Update IV (9/8): Diana West writes:
Five years after the attack on Pearl Harbor, World War II was over, Japan and Germany vanquished. Five years after September 11, we still speculate as to who, or what, our enemy is. We have had a brief fling with “Islamic fascism” — a phrase that, in its 20th-century-European political connotations, is misleading about jihad’s 1300-year-old religious roots. But now, in the president’s just-released “National Strategy for Combating Terrorism,” we’re back to plain vanilla “extremist ideology.” We seem to find a generic comfort in being vague.
Not me — as even the occasional reader of this column likely knows. The “who” are Muslim jihadists; the “what” is Muslim jihad. There is violent jihad (terrorism), and there is “quiet jihad,” the peaceful consequence of the demographic shift of Muslims into the West. Both, however, result in Islamization — the spread of Islamic law. This is a dire threat to what could have once upon a time been summed up by the word “us.”
Emphasis added.
Update III (9/8): A good question from commenter and blogger Big Mo:
“I would like to know why we all went nuts over South Africa’s loathsome apartheid in the 1980s, demanding that they change everything about their society and culture, but we’re seemingly content to bend over and take it from radical Muslims who have absolutely no intention of integrating into Western society. They instead want to force Western society to conform to Islam.”
———————————————————————————————————–
I honestly don’t know what’s worse: Muslims and foreigners who want this free and wonderful country to change to suit them, or our tendency to prostrate ourselves before them and concede to their ridiculous demands.
Back in June I wrote about Muslims in Maryland who wanted their religious holidays on the school calendar. Today I had the displeasure of reading about public swimming pool policy changes based on Muslim sensibilities, safety standards be damned.
Utterly stupid, and I don’t often use the word stupid. It’s a lazy way to express frustration, but at this point, I don’t care.
If Muslims had their way, sharia would be the law of the land (think I’m exaggerating?), and homosexuals, for example, might be stoned to death or hanged. The bozo bloggers who complained about an “offensive” sentence in this post would have a lot more to worry about than a black woman blogger who thinks they’re hysterically humorous as well as hypocritical. 
Barbaric Muslim honor killings are taking place in western Europe right now. (Also see Britain examines “honor killings” and Honor Thy Father — Or Else.)
In the United States, taxpayers are supporting Islamofascist sympathizers.
Blogger Debbie Schlussel frequently covers “Dearbornistan” follies in the for-now great state of Michigan. In 2003, 52 of 53 football players at Fordson High School were Muslim. Hmm…an all-American team? I can almost hear PC-supporting doofuses screeching, “So what?” But I find it alarming.
That’s not even a fraction of what’s out there, people. I’ve read stories about public school children reading from the Koran (but not the Bible) and Muslim enclaves in this free and civilized country that want to incorporate sharia into our system of jurisprudence. The nerve of a religious group that still enslaves human beings in this day and age…
No matter what anyone says, never believe that “all cultures are equally valid.” (Intelligent people don’t.)
That is pure BS.
(Newspaper image from Truth and Grace)
Addendum: Another beheaded journalist.
Update: Here’s an amazingly non-liberal post at The Huffington Post.
Update II: From frequent commenter Heliotrope:
A minor point, but it sticks in my craw: When I was still teaching, I had a Muslim student in public school who was permitted to leave the class to offer his prayers. A space was provided for him to store his carpet and to face Mecca.
Meanwhile, the local community got exercised over a group of Young Life kids who ate lunch together. They didn’t like the fact that the kids joined hands and quietly said grace.
I was required to spend time with the Muslim to fill in for any instruction he missed. (He left during tests and could have consulted more than guidance from Allah.)
But the Young Life students were treated as an aberrant force bent on infecting the school community. Finally, they were ordered to pray individually and “discretely.â€
Must Christians adopt the sword and their own form of Sharia law to regain respect?
Another commenter writes:
Another note about the PUBLIC high school, Fordson High, in Dearborn, MI…the cafeteria lunch food is all prepared halal-style (or however it’s properly termed). In addition, I know of a woman who gave birth at Oakwood Hospital which is also in Dearborn. She ended up having a Muslim roommate. She was told her husband could not stay in the room with her and their new baby because it went against the “roommate’s†religion.
I live in another Detroit suburb and have in this past year run across women both at Target and Borders wearing burka’s and walking behind their husbands while shopping. To see that extreme practice close up and in such “all-American public places†is very unsettling…
Darn right it’s unsettling, and I don’t care what any PC hack says about it. What Muslims choose to do in their own homes is their business. But when my country starts to change to accomodate Muslims’ religious sensibilities, while treating Christianity — one of the pillars of western civilization, our whole way of life — like a loathsome disease, it’s time for action.
Enough talk.
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But we must be OPEN to other cultures VALUES. We can’t force them to change to our values. That would be wrong. We must be accepting. We must change it is wrong to stop them from having 4 wifes. Just because we send parents to jail for abusing (spanking) their children doesn’t mean we should stop their culture of keeping their family Honor. You know that all other cultures are BETTER then our brutal culture.
Sorry, I can’t go on. I sometimes try and think like the multicultural ^*(&%$#(9. But I can’t keep it up for long. I find it necessary to think and remember history and multiculturalist never do that.
As the Dutch are saying now. Become Dutch. Accept Dutch culture. OR LEAVE.
LaShawn,
Soon after 911, I read a book called “Teach Yourself Islam”, by Ruqaiyyah Maqsood, a teacher and practicing Muslim. If you have time, you should read it. It is very interesting to see how many of the items, such as divorce, jihad, polygamy and capital punishment (for former Muslims who speak against Islam) are explained.
Give us a sample of what’s in the book, Belle.
This is why it’s difficult for me to believe anyone who claims that there’s no organized (however loosely) attempt to subjugate Christianity in this country, and it’s operating under the thin veil of “fairness” and “understanding”.
Real understanding would bring a far different outcome.
What was wrong with the 2003 football team?
We’re going to have to get mad people and quit the PC stuff in this country before it’s too late. It takes guts to put your name and face to issues that can cause retaliation such as the hate mail LaShawn gets or the threats that Michelle Malkin gets. We are each responsible for the future of this country. The illegal immigrant issue is a prime example. We will be called racists if we say ship them back home but ya know what, I’d rather be called a racist than accept the assault by illegals on this country of our values and our laws. We’ve let it go on far too long and now our very way of life is threatened. Now come the Muslims and while they are a small minority, if we allow them to assert their religious law on us, our children and grandchildren will pay a price we cannot even fathom.
Write to your elected representatives. Watch your community … your schools …your city council actions, etc. and take action before it’s too late.
Thanks, La Shawn. This morning’s post woke me up more surely than any cup of coffee. God Bless.
You’re right on target, sis. We’ve got leaders and former leaders who advocate terror and destruction coming to this country on the day BEFORE we remember what happened to us 5 years ago, and all the tragedy TV media can report on and people here are interested in is how much poop baby Suri did in her diaper!! God help us!
I often travel to Muslim areas for the purpose of knowing first hand what the interaction is between Muslims and other religions. I have lived among the people and paid close attention what goes on in their daily lives. My trips last several weeks and among the places I have stayed are Indonesia, Thailand, Australia, Fiji, Egypt, Turkey, Morocco, Spain, Italy, Germany, England, Holland, Sweden, Croatia, Serbia, and many places in the US. In every place I have visited, Christians and Jews are under some form of assault as infidels. In many areas, the local police have permitted the implementation of Sharia law to be ignored. This is particularly true in Toronto, Stockholm, Munich, Paris, London, Madrid, Java, Detroit, and a multitude of suburbs and small towns across the US and in Europe.
