Update II (8/11): Flashback Friday — Police department lowers safety standards for black officers. Celebrate diversity!
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Celebrate diversity!
New York City Fire Department (FDNY) has succumbed to the pressure. One of the finest fire departments in the country will lower its hiring standards to attract more black recruits.
This Newsday article begins with an effusive lead about the new “pro-diversity” campaign to attract “minorities,” but the important part is how the fire department intends to do that. As originally conceived, affirmative action would require FDNY to look farther and wider for qualified black candidates. Affirmative action as practiced today means lowering qualifications.
How low will they go? FDNY is dropping the college requirement altogether if applicants have held a full-time job for six months, but this New York Daily News story reveals more of the truth. The department is “considering a change in the way the test is scored.” That story also notes the “surge” in Latino fire fighters. I’d be interested to know how they scored on the employment test as a group.
(I’d guess that criminal records are disqualifying “minorities,” too. By the way, whenever you see that m-word, it means black.)
Although the article mentions only a change in the way the test is scored (residents are given extra points, for instance), test changes usually mean that reading comprehension and mathematical portions are either de-emphasized, removed or “dumbed down.” I’ll bet $1 that’s what the FDNY plans to do if it hasn’t already.
I happen to know a bit about this. Last year the Denver Fire Department intended to dumb down its test to hire more blacks.
Last year I spoke to Denver’s Chief Larry Trujillo, who said a story in the Rocky Mountain News (one I linked to) misquoted him. If I recall correctly, the story left the impression that he favored a watered down test. He was adamantly opposed to this, expressing pride that he, a “minority,” had gone through the same process as other recruits. But he believed “something” needed to be done to bring in more blacks.
Intending to do a story about this, I called CWH Management Solutions, the consulting company hired to create the department’s newer and easier-for-blacks test. There I was, a little ole freelance writer and blogger, talking to three people on a conference call. I kept trying to get to the heart of thing: What sort of test ensures that a greater percentage of blacks will pass it?
Like a good interviewer, I’d done preliminary research before calling. I knew that as a group, blacks tended to score lower than whites on standardized tests. I wanted to know why. I found out part of the answer.
The more “g-loaded” a test was, the worse blacks performed on it. General intelligence is represented as g. Most standardized tests are basically IQ tests. Intelligence is what we use to reason abstractly and solve problems. While there are different sets of skills that can be measured, what is generally being tested is our overall level of intelligence, hence, general intelligence. The more of this ability the test measures, the more g-loaded the test.
Whenever you read or hear about some institution or other changing tests like the SAT or civil service exams (No one advocates changing medical board or pilot exams. I wonder why…) so that more people of races other than white can pass it, it means the test’s g-load will be decreased.
Back to CWH. I knew the consulting firm designed tests that reduced the g-load, but I wanted at least one of the three people on the telephone to say it. No matter how many ways I asked the question, I never got a straight answer. I asked if they planned to make the test easier. No. I asked if I could see a sample of the test. No. I asked exactly how they intended to ensure that blacks would do better on their test than on the current one. Just as the web site reads, the “leader” of the three said the new test would measure a “broader range of job related abilities than traditional written tests” in order to identify “well-rounded, motivated, and qualified” applicants.
In other words, the goal was to play down what made blacks look bad — abstract reasoning ability — and play up “interpersonal” skills.
Why is cognitive ability important? In general, cognitive ability predicts life outcomes, and cognitive tests are the best predictors of job performance. The higher the ability, the better recruits are able to learn and develop the skills necessary to be good firemen or policeman, for example. Study after study has shown this to be true.
(When people speak of different “intelligences,” like the faddish emotional and multiple “intelligences,” they don’t know what they’re talking about. Intelligence is the ability to think abstractly and solve problems. Period. People who use those terms are not referring to these abilities. )
Bottom-line: To eliminate the “disparate impact” g-loaded tests have on blacks, test-makers eliminate the g-load.
I googled Chief Trujillo to find out whether the Denver Fire Department ever implemented the dumbed down test, and I pulled up this: “Push to hire more in fire department goes nowhere.”
Oh well.
Why do blacks generally have lower cognitive ability than whites? Is it in the genes, the environment, or both? Read, theorize, discuss — when you find the answer, let us know. In the meantime, we’ll keep pretending it has to do with slavery and segregation.
Addendum: Somewhere along the way, proportionality became the measure of non-discrimination. Since blacks are 13 percent of the population, they should represent at least 13 percent of fire department employees, for example. Anyone of average intelligence knows how unsustainable and illogical that is.
If blacks are overrepresented in certain government agencies, that’s OK.
Update (12:22 p.m.): Whenever you think something goes without saying, it’s best to say it anyway.
When I asked why blacks generally have lower cognitive ability than whites, I’m basing the question on the body of research I’ve read about IQ and employment tests. Commenter Frank offers a point of clarification. IQ tests certainly measure something, and cognitive ability correlates with life outcomes and predicts job performance. If you disagree, make the argument and support it with sources, as I’ve done here and here.
If you don’t think IQ tests properly or adequately measure cognitive ability, or that cognitive ability isn’t all that important, make the argument and support it.
Emotional I-refuse-to-believe-blacks-are-dumb type of responses are part of the problem with this dumbed down country. Think and argue.
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“Why do blacks generally have lower cognitive ability than whites?”
Let’s be safe and ask the ‘white’ people
This is a disgrace to professional psychologists and educators – to deliberately eliminate test elements that predict job performance.
This is equivalent to not giving a test at all.
This lowering of standards is, most of all, a slap in the face of all those brave NYC firefighters who risked their lives, and those that died, on Sept 11 2001.
>>“Why do blacks generally have lower cognitive ability than whites?â€
Do they really have a lower ability, or is it just that their ability wasn’t honed or nurtured?
Yeah, this whole “reducing of standards” thing is a disgrace. Why don’t we focus on bringing everyone UP to high standards instead of dragging everyone down?
Betsy’s Page has a relevant post today:
http://betsyspage.blogspot.com/2006/08/my-monthly-column-in-examiner.html
It’s not just g-loads that are discriminatory, it’s also the ability to swim: City seeking black police drops swimmer rule!
Yep, I read a similar story last year.
Difficult to say. I was just reading where black law students are much less likely to pass the Bar than whites. I wonder how such things were back in the 40s. Folks couldn’t believe when the Tuskegee airmen scored so well on their exams and Thomas Sowell cited pre-civil rights examples of black schools scoring equally or better than their white counterparts. So I don’t think there is a clear answer. Maybe scores of black conservative/Republicans should be compared to scores of black liberals/Democrats to see the effect of ideology.
