
#103 Thomas: In a theocracy, the bigwigs of the sole religion run the country according to their religious beliefs. The Taliban would be a recent example. Iran is a theocracy, although it has a puppet “elected government” that is permitted to exist by the mullahs in Qom.
A basic pillar of Islam is that the religion rules the people. Turkey, under the dictator Ataturk, set up a state separate from Islamic rule in the 1920’s and they have been trying to keep their government separate from religious rule ever since. Egypt is another example. Both Turkey and Egypt have strong, dangerous factions who want to force the states to return to being theocracies. All across the world in Islamic countries from Pakistan to Malaysia, there are dictators that out power the mullahs, but are essentially theocrats. Even Saddam played the game of being a devout Muslim.
The history of Spain is an excellent one to study to understand Islamic theocratic rule.
Hope this helps clarify my question to you.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.10.06 @ 12:03 pm
I expect that each state is different, but in my state, the local school board determines the days off during the school year. Again, each district may be different, but in our district, the contract negotiated with the teachers gives them a very strong voice in establishing the calendar each year. The way it works is that the teachers propose a calendar and the board either accepts it without change, or makes adjustments and then passes the calendar for the next year. This is usually done in the Jan - Mar. time frame.
Although it hasn’t been tested in court, most public schools avoid nomenclature that would indicate a religious nature to the holidays - we don’t have Christmas holidays, we have “winter break”. We don’t have Easter holidays, we have “spring break”. Winter break is always based on Christmas, spring break may or may not be based on Easter. Classrooms still celebrate the religious holidays of Halloween, St. Valentine’s day and St.Patrick’s day. They’ve been sufficiently secularized that most don’t even realize that they are religious holidays.
I presume that if some number of teachers were Muslims, it would be reflected in the school calendar. On the other hand, it seems that Muslims with extremist views send their children to Muslim schools which foster those views. Maybe getting them to send their children to public schools where their views are likely to be moderated might be a good thing - even if if requires a bit of accomodation. Maybe.
Comment by suek — 06.10.06 @ 12:18 pm
At least Yom Kippur is a holiday that Jesus celebrated.
Comment by Adriana — 06.10.06 @ 12:55 pm
Students and teachers have been allowed to take the less common religious days off if a school calendar does not recognize them. Radical Muslims will be enrolling their children in the Madrassas. Moderate Muslims should be given time off. I am more concerned that any Muslim who teaches in a public school adhere to the stated curriculum and not try to convert non-Muslims.
Comment by Pat in NC — 06.10.06 @ 7:40 pm
Personally, I think our political ends would be better served by seeking to establish common ground with liberal Muslims, because if we exclude them from our moderate fold they will simply turn to the extremist fold. I would rather have everyone take the first day of Ramadan off, and have Muslims feel more welcomed into American society (on the same grounds that Jews, Catholics, and others have had to accept — assimilation), than to make some silly religious or political point about how we hate bin Laden, so we will assume that all “true” Muslims support him. Dude, who cares what “true” Muslims think? I am much more interested in how we can get alienated PROFESSING Muslims on board with America, than attacking them because their beliefs use the same vocabulary as our estimation of “true” Muslims.
And our religious ends will be better served by Christians willing and able to intellectually engage other religions, not Christians who simply try to keep Muslims from proselytizing or keep Islam from becoming a part of American culture. I personally think that Britney Spears is a greater threat to the production of effective Christians than moderate Islam. Most people — Christians and otherwise — are vapid and emotional, and simply try to shut things up that they don’t like or dont’ agree with. Concern with the deeper issues is absent from intellectual discourse. Perhaps a tolerance of moderate Islam would encourage Christians to begin taking their intellectual responsibilities seriously again.
As for what Islam has contributed to the world, it was Islam’s fascination with ancient Greek philosophy that brought it to the attention of Europe, spurring the Renaissance and Enlightenment (not all of which were bad, by the way). The Islamic world contributed mathematical concepts, Arabic numerals, triangular sails, and a host of other innovations that were brought back from the Crusades.
Comment by Rick Morris — 06.10.06 @ 10:10 pm
I am more concerned that any Muslim who teaches in a public school adhere to the stated curriculum and not try to convert non-Muslim
I understand where you are coming from, but as long as we have people who are arrogant enough to believe that they are the only ones with the true path to G-d we have a problem.
That is all inclusive as we see this with all religions.
