Note: Please don’t go off on a tangent about “judging” the men, people. The question is: “Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die?”
Let’s keep the discussion on topic.
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By now I’m sure you’ve heard about the release of two FOX News journalists captured a couple of weeks ago by group of idiot thugs. According to one of the journalists, Steve Centanni, he and his fellow captive Olaf Wiig were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint.
A few short months ago, a former Muslim was facing death in Afghanistan because he’d become a Christian. The blogosphere rallied in support, and I blogged about it here, recounting the story of the first Christian martyr, Stephen (depicted above in Rembrandt’s “The Stoning of St. Stephen”). Read the biblical account beginning with Acts 6.
Abdul Rahman did not deny Christ. He was willing to die for his beliefs, but God said, “Not yet.”
There’s no indication in the FOX story or any I’ve read that Centanni or Wiig were Christians. If they were, they probably would’ve said so. All Centanni said was:
“We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint,” Centanni told FOX News. “Don’t get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn’t know what the hell was going on.”
Embrace Islam or die. That would be a simple choice for me, though not an easy one if I had a gun to my head.
(Isn’t it strange that Centanni, who said he “converted” only because he had a gun to his head, felt the need to be apologetically politically correct by expressing the “highest respect for Islam”? Unbelievable on so many levels.)
Thanks to the blessing of living in a free and civilized country (for the time being), Christians in America likely won’t face deny-Christ-or-die scenarios. Aside from the usual attempts to shunt our beliefs from the public sphere at best, and the possibility of having Bible-based preaching labeled as hate speech at worst, Christians in America have it relatively easy compared to the rest of the world.
However…knowing that people think you’re out of your mind for believing in an omnipotent, omniscient, intelligent being outside time and space who created the world and everything in it, and that this being saw how corrupt his creation was and destroyed it, then promised to never destroy it again by water, constantly forgiving and punishing his people, then condescended to become a man to teach people about his Father’s kingdom (What is the trinity?) and eternal existence beyond this world, and bear the Father’s wrath for the sins of those he came to save — although he was sinless — and promised to return some day to judge the whole world and gather his followers as if separating wheat from chaff…is not easy. But it’s not fatal. 
Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die? Would you deny the Savior?
I thought about this a couple of years ago when Nick Berg was beheaded. I don’t think Berg was a Christian or given the choice to deny or die. He was doomed just for being an American, and being a Jew certainly didn’t help matters.
If I’m ever captured by Muslim maniacs or non-Muslim maniacs who gave me a choice between denying my Savior and death, I’d want to face death with all the dignity I had left. As a prideful person (for better or for worse), I don’t want to give my would-be murderers the satisfaction of breaking me, especially if they’re going to kill me anyway. And what is my life worth without Christ?
[Clarification: If I gave the impression that I thought I would "lose" my salvation if I denied Christ, I certainly didn't intend to, though the previous sentence may read that way. The Bible teaches that once Christ forgives us, we're always forgiven. Once saved, always saved. I don't have to work to "keep" my salvation. Yes, even if I denied Christ, God forbid it, he's still my Savior.]
Would I want to live with the shame of not trusting him and denying him for the sake of living in this fallen world?
Judgment against those who’ve murdered people because of their faith in Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Bible specifically. John, the last surviving apostle and banished to the barren island of Patmos by the Roman government because of his faith, received a vision from God about existing Christian churches and future events, including worship in heaven, and God’s terrible and righteous judgment against unbelievers and the king of unbelievers, Satan. Inspired by God, John writes:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. (Revelation 6)
Until Christ returns, his followers will be martyred for the faith. If ever faced with deny-or-die, I’d choose to be among those asking, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Addendum: A Christian mother says she’d convert (or pretend to) to stay alive for her children. While reflecting on this post before writing it, I thought about Christian mothers, especially those with young children. Would you pretend to convert to stay alive, or would you refuse to deny Christ, knowing your children may end up as orphans? Either way, it’s a matter of trust and faith.
Blog links: A Winter Soldier’s Story, Hot Air, Diggers Realm, The Colossus…
Update (12:03 p.m.): We may be dealing with two separate things here: converting (or pretending to) at gunpoint and denying Christ at gunpoint. For Christians, converting is denying. For unbelievers, I guess there’s a difference. For Christians, there really isn’t.
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I don’t know what I’d do.
As a Christian, I hope God would grant me enough strength to not renounce Christianity.
At the same time, I’d also remember that Islam allows to lie to one’s enemies.
My only hesitation in saying this is that I’d prefer not to follow Peter’s first example: but I would die at the hand of a Muslim captor before denying Christ or converting to Islam. It’s not even a question.
The ways of the so called religion of peace and to think some are actually calling SUN MUNG WEIRD MOON the KING OF PEACE what’s with these persons are they losing their minds? and frankly now he is back home he should renounce ISLAM as the religion of violence and evil
Questions. If you had to renounce you Christian beliefs under duress (gunpoint/beheading) who is being hurt? God? As men are we not judging these men based on what they did to keep alive? Is it our place to judge these men when we do not know what is in their soul? If you believe that God knows what is in a man’s soul, do you think that God understands what they had to do to say alive.
Hmmm…perhaps I need to have my eyes checked, because I don’t see any judgment in my post against the men, nor did I ask Christian readers to judge them. I asked Christians what they’d do if asked to deny Christ. Careful reading and reflection before posting works wonders.
I’d convert in a second. I have young children. I would do anything in the world to stay alive to raise them. They’ve already been abandoned once on a street in China.
Honestly,
the kidnapping looks like a hoax. To much praising Islam and the Palestinians going on. All to orchestrated and neat. But hey, that’s just me and who am I
La Shawn,
I thought the same as you when I heard about the “conversion” at gunpoint.
“Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die? Would you deny the Savior?”
Sadly, for spoiled America, I don’t think this will be answered until our security blanket here is ripped away and persecution comes. Outside of the western world, Christians are faced with the reality of what their faith in Christ truly means, everyday (we are actually the ones living in fantasy land).
I wonder what an atheist would do if forced to convert with a gun pointed at their head?
La Shawn. Jeez. I think that your being too sensitive and the insult was not needed. My questions were to provoke discussion not a judgment on Christians or your views. I enjoy your writing but that was hurtful. Courtesy works wonders as well.
Nope, I’m not being too sensitive. Had you intended to merely “provoke discussion,” that would have been clear in your post. It’s not. Instead, you either misread the post or didn’t read it carefully and implied that I was judging the men. I’ve been doing this for three years; trust me, I know exactly what you meant the first time. Either way, my blog, my rules. If you want to participate in the discussion, good. – Admin
I would HOPE that my core beliefs are strong enough that I would choose to die rather than deny my beliefs. I’m not sure though because one doesn’t really know the strength of one’s belief until the gun is actually pointed at your head.
We need to be charitable and Christian enough to reserve judgment on these two men. Stockholm Syndrome is a powerful force and their words may change radically once they are safely out of the Middle East!
Besides, “judge not lest ye be judged” seems like a good policy to follow!
Well, one can’t be forced to convert. Conversion must be in the heart. One can only be forced to act as if converted. I would pretend to convert because I don’t want my kids growing up in a fatherless home. In my heart, I will still be praying to Jesus. I’m confident that God will understand.
Also, the first opportunity I get, I would relocate to somewhere where I can worship as I desire.
‘Siyo Friends, don’t worry – be happy! Our government and our fine MSM (main scream media) will do all that is necessary for us to be well informed as to the enemy we fa… ‘… Move along folks, nothing to see here’. Bear
I’m glad to see someone else seeing it this way.
I don’t know how to do trackbacks, but I linked to you at:
http://boazandruth.blogspot.com/2006/08/fox-journalists-released-after.html
La Shawn: “(Isn’t it strange that Centanni, who said he ‘converted’ only because he had a gun to his head, felt the need to be apologetically politically correct by expressing the ‘highest respect for Islam’? Unbelievable on so many levels.)”
That was one of my very first thoughts when I read the story!
OK…about the question.
I pray that I would not deny Christ. That’s my fervent hope.
I am a wimp, and probably would be a sniveling coward in most high-pressure situations.
But I pray that God would give me what I’ve heard called “dying grace”–and that He would enable me with courage and bravery that is not usually innate in me.
Again, that is my hope and prayer.
“…especially if they’re going to kill me anyway.”—La Shawn
But, you don’t know that. These are murderers, who knows what they’re gonna do.
I’d die for liberty. “Give me liberty, or give me death”.
But, I wouldn’t die for religion.
A conversion is a lot more than just one agonizing moment.
Conversion is so much more than that. A true conversion is something that continues on over a lifetime, and you reconfirm on a daily basis, your beliefs.
So, it doesn’t really matter what someone does, during a moment of duress, what matters is the day to day conversion, over a lifetime.
I’d say whatever they wanted, to get myself out of the situation. It’s just words in that moment….to stay alive.
God knows the difference.
I truly believe God knows our hearts and He also knows those that are weaker then others and those that are stronger then others. It is not up to us to judge these men for saying what they did to stay alive and be freed. It is up to God, He is better at this kind of thing.
Where we should have our eyes wide open is in how the media kissed up to the evil of Islam that kidnapped them and will continue to do destruction to all non-Muslims. The enemy will use this as a plus in any way they can and that makes me angry.
We need to come down hard on the media that will not take a stand against Islam and will not support our troops and the IDF. Come down hard on our leaders that prefer to give in to a PC war instead of letting the military do what they do best. Not come down hard on men that may not have had nerves of steel like many of our Veterans had to have when taken prisoner.
It isn’t only Islamists who force the question at gunpoint. I’ve never forgotten the story of the Columbine girl who was asked the question “Do you believe in God?” When she answered yes, killer asked “Why?” and shot her. I’ve always considered her a martyr who went straight to heaven because she didn’t deny God. Could I do the same? I’d like to think so, but I don’t know.
Louise
I don’t remember which saint it was or the exact details off the top of my head, but this discussion brings to mind a story I heard some time ago. It goes something like this: This priest was in prison and faced with being burned at the stake the next morning for his beliefs in Christ.
With that knowledge his fear was whether he would have the strength to face the heat from the flames that would take his life.
To see if he could face the flames he placed his hand over the flame from the small candle in his prison cell. The pain was intense and he pulled back quickly from the flame. He tried again and again but each time he failed to stay over the flame for more than the barest of moments. He just couldn’t do it.
Fear weighed heavy on his spirit.
He couldn’t see how he was going to face the execution for his beliefs in the morning. He spent the night in prayer, struggling with his failure in his test with the flame from the small candle.
When the morning came and he was to be burned at the stake, a supernatural Spirit of peace descended upon him and he faced the heat from the pyre with a smile and a song of praise to God the Father on his lips.
Reminds me of this verse:
As to the mothers and fathers who would deny Christ with their mouths so as not to leave their children motherless or fatherless. Would you live with them godless?
I don’t ask that to condemn. I understand the desire on your part because of your great love for them; admittedly I have no children of my own. But speaking as a child I would be heart broken to know my father or mother denied Christ for me. I am not that selfish and neither are they.
God is sufficient.
There is no question as to what Christians shoud do in such circumstances. Sadly, our schools no longer teach such things, but century and a half ago, virtually all schoolchildren would have had at least a passing familiarity with Augustine’s “City of God”, (still surprisingly readable and relevant…) as well as “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” – both of which present a clear-headed (if currently out-of-fashion) picture of a Christian’s duty in the circumstance in which he must renounce his God or die.
In some bizarre way, even though a horrible death is involved, I think it might be easier for many people (and I think I’m one of them) to stand fast for Christ even under pain of death than to continually resist the 10,000 small sins that confront one on a daily basis. Now I’m not eager to die the death of a martyr, but I would, and there’s a degree of envy (could “envy” possibly be the right word, if stripped of its negatives?) of those given the chance to crystallize their stand in faith at a single fateful moment. In a way, that seems to me easier than the daily slog through dangers like the Slough of Despond. (This last is a reference to “The Pilgrim’s Progress”, another book with which every student would have been familiar a century ago, and one with extremely valauable lessons for those walking along the path of Christ – this was for many, many years, the best-selling book in the English language, after only the Bible itself, and was called “without doubt, the most influential religious book ever written in the English language” by Yale English Professor Alexander Witherspoon. Have *you* read it?
(As an aside, isn’t it wonderful that Christian martyrs don’t blow up airplanes, buildings, and little children?)
I have children too, but their faith in Christ is more important to their eternal souls than my temporary position as their mother. This isn’t to say that mothers aren’t important because they obviously are, but the task I mustn’t fail is to point my kids to Christ with word and deed. They have family by blood and by church so they wouldn’t be orphans if I were killed for upholding Christ. I would NOT convert or even lie about it, and if I were even halfway serious about Jesus being Lord, my dying breath would be spent proclaiming God’s truth.
Would I be scared? Would I wish things were going differently? Sure! But when it comes down to the wire, it’s written: “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.” – Matthew 10:32,33
That’s the truth whether we like it or not.
>>I’d say whatever they wanted, to get myself out of the situation. It’s just words in that moment….to stay alive.>>
Granting this point – especially the “in that moment” part…maybe. But if that “conversion” meant that I had to _live_ that lie? the rest of my life? If you’re in a situation where you can make the “I convert” statement and walk away with the option of saying it was all baloney, that’s one thing. If you’re making the statement and have no opportunity of “do-overs” that’s another.
As for the “I’d convert so the children wouldn’t be orphans” thing, I’d tend to agree, but it would be more an “I’d convert so that my children wouldn’t become muslims” as they most certainly would if they were allowed to live without their Christian parent. I think I’d rather have my children dead than become muslims.
Speaking of children…there have been many orphaned in the recent conflicts – does anyone have any idea how islamic countries handle the problem, assuming that there are no close family or tribal members to take them in? Are there orphanages? I can’ recall hearing of any…. Or do they just become street children…?
I would pray hard and ask God for forgiveness for denying Him ONLY to my captors, not in my heart. I believe he would know I was only doing it to save my skin. Especially true if the lives of my family were at stake. However, if the Lord Jesus was standing before me and I was asked to deny Him, no way. I would suffer whatever the consequence was.
#24 is already feeling guilty for saying what I did. I may have to rethink this whole thing.
I would not want to deny Christ under any circumstances. If it was just a question of my daughters going fatherless, the choice would be an easy one; no denial, no conversion, Christ is my Lord & Savior. If the choice was to convert to Islam or my daughters die, it would be a much harder choice to make; but I still would not want to deny Christ as my Lord & Savior.
My purpose in life is to be reunited with God in Heaven through Christ and to testify to God’s infinite love and wisdom by living the best life I can and professing to do so out of my belief in, and love for, Jesus Christ so that others may also find the way to eternal salvation.
Wow! I’m not really so staunchly religious, but it is what I believe and I pray I can make the right decision if I ever face that dilemma.
The thought of seeing Jesus and having him tell me he “never knew me” is infinitely more frightening than what any man can do to me. I agree with Dub (#21), I suspect it would be easier to face martyrdom than the all the “little” ways we deny Christ daily.
As for pretending to convert, what is that besides denying him before men? Keep in mind that our lives should already be given to Christ, the opportunity to proclaim him at death is for the benefit of the living, that some may be saved. If you think you couldn’t trust God to take care of your children, perhaps this is a good time to reexamine your faith. (Oh dear, I’m being judgmental, aren’t I?)
It’s not what you say; it’s what’s in your heart.
Denial with words (especially under threat) is not the same as an honest denial inside your soul. An omniscient God (presumably) knows the difference.
So I would lie my butt off.
Exactly, Louise. Also, there was another young lady at Columbine, Rachel, i think, who was asked if she believed in Christ at gunpoint. She answered yes and the guy pulled the trigger, but the gun didn’t go off and she scampered away.