I personally don’t view multiple intelligences and emotional intelligence as fads. It has been shown that left brain thinking accounts for about 20% of what generally makes a person successful while the rest comes from the right brain. IQ exams entirely test left brain thinking. Intuition, common sense, seeing the big picture, leadership ability, etc. are right brain functions. Military and political leaders are commonly right brain thinkers and would score lower on IQ exams than scientists and technicians. The problem is that right brain function is difficult to test. Several of the worlds richest men either failed out of school or don’t have higher degrees.
Also, non-religious people have higher IQs than religious people. Would many Christians concede that atheists are smarter than them? The fact is that religious people tend to be more right brain oriented while non-religious people tend to be more left brain oriented. IQ tests are geared toward left brain functioning.
Nope, the problem is that whites score higher than blacks on average. Nobody cares about left brain, right brain, the dubious comment about religious folks, or that scientists have higher IQs than non-scientist. The main thrust of the argument will always center around racial differences, not religious or vocational. Nobody cares about the rest, nor does it matter much as far as public policy is concerned.
Common sense and leadership ability are important traits, but you seem to imply that people who score low on IQ tests have just as much or more common sense and leadership ability than people with score high on IQ tests. Links to such studies would be helpful.
I said emotional and multiple “intelligences” were faddish in the sense that they are recent politically correct ideas used to downplay the importance of intelligence, without the quotations. Whatever these things are, they are not “intelligence” as the word is defined, but using the word makes people feel as if they’re discussing something as important as abstract reasoning.
By the way, I’ve addressed some of your points before, so I’d recommend you read at least the first two links under “Related posts” about intelligence, where I make several arguments and link to several studies. No point reinventing the microchip.
“Do they really have a lower ability”
That depends if you believe Marva Collins (an educator) or eugenecists.
My thinking demands a pretty firm definition of ‘they’ before I start believing how genetically inferior ‘they’ are.
For instance, I get called ‘white’. So presumedly if you can call black people ‘they’ you can also call white people ‘they’?
Now why do I feel grossly uncomfortable when taxonomised in such a fashion? I am being told I am one of ‘them’?
That means that I probably have a higher IQ than my Ghanaian sister-in-law? Right?
So why is she the one with the degree?
And why aren’t all Irish people dumb?
On IQ tests Northern Irish Catholics scored 15 points lower than Northern Irish Protestants.
Same ethnicity – different results.
I know Irish people with degrees, and some who are homeless and emotionally inept. I know they aren’t kept off’ve buses along with the ‘blacks’ in this day and age, but my grandfather remembers the days when Irish were considered ‘black’, not ‘white’. This was because ‘black’ was considered inferior in England, and *because* England was oppressing the Irish, the enemy was identified as ‘non-white’.
So who are the real ‘blacks’? And if one says that ‘they’ are all people of African descent – then which part of Africa? Tuareg? Egyptians? Kenyans? Or are American ‘blacks’ a different race of people now?
Most geneticists agree that there is far more genetic variation within groups than between groups. Anyone telling us otherwise *probably* has political motives. Race is not a biologically meaningful way to categorize people, whether it’s the Far Right or the Far left doing it, the differences between skin colour is a smooth transition. Not so with culture though.
Cultural/environmental and inter-group/family genetics account for most of an individuals character and ‘intelligence’.
One cannot just say ‘they’ when talking about billions of people AND be taken seriously (by any reasonable person)
Once again, we hear people trying to tell us that one racial group is inferior to another. Not only that, but supporters of such statements claim that such statements aren’t ‘racist’.
And the fire department? Idiots. The test for suitability for each individual job should be the same for everyone applying, regardless of race or sex. Racist morons.
As for the ’soft racism of low expectations’?
Well, if LaShawn is correct when she says ‘blacks generally have lower cognitive ability than whites’ then Hard Conservative Racial Science is the new ’soft racism of low expectations’?
Regards,
John
Actually, lowering standards for blacks is “soft racism of low expectations,” dear. Talking about test results and coming to conclusions based on the available data is not racist. Playing with language and redefining words won’t solve the problem. And I’ll give you the same tip I gave Shade: read the two intelligence posts I linked to, as well as some of the studies cited in those posts. – Admin
La Shawn: You may have been thinking about the North Miami PD which dropped their swimming requirement over two years ago because of a dearth of black [PD] applicants.
A great deal has been written about malnutrition and brain development. I particularly recommend The Malnourished Mind by Elie Shneour (1974.)
When a pregnancy is neglected through poor nutrition and an infant and toddler is fed junk, the lack of brain development is severe, measurable and irreversible. Irreversible. No pill to fix it, irreversible.
Anyone who has ever spent time in a school lunchroom can readily differentiate between the kids who have been made to eat their veggies and the kids who cram portion after portion of pure junk down their gullets. You have to believe that they do the same at home and that is their “diet” has been long established.
The government has had programs to try to deal with this. In fact, the free lunch program in the school says that a kid can come back for more and he must be given a second complete meal. So he does. He eats the pizza or the mac and cheese or the tacos and cheese and throws the rest away. Then he goes back the second or third time and grazes on his favorite and dumps the rest. Meanwhile, the waist expands, the eyes glaze over and mind numbs.
I used to hand out food at the government food bank in the days before food stamps. They came for the government cheese and we would have to clean up all the other commodities that were in the boxes from the street after they dumped it out to lighten the load.
The worst of the worst dull minded kids come out of houses where they eat irregularly and crazy stuff like boxed starch (Argo is the favorite) or even a clay mud they get from Mississippi.
The point is that if a significant number of people who have literally dumbed themselves down through diet deficiencies stay in close proximity, obviously the gene pool is going to show drastic results. If twenty something numb minded males are impregnating the thirteen year olds who are the child of a late twenty something who is still on the prowl…………..
LaShawn has scratched a scab here that dare not be mentioned in any integrated civic forum I have ever attended.
However, the hillbillies have been medically researched to death. There is no difference between the repeating mental and physical pathologies we have studied back in the hollows and what we see coming out of low income housing projects. But when the individual is black, you shut up, because the bucket of tar and the brush of racism in just around the corner.
This helps explain why special ed is overwhelmingly black. It isn’t the skin that causes the problem. It is what people do to what is under the skin that is the culprit. Unfortunately, if a numb minded person has race on his mind, there is no way to get around his point of view. It is all so sad.
