Note: Please don’t go off on a tangent about “judging” the men, people. The question is: “Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die?”
Let’s keep the discussion on topic.
———————————————
By now I’m sure you’ve heard about the release of two FOX News journalists captured a couple of weeks ago by group of idiot thugs. According to one of the journalists, Steve Centanni, he and his fellow captive Olaf Wiig were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint.
A few short months ago, a former Muslim was facing death in Afghanistan because he’d become a Christian. The blogosphere rallied in support, and I blogged about it here, recounting the story of the first Christian martyr, Stephen (depicted above in Rembrandt’s “The Stoning of St. Stephen”). Read the biblical account beginning with Acts 6.
Abdul Rahman did not deny Christ. He was willing to die for his beliefs, but God said, “Not yet.”
There’s no indication in the FOX story or any I’ve read that Centanni or Wiig were Christians. If they were, they probably would’ve said so. All Centanni said was:
“We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint,” Centanni told FOX News. “Don’t get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn’t know what the hell was going on.”
Embrace Islam or die. That would be a simple choice for me, though not an easy one if I had a gun to my head.
(Isn’t it strange that Centanni, who said he “converted” only because he had a gun to his head, felt the need to be apologetically politically correct by expressing the “highest respect for Islam”? Unbelievable on so many levels.)
Thanks to the blessing of living in a free and civilized country (for the time being), Christians in America likely won’t face deny-Christ-or-die scenarios. Aside from the usual attempts to shunt our beliefs from the public sphere at best, and the possibility of having Bible-based preaching labeled as hate speech at worst, Christians in America have it relatively easy compared to the rest of the world.
However…knowing that people think you’re out of your mind for believing in an omnipotent, omniscient, intelligent being outside time and space who created the world and everything in it, and that this being saw how corrupt his creation was and destroyed it, then promised to never destroy it again by water, constantly forgiving and punishing his people, then condescended to become a man to teach people about his Father’s kingdom (What is the trinity?) and eternal existence beyond this world, and bear the Father’s wrath for the sins of those he came to save — although he was sinless — and promised to return some day to judge the whole world and gather his followers as if separating wheat from chaff…is not easy. But it’s not fatal. 
Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die? Would you deny the Savior?
I thought about this a couple of years ago when Nick Berg was beheaded. I don’t think Berg was a Christian or given the choice to deny or die. He was doomed just for being an American, and being a Jew certainly didn’t help matters.
If I’m ever captured by Muslim maniacs or non-Muslim maniacs who gave me a choice between denying my Savior and death, I’d want to face death with all the dignity I had left. As a prideful person (for better or for worse), I don’t want to give my would-be murderers the satisfaction of breaking me, especially if they’re going to kill me anyway. And what is my life worth without Christ?
[Clarification: If I gave the impression that I thought I would “lose” my salvation if I denied Christ, I certainly didn’t intend to, though the previous sentence may read that way. The Bible teaches that once Christ forgives us, we’re always forgiven. Once saved, always saved. I don’t have to work to “keep” my salvation. Yes, even if I denied Christ, God forbid it, he’s still my Savior.]
Would I want to live with the shame of not trusting him and denying him for the sake of living in this fallen world?
Judgment against those who’ve murdered people because of their faith in Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Bible specifically. John, the last surviving apostle and banished to the barren island of Patmos by the Roman government because of his faith, received a vision from God about existing Christian churches and future events, including worship in heaven, and God’s terrible and righteous judgment against unbelievers and the king of unbelievers, Satan. Inspired by God, John writes:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. (Revelation 6)
Until Christ returns, his followers will be martyred for the faith. If ever faced with deny-or-die, I’d choose to be among those asking, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Addendum: A Christian mother says she’d convert (or pretend to) to stay alive for her children. While reflecting on this post before writing it, I thought about Christian mothers, especially those with young children. Would you pretend to convert to stay alive, or would you refuse to deny Christ, knowing your children may end up as orphans? Either way, it’s a matter of trust and faith.
Blog links: A Winter Soldier’s Story, Hot Air, Diggers Realm, The Colossus…
Update (12:03 p.m.): We may be dealing with two separate things here: converting (or pretending to) at gunpoint and denying Christ at gunpoint. For Christians, converting is denying. For unbelievers, I guess there’s a difference. For Christians, there really isn’t.
I don’t know what I’d do.
As a Christian, I hope God would grant me enough strength to not renounce Christianity.
At the same time, I’d also remember that Islam allows to lie to one’s enemies.
Comment by Fausta — 08.28.06 @ 10:27 am
My only hesitation in saying this is that I’d prefer not to follow Peter’s first example: but I would die at the hand of a Muslim captor before denying Christ or converting to Islam. It’s not even a question.
Comment by FzxGkJssFrk — 08.28.06 @ 10:30 am
The ways of the so called religion of peace and to think some are actually calling SUN MUNG WEIRD MOON the KING OF PEACE what’s with these persons are they losing their minds? and frankly now he is back home he should renounce ISLAM as the religion of violence and evil
Comment by BIRDZILLA — 08.28.06 @ 10:31 am
Fox News Reporters Released
La Shawn Barber is asking also:
Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or do? Would you deny the Savior?
Trackback by Sierra Faith — 08.28.06 @ 10:44 am
Questions. If you had to renounce you Christian beliefs under duress (gunpoint/beheading) who is being hurt? God? As men are we not judging these men based on what they did to keep alive? Is it our place to judge these men when we do not know what is in their soul? If you believe that God knows what is in a man’s soul, do you think that God understands what they had to do to say alive.
Comment by dbennett — 08.28.06 @ 10:49 am
Hmmm…perhaps I need to have my eyes checked, because I don’t see any judgment in my post against the men, nor did I ask Christian readers to judge them. I asked Christians what they’d do if asked to deny Christ. Careful reading and reflection before posting works wonders.
Comment by La Shawn — 08.28.06 @ 10:57 am
I’d convert in a second. I have young children. I would do anything in the world to stay alive to raise them. They’ve already been abandoned once on a street in China.
Comment by lorrie — 08.28.06 @ 10:57 am
Honestly,
the kidnapping looks like a hoax. To much praising Islam and the Palestinians going on. All to orchestrated and neat. But hey, that’s just me and who am I
La Shawn,
I thought the same as you when I heard about the “conversion” at gunpoint.
“Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die? Would you deny the Savior?”
Sadly, for spoiled America, I don’t think this will be answered until our security blanket here is ripped away and persecution comes. Outside of the western world, Christians are faced with the reality of what their faith in Christ truly means, everyday (we are actually the ones living in fantasy land).
Comment by Renee — 08.28.06 @ 10:58 am
I wonder what an atheist would do if forced to convert with a gun pointed at their head?
Comment by syn — 08.28.06 @ 11:12 am
La Shawn. Jeez. I think that your being too sensitive and the insult was not needed. My questions were to provoke discussion not a judgment on Christians or your views. I enjoy your writing but that was hurtful. Courtesy works wonders as well.
Nope, I’m not being too sensitive. Had you intended to merely “provoke discussion,” that would have been clear in your post. It’s not. Instead, you either misread the post or didn’t read it carefully and implied that I was judging the men. I’ve been doing this for three years; trust me, I know exactly what you meant the first time. Either way, my blog, my rules. If you want to participate in the discussion, good. - Admin
Comment by dbennett — 08.28.06 @ 11:14 am
I would HOPE that my core beliefs are strong enough that I would choose to die rather than deny my beliefs. I’m not sure though because one doesn’t really know the strength of one’s belief until the gun is actually pointed at your head.
We need to be charitable and Christian enough to reserve judgment on these two men. Stockholm Syndrome is a powerful force and their words may change radically once they are safely out of the Middle East!
Besides, “judge not lest ye be judged” seems like a good policy to follow!
Comment by Gayle Miller — 08.28.06 @ 11:20 am
Well, one can’t be forced to convert. Conversion must be in the heart. One can only be forced to act as if converted. I would pretend to convert because I don’t want my kids growing up in a fatherless home. In my heart, I will still be praying to Jesus. I’m confident that God will understand.
Comment by Shade — 08.28.06 @ 11:27 am
Also, the first opportunity I get, I would relocate to somewhere where I can worship as I desire.
Comment by Shade — 08.28.06 @ 11:29 am
‘Siyo Friends, don’t worry - be happy! Our government and our fine MSM (main scream media) will do all that is necessary for us to be well informed as to the enemy we fa… ‘… Move along folks, nothing to see here’. Bear
Comment by Bear — 08.28.06 @ 11:30 am
I’m glad to see someone else seeing it this way.