I don’t know what I would do, either. I know that I hope to stay true to my faith, but I think when death is staring you in the face like that it would take the grace of God more than our own strength to do so.
I do remember reading many a tale of Christian women staying true to their faith and being martyred although they had small children. I guess they had to trust God to provide for their children as well. But I know that such fears preyed upon me much more when my own were very small. With each passing year, I feel they could do without me more.
I’m not quite sure. My mother once had a saying about martyrdom (though she was talking about terrorists). She said “You can’t do much for your religion if you’re dead.”
I tend to agree. If renouncing my faith to save my life meant that I would never be able to witness to others again, then I’d say “shoot me now.”
But if all I had to do was say “praise Allah” once and then be let go to live the rest of my life, I have to admit I’d be tempted. After all, I wouldn’t actually be praising Allah. And as a struggling homosexual, I feel that there’s a lot I can do (and have actually been called to do) to help reach out to that community. I want to help others reach Christ. I’m not sure if I can do that if I’m dead. It’s a tricky situation, either way.
I appreciate the post. My wife and I have discussed this “what if…” scenario before if I was held captive like that.
As staunch Calvinists in theology, I would go out preaching my heart out and renouncing allah as the false god that he is and Mohamet as the false prophet he was. My wife says she would do the same during the media swarm afterwards looking to get a reaction to my death.
Just as a side note: The situation with Naaman comes into mind here. (2 Kings 5:18).
Fred
Excellent post Lashawn….
Like many have said here, I hope I would never be in such a situation.
If I was still a single guy and no kids, I know I would not deny my Lord and convert to Islam to save my own life….but now that I have kids….thats a hard pill to swallow, it just makes me sick to my stomach to think of myself converting to some other religion. I still say I will not.
I think about that girl in the Columbine shootings who refused to deny Christ and was killed for it.
I also think of Peter, he denied Christ 3 times…
Some are able to exercise great faith and trust in the Lord in every situation and circumstance, some are not.
I like to think that I would stand firm for Christ. To live is Christ to die is gain. Kill me and send me to my Lord, which is where I want to go anyway. Hurt me and increase my eventual reward. Leave me alone and I’ll keep on preaching the Gospel.
I wish I’d said those things!
It’s hard to say though…your outlook is very different with a gun in your face.
I hope I’d do the right thing.
On the one hand it makes sense to simply cooperate in order to spare your life, especially since you don’t really mean it, yet on the other hand I think that whether you mean it or not becomes a moot point. It obviously means something if the terrorists would force you to do it at gunpoint or with threat of violence. If we can realize that we can fake it til we make it then surely they have realized that as well, yet it seems apparent that to them it doesn’t matter if you are sincere or not, as long as you profess to their faith, paying lip service seems to be enough.
Having said that, I would think that it would matter if you faked it or not in that even our words have power and meaning. Whether or heart is in it or not may not matter as much. Denying Christ to profess another faith, whether you mean to or not is still denying Christ isn’t it? I am sure you can repent afterwards but, what if there is no afterwards?
I’d rather stick to my guns to the end rather than have my last words be professing faith to a false god.
“to live is Christ but to die is gain” right?
I think it would depend on how I’d be killed if I had to deny God/Christ. If I was to be beheaded, I don’t know if I’d have the inner strength to stay true to my beliefs (temporarily, at least) when faced with such a grisly death. I think God would certainly grant one forgiveness if faced with such a situation.
A quick gun shot to the head would be a easier to take, for lack of a better term.
While I’m not a Christian (I lean towards Buddhism if I could say there was any organized religion I belonged to), I’ll tell any Muslim who stuck a gun to my head and ordered me to convert to go ahead and shoot me because I’d never join his religion.
Christians-in-name-only would have no trouble becoming Muslims-in-name-only.
True Christians would not convert, or even pretend to. If it were me, I would die and enter my Father’s Kingdom right on time, as He sets the limit of my days.
I thought about it and pray that I would be strong enough to die before converting.
A point brought up elsewhere is that the two men would be considered apostate by Islam if they recant the ‘conversion’ and it would bring a fatwa that they be killed by any muslim that could.
The idea that the conversion is under gunpoint is not relavant as ‘there is no coercion in religion’. They believe you have the right to die; if you convert then you were not coerced.
God forbid I was ever, or anyone I know, to be put in that position. However, if I was I would pray for the Lord to strengthen me to maintain my allegiance to Christ even unto death. I would have to trust the Lord to take care of my loved ones and that my death would be a witness to the fact that eternity is more important than the temporal.
Granted, the above is easy to say coming from our relatively safe community here in the United States. Also, I don’t sit on the judgment/mercy seat. I speak only for my own conviction.
how best to put this … why would mere *words*, spoken under extreme duress to psychotic madmen threatening your life, be a huge a issue to god? as i’m not a bible-reading fellow, i cannot cite scripture to back this up, but aren’t there passages in there that say something to the effect of ‘what you do is more important than what you say’?
so lunatics holding you a gunpoint make you say – as a condition of not killing you – things you don’t really believe. today, it’s “i’m now a moslem”. so let’s take that hotbutton concept out of the equation, and say you were made to proclaim, “i’m now a butterfly”. it’s obviously not true; you obviously don’t mean it; in your heart you still love jesus; but these guys are nuts, and this is life-and-death. does god insist that you choose death rather than tell a whopper?
back in the bad-ol’ cold war days, every now & then the bad guys would capture a few of our servicemen and make them slander their country on video. “capitalist imperialist warmongers”, that sort of thing. when we got our guys back, they weren’t prosecuted for those things they’d *said*, were they? because it was understood that they’d been beaten & tortured, and they never meant it? so why does this have to be any different?
i know, i know. “honor”. highly important, & there’s not enough of it these days, as i’ll be the first to say. but, again, we’re dealing with madmen here. men with no more concept of honor than dung beetles. does god hold against you lies told to hopelessly insane sociopaths?
one of the central tenets of christianity is – i gather – “forgiveness”. just as our tortured servicemen were forgiven. does the bible SAY you have to take the bullet? does the bible SAY that meaningless words, mere puffs af air no more tangible than a politicians’ slogan, spoken under extreme circumstances will forever cast you from jesus’ sight? (not being a wiseguy here, i don’t know.) if it does, fine; that’s that. but if it doesn’t…..what’s the big deal?
God help me, I couldn’t deny my Saviour. We need to fear God, who has the power to throw us into Hell, rather than fear men. My life is not worth my soul. We cannot, as Christians, deny Jesus.
Rev 6: 9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
ed asked:
That is a very valid question, ed.
Speaking for myself, I must say the big deal is the love I have for God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the indwelling Holy Spirit. It’s knowing that the Father is the one who safe guards my very existence.
It’s knowing that as I submit in obedience to Him, anything that comes my way I can face because of His Spirit in me. It’s not asking myself, What would Jesus do?, but being and doing what Jesus would do because I am not focused on what my desire or will is but upon what the Father’s will is because of my desire to please Him.
You see, the Lord is more real to me than that bullet, that sword, or whatever threatens my flesh.
Which isn’t to say there aren’t daily struggles, as was noted in the comment #21, by Dub Dublin. Dub is so correct that the daily struggle is often the more difficult. Even Paul said as much when he said he would prefer to be at home with the Lord than still on earth. But he also noted that:
And in saying that, Paul reminds us that living Christ not only means helping people, showing them love and forgiveness, having a daily personal relationship with the Father, but can and will include suffering too.
I know you asked for Christian oppinions, but I wanted to provide a Jewish perspective. Reading about this made me think of Kol Nidre, which arose during the Middle Ages, during a time when Jews were being forced to convert by the Catholic Church. Kol Nidre is a renunciation of all vows between oneself and God, that one might make under duress. I think I would still feel horrible about renouncing my Jewish faith, even if it were at gun point, and I pray that the Almighty would give me the strength if I ever found myself in that position.
My honest opinion – I would like to think that I would not “convert” to Islam or deny my Lord under pain of torture or death. But I don’t know.
I cannot imagine renouncing the Lord Jesus Christ, but the answer lies in the faith of each of us. We can only answer for ourselves.
This was my first and continuing internal debate since their release. For me, I can only wonder why I am of two minds. My first reaction is to desire to be as those whose “witness” (martyrdom) we see in the Bible and church history. My second is the knowledge that forcing me to say something means nothing. I also know that with this same knowledge I would have been more likely when younger to just lie. Now that I am older death is not the threat it once was. In fact I may just thank them for the chance to seal my life’s witness.
Ok, I’m obviously confused about Christianity.
Jesus Christ was the one who died for us. He was the one who willingly went to his death, so that we could live.
We don’t die for him…..he died for us.
Or, so I thought.
To say that you would die for your God…..feels very cult-like…to me.
I, personally, would die for liberty, and I would fight to the death to protect the Constitution…..because with out that…..you cannot even practice religion.
I go down fighting, doing whatever I think , or need to say to preserve my life, if that doesn’t work and I’m killed anyway……at least I died fighting….at least I tried to escape death.
I agree with the others who say belief is in your heart. It’s not about words.
And, God already knows what’s in your heart….no words necessary.
Glamchild – your comment sounds nice enough: but it denies the entirety of the New Testament, not to mention the history of the early church.
“To say that you would die for your God feels very cult-like to me.”
You can take that up with the apostles Paul, Peter, and Thomas, among others. Was Emperor Nero, who lit Christians on fire to light his gardens, any less insane than today’s Islamic terrorists?
ok, let’s boil it down to the essence. bad guys say “convert or die!”; you say “no way!”. you’ve just chosen death.
questions:
1)have you not in a way just committed suicide? is such a thing right? proper? moral?
2)does the bible actually demand your death/martyrdom in a case like this? where?
3)if your martyrdom is NOT demanded, then by choosing it – in an instance where it could be avoided by telling a lie to psychopaths – is that perhaps a sin of excessive pride?
4)there’s a major world religion that promotes/demands/glorifies martyrs hot & heavy these days. is choosing to do what *they* think is a supercool thing, really a good idea?
again, i’m not trying to be a wiseguy here. i’m not a bible-reader, and i don’t know the answers to these questions. but i AM troubled by those who believe they MUST ‘die for jesus’, if the founding documents of the religion don’t demand it. i know of no quote attributed to jesus in which he says “you must always profess your belief in me even at the pain of death”. choosing martyrdom is a hallmark of radical islam; to my mind that’s a real real bad thing to do.
>>Jesus Christ was the one who died for us. He was the one who willingly went to his death, so that we could live.>>
But He didn’t have to, really. He only “had” to in the sense that not to have done so would have negated His life. He is the model, and it’s one we should follow, but He is perfect and we are not – that is the struggle each of us has. We have the feeling that to deny our beliefs would negate our lives, but at the same time knowing that it’s what is in our hearts that counts, not the words we may be compelled to speak.
There may also be an element of pride in this…
As for the cult-like thing… I understand your position – have you read “The True Believer”? It raises questions…!
No Christian should be confused about such a basic tenet of the faith. Christ died so that those he saved could live spiritually, not physically. He didn’t suffer for my sins so I could live in a physical body. He suffered so I wouldn’t be eternally separated from God, which is spiritual death.
Getting into biblical doctrine with unbelievers and others who don’t read the Bible is difficult on a comment thread.
Which is why I rarely tackle it on this blog.
Words have an effect. Under the described scenario, verbally betraying Christ is not done in a vacuum, so there is the reality that the denial of Christ will deeply affect those who witness it or become aware of it. It is not as simple as crossing one’s fingers while uttering lies.
Let us not forget, we who make that one-time decision to trust Jesus Christ as our Savior, then all our sins are paid for and forgiven, past, present and future. He died for every sin for every person. Those who chose to accept that salvation can never lose it.
Jesus Christ said in John 10:28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
Once secure in Jesus Christ we are secure eternally. No sin, no false confession or denial can separate us from our Savior. That is the Peace that passes all understanding!!
Romans 8:38-39 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Jesus Christ is the SAVIOR, not a probation officer checking to see how obedient we are. Once in Christ by our faith, obedience to Him is a privilege, not a requirement for salvation.
A denial for a true believer has no bearing on his/her eternal life.
What should we do if/when faced with Islam or die?
As for me, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” Philippians 1:21
ExP (Jack)
Good topic LaShawn… I was considering this this morning and last week when a local radio program was discussing Jill Caroll’s enthusiasm for her Muslim kidnappers. Would I cooperate with evil in order to live? Would I convert (in effect, to deny Christ) to live? The answer to both questions has to be no. I would pray for strength because I know, in my weakness, I would do anything to avoid pain or death.
Ed, I would very much like to share with you the stories from the Bible of men who died proclaiming the gospel — the good news — of Christ. Jesus had fore-warned them they would share in his violent death. The apostles went in with their eyes open. That’s just a smattering of New Testament apostles. Prophets in the Old Testament submitted to death rather than deny the truth of God’s word as well. So to answer your question about whether the Bible requires death rather than denying Christ, I would say there’s considerable precedent in favor of it.
In scripture, suicides are people who actively take their lives (like Judas hanging himself). Jesus did not save himself from the cross, and he could have called legions of angels to his defense. Was that suicide? Consider that as he died on that cross and prayed for his persecutors, the thief next to him knew he was the living God, believed, and was saved.
Whether or not it’s prideful seems a more philosophical question. Can pride motivate one to die when a simple Isalmic conversion could save one’s life? A prideful person, I think, would want to stay alive.
Finally, as for drawing a paralel between Christian martyrs and the Muslims who blow themselves up near schools and shopping malls, surely you can see the difference. Christian martyrs are killed by mobs or state officials demanding they recant their testimony or die. Muslim bombers, acting under no physical duress whatsoever, blow themselves up and try to take as many unconnected innocents with them (preferable children and civilians) as possible. I think there is an essential distinction.
God Bless,
E.
We can all sit here and debate about what we would do if we were given the choice. Yet if the person who doesn’t support the police will most likely be the first ones to call them … what do we really know about ourselves?
In interrogation or torture situations, your mind is broken. Your will most likely will break down at some point … and you start to believe in what your captors are saying. You see their sides. If they tell you – convert at gun and be set free OR stay here and die … you will see the points in being free.
There is a book called “Silence” written by Endo, about Catholics who were sent to Japan to try and convert the Japanese. Then all these priests wer eput to death, some died … but the main character, Father Rodrigues … his will was broken. He was reminded of what Jesus said to Peter and he heard the rooster crow … and he denied Jesus 3 times. I read the epilogue as seeing, he may have denied him outloud but not in his heart.
In Eastern Catholicism, it’s said to convert – you must pray and think it through. How do we know, if they didn’t pray or not … and they thought it was the best in their situation. Yet I doubt, they’re going to pray to Mecca – 5 times a day.
They did what they had to do.
If we were put in the situations, we might actually give up our lives for our religions and some of us who are saying that … might be the first to break.
We just don’t know.
I am one that is more willing to die at choice for my country and for my family. God can decide any day for you to come to Him. It’s not up to us but up to God. We cannot end our lives because no one has that power but Him.
I choose to live until He chooses.
AMEN LaShawn,comment #52 is something I was just reminded of myself yesterday. We should not attempt to discuss biblical doctrine with unbelievers. Without the Holy Spirit the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him . . .
It has been repeated here many times over – “if we deny him, he will also deny us” – Christians are told to endure sufferings, even sufferings unto death. Yes, he knows are heart – in fact he described our “heart” many times: Gen 6:5 – every intent of the heart was evil continually; Jer 17:9 – The heart is deceitful above all things; Matt 12:34 – for out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
No I shall not deny Christ, even at gunpoint.
My son is one years old. I’d “convert” to stay around to raise him.
My heart would know The Truth.