“I was just reading where black law students are much less likely to pass the Bar than whites. I wonder how such things were back in the 40s. Folks couldn’t believe when the Tuskegee airmen scored so well on their exams and Thomas Sowell cited pre-civil rights examples of black schools scoring equally or better than ”
You may have heard it before, but as the number of college students has enlarged to pick up more and more (average) people, the average test scores of both black and white students on SATs and other tests has declined. It used to be only the top 5% went to college – now it’s like the top 50% at least try some part-time college. Since blacks were more limited in the past, the enrollment enlargement would affect them most.
Determining what the average intelligence is, is much more difficult and politically incorrect, as the authors of the Bell Curve found out.
Still, it would seem to me that meeting the standards of being a fire fighter or police officer, or corrections officer if not smart enough for the police should be within range of most people.
Miami with all the water, it’s of course reasonable to require police officers to know how to swim. Since more white people know how to swim than blacks (and swimming can’t be genetic), it might be appropriate to give police candidates 3 months to learn how to swim – but not refuse to consider their application if they can’t swim.
Miami with all the water, it’s of course reasonable to require police officers to know how to swim.
You’d think so, but skin color diversity trumps common sense safety standards.
“We shall overcome some dayyyyyyyyyyy…”
LaShawn, why doesn’t the department just “say” they hired more minorities. If anybody wants proof, they can just fax them fauxtographs of fireman who’ve been airbrushed to look black and Hispanic like they did with the 9/11 statue.
Good one.
– Admin
Well I must respectfully disagree with both the fire dept and Lashawn.
Saying that ‘blacks’ are dumber than the rest of humans is racist in my book. Saying that we have to lower standards for blacks because they are dumber is racist in my book too.
Regards,
John.
I certainly appreciate the respect. That, and not agreement, is what I require at LBC. – Admin
You forgot the sexist/feminism thing.
They want the Fire Department to be 50% female.
Even the most ardent feminist cannot be crazy enough to believe that women are equipped to be firefighters.
Women don’t have the upper-body strength that’s needed to handle the rigors of major disasters.
You didn’t see women going up the stairs of the World Trade Center to rescue victims, thankfully.
I wouldn’t think women wanted to enter the World Trade Center, much less a burning building.
This is about safety.
If Police and Fire are now ordered to make women 50% of the force, we are all in danger.
It’s not about sexism.
It’s about physiology/anatomy.
I’m not altogether convinced that blacks have less cognitive ability than whites.
Are there intelliget whites? Yes. Are there truly stupid whites. Yes. Are there intelligent blacks? Yes. Are there truly stupid blacks? Yes.
The same can be said of any ethnic group. There are only intelligent and stupid people everywhere.
What is the real difference between an intelligent white and an intelligent black? Not much.
What is the real difference between an intelligent black and a stupid white? A whole hell of a lot.
This distinction cuts across all ethnic boundaries. The difference between intelligent people is neglible. The difference between intelligent and stupid people is insurmountable.
I could care less about “minority rights.” I want intelligent people manning important positions, regardless of race. I certainly don’t want stupid people manning important positions, regardless of race.
Of course there are blacks who score higher on such tests than whites, but we’re talking about generalities. The average white scores higher than the average black.
Or, how about this LaShawn. Have people put out their own fires. That way, the only way that a certain race wouldn’t be represented is if they don’t have any fires. Feel left out!? Start a fire.
#16
I agree that strenuous jobs are about physiology.
Though a slight, weak, woman is to my mind as incapable as a slight weak man. I argue that physical tests for physical jobs protecting public safety should be universal regardless of the sex of the applicant. Imagine a 300lb fireman running for your life
I would have no problem with a capable, professional woman lifting my unconscious body down a ladder.
Going back to the Miami PD swimming comment – my wife (from Florida) has family who are lifeguards. One of them is a women. She is a lifeguard because she is capable, *not* because she is a woman. The same goes for the men.
If anyone is capable, they should have a chance at the job. ‘Capable’ is the magic word. Sexism and racism cloud that basic issue in most walks of life.
Regards,
John.
John:
Perhaps “blacks’ are dumber than the rest of humans” is bad english and not “gramatically correct”, the statement “Blacks score lower as a group” on some tests may be a fact, but not racist.
But saying people or a race are “inferior” if they don’t score well IS racist.
And treating people differently – different school curriculum, for example – based on IQ tests IS “discrimination”, but not necessarily “racist.”
“Discrimination” is not equivalent to racism.
You think _we_ have problems – check this out…
http://tinyurl.com/lgyf8
Heliotrope, you’re a rare bird who understands the link between diet and brain function. It’s disgusting the sort of junk food that’s on the WIC program and other low-income assistance. Sugary cereal, processed boxed whatever, pasteurized processed cheese food. Yuck. Of course, good stuff like meat and veggies is “expensive” and labor intensive so they get bypassed for convenience items.
What happens in school cafeterias also saddens me. Most of the food gets thrown away. I pack my kids’ lunches because I know what and how much they eat. My older one will sometimes buy a lunch when there’s a favorite item on the menu that day, but it all gets eaten or the wrath of mom will be known. That’s right: we clean our plates at this house none of this nambypamby nibbling & grazing.
“They” is a pronoun. It was used to refer to the noun in the sentence preceding the pronoun. In the case of #3, I kinda messed up because technically, “they” would refer to whites because it’s the closest in proximity, but I really meant for the “they” I used to refer to the blacks from the preceding quote. For the record, I disagree with the implication of the question I quoted which is why I posted #3. I don’t think cognitive ability is based solely on genetic predisposition.
I find fault with educators who get paid whether the kids learn or not. How about this: Pay educators based on a scale of how well the kids learn. If their 2006 class has a 20% failure rate, Boom! Their 2007 salary is cut by 20%. That puts the incentive to teach and make sure the kids learn back on the teacher. That’s their job-they just need motivation to do it better. Peer pressure among educators would help. If 4th grade teacher Ginny’s pay is affected because the students 3rd grade teacher Barbara taught the year before didn’t learn, Ginny is going to have a talk with Babara. To make the system work, all teachers would push each other to do a better job.
#23 FL Mom: You are so right about the WIC list which was actually concocted to include what people would eat rather than should eat. I sat on a commission that took a drubbing because we included a lot of dried beans. Dried beans are little miracle pellets and a great diet staple.
A government study notes that a serving (1/3 cup of cooked beans) contains around 80 calories, no cholesterol, lots of complex carbohydrates, and little fat. In addition, beans are a good source of B vitamins, potassium, and fiber, which promotes digestive health and relieves constipation. Eating beans may help prevent colon cancer, and reduce blood cholesterol (a leading cause of heart disease).
It turned out that there is a “stigma” among some folks about eating dried beans, so they were “politically corrected” to the bottom of the list rather than remaining at the top where they belong. They have also fallen by the wayside on school lunch menus.