In Egypt, Mubarak sends hundreds of heavily armed troops to “watch” certain Mosques on Friday. The King of Morocco has no illusions about radical Islam and he keeps a heavy thumb on the religion, as does the government of Turkey and the government of Thailand.
The only Western government that is realistic about the threat is Australia. There, the government has told the Muslims to adapt or get out. Australia knows that the largest Muslim population and in many respects the most radical population is just above its northern shores in Indonesia.
US and Western European liberals are stuck on stupid. They believe that they can negotiate peace and persuade radical Muslims to negotiate their fundamental religious beliefs.
I have met a lot of easy going Muslims. They drink alcohol, eat pork, don’t pray to Mecca, etc. They are MINO’s: Muslim In Name Only. But if you really lean on them, the Muslim brotherhood usually comes roaring out as a blood bond.
This religion is largely practiced by seasoned traders. They know exactly how to reassure you while taking you to the cleaners. But when the targets of their conversion jihad are not very sophisticated, they are hardly reluctant to use the sword.
Australia has placed informers in the Mosques and keeps a very close tabs on the Muslim community. Still they have huge problems. Not long ago, Lebanese immigrants raised Cain over how Australian women were dressed on the beaches in Sydney. This led to citizens confronting one another.
People need to follow the local news around the world to know what is really happening. The PC press in the US and Reuters and the AP will never report the facts.
According to this book Muslims believe that theft (unless for food or a necessity) requires amputation of the hand. Capital punishment is allowed for adultery, and for former Muslims speaking out against Islam. Drunkenness is punishable by flogging. A man can divorce his wife by declaring his intentions 3 times in three months. A woman can divorce a man only by appearing in front of a religious court and using certain guidelines. It seems like there is a big disparity between what is written in this book and what seems to happen in real life.
Couldn’t wearing all those heavy clothes and coverings in a swimming pool weigh you down and make one MORE susceptible to DROWNING???
I’m just saying….
BTW, how come the Muslim football players can have a prayer at a school sponsored football game, but the Christian/Judeo kids can’t? The really ironic thing about all of this is that if the Islamic fundamentalists succeed with their Jihad, the liberals (who seem so supportive of the terrorists) will be the first to go. Scary for all us.
That’s one reason the “no street clothes” policy is in effect at public pools. The first time a Muslim drowns because her heavy burqa dragged her down, expect public pools to hire more lifeguards or “Muslim sensitive” lifeguards.
Courtesy of the taxpayers…
Such putrid PC accomodations defy common sense. Something an ordinarily reasonable person would do for SAFETY is considered offensive to Muslims. What’s that saying about hell in a handbasket?
LaShawn,
Our country is turning into a tolerant nation of fools. This frankly goes well beyond BS. The muslim kid did not deserve to have “special” rights. All the other kids had no problem obeying the rules. If that child would have drowned because of his excessive clothing, then the parents would have been ready to file a lawsuit. I don’t understand how some people are able to blur the lines between “equal” rights and “special rights”. This is a perfect example of tolerance out of control sad too say.
#10- I meant to say that it seems like there is a big disparity between what is written in this book about how peace loving, forgiving and fair Islam is and what seems to be the reality. It something you need to read to really understand.
Did anyone see the hospital burqa now being used in England? I tell you it is a bedpan nightmare!!!!
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:u-olc93sDv8J:www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2006-09-05-hospital-gown_x.htm+hospital+burqa&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
I don’t understand people moving to this country and then refusing to “get with the program”….why don’t they just stay home? Love it or leave it.
I read an article from the BBC about two boys in Iran (they were 16 & 18, if I’m not mistaken) who were whipped, flogged, and hung in a public square for having sex with each other. That’s right, just for being gay. Like any article about savagery, it made my blood boil (as did the fact that the BBC chose to post pictures of the boys being executed, something I thought was unnecessary).
You can bet that humanitarian groups and gay civil rights groups weren’t being very “tolerant” in their outrage. Those who speak of multiculturalism obviously don’t take the time to consider the cultures they want to accept. I don’t mind a woman who wishes to cover her head with a scarf or people who want to pray to Allah five times a day. It’s brutality that I’m against.
And I hope no one out there puts Christians on par with Muslims. Rude though some can be about the subject, at most they want to convert gays, not kill them.
I totally understand where you are coming from. If the public school systems don’t allow the Bible in the classroom, then they shouldn’t allow the Koran. Or the Torah. If religion is going to be taught in public schools, then all religions need to be taught.
I don’t think Americans should have to learn Spanish to keep their jobs. I think spanish speakers should have to learn English to get a job.
As far as Muslims holidays? My stomach turned on that. I’m not for celebrating religious holidays let alone Muslim religious holidays.
Why is Islam making inroads into our society? Blind leading the blind. To the unsaved, any Peace is prefereable to being at peace with God. So every nutty religion that promises Peace on human terms, even Islam, is considered “respectable”.
I’ve lost friends over this.
“Oh, please don’t offend anyone by telling them that they are going to Hell if they don’t believe in Jesus Christ!”
I’d rather risk offending and see Heaven more fully populated.
I don’t understand people moving to this country and then refusing to “get with the programâ€â€¦.why don’t they just stay home? Love it or leave it.
Perhaps because in their country of origin, they don’t get to choose things like what to wear, so they want to come to a country where they have that option?
I don’t see how wanting to wear clothing in a swimming pool is a subjugation of Christianity. It seems dumb to me — I mean, you can buy modest bathing suits that look like wet suits, and some even come with little dress things to put over them, and surely they’re better for swimming than normal clothes — but I wouldn’t be offended as an American if someone wanted to swim in swimming pants rather than swimming trunks. How is allowing someone else to wear something different than traditional American swimwear an attempt to institute sharia law? If I’m reading correctly, they still have to put up with everybody else wearing bikinis, or stay home to protect their sensitive eyes, and that’s fine by me.
I also don’t see the problem with a Muslim majority football team. Why is that at odds with an “all-American” team? Are Muslim faith and American citizenship mutually exclusive? Okay, so a select group of Muslim teams chose offensive names — that’s nothing new in sports in this country. I remember a few years ago, the latest wave of pressure to change “anti-Native American” names. I’m sure some team names are offensive to Native Americans, and some of them were changed because of public demand; same as with the stupid Muslim team names.
Obviously, I have a problem with honor killings; and I think that public schools should teach major sections from many major religious texts. I know in my New York public high school we were assigned readings from the Koran, the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Bhagavad Gita, and some Buddhist writings, depending on which country and which historical period we were learning about at the time.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I never claimed wearing a burqa in a pool was a “subjugation of Christianity.” My point is that we are dropping safety standards to idiotically low levels to accomdodate a religion’s laws. People have “freedom” to wear what they want in the U.S. with reasonable restrictions, and those restrictions apply to Muslims. You can’t wear whatever you want in a public pool, for crying out loud. As I said in a previous comment, as soon as some burqa-clad Muslim drowns, the taxpayers will bear the burden of safety restrictions above and beyond what has worked just fine in this country for years.
The same happens with illegal aliens from third world countries like Mexico. Some lived in filth and squalor back home, and bring filth and squalor with them, including diseases, to the United States. Because they jumped the border, with no regard for law abidingness, they go through no medical screenings.
