Friday, June 23: I’m closing this post because I think it’s veering off into bawdiness. Ideally, commenters focus on the facts at hand and civilly discuss differences of opinion. I don’t like negative remarks about people’s physical appearance, and I’m beginning to wonder if there’s any value in talking about the stripping and “escort” professions in general. As long as commenters aren’t calling me or each other names, I usually stay out of it. But now I must ask commenters to refrain from general discussions about stripping and what turns on drunk college men. Click over to the newest post, and keep it clean.
Some commenters are lawyers; many others are not. But try to discuss the legal and social aspects of the case without being gratuitous.
——————————————————————————————————
I didn’t get a chance to watch or listen to today’s hearing. District Attorney Mike Nifong was supposed to turn over more evidence, and Phillip Seligmann, father of indicted player Reade Seligmann, asked for a bond reduction from $400,000 to $40,000. I’ll find out the details and report later.
Note: I spoke too soon. The judge reduced Reade Seligmann’s bond to $100,000. It’ll probably take a few days before the defense releases the contents of the new discovery documents.
In the meantime, you’ll never guess what’s happened. I’m now worthy of mention in black liberal media as a “black conservative.” Thank goodness Cash Michaels didn’t use the term “black Republican.” Check it out:
Given tremendous opposition from the major media and the blogs, thanks to defense motions releasing prosecution documents that reportedly call into question the alleged victim’s claims, it seems as if there is almost a united front in the white community that she is not to be believed, though there have been a few Black conservatives like Thomas Sowell, LaShawn Barber and Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson who have joined the crowd.
…
But there is evidence that the African-American community is, for the most part, fairly united on the premise that something very wrong did happen to the woman that night in March at the hands of several Duke lacrosse players, and it wants to see the criminal justice process proceed, unabated, so that a judge and/or jury can make a final determination.
Emphasis added, of course. The story is about a purported monetary offer by “alums of Duke” to the accuser in exchange for dropping the case. If true, it wasn’t a wise idea to try to pay off the woman. But true or false, it doesn’t make the rape allegations any more believable today than they were yesterday. Don’t be confused by the noise. I’ll have more to say when I find out what new evidence Nifong turned over.
By the way, am I to believe the stripper-accuser turned down $2 million? OK. 
What an honor to be named alongside Thomas Sowell, even if it wasn’t meant as a compliment. 
Addendum: As one commenter reminds us, if “alums of Duke” offered Nifong’s witness money to drop the case, that’s witness tampering. I think we can trust him to investigate this charge if he finds it credible.
Related stories:
- Sports Illustrated: The Damage Done
- Duke Mom Does Not Blame Son’s Accuser
- Father: Rape case has taken its toll
and it wants to see the criminal justice process proceed, unabated, so that a judge and/or jury can make a final determination.
My sentiments exactly.
Comment by Shade — 06.22.06 @ 5:12 pm
Judge orders reduction in Duke lacrosse player’s bond.
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/14877643.htm
Seligman’s bail cut from 400k to 100k.
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 5:23 pm
wow cool they reduced his bond that’s great!
nah that hush mnoey thing is bs.
Comment by Bill Mitchell — 06.22.06 @ 5:24 pm
“By the way, am I to believe the stripper-accuser turned down $2 million? OK.”
it would take an awful lot of lap dances & escorting to accumulate 2 million clams - she MUST be a person of the highest moral integrity to turn down such a king’s ransom, right?
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 5:26 pm
What I find so hilarious is Cash Michaels never seems to write anything about black-on-black or black-on-white crime in her past articles. Going through her archives its more of the typical “white man keeping black man down” drivel.
So apparently Cash believes we are supposed to just believe Jakki and also believe that she knows more than the defense attorneys. Which, if Nifong had a clue, he would realize is against the law; he can’t feed any information to the cousin he is not feeding to the defense attorneys.
Comment by e_alex — 06.22.06 @ 5:33 pm
That’s part of the reason I started writing op-eds — to cover what other black writers ignored or misrepresented.
Comment by La Shawn — 06.22.06 @ 5:35 pm
I agree with Shade, I do believe something happened and though I don’t think she was raped and I do think something ugly happened in that house and I’d like to know what. The way some of these commenters on here act, you’d think those dudes were choir boys.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 06.22.06 @ 5:40 pm
# 7
If you’d like to find out what happened, then read one of the many books that will be published about this after everyone is forced to acknowledge that the facts show nothing happened.
A rape trial is not the place to find out whether racial epithets were used and by whom. It is never something to be condoned. That being said, the toll that this is taking and already has taken on these boys and their families is traumatic and leaves a person pondering the ever elusive question, “Where do I go to get my reputation back”.
People should be entitled to find out what happened that night, however I humbly suggest that maybe a proper investigation should’ve been concluded, let alone commenced before indictments were handed down.
Comment by Peter — 06.22.06 @ 5:54 pm
Tiffany,
Pray tell what you think ugly happened? I’ll admit Crystal is pretty ugly, is her taking off her clothes what your talking about? Or is it the boys not wanting to pay her for that, is that the ugly part? Or it the ugly part two hookers falsely accusing the “hokeys” in hopes of cashing in?
I take the last one, unless you’ve got a better idea. And by the way some of the boys were choir boys and most are honor students. None have been arrested for trying to run over a policeman, none have been thrown out of the service, and none, that I know of, have been sent to a mental hospital and none of them performed with a vibrator before they had the party.
Kemp
Comment by kemperman — 06.22.06 @ 5:54 pm
Tiffany,
Probably because when you read stuff like this (in a new SI article on the case) you start to wonder what the point of this whole thing is:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/06/22/duke0626/index.html
On May 18, as required by state law, Nifong turned over about 1,300 pages of evidentiary material, the whole of his case to that date, to the defense. The contents began leaking instantly. SI has confirmed through defense motions and lawyers who have studied the files that they contain no evidence that a forensic toxicology test was performed on the accuser, though she appeared impaired to witnesses and Nifong has said that she might have been given a date-rape drug. The documents also show that the accuser recanted her charge of rape to a police officer that evening; that in the 48 hours before the party she had, by her driver’s account, been on at least four one-on-one dates as an escort; that a genital swab of the accuser found DNA belonging not to a Duke lacrosse player but to her boyfriend; that the injuries the D.A. asserted were consistent with rape or sexual assault consisted of lacerations on one knee and one heel and swelling in her vagina (no vaginal abrasions or tearing were noted). The alleged victim stated that no condoms were used, yet no player’s DNA was found anywhere on her person.