I realize your clarification of the “they” reference was not associated with any comment I made.
Keep abusing your children with proper nutrition.
#21
Frank, please could you tell me how millions upon millions of individuals can be ‘grouped’ and categorized as ‘less intelligent’ let alone as just plain ‘black’ or ‘they’.
I care not for neither political or much for ‘grammatical correctness’ , coz in issues of extreme racial discrimination such as ‘blacks are less intelligent than whites’ we need not pussyfoot around words.
What I do care for, is a more accurate description of who ‘they’ are when referring to these lower-IQ’d individuals that have been tested. And I mean a far less lazy denomination than ‘black’ or ‘they’.
You said: “Discrimination†is not equivalent to racism.
It may not be strictly equivalent, but it is certainly a finger of the same hand. It’s going to be far more difficult to discourage negative discrimination based upon race (racism) if it become widely accepted (again) that ‘blacks’ are generally less intelligent than the rest of humanity
Racial discrimination based upon politics and junk eugenics/science has been practiced for centuries, you may understand my questioning it’s authority, it’s validity, and it’s specifics.
Regards,
John
“Miami with all the water, it’s of course reasonable to require police officers to know how to swim.
You’d think so, but skin color diversity trumps common sense safety standards.”
One would hope that any police officer in a water resort area would take it on his own to learn how to swim even if not required to.
About a month ago, there was a story about police officer in Maryland having to rescue the suspect he was chasing after the idiot ran into a drainage pond at night – in addition to thousands of other water related cases.
Apparently this topic will ALWAYS be difficult for most folks to discuss…
Statistically, Asians and Jews score higher on IQ tests than whites (this includes Asians with only moderate English skills). This is a well documented fact. It is NOT “anti-white racism” to point out this fact, nor is it the result of “cultural bias”.
By the same token, it is well documented that whites score higher than blacks on IQ tests.
On the other hand, blacks run faster and jump higher than whites. (I highly recommend TABOO by Jon Entine.)
Comparing different races of people is like comparing different breeds of dogs or cats or birds. There are measurable physical and mental differences, but all still belong to the same species.
It is nothing short of preposterous to believe that tens of thousands of years of adaptation to completely different environments would produce races that are genetically identical. Pure silliness.
John,
As a population…Asians score higher than whites, who score higher than blacks. Of course, on an individual basis, there are blacks who score very high, and Asians who score very low.
When selecting wide receivers and running backs, Pro football teams discriminate against slower runners in favor of faster runners. This is NOT racism, although it virtually excludes whites and Asians.
As previously noted, discrimination is NOT equivalent to racism.
Dear La Shawn,
There is a very interesting discussion about this very subject over at jerrypournelle.com by some very informed people. Please note, it is not politically correct discussion, so please do not be offended. (not rascist, just … here is the data, don’t shoot the messenger type discussion).
It appears to be true that blacks as a group perform less well on strongly g-oriented tests than whites (by about 1 standard deviation).
But an interesting point was brought up. A white who scores at the 80th percentile on the tests is barely able to funtion in society, while a black who scores at the 80th percentile functions quite well thank you.
This indicates to me that there is something askew about the test as it relates to black people. While I think I am smart enough to follow the answer if anyone has one, it is not my area and I would have no idea how to go about testing the test to determine what exactly is wrong.
Of course, the same tests show asians do .5 standard deviations better than whites, so the rascists out there better think twice about the conclusions they draw……
EVOLUTION: Easily explains the difference to those believing this theory. Blacks are closer to the monkeys. Monkeys are stupid. And standing upright puts your brain closer to the Sun and farther from gravity so your brain grows more.
PHYSICS: Melanin absorbs light and prevents blacks from seeing the questions as well as the whites. Their light skin does not absorb as many photons so they can see the questions better.
So monkey logic combined with subatomic physics clearly solves this riddle. There are still some remaining questions regarding the quantum mechanical influence of gravity.
I am gonna go way out on a limb here and say that maybe the reason a lot of Black Americans are so screwed up is that blacks have the blood of the most venal, sadistic brutal, lazy white people. Its possible that the varying degrees of this blood is the reason for a lot of the problems Blacks are suffering from. After all the White slave owners avoided work by having slaves. I believe in genetics. Look at Oprah that show on genetics proved that she had almost no white blood and she is very successful.
All this give and take on IQ is less than important. The whole IQ discussion along with right brains and left brains might be important to someone trying to build a mind sharpening device that hums in your ear while you sleep.
But in the real world, we are all given challenges and the tools developed over the ages to help take on the challenges. The individual efforts we make to prepare ourselves have an enormous impact on who we will be and what we will accomplish.
Our families, neighbors and neighborhoods also have an enormous impact on us. We don’t get to choose who we are born to or how they will raise us, but each of us has the power to sit up straight, eat our veggies, be polite and try our best. That is what the greeter at Wal-Mart does.
I will repeat it again. It is not the color of the skin that makes the statistics what they are. It is due to what goes on under that skin. (Sorry, LaShawn, I know I am not allowed to repeat myself.)
When selecting wide receivers and running backs, Pro football teams discriminate against slower runners in favor of faster runners. This is NOT racism, although it virtually excludes whites and Asians.
Actually, black football players are often more quickly cut from teams for lack of speed than white players are because white players are not expected to have great speed. Thus, criteria such as work ethic, attitude, heart, intelligence, skill, etc. are moreso looked at with white players wereas raw physical capabilities are more of a must for black players.
Chances are that Rudy Ruettiger would have never made Notre Dames team if he was black.
“Pro football teams discriminate against slower runners in favor of faster runners. This is NOT racism, although it virtually excludes whites and Asians.”
At the elite, top .001%, of any activity, genetics may be more important than effort. If not born with the right genes, don’t expect any world records. Who was that star college football player who just ruined his life, most likely born with the right genetics for football?
But at the average level, who can play better football or tennis, Shade or I, most likely depends on effort and training not genetics. And most of us are fairly average in most athletic or work activities and genetics is less important.
One should not use superstars as example about general populations.
If you would like to see a comprehensive discussion and analysis of intelligence measurements, read the second half of Steven Jay Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man”. He makes a comprehensive history of the origin and use of intelligence testing in the 20th century. Surprisingly, Binet’s scale that became our IQ was to be used to sort out children who appeared to have mental development problems. It was later expanded to a general measurement of “Intelligence”. Among the many discussions lies Gould’s central points; that humans have a need to believe that things are well ordered, that certain qualities can be represented simply by some results that can be shown to map to innate quality in nature and most pernicious is that such a straightforward scale will clearly explain why something things are the way they are and justify a prejudice already predating the results.
