On the negative portrayal of black women in the black music industry, Scott said, “It is dirty, inappropriate, inadequate, unhealthy and polluted. We can demand more.”
Demanding ain’t “getting.” Don’t hold your breath, sister.
Market forces, and all that…
Commenter Shade says:
The thing that disturbs me more than the videos is the actual dancing that goes on at parties (which is probably greatly influenced by the videos). “Freak dancing†has almost totally replaced normal dancing among black youth and they tend to defend it vehemently. I recall a guy on another blog comparing “whorishness†to the tendency of the French not to bathe daily. As it has become the norm to bathe every 3 days in France, they don’t notice an odor and as “whorish†behavior becomes the norm for young women, the actual “whorishness†is not noticed.
Commenter Frank reminds us that every generation has its version of “freak dancing” that older folks object to. Is this generation’s “rump shaking” and “ground pumping” style worse than Elvis’s pelvis gyrations?
Commenter ZIPLA says:
Interesting statement coming from someone whose lyrics include: I’m not afraid to be your lady I’m not afraid to be your whore; Kiss this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and that. Show each other where the climax is at…Don’t get me wrong, I luv Jill Scott as an artist however, Why do you look at that speck in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
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The thing that disturbs me more than the videos is the actual dancing that goes on at parties (which is probably greatly influenced by the videos). “Freak dancing” has almost totally replaced normal dancing among black youth and they tend to defend it vehemently. I recall a guy on another blog comparing “whorishness” to the tendency of the French not to bathe daily. As it has become the norm to bathe every 3 days in France, they don’t notice an odor and as “whorish” behavior becomes the norm for young women, the actual “whorishness” is not noticed.
What black youth? ‘Freaking’ has replaced dancing for all students, black and white, public and private. The effects of this stereotype aren’t limted by boundaries.
Good point Shade (and Jared is correct also…it goes across our entire American culture now).
Send your kids to Chicago and let them learn how to step. That will get them to appreciate real R&B and real dancing. I don’t watch videos anymore and my little one had better not even think of dancing like a video chick.
I wonder…
In all this talk about illegal immigration and the huge hypocrisy being spewed by both sides, “liberals” and “conservatives”…..
I’m saddened to see how we’ve forgotten the humanity of these people.
I just have respect for anyone who is willing to risk life and limb to come here and work extremely hard to make a better life for themselves and their families.
What about all those Cuban “asylum seekers” and defectors. Only after a year they can get permanent residence status here. Why cant we do something similar for these other groups?
>>I just have respect for anyone who is willing to risk life and limb to come here and work extremely hard to make a better life for themselves and their families.>>
I agree with you – to an extent. Yes, they should come legally – but I think our immigration system needs a total overhaul so that becomes a realistic option. Second, they need to learn English or at least _attempt_ to learn English. I know that’s tough, and we should give them every possible help we can, but ballots should _not_ be printed in any language other than English. We should not be obliging governmental agencies to print stuff other than critical safety info in anything other than English. Etc.
They need to _choose_ – are they Mexican or American? Choose one or the other, but the language of the US of A is English, and an _unwillingness_ (as opposed to not doing it very well) to try to learn it indicates to me an unwillingness to integrate. I don’t care what they speak at home, but in the “outside” world, the language is English.
Well…_that_ was off-topic. Sorry – got my threads mixed, I think.
Dancing….absolutely agree with you. I’m glad my kids are grown – I’d hate to have to deal with this stuff. There’s so little moderation – it’s either “this way” or not at all. Agree with the person who said it’s all kids, not just black. I think it started in the black community, but it’s everywhere. It seems odd to me that a group that considers itself so oppressed can be so copied by its oppressors….
Why is there Black Entertainment Television? It wallows in glamorizing the crude and speaking in tongues. There is a thin veneer of dealing with elevating issues and history, but if BET dropped the positive programming, it would not lose a single viewer. It is engaged in chumming for bottom feeders. And it is very profitable. Pornographers usually do make big profits.
Trite and played junk that’s already been responded to during my almost three years of blogging. Don’t play to stereotype, Monica. Challenge yourself. Try to be less personal and more constructively critical. It would be a welcomed change. Oh, and read a few more posts before you try to comment again. – Admin
Its funny how we complain about the imagery of women, specifically black women, in hip hop and such yet, why don’t we hear as much about the portrayal of black men in the same genre? Personally, I don’t agree with much of the portrayal of black men in hip hop of being “street wise”, ignorant, over-sexed and under educated. Always looking for the next hustle, etc.
Beleive it or not there are black men out there who are not looking to be players and pimps, or who have never seen the inside of a jail.
I think the complaining needs to stop being about just one group or another. The entire image of hip hop is a derogatory one. One that does no good for male or female. Why is Karrine Steffans on the panel? Isn’t she part of the problem?
I see the downward trend all the time when trying to hire entry-level people. One kid showed up recently for his interview with his oily long blonde hair covering his face, wearing a t-shirt with Ozzy Osbourne on it and jeans with holes at the knees. No idea on earth how to behave in public. As Shade indicated, low expectations = low results.
>>No idea on earth how to behave in public.>>
Absence of parenting. Major problem. Children are little savages until they are civilized…civilization takes the full 20 years they are dependent on us, and then some sometimes. Physically absent parents aren’t doing the job. Some parents are physically present, but responsibilly absent. It isn’t likely to get better with continued small families.
La Shawn hit it on the nail when she makes reference to “market forces”. Many people don’t realize that there exists “alternative hip hop” which is practically never played on the radio and on video shows. Alternative hip hop often involves live instrumentation, socially conscious lyrics, and elements of classical, jazz, funk, rock, and punk. It is more closely related to how hip hop originally was before it was usurped by thuggery and today’s alternative hip hop scene was born on the college campus. Many of the artists are critically acclaimed, yet don’t make nearly the money of commercial rappers.