ExPreacherMan,
A true Christian will show the fruits of a conversion in his life. This “one time decision” may have not been a true conversion, just something done at a Harvest Crusade in a moment of psychological pressure. True Christians will die for their Lord, so that they may fulfill in their bodies the sufferings of Christ. Denial of Christ is not the fruit of a true believer.
Matthew 7:26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
As an atheist, I would hope that I had the courage of my convictions to LIE, LIE, LIE about my religion.
‘Cause it doesn’t freakin’ matter.
“Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die?â€
This Christian would first and foremost do all things possible not to end up in such a dire situation. That includes being armed at all times. Read Luke about trading your very garment for a sword and know why old cops call it “dressed”.
If faced with the situation, my first impulse is always to get the gun from the bad guy and use it on him and his. Not as difficult as some may imagine for the determined, trained and fit individual. They like longer guns for that intimidation over there, which means much more leverage advantage than a handgun, incidentally. Rule number one in any situation where someone else is trying to take you prisoner or succeeds in taking you prisoner is to FIGHT, fight IMMEDIATELY and fight hard, do not let them take you to their lair without you doing anything and everything you can to prevent that or at least make it very difficult for them. Gouge eyes. etc.
Finally, all else failing, I’d take the slow and painful death of an Al-Zaqiri style bungled beheading with the dull machete sawoff before ever renouncing Christ, but hey, I do recall Him stating that explicitly in the gospel, don’t you?
Only an idiot would walk about in the Middle East unarmed. Like the “journalists” do. I don’t think that news reporters belong in combat and that the whole “bring the war to the people” bs is a red herring anyway. MSM isn’t reporting, they are absolutely propagandizing. Even Fox.
Good Christian men, Lock and Load, Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
Trying to keep on track – I stopped reading the comments after La Shawn’s comment # 6. I’ll go back through them in a bit. – - –
Question! “Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die? Would you deny the Savior?” –
I’d have to laugh. Jesus is so real to me. Much more real that this planet of temporary ‘life’.
I hope I would have sense enough to ask two questions.
One: Do they really believe that their murdering me would make anyone in the world run to allah for salvation?
Two: If lust is prohibited in the Koran why are Suicide Bombers enticed by lust of young virginal women to cause them to murder innocent civilians?
I would not expect any answers. But I would KNOW beyond any shadows of any doubts that those questions (or questions like them) might bring doubts to their minds. IF (I say again) IF these ‘terrorists’ really are religiously inclined.
I have a feeling that most of them could give a hoot about allah and just like spilling blood.
Of my ultimate destiny I’ve no doubt. I’ll sit under a rock (is the altar a good sized chunk of marble? that is the way I envision it.) for as long as God says…
“Without the Holy Spirit the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him . . .”-Zipla
Foolishness indeed. As an agnostic, I would rather die than to convert to any religion.
Well Shavonne, wouldn’t that make you as foolish as those you name call? Actually more, since they are confident they will live on while you’d be throwing all you have away. Oooooh…Kaaaa…sure you would.
BTW, I know agnostics. Agnostics are friends of mine Believe me, you’re no agnostic.
Highly pragmatic agnostics don’t martyr themselves. They live to help the other SOB martyr himself.
I believe you is one of those dumb-a** atheists.
Pardon me for cursing La Shawn. I shouldn’t have said that word ‘atheist’ on your blog.
OK – I went through the rest of the comments and I could add a lot to what was said Only two cents worth I’ll add:
- 1: #59 – “True Christians will die for their Lord, so that they may fulfill in their bodies the ’sufferings of Christ’.” Read the scriptures again (I Peter 4 & Phil 3) and you will see the suffering is not death but NOT allowing ANY sin into His life. – I’ve yet to meet the man who has gotten there. – I’ll raise my hand first when the question is asked, “Who needs grace?”
- 2: #64 – I’m reminded of Luke: 22:36-38 – There were ONY two swords (approved by Jesus) on the Mount of Olives. Yet of those only one was pulled out to protect Jesus.
What occurred with the Fox reporters is a brilliantly clear example of how utterly destructive diversity and ecumenism are. When one embraces the subjective right and wrong of diversity, and the all roads lead to heaven mantra of ecumenists, one is left with little or no foundation: Why not embrace islam? It just as valid as any other religion, right? The islamics are no more guilty that are the Crusaders (mobilized to rout moslems who had invaded the Holy Land – not the other way around), right?
Unfortunately this is the base of so many who really don’t stand for much of anything – so they fall for everything.
As for me, the question of denouncing Christ is a simple one. I would ask God for a quick end and forgiveness for my sins, as well as those of my attacker.
The contrast of martyrdom is a defining one. A Christian would achieve martyr status for refusing to denounce Christ and losing one’s life as a result. I don’t think anyone reading this needs to be reminded of the perverse idea of martyrdom in the moslem world.
I am a Jew. And not a very devout one, at that.
But the degree of faith I place in my faith is insignificant compared to the disdain I have for anything false in my life.
If I did “accept” Islam, then Islam would be weaker for it. And Islam is already weaker for its growth and sustenance being so dependent upon fundamentalist rigidity in mandating adherence to it.
How could I look myself in the mirror after “accepting” a belief that is not mine? I suppose that this can be rationalized against the option of losing my life. That argument would be only more compelling in the heat of the moment.
Perhaps that would be my rationalization: Yes, I will “convert” to Islam in the face of your threat, with my vengeance being a weaker Islam for it.
This “conversion” bothered me greatly from the very first moment I heard the reports. I prayed for both men. I prayed for their souls, and I prayed for me.
What would I do? Having experienced God’s grace in being saved from non-believers and knowing/seeing the Lord’s saving hand in my life on this earth, I would pray. Pray for the strength to do what God would want me to do. Pray as always with my daily struggle to surrender my will to God. Pray for the enemies before me, pray that even in my physical death (if it came to that)that maybe these enemies could see the true Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ. Pray that even the smallest dot or sliver of light of God’s grace could penetrate those hearts of evil. I would pray that they could come to know God’s forgiveness even for the sin of my death that they might soon commit.
And I would pray that my last breath, gurgle, or scream would be in praise of the Lord.
This life is but a dot compared to the eternity with Christ in heaven.
(I would also pee my pants. (God has a sense of humor after all!!!)
34 Jesus said to him, “Most certainly I tell you that tonight, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.”
35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you.” All of the disciples also said likewise.
and look what happened to him.
#61 – It does matter because eternity is the wrong thing to be wrong about.
When even one of atheism’s top dogs looks at the evidence and determines that there is indeed a Creator, it’s time to stop insisting that “God doesn’t exist because I say so.”
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/
Excellent discussion, all. Thanks for the forum, La Shawn!
I would rather die than deny Jesus. I know a lot of people have said they wouldn’t know until they were in that situation (heaven forbid) and asked the question to convert or die. But for me, it’s not even a choice. God knows my heart, but words do mean something. Jesus is in my heart and with me all the time, so there is no choice or crossing my fingers and saying I’m sorry later. I would rather die.
I am a soon-to-be mother, and I know my decision would still be the same. This little baby inside of me is most precious, but I know that if I could deny Christ just to live this life, I would not be passing on the legacy I want in my family about Christ.
“Once saved, always saved. I don’t have to work to “keep†my salvation. Yes, even if I denied Christ, God forbid it, he’s still my Savior.”
And they overcame him [the accuser of the brethren] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:11
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6
Think about it, La Shawn, and reconsider. Christians may be given this choice sooner than we imagine possible. Time to start praying for grace now.
Bill
I cannot deny that which I know to be true. Simple as that. It would be hard, but faith is faith. If I believe it, then I believe it. I trust in Him to take care of the details…Afterall, the Navy Seals might be in the next room, sent by God, of course, ready to scoop me up, and deliver me to safety, before the evildoers can get a shot off.:-)
Scripture gives us an example of an attempted “forced conversion” in Daniel 3 where the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar builds a big gold statue and announces that when his orchestra makes a big racket, everyone is to fall down and worship it. Anyone failing to prostrate themselves before this image will be tossed into a fiery furnace. When the dedication begins and the racket breaks out, everyone hits the dirt except for 3 young Jewish men, captives from Jerusalem, who have been serving the king (quite well) as some sort of administrators.
The king confronts these guys (Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego) with their disobedience, asking: “Is it true that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? If you don’t you will be immediately thrown into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”
And the boys reply: “If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if He does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
That’s the kind of response I pray I could make if one of these Islamonazis held a gun to my head. It’s not about me and preserving my sorry self–God in His mercy has preserved me thus far for His purpose. And maybe my death in such circumstances would have the same impact on my captors as Jim Elliot’s death in the Amazon had on his killers–his “martyrdom” eventually led to conversions of formerly bloodthirsty cannibals to Christianity.
And I would probably wet myself, too.
A conversion, forced or otherwise, would not be an option for me. If faced with this choice, I would be afraid, but determined to greet it with all available courage. My personal belief in the reality of the gospel and the divinity of Christ lead to no other moral choice.
I have read that the term islam actually means submission. This practice of forced conversion is a sadly telling point about the mindset which it fosters.
At least it would not be crusifixtion or being burned at the stake. Morbid.
I don’t think Jesus would mind you telling a lie to a murderous Muslim maniac to stay alive. Christianity is not a suicide pact. If you thought it would preserve your life and allow you to expose the thugs later, that seems like the smart play. However, if you’re held by Al Qaeda and there is no chance of survival, I’d say screw ‘em. Give them nothing. Go out like that Italian contractor they executed on an Iraqi snuff video, who told them he’d show them how an Italian died.
I’m glad the Fox guys were freed and I’m glad that Centanni is safe but I found his pandering to Islam sickening. What do the Muslims need to do to justify criticism from the politically correct? It doesn’t take a genius to see that Islam is one screwed up religion.
One guy told me over the Internet that he was in the WTC when it was first hit. He got out of the second tower before it got hit and went sprinting away, looking back periodically to see them billowing smoke. He came across a mosque on 2nd Avenue (?) where the Muslims were celebrating the event, to his shock. He said it took him a long time to get over that.
Why would you want to get over it? Why would you want to process the evil acts of Muslims through the PC blender to come up with an alternative view of the event, detached from reality, which gives them a masochistic positive spin? How many jumbo jets do the PC crowd need to fall on them before they wake up and smell the burning jet fuel?
When Muslims say they love death like we love life and claim that is their advantage, that is the most concise definition of an evil faith you can profess. It’s high time we called it like we saw it, instead of making excuses for our attackers.
Tantor
It is better to die with Christ than to deny him. I would go to my physical death.
Interesting reading all the comments….especially those of fellow moms with children. I think that adds an extra burden for us, but that the Lord is prepared to give us extra strength. I’d like to think that I would never deny the Lord before another person, but honestly can’t say for certain that if my life were on the line, that I wouldn’t at least consider “just saying words” to continue my life here with my children – again, as someone said, to be sure they were continued to be raised as Christians.
That being said, I think it was on Michelle Malkin’s site, that someone pointed out, that this video has been broadcast on Al Jazeera – the entire Arab world has seen their “conversion”. So if they were to publicly recant, the entire Arab world would know, meaning they would be targets for said Arab world. (Have you heard the Muslim penalty for apostasy – their word for recanting? Same as penalty for not converting – death, usually by beheading.) So it is entirely possible that while you might avoid death by “converting”, you could soon be welcoming it by recanting later…
Seems to be the ideal situation would be to rid ourselves of the Islamonazis to begin with…no negotiation with them anyways. Yet, how as a Christian, commanded to pray for those who hate me and persecute me, do I reconsile that? Very deep thoughts for a Tuesday I think. Thanks for keeping us all on our toes LaShawn. Good work as usual!!
The Koran accepts Jesus as a Prophet. Who says you would have to “DENOUNCE” Jesus. Muslims do not denounce Jesus.
OK, the short, flippant answer:
I would certainly maintain my confession of Jesus as the savior. As a Christian, death or the fear of death should hold no power over me. In reality, I may or may not buckle, but I would pray for the strength and the faith necessary to face death without denying Christ.
Now for the longer explanation:
As many have expressed here, we Christians can not lose our salvation. The Bible is clear about this. But, we will still be judged and those who have sacrificed themselves for Christ (given of their money, time, talent, and even their life) will be rewarded richly. Those of us who were poor in faith will still be saved but our rewards will be less.
What are these rewards? I don’t know. Will it effect us for all of eternity? I don’t know. Am I going to be richly rewarded? I don’t know, but I do know when I have not put my full faith in God and his Son and it scares me to think that I will have to account for that eventually.
As a father of five children, it would be easy for me to say, “I would lie and pretend to convert so that I may provide for my children.” But is that truly putting my faith in God? Can He not take care of my children better than me? If fact, wouldn’t I be doing my children a disservice to show them that faith is so easily discarded in the face of strife? Surely I will still be saved, but then how do I instruct my children to put their total faith in God when I was so quick to denounce Him?
In the end, my faith has never been tested under such dire circumstances, but I would hope that I could maintain it even to the moment of death. I pray to God now that he help me increase my faith so that when I am confronted I will be faithful to Him.
This issue is all about perspective… God’s perspective.
For non-believers, it is an easy question. Since a non-believer believes that this life is all there is, he or she will do anything to preserve what little time they have on this earth.
For weaker Christians, they will act similar to unbelievers. Although they may profess with their lips, inwardly they doubt their beliefs and still cling to their life on this earth. They will deny God, but ask for his forgiveness later. They will live the rest of their lives with the guilt of this decision.
For stronger Christians, they will realize this for the test that it is. Which is more important, this life on earth or professing our faith in the one true God? How many verses in the Bible ask if you are willing to pick up your cross? You do know what a cross is used for, right? Will you choose this world, or will you choose to follow Christ? This is the question that Christ asks us through the Bible.
Paul himself writes often of his sufferings, and gladly suffers them all for knowing Christ and proclaiming him as savior.
One other poster asked “What about mothers?” I challenge you to find one verse where God tells you to put your children’s wellbeing ahead of Him. There are two things to consider… 1) Do you trust God to provide for your children if you are taken from them (through your spouse, relatives, churchmembers, etc.)?… and 2) What would your children think if they became devout Christians, and then learned of your choice?
When I die, I hope that people will not fixate on how long I’ve lived, but rather on the manner in which I’ve lived. I now live my life for Christ, not for myself.
God bless.
I wrote about this yesterday here:
http://www.belch.com/~blog/2006/08/28/muslims-commit-faith-rape-on-hostages/
I honestly don’t know what I would do in this situation- stand up for christianity or try to save my life. I am going to try not to ever be put in that situation. But to true christians, having to publically deny Christ under threat of death has to be as deeply wounding as a sexual assault of the worst kind. Which is why I call it “Faith Rape.”
LaShawn,
It is easy to say that I would die for my SAVIOR, who died for me. However, that is so much easier said than done. I would love to say that I would die for HIM, however, when faced with my own mortality, and thinking of my family, I have no idea what I would do if some idiot was pointing a gun at me. I am so torn on this. I am strong in my faith, and know without a doubt that I would be in GOD’s presence as soon as I took my last breath, but what of my responsibilities on this earth? We should, however, cast aside worldly things. I honestly cannot tell you what I would do. It is a tough decision that until we are faced with, can not for sure say what we would/would not do.
This is a tough question, but one that Jesus answered in Matthew 10: 19-20, “But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”
If God forbid, you ever have to make the good confession under such compulsion, rest in the Holy Spirit and not on your own strength and you will find the power to do what honors God.
My trackback for this post did not work. I said Why does it have to come down to a decision to deny Christ, and live, or die as a martyr? There is a third alternative, lead your captors to Christ. These guys are not theological geniuses. If you have a little knowledge of the Koran, paraticularly the more peaceful verses in the early Suras, you can ask them to explain them to you. Then ask if they believe that everything in the Koran is the absolute truth. You know that they are going to say of course it is…. If they believe what the Koran says in these verses, then explain to them some of the other things that Christ said and did, and see if you can lead them to Christ. You may still get shot, but can you think of a better way to go?
