***Scroll down for updates!***
Attention, pro-enforcement readers. Today you will read and hear that George Bush is considering a “compromise” on amnesty-for-illegal-aliens. He may be willing to relinquish his version of the plan for one put forth by Congressman Mike Pence. But it’s much ado about very little.
I’ve heard all good things about Pence. Last month when I read Pat Buchanan’s criticism of his plan, The stealth amnesty of Rep. Mike Pence, and I was a bit dismayed. With Pence. Then I put it out of my mind. But now it’s time to think about it. The following portion of the plan is why Bush is considering it:
[T]he solution is to setup a system that will encourage illegal aliens to self-deport and come back legally as guest workers. This may sound outside of the box, and it is. It may sound far-fetched and unrealistic, but it isn’t. It is based on sound, proven conservative principles. It places reliance on American enterprise and puts government back into its traditional role of protecting its citizens…Private worker placement agencies that we could call “Ellis Island Centers†will be licensed by the federal government to match willing guest workers with jobs in America that employers cannot fill with American workers. U.S. employers will engage the private agencies and request guest workers. In a matter of days, the private agencies will match guest workers with jobs, perform a health screening, fingerprint them and provide the appropriate information to the FBI and Homeland Security so that a background check can be performed, and provide the guest worker with a visa granted by the State Department. The visa will be issued only outside of the United States.
Emphases added. In other words, he proposes that illegal aliens high-tail it back to Mexico for a week or so, with the assurance that they can return, and register for work permits.
Problem #1: Pence is assuming too much. Such ideas may sound reasonable to a handful of illegal aliens, but I doubt the majority would voluntarily return to Mexico or wherever they came from. Pence fails to consider the culture. Aliens prone to sucking up welfare and burdening the health care system, raping children, driving drunk, and fighting territorial wars will not “self-deport.” Just a hunch.
Problem #2: Good grief! Can you imagine the amount of red tape this would generate? There are law-abiding folks waiting in line (some for years) to get visas and/or to become citizens. The current immigration process is in need of drastic reform. It’s rife with bureaucratic incompetence and scandalously wide-open to national security breaches. I wrote about this in my latest Washington Examiner column. (The editor says it was the fourth most popular article in yesterday’s edition.)
Those two flaws taint the whole thing, and if I had time to keep digging, I’m sure I’d find more. Buchanan’s suggestions for dealing with the flow of illegal aliens are echoed by plenty of pro-enforcement Americans, including me:
The crucial steps are these. Build a fence along the 2,000-mile border to stop the flood. End welfare benefits to illegal aliens, except emergency medical treatment. Vigorously prosecute employers who hire illegals. Cease granting automatic citizenship to “anchor babies” of illegals who sneak across the border to have them. Take care of mother and child; then put them on a bus back home…Turn off the magnets, and the illegals will not come. Cut off the benefits, and they will not stay. In five years, the crisis will be over.
The fair and legal approach would be to send illegal aliens back to their countries of origin and suggest they get in line for guest worker visas. Divert some of the funds that go to social services to immigration law enforcement — put thousands of agents on the borders (north and south), authorize local jurisdictions to arrest and detain illegal aliens, and slowly but surely deport them. It may take 20 years, but so what?
Bush has decreed “That ain’t gonna work.” To expect my president to consistently execute the law (dream on), something he’s publicly said he will not do, makes me feel like a wide-eyed, naïve, sixth-grader. And that’s a shame.
Update (7/6): Patterico calls out the Los Angeles Times for implying that pro-enforcement Republicans oppose immigration. Not true. They (and I) oppose illegal aliens remaining in the country and being rewarded for their crimes, including Social Security benefits based on fraudulent employment. What border jumpers do is not called “immigration.” It’s called “crime.” I will no longer use the phrase “illegal immigration.” No such thing.
Robert Novak writes about the underreported “terror loophole” in the Senate’s immigration bill:
In a Heritage Foundation paper published one day before the Senate bill passed, Kobach exposed what he called the terrorist loophole. Section 240d would restrict local police from arresting aliens for civil violations, limiting them to apprehension for criminal offenses. That means a sheriff’s officer could not arrest someone whose papers showed he had overstayed his visa. ”Afraid of arresting the wrong type of illegal alien — and getting sued as a result — many police departments will stop helping the federal government altogether,” Kobach wrote.
Kobach and Royce point out that four of the 9-11 terrorists, all of whom had violated immigration laws, were stopped for speeding before the attack. Had police asked the right questions, terrorists could have been arrested under current law — but not under the Senate bill.
This kind of news is very disturbing. I feel as if I’m trapped in a bell jar, banging on the glass trying to warn people about the devastating consequences of a politically correct and lax method of border enforcement, and no one hears me. Is September 11, 2001, becoming a fading memory? It’s the U.S. government’s DUTY to protect American citizens, not option.
La Shawn:
Before yesterday’t Mexican election, I was “on the fence” with Bush on some issues.
NO MORE.
50% of Mexican voters supported a Castro wannabe. Are these the people we want to invite into our country with open arms? Does any sane person believe these people will vote Republican?