I find it amazing since I’ve basically viewed “underground” as that which is censored from mainstream do to explicit content, yet with hip hop today, it is the reverse and commercial hip hop is the very booty shaking, gangsta stuff we fret about while the innocent stuff is what you have to go out and search for.
There are many stories to be told that aren’t about our sexuality,” Scott said.
Interesting statement coming from someone whose lyrics include: I’m not afraid to be your lady
I’m not afraid to be your whore; Kiss this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and that. Show each other where the climax is at.
Don’t get me wrong, I luv Jill Scott as an artist however, Why do you look at that speck in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
When C. Delores Tucker tried to rally folks to shut down this very behavior she was reviled, shunned and mocked. I agree with LaShawn, “market forces & all.†As all Christians know, the times will wax worse & worse so we should not be disheartened by what we see.
Give me a break. Stop blaming the industry that gives the people what they want. If people didn’t buy it, the record labels wouldn’t produce it. I see women dancing to the most degrading songs out there, dying to hook up with the rappers making them, etc., etc. Whatever.
And to have Stevens there as a panelist is the ultimate hypocrisy that will keep me from taking this publicity stunt seriously. She basically glorified the lifestyle in glorious titillating detail and refused to accept any accountability for her own depraved behavior, blaming men, blaming the industry, anyone but herself….please.
La Shawn:
The opposition of parents and others to “freak dancing” is nothing new. And teen agers will ALWAYS find a way to watch and do this stuff. Parental opposition only increases ticket and music sales.
This sounds just like the stuff I saw 2 weeks ago today – at Graceland in Memphis.
Videos of Elvis dancing brought back memories of Sister Theophane, my seventh grade teacher. She stood at the entrance to Memorial Auditorium in Buffalo to make sure none of her students would get in to see Elvis’s “immoral” gyrations. Some of my classmates were there, and left when they saw Sister Theophane.
In high school, my oldest daughter Jane (now 34) had a friend who was not allowed to dance of listen to rock and roll music at home; when she came to my house, guess what they did?
ZIPLA
Would you consider those lyrics degrading to women? With Jill Scott, we have a singer who sings almost entirely songs about love and romance and occasionally her lyrics take a rather sensuous tone. Whether one agrees with this or not, it is quite different from sexually debasing lyrics so common in today’s music. A woman can sing Jill Scott lyrics to her husband and most of her songs and lyrics are not sexual in nature.
“Why is there Black Entertainment Television?”
Most likely for the same reason there is MTV, and it’s a free country.
But I would not like it if MTV was called “White Entertainment Television” and presented whites as the kids on MTV or as a role model. But I don’t watch much BET, which I think has an older audience than MTV?
I agree about Stevens. If she legitimately expressed a change in life, then I could see her as one trying to convince others not to take the road that she took. But it seems to me that she is simply exploiting her past exploits for profit and does not truly regret her behavior.
I have never been deeply into the hip hop culture. A friend of mine came to visit me from my hometown (near DC). She brought a couple cd’s of some “Alternative Hip Hop” It was some of the most inspiring works I’ve ever heard. Talking about bettering yourself, and not debasing women. I mean most people view it as almost a joke to hear hip hop talking about taking care of your child, even when you’re not married to the mother. To refer to being good to women, to be a positive role model, to encourage young men to think of being a rapper as an art form, and not an easy way to big money, to work hard to make yourself, and your community better. It’s out there, unfortunately the prospect of handouts and a life of entitlement has created a culture where the three occupations kids want to persue come from easy, glamerous money, Rapper, Sports star, and Dealing. This is what leads people away from the inspirational music (not always, but occasionally with christian themes) that would encourage them to better their situations instead of getting Ho’s a dealing.
People love to hear how disgusting other people are. Whether they are younger than us, older than us, more foreign than us, blacker than us, whiter than us, more/less uptight than us. THEY are always worse than US!
There is obviously a market to hear how filthy and feeble the french are, how fat, dumb and obnoxious the americans are, how vile and unnatural the homosexual, how brutal the african, how wily and honour-less the arab, how deceitful and dog-eating the Chinese, how cockroach-like the mexican, how avaricious and controlling the Jew, how ugly the ‘Eastern European’ woman, how clever yet sneaky the Japanese, how hairy the Belgian girls, how superior the Nazis, how totally inhuman the Liberal, how evil and fascist the conservative etc…
We LOVE to hear our suspicions confirmed.
And now, checking out the latest bootylicious shaking on MTV … my WORST suspicions are confirmed! I can’t dance. And I’m middle-aged.
*sob* *hiccup*.
There goes society. Again.
Hi Lashawn, I’m new, I love reading your blog, Keep Preaching it. I’m neither a demo nor a repie, I believe in voting for the best person for the job not for a party.
My response to this topic.