I don’t know how to do trackbacks, but I linked to you at:
http://boazandruth.blogspot.com/2006/08/fox-journalists-released-after.html
Comment by My Boaz's Ruth — 08.28.06 @ 11:36 am
La Shawn: “(Isn’t it strange that Centanni, who said he ‘converted’ only because he had a gun to his head, felt the need to be apologetically politically correct by expressing the ‘highest respect for Islam’? Unbelievable on so many levels.)”
That was one of my very first thoughts when I read the story!
OK…about the question.
I pray that I would not deny Christ. That’s my fervent hope.
I am a wimp, and probably would be a sniveling coward in most high-pressure situations.
But I pray that God would give me what I’ve heard called “dying grace”–and that He would enable me with courage and bravery that is not usually innate in me.
Again, that is my hope and prayer.
Comment by Cindy Swanson — 08.28.06 @ 11:56 am
“…especially if they’re going to kill me anyway.”—La Shawn
But, you don’t know that. These are murderers, who knows what they’re gonna do.
I’d die for liberty. “Give me liberty, or give me death”.
But, I wouldn’t die for religion.
A conversion is a lot more than just one agonizing moment.
Conversion is so much more than that. A true conversion is something that continues on over a lifetime, and you reconfirm on a daily basis, your beliefs.
So, it doesn’t really matter what someone does, during a moment of duress, what matters is the day to day conversion, over a lifetime.
I’d say whatever they wanted, to get myself out of the situation. It’s just words in that moment….to stay alive.
God knows the difference.
Comment by Glamchild — 08.28.06 @ 11:59 am
I truly believe God knows our hearts and He also knows those that are weaker then others and those that are stronger then others. It is not up to us to judge these men for saying what they did to stay alive and be freed. It is up to God, He is better at this kind of thing.
Where we should have our eyes wide open is in how the media kissed up to the evil of Islam that kidnapped them and will continue to do destruction to all non-Muslims. The enemy will use this as a plus in any way they can and that makes me angry.
We need to come down hard on the media that will not take a stand against Islam and will not support our troops and the IDF. Come down hard on our leaders that prefer to give in to a PC war instead of letting the military do what they do best. Not come down hard on men that may not have had nerves of steel like many of our Veterans had to have when taken prisoner.
Comment by Wild Thing — 08.28.06 @ 12:10 pm
It isn’t only Islamists who force the question at gunpoint. I’ve never forgotten the story of the Columbine girl who was asked the question “Do you believe in God?” When she answered yes, killer asked “Why?” and shot her. I’ve always considered her a martyr who went straight to heaven because she didn’t deny God. Could I do the same? I’d like to think so, but I don’t know.
Louise
Comment by LouiseB — 08.28.06 @ 12:15 pm
I don’t remember which saint it was or the exact details off the top of my head, but this discussion brings to mind a story I heard some time ago. It goes something like this: This priest was in prison and faced with being burned at the stake the next morning for his beliefs in Christ.
With that knowledge his fear was whether he would have the strength to face the heat from the flames that would take his life.
To see if he could face the flames he placed his hand over the flame from the small candle in his prison cell. The pain was intense and he pulled back quickly from the flame. He tried again and again but each time he failed to stay over the flame for more than the barest of moments. He just couldn’t do it.
Fear weighed heavy on his spirit.
He couldn’t see how he was going to face the execution for his beliefs in the morning. He spent the night in prayer, struggling with his failure in his test with the flame from the small candle.
When the morning came and he was to be burned at the stake, a supernatural Spirit of peace descended upon him and he faced the heat from the pyre with a smile and a song of praise to God the Father on his lips.
Reminds me of this verse:
As to the mothers and fathers who would deny Christ with their mouths so as not to leave their children motherless or fatherless. Would you live with them godless?
I don’t ask that to condemn. I understand the desire on your part because of your great love for them; admittedly I have no children of my own. But speaking as a child I would be heart broken to know my father or mother denied Christ for me. I am not that selfish and neither are they.
God is sufficient.
Comment by Hal — 08.28.06 @ 12:15 pm
There is no question as to what Christians shoud do in such circumstances. Sadly, our schools no longer teach such things, but century and a half ago, virtually all schoolchildren would have had at least a passing familiarity with Augustine’s “City of God”, (still surprisingly readable and relevant…) as well as “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs” - both of which present a clear-headed (if currently out-of-fashion) picture of a Christian’s duty in the circumstance in which he must renounce his God or die.
In some bizarre way, even though a horrible death is involved, I think it might be easier for many people (and I think I’m one of them) to stand fast for Christ even under pain of death than to continually resist the 10,000 small sins that confront one on a daily basis. Now I’m not eager to die the death of a martyr, but I would, and there’s a degree of envy (could “envy” possibly be the right word, if stripped of its negatives?) of those given the chance to crystallize their stand in faith at a single fateful moment. In a way, that seems to me easier than the daily slog through dangers like the Slough of Despond. (This last is a reference to “The Pilgrim’s Progress”, another book with which every student would have been familiar a century ago, and one with extremely valauable lessons for those walking along the path of Christ - this was for many, many years, the best-selling book in the English language, after only the Bible itself, and was called “without doubt, the most influential religious book ever written in the English language” by Yale English Professor Alexander Witherspoon. Have *you* read it?
(As an aside, isn’t it wonderful that Christian martyrs don’t blow up airplanes, buildings, and little children?)
Comment by Dub Dublin — 08.28.06 @ 12:22 pm
I have children too, but their faith in Christ is more important to their eternal souls than my temporary position as their mother. This isn’t to say that mothers aren’t important because they obviously are, but the task I mustn’t fail is to point my kids to Christ with word and deed. They have family by blood and by church so they wouldn’t be orphans if I were killed for upholding Christ. I would NOT convert or even lie about it, and if I were even halfway serious about Jesus being Lord, my dying breath would be spent proclaiming God’s truth.
Would I be scared? Would I wish things were going differently? Sure! But when it comes down to the wire, it’s written: “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.” - Matthew 10:32,33
That’s the truth whether we like it or not.
Comment by FL Mom — 08.28.06 @ 12:23 pm
>>I’d say whatever they wanted, to get myself out of the situation. It’s just words in that moment….to stay alive.>>
Granting this point - especially the “in that moment” part…maybe. But if that “conversion” meant that I had to _live_ that lie? the rest of my life? If you’re in a situation where you can make the “I convert” statement and walk away with the option of saying it was all baloney, that’s one thing. If you’re making the statement and have no opportunity of “do-overs” that’s another.
As for the “I’d convert so the children wouldn’t be orphans” thing, I’d tend to agree, but it would be more an “I’d convert so that my children wouldn’t become muslims” as they most certainly would if they were allowed to live without their Christian parent. I think I’d rather have my children dead than become muslims.
Speaking of children…there have been many orphaned in the recent conflicts - does anyone have any idea how islamic countries handle the problem, assuming that there are no close family or tribal members to take them in? Are there orphanages? I can’ recall hearing of any…. Or do they just become street children…?
Comment by suek — 08.28.06 @ 12:24 pm
I would pray hard and ask God for forgiveness for denying Him ONLY to my captors, not in my heart. I believe he would know I was only doing it to save my skin. Especially true if the lives of my family were at stake. However, if the Lord Jesus was standing before me and I was asked to deny Him, no way. I would suffer whatever the consequence was.
Comment by dianne — 08.28.06 @ 12:29 pm
#24 is already feeling guilty for saying what I did. I may have to rethink this whole thing.
Comment by dianne — 08.28.06 @ 12:36 pm
I would not want to deny Christ under any circumstances. If it was just a question of my daughters going fatherless, the choice would be an easy one; no denial, no conversion, Christ is my Lord & Savior. If the choice was to convert to Islam or my daughters die, it would be a much harder choice to make; but I still would not want to deny Christ as my Lord & Savior.
My purpose in life is to be reunited with God in Heaven through Christ and to testify to God’s infinite love and wisdom by living the best life I can and professing to do so out of my belief in, and love for, Jesus Christ so that others may also find the way to eternal salvation.
Wow! I’m not really so staunchly religious, but it is what I believe and I pray I can make the right decision if I ever face that dilemma.
Comment by Leon — 08.28.06 @ 12:43 pm
The thought of seeing Jesus and having him tell me he “never knew me” is infinitely more frightening than what any man can do to me. I agree with Dub (#21), I suspect it would be easier to face martyrdom than the all the “little” ways we deny Christ daily.