“I don’t understand how he can prosecute this case,” says one Durham lawyer who supported Nifong’s reelection. “It’s a travesty.”
Comment by e_alex — 06.22.06 @ 5:55 pm
“The way some of these commenters on here act, you’d think those dudes were choir boys.”
I would bet at least a couple were altar boys - Catholic school grads. One played Santa - S.
“I do think something ugly happened in that house and I’d like to know what.”
What happened to respect for privacy? If it was not rape, let’s get out entertainment elsewhere, I suggest.
Comment by cfw — 06.22.06 @ 5:56 pm
The trial isn’t to find out if “something happened.” It is for a very specific crime and three specific individuals.
Comment by craig henry — 06.22.06 @ 5:56 pm
Kemperman,
Dude, I’m not going to get into a back and forth with you because some of your commentary is borderline offensive with me as a black woman. I’m not going to acknowledge it. What you have said about the accuser, you probably feel about many black woman.
I do want to know what happened because regardless of any alledged crime that may or may not have occurred, the LAX team exchibited poor choices and terrible behavior.
However, I don’t think their lives should be ruined either.
Your speculation and mine isn’t solving anything. Let the courts handle it.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 06.22.06 @ 6:04 pm
Something wrong did happen with the woman accusing the lacrosse players–she entered into an immoral and degrading career that led her, like many before, down a path without any moral compass. Lying about anything is no big whoop when she’s actually doing stuff that’s as degrading as what she’s admitted. What the lacrosse guys did was enable it by hiring her–let us all learn a lesson of trickle-down responsibility. It may not be criminal, but the whole thing sure is wrong.
Comment by AyUaxe — 06.22.06 @ 6:10 pm
Tiffany - sure something happened! She was probably denigrated, put down, leered at, maligned, subjected to racist commentary, and perhaps (gasp) groped. She was also paid $400, a sum she readily accepted, to display her wares to more than 3 dozen, um, “inflamed” male college students. All of which is regretable & offensive, none of which is a basis for a criminal indictment, much less a trial. If you “don’t think she was raped” as you say then it shouldn’t matter how curious you are about what other morally reprehensible conduct took place, or what bigoted jackasses the accused may or may not be. DAs prosecute crimes - period - they serve no other function, including the promotion of - how was it Nifong put it in his email to Newsweek? - “social discourse”. Taxpayers don’t slide their local, state, and federal governments a nice chunk of the sweat of their brow so that lurid but non-criminal facts can make the tabloids & entertain the Jerry Springer crowd, while jamming up the dockets of their criminal courts. Surely, you’d agree we’ve got enough actual crime to keep our police, prosecutors, judges, court staff & jurors busy without requiring that we hold a trial in a case where you “don’t think she was raped” but are just curious about what other “ugliness” may have transpired.
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 6:10 pm
Tiffany,
We don’t need a court to figure out what happened. Let me show you why.
The burden of proof in this case is “beyond a reasonable doubt”
So far you have
- Seligmann’s alibi
- Robert’s prior inconsistent statements
- No DNA match to Finnerty or Seligmann
- Very suspect photo identifications
that were weeks after and by a person who was either extremely or drugged… doesnt matter either way because it undercuts reliability
- previous sexual activity that will not be suppressed by the rape shield laws
I know I’m not including everything pro-defense, but remember Tiffany that in the court room there will be defense spin, they get to try their case.
THEREFORE,
Regardless of anything Nifong has, there is NO WAY a jury could ever find the three guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. NO WAY AT ALL
So keep perspective and save your inquiries and curiousity for something other than the devastating and fruitless prosecution of three men.
Comment by Peter — 06.22.06 @ 6:12 pm
CASH MICHAELS The Wilmington Journal Originally posted 6/22/2006 [DURHAM, NC] “The cousin of the alleged victim in the Duke University lacrosse rape case says “alums of Duke†quietly offered the accuser lots of money - a staggering $2 million – early on to drop the charges, and go on with her life.”
I love the name Cash.
I think I met this “cousin” once. He/she told me that the Queen of England is the head of a huge drug ring and has meth labs in all her palaces and is addicted to anchovy martinis with chocolate syrup.
I am so relieved to learn that this high brow stripper would not stoop so low as to give up art for financial security. Isn’t it just like stumble-bum white conservative alums to try to throw money at a problem?
As I always say: “What’s up cuz?”
Comment by Heliotrope — 06.22.06 @ 6:18 pm
Peter & kemperman - as to #8 & #9 - I am curious about 1 tiny issue, and I don’t mean to nitpick or anything (particularly since I agree with the gist of each of your messages), but I note that both of you, and a lot of other posters here, typically refer to the Duke students/defendants as “boys” or “the boys” - to me that is a loaded term - with both positive and negative connotations. Is there any intent or resoning behind the choice of that term? I’m not criticizing, just curious. Personally, I wouldn’t term them “boys” as I think that connotes a juvenile nature, and these are adults, not children, plus it could imply that they are not fully responsible for their acts by virtue of their age and gender(”boys will be boys”). I don’t know - the term just sort of jumps out at me. Am I being overly analytical here? (I can see kemper’s reply already - “yes”) -hehe.
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 6:20 pm
Karl,
You can try a 14 year old as an “adult” yet that doesn’t make the person an adult.
Comment by Peter — 06.22.06 @ 6:23 pm
Karl:
Save your sarcasm for someone who cares. I sure as hell don’t.
Just because she may have NOT been have raped, doesn’t mean something else DIDN’T happen, possibly another crime, possibly not.
I’ll bet 10 to one that the majority of the folks are up in arms are white men concerned about OTHER white men. If it was the Duke basketball team, your opinions would be totally different.