Comment by Frank Zavisca — 07.05.06 @ 8:13 am
BORDERS AND BIZARRO GEORGE W.
What if George W. Bush really believed in enforcing the borders? Allah Pundit presents the Bush immigration speech remix. Put down your coffee before listening. Heather Mac Donald has a must-read (everything she writes is must-read) post over at The…
Trackback by Michelle Malkin — 07.05.06 @ 9:33 am
Great piece! Time to blow the whistle on faux conservatives like Mike Pence. He reminds me of the despicable, unprincipled (and — as history shows)largely ineffective Newt Gingrich, with this TROJAN HORSE “immigration compromise” (read: sell-out) immigration plan of his.
As for President Bush’s blatant and perfidious refusal to carry out his oath of office and defend/enforce our borders, if that is not an impeachable dereliction of duty, I don’t know what is.
– gunjam
Comment by gunjam — 07.05.06 @ 10:36 am
LaShawn, BUSH HAS NEVER DECLARED THE EXACT JOBS AMERICANS WON’T DO! Why can’t we get a blog burst going demanding he tell us. Think about it. How do we know how many jobs we need to fill, if nobody’s told us what jobs qualify.
Once Bush tells us the specifics, we can look at the department of labor statistics and know exactly how many jobs we’re talking about. I’m sure whatever number the total number of jobs are in these industries that Americans refuse to enter will be less then the CURRENT level of illegals already here.
Let’s get this started.
Comment by bucktowndusty — 07.05.06 @ 10:39 am
ps. With The New York Time’s propensity to want to tell everything about Bush’s agenda, you’d think at least it would ask this question.
Comment by bucktowndusty — 07.05.06 @ 10:42 am
I’d like to know what the actual cost of citizenship is for those people who do it legally. I’m sure it varies widely, but since usually there are lawyers involved, I’m also sure it costs more than the proposed “fee” for “normalizing” those who have been here illegally for years.
There’s also a problem with the usual immigration requirements - “the jobs that Americans won’t take” are of two sorts: 1)jobs _any_ American with the qualifications would be happy to take if the pay was reasonable(like all those telephone jobs in Pakistan/India, and other computer related jobs here in the US of A), and 2) those jobs with no requirements other than a strong back and the ability to endure long days in physically gruelling conditions. 1) would have no problem - immigration restrictions don’t affect them, but 2)… I question whether those who meet the requirements for 2) would meet some other requirements that we stipulate for legal immigrants. How do we remedy those? Allow them work permits only? That doesn’t seem right. They lack education, but it seems that one of the reasons they migrate illegally is for the education their children get - many recognize that education is the way out of poverty. Restricting them to work permits only would negate that option. I recognize that they _are_ illegals, and in my view, the education we give their children is a form of aid to Mexico. I’d rather give it in that form than almost any other. Just because someone is ignorant doesn’t mean they’re stupid - just because someone is incapable of doing work other than manual labor doesn’t mean that they and/or their children can never do anything else.
When all is said and done, we still need manual laborers, and it’s likely that we always will. As they say…I don’t want to drive a garbage truck - but I’m sure glad that _someone_ is willing to.
Comment by suek — 07.05.06 @ 12:20 pm
suek,
Problem with your argument is: They have babies while here, both the mothers and their young student children. What then? Mexican kids could take tele-classes from Mexico at the out-of-state rate.
As for laborers,mechanize!
Comment by bucktowndusty — 07.05.06 @ 12:51 pm
Suek..As I write this I have people laying tile in my new house. 3 of them can’t speak English. I am waiting to talk to my builder as I am quite sure someone who can’t speak English here in Kansas is probably illegal and I don’t like it. They’re subcontractors. I’m sure my builder will say he relies on the sub to ensure, but this whole thing is a sham and it pisses me off. My house doesn’t cost any less than if a citizen laid the tile. It’s a custom home and every time I pay a bill I see what the cósts are and they are not for $3/hr labor. I don’t buy for a minute this business about Americans not willing to do the job.
Comment by dianne — 07.05.06 @ 12:52 pm
I read a couple of years ago about young guys in small towns in America who can’t find work. You know towns where the big industries have closed or moved overseas. A few weeks later our St. Louis paper did a series about illegal and legal Mexicans in the St. Louis area and some employers who actually go to Mexico to recruit workers. They work for the season (the employer provides housing) then they go home until the following year. I thought to myself why do the employers have to go to Mexico. Why not go recruit in smalltown USA using this same method. I think this stuff about jobs that Americans won’t do is just rhetoric. It boils down to two words. DECENT WAGES!
Comment by Rhondayvoo — 07.05.06 @ 1:42 pm
That’s a great picture of an MS13 gang member with facial tattoos used to ilustrate this piece about the “majority” of Mexican immigrants
Perhaps in future posts we can use a picture of Burmese headhunters to illustrate an article about how the “majority” of Asians abuse the public education system
Or a picture of Idi Amin Dada eating one of his enemies used to illustrate an article about how the “majority” of blacks have poor dietary habits
Sheesh!