About the “Native American” (as someone born in America, I’m a native American, too, by the way) team names supposedly offensive to American Indians, that was a mostly bored white liberal movement. American Indians themselves didn’t seem all that offended with team names like “Redskins.”
I have serious problems with a majority Muslim public high school or college football team or a majority Muslim anything in America. No convoluted reasons why. I just don’t like it. I think it bodes ill for our already weak-spined, accomodationist stance in the age of Muslim global terrorism. So-called separation of church and state is set in stone for the Christian faith. You think Muslim majorities will put up with that? Please!
Really? In my area, there were lots of protests by whatever term you’d rather me use in place of “Native Americans.” Anyway, I just don’t see why law-abiding Muslim citizens, with a strict moral code, are bad even for a nation suffering from an ‘accomodationist’ stance. I prefer anyone with a moral dedication and an ability to play the game to be given a chance, especially over the stereotypical immoral football players who have the real weak spines.
I’m eager to read about “Native American”-led — as opposed to white liberal-led — protests against offensive team names. Do you mind giving me a general idea of your location so I can look for a news story? – Admin
Alexandra,
Law-abiding citizens of any religion who keep a strict moral code is not a problem. It’s just that those of a certain faith have a track record of brutally forcing their ethical code on others. Cf. the dress code of women on Australian beaches.
Alexandra, they don’t want to just control their own actions and beliefs, they want to force other people to adhere to their belief systems. These issues at the beaches, pools and schools are just the beginning. Their jihad is to turn the world into a muslim world. And if you would look a little closer at the football team, you would see that they are PRAYING, something Christians and Jews are prevented from doing at public school.
Did the all-Muslim football team have cheerleaders? What did they wear? Did the families of Muslim girls allow them to try out?
The part that disturbs me is not so much that folks want to practice their faith as much as they want to force the rest of us to practice their faith and its inherent misogyny–but only when it suits them and inconveniences the rest of us. The football players broke their fast for Ramadan to win football games, surely girls can wear a modified swimming costume. And while they go on about the need to “protect” Muslim girls from male eyes, they don’t respect “infidel” girls at all (see also the epidemic of violence toward women in Sweden and Norway by Muslim teenage boys). Pah.
There’s plenty of countries with sharia law imposed; the U.S. doesn’t need to be one of them.
Well, I have grown up around and competed in competitive swimming. I have likewise taught swimming for years. There really is no significant safety risk when it comes to swimming fully clothed. Wet clothing will add a few pounds to you and some drag, but it is not much different from the individual actually weighing those extra pounds. If you are a competent swimmer, you may not move around as smoothly as you otherwise would, but it adds no significant drowning risk. If you not a competent swimmer, you shouldn’t be in deep water without close supervision.
Our reason for requiring bathing suits was for the most part maintaining appropriateness based on standards for swimming attire. It really looks bad to have a bunch of folks swimming in street clothes. Also, cotton clothing tends to hold in soap from the wash and that excess soap may reduce the time it takes for the water to become murky.
I have faced numerous situations in the school environment whereas boys refuse to wear Speedos at swimming meets and adolescent girls refuse to swim in classes unless they can wear t-shirts. The t-shirt thing amazed me because in their warped sense of modesty, they fail to understand why wet t-shirt contests are popular.
Of course in public schools, I have no choice but to accommodate (school administrators are wusses) and I had to require that if they wear t-shirts, they must wear a bathing suite under them. And these are Christian girls.
I recall a Hispanic girl whose parents were very religious. She wore a skirt down to her ankles every day. Her parents sent a note to the school stating that the girl was not allowed to dress in gym clothing, whether it be shorts or warm-ups. The note specifically stated that doing is a sin and that God will punish females who dress like males. The result was that the girl wore a long skirt to gym everyday with no penalty. What could we do?
I have had Muslim girls in swim classes and they did participate fully dressed. This dress included nylon warm-up pants, long sleeved shirts, and swimming caps. It really didn’t bother me, especially since Muslim girls tend to be sweethearts and among the most well behaved students, along with Asian girls.
I think that if full bodied clothing is important, the Muslim parents must make the greatest effort to accommodate. A little investment can allow for something suitable to them and the people in charge of the swimming pool.
http://www.jelbab.com/product.asp?prdID=400415
Whenever we
A minor point, but it sticks in my craw: When I was still teaching, I had a Muslim student in public school who was permitted to leave the class to offer his prayers. A space was provided for him to store his carpet and to face Mecca.
Meanwhile, the local community got exercised over a group of Young Life kids who ate lunch together. They didn’t like the fact that the kids joined hands and quietly said grace.
I was required to spend time with the Muslim to fill in for any instruction he missed. (He left during tests and could have consulted more than guidance from Allah.)
But the Young Life students were treated as an aberrant force bent on infecting the school community. Finally, they were ordered to pray individually and “discretely.”
Must Christians adopt the sword and their own form of Sharia law to regain respect?
#21. Alexandra notes: I know in my New York public high school we were assigned readings from the Koran, the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Bhagavad Gita, and some Buddhist writings, depending on which country and which historical period we were learning about at the time.
Alexandra, you have knowingly or accidentally exposed the paucity of public education. How long would it take for an “average” teacher to have a solid, but general understanding of the Old Testament? The New Testament? The Bhagavad Gita? The Koran? The teachings of the Buddha?
When articles of faith are reduced to a few sound bites for the high school classroom they are likely to lose all semblance of religious meaning. Furthermore, they are offered up by an instructor who, in all likelihood, is little more than a non-believer.
Liberals are always quick to note that graveyards have been filled with people who had religious differences. But how blind those same liberals become when a militant religious threat crests the hill.
Islam does not want acceptance of multiculturalism, they want only their culture, their religion, their law. Islam is evil. Until/unless people open their eyes to this evil they will be writing their own death sentence in this world and the next. Islam is a backward religion set to eliminate all the advances of Western civilization. Islam is in a war against the modernity of the west.
A person (culture) cannot rise upward while forcing another down. The treatment of the female gender by those of the Islamic religion(culture) is an abomination. It is impossible to advance as a people while holding back half of their human capital. Too much energy, effort, assets are spent keeping women down, 2nd class, subservient, property.
Why feminists in the Western world don’t rise up and fight this threat to womenhood I will never understand. As a Christian, conservative, feminist I understand all too clearly. Most feminists worship at the altar of abortion. Too bad they don’t realize that if Islam wins, there will be no abortion except the excessively late-term beheadings of all infidels.
If that little Muslim girl was truly free like other little girls she didn’t just want to enjoy a swim with her friends, but I am sure she also wished for a bathing suit just like her friends were wearing. But if she wore a suit borrowed from a friend her father or brothers or other male relative would be required to murder her for offending their honor. What a great religion! (scarcism)
Why must Muslim women be covered? For their own modesty? One can dress modestly without a burqa. Or because Muslim men don’t want (trust) other Muslim men to look at their wives, sisters, mothers, daughters? I don’t appreciate the lack of body cover in fashion this day. I don’t care to have the flesh of another involuntarily forced into my daily view, but I am more offended by the women in burqas. It is not religiously inspired modesty, but subjugation of women by men.
Another note about the PUBLIC high school, Fordson High, in Dearborn, MI… the cafeteria lunch food is all prepared halal-style (or however it’s properly termed). In addition, I know of a woman who gave birth at Oakwood Hospital which is also in Dearborn. She ended up having a Muslim roommate. She was told her husband could not stay in the room with her and their new baby because it went against the “roommate’s” religion.