I’ve been reading the articles and comments and I’ve tried to not say anything but I’m just so annoyed by all of this. It’s a circus all around.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 06.22.06 @ 6:29 pm
This comment is inappropriate, Peter. Don’t insult other commenters. Stick to the case, and don’t make assumptions about people on this board. - Admin
Comment by Peter — 06.22.06 @ 6:36 pm
anyone who believes this “rape victim” needs to have their head checked….
i’m about to lose my bet that this would all be over by the end of june…i’ll see if I can get a month extension.
Comment by lukeNC — 06.22.06 @ 6:36 pm
RE: Tiffany in Houston - Those boys shouted epithets at her…
That’s what happened in that house, no more and no less… This all began with a phone call to 911 from a black female reporting that someone at blah-blah address was shouting “racial slurs,” as her and her girlfriend were walking by the house… It was the second - and first dancer’s - way of getting back at those RICH WHITE BOYS…
Open your mind and READ the WRITTEN evidence; the accusers words, the second dancer’s words, the SAN nurses words, and all the other folks that have put their statements in writing.
Why does this always be a black against white thing?
I was so against these boys in the beginning… Race never entered my mind. I thought they had done something terribly wrong, too, like rape. I also thought, “Yeah, those privileged, rich white boys, they think they can get away with anything…” But after hearing and SEEING the overwhelming evidence, I became enraged… Enraged that a prosecutor could pursue something so tainted and wrong, and only after the election was over did I realize that I was duped… That it was for his own personal and political gain. I think this is why the mother of Reid Seligmann made a statement today that she didn’t blame the accused (CBS interview with the family of Reid Seligmann). You figure it out…
This case is really frustrating for white folks right now. We don’t understand why RACE has to be involved. Why can’t we, as people of one God, base judgment upon the merit of the crime? We don’t see it as a black or white thing, so why do you?… We examine and make decisions based upon the evidence… FOR US A CRIME HAS NO COLOR!
If for some reason there turns out to be a smoking gun (possible but doubtful), I’ll be the first to apologize and say I was wrong.
So Tiffany in Houston and Shade, if you think no rape happened (but something else did), do you still think that the accused should be prosecuted for rape, kidnapping, and assault? Let’s have an intelligent and rational dialog… I would sincerely like to know your thoughts.
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 6:38 pm
Correction by Tate: Post #23, Paragraph 4…
I think this is why the mother of Reid Seligmann made a statement today that she didn’t blame the ACCUSER (CBS interview with the family of Reid Seligmann).
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 6:43 pm
Cliche explanation
Just because I’ve heard it used too much and not in its entirety, whenever someone comments on the grand jury and how it will “indict a ham sandwich”
The full comment is a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich for the murder of a pig.
Just a little context
Comment by Peter — 06.22.06 @ 6:50 pm
Tiffany,
I don’t have any bias against attractive women, whatever their color. Let the courts decide what? There is no case.
Let’s remember Crystal was not forced to come to the house, she came on her own as a paid entertainer, aka hooker. She was not forced to stay, she left on her own with a smile on her face. It is the boys who were pissed, they spent money on a bad show and a bad time, which got worst.
Karl, my son is a senior at Duke. I know these boys and they are just that nice someone sheltered boys. God, I’d give anything to be 19 and in college again. Dukies are a interesting group of kids. I could have never gotten into Duke. These boys and girls are VERY smart and they work their a**es off studying. They also party hard too.
Example, I took my son on a hunting trip over Christmas, we all had a great time, he studied every night in his room until midnight. These boys are unbelieviable. Your choice Tiffany, who would you trust with your money or your life, any Duke student or Crystal? Kemp
Comment by kemperman — 06.22.06 @ 6:51 pm
Tate,
I think some sort of assault happened. That is what I think, I think that the accuser got intimidated by the amount of men and refused to perform, the guys got mad and some of them confronted her and a scuffle occurred. THAT’S what I THINK happened.
And as far as your comments about why must it be a black/white thing. Because I don’t PERSONALLY believe most white folks think crime has no color. Statistics don’t bear witness to it, even I can admit that. And because I live as a black woman, I have to worry about crime even more than a white person because more than likely my attacker would be black.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 06.22.06 @ 6:53 pm
Well then Kemp I owe you an apology. Some of your previous comments looked suspect in my eyes. As far as trusting a Duke student with my life, I don’t trust anyone with my life but myself and God Almighty. We all have to be accountable for self.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 06.22.06 @ 6:56 pm
If people say they “think” something happened, then you already know the outcome of a criminal case, and there’s no reason to have one
Comment by Peter — 06.22.06 @ 6:56 pm
Should even Crystal be accountable for herself? apology accepted, no offense was taken to begin with. Kemp
Comment by kemperman — 06.22.06 @ 7:01 pm
#24 Tate:
“I think this is why the mother of Reid Seligmann made a statement today that she didn’t blame the ACCUSER (CBS interview with the family of Reid Seligmann).”
I think Mrs. S said she did not “hate” the AV, which is Xian. Drudge I think got it wrong when he said “blame.”
The public approach to this case would not change if the Duke bball team had this sort of problem. Look at the Kobe case, the M. Jackson case, etc.
People do not single out AV because she is female. If she were a man making these sorts of claims, with this many holes (such as in a man-on-man rape case), she would be getting the same “you must be nuts” response.
AV simply lacks the facts to support her claims, which may be why she has been oput of sight for three weeks. It makes sense for the AV to throw in the towel.
Comment by cfw — 06.22.06 @ 7:05 pm
There is one redeeming thing about the publicity of the trial.
The more holes that continue to develop and widen, the less the negative effect will be on the three accused.
Had this gone largely unreported then these three would have had to answer on every job application that they had been arrested and/or indicted for a felony. An explanation would have been tendered but no employer would blindly except any excuse.
Instead, the nation at large, even at this preliminary stage know of the innocence of the accused. So now when the three have to answer that question on a job application, an explanation will already be in the mind of the employer. It will be as if they had to reveal Tawana Brawley accused them of rape. Not too much collateral damage on making that known.
Comment by Peter — 06.22.06 @ 7:11 pm
Did I read correctly? The AV’s cousin says that they (Duke Boys’supporters)want to make the AV look like a “harlot and a Jezebel”???? I don’t know how to break this to her, but her cousin looks like a harlot and a Jezebel all of her own accord. She didn’t need any help from anybody.