Comment by Rev Max — 07.05.06 @ 1:43 pm
The Mexican protesters who claim that this is THEIR continent are idiots. Most of them are descended from people who, just like American citizens, came from somewhere else originally - albeit many generations back.
If they want the benefits of this country without shouldering equal responsibility then what the heck do we need (or want) them for? If things are so doggone tough in Mexico, maybe they should go about the process of educating themselves and doing something OTHER than voting for a Castro wannabe for President of Mexico.
MEANWHILE, to President Bush (with whom I normally agree): “Sir, you CAN deport them all! Even if you have to do it one illegal at a time.” All it’s really going to take is a cessation of the free ride they are finding in this country - free medical care, welfare, etc.
And the ENFORCEMENT OF OUR LAWS AS THE PRESIDENT IS SWORN TO DO.
Comment by Gayle Miller — 07.05.06 @ 1:55 pm
>>I don’t buy for a minute this business about Americans not willing to do the job.>>
Are we in disagreement here? I’m not sure we are…! My point is that I suspect(and more info is certainly welcome if I’m wrong) that present immigration rules would reject unskilled laborers. I don’t know if that good or bad…to be honest, I don’t think we know what laborers we actually need unless we successfully cut off the supply of illegal ones - for long enough to let our citizens take up the slack - if there is one. _Assuming_ (and I’m not at all sure the assumption is valid) that we need unskilled laborers, then I think that the immigration laws should reflect that, and not limit those people to just work visas of some sort.
Comment by suek — 07.05.06 @ 2:12 pm
Dianne:
Illegals don’t work for $ 3/hour - anywhere.
In Texas, the going rate is $ */hr. In CA, the going rate is $ 12/hour. This is enforced by an unofficial “union” - those who undercut this are threatened.
This is why minimum wage laws are meaningless, except for unions that tie pay into the minimum wage.
Comment by Frank Zavisca — 07.05.06 @ 2:33 pm
Let me preface this by saying that I am against illegal immigration, and as far as I know, my restaurant won’t hire illegal immigrants, either. So, if you’re going to reply to what I say, please don’t put words in my mouth for me.
“I don’t buy for a minute this business about Americans not willing to do the job.”
Well, I would have to disagree. I’ve worked in the same company now for seven years, as a waitress in two different restaurants. In both locations, the wages are good, especially for the cooks and dishwashers. There’s great opportunity for advancement for those who perform well. Working conditions are good, and the restaurant is very clean. Our managers are decent people who look after their employees.
The problem is, the jobs are just too hard. I’ve never seen an American-born person last more than a week in the kitchen in either location that I’ve worked. They either get fired for not doing their jobs, or they just can’t take having to actually work for a living. It disgusts and embarrasses me. In the dining room, I’m one of very few Americans who has been around for this long.
Although tips come in like water for people who are willing to work hard, most of the servers just sit around (especially the teenagers–heaven help me, I’m not even 24 yet, and I sound like an old woman!) and complain because no one will tip their lazy selves. It’s the Mexican immigrants who are out there doing the job the right way.
Again, it’s not for lack of money or decent working conditions. I love my job; it’s just very hard work. So yes, I do buy that they do jobs that Americans aren’t willing to do even when the wages and working conditions are good. Laziness and a sense of entitlement seems to be infecting the general population of the United States, from kid to adult. So let’s not blame our unwillingness to get our hands dirty on crummy pay. Some of us are just plain lazy.
Comment by Vida — 07.05.06 @ 2:46 pm
Vida,
As a chef with thirty years experience I would be very curious to know where you are, just generally.
I started off at the bottom, washing dishes and bussing tables. Eventually someone would quit and you would get bumped up to the next highest slot and so it went as I worked my way up the ladder.
This was the case until the mid eighties, I never worked with an illegal alien and I would have known as I was in management and these were smaller restaurants.
Almost immediately after the 86 amnesty there was an explosion of illegal immigrants where I am in Chicago. Suddenly jobs Americans had been doing as long as I’d been in the field were no longer available to Americans. Or had become “Joba Americans wouldn’t do,” which was curious to me as I was still doing it.
I have no idea what the deal is where you are, but as an industry generalization, I talk to kids every day, poor kids from the ghetto here, who would kill for some of these entry level jobs, but aren’t considered primarily because they’re citizens and they don’t speak spanish.
I too have been passed over for jobs because I don’t speak fluent spanish.
I don’t recall a single restaurant ever failing because they couldn’t find an American to do the work pre-1986, now I’m to understand that the entire industry would crumble without the Hispanic super worker?
Pardon my skepticism, but that sounds like a load of rubbish to me, which isn’t to say Hispanics don’t work hard, they do. But you know what? Nobody has ever worked harder than this broke down old white chef in any of his kitchens, no one, ever.
To say Americans can’t do this work is worse than insulting, it’s ridiculous.
One final thought. If you were to ask me what the root cause of illegal immigration was I would say laziness. Finding, training and retaining good employees isn’t supposed to be easy, it never was. But when you can hire easily replacable illegals it makes the business owners life much easier. It really does, but at a cost.