By default, anybody who would point a gun at my head isn’t getting what they’re demanding. Not to be flip, but they could demand I eat a twinkie or else shoot and I’m not eating the twinkie. Yes, I’m stubborn. Think holding a gun to my head is going to change that?
That position answers the author’s question, yet not for the religious reasons others have. If he asked me to deny Christ, he’d get spit on, too … along with a few choice words.
To flip the question, what if that person holding the gun were demanding you to convert TO Christianity and you were’t already?
Even Saint Peter denied our Lord when he was under threat. And that was after our Lord warning him so that he could have prayed and prepared.
I am grateful that at least gross pride is not one of my vices, so I know that without God’s help I most certainly would fail the test as well.
This is something that is part of my daily prayers in fact, not just as preparation in the event I face a trial of my faith, but moreso for those that are already being put to the test, that the Lord shows mercy upon them and strengthens their faith so that they may bear the cross set upon them.
I believe our only hope of passing the test is to have offered our Lord prayer and sacrifice continously in advance, not only for ourself but for all the faithful, that He might show us mercy and keep us strong should we be put to the test.
Because He is the only thing that will get us through it.
I doubt that I would have the strength or courage to defy the captors and choose certain and immediate death. However, I am certain that Christ abiding in me would give me sufficient strength, courage or anything else needed at that moment to proclaim Christ and deny Allah or any other false god.The prospect of living the rest of my life, which may amount to minutes or years, having denied the very One who gave me life in the first place, would not be worth living. It is very easy to sit at a computer and say, as Peter did, ” Lord, I would never deny you!”, not being blindfolded, cuffed, with an AK 47 flash suppressor pressed against your skull. This is the point of separation between believers in Christ and non-believers. You see, once you accept Christ, you never walk alone again. Non-believers cannot grasp this concept, because it is not real to them. But for those who know the living God, having Him abiding in them, constantly convicting their spirit, it would be unconscionable to sit in front of a camera and announce to the world, with finger pointed toward heaven, ” I now worship Allah.”
I think this depends on the situation. If I were a lone hostage and had only my momentary situation to think about, then I’d pretend to convert if I thought it was a useful strategy in getting myself released. If, however, our country were taken over by these barbarians and we were all told to convert or die, then I think as a group, we would need to stick together and resist, even if that meant sacrificing our lives. Not sure if that makes sense, but if you think about it, this is how Islam has taken over so much of the world, by mass forced conversions. There is strength in unity, and the “group” should resist.
In Judaism, there are three instances in which we are commanded to sacrifice our lives: 1) if we are coerced to murder someone; 2) if we are coerced to engage in illicit sexual acts; 3) if we are coerced to bow down to idols or accept a false G-d. I imagine the Muslim penchant for converting infidels would fall under #3. However, in the Inquisition, many Jews converted to Christianity in order to save their lives and they were forgiven. I think it is a case of doing the best you can under the circumstances.
It is an interesting question, LaShawn, but of course, none of us knows what we would do if we were really faced with such a horrible choice.
Let’s pray that we vanquish the Muslims before they kill us all.
The decision to convert or die is different for everyone. However, as a female, the difference becomes more than temporarily denying Christ or accepting Muhammed in His place. As a Muslim female in a Shari’ah community, all freedoms are lost. There is no freedom to read, to write, to learn anything not ordained as NEEDED by the Mullah or Imam. I could not live like that and never will be able to, but by ‘converting’ I may have a chance to escape to freedom. If I weren’t stoned first for any number of crimes against Islam. Like saying hello to someone strange, showing too much ankle, refusing to marry a Muslim male (Muslim males can marry women of any religion but a Muslim female can only marry a Muslim male so would the marriage of a female who converted be recognized by the Muslim community if her husband were an infidel?) yep, even if I converted I would either be free through escape or dead within weeks because I was raised to be a woman, not a slave.
When I heard the news of this forced conversion to Islam, I had to examine my heart. What would I do if forced at gunpoint to convert to Islam? I came to the conclusion that I would declare myself a follower of Jesus Christ, and suffer the consequences. I hope I am never put to the test, but this incident has served to make us think and examine ourselves, and that may be a blessing to us all.
Greg
I thank God that so many Bible-believing Christians are commenting on this post. You’ve covered areas I didn’t get to cover in this post. Your faith and witness touch me across time and space. I pray that the Holy Spirit, through this post and your words, changes hearts today..
I thought these reporters were released “UNHARMED”?
Don’t tell me the MSM is lying to us?
There are very few things GOD would negatively judge anyone for when done at gun point. The fact you that your are forced at gun point to renounce and convert, makes the renunciation and conversion a lie.
The reporters never claims to be saints. I forgive them, I am sure God does too.
As a faithful Catholic I would look to the guidance of the Apostles and all of the other martyred saints and pray to God for the strength to declare my faithfulness to Him.
A man’s mind changed against his will
Is that man with the same opinion still.
I’m rather concerned about the fact that I can easier make a choice to sacrifice my life for my God than I can be a “living sacrifice” (Rom 12:1) every day.
#88 “For non-believers, it is an easy question. Since a non-believer believes that this life is all there is, he or she will do anything to preserve what little time they have on this earth.”
Fairly glib statement to make. As if it a deity is required to have morals.
I am not devoutly religious, but I would hope that I would have the fortitude to stand up for ANY of my beliefs and not renounce my true beliefs at gunpoint. But I’ll never know unless it happens.
Being strong enough to die for what you believe in does not require religion, only a belief that there are things in this world greater than yourself.
I truly enjoy your perspectives. I do not expect the following article to be published in its entirety nor do I expect or want any personal recognition. My concern is that several of your responders incorrectly espoused incorrect interpretation of scriptural judgment. This obviously disturbs me that so many Christians misunderstand God’s directives concerning our judgment responsibilities. Please feel free to utilize any part of this article (if you agree with the scriptural premise) to address this misconception. I wrote this article in response to a men’s study that I participated in and actually led to my voluntary disassociation with this church because of their continued ecumenical position and their opposition to what I believe is a true position of proper judgment for Christians.
God Bless you in your work
Tom
Is it right to Judge?
In this current societal atmosphere that is swift to label individuals intolerant or hateful if they vocally object to so-called progressive attitudes or progressive issues embraced by the liberal media elite and the emerging liberal religious community, it is imperative that Biblical exegesis (critical explanation or interpretation) is not compromised. Let us keep three scriptures in the forefront when identifying themes – Acts 17:11; 2Peter 3:16 (Chapter – Day of the Lord warning – unlearned or ignorant people and unstable or vacillating people that wrest or pervert or distort scripture); 2Timothy 3:16 (Chapter Last Days – description of people in the Last days – Paul tells Timothy how to cope with these times – Key word here is All in the 16th verse – doctrine (learning and teaching as from an instructor), reproof (conviction and evidence), correction (rectification), and instruction (disciplinary correction, chastening, or chastisement). Growth oriented churches such as Rick Warren’s Saddleback church disregard this verse. Their message as directed by Warren is to only provide a positive message that overlooks the warnings and criticisms (judgments) throughout scripture. Saving souls is not about a methodology that provides comfort and entertainment that results in church growth; rather it is one that provides education of the entire Word of God that equips us for the Great Commission and maintains the purity of Christ’s church. When we presume that our ideas for a healthy church are better than God’s plan and directives for Christ’s church we are attempting to elevate or equate ourselves with God just as Satan did in the Garden of Eden. Sometimes it is not what someone says but what he does not say that should raise red flags. A verse must be interpreted or understood in the context of the chapter and in the totality of scripture. The Jehovah Witnesses are the frontrunners in twisting scripture by taking verses out of context to support an organizational position. A quick example: “The Father is greater than I†(John 14:28)– This statement by Christ is used to support the Jehovah Witness Organization’s position that the Trinity is a misrepresented and erroneous doctrinal position. By itself it does cause one to ponder but within the entire context of scripture it poses no quandary. Thus, with a basis established for scripture examination, let us determine if a theme exists in scripture that directs us not to judge.
First, let us review the Greek word most often translated “judge†or “judgment†– krino. On the one hand, it means to distinguish, to decide, to determine, to conclude, to try, to think, and to call in question. This is the path that God wants His followers to follow and embrace. With this concept of judgment acknowledged, we can then determine compliance to Biblical truth. However, on the other hand, it also means to condemn, to sentence and to punish. We recognize that these are God’s prerogatives and not ours (Romans 12 – Vengeance is mine).
What does scripture declare concerning judging? Jesus commanded, “Judge righteous judgment†(John 7:24). Jesus said, “Thou hast rightly judged†(Luke 7:43). The apostle Paul said, “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say†(1 Cor. 10:15). Paul said, “He that is spiritual judgeth all things†(1 Cor. 2:15).
Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets…. you will know them by their fruits†(Matthew 7:15,16). This is a warning and command from our Lord. How could we “beware†and how could we know that they are “false prophets†if we did not judge? The apostle Paul admonished believers, “Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple†(Romans 16:17,18). This apostolic command could not be obeyed were it not right to judge. God wants us to know His Word and then test all teachers and teaching by it (remember the Bereans). The apostle John wrote, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (test, judge) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world†(1 John 4:1). We must judge by God’s Word, not by what appeals to human reasoning as many things seem good to human judgment but are false to the Word of God.
One of the most frequently quoted scriptures regarding judgment (and misapplied) is Matthew 7:1; “Judge not, that ye be not judgedâ€. Let’s read the entire passage – verse 1 through 5. Notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite and not to those who sincerely want to discern whether a teacher or teaching is true or false to God’s Word. It is not a prohibition against honest judgment but rather a solemn warning against hypocritical judgment. In fact, the last statement in verse 5 commands sincere judgment – “Then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother eyeâ€. If we take a verse or part of verse out of its setting, we can make the Word of God appear to teach the very opposite of what it really does teach (remember 2Peter). Many who piously quote, “Judge not†out of context in order to defend that which is false to God’s Word – do not see their own inconsistency in thus judging those who would obey God’s Word about judging that which is untrue to the Bible. It is tragic that so much that is anti-Scriptural has found undeserved shelter behind a misuse of this Scripture. The reason Christendom today is becoming paralyzed by Modernism frankly is because Christians have not obeyed the command of God’s Word to judge and separate from false teachers and false teaching. Physical health is maintained by separation from disease and germs. Spiritual health is maintained by separation from germs of false doctrine. The greatest peril of our day is not too much judging, but too little judging of spiritual falsehood.
Scripture does identify limitations of human judgment. Romans 14 tells us not to judge one’s eating habits (vegetarianism) as does 1 Cor. 10:23-33 (see also Col. 2:16,17). In 1 Cor. 4:1-5 we are told not to judge someone’s motives. Only God can peer into one’s heart and identify the motives that underlie their actions. And we are also not to judge who is saved. “The Lord knows those who are His†(2Tim 2:19). Again, only our Lord can see one’s true inner commitment.
I purposely concluded with the second chapter of 2 Timothy. Verses 15 through 26 provide some powerful instructions to the believer and can be directly associated to Monty’s second theme point –“don’t be of this world†or in more controversial language “biblical separationâ€. I would hope this group would undertake a comprehensive look at this biblical concept in the future. Maintaining Christ’s church as a home for those seeking a pure and true message is not just the responsibility of the pastor but one that must be the aspiration of the entire congregation.
A loving servant of Christ,
Tom Ward
“There’s no indication in the FOX story or any I’ve read that Centanni or Wiig were Christians. If they were, they probably would’ve said so.”
However did you reach that conclusion? Are we talking about Christianity (including Catholics, Methodists, Unitarians, Eastern Orthodox, Baptists, etc.) or “born again” Christians or equivalent?
I agree with Shade. Conversion must be in the heart.
As a long time atheist, I hope I would have the courage to die for my convictions. To accept the existence of any deity, even at gunpoint, would betray everything that I am.
Thank you to all who posted here. I greatly appreciated reading the posts of the deeply faithful Christians and Jews.
I also appreciated the post of the #98. Isn’t it about time feminists, whether they be conservative or liberal, Christian, Jewish, or non-religious start addressing the abomination that is the treatment of the female gender under the evil that is Islam?
I consider myself a Christian, conservative, feminist (in that order); however, even if I were an atheist, liberal I would never convert to such a loathesome religion. Pakistan is having trouble eliminating the Hudood rape laws that require a woman have four Muslim men testify as witnesses that she was raped. What 4 Muslim men stand around and watch a mother, sister, daugther, niece, friend raped, without stopping it?
I pray people stop accepting this evil in our midst.
Hey La Shawn,
If you ever get this far down the commenter list…. I think you right about not giving the murderer the satisfaction of even faking a conversion, that would give him control over me, and where would that end? Human cruelty knows no bounds.
It would sadden me deeply being separated from my wife and son, and no one knows how they would react when facing death (it’s not like we get to practice it). It is good to think and pray about it though, in case that day should ever arrive.
Paul said, “For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.”
How could I face my Savior if I denied Him before man? One day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
I would not deny Christ or my faith. Somehow God would give me the strength to handle this. I’m sure He would surround me with angels so I could concentrate on something other than a bullet or a sword swiftly killing me.
What you are asking La Shawn, is a valid question and it is one that we all should be asking ourselves, everyday.
But, the question has to go one step further. After each of asks ourselves “would you die for Him?” then we need to ask, “Did you die for him today?”
What does that mean? Simple. Did I let go of a part of me, did I let a part of me die that stood between me and Him.
To those of you here who are not Christians this may seem confusing, but, too often we who are Christians (especially hypocritical ones like me!!) can look at situations like the ones these reporters faced and spout something similar to what Peter said to Jesus about being true to Him forever (to which our Lord informed him that Peter would deny his relationship to Jesus 3 times the very next morning – which he did). We say these things knowing that we’ll probably never be put to that test.
Yet everyday an opportunity to deny ourselves some bit of sin for Him is ignored (when was the last time we turned off the TV and prayed!!) or we give into laziness instead of helping out at the church, at a charity, or merely personally helping some else in His name.
And before someone says it…in my own self I am guilty as charged.
I can’t fix yesterday, but what about tomorrow?
As a Christian, and a widower, I would say what I had to say to stay alive. To pretend to convert to Islam with the prospect of getting out alive is a small price to pay to if I get to be with my children again. My kids already lost one parent, I would not want leave them parentless.
JUDY – 113
I am also a Christian, Conservative, and appalled that the so-called ‘liberated’ females of this country can slough off the crimes against women which are committed around the world (and in our own neighborhoods) so long as the perpetrator of the crime is either against Christianity (the major opponent of on-demand abortion in the US,) anti-conservative (Republican and/or conservative judges may just be able to stop those 3rd term abortions,) and even anti-freedom (Muslim Shari’ah law because they oppose ‘Dubya’ and call him evil) The liberal female agendas have one thing on their minds -abortions for all, for any reason, at any time, and paid for by our tax dollars. It has not been about equal treatment since 1974.
Since I have never been in a life and death situation, I do not know if I could reject Islam and contend with a ghastly death after probable torture. I hope I would do the right thing but I am, after all, only human
“The fact that you are forced to renounce and convert at gunpoint, makes the renunciation and conversion a lie”
Yes! But what’s very interesting is that THEY (the Islamists) accept it as valid …
It really shows just how shallow the Islamic religion really is.
What deep cannot Islamic faith be, if all you have to do mouth some words at gunpoint to gain entry into it?
I was commenting this with my spouse yesterday. They’d have to kill me before I deny Christ as my savior or my religion.