I live in another Detroit suburb and have in this past year run across women both at Target and Borders wearing burka’s and walking behind their husbands while shopping. To see that extreme practice close up and in such “all-American public places” is very unsettling…
Belle:
Alexandra, they dont want to just control their own actions and beliefs, they want to force other people to adhere to their belief systems. These issues at the beaches, pools and schools are just the beginning.
As the laws are about more inclusive, not exclusive, dress, I find that jump a big one to make. I also agree with Shade on the unlikely event of more drowning or suing. I was a lifeguard for many years at a public pool, and even if a child was more likely to go into distress while swimming fully clothed, you would still follow the exact same procedures for helping them, and the clothes wouldn’t really inhibit anything you would do to save them. There’s really no more likelihood of suing and settling than there are with normal bathing suit-clad children, at least that I can think of. If a child goes into distress, you do what you are trained to do, and if you follow the procedures accurately you are legally pretty safe. As Shade noted, there are full-coverage suits more appropriate than street clothes, not just for Muslims — I’ve seen them marketed towards Christians as well. If full-body coverage was important to me, I’d invest in one of those, simply because it would be a drag to wear sopping wet clothes.
Heliotrope:
Alexandra, you have knowingly or accidentally exposed the paucity of public education. How long would it take for an average teacher to have a solid, but general understanding of the Old Testament? The New Testament? The Bhagavad Gita? The Koran? The teachings of the Buddha?
Not long at all. We were not studying these documents the same way theologians do; we studied them to grasp a beginner’s understanding of major world religions. The intention of us reading religious texts was not to provide us with a complete spiritual knowledge of each religion, but rather to give us some idea of what the major beliefs and tenets of each religion are. We read them the same way we read excerpts of Macchiavelli — they are a snapshot of a culture, and they can’t be fully understood without intense study, but that doesn’t mean that studying them at any level less than full intensity is inappropriate. They were an important window into cultures that cannot be explained without including literary and religious influence.
Judy, I often struggle with accepting the burqa as well:
It is not religiously inspired modesty, but subjugation of women by men.
However, as I believe that people are free to believe what they choose, and I know several women who willingly wear a chador and feel freed by it, I settle my grudge with the burqa by opposing only forced wearing of it. I have several Orthodox Jewish friends who wear wigs to school to cover their hair, and scarves at home, and I can’t imagine any God who would be displeased at me feeling the wind blowing in the hair He gave me but it’s their hair, not mine. All of my friends who wear the chador say that they enjoy how it exempts them from sexual comments on the street, and how it marks them as “pure” women so that there are no questions as to their intentions in any given situation. I personally prefer to wear jeans and to make my intentions known if the need arise, but I’m fine with them wearing it on their sleeves, so to speak, if it makes them more comfortable. Sometimes, it is inspired by religious modesty, and while I don’t agree that modesty needs to be carried out to the furthest degree, I’m also not offended if someone chooses to do so.
#32 Alexandra: I take exception to the idea that a hit and run exposure to religion, culture or surgery can ever result in ” a beginners understanding of….”
In fact, reducing religion, culture or surgery to a modicum of politically acceptable talking points is “redutio ad absurdum.” It is an exercise in paying lip service.
If you were a teacher and asked to reduce the Koran to 90 minutes of instruction, how would you go about producing a coherent, balanced and meaningful set of excerpts? In fact, would you possess the extensive background to even approach the task?
You note that “we read them the same way we read excerpts of Macchiavelli (sic) they are a snapshot of a culture, and they cant be fully understood without intense study, but that doesnt mean that studying them at any level less than full intensity is inappropriate.”
My argument is not with the concept of “appropriate,” but with what the with “message” which the abbreviated selection was intended to convey. I have written and lectured extensively on the mind of Machiavelli. Most drive by encounters with the man reduce him to an “ends and means” formulation that entirely misrepresent the importance of his philosophy and works.
It is challenge enough to help a high school student to decipher the meaning of a Shakespeare classic without dumping expurgated catch phrases of the world’s great philosophical underpinnings on him.
A little learning is not only a dangerous thing, it leaves the student with a false sense of security that he thinks he knows what he is talking about.
Alexandra, the key to your comments lies with your stated belief that people should be free to choose what they believe. Islam does not allow that choice. It can not. You can not be a good Muslim and live in a world that does not acquiesce to your belief system. Jihad is the struggle to change the world into a world where everyone is a faithful follower of Islam. You sound like the book I read. One needs to read between the lines.
Here’s a true story for you. When I lived in the suburbs of a big Midwest city, my child went on a public school field trip to the local islamic center. The kids were learning about the major religions in school. While they were there, the leader taught them about Islam. He even was kind enough to recite their profession of faith and encouraged the children to say it along with him. He asked the children if they believed in Allah and the prophet. The children yelled out in unison, “Yes!!!!” Well, most of the children did. My son said “No!”, at which point everyone stopped and looked at him. He later told me that he did not “get it”, and did not understand why Christians and Jews kids were saying they believed in Islam. I later found out from a Catholic lay teacher that what happened at that Mosque was really a conversion of sorts. It seems that all those little Christian and Jewish kids had been converted to Islam by reciting the islamic profession of faith. Interestingly enough, that was the last year that the school went on that field trip!
To comment #31
If I was told my husband couldn’t be in the room with me after giving birth to our kid because of someone else’s religion, I would have laughed at them and demanded my husband to stay.
As far as swimming in public pools, there are such things as wet suits and swimming caps. The Duggars make their children wear wet suits to maintain modesty, Muslims can do it too. I couldn’t imagine swimming in a Burka.
If it’s a swimming pool, then one must follow the rules of the pool, so to speak. If the rules are changed by the owners of the pool, then that also is their business.
I agree with Shahid Malik (UK Labour MP), that ‘anyone who wants Sharia Law should go and live in Saudi.’
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2320096,00.html
Here, in a converted Muslim’s own words, is the ‘truth’ of Sharia:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/sharia/practical.shtml
The last paragraph, for me, pretty much sums up the ‘reasons’ for sharia: Control. Fuelled by a desire for religious power, paranoia and patriarchy.
I admit I am strongly prejudiced against religious law and fight the merest whiff of ’sharia’ in the society in which I live. Fortunately, or unfortunately, secular law is our only (legal!!!) protection from religious nut-jobs other than taking the fight to the street as war.
I likewise oppose any government’s arrogance in assuming the role of parent. Yet, who protects countless innocent victims of tribal/cultural/religious family abuse?
It’s a weird balance we still try to strike between the rigid laws of Ancient-Desert-God worshippers and the voted laws of humans.
I was raised breadline working class, and social life was mostly ‘pubs’. In the local pub, behind the bar, was a legend, carved and painted on wood:
It said:
“No politics. No religion”.
I thank the landlord for many, many peaceful evenings amongst polite company who could return to their differences when they got home
Hey:
If anyone starts the Anti-Islamic society of America, I will join even if I have to pay dues.
Be damned if this country is turned into a Muslim fief under my watch.
I recall discussing this on another website several months ago. The topic had to do with a horrific story about the guy (I think from Pakistan) who killed 3 or 4 of his daughters in front of his wife. Slit their throats, all because his oldest daughter was interested in a young man that he didn’t approve of.
That culture does have some strange extremes associated with it.
But so does the Western World…. David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, etc.
It’s the distortion & exploitation of religion in general that is the problem that prevents cultures from getting along. Always has been, always will be.