In the businesses I’ve watched undergo illegal alien colonization invariably (and I’m speaking of restaurants here) quality and cleanliness fell (and no, this isn’t a backhanded crack about illegals being dirty or anything, health inspection scores went down), and old hiring and advancement systems that had worked were chucked out in favor of hiring whoever happened to know another illegal.
So I have to wonder if Americans know their welcome at these jobs. I’m rambling a bit here, but there’s a mystery at the heart of this discussion that I have not personally wrapped my head around yet. Why is it Americans of my generation did and do these jobs, yet, supposedly there are no Americans to do these jobs?
Perhaps La Shawn can explain it.
Great post by the way, ma’am!
Comment by Jake Jacobsen — 07.05.06 @ 4:09 pm
Bush and the corporatists - along with Open Borders Liberals - are not only screwing the working & middle class to favor wealthy white gentil and Jewish “Ownership Society” people - they are deeply screwing over inner city blacks.
While I’ve heard the usual paeons to the “hard working Mexican” who makes a “MUCH BETTER EMPLOYEE” than emmmmm….(the person usually hesitates…) than THOSE PEOPLE in the inner city who (1)Don’t work as hard as illegals;(2)Are less reliable;(3) Have real attitude and rejecting authority problems…
The fact remains.
Blacks are American citizens that should come before any illegals.
It doesn’t show in the unemployment rate, but black male long-term unemployment is now at 30-40% in some cities. And the illegals are targeting their jobs and eventually “tip” industries so that blacks are shunned for certain jobs like restaurant workers, landscapers, janitorial, etc…..because “everybody knows” blacks and illegals have language obstacles and don’t work well together. And given many employers think “illegals are better workers” - that means that many “step-up” jobs blacks once flocked to are effectively barred to blacks now and the workforce involved is 100% Hispanic-American or illegals. Leaving inner-city blacks high and dry, except of course in New Orleans, where an illegal alien workforce is being imported to take most rebuilding jobs, restaurant positions.
And Hispanic gangs have taken it upon themselves to “improve” neighborhoods in LA and other cities by making those neighborhoods “Pure for La Raza”. Including the schools. Two gangs in LA have even taken to what gang members call is their obligation to do “n**g*r-hunting”, according to the LA Times, killing blacks at random to drive the remaining ones out. The Times reports “a substantial number” of blacks killed, even women and children, are not tied to drug wars or gang wars as originally thought - but to ethnic cleasing ordered by Hispanic gang leaders.
And the liberal black leadership? How have they responded to the loss of an economic future for inner city blacks and the open racism in schools and neighborhoods? Basically, they refuse to acknowledge it - in favor of old 60s Leftist ideology that now longer applies. Of inherent “black-Brown solidarity”, how the “The Latino will help us defeat the white power structure and allow us blacks to get control of cities and Districts to keep the Democratic Party in power so we get lots of government money”.
It hasn’t worked out that way.
The last people that should be strong advocates of Open Borders are inner city and rural non-property owning blue collar blacks.
Comment by Chris Ford — 07.05.06 @ 5:42 pm
You need to get a grip on reality, we are not going to coerce 11 million people to self deport, period end of story. They are not a criminal class they have a lower per capita crime rate then the rest of society at large. You in the enforcement only crowd are 20% of the overall population. You have a choice you can come to the table and compromise or be left out. You need to grow up and stop sounding like a bigot you judges an entire class of human beings by the actions of a few.
Comment by cameron — 07.05.06 @ 8:54 pm
Cameron, I respect these men and women are looking for a better life, but the fact remains, by entering this country, they’re instantly a criminal. No matter how you slice it, there may be mitigating circumstances, but I know that Mexico is far less patient with foreign citizens who have gone to the trouble of getting naturalized, much less illegals, then we are. THEY ARE HERE CONVERSE TO THE LAW, THEY ARE ILLEGAL, any way you slice it, they are criminals and should be punished.
Comment by John — 07.05.06 @ 9:41 pm
Cameron, since you come in accusing people that disagree with you of bigotry, allow me to respond that you are a … And clearly a muttonhead that needs to grow up herself if you think most of the world’s 6.1 billion people who are mostly good folks that do not want to struggle to develop their own countries but take advantage of America’s situation - have an absolute right to come here.
Open Borders means not just the 11 million, but another 62 million more under the Senates Amnesty proposal, 420 million total in America by 2050, and 650 million Americans by 2100. We can’t accomodate even those numbers let alone the 4 billion “who only seek a better life” you seem to think should be waved in if they show up.
Have you been in AZ or California? Schools are overwhelmed with costs for masses of illegals, and hospitals and clinics al through the worst impacted states have been going out of business right and left because paying customers are not enough to subsidize court-mandated free medical care for illegals. Have you observed the horrendous congestion and pollution problems caused by a 50’s highway system designed for 250 million now overwhelmed by numbers TRIPLE it’s capacity in the Southwest??? Our energy crisis that Lefties say we should CONSERVE our way out of? How do we do that if we struggle and reduce our energy use by say 20% but add 60, 120, 350 million more people (the US Census estimates) in the 21st century onto our existing population of 300 million? Just another 60 million negate all conservation measures.