A few months ago in one of my graduate course , we had to do an oral presentation on a leader. One black student did an oral presentation on the female CEO of BET Entertainment. Now, the class is predominantly white, me being the other black student felt the need to ask questions about BET. The question to the student was if he thought BET had flourished as a positive Black Entertainment Television. I’m disappointed in BET’s direction. Where’s the arts, the drama, the comedy, the litterature, the intellectual aspect. It’s basically a black version of MTV. This channel had so much potential to basically represent the diversity of the black community in terms of genre but also in terms of programs. All you see all day long are gold teeth, baggy jeans gangsta-like personas dancing with multiple girls shaking their behinds. The student disagreed with me and basically said that the network was doing a good job by just providing music. One white female student backed him up. I think Hip-Hop is giving just a bad image to blacks in general, it’s an industry that embraces stereotypes, violence and foul language. How many times have my white co-workers and friends questioned my blackness, according to them, i don’t act black enough, because I don’t dress hip hop. I’m getting tired of always hearing you’re acting like a white boy because I articulate when I speak (despite the fact that English is my second language), I have the so called “preppy” look and I’m just not “down with it”. I feel BET help promotes these stereotypes. I have nothing against Hip Hop, I love the genre, in a clean way, it can be beautiful. I was a huge fan of Kanye West (until his comments about the Katrina) song “Diamonds are Forever” which spoke about diamond mines in West Africa. I thought it was powerful in substance, but also in style mixing the James Bond music with his own music. and Mary J Blige “Can’t be without You” is my song But to Whites, I’m not black enough. Interestingly, I’ve worked in pre-dominantly black environment and the hostility towards me for not being “hip hop”, acting a certain way or talking a certain way was hurting at times and isolated me. I worked in a company that was pre-dominantly white, my first day everybody greeted me, came to offer their help, made sure I was fine. It was the best welcome ever, many of them even became some of my very best friends. The same company transferred me to another location which had a pre-dominantly black workforce and the hostility I felt was hurtful, I ended up quitting shortly after. I had a conversation with one person, who apparently didn’t trust white people at work. With what I had been through, I told him that at least there’s respect. When I had started working at that company, one of the very first thing the boss told me was that “we may not like each other, but we have to respect each other and treat each other professionally”. It really hit home because I realized I’m using that as a motto in my life and my interaction with people. I’d rather work in a place where people might not like me for some reason but respect me and willing to have a professinal working relationship. I always joke that if I ever write a race relation book it would be titled “white people don’t bite, not all black people are gangstas” After that class, he looked at me with disappointment and went on ignoring me. He dressed hip-hop and in class discussions tends to use vernacular. I don’t. I did feel bad, like maybe he felt I should have have backed him up being that I was the only black student in the class and instead argued about BET’s direction. But at the same time I had to be honest with my feelings about BET and the over emphasis on the negative long term effect that the Hip Hop industry project.
“Its funny how we complain about the imagery of women”
Not really. Women historically are called sluts, and not men. It’s a patriachal religious thing I think. The more ultra-conservative muslim has even stricter complaints about women…
JohnD- You forgot “how self-righteous the British”
Oh yeah, self-righteous. And ugly-skinned, rotten-toothed, terrorist-fellating, smelly, etc etc.
It’s a marvel I’ve retained any humour or self-respect being born in such a horrible culture by such horrible people
PS I don’t ‘get’ that kind of rap music that calls women ‘bitches’ and is all about nothing other than showing off and dangling massive jewels of one’s body. And what’s with that weird limping walk? I think I remember pretending to limp at school when I was a teenager once or twice, because it looked ‘tough’. Is it the same thing?
“But to Whites, I’m not black enough.”
To Jason:
I’m white, and I don’t care how you want to dress or talk. Is it most whites in the world that you are talking about? Or just American whites? or just a sub-group of whites?
Regards,
John
In response to Shade’s Comment #18 -
YES, I do believe some of Jill Scott’s lyrics are degrading to women: “I’m not afraid to be your whore.” Not much further down you can go from there.
Yes, yes, I know the point of the song is a female lover singing to her male lover – however, if a young women takes literally “those very lyrics” what would we visually see – a (hip hop-style) booty video! For me, singing about “being your whore” is neither sensuous or romantic – singing about “being your whore” is strait up raunchy not the raunchiest I have seen or heard yet still raunchy. Oh, I guess I am to believe that its not raunchy when Jill Scott or Marvin Gaye use sexually suggestive lyrics?
And I beg to differ, I believe most of Jill Scott’s songs are about sex with her man (not husband)and we’ll again look how far society has defiled that freedom (sex outside marriage)- I’ll digress because that’s another topic altogether.
Zipla -
A small correction: Jill Scott is indeed married and her husband Lyzel is a graphic designer. They got married 2 or 3 years ago. And you are taking one lyric way out of context. But everyone’s entitled to their opinion. And NONE of her videos are degrading to black women at all.
“There goes society. Again.”
Oh, the up-tight Puritans are on a rage again. Why can’t people be more like……well……(the commenter?)
Hogarth’s London was interesting. The Brits crucified the Chinese with opium. Now Londonstan is crawling with “challenging cultural shifts.”
American cities have whole areas of juiced up residents who enslave their neighbors in fear of their feral behavior.
Societies do fail. It takes no courage to be a glib arm chair critic. It is much more personal and challenging to take the part of being an agent for positive change. But “positive change” requires a belief system. And most glib arm chair critics are above moral codes, belief systems and tenets of faith. Pity, that.
Thanks for that info Tiffany. So Jill is married. Jill Scott sings grown folks music not hardly listened to by kids. Maybe she does get risqué with her lyrics but I don’t see it as degrading women. Being your lover’s “whore” and being a whore in general are different things. For one, it’s a figure of speach and you have to look at the context of it. If there is a time whereas a woman can let her hair down and open up sexually, it would be with her husband. Scott doesn’t specify whether the lover she sings about is her husband or that the song is meant to be sung to husbands, but it can easily be interpreted that way. Why can’t a woman be her husband’s “freak” and vis versa. If they love each other and have made that commitment and taken those vows, then it is nothing degrading.
Shade: My wife and I will celebrate our 43rd anniversary on September 5. When she gets home from her shopping, shall I call her “my whore” and see where it leads?
Degrading is as degraders do. I sometimes get a bit goofy and call her “sweet pea” and junk like that. But I just don’t see the time when she would ever look deep into my eyes and beg me to tenderly call her a whore. Maybe I just don’t understand how to be a charmer.
Helitrope:
“Societies do fail” Yes indeed!
Walter Williams has an excellent piece at Jewish World Review about the tragic state of education for black kids. Staggering statistics.
Cities that keep churning out kids who cannot read will ultlimately fail.
Nuff said.
These comments bring two things to mind.
#1 What are we going to hear when the capability arises for civillians to move “off world” and live in either advanced space stations or on other planets? Is there going to be some gigantic uproar that there is racial prejudice in who can go to space cause it’s priced so only white people can go? For that matter, will white’s be the “rich and privlaged?” I can almost promise that some socioeconomiracial group will be mad that they’re “stuck with Earth” while their richer counterparts are finding better lives on new planets.