As for pretending to convert, what is that besides denying him before men? Keep in mind that our lives should already be given to Christ, the opportunity to proclaim him at death is for the benefit of the living, that some may be saved. If you think you couldn’t trust God to take care of your children, perhaps this is a good time to reexamine your faith. (Oh dear, I’m being judgmental, aren’t I?)
Comment by ElCee — 08.28.06 @ 1:07 pm
Somtimes You Get Killed Anyway
Discussing the conversion to Islam by the “sword” of former hostages Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig, La Shawn Barber demonstrates that it’s not so easy to know what a person of any faith (or no faith) would in a similar situation.
Trackback by Pajamas Media — 08.28.06 @ 1:08 pm
It’s not what you say; it’s what’s in your heart.
Denial with words (especially under threat) is not the same as an honest denial inside your soul. An omniscient God (presumably) knows the difference.
So I would lie my butt off.
Comment by Kman — 08.28.06 @ 1:11 pm
Exactly, Louise. Also, there was another young lady at Columbine, Rachel, i think, who was asked if she believed in Christ at gunpoint. She answered yes and the guy pulled the trigger, but the gun didn’t go off and she scampered away.
I don’t know what I would do, either. I know that I hope to stay true to my faith, but I think when death is staring you in the face like that it would take the grace of God more than our own strength to do so.
I do remember reading many a tale of Christian women staying true to their faith and being martyred although they had small children. I guess they had to trust God to provide for their children as well. But I know that such fears preyed upon me much more when my own were very small. With each passing year, I feel they could do without me more.
Comment by Anna Venger — 08.28.06 @ 1:27 pm
I’m not quite sure. My mother once had a saying about martyrdom (though she was talking about terrorists). She said “You can’t do much for your religion if you’re dead.”
I tend to agree. If renouncing my faith to save my life meant that I would never be able to witness to others again, then I’d say “shoot me now.”
But if all I had to do was say “praise Allah” once and then be let go to live the rest of my life, I have to admit I’d be tempted. After all, I wouldn’t actually be praising Allah. And as a struggling homosexual, I feel that there’s a lot I can do (and have actually been called to do) to help reach out to that community. I want to help others reach Christ. I’m not sure if I can do that if I’m dead. It’s a tricky situation, either way.
Comment by Jay — 08.28.06 @ 1:38 pm
I appreciate the post. My wife and I have discussed this “what if…” scenario before if I was held captive like that.
As staunch Calvinists in theology, I would go out preaching my heart out and renouncing allah as the false god that he is and Mohamet as the false prophet he was. My wife says she would do the same during the media swarm afterwards looking to get a reaction to my death.
Just as a side note: The situation with Naaman comes into mind here. (2 Kings 5:18).
Fred
Comment by Fred Butler — 08.28.06 @ 1:40 pm
Excellent post Lashawn….
Like many have said here, I hope I would never be in such a situation.
If I was still a single guy and no kids, I know I would not deny my Lord and convert to Islam to save my own life….but now that I have kids….thats a hard pill to swallow, it just makes me sick to my stomach to think of myself converting to some other religion. I still say I will not.
I think about that girl in the Columbine shootings who refused to deny Christ and was killed for it.
I also think of Peter, he denied Christ 3 times…
Some are able to exercise great faith and trust in the Lord in every situation and circumstance, some are not.
Comment by lukeNC — 08.28.06 @ 1:46 pm
I like to think that I would stand firm for Christ. To live is Christ to die is gain. Kill me and send me to my Lord, which is where I want to go anyway. Hurt me and increase my eventual reward. Leave me alone and I’ll keep on preaching the Gospel.
I wish I’d said those things!
It’s hard to say though…your outlook is very different with a gun in your face.
I hope I’d do the right thing.
Comment by Mark La Roi — 08.28.06 @ 2:08 pm
On the one hand it makes sense to simply cooperate in order to spare your life, especially since you don’t really mean it, yet on the other hand I think that whether you mean it or not becomes a moot point. It obviously means something if the terrorists would force you to do it at gunpoint or with threat of violence. If we can realize that we can fake it til we make it then surely they have realized that as well, yet it seems apparent that to them it doesn’t matter if you are sincere or not, as long as you profess to their faith, paying lip service seems to be enough.
Having said that, I would think that it would matter if you faked it or not in that even our words have power and meaning. Whether or heart is in it or not may not matter as much. Denying Christ to profess another faith, whether you mean to or not is still denying Christ isn’t it? I am sure you can repent afterwards but, what if there is no afterwards?
I’d rather stick to my guns to the end rather than have my last words be professing faith to a false god.
“to live is Christ but to die is gain” right?
Comment by Jerry McClellan — 08.28.06 @ 2:13 pm
I think it would depend on how I’d be killed if I had to deny God/Christ. If I was to be beheaded, I don’t know if I’d have the inner strength to stay true to my beliefs (temporarily, at least) when faced with such a grisly death. I think God would certainly grant one forgiveness if faced with such a situation.
A quick gun shot to the head would be a easier to take, for lack of a better term.
Comment by Hube — 08.28.06 @ 2:34 pm
While I’m not a Christian (I lean towards Buddhism if I could say there was any organized religion I belonged to), I’ll tell any Muslim who stuck a gun to my head and ordered me to convert to go ahead and shoot me because I’d never join his religion.
Comment by Mark — 08.28.06 @ 2:56 pm
Christians-in-name-only would have no trouble becoming Muslims-in-name-only.
True Christians would not convert, or even pretend to. If it were me, I would die and enter my Father’s Kingdom right on time, as He sets the limit of my days.
Comment by Doug — 08.28.06 @ 2:58 pm
I thought about it and pray that I would be strong enough to die before converting.
A point brought up elsewhere is that the two men would be considered apostate by Islam if they recant the ‘conversion’ and it would bring a fatwa that they be killed by any muslim that could.
The idea that the conversion is under gunpoint is not relavant as ‘there is no coercion in religion’. They believe you have the right to die; if you convert then you were not coerced.
Comment by John — 08.28.06 @ 3:01 pm
God forbid I was ever, or anyone I know, to be put in that position. However, if I was I would pray for the Lord to strengthen me to maintain my allegiance to Christ even unto death. I would have to trust the Lord to take care of my loved ones and that my death would be a witness to the fact that eternity is more important than the temporal.
Granted, the above is easy to say coming from our relatively safe community here in the United States. Also, I don’t sit on the judgment/mercy seat. I speak only for my own conviction.
Comment by Randy — 08.28.06 @ 3:31 pm
how best to put this … why would mere *words*, spoken under extreme duress to psychotic madmen threatening your life, be a huge a issue to god? as i’m not a bible-reading fellow, i cannot cite scripture to back this up, but aren’t there passages in there that say something to the effect of ‘what you do is more important than what you say’?
so lunatics holding you a gunpoint make you say - as a condition of not killing you - things you don’t really believe. today, it’s “i’m now a moslem”. so let’s take that hotbutton concept out of the equation, and say you were made to proclaim, “i’m now a butterfly”. it’s obviously not true; you obviously don’t mean it; in your heart you still love jesus; but these guys are nuts, and this is life-and-death. does god insist that you choose death rather than tell a whopper?
back in the bad-ol’ cold war days, every now & then the bad guys would capture a few of our servicemen and make them slander their country on video. “capitalist imperialist warmongers”, that sort of thing. when we got our guys back, they weren’t prosecuted for those things they’d *said*, were they? because it was understood that they’d been beaten & tortured, and they never meant it? so why does this have to be any different?
i know, i know. “honor”. highly important, & there’s not enough of it these days, as i’ll be the first to say. but, again, we’re dealing with madmen here. men with no more concept of honor than dung beetles. does god hold against you lies told to hopelessly insane sociopaths?
one of the central tenets of christianity is - i gather - “forgiveness”. just as our tortured servicemen were forgiven. does the bible SAY you have to take the bullet? does the bible SAY that meaningless words, mere puffs af air no more tangible than a politicians’ slogan, spoken under extreme circumstances will forever cast you from jesus’ sight? (not being a wiseguy here, i don’t know.) if it does, fine; that’s that. but if it doesn’t…..what’s the big deal?
Comment by ed — 08.28.06 @ 4:41 pm
God help me, I couldn’t deny my Saviour. We need to fear God, who has the power to throw us into Hell, rather than fear men. My life is not worth my soul. We cannot, as Christians, deny Jesus.