OFF TOPIC: (but not completely unrelated)
Talking about Bush admin incompetence and the U.S. bending over to appease others….
Here’s something else you all may be interested in.
Pakistan creates safe haven for Taliban (& their Al Qaeda allies) & other terrorists. Recently got this from TMV…
http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1157554003.shtml
Whatever happened to “those who harbor the terrorists will face consequences…blah blah blah”???
I just heard a report this morning with Bush saying he is o.k. with the above Report about Pakistan cutting this deal.
I really think that behind closed doors the folks in the Bush admin. have egg on their faces and don’t want to admit how they have screwed up. Just a couple of years ago they gave Pakistan the special designation of “Major non-Nato Ally”. This cleared the way for the U.S. to sell all kinds of weapons to Pakistan. (I guess sales for the U.S. corporate Defense industry is more important than just about anything).
India is probably saying “We told you so” right about now.
Heliotrope, would you suggest then that students learn nothing at all until they are able to devote years to each specific study? We learned the major works of art of each period we studied as well; I would never think that high school students could fully understand some of history’s greatest artists in a week of study devoted to each one, but those courses were both a basic understanding and a jumping-off point to further study. How can you understand history if you don’t understand the most basic cultural forces that shaped people’s actions? I sure as heck didn’t get as much out of Madame Bovary back then as I did the last time I re-read it, but I got enough out of it to garner an inkling of what it was about and to ignite a desire to learn more about it.
Yes, it’s a shame that students often remember only trite “better to be feared than loved” aphorisms, but all learning starts somewhere. It’s a shame that we allow babies to crawl when there’s so much of the world to see that crawling is a wholly inadequate way to see it. Few students will learn to “walk” in every subject they encounter — some will choose math, and some will choose English, etc — so some will only vaguely remember that “the ends justify the means,” or that there is a hypotenuse in every right triangle that for some reason or another is very important. But I don’t take that to mean that students should learn everything to its fullest extent, or nothing at all.
Belle:
I suppose we must agree to disagree on the point that one can choose whether or not to be Muslim. All my experiences with Islam have shown me that it most often does allow the choice to believe or not.
“while treating Christianity — one of the pillars of western civilization, our whole way of life — like a loathsome disease, it’s time for action.
Enough talk. ”
First, I just want to know what does this mean and ask a more direct question I’ve been wondering. What exactly do you want us Muslims to do? Is your proposition mass conversions? If you are Muslim woman who believes, as I do, in modesty and who choses to cover her hair, (as many christian and jewish women believe also, btw) am I to hide my beliefs. Are we going to revert to the tactics of the Spanish Inquisition? I really want to know what I am going to have to start dealing with, what to tell my children.
Because this entire post is so inflammatory, its just stoking the fires of hatred and some nutcase is going to run with it.
Instead of dealing with valid concerns, that Islamic practices are allowed while Christian ones are not, you are making this to a pure hate fill attack. I mean clothes in the pool, I know plenty of non Muslims who do that (t-shirts and shorts) and you know good and well its not a saftey hazard. Schools with large Jewish populations offer kosher food. Honor Killings happen in lots of cultures including Hindu, Christian, and Sikh. Its not justified but violence against women is more common in highly patriarchal cultures. (See a recent rape case in Italy where the woman was blamed for the jeans she wore). Do you have some valid concerns, yes, but when you present them like this, it just does get lost and you just sound like a hate monger.
Again as you’ve said, its your blog and such posts make good reading I suppose.
I would like to know why we all went nuts over South Africa’s loathsome apartheid in the 1980s, demanding that they change everything about their society and culture, but we’re seemingly content to bend over and take it from radical Muslims who have absolutely no intention of integrating into Western society. They instead want to force Western society to conform to Islam.
What strikes me as funny is that if islam had taken over the world before the modern age we would have no swimming pools at all. There would be no muslim friendly bathing suits and sports wear for girls. The idea never occured to them until they suddenly realized that they were in competition with the West and set out to try and proove that muslims can have just as much fun as anyone else and that they can do anything that anyone else can all covered up.
They basically saw our girls and boys having fun at various sports and enjoying the wonderful feel of being in the water out in the warm sunshine of summer.
Never mind whether its a safety issue or not. Its flat out ridiculous to be fully clothed in the water. Swimming in fully soaked street clothes and walking around with them clinging all over your body isnt as fun, free and comfortable as wearing a proper swimsuit. This is what they should be called on. Even wearing a full body swimsuit robs a person of the wonderful feel of sun and wind on skin. The fact is that the very notion that muslim girls can have just as much fun or be just as comfortable as a girl who can wear the kind of attire that is designed with practicality and comfort in mind is pure horse doo.
But these facts dont even scratch the surface of the real problem here. That is the inroads these folks are making in turning back the clock on the normalization of the female body. Personally, I prefer to wear more clothing than some other women even in the pool where I wear a pair of shorts in addition to my one piece bathing suit. I personally dont approve of the extremes that some women go to to expose their bodies in public. But when I think about it, I think its wonderful to feel the sun on my legs, back and arms and not get second glance from anyone. My arms and legs and neck and skin are the same as anyone elses. They are mine. I am beholden to noone. Not my dad. Not my brother. Not my future husband. They have no claim to my skin. They have no right to ask me to give up the feel of sun or the breeze on my skin. Its wonderful to have that choice. Because I have my choices and treasure them, I must applaud the choice of women who choose to wear bikinis etc. If they can pull it off, they add healthy beauty to scene that even for a straight girl like myself can appreciate. When I see them I think of how beautiful the human form, both male and female, can be. It is not a thing to be feared and when normalized within certain moderate parameters, the sight of that form is not at all disruptive. A woman in a bikini here in the West where the sight of her is normal faces only the occaisional whistle or “hey baby”. But go to where the sight of the female body is not normal and the sight of a woman’s hair or arms is an invitation to rape. The woman in the bikini is truly free to choose what she wears. The other woman has no choice but to cover herself whether she likes it or not.
I think we run the risk of losing sight of that fact when we talk in terms of muslim girls being more modest than American girls. When we start conceding the field to those who claim that there is no barrier to fun or comfort or safety to allow muslim girls to swim fully covered we begin to lose ground on the larger issue of what is best for women. Sure this girl and others like her have the choice now to be different and to covort in the pool alongside other girls who have made a different choice. But what happens when there are more and more girls like her. As the numbers increase, the definition of normal, of modest, of “good girl” changes. The pressure then mounts for good girls to prove how good they are by covering more and more. Once this idea becomes entrenched, it becomes difficult and then impossible for a woman to choose not to cover all of her skin and hair. This was and is the trajectory whereever muslim women start “choosing” to be more “modest”. The inevitable result is that over time less and less women get to choose until the point where no women gets to choose to feel the sun and the wind of their skin and hair. That is unless she wants to be raped or jailed or otherwise abused and shamed.
This is what we should be talking about in these cases. If the girl insists on being less comfortable and having less pleasure out of doors and while swimming then the rest of us, then that is her choice. I think we must counter with the insistance that she wear a islamically friendly bathing suit instead of bending the rules against street clothes. And we sure better be loud and clear on why we think that her so-called greater “modesty” is bad idea for all women and why no woman should ever choose to be like her. Above all we should make sure that our daughters and sons realize that nothing short of true freedom and liberty is at stake here in this debate between us and our ways and them and their whacked out dress code.