#2 What are anthropologists going to say 10,000 years from now when they look at what’s left of american civilization? Are boom boxes and drug paraphanalia gonna be the “arrowheads” of the coming generations? Some five year old runs into his kitchen from the field he was playing in to find his mother, “Look Mommy I found a glass tube.” “Sweetie, that’s a bong, ancient americans used it to escape their social problems.” I can already see it.
Heliotrope, Comment #32 was WELL SAID. Thank You – I couldn’t have put it better.
Jill Scott brought her boudoir lingo into a public forum. I don’t think I have taken her lyrics out of context. What is “grown folks music” ? O, music that is acceptably racy, risque’, etc. and that standard is okay?
I am saying we get on a slippery slope when we start defining which “grown folk music” is okay for public consumption and what is not. Again, if someone other than Jill Scott put that same song (about being “your whore”) to video the end product would be a raunchy booty video – soft porn. So when we start lowering the standard it opens a flood gate. Marvin sang about sexual healing and it opened up a flood gate – he pushed the envelope and that envelope continues to be pushed and standards will continually be lowered. Jill sings about “being a whore” the next artist will sing about being a “Queen Bitch” OOPS, that has already been done.
With all that said, it doesn’t diminish the fact that it is good to see more mature artists telling other artists to clean up their act.
Jill Scott tends to “call out” Black men who date outside of the Black race.
“Good point Shade (and Jared is correct also…it goes across our entire American culture now).”
I was channel surfing and did a double take. What did I see? I had passed the channel and had to go back. I found it and the video was still on. It was the country music channel. I did not know the male singer. The women in the video were freak dancing like you see in the hip hop and rapper videos on BET. At the end of the video, the country music singer is between two women. All you see of these two bent over women are their shaking and rather cheeky rear ends.
Heliotrope said:
“Oh, the up-tight Puritans are on a rage again. Why can’t people be more like……well……(the commenter?)”
No need to be defensive Heliotrope, I wasn’t attacking you or anyone in particular. My comments about me being middle-aged and not being able to dance was purely an attempt at both self-deprecation. Sorry it went down the wrong way. If you knew me, you’d soon tire of my constant griping and moralising commentary regarding ‘popular culture’, ask my poor family.
“Hogarth’s London was interesting. The Brits crucified the Chinese with opium. Now Londonstan is crawling with “challenging cultural shifts.â€
Ok, so you gathered I was born in Britain, but you’ll get no defence from me by firing off random examples of cultural crapness. I’m surrounded by kids in Britain who aspire to what they think is ‘cool’ culture by way of 1. Fast food 2. Rap/R&B music. 3. Obsession with ‘expensive’ sports clothes. 4. What’s a f**** book? Only ‘fags’ read books…” 5. Not giving two hoots about ‘old’ people or people who ‘look funny’.
We also get the worst of what is called America over here. I’ve lived in America with my wife, who is American. And it was great to know that there were as many different types of people there as there are in my home country. My point is that NONE of us are above jumping to conclusions. I guess I like to discuss things more than I like a lynching party. I am stuck between wanting to thump kids in the street for their shocking rudeness and agression, or take them to a loving home and throw their parents in jail for abuse. This includes Neo-Nazis as well as drug-addled morons.
As for the black gangster fashion/lifestyle? From the outside it looks like shallow, degenerate, woman-hating, macho type of vanity?
For all the complaints about ‘multiculturalism’, most of what I see in reality is a shallow, monolothic and selfish pursuit of monetary riches for adornment and base attempts to garner peer-approval.
“American cities have whole areas of juiced up residents who enslave their neighbors in fear of their feral behavior.”
Is that about having incredibly low aspirations/poor education/useless parental role models?
“Societies do fail. It takes no courage to be a glib arm chair critic.”
I completely agree. Of course I could solve everything by suggesting that we bombed it all into glass, or I could blame it on liberals, or conservatives, or both, ad-nauseum? Would that make me less ‘glib’. How much courage does it take you to post on a messageboard? Please consider that before ripping into someone who was just excercising some light-heartedness. I thought the Elvis comment was funny.
Heliotrope inferred:
“It is much more personal and challenging to take the part of being an agent for positive change. But “positive change†requires a belief system. And most glib arm chair critics are above moral codes, belief systems and tenets of faith. Pity, that. ”
I have a wife and child. I run three jobs. Our son is 18 and attending college. We have constant contact with his lecturer so that we know he’s doing his work. If he’s stuck, I’m there. I’ll drive all night. No question. He just got 90% merits and is going on to University. He also runs his own online business and has won industry awards for his achievements. One when he was only 13. None of our family cause trouble for others. In my spare time I have volunteered to serve on weekend camps for inner-city kids who come from troubled and poor families. Also our son and his friends (when we lived in the US) volunteered with the local Police Athletic League. I also pull him up sharp when he starts up with racism and picking on kids who aren’t as educated/smart as he thinks he is. That kind of ‘pride’ is like a cancer. Luckily he’s growning up pretty fast, but is still a self-absorbed git sometimes, I guess like most teens.
I have many faults, we all do, but I will not stand by and be called ‘glib ‘and ‘above moral codes’. My belief system isn’t up for discussion here. But as mentioned above, I believe that bringing about positive change must start with myself, my family. I don’t want to live in a gated communtiy. I want to be a part of an open community. Unfortunately parent’s are failing their kids by either brainwashing them at home letting them fail at school.
I will remember not to make jokes in future. But please do suggest how I might bring about positive change?
Surely that would be much more positive, (and much less glib) than snarkily insulting me via the internet for being bereft any moral compass or spiritual guidance? Or just complaining that we are all going to hell in a handbasket. If we are drowning then why describe the water? Help people learn to swim, they might save us one day, they might not. But offering the hand is the greatest thing.
Apologies for typos above.
To Jason: May I ask why you said ‘whites’ don’t think you are ‘black’ enough?
Please don’t paint us all with the same brush.
Here is the really bad news. As gay or same sex sex becomes more and more apart of the norm, women are going to have to compete with men for men, this is going to change the dynamics of society more than anyone is willing to admit.