Comment by Belle — 06.22.06 @ 7:13 pm
If there were an offer of $2 million to influence the AV to drop her charges, that would be interfering with a witness, and Nifong ought to be out arresting those who made the attempt.
(This is a criminal case, not a civil law suit where a settlement can be reached.)
If he isn’t doing that, then . . .
Comment by Seahawk — 06.22.06 @ 7:14 pm
Tiffany,
very simply, whatever went on in that house,
if Finnerty wasn’t there but was at a restaurant
eating dinner; and Seligman left before whatever it
was that was supposed to have happened, happened;
then those two are innocent. Case closed.
(If Nifong wants to find two others to indict, then we can start all over again from there.)
Anything else about this case is irrelevant.
Comment by Seahawk — 06.22.06 @ 7:16 pm
I’ll go out on a limb an say if, and that’s a big bird way out on a little limb, she is telling the truth about the 2 million, that doesn’t change anything. I’ve spoken on these boards of my experience several times, I was innocent of everything I was accused of, but I would have put every penny I could beg, steal, or borrow into ending it. It may be extortion but there’s a reason innocent people can be extorted from. Innocent people can still be drug through the mud, because if this ends today with this woman declaring them all innocent, and herself a drugged out crack whore (in the true form, not the profane one) then it would still ruin the lives of these boys. I don’t think it says a thing about guilt or innocence. There is a reason companies settle out of court when they could potentially win, because they’re protecting what they can of their good name.
Comment by John — 06.22.06 @ 7:19 pm
And another thing….. I am sick of all these people who say, “I don’t know what happened in that house, but I am sure something ugly happened that night” or “I don’t think she was raped, but something bad happened in that house”. What kind of crapola is that? We know something ugly happened. Two adult women took money to expose their genitals and writhe around on the floor in front of some teenage boys. That’s ugly. That does not offer proof that a rape took place. And Tiffany, as a white woman, I am offended that everything you say is somehow prefaced with the fact that you are a black woman, as if that is pertinent to anything.
Comment by Belle — 06.22.06 @ 7:25 pm
If it was the Duke basketball team, your opinions would be totally different.
Ridiculous. If lily-white John Elway had been charged with O.J.’s crimes, and the evidence preponderated against him as it did Simpson, I (a white attorney) would have been a) as initially shocked as I was to learn that the lovable Juice was a sociopathic murderer, and b) nevertheless swayed by the mountain of proof to conclude that he was, in fact, a sociopathic murderer.
Is that what happened in the vast majority of the black community? Correct. I’ll never forget being filled with the urge to wretch as CNN cut to the collective idiot crew at Howard University’s student union leaping from their chairs, slapping high-fives and whooping as if their “team” had just scored a last second touchdown to win the Super Bowl when the verdict was read. Sad.
Same here. Whites charged with horrific crime against hard-working African-American collegiate mother of two. The charge is enough. Her complaint is enough. The collective idiot crew will ignore the mountain of proof, refuse to see the charade for what it is, and root for innocent lives to be ruined despite the little fact that they are innocent. The deficient melanin content of their skin alone is enough to justify the pillory.
I can’t wait until FS & E each own 1/3 of Durham County, Nifong is censured or disbarred, and our hard-working collegiate mother of two is (back) in jail .
Comment by Mike McCusker — 06.22.06 @ 7:30 pm
One of the unindicted :
He spent the next week living out of his car and staying on friends’ couches before checking into a hotel. His parents came down two weeks later to lend support, but in a lawyer’s office his mother, Nina, broke down sobbing, fighting for breath, unable to stand. “You feel like you’re drowning, and you just want it to stop,” she says. “But it wasn’t stopping. It was getting worse and worse.”
Multiply this by 46…
Comment by Seahawk — 06.22.06 @ 7:41 pm
Dear Tiffany,
Thank you for your comment. I would agree with you; not all white people see crime as having no color, as I have had the unpleasant experience of being in the company of some atrocious “redneck” people that I decided to quickly to get the hell away from.
However, living as a white woman for many years, I have seen extreme changes in attitudes. It’s unacceptable in white POLITE society these days to say anything negative about a black person. And I’m not B-S’ing. We’re not there all the way yet, but I’d say we’re damn close. Wouldn’t it be nice if both races could reach a higher ground?
It’s obvious you’ve experienced some prejudice and I’m sorry for that. Thank you for your candor. Stay safe and God speed.
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 7:42 pm
Tatercon,
I’ve read the N & O story http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/453433.html
All it says is that Nifungu gave the defense 538 pages of stuff. No mention of the outcome of the boy’s motions, Judge Stephens, you guessed right, did denied the motion to release the medical reports. Next hearing July 17th, what happen to the defense motions to suppress the ids, etc.? Lawyers love a good delay, ah, billing by the hour! It’s still piece work, though. Might as well be in the mill, oh, sorry about that. Ha Ha Kemp
Comment by kemperman — 06.22.06 @ 7:46 pm
She should be offended that the Devine Ms. M is such a disgrace to all black women. She should be offended that her Precious lies will, in the future, inevitably cut to the detriment of true rape victims of every race, creed, color, tint, or hue.
Comment by Mike McCusker — 06.22.06 @ 7:48 pm
I read the SI story noted at the bottom of this blog entry, and never have I heard the feeling and issues of being in this position so damn perfectly presented. I lost 25 pounds in 2 months because of the stress it invoked. I hardly ate and never slept.
Comment by John — 06.22.06 @ 7:55 pm
why isnt the accuser being prosecuted for prostitution?
Comment by Bill Mitchell — 06.22.06 @ 7:55 pm
We’re not there all the way yet, but I’d say we’re damn close.
I don’t know how much further society will go than it is now. I’ve heard negative remarks about practically all of God’s children, when some of those children didn’t happen to be present. I’ve even heard remarks about Asians made by close friends, who remembered too late that I’ve got Asian in-laws, LOL.
So there will always be remarks, which are always wrong (in the sense of “incorrect”, to begin with); but so long as race-consciousness doesn’t become such an obsession that it clouds our judgment about everything else, I think we’ll have to learn to live with it. (”Sticks and stones. . . may turn out to have been more than just a child’s wisdom, after all.)