Dont be fooled by their attempts to have their “modesty” and swimming and sports too. That is a smoke screen to take the pressure and attention of the fact that they are simply wrong about the female body and that our girls and women, from the girl in the bikini to the girl in shirt and shorts out on the soccer field, are just flat out better off and more comfortable and more free than theirs.
Alexandra,
your experiences show you that people had a choice in whether to be Muslim or not. My experiences indicate otherwise.
I have done a substantial amount of work with abused women and children. I find that what happens in the Muslim culture and community is very much akin to the psychological struggle within the dynamics of an abusive relationship. Those of us on the outside think that those within the abused situation are free to leave and freely choose to stay. But we view their actions from our own “free” perspective. Psychologically these individuals are not truly or purely free to make decisions. They fear. And their choices are made from fear.
I would find it freeing to wear a headscarf every day — freeing from shampooing, conditioner, blow dyers, curling irons, hair spray, and $$$$ spent at the hairdressers. But if my failing to wear a hear scarf would be viewed by members of my family as indication of my being a “bad” person, a betrayer of my religion, an evil wanton woman, and open me to sexual abuse or harrassment — yeah — choosing the headscarf would be the easier path to take. Just like letting the husband punch me every now and then would be easier to handle then trying to leave the abuser.
I am concerned about your friends who wear a chador and say that it exempts them from sexual comments on the street. What freaking streets are these women walking that sexual comments are so frequent and the only way to avoid sexual comments is by covering up? This belief is just one of the steps down that slippery slope that a woman dressing a certain way is inviting and deserves to be raped.
Correction
I didnt complete the following thought.
“They basically saw our girls and boys having fun at various sports and enjoying the wonderful feel of being in the water out in the warm sunshine of summer.”
It should read
“They basically saw our girls and boys having fun at various sports and enjoying the wonderful feel of being in the water out in the warm sunshine of summer and they became jealous. That’s the only reason there are any of these challenges at all.”
If you don’t agree with the principles of sharia, make sure you don’t go to Caribou Coffee.
Anonymous Muslim,
It couldn’t be more clear from the post what we want you to do: adopt Western values. The very fact that you live in this country means that Western values are superior. That’s the very reason you live here and not a Muslim country. Muslim countries are, by and large, failed states or dictatorships. They are that way because of Islamic values, or the dictators that are needed to suppress Islamic extremism. One of the few exceptions is Turkey, which adopted secularism thanks to Ataturk. The simple Muslims in this country can do is stop pushing their values on us. If you don’t like it here, move to an Islamic country where your ‘values’ are already in place (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, ….)
Lashawn,
I’m quite bothered by your comment about how you don’t like a majority of muslim anything. You sound just like those racists back then who did not like a majority of black anything. That said, I’m an african american female and my fiancee is a muslim from pakistan. He is a wonderful man: very intelligent (phd is physics), serious, and open minded. He has friends who are just like them and his friends have friends just like them. Sure, every religion has bad apples but we have to look at how the media portrays muslims, they make us believe that they are all staunch raving lunatics. I’m not trying to use the “I’m tolerant of black people because my maid is black” jargon. I’m just trying to say that muslims get a bad rap just like we african americans get a bad rap. There are far too many wonderful muslims out there to deserve the amount of hatred they face.
anonymous muslim,
Why anonymous? Can words on a blog hurt you? Are you afraid or something? I just dont see the reason. I dont say this to attack you. I am genuinely curious. Whats the problem with giving your name? This is a free country anonymity isnt necessary even in the public square. This is the country where one can have even the most outrageous views and not be punished for speaking them.
I find it very disturbing if you are hiding because you think you have to. You couldnt be more incorrect about the West if that is what you think. We talk loud and say extreme things because we are free to do so and because we believe in the value of all ideas and because the person that can freely express an extreme idea or emotion is much less likely, not more likely, to resort to physical or other more aggressive means to express themselves. You are more safe with someone who is above board in their opinions than someone who smiles to your face but feels otherwise.
Now to your points.
Your response to LaShawn’s comment gets what she is getting at completely wrong I’m afraid. I read her words as a call to reverse the trend of driving Christianity from public life while bending over backwards to accomodate islam in that same sphere. Mass conversions? Yes we would like to see that. Christians believe that our religion is true and the best for mankind so of course we want to see others accept the truth. But if you mean something like forced conversion, then heavens no! Christianity formed a pillar of this great nation because we so desired religious freedom and from the outset people of other religions and of no faith at all have been free and equal citizens of this nation. If we hold a value to like freedom of religion to be something dear to us, we believe that same exact freedom should be for everyone not just for us. Dont listen to the fear mongers in your own community. You have nothing to worry about on that score.
However, we do have a problem with the aggressive way that muslims are forcing changes to our society. The Amish don’t force us to accomodate them in our greater society. They live apart. There is a minimal degree of contact between us and them and so the accomodation is minimal as well. Orthodox Jews also from time immemorial lived apart even when found living in large cities. Given the choices found in America, they had a choice too. Do we force public institutions and fast food chains to stop serving pork and observe halacha rules? Or do we open up our own restaurants and leave McDonalds alone. Do we have our own private schools or do we force public schools to institute special rules just for us that dont apply to other students? Do we show some American initiative and open up our own private pools and other health facilities? or do we demand that Bally’s and the public pool provide us with special facilities?
These two groups chose to not bother us and make demands of us that would force changes in our way of life and create imbalances between us and them.
When one group has a very demanding code of life and insists on full accomodation in every sphere of life instead of opting to build and live their lives largely in their own private sphere, only one thing can happen. The group with the less demands are imposed upon and that is not only wrong, it is impolite and unneighborly.
Take the muslim majority high school vs the Christian majority high school for instance. Christian majority school does not force the minority muslims to eat pork. For the Christian child in the muslim majority school that has the halal kitchen, the ham sandwich that they can eat is not available. Same goes for restaurants in muslim dominated areas. Say there is a chain restaurant that normally serves pork. But to bring in the muslim majority of the area, the pork is cut from the menu. The Christian living in that area who wants to have the pork item wont be able to find it there and will have to go out of their way to get it or else move out of that area(as so many have).
The problem we have with muslims is their insistence on full accomodation in the public sphere and their agressive tactics to transform it into something more islamically friendly. The only end result possible of this campaign is imposition on others and disparity between people whether they like it or not. There is no possibility of another outcome. If you want to avoid imposing on others, then the only option is the kind of separation that others have opted for.
Where we really have a problem is the very strong sense that we get that there is no option in islam to live apart as the Amish do. We get the very strong message that muslims have a religious duty to make any society they live in more islamic. If you can refute that you have that duty to change our society to better reflect your concept of what society should be like, then you and your friends need to be very loud about it and urge muslims to either fully assimilate or else create an arrangement to live apart in the same peaceful and polite manner that others have before you. Model yourselves on the Amish or the Hasidim, who are to a one loyal and peaceful citizens of this country and whom we are more than happy to leave alone in their enclaves to live as they choose, and there will not be a problem anymore. Can you do that? That is the question all of us want to know.
#42 Alexandra asks me: “Heliotrope, would you suggest then that students learn nothing at all until they are able to devote years to each specific study?”
Of course not. But you will admit that reading Madame Bovary and tip-toeing through the tulips of religion are in no way related.
I taught humanities at the high school and college level. I do not see how art and literature overviews relate to teaching less than Cliff Notes sanitized summaries of religions.