Comment by Jack — 06.11.06 @ 12:31 am
Muslim Holidays: On Closing the Schools
LaShawn Barber writes about a school district that received a request to have the school closed for some Muslim Holidays. They close for Jewish holidays because the cost of getting Jewish substitute teahcers is just too expensive. If it ever gets that …
Trackback by Adam's Blog — 06.11.06 @ 2:49 am
Shouldn’t we first establish whether or not Islam is a religion of peace? How many other religions cause military installations around the world to go on alert doing the observance of this Muslim holiday or that Muslim Holiday?
How tolerant is Islam? Shouldn’t that be a deciding factor as well? Christianity tolerates a great many faiths…would Islam? Sure they do here in the US but that is because the majority religions are tolerant of them. If you look at other nations around the world, their tolerance falls by the wayside for religious dogma.
I don’t think that we should be blackmailed or intimidated into adding other “faiths” into our public school system. These are the same tactics as the ACLU…the ‘Do it or else!’ clause that has intimidated so many groups into hiding their Christian faith in the public forum. Christianity is under attack in our country and we want to bring Islam into the fold? How does that help our country?
What next? Instead of the White House Prayer Breakfast their going to start having a ‘Call to Prayer’ in the White House where they all take out their prayer rugs and pray toward Mecca? And if they don’t do this then the Muslims are going to demand that all prayer is stopped in the White House?
They can buy a calendar that contains their holidays and they can take those days off if they choose to do so…changing everyone’s calendar to let us know why they aren’t at school or work that day goes to serve what purpose?
So I beg to differ with many of you. I believe that our nation was founded on Christian Principles and those principles have given our nation strength in the hard times and clarity in the troubling times of our past. We are a Christian majority nation and that majority does not impose it’s will upon minority faiths according to the Constitution. A minority faith imposing its will upon us is just as counter productive. The ACLU and the like finding offense with a cross in a field or on a tomb stone but fails to take offense when a greek goddess located on a county seal just reveals the double standard being used to address this issue.
What next…Satan’s Birthday? If I’m not mistaken, the Catholics have many religious days and observances that never appear on a public/secular calendar or observed in public schools…Why aren’t they in an uproar about not observing Saint so-in-so day in our public schools?
To sum it up clearly:
regarding faith: http://theworkingpatriot.blogspot.com/2006/03/declaration-of-christ-redemption.html
regarding gay marriage: Genesis 2:24 sums it up for me.
Mike DiBartolo
TWP
Comment by Michael DiBartolo — 06.11.06 @ 6:30 am
It shouldn’t be a problem. Look at it this way, the same people that hug, burned, mutilated and did unmentionables to black people claimed Christianity, and Lashawn you claim Christianity. Don’t say you can separate the thugs that claim Jesus, from the people that follow him, but you can’t separate the people who follow Prophet Muhammad from the thugs that claim him. Besides, religious holidays are always welcome.
Comment by tjack — 06.11.06 @ 12:29 pm
As my fellow Dearbornite said earlier there is a large Muslim population in Dearborn, Michigan. The Dearborn Public Schools did not hold school during the Eid’s in early January. The reason was more pragmatic than respect for the holiday. Many Muslim families do not send their children on the Islamic Holy Days so the school population falls below the minimum and the district loses funding. Hence it is easier for the district to give the day off rather than lose the funding.
As to the larger issue, America gives religious freedom not simple toleration so it is proper then for the Muslims to request that their holidays be respected and treated equally. This is a conflict for many Americans who believe that this is a Christian Country. Honestly we must admit that America is a secular Country with a strong Christian influence. My problem with the whole issue is that Islam its self does not hold to religious freedom and holds minorities in dihimmitude. This should not cause us to limit their freedom but rather be wary of the tendencies of Islam to become radical. America does need to be cautious in allowing Islam to dictate its principles outside of Muslim communities.
Comment by Leo Monterosso — 06.11.06 @ 2:53 pm
#111 Rick Morris declares: “Perhaps a tolerance of moderate Islam would encourage Christians to begin taking their intellectual responsibilities seriously again.”
Turkey has developed a form of “moderate Islam” at the point of a gun. The US has a fair number of moderate Muslims who prefer the developed world to swatting sand fleas.
However, to be a moderate Muslim is to deny the pillars of Islam. So, what is at stake is weaning the Muslim away from basic tenets of his religious belief system. Discard Sharia law. Forget the infidel stuff. Hang out with a few Christians and a couple of Jews. Have a beer.
Mr. Morris encourages Christians to take “their intellectual responsibilities seriously again”. I say, to heck with Christians and Jews. Let the atheists and agnostics look into the belly of the beast, radical Islam, and teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.