Women have always been the gate keepers of the most powerful urge man has, once the barrier or taboo has been erased then what? We all see what the effects of abortion and the pill has done, now let’s unleash the sex for sport idea.
I was sitting in a bar last week listening to a group of 20 something young men talking of their college exploits as bartenders and how they used to have contest on how many women they could have in a certain period of time. When it became so easy and not a challenge with numbers they changed to how many women they could get based on weight in one month. The numbers were staggering!
No woman would ever have this type of contest! Release men from the responsibility of being a honorable man and Katti bar the door.
Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to generalize. I’m really sorry, sometimes when you start talking about your own experience you stop being politically correct and fall into generalization.
I was merely talking about the whites I had encountered in my own daily life experience, specifically when I moved to the suburbs. These whites I was referring to, were people from work, neighbors, classmates ect… I didn’t mean to generalize or make statement about the whole race in the planet. Same goes for my comments on blacks, I was referring to those of my experience from school, work, neighborhood ect…
To answer your question, most of the whites I encountered at work and school expected me to act like the “hip hop image”, talk in vernacular, walk a certain way, I don’t know how to explain it, be a little more rhytmic.
Where I work, we basically had a uniform, kaki pants, black shirts. Well at an office party, we didn’t have to wear uniforms, so I came dressed with a long sleeve shirt tucked in my black pant and some
one lady was shocked and disappointed, she joked that she had expected me to come dressed with baggy jeans and all.
the thing is that in the suburbs, a lot of white teen-agers I encountered want to act “gangsta”, they blast the rap music in the car, dress with baggy jeans and wear chains. When they see a black person, they expect him to act like the guys they see on the Hip Hop videos and when they don’t, they seem disappointed.
I don’t think the lady at the office party was offensive or anything when she was shocked I wasn’t dressed “hip hop”, she’s a very close friend of mine actually, her kids like to dress “thugish”, so she was just reacting to what the music industry is projecting, which I why I said that i don’t think that the music industry was sending positive image. Some people, NOT ALL, of course tend to react and base their opinion on things and people base on what they see and observe. of course that doesn’t apply to everyone.
Again, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to generalize, it’s just from my own experience and encounter and definetely know that the people I deal with on an everyday don’t represent the larger population.
sorry for the typos, I was in a bit of a rush…
Actually ZIPLA, Heliotrope’s post is a flawed analogy since Scott doesn’t sing a song about how her husband called her a whore when she came home. A more accurate analogy would be how much he would be offended if his wife passionately addressed him using the lyrics to that song.
“Grown folks music” is music not geared toward nor marketed to kids. Simple as that. Ten year old girls listen to hip hop. You will be hard pressed to find someone under 21 who is familiar with Jill Scott and will probably find few under 30 familiar with her music. And you proclaim that to be a song about being a whore. I gather that you have read the lyrics to the entire song right? La Shawn links to it. You actually think that a rump shaking video will fit that song? Lets be real. If her music is so offensive, how can you proclaim to love it?
And I cannot fathom how Jill’s music lyrics represent a “log” in her eye while mainstream hip hop lyrics represent a “speck”. You can’t compare her lyrics to the common misogyny found in popular mainstream hip hop. If we do this, then we must totally stop singling out hip hop and start attacking most of popular music, including country western. Think about it. “Save a horse, ride a cowboy”.
I expect that defenders of mainstream hip hop will make the same points that you make about Jill. It reminds me of how liberals attacked Bill Cosby, pointing out his extramarital affair and ALLEGED sexual harassment. They also pointed out certain roles he has played in movies. I am happy to see the more mature and conscientious artists criticizing modern hip hop culture, but if we are going to attack those who criticize it, it is clear that we don’t want change, but rather only look for any excuse to be cynical.
And how exactly is a song from Marvin Gaye in the 80s the start of the downhill decline when you have nearly two decades of suggestive music preceding that song? Plus, aside from the fact that the term “sexual” is repeated throughout the chorus and is in the title, the song is not raunchy. Prince was making much more explicit and truly raunchy lyrics years before that song came out. Madonna made “Burning Up” the year before.
“sometimes when you start talking about your own experience you stop being politically correct”
Thanks for your response Jason, I was honestly curious to what type of people would judge you. But now I see that I got it wrong. Please accept my apologies, communication isn’t my strongest point and much is lost on message boards, lacking as they are in crucial expression, like facial and intonation etc.
You work experience sounds like a real eye-opener, I enjoyed reading your post. As for BET, I agree that it is pumping out negative stereotypes that we would be better off without. But until the demand drops or education/parental responsibility rises, we’re stuck with what people are buying? Unless we stamp it out and introduce the government guide to acceptable dancing, acceptable music and acceptable lyrics.
Anyone ever read ‘Erasure’/My Pafology’ by Percival Everett?
To my dismay, I loved the spoof ‘ghetto’ story more than the rest of the wordy tome. It had ‘character.’ Even if the protagonist was a monstrous, cartoon-like overzealous ebonic-laden macho stereotype – it proved to me that I, like most, enjoy my stereotypes half-cooked and unfettered by reality.
Give me a break. Stop blaming the industry that gives the people what they want. If people didn’t buy it, the record labels wouldn’t produce it.
Drug dealers often make this argument.
All I can say is if Jill Scott’s music is considered a “log” and offensive to women and that someone could booty shake to it, then I must be listening to a different Jill Scott than the one you all are talking about.
I really don’t know if rap music is a cause of bad actions, symptom of another problem or a harmless fantasy, but Forbes had an article on 50 Cent where he comes across as a shrewd business person. Of course he could have tailored his message to the Forbes reporter just as he tailors his music and show to his audience:
http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2006/0703/138.html
I am a high school teacher and last year one of my colleagues provoked a good deal of laughter with the following comment to a lunch table full of colleagues of which I was the youngest at 40. Sally asked “Did anyone see the MTV Music Awards last night?” There were chuckles and smiles around the group as I kindly said, “Sally would you look at who you just asked that question to?” Sally is a 30 year old white girl who dates a Black profesional man. I then added, “How do they have awards for those videos? I mean evertime I am surfing through I see the same video, some undereducated rapper talking about bitches and hos with his crib and his ride and his gold chains and he’s surrounded by his bikini-clad property.” Even Sally had to admint I had a point.