Which brings us back to this case–if this case were tried someplace where the defendants’ race was simply not an issue, (and considering that there is simply no evidence, period),how long do you think it would take the jury to come back with a verdict of not guilty? Five minutes?
Comment by Seahawk — 06.22.06 @ 7:57 pm
It’s sad to say, but we’re not going to make much progress in racial equality in the incarnation it’s actually possible in until everyone stops being so sensitve and denying issues. Are all black people gang members, criminals, and lazy? Not by a long shot, but there are enough that are to make it impossible to say it’s not racially motivated at all. Are white people out to get blacks? Not most of them but until all of us are willing to stop it’s not going to happen. This leaves us at an akward stalemate. Whites won’t treat blacks as equals, blacks won’t treat themselves as equals, until that happens, people of every race are to blame.
Comment by John — 06.22.06 @ 8:03 pm
Post #45…
Seahawk, darling… the jury would indeed come back with a “not guilty verdict” if these young men were tried by a jury of their PEERS…
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 8:07 pm
Cash Michaels wrote “But there is evidence that the African-American community is, for the most part, fairly united on the premise that something very wrong did happen to the woman that night in March at the hands of several Duke lacrosse players”
So in essence Michaels is claiming that for the most part, the African-American community, Michaels included, believes in “guilty until proven innocent”? When did that become the American way of jurisprudence?
Comment by Carl — 06.22.06 @ 8:23 pm
RE: Post #31 - CFW
I could be wrong, but I would swear that I heard LIVE on WRAL News today, per the CBS news correspondent (can’t recall her name), that the mother or Reid Seligman said, “I do not BLAME the accuser.” If I’m wrong, please correct.
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 8:24 pm
I think she got pissed off that they called the strippers n****** and thought she would get back at them. Purely a fabricated story.
Comment by Maryann — 06.22.06 @ 8:29 pm
Ditto, Maryann! Please refer to post #23…
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 8:39 pm
If there is one thing to be learned about the Duke episode, that is the importance of treating people with respect. Men who love their women do not go out to hire prostitutes for sexual gratification. No good ever came from bringing a prostitute in your life.
Fortune 500 corporations have strict sexual harrassment policies and are quick to fire the harasser once the facts are established without a doubt. Parents who pay 48K for their sons to be educated at Duke should insist that they be provided with a good moral and ethical foundation as the decisions they make will have career consequences if they are the wrong decisions.
What they should have done was to cite the 48 Duke lacrosse players for solicitation of a prositute where they would have been fined court costs. And the university could have provided additonal discipline by requiring the lacrosse players to do 100 hours of community service.
Because one of the dancers implied that she was sexually assaulted, the DA was morally obligated to investigate the claims and to proceed with the case to trial after getting the indictments on the three Duke players.
Duke and lacrosse have been unfairly tarred with the rape implications. The University has already announced a strict monitioring of after game activities by athlete teams and a strong willingness to terminate the sport if the misbehavior continues.
Whatever happens to the case will depend on how it is brought and how much of the evidence the jury believes in to convict. The case could be dismissed by a judge due to lack of evidence. And to get a dismissal, the defense will have to provide corrobating evidence to the judge in order to persuade him to grant the dismissal.
In the long run, Duke will withstand the storm and emerge a stronger and better university. The lacrosse players will have received an education that prepared them for the world better than the university could do. To be accused of rape is a painful experience and to have your family suffer with you is equally painful especially when you know that the family finances will almost certainly be strained by the additional legal fees imposed by the case.
We hope those lacrosse players will have learned their lessons from this nasty episode to conduct themselves better when they enter the corporate world.
Comment by James Goodwin — 06.22.06 @ 8:41 pm
#48 Carl, don’t you just LOVE the qualifiers in that sentence? Let’s go again and see where thre are words saying it’s less then all of the group, shall we?
“Cash Michaels wrote “But there is evidence (there’s evidence these young men didn’t do it, appearantly evidence doesn’t count, next!) that the African-American community is, for the most part (not all, but for the most part), fairly (ok, are we starting to see a pattern here?) united on the premise (the premise, not the fact) that something very wrong (but not necessarally anything illegal, or specifically the rape.) did happen to the woman that night in March at the hands of several Duke lacrosse playersâ€
You just have to LOVE qualifying phrases.
Comment by John — 06.22.06 @ 8:47 pm
Calling people ugly or jokes about wearing a bag are subjective, unnecessary, and only hurt the argument being made by digressing into a personal attack.
I would expect magazines to offer the AV and Kim money for their stories and pictures.
But this $2 million “alums of Duke” story/rumor would be totally funny as a conspiracy theory if some fools did not believe it.
(sarcasm on)
Yo n——, did you hear how the man was trying to bribe the African Queen they raped.
Dude, you know the white man is always trying to buy black woman.
Solid of the woman to refuse
Negroes ain’t for sale no more
It just proves whitey is guilty
and the white man will cover up all rape of black women
They are probably on the payroll of the man and the man wants them to rape some more.
Comment by UNK — 06.22.06 @ 8:56 pm
Post #52 - James Goodwin…
But wait, James… These men were supposedly hiring Exotic Dancers. But yet you refer to them as PROSTITUTES. Do you have evidence that the dancers were indeed prostitutes. Interesting…
What the hell has sexual harassment got to do with THIS case? Geesssshhhh!
You can be assured that these FUTURE Fortune 500 men have learned their lesson… LOL!
You must be a Dukie plant. You’re pathetic…
I assume this is sarcasm? - Admin
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 9:07 pm
We hope those lacrosse players will have learned their lessons from this nasty episode to conduct themselves better when they enter the corporate world.
Well, since two of the accused were not present at the episode in question, I guess all they could learn from it was that no matter what they do, they can get in trouble if someone wants to accuse them; and that no matter what our system is supposed to say about innocence until proven guilty, they will have to prove their own innocence in some overwhelming fashion.
Comment by Seahawk — 06.22.06 @ 9:13 pm
As I understand, it’s been all but stated that they are prostitutes by trade who dance at parties. They refer to a “performace” earlier that night with a sexual toy for a couple and that her driver had taken her to several hotels for appointments but I ‘d say it’s a more then reasonable conclusion that they were more then just dancers.