Arnold Toynbee, the celebrated historian of the world’s civilizations noted: “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.”
Too many on the sidelines of religion do not understand the very basic concept that a war for survival can be waged by only side fighting out of religious fervor. The atheists and agnostics may throw stones at the Christians and Jews, but, like Nick Berg learned, being a pacifist or a critical bystander never swayed a fanatic Muslim.
For the sake of everyone, I hope that the fairytale of Darwinian evolution is hard at work on creating a “religion of peace” out of the Islamic cauldron. The first step will be the inclusion in Islam of a form of “The Golden Rule.” Islam is the only major religion in the history of the world that does not incorporate it as a basic belief. You can look it up. That’s my take on intellectual responsibilty.
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.11.06 @ 7:59 pm
Here’s an idea — we only recognize a holiday to the point of making it a day off if at least 10% of the students in the school are from families that observe that holiday.
That should end most of the nonsense.
If 10% or more of the students are from a special ethnic group or religion that does observe a holiday, great. Go for it.
If not — stop already. Take the day off if you must, but don’t impose it on the whole school.
Comment by Gina Cobb — 06.11.06 @ 10:08 pm
For those who still believe Islam wants dialog:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18349
Comment by Ian MacD. — 06.12.06 @ 5:15 pm
>>Too many on the sidelines of religion do not understand the very basic concept that a war for survival can be waged by only side fighting out of religious fervor. The atheists and agnostics may throw stones at the Christians and Jews, but, like Nick Berg learned, being a pacifist or a critical bystander never swayed a fanatic Muslim.>>
This really is the crux, isn’t it. I nearly got into a serious disagreement with my DIL several weeks ago about the “immersion” course in California 7th grade social studies deemed perfectly ok by the 9th federal circuit court. Her position was that if teaching about Christianity was ok, then teaching about Islam was ok too. I told her that teaching about Christianity in the same was was _not_ ok, but could send her cases to demonstrate it. I let the whole thing drop because I realized that the crucial issue was that I believe that Islam is the core of the problem, and she does not. I believe that Muslims - most of them - are enemies, she does not. I think this is the critical issue with most Liberals, and until we get their recognition of the basic problem, life is going to be tense.
Oh yeah…I really _do_ think teaching about Islam in school is a good idea, but I strongly suspect that the way I’d have it taught wouldn’t be very politically correct, and therefore would be unacceptable!
Comment by suek — 06.13.06 @ 1:40 pm
I don’t think giving Muslims their holidays off is asking too much.
It’s not like they’re asking for the month of Ramadan off.
They’re only askinf for specific days, namely the Eids.
I think that some, (though not all) people are forgetting that Christianity hasn’t always been so tollerant.
Also, to say that Muslims have contributed nothing to our culture shows a lack of education.
Arabic numerals, the concept of zero, the preservation of Greek and Roman literature, numerous advances in science, just to name a few.
Furthermore, it’s not like every Muslim is an extremist.
There are quite a few moderate Muslims in this country, who aren’t compromising their faith by assimilating into Western culture.
Jihad is not a pillar of Islam, and it’s hotly debated throughout Muslim literature.
Lots of Muslims condemn terrorism on moral grounds, but I don’t think it matters how many instances I site, they’ll never be believed by those who want to take the easy road of just declaring them all terrorists.
Am I saying that there aren’t terrorist Muslims, of course not.
But if all Muslims can be called terrorists because of what some do, then I suppose I can call all Christians evil people because of what some do.
Lastly, Let’s not forget that part of the Christian end-times senario is a shift to a theocratic government, where the Christians are in power, and everyone who isn’t Christian has been cast into hell to burn for the rest of eternity for simply not being Christian, never mind how decent the people are.
Sounds pretty violent to me.
Comment by Amanda Rush — 06.13.06 @ 3:00 pm
But how many Muslims condemn the behavior of the jihadists in PUBLIC!?
Comment by Gayle Miller — 06.13.06 @ 3:33 pm
LaShawn I think has hit on the most valid of reasons why ‘government’ schools should be abolished. The religious observences are not the issue here. The issue is church-state. If the leftists really want a seperation then I recommend that forthwith the schools be serperated from any governmental function and be taken private. The facilities should be put up for auction and the supporting local revenues prorated to the winning bidders. The parents are treated as shareholders in direct proportion to the children attending thereto. The parents can then decide who, what and how religious holidays are to be observed.
But I bet the leftists will oppose this idea because it diminishes government power over people.
Comment by JohnMc — 06.15.06 @ 1:46 pm