40. “As gay or same sex sex becomes more and more apart of the norm, women are going to have to compete with men for men”
Please.
“I was going to take the Tyra-lookalike home, but that guy looked so good. . . .” Women aren’t competing for the men who are interested in men.
As for Jill Scott, context counts.
I’m surrounded by kids in Britain who aspire to what they think is ‘cool’ culture by way of 1. Fast food 2. Rap/R&B music
What’s wrong with R&B music?
Wasn’t there a movie, Dirty Dancing, about twenty years ago about mostly white dirty dancing in the 1960s, and a few imitation movies. There was also swing dancing and tango before.
My quick impression is that even if one’s daughter is engaging in freak dancing or even Bill Clinton “sex” in middle school it’s not the worst thing that could happen. What really ruins lives is when they don’t grow out of being a juvenile delinquent.
I’m with Shade on this one.
And besides, how can R&B possibly be linked to rap? R&B is actual music.
That reminds me. I’ve got the Riding with the King CD out in my truck. Think I’ll listen to it on the way home.
“What’s wrong with R&B music?”
Oh just me being a miserable old git. You see, I love music. I really do. From Sonic Youth to Sibelius, from Curtis Mayfield to Sly and The Family Stone, from Led Zeppelin to Johnny Cash, from the Clash to Bob Marley,P-Funk, Zapp, The Doors, The Stooges, Aretha, James Brown ( I know I know) Bobby Womack, DJ Shadow, Underworld, Outkast, M.I.A, Beastie Boys, De La Soul (showing my age every second) I could go on all day…and already have…
… but play me some, argh, *Craig David* (UK ‘artist’) and I get caught trying to gnaw on my own elbow to stop the pain in my head! Also the rap-R&B crossover stuff just gets in my ear like a buzzsaw after 10 minutes. I don’t know what it is… sounds to me like a voice-modulation marathon! There’s something so manufactured, generic, insincere-sounding about a lot it (**groan**), and the instrumentation/arranging is, at the best, so often third rate filler stuff.
Thanks Shade, you’ve made me look in the mirror at at this grumpy old man and realise he needs to get out more! I do mean the modern-day rap/r&b crossover stuff mostly. I find it ‘limp’. I do like classic R&B, you know, the stuff with actual rhythm and blues in it
Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Dusty, Etta, etc…
Jamie Foxx? Huh? Run awayyyyy…
But even Stevie W is guilty of Crimes Against Music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZEGHnAxEpo
(** Aural Health Warning **)
I love all types music too including hip hop. it all depends on how the contents are presented. Sadly, I don’t see any diversity in the hip hop genre I agree RB is different than rap. some merge of the two style of music really work, some don’t.
Motown music is my all time favorite, I can listen to it all day long.
There’s nothing wrong singing about love or intimate relationships, I mean all the Motown songs were about love. and even if you’re trying to be provocative, there’s always a way to use double entendre.
In Diana Ross’ “Back in my Arms”, there’s a line that says “each time we make romance”, I’m pretty sure we can all guess what she is talking about.
Freedom to express is everyone’s right, and there’s nothing wrong with artists expressing themselves and singing songs about adult themes. But I guess you have to be aware/considerate of the audience.
Children will listen to that grown folks music no matter the restrictions or the warning labels ect…,
sometimes playing with words is the best approach.
a kid listening to the line “each time we make romance” may not get the double meaning (well in today’s world, many kids NOT ALL probably will get it) but a grown folk knows what makes romance is supposed to be about, but it comes off as less explicit than saying making love or having sex.
That’s why I love the Motown lyrics, because of the time and censorship/restriction, song writers had to play with words to present a clean song and yet still be able to express what they wanted to and movies and TV shows didn’t need to be explicit in making us believe that a couple was in love or someone was angry.
There are better/cleaner approach to express emotionally (angry, sad, mad at the world, in love, in hate, happiness, being rich etc), artists should use that approach to express themselves….
Subtlety is a lost art in modern pop culture. It used to be possible to paint a mental picture that adults would understand and kids would miss.
I’m reminded of Casablanca, when Rick and Ilsa are gazing into each other’s eyes and he says, “We’ll always have Paris.” Every adult knew exactly what went on in Paris, and we didn’t need a cheap graphic plot exposition to demonstrate it. A remake of the film today would surely show the two of them bouncing up and down in a sweaty bed, slamming the point home to the audience with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer.
Same deal with music. The current “in your face” lyrics in so many “songs” are insulting to the intelligence of the audience. Trouble is, the audience members have been dumbed down to the point where they don’t know they’re being fed swill.
Ok, yes, I’m a curmudgeon.
Rant off.
My 2 cents, and worth every penny you paid…
Regarding the use of the word “whore”: everyone pretty much knows what it means, and context or not, you can’t just choose to redefine a word, like, oh, when I say black I mean white really, and when I say red I mean green. Whores sell their bodies. That’s *not* the way I want anyone I care about to describe themselves; and what does it say about the man who accepts that his woman is a whore?
“Regarding the use of the word “whoreâ€: everyone pretty much knows what it means, and context or not, you can’t just choose to redefine a word”
Well we totally redefined the word ‘traitor’, it now officially means people who disagree with the government. We totally redefined the word ‘racist’ it now just means ‘white person’
So that shows that words can be redefined! (sarcasm)
As for the ‘whore’ thing in those lyrics. Of course it has to be taken in context. When we read ‘Tyger, tyger, burning bright’, are we to believe that a tigers fur is aflame?? Because if we don’t we are certainly trying too hard to say that blue really means pink?
That’s what poetry and songs, maxims, sayings etc are about! Context!