This is a great discussion. Ever since I heard about Fabrizio Quattrocci
http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200404260831.asp
I wondered if I could have that kind of courage. He was not even given the option to convert to Islam but with death imminent at the hands of al Qaeda, he refused to kneel, pulled off his hood and said, “Now I’ll show you how an Italian dies.” He was shot in the back of the neck immediately after and al Jazeera refused to air it saying it was “too gruesome.” Yeah. Too gruesome for the morale of the primates who killed him.
Anyway, I just thought we could use an example of courage in the face of current Islamic savagery and to realize what honor there is in not giving in to it.
To deny your faith is a lie.
CHERYL H 119
Thing that gets ignored is that the imposition of anything like shariah law would put an end to things like abortion on demand, gay rights etc. There is nothing in the US way of life that would be same if that is not stopped from being imposed here.
To be on topic – I’ve written to the On the Record with Greta Van Susterren since Greg Centanni and Olaf Wiig will appear on it tonight.
I asked, as politely as I could, if they would be in danger for recanting. Did they recant? Had they held religious beliefs or lack of belief before this conversion? Did they pray towards Mecca today?
I thought that covered the points I was most interested in learning about.
La Shawn, I found you in townhall, and I must say that I’m glad I did. Thank you for posing the question. Maybe I’m not hanging out in the right places, but it is nice to see a civil discussion on Christianity and faith on the internet.
My videotape wouldn’t ever be shown because I would never convert, fake convert, or lie to save my skin. The truth is the truth, and I respect and love my Creator and Savior too much to deny the truth in my heart for either some whack job Islamo-fascist-terrorist or my next door neighbor. If they killed me, I would have life, and I am certain that God is big enough to care for my wife and children. Is there any greater testimony of faith than chosing death over denying Christ or converting from Christianity?
I pray for God’s Blessings to you all, Tucker
I have to agree with the writers who point out that one’s level of Christian growth may be the determining factor as to whether or not one would lie rather than die when faced with “forced” conversion to another faith.
Early on Peter denied knowing Jesus Christ three times.
Later on Peter requested that his murderers crucify him upside down as he felt he was not worthy to be crucified like his Lord.
Bottom line is that the survivors will be those who have the ability to clearly see good vs evil with unerring moral clarity and choose to fight evil wherever they encounter it.
There can be no other ending, you can talk about it all you like to little avail.
Reality, people.
.
I think, La Shawn, it would depend on what you understood a forced conversion to mean at the moment, and whether you understood the consequences after the forced conversion. To a Westerner, religious belief is a matter of free will. Under those circumstances, a Westerner might not think he was in fact renouncing his faith, because he was doing so under duress. Certainly our civil law assures is that, if we’re forced to do an act under duress, our conduct doesn’t count. Thus, one could readily envision a Westerner doing a mental “finger cross” — “Dear God, you know that my complete faith and belief rests with you. I’m just mouthing these meaningless words because there is a gun pointed at me. In my heart of heart, where my true faith lies, nothing has changed.” To me — and I’m not a religious person — I could accept this as a valid step to preserve my life. After all, in the Jewish religious tradition, Orthodox Jews are allowed to give up keeping kosher if there is a famine. In a way, it’s the same — it recognizes the faith of the heart, versus the need to live.
Having said all that, it turns out that converting to Islam isn’t just a matter of mouthing some words. Instead, it places you under Islam’s aegis, whether you want to be there or not. If you violate Islamic law, any energized Muslim can haul you before sharia court for appropriate punishment (which somehow always seems to be whipping, eye gouging, hand removal, or beheading). If, free from the gun’s point, you acknowledge that you never gave up your faith, you can be killed as an apostate.
So, I guess I’d end by saying that, to save his life, a good Christian, Jew, Hindu, whatever, would not be running afoul of his God by mouthing meaningless words. However, doing so might just defer the death sentence to another day.
Regarding the comment by LousieB on the Columbine Shooting: I know the Grandparents of that girl (Cassie Bernal)who told the killers she believed in God. She said yes. They killed her. THEN they yelled, “WHY?” She is a martyr. Regardless of my role in life as a wife, mother, daughter, friend…I would die for my faith in Jesus Christ, no question. I believe we all have a purpose in life. I also believe, the timing and circumstances of death, though tragic, can have purpose. Cassie’s mother wrote a book called “She Said Yes.” Her Grandparents travel with a school program called Attitude Check and share the Columbine story with teens all over the world. Cassie’s death had purpose.
I am myself an atheist. However, I am going to say something that I bet even Steve Centanni wouldn’t admit to in front of his press corps buddies. Don’t get me wrong, I have the highest respect for Christianity. Frankly, I have no idea why he felt he had to say he has respect for Islam. If he was a member of any other religion, he should be apologizing to the religion he renounced. That is who he likely to have offended, not the Islamic tyrants who compelled him to convert under threat of death.
So even though I am not a spiritual, and I would actually have no problems with lying about anything to Muslims holding me captive, including anything they wanted me to say about God, I would never convert to Islam. So why would I be willing to die, if I don’t believe in God? Simple: because I believe that much in the correctness of the cause of what is left of the freedom loving west, and the wrongness of the cause of radical Islam. Why is it so clear to me, and so confusing to so many others?
As an agnostic leaning towards some form of deism I would not hesitate to ‘convert’. At least afterward when I was free, I could immediately condem Islam thereby becoming an apostate. I would then have some chance of getting a few of them before they got to me and performed their duty under Islam.
If I’m going to hell I want an honor guard.
It’s certainly a good question, LaShawn… and one that it eerily reminiscent of a scene that was described from the pulpit of the church I attend. I believe the story was from the book “Jesus Freaks”, but I can’t verify that (not having a copy of it).
Apparently, there was a missionary and his family in Vietnam, who were captured there, and made to dig the grave that they were going to fall into when they were shot. The missionary was singing hymns and praying, willing to be martyred for his faith… and one of his children broke away and ran off into the jungle.
What disturbed me the most about this wasn’t that he was willing to die for what he believed in… it was that, at the demand of their captors, he called the child back to the graveside, asking the child to trust in God.
He called his own child to certain death. Martyrdom is one thing… it’s a personal choice. But when you get your children killed on behalf of your personal faith?
I think I see similar attitudes here in people who proclaim that God will look after their children if they are martyred, so they’d never “convert”.
That story represents (for me at least) a significant stumbling block that has turned me away from believing in the Christian God.
john 124
Those are good questions. I would also ask if they have had their families relocated by the FBI or New Zealands counterpart. Recanting publicly while still in a Muslim country would be letting go of the Ax. When they were praising Islam, they were still surrounded by Islamic guards. I can only feel sorry for the situation they found themselves in and am glad they are still alive. They will have to make peace with their God. I dont for a minute believe that their wives, sisters, daughters will put up with burkahs.
Three points to make, then my answer to La Shawn’s question.
1- “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. – Matthew 10:32,33 (Thanks to post #22 for pointing it out first);
2- In reference to the claim that God knows our hearts, and that words are meaningless: With your words, if you “convert”, you are still acknowledging their god (an idol, really, even if there isn’t a statue or graven image), which in and of itself is a rejection of God;
3- Several commenters have said that the added detail of a gun in their face causes them at least pause (if not capitulation) — what do you fear more, the gun or God??
Now for my answer. If I was faced with this situation, or one of circumstances far more severe, I would, regardless of consequence to myself or others (even children, family, presidents, etc.), I would look them in the eye, call their prophet a liar, thief, and pedophile (all three accurate descriptions), ridicule their allah as so weak that it resorts to murder of women and children in cafes and busses to fight its enemies, and proclaim YHWH, the Mighty One of Israel and King of the Universe (His creation), as the only one I serve.
Some day, those of us who truly serve Him will be told that we cannot buy or sell. Imagine living in the United States right now if you could not use money. That means you can’t buy your house, buy food, pay taxes, buy clothes, or even purchase a hunting or fishing license. What would your children do then? You have to eat, surely He understands that we have to survive, right? It doesn’t matter what He told us in His Word, He would understand, right? These are extraordinary circumstances, they void everything He has said, right?
Be Strong, Be Strong, and Be Strengthened!
He made that statement while still in Gaza, with Palestinian security all round. I’d be interested to see what he said after he got over the border to Israel, or better yet back to the States. On the other hand, he may never really be safe. If he speaks out against Islam, he can be considered an apostate, and marked for death.
I pray that I never have to find out what I’d do, but I hope that if that cup were handed me, I would have the strength to look my captors square in the eye and tell them that I will never renounce my Savior. The older I get, the easier I think that would be, because I have less life in this body for them to take from me.
A hard question, to be sure. I think of this often, as being a military person in the Reserve, I have to know beforehand what choices I will make should the Islamists capture me on the field of battle and make demands.
As an LDS person (”Mormon”) I would want to emulate Joseph Smith, who was shot to death for his faith; ironically by other Christians who considered the “Mormon” doctrine to be heretical. When push came to shove, Joseph chose the hard road.
I must admit, however, that choosing death, rather than mouthing a few quick words of “conversion”, would make me very sad for my family. I would hate to strand my daughter as a fatherless girl in this world. I have no doubt my wife would carry on, as she is iron-willed and strong. But daughters without fathers invariably suffer a range of problems; and it would hurt, knowing that by keeping my faith in Christ I would be condemning my daughter to extra hardship.
Of course, what better example could I give, as a Christian, than to die upholding my faith? Better, I guess, for my daughter to know that Daddy kept his faith in his Lord, even though Daddy is a sinner and a fool and has often been a poor servant of Christ in many other ways. I guess I’d rather go out getting this one, BIG question correct, and give my daughter the example, than live on trying to explain (to her, to myself, to the Lord) why I wavered at the moment of truth.
Again, a hard question, that hopefully nobody on this Blod will ever have to face!
This question came to my mind too.
My greatest fear would be to deny Christ. Not for loss of salvation, for as you said, that is settled once someone receives Christ as Savior.
But to think that I could, in a moment of fear and weakness, betray and deeply hurt the One who loves me so much and that I love? That is my greatest fear.
#133–to Barry.
I can see why from a materialistic viewpoint the story would upset you, though I don’t know what you mean by “the Christian God.” What you seem to mean, Barry, is that you don’t like the way that particular Christian displayed his faith in God. Perhaps he was wrong. But is that God’s fault? And perhaps he was right: who should we fear more, those who can destroy the body, or Him who has power over both body and spirit? Or, from a materialist viewpoint, death in the jungle would be a worse for the child than death at the hands of his captors. And for all we know, the story was not even true. It may merely have been told to you as an example. I hope that this story will not continue to separate you from God.
As to La Shawn’s question: it IS difficult. I am a terrible physical coward, which unfortunately implies a degree of moral cowardice as well. I hope and pray that I am never faced with such a situation. But if I ever am, I hope and pray that God will grant me the courage to do as he wills. And that’s really all anyone can say.
I believe that, if you convert to Islam, Your children are automatically Muslim. If they attempt to apostate, they are then eligible for the Islamic death penalty.
These newsmen probably now have an Islamic obligation to beat their wives into submission.
I believe these two reporters may have unknowingly visited a massive problem on their wives and children.
You know, I thought the same thing when I read of the reporters’ account…I’d like to think I would stand, by the sheer grace of God. But the heart is deceitfully wicked–who can know it?
Lots to think about…it’s about love, I guess. and love is laying down your life for your friend…Jesus…or in the mother’s case above…laying down her life for children…who are the least of these our brethren, and when we’ve done it unto them, we’ve done it unto Him. I pray my love would not run cold, and I’d pour it out for Him. I try to lay it down every day now for practice for that day, should it come. But in the end, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. No condemnation! His blood was either enough, or it wasn’t.
This story brings Christians to a very fervent question that they haven’t had to face on a potentially massive scale. It’s the question of “Are we ready to die to keep our faith.” The idea of renouncing faith in God, and being converted at gunpoint is repugnant. What disturbs me are Christians who say they would have to think about denying their faith or staying alive. If someone has to think about this question , then I suggest that they would be better taking karate class on Sunday mornings.
“Later on Peter requested that his murderers crucify him upside down as he felt he was not worthy to be crucified like his Lord.”
This sort of thing is what scares some people away from religion Maureen. This is radical stuff.
It is your responsibility to your family and friends, people, to give a thief or a nut holding a gun to your head what he wants; your wallet or a demand to repeat some words that will make him feel good about his beliefs for heaven sake.
Anything more would be making you act about as radical as the nut holding a gun to your head.
Afraid of losing to emotion the ability to think and reason logically.
I skipped down after #64 – people who do that annoy me so I promise I’ll read the rest later, but I have to go now and I want to add this:
Several commenters mentioned the futility of talking with unbelievers about subjects like this. I could not agree more. Instapundit has some links about Muslim assimilation in America. The author of the original article thought Muslims were “unassimilated” because when asked whether they would choose Islam or America, a vast majority chose Islam. A commenter on the article pointed out that most Christians would answer the same way (choosing Christianity over America) but we do not consider them unassimilated.
To even ask the question reveals a vast gulf of ignorance. Hmm. Let me think. My eternal soul or a transient political regime? That’s a tough one.
La Shawn, we disagree on many things but conversations like this one are why I keep coming back. Keep up the excellent work.
I’m not sure which appeals to me less: a religion which recruits at gun-point, or one which teaches me to prefer death to an obviously coerced, insincere renunciation.
I couldn’t walk away and read to the end. Amazing conversation. Thanks everyone!
I am Jewish. In Judaic law, for the sake of saving a life, your own or another’s, it is permissible to break any commandment except for three: 1) murder 2) adultery and 3) idolatry. Against those three sins, you must choose death. Hence, anyone putting a gun to my head or knife to my neck to convert to Islam will only get one response from me “Shema Yisroel Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad!”
La Shawn, this is a good one!!!
What comes to mind is the phrase, “As for me & my house, we will serve the Lord”. Lord knows I’m not the stellar example as I pathetically struggle everyday to be Christlike.
But in the scenario you pose, this would indeed be the big one! I’d have to decline their invitation to convert and trust that God will take care of any legacy I leave behind, i.e wife & kids.
Regarding the ‘Jesus Freak’ comment, the logical conclusion would be that the missionary made the right choice to call the escaping child back to certain death and certain glory with Christ, than risk the kid losing both his life and soul later. Meaning, where could the kid ultimately escape to? Eventually he would be caught and potentially not killed outright, but raised in an heathen environment, thereby eventually dying in sin and losing his soul.
As a missionary kid in Africa, I’ve known plenty of Christian converts who were persecuted for their apostacy. Muslims don’t play around, nor will they long tolerate the unsubmissive.
As others have pointed out, in the Islamic world, once a Muslim, always a Muslim and by extension your family as well. In saving their lives, these journalists condemned their family to apotasy, should they believe anything else.
Sidenote: Now that they’ve, as well as Jill Carroll, declared their faith, will the MSM question their bias, as they would a Christian Journalist? Did they not declare the Palestinians to be full of love & warmth, lacking only the compassion and understanding of the Western World? The same people who would gladly sacriface their kids with a homicide belt, if it means one more dead or maimed Israeli? Methinks regardless of their clarifications to follow, I’d be skeptical of their reporting on any subject.
But I digress.
Easy enough to pooh-pooh the risk now. But what if 20 years from now, we find ourselves (ole USA) partialy or at least substantially Islamicized, with Shariah as an accepted alternative justice system in tandem with our traditional system. Then again, maybe this threat is what Revelations is relating…. Unable to buy or sell without the mark of the beast, what came out of Babylon.
Would the Supreme Court defer to the ‘wisdom’ of Sharia dictats and allow Mrs. Centanni to be punished for apotasy? Of course they would, just as international precedent was blithely recognized by Justice Kennedy last year as a ’smackdown’ to Bush.