“They are not a criminal class they have a lower per capita crime rate then the rest of society at large.”
That’s bunk.
For starters, every single illegal is a member of the criminal class because they broke our laws in the process of invading us. But aside from that, almost half the felons in CA, AZ are illegals or the anchor babies of illegals. They have a lower crime rate than blacks, but not the American population as a whole, and as for blacks, illegals may be driving a segment of blacks into criminal activity by taking their jobs and cutting off “stepping stone starter jobs” from being a way black teens can enter the workforce.
No name-calling please. - Admin
Comment by Chris Ford — 07.06.06 @ 12:53 am
No they are not criminals that is nothing but simple minded nonsense. The law they broke to come here was an administrative law, not a moral law. You can criminalize it if you want, it does not change the moral nature of the law that was broken. The law is not the measure of the morality, morality is the measure of the law, and God is the measure of all. You want to rip families asunder using the law as an excuse. The vast majority of these people are decent hard working people who contribute to the communities in which the live. The fact is when you in the enforcement only crowd, celebrated killing reform this year because you couldn’t get the bill you wanted. You betrayed yourselves, you all exposed your concern for our security to be a fraud, by celebrating the failure to get a bill this year. The enforcement only crowd is not concerned with our real enemies who are not coming here to cut grass or hang dry wall. That was a jump the shark moment for you all. Tom Tancredo and his threats have now been shown to be empty. It’s all over now for you except the crying, get over it. The fact is you were always a minority of a minority. The enforcement only crowd was only ever 20% to 25% of the over all population. You never were in a position to dictate terms to the rest of the population. The majority of the population supports the Presidents proposals. Time for the self proclaimed Republican “base” to step back from the edge and stop …
Same goes for you. No name-calling. - Admin
Comment by cameron — 07.06.06 @ 1:09 am
“You want to rip families asunder using the law as an excuse.”
Cameron, that’s a rather upside-down way of looking at things. The illegal aliens are the ones who cause families to be “ripped asunder” by breaking the laws of the United States.
Why is it that the left has such a difficult time with the word “illegal?”
Comment by RedBeard — 07.06.06 @ 7:52 am
La Shawn,
Concerning Your views on IMMIGRATION as posted in the EXAMINER:
I am a native 3rd generation American. My wife is a naturalized US citizen from Africa. We have family that live overseas and will never qualify to come to the US. But I beg to differ with you on immigration when you state that “LEGAL” immigrants are to be more preferred then “ILLEGAL” status ed persons.
Remember some of the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS were the very people that hijacked planes and flew them into the WORLD TRADE CENTER.
THE “LEGAL” IMMIGRANT PATHWAY is FLAWED and FULL of PREJUDICE for the RICH and OR SPECIAL INTERESTS. Saudi Arabians still have special status no matter what their politics or ideologies, AS WELL AS OTHER “CHRISTIAN/WESTERN” Hate mongers from other RICH oil producing countries.
Remember if you are willing to invest one million dollars in the US, form a company and hire 10 US citizens (Who you can replace at will with your own) the Immigration Policy will practically FAX you your citizenship papers.
Many of the illegals here in the USA, are here because of family which are USA Citizens and are in expensive appeal processes and limbo statuses, because their American US Citizens Families must get in the back of the line so the RICH and Special Status ed Foreigners of “WHO CARES WHAT THEIR BACKGROUNDS ARE” are given permission to GET IN FRONT of the line for CITIZENSHIP.
THE ENTIRE SYSTEM NEEDS FIXED !!!
I know because I have been there.
Comment by godsaves — 07.06.06 @ 11:34 am
Jake,
I wasn’t questioning any particular person’s work ethic; I was criticizing what I see as a deterioration of American work ethic in general. I also realize that my small sphere of experience–two restaurants in southern and south central Wisconsin (one in a GM town with a very suburban feel and one in Madison)–hardly amounts to anything other than anecdotal evidence.
I’ve been a trainer for six of my seven years on the job, and the amount of effort it takes to get someone to do his job correctly has gone from somewhat difficult to nightmarish. Good trainees are few and far between now, whereas six years ago, I actually had fun training people. If I’ve noticed that steep a trend in just seven years of experience, I very much doubt it’s my imagination.
Almost none of our new (American) employees can speak Spanish, and most of the supervisors and managers can’t, either, aside from a few broken phrases here and there. It’s certainly not a requirement for hiring.
I didn’t say Americans can’t do the work; I said most aren’t willing to. Don’t take that personally. It could certainly be different in different parts of the country, but I’m not just making this stuff up. I’m telling things the way I’ve seen them for seven years (nothing on your 30, I know, but that doesn’t change what I know to be true). I come from a town where factory workers would go on strike for getting paid more than $20/hr and receiving outstanding health benefits. I don’t think it’s that far-fetched that a difficult restaurant job with merely good pay and standard health benefits would not be appealing to a lot of Americans.