There’s a old (considered by some to be humorous) saying that a man likes his wife to be a ‘Slave in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom’.
Does that literally mean that a man wants his wife to be wearing a ball of chain at the cooker, and when he releases her from that duty, he will literally pay her for sex??
Now the extreme feminist will tell you that that is a very LITERAL little phrase and that is EXACTLY what it means. Slave-whore. No context. Racist and sexist, bla bla bla, the Christian concept of womanhood is either ‘whore or madonna’, ’slave or slut’ etc etc.
The reasonable person knows that such a phrase is a humorous way of describing that the average Joe likes his wife to be a virtuous and reliable domestic companion in everday stuff but not TOO boring in the bedroom.
An extremist feminist, or someone, would claim that because the word ‘whore’ was used, then it is to be taken literally as per fits the agenda of the outraged party.
A man might also like to say he’ll be a ’stud’ for his woman. Does that mean the only ‘real’ definition of stud should be applied here? Is this man seriously suggesting that he have bestial man-horse inter-species sex here? What does that say about his wife, that she accepts bestiality? Disgusting!
So what is worse:
A. ‘Cute’ teen Nazi homeschoolers singing about Hitler being a misunderstood man of peace, and that the degenerate gullible’muds’(led by the dishonest liberal Jews) are taking over the ‘Aryan race’.
or is it:
B. Jill Scott telling her husband that he’s gonna ‘get it’ tonight’?
I see which one has provoked the most outrage here.
Is that the same reason that repeated graphic depictions of bloody murders get put out 24/7 on American TV, but a human (female of course) nipple or a dancing bootie sends us into blustering righteous indignation?
Violent death = bring it on.
Anti-semitism/racism/genocide = ho hum.
Naked human body = evil slippery slope.
Sex = It’s the end of the world.
(Dr Evil voice)
Rrrrighhhht.
JohnD,
So “traitor” has been officially redefined? In which dictionary? Just disagreeing with the government certainly isn’t treasonous; leaking classified information that can result in American deaths is. So who has officially called dissenters traitors? And why do you assume that I or anyone else who hasn’t expressly stated such ridiculous opinions agree with such nonsense?
As for outrages, I’m not particularly outraged about Ms. Scott’s use of “whore” here… it seems that you are the one who’s very outraged about people not liking her use of the word. I’ve heard worse, and have found lots more objectionable stuffs out there. I think white supremacists are idiots, but that’s pretty much irrelevant here. Maybe you know of women who like to refer to themselves as slaves or whores for their husbands/boyfriends/whatever, apparently Ms. Scott fits in the category, but that doesn’t change the fact that “whore” is a derogatory term, and that Ms. Scott is complaining about other people demeaning women while she herself uses such words. And unfortunately, derogatory can be in the eyes of the beholder nowadays, as some women think that using sex to get what they want is elevating the feminine status (someone actually published something in the UCLA paper praising Salome for dancing like a hooker to get John the Baptist’s head, go figure).
“Is that the same reason that repeated graphic depictions of bloody murders get put out 24/7 on American TV, but a human (female of course) nipple or a dancing bootie sends us into blustering righteous indignation?”
Most murders on TV, such as on the TV show 24 are obviously fictional entertainment.
Songs whose lyrics are mostly something like “gonna find me a woman tonight” seem to encourage risky behavior.
Not that I would call for censorship, but people don’t have to buy it, or Wal-mart does not have to sell it.
Isn’t there unlimited porn on the Internet anyway.
If there are not enough examples of what sex addiction does to people, check out the movie Auto Focus about Hogan of Hogan Hero’s.
hi fuzz.
“So “traitor†has been officially redefined? In which dictionary?”
The Dictionary Of Popular Partisan Discourse?
Well not really, coz I was just joking (hencethe wink) in an attempt to show that words get used in all kinds of ways by all kinds of people. Sorry if you thought I was being dead literal. I guess if you Googled the word ‘traitor’ you’d just find the dictionary definition and historical instances of people from all over the world
who had betrayed their country? Hint = wrong.
fuzz asked:
“And why do you assume that I or anyone else who hasn’t expressly stated such ridiculous opinions agree with such nonsense?”
Hang on, I never said that, or thought it. Neither did I think that you defined ‘racist’ as a white person’. I was using examples
of words that are re-defined by popular useage. They aren’t ‘officially’ redefined, that was me just me being mildly sarcastic in a good-humored way. Not good examples though, I agree, as the subject in question is JILL SCOTT! An artist! A wordsmith, a songstress, a poet, lyricist. Different rules apply.
OK. So, where were we?
Yes…
I’m NOT arguing that Jill Scott has redefined the word ‘whore’. I’m arguing that people are redefining her USEAGE of the word and making straw-man (straw-woman? straw-whore?!) arguments.
fuzz said:
“As for outrages, I’m not particularly outraged about Ms. Scott’s use of “whore†here… it seems that you are the one who’s very outraged about people not liking her use of the word.”
Nope, I’m not outraged at all about that. I am curious though as to why her (poetic/lyrical) useage is being taken so very
literally.
fuzz said:
“I think white supremacists are idiots, but that’s pretty much irrelevant here.”
I thought we are talking about the effects of popular music. Specifically the ’slippery slope’ of lyrics bringing good people to their immoral knees. LaShawn referenced the popular pubescent twin Nazi singers ‘Prussian Blue’ singing about their ‘white pride’ just this week. So I thought it was a safe bet that:
1. Talking about lyrics being immoral/moral
was actually relevant to:
2. Talking about lyrics being immoral/moral.
To be extra safe I cited an example (the teen nazis) that LaShawn herself had very recently defended. So as to stay not only relevant, but on topic.
“Maybe you know of women who like to refer to themselves as slaves or whores for their husbands/boyfriends/whatever”
I think you’ll find that lots of intimate couples have plenty of ‘play’ words in their sex lives. That’s fine by me. Also not my business unless it’s out on the public field of discourse. Jill Scotts lyric’s at first read (to me, and I asked my wife too she said the same) strike me as a playful sexual metaphor for the larger devotional message to her lover. It stikes me as an empowered, self assured and playful lyric. Absolutely not a degrading literal description of a whore.