The real sad thing is that g measurements probably do not measure that elusive thing called intelligence but the efforts you talk about here are based on persons trying to tweak the measurement to represent something that it can never do. You just end up enshrining someone else’s prejudice in a guise that no one can be held accountable for.
“But an interesting point was brought up. A white who scores at the 80th percentile on the tests is barely able to funtion in society, while a black who scores at the 80th percentile functions quite well thank you. ”
This might also imply that too many black think it’s acting white to study in school and do badly on tests – as bad as a dumb white.
Could imply a cultural bias in test OR a cultural bias in studying for tests OR both. (or genetic inferiority which I have not seen convincing evidence of)
Maybe it’s a combination of culture and biology. The nutrition factor makes a lot of sense to this non-scientific person – “you are what you eat”.
The cultural aspect I refer to is the rejection of white European culture by many black Americans: the preference for rap music over Mozart, silly slapstick movies (Eddie Murphy) over Shakespeare’s plays, Ebonics over English, graffiti over da Vinci… And it’s not only blacks who have dumbed down culture – I see whites who do it too. And it’s considered “cool” to dislike poetry and opera.
A constant diet of lowbrow entertainment cannot improve or exercise the mind.
#37 David Pendracki recommends a reading of Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man.”
In taking on this assignment, it is first fair to note that Gould was engaged in pushing his theory of evolution theory in the original sense in which Darwin postulated it. Gould was not a neo-Darwinist, he was a supra-Darwinist.
His work was highly controversial and particularly among his fellow evolutionists.
“The Mismeasure of Man” was likely his most controversial book. Among the serious charges leveled at Gould was that he intentionally misrepresented the research and findings of fellow researchers with whom he disagreed.
On a different note: when students are ability leveled in many schools, it is done on the basis of standardized test results, IQ and previous record. Assigning Special Ed status has IQ thresholds in many classifications.
As a general rule, an IQ under 70 is a serious marker of deficiency. An IQ of 75-100 is within the range of average skills. Students above 100 should be engaged in work of an extra challenging content. Because some schools have a general population that have higher average IQ numbers, they may group more tightly or with higher entry level IQ numbers. My experience is that IQ is never the determining factor, but it has been a fairly reliable indicator for many, many years.
When the military gives its ASVAB tests, it is measuring vocational aptitude. However, when the results of the tests are compared to the IQ number of the test taker, those who score under 80% on the ASVAB almost always show up on the deficient end of the IQ scale.
Great posts Tim and David Pendracki
Also, the notion of IQ being the major predictor of future success was debunked by Berkeley sociologists led by Claude Fischer for the book Inequality by Design. They concluded that “If we could magically give everyone identical IQs, we would still see 90 to 95 percent of the inequality we see today.â€
Shade, Shade, Shade. If you read the archived posts I linked to on intelligence, you’d know that I and other researchers don’t take a fatalistic approach to this topic. When we’re talking about cognitive ability, we’re speaking, always, in generalities. Testing low on IQ tests doesn’t doom a person to a life of failure, low income, ill health, etc., but the tests do measure something. Cognitive tests (i.e., standardized tests) are strongly predictive of job performances, and they are a legitimate way for organizations to measure abilities in employees. If people have “issues” with the tests, then by all means get rid of all tests that measure cognitive ability, including tests for medical doctors and airplane pilots.
And that Fischer citation doesn’t refute anything I’ve discussed in this post. You probably should have quoted a different line from the book to support your point. For instance, instead of a “what-if” or hypothetical assertion, you should cite some of the actual work he’s done to refute what other IQ researchers have found. And if you’re trying to say that blacks’ performances on such tests have to do with “inequality” as defined by our liberal and patronizing society, I’d LOVE to read how you came to that conclusion and studies that aided you in forming it.
#28: truthhurts said:
“It is nothing short of preposterous to believe that tens of thousands of years of adaptation to completely different environments would produce races that are genetically identical. Pure silliness.”
Yes I totally agree. I think you unwittingly reinforced the point I was trying to make.
To suggest that millions of people living across widely varying landscapes and cultures are genetically identical is just plain ridiculous.
That is *exactly* what we do when we proclaim that ‘Asian’ people (60 percent of the world’s population)are(insert generalization).
And is ‘black’ an American thing? or is it an African thing? And if so, which part of Africa? When we have statistics telling us that Protestants and Catholics of the same ethnicity in the same region are turning in predictably different IQ scores as groups, it kind of blows my mind that one would consider ‘Asia’ to be ‘one’ gene/behaviour/culture in any study.
Additionally, I would ask you to point me to the evolutionary proof that ‘white’ genes have changed from hunter-gatherers to mathematicians and scholars in less than 4000 years.
Compare if you will to the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians (what races are they? Are they ‘black’?) who were once scholars and mathematicians while the Nordic whites were raping and looting in bearskins. These ‘Pioneer Fund’ studies claim that harsh environments made the Northern races ’smarter’ than people more temperate zones. So the same would be true for desert people?
But the Africans in Egypt were already smart over 5000 years ago. Are we really to believe that white people got ‘genetically smart’ in just a few thousand years? Darwinism on fast forward? I see evidence that culture and education, or lack of, can decimate a culture in just a few years. No genes needed.
And the ‘Asian’ thing? Are these eugenecists really claiming that Everyone from India all across to Australia are genetically identical ‘populations’?
Why would an ‘average’ Huanglongsi in rural China have a higher IQ than a Scandinavian farmer? Would they even?
Or aren’t we hearing the whole truth again?
The jury is out for a beer…
I could respond more thoroughly if I could pinpoint these ‘average’ Asian or Black populations that you speak of. References please?
Regards,
John.
PS #32. If it is true that all that evil white blood exists, then Australia today must be a pure cesspit of human failure owing to it’s historical immigrant stock of criminals and cut-throats.
And all those ’screwed up blacks’ in America that you speak of – if they are the product of nasty white slave-owner’s blood then why aren’t they running succesful businesses using cheap labour, like the modern day counterparts?…
Damn lies and statistics, mutter, grumble…
I didn’t say that the citation refuted anything. I said that the book does. The citation is a statement of conclusion.
And if you’re trying to say that blacks’ performances on such tests have to do with “inequality†as defined by our liberal and patronizing society, I’d LOVE to read how you came to that conclusion and studies that aided you in forming it.
Can you cite anywhere where I have said anything of the sort? Clearly, “inequality”, as mentioned by Fischer refers to inequality of results.
I’m just saying the quote/conclusion is sort of weak.