I don’t understand why you take offense to my comment. This isn’t stuff I’m making up for fun, and it’s not a personal attack. Many of my fellow Americans are lazy. That doesn’t mean you are or that I am. I’m surprised that something La Shawn has written about in the past–laziness and a sense of entitlement–is suddenly a point of disagreement when brought up in the context of illegal immigration. The fact is, people I work with are well-paid, the job is hard, and very few Americans actually stick around after realizing how difficult it is. If I could change that, I would, but I’m not just telling a story here.
Comment by Vida — 07.06.06 @ 12:00 pm
Jobs that Americans won’t do? Nonsense- As Michelle Malkin refuted in three words- WEST VIRGINIA COALMINERS. We have done, are doing and will do- for a fair wage, not illegal slave wages. Enforce the border and business hiring practices. I’d rather pay a little more for a head of lettuce and restaurant meals, than more for my health benefits, school taxes, and police and prison costs! Do the Math- if you can liberal- or were you too busy taking those “humanities” courses?
Comment by Legion — 07.06.06 @ 12:10 pm
Legion,
I don’t know if “liberal” was directed at me or another commentor. I hope it wasn’t because I’m not. I’m about as right-wing as they come. How can I make it any clearer that I’m telling something that happens in real life? How many times do I have to say that pandering to illegals makes me angry? I work in a restaurant in Wisconsin (an entirely different region of the United States from Virginia, where a good work ethic is still alive and well, as evidence by the coal miners) where the pay is good and American-born people don’t stick around. Period. Calling me a liberal won’t change that. It is the way it is.
Comment by Vida — 07.06.06 @ 12:20 pm
Cameron - “No they are not criminals that is nothing but simple minded nonsense. The law they broke to come here was an administrative law, not a moral law.”
Sort of like cheating on your taxes defies not a moral law, but an administrative law, making you a “Non-Criminal” in the process, even if caught and convicted?
Cameron - ” morality is the measure of the law, and God is the measure of all.”
No, the Will of the People is the impetus of law. Not one groups “morality”, nor their religious beliefs.
Cameron - “You want to rip families asunder using the law as an excuse.”
Ummmmm, explain how Americans are “ripping foreign families asunder.” Weren’t they all together in the 1st place? What action broke them apart? Whose decision was that?
Cameron - “The majority of the population supports the Presidents proposals.”
The majority of the population thinks Bush is a tool of Big Business and the Ruling Elites of America on the subject of immigration. They don’t trust a word out of his lips on that subject. The majority in fact oppose amnesty and when they hear 60 million more flooding America in the next 20 years under Bush and the Senate’s proposals, they vehemently oppose that.
Oh, and sorry to La Shawn about name calling - but you, Cameron, posted with the passive-aggressive tactic of labeling all posters with immigration concerns as “bigoted”. And I’m sick of that 40 year old Leftist smear tactic meant to impugne the motive of anyone who disagrees with any Leftist agenda and discredit them as bad or evil people.
Godsaves - “We have family that live overseas and will never qualify to come to the US. But I beg to differ with you on immigration when you state that “LEGAL†immigrants are to be more preferred then “ILLEGAL†status ed persons. Remember some of the LEGAL IMMIGRANTS were the very people that hijacked planes and flew them into the WORLD TRADE CENTER.”
Sorry godsaves, but America’s goal is not to become a nation as overpopulated as China, but our Census bureau has forecast that if we continue our current Open Borders practices, including chain immigration - of bringing in every relative of an immigrant in as desired - we will be a nation of 420 million people in 2050, then 650-900 million by 2100. (more than lived in China in 1950) And demographers and environmental experts say this cannot happen without a substantial degredation in the environment, water & energy shortages, and a severe reduction in our standard of living.
If foreigners seek to avoid the risk and hard work of fixing their own countries in Africa and South America, I can understand their desire to take the easy route and bail to a country that was better run and set up by it’s citizens. But if in the process WE CITIZENS of America determine that accepting 10 million more Africans or such from “family reunification” hurts our country rather than helps it, we have a right to block it. And your wife can then communicate that her uncles and aunts, her several siblings and large numbers of nephews and neices do not have a safety rope attached to her that will pull them all to the USA, that their course must be to work to fix their own African country into something that gives them an acceptable life and future.
And no, none of the 9/11 Hijackers were LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They were here on Visas. Student and tourist ones that we granted all too readily to citizens of a country that supported terrorism before 9/11. All were “administratively - to use Camerons flimsy legal dodge - here ILLEGALLY because they all lied under oath on the nature of their visit, all used illegal ID, and 2 of the pilots were ILLEGAL before they stepped on their final flight because their Visas had expired.
Comment by Chris Ford — 07.06.06 @ 12:31 pm
I lay this whole mess at the government’s feet:
1. Obviously, immigration laws are weak and even the ones we have are not enforced.
2. Hiring “legally” is incredibly expensive - not necessarily because of wages, but because of taxes and entitlements - you’ve got FICA, unemployment, disability, workman’s comp, vacation and sick time, FLMA, health care, profit sharing, retirement, the costs of paperwork and filing, etc. etc. How can it NOT be tempting to hire an illegal and avoid all that? The government has made having legal employees costly and burdensome.