Rev 6: 9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Comment by Walt Schulte — 08.28.06 @ 4:50 pm
ed asked:
That is a very valid question, ed.
Speaking for myself, I must say the big deal is the love I have for God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the indwelling Holy Spirit. It’s knowing that the Father is the one who safe guards my very existence.
It’s knowing that as I submit in obedience to Him, anything that comes my way I can face because of His Spirit in me. It’s not asking myself, What would Jesus do?, but being and doing what Jesus would do because I am not focused on what my desire or will is but upon what the Father’s will is because of my desire to please Him.
You see, the Lord is more real to me than that bullet, that sword, or whatever threatens my flesh.
Which isn’t to say there aren’t daily struggles, as was noted in the comment #21, by Dub Dublin. Dub is so correct that the daily struggle is often the more difficult. Even Paul said as much when he said he would prefer to be at home with the Lord than still on earth. But he also noted that:
And in saying that, Paul reminds us that living Christ not only means helping people, showing them love and forgiveness, having a daily personal relationship with the Father, but can and will include suffering too.
Comment by Hal — 08.28.06 @ 5:17 pm
I know you asked for Christian oppinions, but I wanted to provide a Jewish perspective. Reading about this made me think of Kol Nidre, which arose during the Middle Ages, during a time when Jews were being forced to convert by the Catholic Church. Kol Nidre is a renunciation of all vows between oneself and God, that one might make under duress. I think I would still feel horrible about renouncing my Jewish faith, even if it were at gun point, and I pray that the Almighty would give me the strength if I ever found myself in that position.
Comment by Amanda Rush — 08.28.06 @ 5:17 pm
My honest opinion - I would like to think that I would not “convert” to Islam or deny my Lord under pain of torture or death. But I don’t know.
Comment by Mwalimu Daudi — 08.28.06 @ 5:45 pm
I cannot imagine renouncing the Lord Jesus Christ, but the answer lies in the faith of each of us. We can only answer for ourselves.
Comment by DagneyT — 08.28.06 @ 5:48 pm
This was my first and continuing internal debate since their release. For me, I can only wonder why I am of two minds. My first reaction is to desire to be as those whose “witness” (martyrdom) we see in the Bible and church history. My second is the knowledge that forcing me to say something means nothing. I also know that with this same knowledge I would have been more likely when younger to just lie. Now that I am older death is not the threat it once was. In fact I may just thank them for the chance to seal my life’s witness.
Comment by les — 08.28.06 @ 6:41 pm
Ok, I’m obviously confused about Christianity.
Jesus Christ was the one who died for us. He was the one who willingly went to his death, so that we could live.
We don’t die for him…..he died for us.
Or, so I thought.
To say that you would die for your God…..feels very cult-like…to me.
I, personally, would die for liberty, and I would fight to the death to protect the Constitution…..because with out that…..you cannot even practice religion.
I go down fighting, doing whatever I think , or need to say to preserve my life, if that doesn’t work and I’m killed anyway……at least I died fighting….at least I tried to escape death.
I agree with the others who say belief is in your heart. It’s not about words.
And, God already knows what’s in your heart….no words necessary.
Comment by Glamchild — 08.28.06 @ 7:06 pm
Glamchild - your comment sounds nice enough: but it denies the entirety of the New Testament, not to mention the history of the early church.
“To say that you would die for your God feels very cult-like to me.”
You can take that up with the apostles Paul, Peter, and Thomas, among others. Was Emperor Nero, who lit Christians on fire to light his gardens, any less insane than today’s Islamic terrorists?
Comment by FzxGkJssFrk — 08.28.06 @ 7:22 pm
ok, let’s boil it down to the essence. bad guys say “convert or die!”; you say “no way!”. you’ve just chosen death.
questions:
1)have you not in a way just committed suicide? is such a thing right? proper? moral?
2)does the bible actually demand your death/martyrdom in a case like this? where?
3)if your martyrdom is NOT demanded, then by choosing it - in an instance where it could be avoided by telling a lie to psychopaths - is that perhaps a sin of excessive pride?
4)there’s a major world religion that promotes/demands/glorifies martyrs hot & heavy these days. is choosing to do what *they* think is a supercool thing, really a good idea?
again, i’m not trying to be a wiseguy here. i’m not a bible-reader, and i don’t know the answers to these questions. but i AM troubled by those who believe they MUST ‘die for jesus’, if the founding documents of the religion don’t demand it. i know of no quote attributed to jesus in which he says “you must always profess your belief in me even at the pain of death”. choosing martyrdom is a hallmark of radical islam; to my mind that’s a real real bad thing to do.
Comment by ed — 08.28.06 @ 7:35 pm
>>Jesus Christ was the one who died for us. He was the one who willingly went to his death, so that we could live.>>
But He didn’t have to, really. He only “had” to in the sense that not to have done so would have negated His life. He is the model, and it’s one we should follow, but He is perfect and we are not - that is the struggle each of us has. We have the feeling that to deny our beliefs would negate our lives, but at the same time knowing that it’s what is in our hearts that counts, not the words we may be compelled to speak.
There may also be an element of pride in this…
As for the cult-like thing… I understand your position - have you read “The True Believer”? It raises questions…!
Comment by suek — 08.28.06 @ 7:43 pm
No Christian should be confused about such a basic tenet of the faith. Christ died so that those he saved could live spiritually, not physically. He didn’t suffer for my sins so I could live in a physical body. He suffered so I wouldn’t be eternally separated from God, which is spiritual death.
Getting into biblical doctrine with unbelievers and others who don’t read the Bible is difficult on a comment thread.
Which is why I rarely tackle it on this blog.
Comment by La Shawn — 08.28.06 @ 7:49 pm
Words have an effect. Under the described scenario, verbally betraying Christ is not done in a vacuum, so there is the reality that the denial of Christ will deeply affect those who witness it or become aware of it. It is not as simple as crossing one’s fingers while uttering lies.
Comment by jan — 08.28.06 @ 7:56 pm
Let us not forget, we who make that one-time decision to trust Jesus Christ as our Savior, then all our sins are paid for and forgiven, past, present and future. He died for every sin for every person. Those who chose to accept that salvation can never lose it.
Jesus Christ said in John 10:28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
Once secure in Jesus Christ we are secure eternally. No sin, no false confession or denial can separate us from our Savior. That is the Peace that passes all understanding!!
Romans 8:38-39 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Jesus Christ is the SAVIOR, not a probation officer checking to see how obedient we are. Once in Christ by our faith, obedience to Him is a privilege, not a requirement for salvation.
A denial for a true believer has no bearing on his/her eternal life.
What should we do if/when faced with Islam or die?
As for me, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” Philippians 1:21
ExP (Jack)
Comment by ExPreacherMan — 08.28.06 @ 8:28 pm
Good topic LaShawn… I was considering this this morning and last week when a local radio program was discussing Jill Caroll’s enthusiasm for her Muslim kidnappers. Would I cooperate with evil in order to live? Would I convert (in effect, to deny Christ) to live? The answer to both questions has to be no. I would pray for strength because I know, in my weakness, I would do anything to avoid pain or death.
Ed, I would very much like to share with you the stories from the Bible of men who died proclaiming the gospel — the good news — of Christ. Jesus had fore-warned them they would share in his violent death. The apostles went in with their eyes open. That’s just a smattering of New Testament apostles. Prophets in the Old Testament submitted to death rather than deny the truth of God’s word as well. So to answer your question about whether the Bible requires death rather than denying Christ, I would say there’s considerable precedent in favor of it.
In scripture, suicides are people who actively take their lives (like Judas hanging himself). Jesus did not save himself from the cross, and he could have called legions of angels to his defense. Was that suicide? Consider that as he died on that cross and prayed for his persecutors, the thief next to him knew he was the living God, believed, and was saved.
Whether or not it’s prideful seems a more philosophical question. Can pride motivate one to die when a simple Isalmic conversion could save one’s life? A prideful person, I think, would want to stay alive.
Finally, as for drawing a paralel between Christian martyrs and the Muslims who blow themselves up near schools and shopping malls, surely you can see the difference. Christian martyrs are killed by mobs or state officials demanding they recant their testimony or die. Muslim bombers, acting under no physical duress whatsoever, blow themselves up and try to take as many unconnected innocents with them (preferable children and civilians) as possible. I think there is an essential distinction.
God Bless,
E.
Comment by E. — 08.28.06 @ 8:38 pm
We can all sit here and debate about what we would do if we were given the choice. Yet if the person who doesn’t support the police will most likely be the first ones to call them … what do we really know about ourselves?