I fought the whole “Bible as literature trend.” Heck, you can teach TV Guide as literature if you are creative. You can call the “P*ss Christ” pure art and claim it is neutral as a religious statement. You can watch Madonna hump a cross on an altar in the sanctuary and call it aerobics.
Religious studies are not benign strolls through the park. Kenneth Clarke did his level best to explain that all religions are a primitive exposition of man’s need to express the creation myth. Poor dead Kenneth now lies moldering in creation myth limbo somewhere and the religions of the world have moved on without his brilliant elitism.
When public schools have been beaten over the head for permitting any form of (Christian) religion to intrude, how can you expect me to believe that your little frolic with religious studies amounted to anything remotely resembling a philosophical understanding of the tenets of those faiths?
In sum, yes, I think the public schools should keep their hands off of religious “education” of any sort and stick to mocking it through gross interpretations by having a field day with “The Crucible” and the fanaticism of John Brown. There is plenty out there to keep the liberals supplied with ammunition to fire at their favorite Bogey-men, the fundamentalist Christians.
What is the purpose of having the students read over some Wikipedia type pap about the major religions? World history texts normally do their neutral best on the major religions. It is a great shame that the ACLU has forced us into this box. But we are in it. Presenting the basic texts of religion in a neutral and “benign” way is not possible. They are Holy scripture and can not be “de-Holy-ified” by even the most clever of cynics.
Walt,
How are western values superior? The last time I checked, the innovation wheels of this country were not spinning do to the efforts of americans. From my experiences in graduate school (where americans are in the minority except in certain fields like english, history, sociology….) it is the foreigners who are getting the phds, the lucrative jobs in higher education and industry. Do you have a child in college? Chances are, he is being taught by a foreigner? Been to Microsoft? The people who build your operating systems are from other countries a vast proportion of them are muslim and hindu.
It is very easy to throw words out like superior western values but if you happen to take a close look you will see who is really running this country. You will see that the driving force behind technology and medicine are foreigners many who move here not becasuse of superior values but because we make it so easy for them to move here, beat us on our own turf, and come out shiny and clean. It is just the truth. The analogy I like to use is BEST BUY. Americans sell the electronics but who is actually designing it? You would be surprised at how many foreigners (a vast majority of muslims) make it possible for us to enjoy the luxuries that we do.
Egads! The regretful consequence of open commenting…
Dear, foreigners may have the high-tech jobs, but who do you think developed the technology? Why, do you imagine, they are here instead of the Third World countries from which they fled? (Here I’m referring specifically to Indians and those hailing from Muslim countries.) That foreigners are working in these sorts of jobs speaks ill of our lousy education system, not the driving principles behind the development of the education system. If foreigners are “running this country,” what is stopping them from transforming their own Third World holes into First World gems, as western man has?
You’re a black woman in the best country on the planet, a country based on “western” principles that allow you to express your anti-America views without fear of imprisonment or death, with the privilege of attending university, an idea that sprung from western thought, and you think this way? God help the future generations, those who must carry on this great experiment. If you are any indication of how young Americans think, the future is bleak, indeed. – Admin
Anonymous muslim,
Here’s another qiestion for you. Would you agree that either all religions are fully accomodated in the public sphere or else none of them should be? Right now, open public expressions of Christian piety are being driven from the public sphere while muslim expression of piety is being welcomed. Headscarves are as much an advertisement for the faith of a muslim girl as Christian prayer and tracts do to the faith of the Christian. But the one is welcomed and accomodated and the other is banned. Tell me that muslims dont see the headscarf as a means to invite interest in your religion. I’ve seen even moderates praise it for its utility in attracting people to learn about islam.
Now I have something for you to think about. If it takes forcing someone else to be uncomfortable or restricted in order for one to feel comfortable and unrestricted isnt there something wrong somewhere? Would the more neighborly choice be to choose to retrict oneself in that person’s presence and put up with some discomfort rather than to do that? Would you make it a habit to hang around where you were uncomfortable? Probably not. But as long as there was some private area where you could feel comfortable what would be the harm of spending most of your time in that sphere? Why insist on enlarging that sphere to include the whole world when that means imposing on others?
#44 “I really want to know what I am dealing with, what to tell my children.”
As a Christian in a Muslim country, what would I need to deal with? What would I tell my children? What would you advise me to tell my children? I won’t go into the list of things that are punishable in Muslim countries, but the list is long and the punishment is horrific.
The answer for you is to advise your children that your religion prohibits you from participating in some of the customary freedoms and activities of Americans in America. We Americans are largely Christian, but even Christians must make moral choices in determining what we allow our children to see and do. You must simply do the same. It’s called freedom.
Edub,
Actually, I graduated from an engineering school about 3 years ago. The majority of my teachers were white Americans or Europeans, Chinese, and one or two Indians. The majority of the graduate and PhD students were Chinese, Taiwanese, or Korean. I think the reason Americans aren’t filling these positions is because of our abysmal public education system, which is run by liberals more interested in public education bureaucracy and unionization than in actually teaching children or upholding standards. In fact, John Stossel did a great expose on this a week ago on television. The majority of semiconductor design is done in Silicon Valley, Taiwan, and China. Much software design is done here and in India, where 85% of the population is Hindu. Muslims are few in those countries. Your criticism would be better directed toward the Democrats and the teacher’s unions than against me. Also, most of the electronics we sell in America are made in China because land and labor are cheaper there, not because their civilization is superior. Japanese and American businessmen are, by and large, responsible for the manufacturing boom in that country.
anonymous muslim,
One last comment. I know I’ve already said quite a bit.
I want to correct you on your contention that Christian women choose to cover their hair for the same reason and with the same goal or intention as muslim women do. (I cant speak for Jewish women so if there are any Jewish women who would like to please feel free) Think of what I am about to say as an education freely and respectfully offered.
While modesty has always been important for Christian women it has always also had a different meaning. Christian modesty is not based on an understanding that the woman’s body and hair is disruptive to society and niether has it been seen as the property of the husband. Christian women were encouraged to be modest in relation to the very immodest Greek culture into which Christianity was first revealed. Modest dress was not defined. A woman’s hair has never been made a taboo or the treasure of her husband. Neither were any other body parts defined as taboo or shameful to show in public. Christian modesty was always in the context of opposition to the prevailing culture and is practiced in moderation in relation to that culture. In other words, in our culture today we know that the sight of a woman’s skin and hair should be normal and that this is a good thing for women. We know now that it is every bit as important for a woman to be as comfortable outside her home as a man is and that she has every right to enjoy the pleasures of wind and sun wherever she goes. We have come to this correct conclusion precisely because modesty was never defined by what body parts are covered and instead was defined by a womans attitude toward and relationship with her prevailing culture. Christian modesty is satisified by finding the middle way and the balance between revealing all without a sense of dignity and the other extreme of covering all where the whole of a woman’s body is seen as too dangerous for proper society to see. A healthy medium is found between having no respect for the body and seeing it as so extremely precious that a natural and free life for the women becomes impossible and she can never just go outside without making a production of putting on scarf and coat and veil.
The only definite words about Christian modesty are about make up jewelry etc. While these things are not taboo for us, these words are given to us to speak to the Christian woman that she is worth more than her appearance and that a woman who can free herself from worry about it is better off than the woman who feels compelled to wear it.
As for covering the head, this has always been primarily defined as an act of humility and not of modesty. Christian women are encouraged but not required to wear a head covering in prayer and as a symbol that she is either under the headship of her husband or in the case of nuns, under the headship of Christ. (BTW nuns are by definition always at prayer so the head covering covers that recommendation as well) The head covering when worn is a reminder to be womanly demur in disposition and to submit oneself to the husband just as the husband submits himself to the wife. It is a reminder of an attitude that the Christian woman should cultivate.