3. Welfare - why WOULD people work hard at entry level jobs when they can sit on their able-bodied behinds and watch their big screen TVs? And no, I’m not stereotyping, I have several in-laws who are on disability or unemployment doing just that.
If they didn’t have this choice, they WOULD do jobs that they WON’T do now.
Comment by ElCee — 07.06.06 @ 1:08 pm
Why is it that the left has such a difficult time with the word “illegal?â€
RedBeard I am not a Liberal. What I am is a rocked ribbed, hard core, Christian conservative. Someone who supported Reagan over Ford, someone most closely related to the Goldwater wing of the Republican party. Only they are not reliably conservative enough for me to consider calling myself a Republican. The enforcement only crowd is rife with bigots and racists. When someone like me who has been called every name in the book for holding fast to my principled conservative views says you sound like racists, it’s because you sound like racists. If the Republican party and conservative in general do not put distance between themselves and the racists that have infiltrated the conservative movement. What took 50 years to build will come crashing down in just a few years. I don’t want that to happen I want the racists out. There is room for compromise on the issue of immigration. If you find yourself unable to compromise then you are an obsessed zealot who I want driven out of the conservative movement.
Comment by cameron — 07.06.06 @ 1:38 pm
Cameron, correct me if I’m wrong but you’re implying that any law you don’t see as moral is thereby voided? I remember hearing about that when Hitler thought it was moral to kill the jews so he ignored the whole “murder is illegal” thing. I’m not saying you’re Hitler, (and if you claim I did I will know for sure you’re gonna need a trampoline for all the jumping to conclusions) But what I’m saying is, just because YOU think it’s right doesn’t make it so. Laws are created to form a consensus of the citizens. I’m not a christian, but frankly from a completely objective point of view (sorry LaShawnm making a point) you and God have no more moral authority then an Jewish man and Yahweh or Allah and a Terrorist do in your eyes. Right is not made in a book. Right is in the hearts and interests of a people. Why is murder wrong, because it hurts people, It’s not wrong and illegal cause it’s a commandment, it’s a commandment because it’s wrong. The laws are not based on the bible. The bible shares many values with laws, because they both share a sense of being good to other people and not doing wrong, but to base laws directly on the bible (or any religious text) is called a theocracy, and it tends to work badly for everyone of a different faith, and I’m pretty sure the constitution is against screwing over people of a different faith. Please, don’t misunderstand what I’m saying, I’m not bashing christianity or you personally, I’m saying that just because it’s your faith, and your opinion, that doesn’t make it right. As for the minority of us being enforcement nuts, people who recognize themselves as Christians on any level of adherance only make up about 50% and a rapidly falling portion of america. It’s down from 70% during ‘81. So be careful referring to the minority. It only takes more then the next guy. There are more then 2 sides to this, and 25% may be the largest single minority. So, to make this utterly clear, I AM NOT BASHING CHRISTIANITY, I am simply saying it’s not the basis of our laws or all of this nation’s citizens.
Comment by John — 07.06.06 @ 3:54 pm
>> Laws are created to form a consensus of the citizens.>>
Laws establish the minimum behavioral standards a particular society will accept. Religion, on the other hand, establishes ideal behaviors for people to aspire to. Having either standard as the single standard for a society is impractical - either you have a religious standard that has standards that virtually no one an attain(the Taliban,eg), or you have legal standards that find any behavior acceptable unless there’s a law against it. Have you any idea how many laws people would want in force to make society liveable? Do you _really_ want to live in that kind of society?
Comment by suek — 07.06.06 @ 4:27 pm
Cameron, illegal immigration is about lawbreakers, not about race.
If you want to accuse me of being a racist, you should point to my posted statements that so indicate. I’ll wait patiently while you attempt to do so, and I’ll be happy to accept your apology when you fail.
Your last statement was perhaps the least lucid, indicating that only obsessed zealots want the law followed and refuse to compromise with lawbreakers or with those who condone lawbreaking.
Seems to me that you have a few issues to work out before you begin accusing people of being zealots, racists, etc.
Comment by RedBeard — 07.06.06 @ 4:35 pm
Amnesty Shamnesty
North Korea? Not scaring me (not yet anyway, maybe if they get some missiles that work, but not yet). Iran? Yeah, scary, definitely scary, but unlike N. Korea, they don’t have bombs OR missiles (yet). What scares me is what…
Trackback by insomnomaniac — 07.06.06 @ 4:41 pm
CHRIS FORD,
You are a hate filled person. My relative is an 80 year old Mother-in Law in need of Chemo Therapy.
May God judge between you and her.
Your hate and hardened heart is as sickening as the rest of the S
Comment by GODSAVES — 07.06.06 @ 8:31 pm
Godsaves, I don’t mean to be contrary, but are you so sure it’s not in God’s plan that this “flawed system” is the situation it is. I’m not wishing death or suffering on anyone, many of these countries are in a terrible position. If I had all the water, food, and livable land in the world, I’d give it to them, but the planet is a 0 sum game, and to give them quality of life, it has to be sacraficed in other places, whether it’s to bring them to a better country or anything. How far do we let the quality of life fall for those of us who are here? Tell you what, everyone who’s here brings one reletive (you can have your mother in law.) Put us somewhere in the neighborhood of 500million people. Then you get intermittant power, fresh drinkable water on either odd or even days days and…no wait, the already strained medical facilities don’t have the supplies for your mother in law’s chemo. In fact, due to horrible living conditions and unclean water, 1/5 of all american people now have some form of terminal viral disease. Now, we’ve got 500,000,000 people, each of them can bring a reletive because the system is broken and that’s the best way to fix it.