In interrogation or torture situations, your mind is broken. Your will most likely will break down at some point … and you start to believe in what your captors are saying. You see their sides. If they tell you - convert at gun and be set free OR stay here and die … you will see the points in being free.
There is a book called “Silence” written by Endo, about Catholics who were sent to Japan to try and convert the Japanese. Then all these priests wer eput to death, some died … but the main character, Father Rodrigues … his will was broken. He was reminded of what Jesus said to Peter and he heard the rooster crow … and he denied Jesus 3 times. I read the epilogue as seeing, he may have denied him outloud but not in his heart.
In Eastern Catholicism, it’s said to convert - you must pray and think it through. How do we know, if they didn’t pray or not … and they thought it was the best in their situation. Yet I doubt, they’re going to pray to Mecca - 5 times a day.
They did what they had to do.
If we were put in the situations, we might actually give up our lives for our religions and some of us who are saying that … might be the first to break.
We just don’t know.
I am one that is more willing to die at choice for my country and for my family. God can decide any day for you to come to Him. It’s not up to us but up to God. We cannot end our lives because no one has that power but Him.
I choose to live until He chooses.
Comment by Jen — 08.28.06 @ 8:39 pm
AMEN LaShawn,comment #52 is something I was just reminded of myself yesterday. We should not attempt to discuss biblical doctrine with unbelievers. Without the Holy Spirit the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him . . .
It has been repeated here many times over - “if we deny him, he will also deny us” - Christians are told to endure sufferings, even sufferings unto death. Yes, he knows are heart - in fact he described our “heart” many times: Gen 6:5 - every intent of the heart was evil continually; Jer 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things; Matt 12:34 - for out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
No I shall not deny Christ, even at gunpoint.
Comment by ZIPLA — 08.28.06 @ 8:45 pm
My son is one years old. I’d “convert” to stay around to raise him.
My heart would know The Truth.
Comment by DarkStar — 08.28.06 @ 9:16 pm
ExPreacherMan,
A true Christian will show the fruits of a conversion in his life. This “one time decision” may have not been a true conversion, just something done at a Harvest Crusade in a moment of psychological pressure. True Christians will die for their Lord, so that they may fulfill in their bodies the sufferings of Christ. Denial of Christ is not the fruit of a true believer.
Matthew 7:26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
Comment by Walt Schulte — 08.28.06 @ 9:19 pm
Convert or DIE!
That was the choice “The Religion of Peace” gave to that Fox News team, Steve Centanni & Olaf Wiig, after kidnapping them in Gaza
Trackback by The View From The Nest — 08.28.06 @ 9:37 pm
As an atheist, I would hope that I had the courage of my convictions to LIE, LIE, LIE about my religion.
‘Cause it doesn’t freakin’ matter.
Comment by anonymous — 08.28.06 @ 9:56 pm
Gunpoint Conversions, Martyrdom, and the Mark of the Beast
Check this out. - La Shawn Barber has a post on her blog that Christians should be checking out. Though it may have become something more than she intended. The post is titled: Gunpoint Conversions and Martyrdom. In thinking about
Trackback by The Great Separation — 08.28.06 @ 10:03 pm
Convert or Die
The two FOX news reporters released from their captors yesterday were only released after they were forced, on tape, to convert to Islam. La Shawn Barber writes:Embrace Islam or die. That would be a simple choice for me, though not an easy one if I had…
Trackback by Everyday Thoughts Collected - By Randy Thomas — 08.28.06 @ 10:10 pm
“Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die?â€
This Christian would first and foremost do all things possible not to end up in such a dire situation. That includes being armed at all times. Read Luke about trading your very garment for a sword and know why old cops call it “dressed”.
If faced with the situation, my first impulse is always to get the gun from the bad guy and use it on him and his. Not as difficult as some may imagine for the determined, trained and fit individual. They like longer guns for that intimidation over there, which means much more leverage advantage than a handgun, incidentally. Rule number one in any situation where someone else is trying to take you prisoner or succeeds in taking you prisoner is to FIGHT, fight IMMEDIATELY and fight hard, do not let them take you to their lair without you doing anything and everything you can to prevent that or at least make it very difficult for them. Gouge eyes. etc.
Finally, all else failing, I’d take the slow and painful death of an Al-Zaqiri style bungled beheading with the dull machete sawoff before ever renouncing Christ, but hey, I do recall Him stating that explicitly in the gospel, don’t you?
Only an idiot would walk about in the Middle East unarmed. Like the “journalists” do. I don’t think that news reporters belong in combat and that the whole “bring the war to the people” bs is a red herring anyway. MSM isn’t reporting, they are absolutely propagandizing. Even Fox.
Good Christian men, Lock and Load, Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
Comment by The Machine — 08.28.06 @ 10:55 pm
Trying to keep on track - I stopped reading the comments after La Shawn’s comment # 6. I’ll go back through them in a bit. - - -
Question! “Christians, what would you do if some maniac held a gun to your head and asked you to deny Christ or die? Would you deny the Savior?” -
I’d have to laugh. Jesus is so real to me. Much more real that this planet of temporary ‘life’.
I hope I would have sense enough to ask two questions.
One: Do they really believe that their murdering me would make anyone in the world run to allah for salvation?
Two: If lust is prohibited in the Koran why are Suicide Bombers enticed by lust of young virginal women to cause them to murder innocent civilians?
I would not expect any answers. But I would KNOW beyond any shadows of any doubts that those questions (or questions like them) might bring doubts to their minds. IF (I say again) IF these ‘terrorists’ really are religiously inclined.
I have a feeling that most of them could give a hoot about allah and just like spilling blood.
Of my ultimate destiny I’ve no doubt. I’ll sit under a rock (is the altar a good sized chunk of marble? that is the way I envision it.) for as long as God says…
Comment by prying1 — 08.29.06 @ 12:31 am
“Without the Holy Spirit the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him . . .”-Zipla
Foolishness indeed. As an agnostic, I would rather die than to convert to any religion.
Comment by Shavonne — 08.29.06 @ 12:31 am
Well Shavonne, wouldn’t that make you as foolish as those you name call? Actually more, since they are confident they will live on while you’d be throwing all you have away. Oooooh…Kaaaa…sure you would.
BTW, I know agnostics. Agnostics are friends of mine Believe me, you’re no agnostic.
Highly pragmatic agnostics don’t martyr themselves. They live to help the other SOB martyr himself.
I believe you is one of those dumb-a** atheists.
Comment by Jim R — 08.29.06 @ 2:01 am
Pardon me for cursing La Shawn. I shouldn’t have said that word ‘atheist’ on your blog.
Comment by Jim R — 08.29.06 @ 2:10 am
OK - I went through the rest of the comments and I could add a lot to what was said Only two cents worth I’ll add:
- 1: #59 - “True Christians will die for their Lord, so that they may fulfill in their bodies the ’sufferings of Christ’.” Read the scriptures again (I Peter 4 & Phil 3) and you will see the suffering is not death but NOT allowing ANY sin into His life. - I’ve yet to meet the man who has gotten there. - I’ll raise my hand first when the question is asked, “Who needs grace?”
- 2: #64 - I’m reminded of Luke: 22:36-38 - There were ONY two swords (approved by Jesus) on the Mount of Olives. Yet of those only one was pulled out to protect Jesus.
Comment by prying1 — 08.29.06 @ 2:53 am
Islam’s long history of forced conversions
Read Andrew Bostom at Front Page mag today, please: Forced conversions in Islamic history are not exceptional—they have been the norm, across three continents—Asia, Africa, and Europe—for over 13 centuries. Orders for conversion were decreed unde…
Trackback by Michelle Malkin — 08.29.06 @ 9:07 am
LaShawn observes the weirdness of our time: that one might be forcibly converted and still say, “I learned a lot of good things about Islam…” from the very Islamofascists who taught it to him at gunpoint.
Pingback by The Anchoress — 08.29.06 @ 9:56 am
What occurred with the Fox reporters is a brilliantly clear example of how utterly destructive diversity and ecumenism are. When one embraces the subjective right and wrong of diversity, and the all roads lead to heaven mantra of ecumenists, one is left with little or no foundation: Why not embrace islam? It just as valid as any other religion, right? The islamics are no more guilty that are the Crusaders (mobilized to rout moslems who had invaded the Holy Land - not the other way around), right?
Unfortunately this is the base of so many who really don’t stand for much of anything - so they fall for everything.
As for me, the question of denouncing Christ is a simple one. I would ask God for a quick end and forgiveness for my sins, as well as those of my attacker.