Comment by John — 06.22.06 @ 9:14 pm
Awesome answer, Seahawk! Post #56…
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 9:53 pm
And just when I thought I heard the dumbest conspiracy theory ever, this might top it:
Many of those black-on-white rapes are white men in black-face makeup.
This makes white women afraid of black men and serves as justification for oppressing black men.
Comment by UNK — 06.22.06 @ 10:02 pm
Damn, you’ve figured us out!!!! *grabs his radio* The sheep has detected the wolf, the sheep has detected the wolf, shred the proof.
For the record, yes that was sarcasm
Comment by John — 06.22.06 @ 10:15 pm
#59- “white men in black face make-up”??? Where did you read that?
Comment by Belle — 06.22.06 @ 10:17 pm
LMAO!!!! #159- UNK
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 10:30 pm
Oops, I meant #59… So funny!
Comment by Tate — 06.22.06 @ 10:32 pm
Cousin Jakki has a whole lot to say. Someone should tell her the audition is over.
Comment by Belle — 06.22.06 @ 10:38 pm
Tiffany, you write:
“Karl:
Save your sarcasm for someone who cares. I sure as hell don’t.
Just because she may have NOT been have raped, doesn’t mean something else DIDN’T happen, possibly another crime, possibly not.”
Also, in a subsequent post:
“I think some sort of assault happened. That is what I think, I think that the accuser got intimidated by the amount of men and refused to perform, the guys got mad and some of them confronted her and a scuffle occurred. THAT’S what I THINK happened.”
On the basis of this, you want there to be a trial so the whole world can see what REALLY happened. But, Tiffany, did you consider that the AV herself doesn’t say this is what happened to her, but rather than she was raped? You kinda have to dance with the one that brung ya, and AV picked her story long ago. I do think the assault story would have been the more clever one, and would have been much more difficult to disprove. But this isn’t a hypothetical multiple choice case where you choose (a), (b), (c) or (d) to decide which crime will be tried. AV cried rape, a demonstrably false claim, and even Nifong wouldn’t dare prosecute a trial against the Duke students on some alternate theory that does not match what his “victim” or any witness says took place, and is supported only by the conjecture of one suspicious Sherlock Holmesque blog contributor in Houston, whether she be white, black, yellow, brown, or green with pink stripes.
While I love a good hypothetical as much as the next person, that dog won’t hunt.
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 10:47 pm
Dear Karl,
The only other crimes that happened that night was a false accusation of rape and the DA Mike Nifong aiding and abetting the malicious prosecution of three innocent boys.
Comment by Betty Friedan — 06.22.06 @ 10:52 pm
Seahawk, what century are you from? Such sexual repression usually hides a perverse dark side. There is nothing wrong with young boys wanting to watch naked women dance for them. it’s only normal. THat’s how god made us.
Comment by Betty Friedan — 06.22.06 @ 10:53 pm
Kemperman - on #26 (or anyone else who knows) - can you tell me whether the Tom Wolfe novel “I Am Charlotte Simmons” is based on Duke University? I read it a few weeks back & though my Dukeology is pretty much limited to March Madeness & an long-ago ex-girlfriend who went there, it seemed the “fictional” “Dupont University” in the book was probably patterned on the author’s perception of Duke.
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 10:54 pm
Great article! Fair and balanced!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/06/22/duke0626/index.html
Comment by Betty Friedan — 06.22.06 @ 10:57 pm
sorry seahawk, misread your post #56. My cmment was made for the prude who has stripper issues.
Comment by Betty Friedan — 06.22.06 @ 11:01 pm
also Kemperman, on #41 & reference the absence of any advancement on the motion to suppress(”Lawyers love a good delay, ah, billing by the hour!”), though this case could be different, TYPICALLY in criminal cases the defendant is charged a flat fee retainer, rather than billed hourly, which generally gives the defense lawyer an incentive to end the case early on whenever possible, through judicial or prosecutorial dismissal, with far fewer hours invested.
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 11:02 pm
#67 - Betty reference your comment: “There is nothing wrong with young boys wanting to watch naked women dance for them. it’s only normal” - what about middle-aged boys, still normal and nothing wrong?
Comment by Karl — 06.22.06 @ 11:05 pm
As I said earlier in reference to the article in post #69, This story has one of the most accurately depicted concept of what it is to be a falsly accused young man. The loss of appetite, the constant worry. Well written.
Comment by John — 06.22.06 @ 11:09 pm
If there is one thing to be learned about the Duke episode, that is the importance of treating people with respect. James Goodwin, at 52.
Aw, fer crying out loud!! The stench of injustice is overwhelming 3 young men and their families, and you’re talking about coming out of all this with a bunch of hugging and singing like Barney and Friends. Then we’ve got Tiffany’s thoroughly discussed attitude, where the lacrosse team members may not be guilty of rape, but they must be guilty of doing something bad, so let’s have a trial and find out. We’ll get to the end of the day, and when we hear “Not guilty” verdicts on the rape charges, Goodwin will still mutter under his breath “Yeah, but I still think they should have to go to sensitivity training.” And so will the rest of the PC college culture moonbats….
Geez. I’m sounding like “Mad Max” on John Boy & Billy. Myyyyy Butttttttt!!!!
Comment by TaterCon — 06.22.06 @ 11:12 pm
“I could be wrong, but I would swear that I heard LIVE on WRAL News today, per the CBS news correspondent (can’t recall her name), that the mother or Reid Seligman said, “I do not BLAME the accuser.†If I’m wrong, please correct.”
The article I read has quote marks around Mrs. S “does not hate” the AV. The text with no quote marks says Mrs. S does not blame the AV. Mrs. S may have said both things, but I would have expected to see quotes around the I do not blame statement, if she said that.
Pretty irrelevant since the person with possible grounds for suit for mal pros would be S and not Mrs. S (who looks like she could be about 30).
Comment by cfw — 06.22.06 @ 11:17 pm
Tatercon: …. what happened to the defense motions to suppress the ids, etc.? Kemperman, at 41.