You may say that I’m trying too hard to believe that black is white and that ‘whore’ can only be used in one hyper-literal sense.
I would say the same to you. You are trying too hard to say she meant it in a literal sense.
Women get called whores by utra-conservatives or religious fundies just for the crime of being seen with a man. Do you think they too are being literal? Should the woman be prosecuted for being a literal whore? Or ar the re-defining the word?
If your wife says one night that you are an ‘animal’ in bed, do you sue her for bestial defamation or should you be a scientific exhibit?
Does it LITERALLY mean animal, yes or no? Can you answer that? Just yes or no will do!
Regards,
John
Hello JohnD,
Boy are you riled up. I’m not trying too hard to say she meant it in a literal sense. The point is that the word demeans women, at least to some women, and she is criticizing other people for demeaning women while her own use of words do the same. I guess I don’t see Prussian Blue screaming about other people being racists. Not that I listen to most pop music anyways.
The issue at hand can be related to that “joke” you brought up about some men saying they want their women to be slaves and whores, but I bet most of the time they wouldn’t want them to hear about it, not directly at least. So in that you can say it’s derogatory. The point I’m simply trying to make is that “whore” is indeed not a nice word, and if Ms. Scott wants to use it and thinks it fine perhaps she should not be complaining about other people demeaning women because plenty of women can find it demeaning.
BTW, by your analogy earlier, does “whore is a bad word” = “sex is ending the world, nothing else matters!” Seems like that’s what you’re inferring that I’m saying.
I’m guessing that the religious fundies you’re talking about are Muslims, because no Christians I know actually go nuts over women being seen with men. And surely you don’t believe that when any of those fundies, whatever religion they’re of, meant whore in a flattering way?
And humans are animals but most women aren’t whores. And if you really want to be literal, well, I’m not a man and I don’t have a wife. Why the heck do you assume I’m a man? Does it matter in this debate? When someone compares anyone to an animal one way or the other I assume that they’re comparing it to some aspect of an animal. I don’t see any aspect of whores that are admirable, but of course I assume some men do, but animal can be used as an insult too. I just don’t see any guy telling his wife/girlfriend/whatever that she’s a whore as a compliment.
I think this argument about “whore” has gone on too long. If you think it’s okay for a woman to refer to herself as a whore and then complain about other people demeaning women, that’s your freedom. I just think it awfully hypocritical, context or not. I bet you can find plenty of people who find NOTHING demeaning about the way women are depicted in music videos; why do you think a lot of teenage girls dress the way they do?
JohnD: In all good faith, words do have specific meanings and are the backbone of honest dialog. To tinker endlessly with their context and colloquial usage is to undermine the integity of semantics and logic.
Two Englishmen of note come to mind in proving the point: Lewis Carroll and Eric Arthur Blair (better known as George Orwell). Both were excellent logicians and practiced wordsmiths. However, their skill at the craft of abusing semantics is a highly honed art that is rendered folly in the hands of an amateur. That is why they stand above the crowd of writers who have undertaken the challenge.
We would all be better served if we just say what we mean in clear terms. Of course, we can always engage in the wry twist of the double entendre. But when one finds he his repeatedly having to explain himself, it is usually not the fault of the “dunces” on the other end.
Think about it. I know you treasure having the last word, so I will not likely respond.
I hope Jill keeps speaking up loudly and making the music that she does. What is passed off as hip hop the last few years is simply crap to make a quick buck. My pet peeve is to hear this on the radio constantly. Now I simply turn the radio off. I seek neo soul and hip hop that has a positive vibe by talented artists I relate to.
Jason- you have to seek out diverse styles and artists, they are out there, not on the radio and usually unsigned and independent, thankfully.
Hi fuzz,
Guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. A few explanations and apologies though:
Firstly, I’m not riled up, just animated! I do find this discussion exceptionally challenging and fun.
Secondly, I’m sorry you thought I was inferring that you were a man. I truly wasn’t. It was just a casual, generalised example, again not at all meant to be taken literally.
I wasn’t inferring that you were a man or that you had a wife. Or that you were an animal.
Before I posted that, I thought about writing:
“If one’s wife says one night…”
But it just sounded clumsy. Bad decision on my part. Apologies. I hope it makes sense now.
Thirdly and lastly, I certainly WASN’T inferring that you were more upset at the use of the word whore, than the use of pop music to promote Nazism.
I just noted that LaShawn defended neo-Nazis on here, but the larger comparative upset on this board was over a sex-related word used in a lyric by a female artist. This echoed a cultural phenomenon I noticed whilst living in the US, and it is similar though not so pronounced, in the UK:
It seems that we are ok with graphic violence, shootings and death on daytime TV, but the showing of a human nipple in ANY circumstance (has to be female as men’s nipples are deemed less ungodly) is cause for a storm of controversy and condemnation. It does sadden me somewhat that we can sexualise something like a human nipple (an organ that provides nourishment for children)to such a degree that is censored, it is literally an abomination. While on the other hand, we (as a culture, I don’t literally mean ‘we’, as in ‘you and me’) fetishize violence as ’sexy’ and just everyday stuff.
That was my point there, and it wasn’t tailored towards you at all. I always stick to point and do not attack the poster. Once again, apologies if you thought I was singling you out. I wasn’t.
All the best,
John.
“I know you treasure having the last word, so I will not likely respond.”
Aw leave it out Heliotrope, please. Why make personal attacks? That is a low debating tactic.
I’m more than happy to give the ‘last word’. Whatever made you think otherwise? I thought this was an ongoing deabte. Is there a point where we have to concede? If there is, please inform mwe when it is and I will ‘agree to disagree’ no problem. But at least give me a clue before you put those claws out and try and discredit me?
Let’s at least stick to the argument and not make assumptive, baseless and false attacks on poster’s integrity/personality?
Fair enough?
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