The contrast of martyrdom is a defining one. A Christian would achieve martyr status for refusing to denounce Christ and losing one’s life as a result. I don’t think anyone reading this needs to be reminded of the perverse idea of martyrdom in the moslem world.
Comment by George — 08.29.06 @ 9:59 am
I am a Jew. And not a very devout one, at that.
But the degree of faith I place in my faith is insignificant compared to the disdain I have for anything false in my life.
If I did “accept” Islam, then Islam would be weaker for it. And Islam is already weaker for its growth and sustenance being so dependent upon fundamentalist rigidity in mandating adherence to it.
How could I look myself in the mirror after “accepting” a belief that is not mine? I suppose that this can be rationalized against the option of losing my life. That argument would be only more compelling in the heat of the moment.
Perhaps that would be my rationalization: Yes, I will “convert” to Islam in the face of your threat, with my vengeance being a weaker Islam for it.
Comment by Reginald Thornton — 08.29.06 @ 10:01 am
This “conversion” bothered me greatly from the very first moment I heard the reports. I prayed for both men. I prayed for their souls, and I prayed for me.
What would I do? Having experienced God’s grace in being saved from non-believers and knowing/seeing the Lord’s saving hand in my life on this earth, I would pray. Pray for the strength to do what God would want me to do. Pray as always with my daily struggle to surrender my will to God. Pray for the enemies before me, pray that even in my physical death (if it came to that)that maybe these enemies could see the true Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ. Pray that even the smallest dot or sliver of light of God’s grace could penetrate those hearts of evil. I would pray that they could come to know God’s forgiveness even for the sin of my death that they might soon commit.
And I would pray that my last breath, gurgle, or scream would be in praise of the Lord.
This life is but a dot compared to the eternity with Christ in heaven.
(I would also pee my pants. (God has a sense of humor after all!!!)
Comment by Judy — 08.29.06 @ 10:06 am
34 Jesus said to him, “Most certainly I tell you that tonight, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.”
35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you.” All of the disciples also said likewise.
and look what happened to him.
Comment by Syberyenta — 08.29.06 @ 10:07 am
#61 - It does matter because eternity is the wrong thing to be wrong about.
When even one of atheism’s top dogs looks at the evidence and determines that there is indeed a Creator, it’s time to stop insisting that “God doesn’t exist because I say so.”
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/
Excellent discussion, all. Thanks for the forum, La Shawn!
Comment by FL Mom — 08.29.06 @ 10:10 am
La Shawn Barber | Gunpoint Conversions and Martyrdom
Pingback by Jack — 08.29.06 @ 10:16 am
I would rather die than deny Jesus. I know a lot of people have said they wouldn’t know until they were in that situation (heaven forbid) and asked the question to convert or die. But for me, it’s not even a choice. God knows my heart, but words do mean something. Jesus is in my heart and with me all the time, so there is no choice or crossing my fingers and saying I’m sorry later. I would rather die.
I am a soon-to-be mother, and I know my decision would still be the same. This little baby inside of me is most precious, but I know that if I could deny Christ just to live this life, I would not be passing on the legacy I want in my family about Christ.
Comment by Starfox5253 — 08.29.06 @ 10:20 am
“Once saved, always saved. I don’t have to work to “keep†my salvation. Yes, even if I denied Christ, God forbid it, he’s still my Savior.”
And they overcame him [the accuser of the brethren] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:11
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6
Think about it, La Shawn, and reconsider. Christians may be given this choice sooner than we imagine possible. Time to start praying for grace now.
Bill
Comment by Wild Bill — 08.29.06 @ 10:33 am
I cannot deny that which I know to be true. Simple as that. It would be hard, but faith is faith. If I believe it, then I believe it. I trust in Him to take care of the details…Afterall, the Navy Seals might be in the next room, sent by God, of course, ready to scoop me up, and deliver me to safety, before the evildoers can get a shot off.:-)
Comment by S. Duncan — 08.29.06 @ 10:36 am
Scripture gives us an example of an attempted “forced conversion” in Daniel 3 where the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar builds a big gold statue and announces that when his orchestra makes a big racket, everyone is to fall down and worship it. Anyone failing to prostrate themselves before this image will be tossed into a fiery furnace. When the dedication begins and the racket breaks out, everyone hits the dirt except for 3 young Jewish men, captives from Jerusalem, who have been serving the king (quite well) as some sort of administrators.
The king confronts these guys (Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego) with their disobedience, asking: “Is it true that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? If you don’t you will be immediately thrown into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”
And the boys reply: “If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if He does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
That’s the kind of response I pray I could make if one of these Islamonazis held a gun to my head. It’s not about me and preserving my sorry self–God in His mercy has preserved me thus far for His purpose. And maybe my death in such circumstances would have the same impact on my captors as Jim Elliot’s death in the Amazon had on his killers–his “martyrdom” eventually led to conversions of formerly bloodthirsty cannibals to Christianity.
And I would probably wet myself, too.
Comment by Tom, the Sunday School Teacher — 08.29.06 @ 10:38 am
A conversion, forced or otherwise, would not be an option for me. If faced with this choice, I would be afraid, but determined to greet it with all available courage. My personal belief in the reality of the gospel and the divinity of Christ lead to no other moral choice.
I have read that the term islam actually means submission. This practice of forced conversion is a sadly telling point about the mindset which it fosters.
At least it would not be crusifixtion or being burned at the stake. Morbid.
Comment by BenW — 08.29.06 @ 10:41 am
I don’t think Jesus would mind you telling a lie to a murderous Muslim maniac to stay alive. Christianity is not a suicide pact. If you thought it would preserve your life and allow you to expose the thugs later, that seems like the smart play. However, if you’re held by Al Qaeda and there is no chance of survival, I’d say screw ‘em. Give them nothing. Go out like that Italian contractor they executed on an Iraqi snuff video, who told them he’d show them how an Italian died.
I’m glad the Fox guys were freed and I’m glad that Centanni is safe but I found his pandering to Islam sickening. What do the Muslims need to do to justify criticism from the politically correct? It doesn’t take a genius to see that Islam is one screwed up religion.
One guy told me over the Internet that he was in the WTC when it was first hit. He got out of the second tower before it got hit and went sprinting away, looking back periodically to see them billowing smoke. He came across a mosque on 2nd Avenue (?) where the Muslims were celebrating the event, to his shock. He said it took him a long time to get over that.
Why would you want to get over it? Why would you want to process the evil acts of Muslims through the PC blender to come up with an alternative view of the event, detached from reality, which gives them a masochistic positive spin? How many jumbo jets do the PC crowd need to fall on them before they wake up and smell the burning jet fuel?
When Muslims say they love death like we love life and claim that is their advantage, that is the most concise definition of an evil faith you can profess. It’s high time we called it like we saw it, instead of making excuses for our attackers.
Tantor
Comment by Tantor — 08.29.06 @ 10:45 am
It is better to die with Christ than to deny him. I would go to my physical death.
Comment by Rick Newman — 08.29.06 @ 10:54 am
Interesting reading all the comments….especially those of fellow moms with children. I think that adds an extra burden for us, but that the Lord is prepared to give us extra strength. I’d like to think that I would never deny the Lord before another person, but honestly can’t say for certain that if my life were on the line, that I wouldn’t at least consider “just saying words” to continue my life here with my children - again, as someone said, to be sure they were continued to be raised as Christians.
That being said, I think it was on Michelle Malkin’s site, that someone pointed out, that this video has been broadcast on Al Jazeera - the entire Arab world has seen their “conversion”. So if they were to publicly recant, the entire Arab world would know, meaning they would be targets for said Arab world. (Have you heard the Muslim penalty for apostasy - their word for recanting? Same as penalty for not converting - death, usually by beheading.) So it is entirely possible that while you might avoid death by “converting”, you could soon be welcoming it by recanting later…
Seems to be the ideal situation would be to rid ourselves of the Islamonazis to begin with…no negotiation with them anyways. Yet, how as a Christian, commanded to pray for those who hate me and persecute me, do I reconsile that? Very deep thoughts for a Tuesday I think. Thanks for keeping us all on our toes LaShawn. Good work as usual!!
Comment by AmandaZ — 08.29.06 @ 10:59 am
The Koran accepts Jesus as a Prophet. Who says you would have to “DENOUNCE” Jesus. Muslims do not denounce Jesus.