The nutroots and progressives cheered his open-mindedness then, they’ll rue his opening that Pandora’s Box tomorrow when Islam goes after their cherished articles of faith with the full weight of law behind the religion of piece by piece. Especially when the charge is apostasy because some feminist is actually a muslim because her father converted, or some other Islamic rationalization.
Hint to the naiive. Ever wonder why victims of Islam rarely get Western Justice in Euroland? Because as soon as the authorities find out they’re dealing with Muslims, the case gets dropped. The same will happen here and to a degree, already has in regions with heavy Muslim occupation like Dearborn, MI et al.
History is replete with examples of countries where once Islam is given equal footing, Islam takes over completely unless at some point the inhabitants rout them out. Likewise with the mosques.
I once read somewher that 20 or 30 years ago, about 15% of the US mosques were Wahhabi, the rest being secularly moderate, now the inverse is true, even tho the overall count of mosques have increased 10-fold. Now that’s scary.
In any case, at the current rate of infiltration (population-wise), it won’t be long before the passive have been totally assimilated by these wahhabist ‘Borgs’.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Islam is the Spawn of Satan. And that roaring lion is hungrily pacing, seeking whomever to devour. Words and intent means nothing if the net gain is yet another soul bound for hell.
Ciao
Actually, if you deny Christ it is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Only sins agains the father and the son are fogiven according to Christ. The reason “once saved, always saved” came about is simple: early protestant reformers wanted to do away with the heirarchy, (hence the whole priesthood of followrs bit). The philosophy was that if someone had differing views on what the Bible meant, they were obviously damned.
Every being is given free will, including the Angels. The difference between us and the Angels is best understood through Lucifer. When the Angels were created they were given a choice: serve God or not. Lucifer upon his first instance of creation denyed God. Humans on the other hand can deny God and accept God at will. What matters is what you believe when you die. If you go to your death denying God then you will in fact go to Hell. If you convert upon your last breath you will be saved. Those who never officially accept Jesus through words can be saved by their actions on Earth. Once saved, always saved only works if you believe in Calvinist predestination.
Evil thought. (And not meant seriously … but…)
Given that these Islamonazis wanna play ‘forced conversion’?
How ’bout someone gets a fire hose ( super-soaker, whatever) and baptise them ‘againt their will’.
(Yah – I know it doesn’t work like that. But the question is – do THEY know it? Or would these sudden ‘apostate’ facists have to execute themselves? )
I think the only people who are struck by this are Christians. As a Christian there is nothing more frightening to me than having to face God after denying Christ. Christians know that it’s much more than a matter of convert. The Bible says that Christians will be persecuted for their beliefs. Those of us who went to Sunday School were told stories of martyrs and learned we may be faced with death for our belief in Christ. Most of us thought that was something that happened back in the Bible days, or during the Holy Wars, but not now. We were wrong.
When I read that they were forced to accept Islam at gunpoint I was struck with grief for their souls. I am not saying I wouldn’t have done what they did. I hope I wouldn’t. I don’t think I would. The fear of God is much greater than the fear of terrorists for a true Christian. We are all human, however.
Still, when I think of being faced with such a decision, denying Christ scares me more than being killed by a terrorist. That may seem like lip service to some, but it’s how I feel in my heart. I would not deny Him.
Wow, 152 comments:
Hey La Shawn is that a record for you?
This topic has struck a nerve.
I applaud you for starting it.
One thing I’ve learned. Being a Christian is not easy. Is it supposed to be easy?
Thanks, Glam.
The record is 623 comments for the Election Night live-blogging post:
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2004/11/02/election/
Hi La Shawn,
I posted on this before seeing your post. Did you know that the idea of Centanni and Wiig “converting” to Islam was suggested to their kidnappers by Canon White, the head of a Christian organisation?
I’ve been thinking about that. I am mulling a lot of things over about this.
>>What disturbs me are Christians who say they would have to think about denying their faith or staying alive. If someone has to think about this question , then I suggest that they would be better taking karate class on Sunday mornings.>>
So…church on Sundays is just for the perfect? If one admits to being imperfect, we should stop attending services since there is no hope? I don’t think so. I think there are those of us who recognize that the spirit may be willing, but the flesh is weak and trust in God for His final perfect justice, whatever it may be. I really don’t believe that God is a “gotcha” supreme being.
By the way – one thing not addressed…the post states “with a gun pointed at your head”. If you make the choice to accept death instead of convert, a shot to the head would be a quick and easy death. We all know they have much more terrible ways that realistically might make the choice still more difficult.
There isn’t a single thing I wouldn’t say to get myself out of a situation like this. There are things I would never do, to be certain. But if all you’re doing is just talking the talk, what do you have to prove?
I understand the idea of not “letting them win” and standing by your principles with dignity. But if it’s just words, have they really won? In fact, I think I would find some humor in what a hollow victory they got. “I said ‘Praise Allah’ and they let me walk. Idiots.”
I suppose if we accept that God is an unyielding deity who holds us to our words, then we have a problem. But I was created in the Lord’s image. I take this to mean that, like me, God has reason and compassion and even a sense of humor.
I like to think that, faced with a similar situation, I could say whatever my captors wanted, while giving God a little wink in the form of a prayer. And God would watch on, thinking “He said ‘Praise Allah and they let him walk. Idiots.”
What does this verse mean? “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.” (Matthew 6::25) To me, it means that being willing to die for your belief in the name of Jesus is to truly be living for Him. And it means that life apart from Christ is not really life at all. I am not saying that God will not forgive me should I stumble, even in this regard, but that should not be an excuse to intend to stumble.
I think that this is a very important question and like all important questions, it is best answered now, before the trial comes so that you are ready with a response should you need one.
I know that this does not make much sense to some of the folks who have responded. But to think that words are meaningless and that you can say whatever helps you survive a certain situation with impunity is to deny the power of the scriptures. The Bible says that words do matter, there are several quotes in the above discussion that affirm that. But I know that the reasoning that dying to honor God is preferable to living a lie is foolishness to some. I, would choose to join the martyrs that have gone before us, rather than live, my prayer is that in the event that choice has to be made, whether it be at the hand of some deranged child like happened at Columbine, or at the hand of a fanatic of Islam, the Holy Spirit would empower me to do what I in my flesh am too weak to accomplish.
That is why the Lord made mountains too high for us to climb, so that when we reach the summit we know that it was not by our power or grace that it was accomplished.
In the meantime, we can live our lives in affirmation of who we are in Christ, without shame, because we are not all called to die for Him, but we are all called to live for Him.
Trish (139) wrote:
“I can see why from a materialistic viewpoint the story would upset you, though I don’t know what you mean by “the Christian God.—
By that, I mean God as described by the fundamentalist evangelical Christian clergy at the church I attend, drawing from the Bible to reinforce their inerrantist, literalist interpretation of the Bible. Clearer, perhaps, but not shorter. A God represented by them as treating child sacrifice (in this instance) as a virtue, while at the same time condemning Molech worshippers as horribly evil.
“What you seem to mean, Barry, is that you don’t like the way that particular Christian displayed his faith in God. Perhaps he was wrong. But is that God’s fault?”
If the religion calls that sort of decision righteous and just, and the religion is supposed to be based entirely on the Word of God (which seems to support this), then how is it not God’s fault?
“And perhaps he was right: who should we fear more, those who can destroy the body, or Him who has power over both body and spirit? Or, from a materialist viewpoint, death in the jungle would be a worse for the child than death at the hands of his captors.”
I allow for the distinct possibility that the child could have escaped to freedom. It is one thing to choose willingly to die for one’s beliefs… I can see that as virtuous. To me, it is entirely another thing to sacrifice your children (leading them to imminent and certain death) for your beliefs.
I find this morally repugnant in the same way that child sacrifice by Molech worshippers was repugnant, as was act of parents poisoning their children at Guayana, and for the same reason that I find it repugnant that a Christian Scientist would deny their child life-saving medicine in favor of prayer.
IMO, the child’s life is not the parent’s to give… and a religion that encourages such sacrifice is, in my opinion, entirely inconsistent with the notion of an all-loving, all-powerful perfect God who commits no evil.
Do you see a parent sacrificing their child due to the parent’s religious beliefs as virtuous?
I could decide for myself to die in support of my beliefs, and see that as noble. I cannot see my making such a decision on behalf of an unwilling child to be the same.
I’ve read the book Jesus Freaks by dc Talk and The Voice of the Martyrs. I’ve often wondered what it would be like to face that kind of decision. I pray that I would stand strong and God would strengthen me, but I don’t know. It doesn’t take a super saint to die for God. It does however take strong faith. I pray every day for that kind of faith.
Also, if I were a mother who had children and was faced with that kind of decision, I would want to leave my children a legacy they could look up to. I read of a child who told his father that he did not want a traitor for a father. This young boy (I think he was 10) was killed for his father’s preaching in Indonesia. He did not want his father to deny Christ though. I believe that God takes especial care of children of martyrs. I would what my children to see me live my faith like that. Jim Elliot and the men with him left behind wives and children and all their families to preach the Gospel of Christ. If He calls us to it, we’ll be able to stand.
I would say no and lose my life. You can’t deny your faith falsely. Think about that little girl @ columbine who got shot and killed by those guys because she said she believes in Christ.
My child is old enough to make that decision. I hope my decision would convey what I thought was best.
If it had been my child that was younger, and had run into the jungle I would not have called them back. For someone that young, they understood the terrain around them better than people and what lies the oppressors would have told them. The chance of survival from the jungle would be there and the child would remember the choice I had made against the oppressors.
I beg to disagree regarding the child running away into the jungle. Children don’t survive the jungle a la Tarzan or mogli. If the child somehow eluded capture, the odds of finding shelter with friendlies was remote, more likely to be ‘devoured’ by the jungle. I think a shot to the would be preferable to torn apart.
I recall a missionary friend whose son was killed by a croc in Africa. Also, many a missionary family were martyred by the communist backed Mau-maus and other ‘gangs’. Ya’ll should read up on these stories.
The WWJD crowd can’t even hold a candle to the travails of Good News bearers and their fruits over the past century and half, from Peking to Delhi, to Narobi. From the jungles of Asia, Africa & South America, to even in our own ‘backyard’ in the ghettoes with gangs (Tom Skinner/Nicky Cruz) or on the plains, witnessing to Indians.
Speaking of Indians, think back on our own wild west where even secular pioneer families would rather the family fight to the death than risk Indians capturing their kids during attacks.
I’ll restate my earlier comment from yesterday. Better the child be killed as a believer than risk him being raised by the ungodly, losing both life and soul in the end.
I also feel for the predicament of parents of young children. The verses about “woe to them that are burdened with child in those days of tribulation” come to mind. I’ve often thot, over the years, about whether I should even risk starting a family if indeed we’re living in the end times. But here I am now with 4 young uns and I can only be like Peter, trying to walk on water amidst a raging storm.
Ciao
Like many, when I first read about how these men had denied Christ, of course I thought about Matt 10:32-33. But later I remembered Peter doing the same thing, not once but three times. How great is God’s grace. Our Lord knows the terror and fear that these men were probably feeling and even though it may seem to us (saved and forgiven sinners)that Satan won this round. We know that God will use this in some way to further His will and glorify Himself. In the meantime, we should pray for these two and their families and thank God that we were not the ones being tested.
Matt 10:33
33 “But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
(NAS)
2 Tim 2:12
12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;
(NAS)
Personally, I’d have to say that one who would deny Christ to escape death may not have a “saving” faith to begin with. The proof of our “works” is do they endure when they are tested with fire. I agree with Shawn about “once saved, always saved,” but I also believe that the American Church preaches a prosperity Gospel that is different from the Biblical one. “Come to Christ and all your problem are gone.” I’ve even heard Preachers say that Christians are undergoing persecutuion around the world due to a lack of faith by them.
Simple truth. Christ promised that following Him would result in persecution and possibly death. Not that it might happen, but that it will happen. And we are told that we must endure through them. Guess it boils down to a question of what is greater, your faith or love of the world.
Andy: What if the child were taken and indoctrinated in the RoP instead of being shot? Would that be better than than them trying to escape and likely dieing, but dieing with their faith intact?
Will: I didn’t see anywhere where the two men mentioned any faith they may have had. If they were not Christian they did not deny Christ. All we know for sure, that I have seen, is that they did convert to Islam. Despite that quote about ‘no coercion in religion’ apparently conversion due to a gun held to the head is acceptable and not coercive.
John, without time to get into details, I think one can lose his faith and fall from Grace:
–Deny Christ, He denies you
–Blaspheming the Holy Ghost is unforgiveable, and which of the Trinity is the one who reaches the heart? To grow up in the ROP or any other false religion, including communism — IIRC, that child was killed by communists in SE Asia — is to grow away from God and offending the HG.
–Peter is a poor example of’denying’ Christ. For one, Jesus hadn’t yet died for Peter’s sin. Until then, they were all practicing Jews, not Christians, even Christ observed the basic principles of Judaism while criticizing the add-on fluff and legalism expounded by the Sadduces & Pharisees.
–Stephen was stoned for his faith in Acts by Saul of Tarsus
–Peter said “Better to obey God than man when told to stop preaching and was taken to court
Paul & Barnabas thrown in jail multiple times for preaching
–all the Apostles were killed for their faith
–Christians thrown in the coluseum to be destroyed for sport
–The Bible is replete with examples of Believers persecuted for their faith
–The Bible is replete with OT examples of standing fast for God Jehovah
–Jesus’ cousin, John the Baptist was the 1st to be beheaded for ‘tormenting’ King Herod.
–Jump forward to the 20th Century. Thousands of Chinese belivers persecuted by Red China. Granted, they also persecuted Buddhist, Falong Gongist and anyone else who didn’t toe the line per Mao’s little book
–Thousands of believers sent to the gulag by the USSR for their faith
–Thousands of African believers killed by Muslims in Nigeria, Chad, Ivory Coast etc
–Thousands of African Christians killed for not supporting tribal purges in Rwanda, Sierria Leone, Liberia, etc
–Thousands of African Christians killed by communists in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Angola etc
Would one say the above were foolish and should have mouthed the words, insted of needlessly tossing their lives?
Be not decieved, Satan’s goal is to take as many as he can with him. If it means lulling them with a false sense of security of ‘once saved, always saved’, then he’s all for it.
The point the Bible is making with that notion is that no one, nor Satan and his minions can drag you from God’s hands. However, if you go willingly, all bet’s are off as to whether you can consciously return to God before you die in your sins.
Does anyone really think that that child could grow up talking the antichrist talk and not walk it? To grow up as a closet believer? Hah! Satan would ensure that this child became one of his most bloodthirsty agents, hardening his heart bit by bit.
Bottomline, God will always accept the returning Prodigal. But note the conditional “returning“. One has to make the decision to return to the Father, IOW REPENT! The Father isn’t going out to search and rescue the Prodigal.
Again, it is the Holy Spirit that brings in the sheep. That’s why I find it improbable that the child, once saved, could keep his soul amidst evil.
Which brings me to mind about Paul’s admonition about babes in Christ who can only handle the ‘milk’ are vulnerable to false teachings and thus led astray. Growing up surrounded by evil, I find it inconceiveable tht the child could grow in Christ without sustenance. But even if he did, sooner or later he’d have to stand up to be counted. If it’s the same group that killed his parents, I’d think his death would be the harsher dor it given his betrayal of them.
To me, you can’t live for anything, if you aren’t willing to die for it. Again, what’s so bad about shucking this mortal clay vassal and going to be with the Lord — if and when threatened with your life or your faith?
‘Siyo Friends,
Many thoughts shared, the forced conversion thing has cause & effect. The enemy now has us discussing ‘our’ faiths/beliefs etc. and ‘our’ loyalties, in self reflection, we’re not giving ‘our’ enemy a closer ‘inspection’. Islam is not the religion of peace as our spineless government with supporting main SCREAM media continuously report, read/research – please. We’ve seen the enemy, for over 50yrs (I say that because of my age, for my entire life I’ve watched the nightly news and heard the constant chants of ‘Death to America’!)