And since you posted the quotation, I made a reaonable assumption that you supported the substance of it. Citing sources implies that you’re using that source to support your point, unless otherwise stated. I haven’t read the book; I’m guessing he’s probably using the word “inequality” as defined by liberals. It follows that if you support the conclusion, you also agree with Fischer’s definition of “inequality.”
If I’m wrong and you posted the quote for other reasons than you agree with it, used it to support your position, and refute mine, I apologize for the misunderstanding. And it certainly is not “clear” what the man means to someone who hasn’t read the book, especially with that small, context-less quotation you cited.
As a point of curiosity, is the pseudoscience of “eugenics” alive and practiced in any developed society in 2006?
—–One should not use superstars as example about general populations.—–
I didn’t.
I used pro sports as a means of illustrating that discrimination does not equate to racism.
I thought it was clear.
—–Actually, black football players are often more quickly cut from teams for lack of speed than white players are because white players are not expected to have great speed.—–
That’s because whites are genetically slower runners than blacks.
—–That is *exactly* what we do when we proclaim that ‘Asian’ people (60 percent of the world’s population)are(insert generalization).—–
Speak for yourself.
That is not what I’m doing.
When I refer to Asians as a population (actually East Asians) having higher IQ’s than whites, I’m referring to the fact that the mean IQ of a very large sampling of East Asians was measurably higher than the mean IQ of a very large sampling of whites.
I am NOT suggesting that ALL individual Asians or ALL individual whites can be categorized or generalized.
Obviously, when discussing large populations, there is a wide range of results, including abnormally high and low scores.
Why aren’t these applicants insulted? These companies are telling them in a nice way that they are too dim witted to pass the most basic tests that any White man can normally pass. If company A came out and said what affirmative action hiring really is: “We believe Blacks are too stupid to pass our tests and compete against Whites.” Jackson and company would be outside of the corporate headquarters making a new rhyme, calling for a boycott and secretly asking for a monetary contribution (to keep hope alive, of course).
But, I must disagree with the consensus that Blacks are not smarter than Whites. I believe that Blacks score lower on tests because of incorrect family structures and priorities.
No matter what the civil rights brigade says most Blacks do not believe in education. They are to me neutral on the subject. Great if you can succeed, but if not oh well, I guess it just wasn’t meant to be.
I have first hand experience as a librarian. I deal with people who rarely charge out books. They come in for computer use, videos, trashy street fiction and grant writing books. Not the grant books that are legit, the clown with the question mark suit is a favorite and that’s the full extent. Until Black History Month we don’t circulate non-fiction very often.
Obviously family structure with a strong man as head of the household will certainly ebb the thoughts of under performing in school.
Priorities after one has become an adult is the reason for low test scores. Do I want to study or hang at the club? Which then leads to Why study when they’ll lower the scores and I’ll be accepted regardless? Or worse still They owe me.
#20: You’re not going to like this, but I actually don’t think women belong on the Firefighters, or police force, whether they are capable or not.
I don’t believe most women have the temperament for that type of work, but even if they did….part of it is being a team player, and team morale and in terms of what makes a team, and who works the best together….the idea situation is to have all men, whether it’s the military, police, or fire.
The Lydie England factor, and the way women perform in para-military operations.
But not just that–the response of the public….
…that one female deputy who couldn’t/didn’t restrain that courtroom convict etc…
Even if a woman can pass all the physical tests…she lacks the perceived authority amongst those she serves/deals with.
This isn’t saying much, but I’m personally far more comfortable with an all-black police and/or fire patrol—no matter how incompetent, than I am with seeing a single woman doing police or fire.
Even a single woman in police and/or fire can throw off the whole team.
Glam, you might remember a post from back in the day about a bunch of women firefighters in Fairfax, VA, whining about harassment:
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2005/07/06/whiny
And speak of the devil: I saw this in today’s Washington Post:
There’s new evidence that the disparities in the IQs of blacks and whites may have narrowed by about a third in the past three decades.
“The constancy of the black/white IQ gap is a myth,” William T. Dickens of the Brookings Institution and James R. Flynn of the University of Otago in New Zealand write in a Brookings working paper to be published in Psychological Science. “Blacks have gained 5 or 6 IQ points on whites over the last 30 years,” they write, suggesting that the differences in black and white IQ scores stem from environment and not something hard-wired into the races.
La Shawn, this is the first time I’ve totally disagreed with you thought process. Quick bio on me. I’m a young black conservative that worked hard enough and had enough intelligence to score well on my SAT and get into a top 30 nationally ranked private institution. I’d have to say that, your comments and observations on intelligence don’t’ take into account a large portion of history. I think for starters familiarizing yourself with the testing history of many of the countries major cities fire and police departments would be a logical start. I went to school in Boston and fail to believe, that Irish immigrants who could not speak english and have tended to test lower than most if not all other European races should have been the majority in the police department here, which i might add they still remain. I fail to believe they would have passed any or all of the test, which are required now, but i digress, that is neither here nor there. My point is that, standards were obviously lowered a long time ago, but it is disgusting, that this day in age standards are still being lowered to “allow blacks” in. Considering i grew up in a predominately white upper middle class neighborhood in northern Virginia I can assure you not all whites are at the top of the intelligence chain. In fact I’d argue, that family structure and expectation weigh heavily on intelligence. I for one come from an educated black family where I’m the fourth generation in my family to attend college. Police officers and fire man without sounding snobbish are blue collar workers who don’t at most do not come from well educated backgrounds. This is true for both white and black fireman or cops, so overall i doubt the intelligence difference are that profound. For god sake their fireman if you can learn to operate a ladder and run into a building to save someone, that should be enough. I read past history where that’s basically all that they tested you on. I guess I don’t have a solid argument to make about why blacks tend to test lower overall than whites, but as expressed in a number of Thomas Sowell’s books black northerners tended to test higher than white southerns. This really begs the question of whether one race is naturally smarter than another or does the level of intelligence lie somewhere between cultural values and mores? Considering I grew up in the latter and in most circumstance I’m a lot smarter than most of my white counterparts I’d like to believe, that has more to do with it than anything else. However, in closing I definitely do not agree with lowering standards to let anyone in, but I’m in full agreement with raising standards and making sure everyone is able and capable of meeting them.
Oh, the frustrations of running a public blog. If you could show me where I wrote that all white people on the planet always score higher than all the black people on the planet, and that no black person has ever outscored a white person, then you’d have a point. – Admin
DS just sighs…
Research showing that IQ, including G, isn’t stable but is rising…
Average IQ of Blacks in Britian are higher than whites in Britian…
Quesions concerning the accuracy of G and what it does and does not measure…
G is inherant, yet IQ baseline has been changed over the years…
“There’s new evidence that the disparities in the IQs of blacks and whites may have narrowed by about a third in the past three decades. ”
I would think that if the black community was not hit with all the problems it has in the past three decades, such as unwed, teenage births, welfare for life, crime,…, the gap on IQ and other tests would have been narrowed by two-thirds, not one third.