Which way do you think we can do the most good for these third world countries in Africa and South America, by doing what little we are or opening our borders and becoming powerless to help ourselves, much less anyone else?
Comment by John — 07.06.06 @ 9:00 pm
God saves - You are a hate filled person. My relative is an 80 year old Mother-in Law in need of Chemo Therapy.
May God judge between you and her.
Your hate and hardened heart is as sickening as the rest of the S(Americans??)
No, you instead sound like another parasitical scammer trying to hornswaggle America into an obligation to provide free medical care for the citizen of a foreign country, who happens to be a relative of yours.
Rather than chipping in your familial obligations.
As our medical system is nearly bankrupt, we have no margin for leeches with money of their own like you seeking to import millions of their extended families for freebie care.
Love of God gives you no excuse to suck the lifeblood out of this country merely to avoid spending your own funds to care for your relatives in another country….
A leech like you has no hardened heart or hate. Nor can you reach God….as you basically boil down to being nothing more than a bloodsucking worm simply seeking to have other Americans pay for your wife’s foreign family’s medical bills.
May God judge you as too cheap to pay for Chemo for your wife’s mothers care back in Africa.
Comment by Chris Ford — 07.06.06 @ 10:33 pm
Hey Vida,
Jake here, no accusation intended, nor offense taken. I am just generally curious, I can’t say I haven’t seen some of what your talking about and I can’t help but wonder if kids are starting their work lives perhaps as young as we did.
When I was nine I told my dad I wanted a certain bike, he told me in no uncertain terms that he would buy me the cheapest bike in the store and if I wanted a better one I better get a job. So I lied about my age and spent the summer caddying and on rain days I worked in the kitchen.
Anyway, you are right about one thing, it is somewhat different in a big city that is willing to admit to having over a half a million illegal aliens. I talk to a frightening number of people who have been forced out of most of the trades here. So it’s most certainly not “jobs Americans won’t do” considering they were doing them when they got fired to be replaced by illegals.
Comment by Jake Jacobsen — 07.07.06 @ 3:31 am
Wow this has been an interesting debate. I wish we were all around a big table somewhere talking this out face to face.
One more comment, though to VIDA..not meaning to pick on you lady, but
I am originally from Wisconsin. Nearly all my relatives still live there and I have a home there. I really have to challenge your comments on work ethic in the state. My own mother worked as a waitress up to the time she was in her early 70’s in order to supplement her meager social security. Granted, she was in good physical shape, but she did it because she didn’t want to be dependent on her kids or the “system” to pay her bills. My dad, now deceased, spent his working life on a loading dock and supported a family of 6 kids. I have farmers in my family who work from dawn to dusk and then some. Indeed, nearly everyone I know in the great State of Wisconsin puts in an honest days work for an honest days pay.
I know there are people in Wisconsin and all over the country who would rather sit on their butt than earn their living, but I must say this is not the norm anywhere in the country. We have one of the highest, if not the highest, productivity rates in the whole world. We don’t have guaranteed jobs. We don’t have 6 weeks vacation the first year on a job. We don’t have guaranteed medical benefits. We don’t have a free secondary education. We WORK for all these things and when we see what we have worked so hard for taken away from us and given to someone who is here illegally, we get very very upset.
And, now I’ll shut my trap on this issue.
Comment by dianne — 07.07.06 @ 7:37 am
If you can’t comment on this board without calling people hateful and other names, you’re out of here permanently. This is your last warning. Make an argument! - Admin
Comment by godsaves — 07.07.06 @ 7:55 am
Dianne,
I know a lot of people like the ones you mentioned. Tons, but the trend I notice is primarily in younger people, which is what really worries me. Anyone over 30 does tend to be hard-working, but that seems to be the cut-off age. Most of the people who apply for jobs at my restaurant are under that age limit, usually mid-20’s. I’m also talking about suburbia here; these are people who’ve never seen the business end of a hoe and probably never will, and if they did, they’d be offended just by the idea of getting their hands dirty.
Comment by Vida — 07.07.06 @ 1:28 pm
I agree Diane, this has been, overall, a remarkably decent discussion. especially on what is by any standard a volatile issue.
Comment by Jake Jacobsen — 07.08.06 @ 6:20 am
Tom Tancredo Says Bush Violating Oath of Office and Bill Clinton did Better on Illegal Immigration Enforcement (Audio)
Congressman Tom Tancredo was on the Jim Bohannon Show recently discussing his new book In Mortal Danger: The Battle for America’s Border and Security. During the discussion he made some very interesting statements. He mentioned that he felt Pr…
Trackback by Independent Conservative — 07.09.06 @ 1:47 am