The Twins Towers fell, while our enemy chanted ‘Death to America’.
I stand and fight for the Declaration Of Independence, Bill Of Rights and The Constitution Of This Union. Without these there is no…?
We’ve seen the enemy and it ain’t US! nine eleven comes twice daily on my clock reminding me.
I Spread Lies And Misery = ISLAM
Bear
Andy wrote:
“Again, what’s so bad about shucking this mortal clay vassal and going to be with the Lord — if and when threatened with your life or your faith?”
And again, if you want to make that choice *for yourself*, I’m fine with it. I have immense respect for Amish folks who have been willing to accept beatings even unto death without renouncing their non-violence, and can think of many instances where it would seem noble to die for your own beliefs.
Andy also wrote:
“Better the child be killed as a believer than risk him being raised by the ungodly, losing both life and soul in the end.”
Here is where it seems to go cult-like to me.
Consider a parallel scenario to the one outlined by LaShawn. A whole group of families have been kidnapped by terrorists. One by one, parents are brought up and the gun is held to the head of their children, not their own head. The terrorists demand that the parents convert to Islam by saying their words.
You’ve already seen some of them agree to do so, and both the parents and children have been released and have gone free. You’ve also seen that some have refused, and the children were tortured and shot, but the parents were released to freedom.
Now it’s your turn. Do you let your children be executed to avoid saying some set of words that the terrorists want you to say?
Is your pride worth the cost of your children’s lives? Could a God that wouldn’t forgive this act be considered truly good?
To me, this is a much more extreme form of the kind of thing that happened with POWs in VietNam, who were made to tape denunciations of the U.S. They did what they needed to in order to be set free. It’s a despicable practice on the part of the captors, but I can’t hold it against them or take the “confessions” as legitimate.
(to prevent confusion, by “can’t hold it against them”, I meant “can’t hold it against the prisoners”.)
oh, barry, barry, barrrrrrry.
well, now you’ve gone and done it: opened a whole can of worms; and this thread is gonna go on forever.
Loren is right.
Never mind the Stockholm syndrome. I call this scenario the Centanni syndrome.
“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish that you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth.†– Revelation 3:15-16
Barry,
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.”
The notion that we can only speak for ourselves and not our children is a modernist and emotional take. When I talk about children, I’m referring to those of an age where they depend on parents to sustain them. In that case, parents are fully responsible for their well-being and if necessary in the scenario you provide their death. This is not being “cult-like” This is being pragmatic.
The point of the threat is to get you to recant by leveraging the child. We don’t have any examples from the Bible of such a scenario, but using our God-given wisdom, it is not a stretch to see that the parent has to make the life or death decision. Trying to save a neck at the expense of denying God would be the wrong answer.
Note how in the OT, time and time again, someone who rebeled against God also had His wrath/justice visted upon his household and belongings. Think of the time when those who revolted against Moses/God were made to stand on one side and the earth swallowed them all up. Or when fighting the enemises, being commanded to kill everyone, including lifestock and destroy possesions. Those who disobeyed and took spoils wound up condemning their entire household to death.
Extreme? Not at all. As been mentioned before by others, it’s hard to discuss spiritual matters with those who can’t understand it in the first place.
Put it this way, if one believes in an afterlife, then the physical life is just a stage before the ultimate destiny. Those who don’t will veiw this life as the ultimate.
Furthermore, “fairness” or “goodness” is but a frame of reference to morality. Morality does not exist in a vacuum. Someone has to define it. If one believes in a creator, then naturally, it is that creator who defines morality and has coded it into our DNA. Those believers who try to redefine God’s morality down to some modernist feel-good-ism do so at their risk — that goes for many of the so-called mega-churches who are growth-oriented rather than Christ-oriented (God wants you to have the good life, blah, blah and other nonsuch cushy twaddle, while ignoring or downplaying the other attributes of God that seemeth harsh in their eyes).
Atheist define their morality based on what they like or don’t like about the creator’s predefined morality. They have no innate morality in and of themselves.
Now you can accuse me of trying to impose Christianity, but you’ll miss the point. For all you know, I could have been arguing for Buddhism in the last couple of paragraphs, or arguing for pagans. The point is whatever your belief system, it will shape your view of your relationship to your ‘higher being’. Therefore, any belief system’s views on life & death and the bounds of morality will be incomphrensible to outsiders, moreso for atheists who believe in Nothing But Themselves as the supreme higher being.
Out of time, gotta go
Great thread — when one reads Barry and Andy the distinction becomes clear as to a belief basis grounded on life as being self-contained within the physical body versus life being greater than the physical. How does one describe a sunrise to a blind person? Each persons understanding is limited by their experience. I have traveled back and forth from atheist, agnostic, new-age metaphysical, in and out of Christianity, studied Islam, Judism,
Hindu, Buddist .. constantly seeking spirituality and wisdom. Living too much in this world without thought or understanding of the next.
So how does one explain the peace in the heart that comes from a growing relationship with Christ? Living this life is like being a small boat tossed on a rough sea. Knowing Christ is having a sense of stillness within even as that boat ruthlessly bounces. A deeper relationship with Christ means that sense of peace, stillness becomes so much larger than that tossing about that one perceives the rough sea as insignificant.
For Barry — maybe you should go watch the Usual Suspects — and emulate Kiaser Sosay(?) — when the wife and children are held hostage by bandits and threatened — Kiaser Sosay shoots his own children and wife — so show these bandits that he is a man of stronger will.
As for me, I work every day to try to completely surrender my life to Christ. There is a story about a very pious, religious man who also made this his life goal. When he was in his late seventies he said he had managed to work up to 30 seconds a day in which the surrender was pure. He spent the rest of the day much like the rest of us — consumed only with only our own being.
Part of what I’m wondering here is how to balance the secular realities of life today, in our society, with the positions that a person’s religion may dictate to them (and by proxy, to their children).
Religious freedom is not absolute in the US. There’s a *reason* that parents aren’t allowed to sacrifice their children just because their religion dictates that they should. We treat the children as individuals who have rights beyond their parent’s decisions.
A modern-day Molech worshipper who wanted to burn their child to death on a heated statue would be prohibited from doing so… not because Molech is considered a false god, but because the practice of child sacrifice is ethically abhorrent no matter who does it.
Do you think child sacrifice to avoid offending Yahweh should be considered OK in our society?
There are militant Islamists who believe that their religious beliefs should trump the laws of any society… and that is why the imposition of sharia law is such a lynchpin of their terror campaigns. I think that’s wrong, because it denies some people basic human rights that might be in conflict with the religion.
Do you believe Christian beliefs should likewise trump the laws of any society, including our own… if that means some Christian parents get to deny basic human rights to their own children?
(As an aside, I have to wonder about anyone who chooses the character Keyser Söze as a moral exemplar…)
Barry, you confuse and blend the difference between …”my God demands it of me, therefore I must voluntarily sacrifice my child” vs “…reject your God or I kill your child”.
Plus you’re getting into a game of lifeboat. I don’t really care to go there. But to amuse you, let’s turn your scenario around. You and your four kids are treading water, two of which can swim. You also have only one preserver. Do you sacrifice the baby to save the older who can’t swim, or do you condemn the older to death to save the baby? Scenarios can be ginned up ad nauseum.
The main question is not what you would do, it’s what are your guiding principles that you’d rely on when faced with any flavor of life or death issues.
The reason we aren’t allowed to sacrifice our kids in America is rooted in the Judeo-Christian morality of our founding. Even our founding fathers were well aware of the Islamic “morality” and the eventual threat to our freedoms, that we take for granted, if left unchecked. Ever hear of the Barbary pirates and our navy sent to battle them?
We tried to negotiate with the Islamofascist then in the 18th century and when the Islamofascist refused, citing their “morality” demanded that they attack our ships, we blasted them.
The reason our founding fathers decided on a neutural approach to religion is precisely because of what one religion might dictate or try to to another. At the same time, they codified the basic tenets of the Judeo-Christian morals into our laws without going into doctrine. Progressives misinterpret the avoidance of codifying doctrine as “separation of Church and State” when the truth is far from it.
Example, Puritans would try and kill anyone suspected of being a witch. That practice was banned by our founding, even tho the Puritans were Christians as were the Baptists etc. On the other hand, JW and other sects can deny life-saving medical treatment. But no one can delibrately kill another for rasons of faith. Likewise, Mormons were forced to give up polygamy, which can be pointed to as an example of the gov’t denying one the librety to practice their faith.
What the FF were saying is that while we’ll implement Judeo-Christian principles of morality as a code of law, we’ll draw the line at legalizing doctrinal principles that impign on one’s personal life & liberty.
That said, introducing Sharia as a co-equal rule of law would be contrary to the FF’s intent.
Otherwise, they would have said, “Fine, in Puritan communities, they may be subject to our laws, but they’ll also be subject to Puritan laws and where there’s conflict, Puritan law will prevail”. So beware of anyone trying to elevate Sharia in the US as a valid justice system based on some whacked out multi-culti mumble-jumble. If US citizen Achmet up wants to live under Sharia, then haul ass and household to a place where it is practiced, not here.
Again, depending on your belief system, you will either do what ever it takes to live another day (gain the world, lose the soul) OR you will do whatever it takes to maintain your faith (lose the world, gain the soul). Death is just another variable in the big scheme of things.
Andy wrote:
Barry, you confuse and blend the difference between …â€my God demands it of me, therefore I must voluntarily sacrifice my child†vs “…reject your God or I kill your childâ€.
The scenario in question arose out of your
statement:
“Better the child be killed as a believer than risk him being raised by the ungodly, losing both life and soul in the end.â€
To me, that says that the death of a child is preferred to your guess that the child might later reject their beliefs… How is that not child sacrifice for religious reasons?
By extension, wouldn’t it then be considered ethical to kill all believing children, since they are guaranteed salvation now, versus some that might stray later?
Death versus not-death is an entirely different “lifeboat” sceanrio than “choose which dies, but one of them has to”. I don’t consider mouthing some words to be an equal consideration to the life of a child.
And as far as “On the other hand, JW and other sects can deny life-saving medical treatment”, I’d suggest you check again. They most certainly cannot, and there are numerous Supreme Court precedents to that effect. See http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/90/7/715 for a basic primer. Some good excerpts:
“Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow that they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children…”
“adults cannot choose to be responsible for the death of their children and, declaring no interest in Biblical interpretation, the court stated clearly that, if parental religious beliefs placed a child’s life in danger then the state could intervene to protect the child.”
“”under no circumstances, with or without due process, with or without religious sanction, may they deprive him of his life”. Unusually, the judge commented on JWs’ beliefs and clarified that when a child’s right to live and parental religious beliefs collide, the child’s welfare is paramount.”
“the right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose…the child…to ill health or death”.
“Parental rights do not give parents life and death authority over their children”
Do you seriously believe that a parent’s religious beliefs gives a parent justification for allowing their child to die when they can save them… especially if saving their life could be accomplished by mouthing insincere platitudes?
As the court case said, freedom to martyr yourself doesn’t mean freedom to martyr your child. I agree with Belch, who called these sorts of forced conversions “faith rape”… they are horribly reprehensible on the part of the terrorists. Yet I cannot see how saving a child’s life in this circumstance could be properly treated by a just God as worthy of costing a parent their soul.
The church I attend teaches the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”… and I think this scenario shows some of the contradictions that arise from failing to embrace that. There is no need to choose between a believing child dying versus being raised by the ungodly when viewed in this light, nor is there a problem with mouthing words to a terrorist to save a child’s life. Salvation is not in jeopardy under this doctrine.
IMO, the ideal path would seem to be getting the child out safely, and then as suggested above trying to use the Koran and the terrorist’s beliefs to lead them to Christ. No souls lost (regardless of the response), and possibly one or more gained.
Barry,
“The church I attend teaches the doctrine of “once saved, always savedâ€â€¦ and I think this scenario shows some of the contradictions that arise from failing to embrace that. There is no need to choose between a believing child dying versus being raised by the ungodly when viewed in this light, nor is there a problem with mouthing words to a terrorist to save a child’s life. Salvation is not in jeopardy under this doctrine.”
My emphasis. The contradictions arise from embracing that notion, noy the other way around.
Either we’re talking past each other, or I’m talking over your head. You’ve indicated that you can’t believe in a Christian God, so it most likely is the latter. So where do I begin?
La Shawn’s stuck a goldmine with this meme and this thread is pretty long such that I’m not inclined to review it all, instead, I’m going to go with my recall.
IIRC, there have been more posts that cite or reference a diverse set of scripture as a powerful basis against mouthing some words in order to save one’s life than the couple oft-repeated citations for doing anything to live yet another day. Some of those contra references by extent of context would invalidate the notion that it’s forgiveable to use children as an excuse for denying one’s faith.
So your church has a doctrine of once saved, always saved, eh? I’d be interested, a la the Bereans, to examine that teaching. Can you reference additional scripture to support your church? All I really know are the basic facts as follows:
–God gave us a roadmap for our lives and to understand his nature and that’s the Bible
–I am to judge the teachings of man to see whether they be consistent with God’s word.
–Satan is a deceiver, appearing as an angel of light in order to lure us to complacency about our faith, or lack thereof
—there are many ways that seemeth righteous (self-justification) to man but the ends are death.
–I also know that many believe Jesus to be ‘liberal’ but further examinaton of their citations show that doctrine to be shallow.
So even tho you believe that doctrine, yet can’t accept a Christian God, does that mean you’re hedging a bet that you’ll still go to heavean to be with our Lord & Savior because once saved, always saved? If so, that’s some happy meal with milk that you’ve been fed.
I guess I should be impressed with the extensive references to activist & non-believing judges who in recent years have decreed that parents can’t ’sacrifice’ their kids by withholding medicine.
While I don’t agree with those parents, I can sympathsize with their plight at the nexus of religious freedom and government decree, I also don’t agree with those foolish judges, especially when those same courts think it’s ok for mothers to commit infanticide, because their version of Meloch is their body and convenience.
The religion of flesh trumps faith? Help me out here…
So in a few years from now, when someone cites a long string of rulings decreeing that same-sex mariage is A-Ok, those decisions should inform our worldview and modify our doctrine?
As for condemning your kids to death, I think you’ve missed the context in which the missionary called back his kid. The scene was in Vietnam, almost anyone who understands anything about the times and place would agree that it was most likely the best call, regardless of whether or not faith was at stake.
You incorrectly presume that I would readily ’sacrifice’ my kids for any occasion. Not so, context is key. If I told you that a couple died in a horrific accident leaving behind their kids, you’d understandably express sympathy and sorrow for those left behind. On the otherhand, if instead, I told you that an elderly couple, in their eighties died in a horrific accident, leaving behind children in their 60s your response would be different, more along the lines “we all have to check out of this world sooner or later”.
I would do anything for my kids, but it’d depend on context whether I’d call back a child or not. Home invasion? Sure, I hope all my kids got away to the neighbors while I cover their escape. In the middle of hostile territory I’d probably opt for a quick end. It just depends.
Speaking of Vietnam, I know a missionary family who were being evac’d by an Army helicopter from the advancing commies. As they ran for the helicopter under a hail of bullets, the mother held one twin in her arms, the father carried the other, while the oldest son dragged his little sister. As it turned out, the father and twin were mowed down while the others escaped to safety.
Using your and the cited court’s logic, the parents should be condemned for even bringing their family into harm’s way in the 1st place.
As for your closing statment, maybe it’s just me, but I find it ironic to attempt to use a lie to save one’s neck, then turn around to try and win others to the God of Truth.