Expecting equalization in 1.5 generations may have been too optimistic, but some people did have a dream – and I don’t think the dream was to drop out of the white man’s schools since one can learn as much on the street, or in a whorehouse (the best selling autobiography of one black power leader claims his insight from growing up in a whorehouse).
#45. “As a point of curiosity, is the pseudoscience of “eugenics†alive and practiced in any developed society in 2006?”
China runs an active eugenics program. Couples are tested for ‘fitness’ and ‘encouraged’ to be sterilized if they are deemed unfit for breeding.
The ‘one child policy’ means that the ‘lesser-valued’ female infants go ‘missing’ and crowd-out the adoption agencies.
Current Western supporters of eugenics argue that the Western world is turning into a racial nightmare and killing itself from the inside out by it’s devotion to egalitarian/liberal attitudes on race.
They go further (in their fantasy of End-Times and racial paranoia) to suggest that if America is to defeat China as a future superpower, then America needs to start adopting eugenics again, or become weakened by interbreeding/inferior races
American clinics currently offer the Chinese selective birth treatments for the right price.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13323730/
For current American supporters of eugenics see The Pioneer Foundation (The Bell Curve), American Rennaissance et al.
Regards,
John
To some of the comments about Genetic variation between races, I check on some papers through the Human Genome project. In the following paper, “Genetic Variation, classification and ‘race’ by Lynn B Jorde and Stephen P Wooding make some interesting observations.
1. Human genomes among the population by only 0.1% of their total DNA
2. The differences in DNA among different groups is about 85-90% due to differences in continental groups and about 10-15% is variation within that continental group.
3. While their are measurable differences in genetic variation that are useful for some biomedical requirements, they caution that using these techniques to measure variation of genetic information should not be applied to human behavior because of the danger of “simplistic interpretation that reinforce unfounded stereotypes” that “would be amusing if not so dangerous”
Getting back to Gould’s work, I am unaware that he misrepresented anyone’s work in evolution at all. In fact, his career had several instances where he changed his interpretations of evidence based on subsequent work.
What impressed me about this book when I read it 20 years ago was his attempt to link human behaviors to the work that scientists were doing and to show how their humanity determined not only the way in which they practiced science but the way in which their practice had sever consequences. In particular, this book describes the way in which the first large scale use of IQ testing on American Soldiers in World War I was used to decide that Northern and Central Europeans were superior to all other racial groups. The result was the enactment of the most draconian immigration laws in our history whose consequences we still live with.
What I really believe comes from Gould is the observation that humans impose an order on things that may or may not mean something in reality. It is important to note that our love affair affair with “intelligence” or “g” or whatever you may call it is a human construct that may help us make some decisions correctly but it is not the ultimate guide for conducting our lives.
In many senses, Gould brings to his analysis of Science the appreciation of human limitations and fallibility that has been a part of Judeo-Christian thought for millennia. Perhaps as we look at these tests, we put them in that context.
#56 Thanks for the reply, but I believe you may have misinterpreted the question. I am certain that Hitler-like fools will always exist and they will cleave to their astrology, eugenics, and phrenology pseudosciences. That is not the point.
Is there any developed nation in 2006 that practices “eugenics”? By that, I mean permits eugenics experimentation or even promotes it.
Selective child rearing has always been an ethical problem which borders on the cusp of “eugenics.” For instance, when tests are made to determine if the embryo has certain characteristics and the test results can lead to a “termination of the pregnancy,” there are those who would say that “eugenics” is in play. However, this type of testing and abortion being so very, very common in the developed world, the procedure has been “exempted” from “eugenics.”
China and India are two countries that are model practitioners of the goals of Planned Parenthood. India, in particular has used the advent of ultrasound to great advantage. They now know if it is a girl in there and the abortion of girls has grown dramatically.
“Eugenics” is a word like “racist.” It should not be used too easily.
The large philosophical problem with g-load is simply the inability of tests to measure all of the CHC factors.
Tests will measure 5-7 of the available factors and then extrapolate for the remaining to reach the total 23 factors.
Interestingly enough, standardized cognitive (IQ)tests do not use race as a factor. What they do is measure responses against a control group of a representative sample nation-wide. Thus, we do not know how race factors in but we can compare an individual against the likelihood of success.
Since tests are frequently re-normed to include changes in demographics, we cannot compare today’s tests with earlier years tests. So we can’t say, with reasonable certainty, that we are getting smarter or dumber.
“Eugenics†is a word like “racist.†It should not be used too easily.
I do not believe I use the word too easily. I use it as it is defined:
eu·gen·ics
n.
The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding.
**********************************************
Eugenics: Controlled human breeding based on notions of desirable and undesirable genotypes
**********************************************
eugenics
n. (used with a sing. verb)
The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding.
**********************************************
Eugenics
1883, coined by Eng. scientist Francis Galton (1822-1911) on analogy of ethics, physics, etc. from Gk. eugenes “well-born, of good stock,” from eu- “good” + genos “birth”
**********************************************
You said:
“Selective child rearing has always been an ethical problem which borders on the cusp of “eugenics.â€
Actually, no offense, but selective breeding is the very definition of eugenics. Even the study of it is defined as ‘eugenics’.
Popular association of the word ‘eugenics’ with ‘genocide’ has confused the debate. Maybe that is why you singled out China’s example for exclusion from ‘your’ definition of eugenics? Even though China practices cultural genocide and coercive infanticide against Tibet and others ‘minorities’.
People are misled into thinking it isn’t really ‘eugenics’ as it is called ‘Birth planning’. Bad news for little girls, Tibetans, etc.
The actual physical practice of eugenics can be coercive, voluntary or enforced (involuntary). In China it is a weird mix of all three.
Additionally, China both coerces and enforces Tibetan women to go along with the State’s 1 and 2 child policies, enforcing variously this with fines, rewards, sterilizations, abortions and infaniticide.
In China’s view so called non-Chinese minorities are “less intelligent” and more prone to give birth to handicapped, insane, retarded or dwarfed children. Birth control is encouraged to enhance “population quality”. Ironic that the Nazi ‘Lebensborn’ program (positive eugenics experiments)resulted in higher than normal birth defects.