Dunno, didn’t get a chance to see or hear anything until logging into the The Corner late this evening. Can’t speculate, based on one story from an N&O writer. Have found over the years, though, that reporters sometimes miss things when reporting on court proceedings, or miss the import of an argument or a ruling, and gloss over or omit the event if not fully understood. Judge coulda’ said something like
“Lawyer X, I’m going to hold your dispositive motion open, it’s not ready for hearing …” and it’ll be understood by the lawyers that an evidentiary hearing that makes or breaks a case will not be held today, but the sentance flies right over everyone else’s head.
Again, dunno. Speculation. But, I think good criminal lawyers are out to see speedy resolutions with the best result for their client, and maybe this just wasn’t quite yet the day to press for the speedy resolution if the vibes, or odds, didn’t say “best result” was at it’s highest percentages today. Not practicing criminal law, I’m short on knowledge, but maybe the suppression motion is a “one bite of the apple” thing in pretrial procedure … no second chance later. I hate to move too fast to a summary judgment motion in civil cases, for this very same reason, if the odds don’t quite yet favor a high percentage chance for success.
My two cents.
Comment by TaterCon — 06.22.06 @ 11:40 pm
Post # 74…
I just luv you, Tatercon! Your posts are too funny… I totally share your sentiments…
P.S. Keep up the great postings!
Comment by Tate — 06.23.06 @ 12:23 am
Well,
I have to admit. Nifong does get my “Annual Giant B***s Award”.
To look at this utterly rediculous, obviously BS case and to say publicly that you see NOTHING in the evidence to make you think this woman wasn’t raped and these boys are just evil hooligans takes some serious manhood.
And who are the true racists here? When black activists proclaim that despite ALL the evidence to the contrary that this woman was still raped JUST because she is black and the boys are white is the ultimate in racism.
Comment by Bill Mitchell — 06.23.06 @ 6:49 am
So much for Defense Spin.
Last week, the Defense Lawyers released the entire 1300 pages of evidence to MSNBC. MSNBC reviewed the material and declared that the case is utter rubbish.
Plus, Nifong said he gave “all” his evidence to the defense last time, yet now he has 500 pages more? I guess his “all” is different than our “all”.
Comment by Bill Mitchell — 06.23.06 @ 6:53 am
“white men in black face make-up�?? Where did you read that?
The racist 1915 movie Birth of a Nation movie, where the Klan saved the nation, had whites in black face makeup playing black rapists. This was the most seen movie up to that time. In the early 1900s, there was low-brow racist comedy where white comedians dressed up as blacks and acted as buffoons and criminals. I would guess that if some people saw whites dress up as blacks and rape white women in film and onstage, it’s not too far to assume that whites do it in real life, especially if one is only half paying attention in (black) history class. It was only a movie.
Comment by UNK — 06.23.06 @ 7:00 am
“By the way, am I to believe the stripper-accuser turned down $2 million? OK.â€
I would count on the AV’s cousin or that newspaper to do any fact checking or even to know how to do fact checking, but IF the AV is making claims that someone offered her $2 million, this should be another interesting story. Perhaps three white men appeared in a bathroom and had a suitcase of hundred dollar bills. Perhaps she imagined it.
Comment by UNK — 06.23.06 @ 7:04 am
James Goodwin - What they should have done was to cite the 48 Duke lacrosse players for solicitation of a prositute where they would have been fined court costs. And the university could have provided additonal discipline by requiring the lacrosse players to do 100 hours of community service.
Oh, please! As if we don’t have enough BS “Blue Law” crimes tying up law enforcement and bleeding the taxpayer as the busybodies of the Nanny State seek to impose their morality - you want to criminalize 65-75 million men for having been at a batchelor’s party or ever being at a club where strippers are part of the activities? Give them 100 hours for the “new crime” of watching a stripper and 100 hours of community service? And all the women who confess to being at a Chippindales, including Lynne Cheney and Condi Rice? Next, James, I’m sure you can go after gays and criminalize them for watching gay go-go dancers and any other activities deemed “purient” by a blemishless soul such as yourself.
While you’re at it why not make Playboy and other adult media illegal, ban drinking again, and craft laws forcing women to adapt modest attire. Please consult with the Saudi Religious police for advice.
=========================
Read the SI article. It was a little too sympathetic to the Accuser at times, given what most of us know about her activities - “Navy Vet, Honor student, devoted mother of two” - but maybe they tossed some bon-bons her way for balance. The part with Coach Pressler killed me. What a needless, undeserved tragedy(or “royal screwing” in lieu of “tragedy”) that guy was smacked with. I didn’t know that he was given a huge attaboy! 3-year contract less than a year earlier to enormous praise by the guy who less than a year later said resign or be fired, and had acted promptly on any complaint brought to his attention - and that in 12 years he had a 100% graduation rate at a super tough school, and built a sports program from nothing to national contender.
And got thrown under the bus nevertheless.
Hope he has a good lawyer - because his Duke loyalty aside - he was treated like shit by Brodhead, and if he doesn’t get job offers, it’s time to redeem his trashed reputation by extracting beaucoup Duke bucks after sweating Duke Administrators. I read some of Broadheads work in his Yale years, and he comes across as ethical and very insightful. But I would love to be able to ask him if the price for being headed for the top at Yale and then Duke necessitated he become amoral and embrace vicious tactics of destroying others. Pressler and the Lacrosse players aren’t the only ones this guy threw to the wolves. He helped get rid of a professor at Yale innocent of murder as a PR solution, and is rumored to have destroyed the career paths of other Yalies who did not share his liberal politics or blocked his rise.
======================================
Tiffany, I hope you can understand the absolute inanity of your position. “They may not have done the crimes they are accused of, but surely they must have done something else wrong, so le’;s have a trial and see what comes from such a fishing expedition.”
Right. So I accuse you of child molestation despite me living nowhere near Houston - a local prosecutor thinks a “female child molester” would be an excellent campaign prop - and next thing you know you’re indicted by his Grand Jury puppets. You say Ford is a false accuser with no evidence. Then you hear about “Believe the Children, Always!!!” advocates that act like you in the Duke case - that maybe you didn’t do the molestation but surely you must have done something bad so lets put you on trial for a jury to decide if you spend most of the rest of your life behind bars - just to see what the “bad things” Tiffany could have done - really are? is???