Comment by Bridget — 08.29.06 @ 11:01 am
OK, the short, flippant answer:
I would certainly maintain my confession of Jesus as the savior. As a Christian, death or the fear of death should hold no power over me. In reality, I may or may not buckle, but I would pray for the strength and the faith necessary to face death without denying Christ.
Now for the longer explanation:
As many have expressed here, we Christians can not lose our salvation. The Bible is clear about this. But, we will still be judged and those who have sacrificed themselves for Christ (given of their money, time, talent, and even their life) will be rewarded richly. Those of us who were poor in faith will still be saved but our rewards will be less.
What are these rewards? I don’t know. Will it effect us for all of eternity? I don’t know. Am I going to be richly rewarded? I don’t know, but I do know when I have not put my full faith in God and his Son and it scares me to think that I will have to account for that eventually.
As a father of five children, it would be easy for me to say, “I would lie and pretend to convert so that I may provide for my children.” But is that truly putting my faith in God? Can He not take care of my children better than me? If fact, wouldn’t I be doing my children a disservice to show them that faith is so easily discarded in the face of strife? Surely I will still be saved, but then how do I instruct my children to put their total faith in God when I was so quick to denounce Him?
In the end, my faith has never been tested under such dire circumstances, but I would hope that I could maintain it even to the moment of death. I pray to God now that he help me increase my faith so that when I am confronted I will be faithful to Him.
Comment by kbiel — 08.29.06 @ 11:09 am
This issue is all about perspective… God’s perspective.
For non-believers, it is an easy question. Since a non-believer believes that this life is all there is, he or she will do anything to preserve what little time they have on this earth.
For weaker Christians, they will act similar to unbelievers. Although they may profess with their lips, inwardly they doubt their beliefs and still cling to their life on this earth. They will deny God, but ask for his forgiveness later. They will live the rest of their lives with the guilt of this decision.
For stronger Christians, they will realize this for the test that it is. Which is more important, this life on earth or professing our faith in the one true God? How many verses in the Bible ask if you are willing to pick up your cross? You do know what a cross is used for, right? Will you choose this world, or will you choose to follow Christ? This is the question that Christ asks us through the Bible.
Paul himself writes often of his sufferings, and gladly suffers them all for knowing Christ and proclaiming him as savior.
One other poster asked “What about mothers?” I challenge you to find one verse where God tells you to put your children’s wellbeing ahead of Him. There are two things to consider… 1) Do you trust God to provide for your children if you are taken from them (through your spouse, relatives, churchmembers, etc.)?… and 2) What would your children think if they became devout Christians, and then learned of your choice?
When I die, I hope that people will not fixate on how long I’ve lived, but rather on the manner in which I’ve lived. I now live my life for Christ, not for myself.
God bless.
Comment by Dominigan — 08.29.06 @ 11:13 am
I wrote about this yesterday here:
http://www.belch.com/~blog/2006/08/28/muslims-commit-faith-rape-on-hostages/
I honestly don’t know what I would do in this situation- stand up for christianity or try to save my life. I am going to try not to ever be put in that situation. But to true christians, having to publically deny Christ under threat of death has to be as deeply wounding as a sexual assault of the worst kind. Which is why I call it “Faith Rape.”
Comment by BelchSpeak — 08.29.06 @ 11:14 am
LaShawn,
It is easy to say that I would die for my SAVIOR, who died for me. However, that is so much easier said than done. I would love to say that I would die for HIM, however, when faced with my own mortality, and thinking of my family, I have no idea what I would do if some idiot was pointing a gun at me. I am so torn on this. I am strong in my faith, and know without a doubt that I would be in GOD’s presence as soon as I took my last breath, but what of my responsibilities on this earth? We should, however, cast aside worldly things. I honestly cannot tell you what I would do. It is a tough decision that until we are faced with, can not for sure say what we would/would not do.
Comment by Brandi Vinson — 08.29.06 @ 11:26 am
This is a tough question, but one that Jesus answered in Matthew 10: 19-20, “But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”
If God forbid, you ever have to make the good confession under such compulsion, rest in the Holy Spirit and not on your own strength and you will find the power to do what honors God.
Comment by benm — 08.29.06 @ 11:29 am
What Would You Do?
LaShawn Barber has an excellent question today in relation to the Fox News reporters that were released…
Trackback by Prophetic Musings — 08.29.06 @ 11:34 am
My trackback for this post did not work. I said Why does it have to come down to a decision to deny Christ, and live, or die as a martyr? There is a third alternative, lead your captors to Christ. These guys are not theological geniuses. If you have a little knowledge of the Koran, paraticularly the more peaceful verses in the early Suras, you can ask them to explain them to you. Then ask if they believe that everything in the Koran is the absolute truth. You know that they are going to say of course it is…. If they believe what the Koran says in these verses, then explain to them some of the other things that Christ said and did, and see if you can lead them to Christ. You may still get shot, but can you think of a better way to go?
Comment by Don Singleton — 08.29.06 @ 11:34 am
By default, anybody who would point a gun at my head isn’t getting what they’re demanding. Not to be flip, but they could demand I eat a twinkie or else shoot and I’m not eating the twinkie. Yes, I’m stubborn. Think holding a gun to my head is going to change that?
That position answers the author’s question, yet not for the religious reasons others have. If he asked me to deny Christ, he’d get spit on, too … along with a few choice words.
To flip the question, what if that person holding the gun were demanding you to convert TO Christianity and you were’t already?
Comment by Rosetta Stoned — 08.29.06 @ 12:03 pm
Even Saint Peter denied our Lord when he was under threat. And that was after our Lord warning him so that he could have prayed and prepared.
I am grateful that at least gross pride is not one of my vices, so I know that without God’s help I most certainly would fail the test as well.
This is something that is part of my daily prayers in fact, not just as preparation in the event I face a trial of my faith, but moreso for those that are already being put to the test, that the Lord shows mercy upon them and strengthens their faith so that they may bear the cross set upon them.
I believe our only hope of passing the test is to have offered our Lord prayer and sacrifice continously in advance, not only for ourself but for all the faithful, that He might show us mercy and keep us strong should we be put to the test.
Because He is the only thing that will get us through it.
Comment by Kathleen G — 08.29.06 @ 12:04 pm
I doubt that I would have the strength or courage to defy the captors and choose certain and immediate death. However, I am certain that Christ abiding in me would give me sufficient strength, courage or anything else needed at that moment to proclaim Christ and deny Allah or any other false god.The prospect of living the rest of my life, which may amount to minutes or years, having denied the very One who gave me life in the first place, would not be worth living. It is very easy to sit at a computer and say, as Peter did, ” Lord, I would never deny you!”, not being blindfolded, cuffed, with an AK 47 flash suppressor pressed against your skull. This is the point of separation between believers in Christ and non-believers. You see, once you accept Christ, you never walk alone again. Non-believers cannot grasp this concept, because it is not real to them. But for those who know the living God, having Him abiding in them, constantly convicting their spirit, it would be unconscionable to sit in front of a camera and announce to the world, with finger pointed toward heaven, ” I now worship Allah.”
Comment by j.y. — 08.29.06 @ 12:08 pm
I think this depends on the situation. If I were a lone hostage and had only my momentary situation to think about, then I’d pretend to convert if I thought it was a useful strategy in getting myself released. If, however, our country were taken over by these barbarians and we were all told to convert or die, then I think as a group, we would need to stick together and resist, even if that meant sacrificing our lives. Not sure if that makes sense, but if you think about it, this is how Islam has taken over so much of the world, by mass forced conversions. There is strength in unity, and the “group” should resist.
In Judaism, there are three instances in which we are commanded to sacrifice our lives: 1) if we are coerced to murder someone; 2) if we are coerced to engage in illicit sexual acts; 3) if we are coerced to bow down to idols or accept a false G-d. I imagine the Muslim penchant for converting infidels would fall under #3. However, in the Inquisition, many Jews converted to Christianity in order to save their lives and they were forgiven. I think it is a case of doing the best you can under the circumstances.
It is an interesting question, LaShawn, but of course, none of us knows what we would do if we were really faced with such a horrible choice.
Let’s pray that we vanquish the Muslims before they kill us all.