But thank you for replying to the content of my post in a respectful manner, even though I must disagree entirely with your counter-claim against the reality of eugenics today based upon the evidence you have given. I would of course be interested to hear other definitions of ‘eugenics’ than the one’s quoted from dictionaroes and medical manuals.
Regards,
John.
I must alkso syudy my own dictionaoary, or lrean to tpye more efdectiveleley.
:-/
#61 JohnD. Nearly every couple in the developed world is engaged in “selective breeding.” We do not have a “Reverend” Moon system of on the spot mate matching.
We also have a lot of “standards” which normally do not cross religious lines among the deeply faithful and most marriages remain within the “group” which may include ethnicity, education, value systems, etc.
This is a “norm” and not a part of eugenics.
At some point soon, the “lone” woman will be able to order up a special model baby. That will be a definite form of “eugenics.”
Furthermore, soon it will be possible to order up a list of disease markers on embryos. On demand abortion based on that information will be a form of eugenics.
Eugenic is the opposite of dysgenic. Dysgenic means “biologically defective.”
Your dictionary definitions are a bit strange. Eugenics has a specific component that the definitions you quote strangely understate. Eugenics is finding and promoting the hereditary qualities that improve the breed. Think dog breeders here. Or Hitler’s Aryan Race ambitions. The definitions you cite skirt around the issue by speaking of “controlled selective breeding.” That type of phrasing avoids the point. Eugenics, is a philosophy based on an outcome based application of science. Eugenics breeds up body type, nose shape, hair color, intelligence, size, etc.
China is not a developed nation. China’s entire gross national product is less than the expansion of the US GNP for the past 36 months. It is a huge nation with unimaginable numbers of people who live in abject poverty. What the communist government does among the many tribes of people it mistreats and maltreats is no different than the raging wars between the Hutu’s and the Tutsi’s or what the Islamofascists are doing in Somalia. It is not eugenics. It is pure, unadulterated slaughter. A Chinese couple it permitted one or two children. If each parent was a single child, the couple gets to have two. If either parent had a sibling, they get one. Ignoring the rule is not an act of defiance, it is to invite unimaginable suffering and misery. Chinese prefer males over females, so if their first “only” child is female, they may well kill her and try again. But this is not eugenics.
Heliotrope,
Thanks for your considered response, I will agree to disagree on what I perceive as a narrowing of the definition of eugenics, although I do agree with you that much of China cannot be considered ‘developed society’.
When people from China turn to scientists to select the sex of their future baby, I consider this to fall under the term ‘eugenics’ as it is literally controlled selective breeding using science. Futhermore if the Chinese come to America to achieve this for a price, then it seems to me that eugenics is being practiced for profit in America.
The terms ‘positive’ eugenics and ‘negative’ eugenics exist, one is to ‘bring up the good’ and the other to ‘eliminate the bad’. I believe China practices both of these.
To go to the ‘root’ of definitions … Galton’s own definition of Eugenics is simply:
“the study of the agencies under social control that improve or impair the racial qualities of future generations either physically or mentally”
http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/html/eugenics/static/images/921.html
I do believe that socially orchestrated birth control and genetic screening etc as per China is a demonstration of eugenics at work, as well as ’slaughter’, as you put it. I also belive that forced sterilization as a matter of social ‘control’ is eugenics.
The modern name for the UK Eugenics Society is:
http://www.galtoninstitute.org.uk/
Still studying as it seems, here in good old Blighty. I believe the modern English term for eugenics is ’social biology’, an understandable attempt to shake off the pesky Nazi image.
No, I don’t think the world has even begun to be ‘done’ with eugenics, whatever definitions of it you or I choose to accept. I don’t aim to persuade you that important elements of China’s breeding programs are eugenic in nature, but you may be interested to read:
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000773.html
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/198555.stm
Regards,
John
Pakistan: Suspected London Plane Terrorists Have Al Qaeda Connection
this is dangerous for everyone…
A firefighter should have at least an Associates Degree. Even Black firefighters should be against this, because it (in my opinion) makes them look bad.
I don’t believe in this kind of affirmative action (where everything is dumbed down). In fact, I don’t believe in affirmative action in employment at all really.
But I do support some forms of affirmative action…such as more efforts by colleges/Universities to recruit/assist minority students…or to provide more access and opportunity for education.
I can’t see a good reason for a fire fighter to need a BA/BS or AA degree.
I have a friend who is a fireman. After getting in, there are tests to get to the upper levels, such as lt., captain, and above. That test relies on experience in the field.
My friend is stationed in an area with older homes. When they get fires, the fires get out of hand quickly because of the age of the buildings and the associated lack of building codes to prevent fires from spreading.
His station was taking a lot of criticism because fires serviced by the station tended to quickly go to multiple alarms. The upper brass was forced to investigate, meanwhile, white fire fighters from other stations were rotated in, and the fire fighters stationed in the hosue, were rotated out. The goal was to bring in new fire fighters to teach them “how to fight fires” in their area while showing the fireman rotated out how fire fighting is done.
The end result?
My friend’s station was deemed to be a good fire house. This was backed up by the fire men who rotated in.
Remember the older homes I mentioned? That was THE factor for fires quickly becoming multiple alarmers.
Of course, until the final report, it was said that the reason was the Black fireman at the station didn’t know what they were doing.
I should mention that those fireman who were supposed to teach them what to do, were actually taught. From what I’m told, everyone who got to fight a fire, realized what the deal was after entering a building roaches and rats were running out of.
JohnD as usual distorts history to try and prove his point. Many of the Brits sent to Australia were sent there for very petty theft. Stealing handkerchiefs or bread, for instance. There were huge problems with the British class system that left the poor with no choice but to engage in criminality. The white slave owners in the Americas had every chance to choose not to be slave owners. They chose the wrong path. Modern Black Americans have the blood of people that chose to act in inhuman ways when an alternative choice was available to them. It is a totally different case than the Australian one. The slave owners were actually criminals while most of the Australians, were victims of circumstance.
#68
“JohnD as usual distorts history to try and prove his point.”
Many of Australia’s new immigrants were not only criminals, but they were genocidal colonialists. Hunting down Australia’s existing inhabitants like animals didn’t demonstrate their ‘good blood’ as you would have it.
Which still doesn’t adress my main point: that criminality among black people in America today has probably got nothing at all to do with them having your ‘evil white slave-owners blood’ (TM) in them. If it has, where is the evidence? You made a very strong proposition without any supporting evidence. In my book that amounts to disinformation/propaganda.
Have you any proof that modern Germans are genocidal? The Natiion of Germany only a couple of generations ago enslaved and killed millions of people. Surely by your reckoning, white Germans today must be complete criminals. Or is it only black people that can catch this ‘evil blood’?
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