I wonder who the father was of that nugget of wisdom? It wouldn’t be some cat named Beelzebub or that Big Daddy-O in Jn 8:44 would it? Help me out here…
Barry, you said, “the right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose…the child…to ill health or deathâ€.
and
“Parental rights do not give parents life and death authority over their childrenâ€
So, when someone says, “Reject your God or I kill your child.” we should reply, “You don’t have the Consitutional Right to threaten the child like that! Sorry, your terrorism is completely invalidated so we’ll leave now.”
It is not me sacrifising my child. It is the terrorist demanding something that should not be accomodated that is murdering my child and will murder me if I do not disavow my God.
A person has to set a limit to what they will do or not do. Would you commit a sex act on that terrorist if they said you could go free? I know that is crude but who would know? You would not mean it in your heart.
You keep saying that denying your God is mouthing platitudes because you don’t believe it in your heart. I disagree; what you say about your belief is real. I believe in God and that Jesus suffered and dies for our sins. I didn’t think about it before this incident but I sincerely believe that. I pray I would be strong enough to accept death in that kind of situation.
Barry says his church teaches “once save always saved”. Yes, Christ died once for my salvation, one death by Christ was sufficient to cover all my sins and those of the rest of the world. But if I merely mouth the words that I accept Christ as my saviour and accept that he was crucified as a sacrifice for my sins, is that all I have to do? Mouth some words, or after that should I daily try to live a life worthy of such a sacrifice. If all one must do is mouth words of acceptance then should mouthing words to of rejection be of equal weight or value? As I continue to sin each day (many “little” sins and maybe a few “big” ones) — isn’t it also necessary for me to repent of these sins. Salvation and acceptance of salvation isn’t a blank check to sin without repentance.
God is not demanding the sacrifice of our children to satisfy him, GOD sacrificed his son to cover our sins. In your scenario it is the terrorists who are demanding the sacrifice. Your objection to the father who believes that his child is better off “dead” with the rest of the family, then left hiding in the jungle and all imagined peril including potentially being raised my communists. You continue to gloss over your own words/story — that the captors demanded the father call the child back. The “Christian God” I perceive you denying is not asking for such a sacrifice. This “Christian God” already gave that sacrifice for us.
There are some detailed Biblical scholars posting here, I am not one. I do know that the Bible tells us that we store up treasure in heaven by our actions on earth. I find your expression of being appalled by the father calling back the son to be murdered by their captors as hollow,when children are killed every day by their parents for the less significant motive of personal. convenience.
It seems to me that this topic has morphed into a discussion about “once saved, always saved” as a doctrinal issue. This is an issue over which we as Christians will be arguing until our Savior returns, I believe. It has been my experience that the two schools of thought on this are really saying the same thing, just from different viewpoints. I, personally, identify more closely with the “once saved, always saved” viewpoint. There are many people who have deluded themselves regarding their salvation, however and one day Jesus will say to them, “depart, for I never knew you.” This is because justification is the easiest thing and the hardest thing to do. It is somewhat like a child in a burning building, with her father in the street urging her to jump to safety. Faith will allow her to leap with abandon, knowing that her father will never drop her.
In the same way, if you come to an understanding of your circumstances, that of being lost apart from God, and the consequences of remaining where you are AND you come to understand that God IS GOD and Jesus is His only begotten Son, then you can make the leap of Faith. And like the good father, Jesus will never drop you.
Nothing on heaven or earth can cause you to lose that salvation, not man, not demon, not even you can lose it.
And it is that knowledge, that Christ will never fail you, that will enable you to face the executioner with boldness and proclaim the name of Jesus.
As far as the hypothetical situations cited above, well I believe if I am ever faced with such a predicament, God in His infinite mercy will supply me with the grace, wisdom and courage to make the best choice whatever that may be. But I cannot see how denying my Savior can ever be an option.
Finally, although the Bible teaches a better way of living than living in the flesh provides, better because it promotes deeper relationship, honesty, integrity and all that, that is not the point or purpose of God’s Word. The main purpose of God’s Word is to reconcile you to Him. Whether you live or die in any particular circumstance is meaningless compared to that fundemental issue: Are you a child of God or still in rebellion against Him?
benm, well said.
Judy wrote:
Your objection to the father who believes that his child is better off “dead†with the rest of the family, then left hiding in the jungle and all imagined peril including potentially being raised my communists. You continue to gloss over your own words/story — that the captors demanded the father call the child back. The “Christian God†I perceive you denying is not asking for such a sacrifice.
I don’t think I’m glossing over my own words.. perhaps I’ve been unclear. What I found so disturbing in the initial story was the conjunction of two things: One, that a father would call an unwilling child to be a martyr for the family’s faith, and two, that the clergy and congregation saw this act as a fine testament of faith and entirely congruent with what God would want.
So as my church teaches it, it appeared to me that calling an unwilling child to be a martyr based on the strength of the parent’s faith is supposed to be treated as what God wants. In later discussions with others, they were quite willing to point to scriptural support for such a concept.
To me, the critical concept is not that the captors were demanding the action, it was that the father was willing to take it (calling the child back to certain death for religious reasons).
Andy later pointed out what I saw as a more radical extension of the concept of choosing a child’s death: that having the child die was preferable to even the possibility that the child might be raised by the ungodly. Again, I see the concept of a parent choosing to have their child die based on the parent’s religious convictions.
The reason that I posed the later scenario as I did was that it brought out that same component: a parent using their own faith as the yardstick for whether their child should be martyred. It’s a very troubling situation as I see it, when I try to square the ethics of the situation with the dictates of the religion. I didn’t pose it because I think there’s an easy answer… I proposed it precisely because I think there isn’t.
Judy also wrote:
I find your expression of being appalled by the father calling back the son to be murdered by their captors as hollow,when children are killed every day by their parents for the less significant motive of personal. convenience.
If you think you know my position on abortion, I’m pretty sure you’re 100% wrong. I consider every human life lost to abortion to be a tragedy. There’s no inconsistency in my position here… I don’t hold up abortions as fine demonstrations of faith and consistent with what God would want us to do. I also think calling an unwilling child to martyrdom should be treated the same… not as a fine exemplar of faith, but as something that is morally wrong.
John wrote:
So, when someone says, “Reject your God or I kill your child.†we should reply, “You don’t have the Consitutional Right to threaten the child like that! Sorry, your terrorism is completely invalidated so we’ll leave now.â€
It is not me sacrifising my child. It is the terrorist demanding something that should not be accomodated that is murdering my child and will murder me if I do not disavow my God.
You’re mixing and matching my positions on two entirely different situations… the constitutional responses were to Andy’s assertion that JW’s and other sects could deny life-saving medicine. In the US, that’s clearly not the case.
Legal interpretations to his legal assertion are appropriate.
To me, the hard part about this scenario is balancing “something that should not be accomodated” (this sort of faith rape) versus the life of a child. There’s an entire spectrum of things that shouldn’t be accommodated, but they’re not all equal IMO. Some are stronger than others.
I see plenty of people that say “I’d do anything to save my child’s life”, and I wonder how to balance that against horrific demands we might see from some of the terrorists we faced. Hard questions such as this are painful but I think they are useful to clarifying our moral stances.
(and for the record, the scenario I outlined did not include “and will murder me if I do not disavow my God”. I specifically excluded that. The parents who refused had their children tortured and killed, and then the parents were set free. It was not “your child in addition to you”, it was “your child instead of you”.)
I have trouble imagining what I wouldn’t be willing to do to save my children’s life in this scenario. It would probably come up against the line of killing others… short of that, it’s going to be a pretty short list (assuming my will holds and I’m able to overcome my own fears).
Barry, as my Buddhist Granny told me once, the fact that one could be saved simply by believing that God so loved the world that he sent his Son as man incarnate to die a crushing death for our sins was radical. Too radical for a sophisticate such as she to believe in. Buddhism made more sense because it require personal effort.
If her religion was indeed the true religion,I have no doubt thatshe made it to nirvana. Pity, on so many counts …
I guess the thrust is that you keep talking from your wisdom as if it were enough, without citing anything to back up your statements. Interesting that you only address opinions/interpretations and ignore the source.
If you’re sincere about understanding the difficult attributes of God, and the follow-on consequences, you’ll have to do better. Otherwise I’m beginning to feel you’re just trolling for ’soundbites’ to take out of context.
I don’t think Barry’s question is objectionable, just hard to come to grips with. Would I call my child back because a terrorist ordered me to? No, he has no authority over me.
Would I call him back because God, through the Holy Spirit told me to? Yes. But that seems to me to be inconsistent with the Holy Spirit to me. But I acknowledge that real faith, the kind that Abraham had, sometimes involves doing things that make no earthly sense. But in the case Barry cited, I would understand it all in just a moment when the Lord called me home through the terrorists bullet or whatever.
As for my right to make life and death decisions for my child, don’t I do that all the time, when driving for example? If I choose to take a ditch to avoid another’s child who runs out in front of me, am I choosing to harm my own child in the back seat? Life is full of choices like that.
My previous post was to Barry’s original question (133). For his followup question, I want to point out that this is not the same as Vietnam vets being forced to denounce being American’s. I love being American, but I do not worship it.
As far as having a satisfactory answer to the question posed, that is a tough one and maybe I am not smart enough to come up with one. But since I know, with all certainty, where my son would be if the terrorist did his thing, I would not denounce Christ.
But isn’t that a problem with rhetorical questions? You can frame anything to look like it is an exception to the rule, but if you cannot even follow the rule in it’s simplest form, if you deny Christ before men to avoid embarrassment, what does it matter what you will do when it is life and death?
Andy wrote:
So your church has a doctrine of once saved, always saved, eh? I’d be interested, a la the Bereans, to examine that teaching. Can you reference additional scripture to support your church?
I can, but as we’ve seen, the thread has already started going pretty far afield. I’m not sure how divergent LaShawn wants the thread to get.
As benm rightly notes above, Christians will likely be debating the doctrine until the final trump.
Andy also wrote:
As for your closing statment, maybe it’s just me, but I find it ironic to attempt to use a lie to save one’s neck, then turn around to try and win others to the God of Truth.
I think there is doctrinal support for making yourself out to be something you’re not in order to win hearts to salvation. Didn’t Paul himself teach in 1 Cr 9:20-22 that
“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.”
Why then not become as a Muslim in order to win them to salvation?
Andy also wrote:
Either we’re talking past each other, or I’m talking over your head. You’ve indicated that you can’t believe in a Christian God, so it most likely is the latter. So where do I begin?
Please be careful in characterizing what it is that I can or can’t believe. It’s a bit more polite to ask, after all.
I stated that I had been turned away from believing, not that I can’t believe. I was once a fervently strong believer, and embraced Jesus with every fiber of my being. I have since fallen away. I could believe again. I allow that I may be wrong, and that’s a large part of why I continue to attend church, bring my family, and have been studying the Word and other religious writings (quite extensively).
Much more on my personal struggle in my relationship with the Lord isn’t really appropriate on this thread, though. Suffice it to say that I doubt most strongly that you understand fully what I have believed in the past, currently believe, or will believe in the future… OK?
Or do you think it’s fine for you to stand in judgement of someone else who accepted Jesus as their personal savior?
Barry, we all go through seasons of doubt. But God is faithful. Any sound faith is a thinking faith and can stand the scrutiny of an honest seeker. We are not called to make a leap into the dark, rather a leap into the light.
My prayer is that you keep seeking, because as Jesus said, well you know what He said about seeking, don’t you?
Thank you for your prayer, benm. And I will keep seeking.
It’s probably better for me to realize that the inconsistencies I see indicate something… that there are conflicts between the doctrines and approaches of the church I attend, and the attributes that the Bible identifies for God.
Obviously, between the two the attributes of God should trump. That leaves me with the problem of taking my family out of a church that they like because of doctrinal conflicts that I see.
How do I reconcile my desire for doctrinal harmony with scripture, versus acting as a stubmling block for my family by taking them away from a church that leads them towards faith?
It is impossible to find a church without error, because churches tend to have people in them. Two thoughts:
1) If a Church’s doctrine deviates too much from the Bible that it is teaching falsehoods about core fundamental Christian beliefs such as the Divinity of Christ or the truth of the Resurrection, you need to get your family out there as soon as possible, regardless of their comfort. You are, after all, their spiritual leader as ordained by God.
2) The Bible is a mirror, or a light unto our feet, not a searchlight to point out every else’s error. The correct application of its truth is different for each one of us because we each peer into it with our own worldly eyes (I do not mean that the Truth of the Bible deviates, just that our understanding of it may). If the differences you note are minor, use them to examine your own beliefs, but don’t fail to speak, with love, about it with the leaders of the church. Many people don’t examine their churches belief system because “that is what we always believed.” That does not make it right or healthy, but you could be being called to be salt to your congregation.
As a funny aside, once when I was preaching (you had to guess that I was one, didn’t you?) I got kind of excited talking about what life would be like in eternity and said something to the effect that the sunrises in heaven (the New Earth) will be more spectacular than any we have ever seen on earth. A five year old informed me after the service that there was not going to be sunrises or sunsets in heaven. Of course he was right, and I had to issue a correction the next Sunday. I was flabbergasted that a five year old was actually listening to me.
Barry, my apologies for inferring the state of your faith. However, it always helps to know what one believes as a frame of reference.
As for judging, the scriptures tells us there are two kinds, one that we’re to do and the other is reserved for God alon. I can only judge your words against scripture as instructed by multiple passages. But if I came across as able to discern your inner motives (what’s in your heart), then I need to be more clearer because I can’t nor should I try to.
Rgearding Pauls’s passage, since he was half Jew & half Roman, I believe he was saying that depending on he was talking to, he could relate to them and more particularily zero in on their cultural world view and buzz words. I don’t think that can be extrapolated to being ok to temporarily denounce his faith in order to win someone. In fact, he was often beaten, imprisioned or chased out of town, not for pretending to be one of their co-believers, but for preaching the Gospel.
Take the Alter to the Unknown God. Paul stood in front of the altar, announced that he knew who it was and proceeded to witness from the angle that satan had obscured God’s OT message, hence the unknown. Note, he didn’t make himself a unknown-god believer in order to witness.
Likewise, for one who intends to witness to Muslims has to understand the koran and start off with the common ground, eventually coming around to the point that satan had created a false religion for the children of Ismael in order to ’steal the birthright’ promised to the children of Israel by God/Allah.
Cheers
As a believer I would not deny my savior at gun point. Hands down, no questions asked…
2 Tim 2:11-13
John 15:13
Philippians 1:21
Now, the difficult part is when I am faced with the every day decisions that my sin nature poses for me… When no one is looking… Please pray that I am faithful in the little things!
If Im ever captured by Muslim maniacs or non-Muslim maniacs who gave me a choice between denying my Savior and death, Id want to face death with all the dignity I had left.
Screw that – I’d say whatever I had to so I could get away from them and then give our war fighters the best and most detailed intel dump they’ve ever gotten from a hostage.
We can’t win by dying. We can win by giving our guys the tools they need to do the job. Information is a very powerful tool.
This is the real world LaShawn, not a movie.
I should add, so its crystal clear. “Denying” God to, in reality serve God, is hardly something to be ashamed of. Lets get real here — God knows you’re running a scam on the bad guys.
Better to take care of your life so that you are there for your children.
201st Poster!!! La Shawn, this is gonna rank up there in your annals.
Dear Christian Brothers and Sisters,
Your answer here is important. Why? Because one day if you are still on this earth, you will be required to bow to the Anti-Christ and deny the Christ in order to exist.
It’s not a question of “if”, it’s “when” you will be asked to deny Jesus in order to save yourself!
Jim R,
I never called anyone names. The only person that’s called anyone names is YOU.
By the way, Jim R, it’s your kind of “Christian spirit” that repels me from the Jesus Christ. So, pat yourself on the back.
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