Comment by Batyah — 08.29.06 @ 12:10 pm
The decision to convert or die is different for everyone. However, as a female, the difference becomes more than temporarily denying Christ or accepting Muhammed in His place. As a Muslim female in a Shari’ah community, all freedoms are lost. There is no freedom to read, to write, to learn anything not ordained as NEEDED by the Mullah or Imam. I could not live like that and never will be able to, but by ‘converting’ I may have a chance to escape to freedom. If I weren’t stoned first for any number of crimes against Islam. Like saying hello to someone strange, showing too much ankle, refusing to marry a Muslim male (Muslim males can marry women of any religion but a Muslim female can only marry a Muslim male so would the marriage of a female who converted be recognized by the Muslim community if her husband were an infidel?) yep, even if I converted I would either be free through escape or dead within weeks because I was raised to be a woman, not a slave.
Comment by Cheryl H — 08.29.06 @ 12:13 pm
When I heard the news of this forced conversion to Islam, I had to examine my heart. What would I do if forced at gunpoint to convert to Islam? I came to the conclusion that I would declare myself a follower of Jesus Christ, and suffer the consequences. I hope I am never put to the test, but this incident has served to make us think and examine ourselves, and that may be a blessing to us all.
Greg
Comment by Greg Benson — 08.29.06 @ 12:14 pm
I thank God that so many Bible-believing Christians are commenting on this post. You’ve covered areas I didn’t get to cover in this post. Your faith and witness touch me across time and space. I pray that the Holy Spirit, through this post and your words, changes hearts today..
Comment by La Shawn — 08.29.06 @ 12:17 pm
I thought these reporters were released “UNHARMED”?
Don’t tell me the MSM is lying to us?
There are very few things GOD would negatively judge anyone for when done at gun point. The fact you that your are forced at gun point to renounce and convert, makes the renunciation and conversion a lie.
The reporters never claims to be saints. I forgive them, I am sure God does too.
Comment by Steve H USA — 08.29.06 @ 12:21 pm
As a faithful Catholic I would look to the guidance of the Apostles and all of the other martyred saints and pray to God for the strength to declare my faithfulness to Him.
Comment by John — 08.29.06 @ 12:23 pm
Jesus Never Wants Those Who Claim to Love Him to Deny Him. (Gun Point Conversion to Islam.)
So I’m always saying Islam is a sick cult. And every now and then we see the sickest parts on full display. I can’t find a video tape of a high profile non-Christian or non-Jew being kidnapped and forced to convert to either Christianity…
Trackback by Independent Conservative — 08.29.06 @ 12:31 pm
A man’s mind changed against his will
Is that man with the same opinion still.
Comment by Crockett — 08.29.06 @ 12:33 pm
I’m rather concerned about the fact that I can easier make a choice to sacrifice my life for my God than I can be a “living sacrifice” (Rom 12:1) every day.
Comment by Snowed In — 08.29.06 @ 12:40 pm
#88 “For non-believers, it is an easy question. Since a non-believer believes that this life is all there is, he or she will do anything to preserve what little time they have on this earth.”
Fairly glib statement to make. As if it a deity is required to have morals.
I am not devoutly religious, but I would hope that I would have the fortitude to stand up for ANY of my beliefs and not renounce my true beliefs at gunpoint. But I’ll never know unless it happens.
Being strong enough to die for what you believe in does not require religion, only a belief that there are things in this world greater than yourself.
Comment by Alan — 08.29.06 @ 1:03 pm
Convert to Islam or die
Examining the recent release of two Fox News journalists forced at gunpoint to convert to Islam, Andrew G. Bostom writes about Islam’s history of forced conversions: Given this enduring (and ignoble) historical legacy, it remains to be seen whether co…
Trackback by Brain Shavings — 08.29.06 @ 1:08 pm
I truly enjoy your perspectives. I do not expect the following article to be published in its entirety nor do I expect or want any personal recognition. My concern is that several of your responders incorrectly espoused incorrect interpretation of scriptural judgment. This obviously disturbs me that so many Christians misunderstand God’s directives concerning our judgment responsibilities. Please feel free to utilize any part of this article (if you agree with the scriptural premise) to address this misconception. I wrote this article in response to a men’s study that I participated in and actually led to my voluntary disassociation with this church because of their continued ecumenical position and their opposition to what I believe is a true position of proper judgment for Christians.
God Bless you in your work
Tom
Is it right to Judge?
In this current societal atmosphere that is swift to label individuals intolerant or hateful if they vocally object to so-called progressive attitudes or progressive issues embraced by the liberal media elite and the emerging liberal religious community, it is imperative that Biblical exegesis (critical explanation or interpretation) is not compromised. Let us keep three scriptures in the forefront when identifying themes – Acts 17:11; 2Peter 3:16 (Chapter – Day of the Lord warning – unlearned or ignorant people and unstable or vacillating people that wrest or pervert or distort scripture); 2Timothy 3:16 (Chapter Last Days – description of people in the Last days – Paul tells Timothy how to cope with these times – Key word here is All in the 16th verse – doctrine (learning and teaching as from an instructor), reproof (conviction and evidence), correction (rectification), and instruction (disciplinary correction, chastening, or chastisement). Growth oriented churches such as Rick Warren’s Saddleback church disregard this verse. Their message as directed by Warren is to only provide a positive message that overlooks the warnings and criticisms (judgments) throughout scripture. Saving souls is not about a methodology that provides comfort and entertainment that results in church growth; rather it is one that provides education of the entire Word of God that equips us for the Great Commission and maintains the purity of Christ’s church. When we presume that our ideas for a healthy church are better than God’s plan and directives for Christ’s church we are attempting to elevate or equate ourselves with God just as Satan did in the Garden of Eden. Sometimes it is not what someone says but what he does not say that should raise red flags. A verse must be interpreted or understood in the context of the chapter and in the totality of scripture. The Jehovah Witnesses are the frontrunners in twisting scripture by taking verses out of context to support an organizational position. A quick example: “The Father is greater than I†(John 14:28)– This statement by Christ is used to support the Jehovah Witness Organization’s position that the Trinity is a misrepresented and erroneous doctrinal position. By itself it does cause one to ponder but within the entire context of scripture it poses no quandary. Thus, with a basis established for scripture examination, let us determine if a theme exists in scripture that directs us not to judge.
First, let us review the Greek word most often translated “judge†or “judgment†– krino. On the one hand, it means to distinguish, to decide, to determine, to conclude, to try, to think, and to call in question. This is the path that God wants His followers to follow and embrace. With this concept of judgment acknowledged, we can then determine compliance to Biblical truth. However, on the other hand, it also means to condemn, to sentence and to punish. We recognize that these are God’s prerogatives and not ours (Romans 12 – Vengeance is mine).
What does scripture declare concerning judging? Jesus commanded, “Judge righteous judgment†(John 7:24). Jesus said, “Thou hast rightly judged†(Luke 7:43). The apostle Paul said, “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say†(1 Cor. 10:15). Paul said, “He that is spiritual judgeth all things†(1 Cor. 2:15).
Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets…. you will know them by their fruits†(Matthew 7:15,16). This is a warning and command from our Lord. How could we “beware†and how could we know that they are “false prophets†if we did not judge? The apostle Paul admonished believers, “Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK THEM which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple†(Romans 16:17,18). This apostolic command could not be obeyed were it not right to judge. God wants us to know His Word and then test all teachers and teaching by it (remember the Bereans). The apostle John wrote, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (test, judge) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world†(1 John 4:1). We must judge by God’s Word, not by what appeals to human reasoning as many things seem good to human judgment but are false to the Word of God.
One of the most frequently quoted scriptures regarding judgment (and misapplied) is Matthew 7:1; “Judge not, that ye be not judgedâ€. Let’s read the entire passage – verse 1 through 5. Notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite and not to those who sincerely want to discern whether a teacher or teaching is true or false to God’s Word. It is not a prohibition against honest judgment but rather a solemn warning against hypocritical judgment. In fact, the last statement in verse 5 commands sincere judgment – “Then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother eyeâ€. If we take a verse or part of verse out of its setting, we can make the Word of God appear to teach the very opposite of what it really does teach (remember 2Peter). Many who piously quote, “Judge not†out of context in order to defend that which is false to God’s Word – do not see their own inconsistency in thus judging those who would obey God’s Word about judging that which is untrue to the Bible. It is tragic that so much that is anti-Scriptural has found undeserved shelter behind a misuse of this Scripture. The reason Christendom today is becoming paralyzed by Modernism frankly is because Christians have not obeyed the command of God’s Word to judge and separate from false teachers and false teaching. Physical health is maintained by separation from disease and germs. Spiritual health is maintained by separation from germs of false doctrine. The greatest peril of our day is not too much judging, but too little judging of spiritual falsehood.
Scripture does identify limitations of human judgment. Romans 14 tells us not to judge one’s eating habits (vegetarian