I mean, come on Tiffany. If you endorse arresting then trying people on no evidence - because they must have done something “bad”. Then why shouldn’t you be arrested and tried without probable cause if certain people around you or even a stranger you encounter believe you must have some skeletons in your closet?
Comment by Chris Ford — 06.23.06 @ 7:09 am
Whats so sad is that if the accuser (and Jakki) supposedly get what they want ( a trial ) and the evidence gets put out on the table and they get skewered like most people believe they would be (based on the evidence), it just makes the plight of women (both black and white) that much worse. One of the hidden outcomes of the Brawley fiasco (beyond the embarrasment of several black leaders) was how much more skeptical people became of hate crime accusations.
This woman doesnt see mto understand that if she is lying she has not only destroyed 46 lives, she has destroyed the lives of many black women who in the future may be raped or assaulted or harassed for racial reasons but might not be believed as easily after this fiasco.
And thats what this is; a fiasco. Because we all know if this wasnt so publicized and this is all the evidence Nifong had, this wouldnt even make it to trial.
Comment by e_alex — 06.23.06 @ 8:21 am
BTW, where is the accuser? Apparently she is being held under wraps by the DA.(Even her parents claim not to have seen her for weeks.)
If she did decide she wanted to drop her story; or if she got religion and decided after seeing all the grief her false accusation has caused that she wanted to just recant–would she be able to get to a microphone?
Comment by Seahawk — 06.23.06 @ 8:59 am
Karl & Tatercon,
Sorry went to bed early. Tom Wolf’s daughter went to Duke, so there is speculation that it is about Duke. Wolf has been asked that and denies it. I haven’t read it, my wife has and she, like you, sure thinks it is about Duke. I thankfully have never hired a criminal lawyer, never got caught in college, so I had no idea they billed by a fee, sorry. Tatercon I actually know John Boy, he did a promotion with me one year and it’s “my big ole hairy butt” . Sorry, Lashawn we’re talking in code again. Kemp
Comment by kemperman — 06.23.06 @ 9:07 am
Tate
Read specifically the quote I responded to in the very first post of this thread and then tell me why I was included in your #23 post. I have NEVER given an opinion about what happened that night.
Comment by Shade — 06.23.06 @ 9:41 am
Cousin Jakki sure is a good actress!
#64 – Belle – Thanks. My thought, exactly, the audition is over. [But wait, she didn’t want to give out her name – only say she’s appearing in a movie with D.L. Hughley. I did a quick Google Search – couldn’t find it].
And now Jakki wants us to think that her cousin was offered AND turned down $2,000,000. by Duke Alumni. Yeah, okay. What was that, $20,000. first, then $200.00 and now $2,000,000.? Rather like she was originally raped by 20 men, then 1, then 3? Or, perhaps this is what her “civil attorney,†Gary E. Willie, quoted this as an amount the he might able to get the “AV†if she files a [civil] suit.
A bit off topic – but WHAT could Kim Roberts possibly stand to gain in a civil suit? Other than further humiliating herself and the three accused young men. Fox News: “Mark Simeon — the attorney for Kim Roberts, the “2nd stripper” at the alleged rape scene — wants a civil suit.â€
Did anyone hear what it was that was on the “AV’s†cell phone that was going to be offered for evidence?
Since the “AV†only wants to see justice served there will be no way the DA will be able to “save face†in this case by saying that the “AV†didn’t want to testify. So, although I’m certainly NOT advocating what the DA did – bring this case forward for political reasons if that is how this turns out – but if he didn’t, and “truly†thought there was enough evidence, blah, blah, blah then it will be the lives of five men ruined – the three defendants, the coach that “quit,†and the DA who is going to have to find another state to practice in after this ignominy is finally said and done.
Speculation: The criminal case ends up going nowhere. Then the “AV†and Kim file civil suits. They’ll file against the players, individually, and Duke. Duke is where they will look for the “deep pockets.†The “rape†took place on Duke Campus property, did it not? Thus, becoming a “responsible party.â€
The civil case certainly could well end up being much, much better drama, however. Every Tom, Dick, Harry and John that the “AV†ever had sex with – or performed for – will be called to testify, she will be deposed by the attorneys and “grilled†to the mat and good grief, let her “slip up on a detail,†between her deposition testimony and any trial testimony. And, Kim, too. She will have to face the same.
Nope, I don’t buy it. That the “AV†was offered $$$ to make this case go away. Not when she’s considering the possibility of a civil suit…
Comment by Beth T. — 06.23.06 @ 10:16 am
This lecture by Minister Eric Muhammad speaks powerfully to the Duke rape case and ties the issues of illegal immigration and the Cynthia Mckinney incident together with it to place it within the larger context of America’s race problem.
It has been deleted by THE WHITE MAN several times due to the truth it speaks to America’s race problem and we’re sure will be deleted again soon. Get it while you can.
THE BLACK…WHITE…PROBLEM IN AMERICA
4/16/06
THIS LECTURE IS 5.90MB IN SIZE. WITH HIGH SPEED INTERNET, IT WILL TAKE ONLY SECONDS TO DOWNLOAD. WITH DIAL-UP IT COULD TAKE UP TO AN HOUR.
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW TO BEGIN DOWNLOAD.
http://www.zshare.net/download/the-black-white-problem-in-america-4-16-06-wma.html
MUHAMMAD’S TEMPLE # 15
ATLANTA, GA.
Comment by NOITEMPLE15 — 06.23.06 @ 10:22 am
kemperman said:
I’ll admit Crystal is pretty ugly
I certainly hope that you are not refering to anyone’s physical features.
Comment by Shade — 06.23.06 @ 10:25 am
And with that, I’ll close this post and see if we can be more civil in the new post.
Comment by La Shawn — 06.23.06 @ 10:30 am
This comment board has been on fire since I went home last night! I love it!
#37 - Belle, I could care less about you being offended as a white woman because I preface my remarks with me being a black woman. I speak from my vantage point, you stick to speaking from yours. Get over it and YOURSELF.
The comments have been interesting and it also proves that some of you don’t read. I didn’t say that I know what happened, I simply stated my thoughts and what happened to be OPINION. Some of you guys need to go to law school because the commentary was compelling.
But in the end all we all are doing is speculating.
Which is why everyone involved should have been quiet.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 06.23.06 @ 10:36 am