The extent of the head covering has been also culturally defined and has followed fashion. The requirement for those who feel it is satisfied as long as something is on the head. LaShawn could probably tell you about the absolutely wonderful tradition of wearing hats to Church in the African American community. Those marvelous hats were worn both out of humility as the Bible recommends but they also represent the crown of the believing woman waiting for her in heaven. This is one of the more perfect interpretations of Christian teaching as can be found in this world, in my opinion. If only I, a white girl, could look so good in such vivid and dramatic styles I wouldnt hesitate to adopt the practice!
I hope this makes the differences clear.
I’m grateful I have smart readers. Thanks for taking the time to comment, Peggy.
Walt,
You are not understanding my comment. I’m not commenting on where the production takes place i’m commenting on who is in charge of the innovation–it’s only a few americans who hold this title. You are absolutely correct in your arguments about the public school system failures but that is a huge part (and deficit) of our “western superior society”. Let’s face the truth, we are not superior, let’s not even pretend that we are free (this world is so pc that we can’t even enjoy our freedom of expression) that is why it is refreshing to read blogs like lashawn. We are a bunch of scared individuals who play the blame game to make up for our shortcomings. We are loosing it (you even agree with this given your comments on the public school system). All of our top notch programs (MIT, HARVARD, STANFORD…..) are full of the foreigners many of whom hail from Muslim countries and we can’t comptete with them. Be honest with yourself. Can you really hold a torch to them? I will speak for myself, they give me a run for my money. What’s scary is this…they come here, get the awesome education our universities offer (trust me, foreign high schools are much, much better than our superior ones but our Universities give them many more opportunities when they decided to settle back home), and they go home and develop and cultivate the ideas on their own soil. What’s going to happen when we, as americans can’t compete any longer? This is what is scary. It’s scary to sit in a classrom (graduate) and watch american kids eyes bulge with horror as a detailed mathematical proof is put on the board and watch as the chinese and indian and pakistani kids eat it up when they can’t even properly speak english. It’s scary to know that this year (I’m a second year graduate student) of the 3 americans enrolled in the program (out of 17 students) two are not coming back because they can’t handle it.
This is the reality. We are loosing the battle and we need to do something about it besides living in denial.
And to Admin: Trust me, they are. They come here, stay for awhile, make good money, but you’d better believe me when I tell you they are sending it back and are building infastructure in their own countires. Look at Iran, they have nuculear systems as powerful as ours. Look at China, it’s growth is off the charts, look at India, growth off the charts and their women there are holding more executive positions than ever before and both highly skilled men and women are opening domestic compaines that sell softdrinks, candies, clothing… that offer true competion to many american firms. Check out IIT in india, they are turning out some of the highest skilled indiviuals on the planet who are opening companies in india like you would not belive. Look at pakistan check out LUMS, see how pakistani students who have come to the United States have gone back to their country and opened up a school that rivals MIT. My fiancee is leaving the US this december to take up a faculty position there. Check out the stats on how many individuals are coming here to study but are going back. They are going back. Economic development takes time but we will see in about 10-15 years tremendous growth in these countries.
Admin, the idea of university came from ancient china and egypt. Westerners were hovering over fires in caves while ancient chinese and egyptians were discovering physics and geometry.
Trust me admin. I am the future. I am an african american who is able to compete with not only these foreingers but with my fellow americans and can out prove any stereotype out there that one may have regarding a black woman. I have skills that can carry me to any part of the world and I can survive there. I can build a damn in africa (I was a civil engineer, mathematics, and economics undergraduate), teach physics in china, or discuss economic development in India. I can survive a challenging phd/jd at one of the best schools in the country and i can run an interior design company (you should check out my coffee tables: http://www.edessedesigns.com). I can live outside of my comfort zone and can ask questions that many are afraid to ask. I can accept my shortcomings (I have many) and I can accept defeat. But the thing I am most proud of, is my ability to see an accept the truth, which I got not from my western upbringing but from my relationship with GOD or ALLAH, or whatever you may want to call him.
This tit-for-tat about what foreigners can do and what we can’t do is a separate issue. Just because this generation of Americans is dumb, relatively speaking, doesn’t mean previous ones were. It is because of these people, dedicated to democracy, freedom, capitalism, etc, that the country exists in the first place. Any foreigner with the opportunity to come here will do so and exploit this land of milk and honey, honey. I wish you were actually sharing new information, but you’re not. There is nothing new nor surprising about foreign workers beating out Americans in the high tech field. Does that mean their home countries are somehow better than this country? In your and their dreams.
And I have no doubt that people from China and Third World hell-holes like India are sending money back home. Americans, for whatever reason, are being outpaced in the high tech field, but that doesn’t disprove or negate the greatness of the west. Unfortunately, subsequent generations care less and less about such greatness. About the “hovering over the caves” idea, I recommend you read Charles Murray’s Human Accomplishment. No matter what China or Egypt may have developed, it was the west than harnessed the power and expanded upon various discoveries and inventions. PLEASE read that book.
That you are an entrepreneur is great. I’m ecstatic. I highly recommend the lifestyle. I still worry about a younger generation that thinks like you, no matter what educational level you attain or who you are able to “compete” with or how many businesses you own. – Admin
#44 “I really want to know what I am dealing with, what to tell my children.â€
Why don’t you start by telling your children that they are lucky and blessed to be living in this great country that is populated by good, kind, generous, and innovative people. Tell your children that they can go to school here for free, and that people can worship where they wish, they can wear the type of clothing they want, they can live where they wish, they can talk to the opposite sex without fear of “religious police”. Tell your children that whatever their sex, they can pursue the career they wish. Tell your daughters that in America they have the same rights as your sons and that in America no one has the right to injure, imprison or kill them because they go against the family’s wishes. Tell your daughters that in America the female body is not considered the path to evil. Teach your children your religion, but understand that in America they are free to practice whatever faith they wish, even if that means no faith. But above all, tell your children to thank God everyday for giving them the chance to grow up in a society that values personal freedom. Tell them that to have such freedom is a basic right in America. If these things are too frightening for you to tell your children, then you have no business being here.
My point is that, every single complaint is directed toward the Islamic beliefs, not toward the minority extremist who are essentially motivated by political issues. These comments and post imply that every single Muslim in America is a threat, when this is an out and out lie. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are law abiding and contribute to society. Just because they happen to have conservative moral beliefs, some how they are now all the enemy.
Why is it wrong to ask for accommodation? As I mentioned before, its done by other groups. If the facility or school doesn’t want to comply than so be it. Why is it wrong to ask?
It seems to me your gripe is with school administrators and the like whom you believe to discriminate against Christians.
Peggy: There is no point in trying to refute you because you have already made up your mind that every thing a Muslim woman does is because she is being oppressed by some man. God forbid she actually has a brain and wears hijab(head scarf) because she loves God and wants to live her life in obedience to God in part by being modest. In fact the majority of Muslim women in America don’t wear it, so they can choose not to. I read a lot of Christian womens blogs and plenty of them want to be modest too, and are sick of this societies culture of immodesty. But you have us all figured out so I won’t waste my time.
And lastly, did women not swim before the bikini was invented? The overwhelming majority of women in the world would not be comfortable in a bikini, no matter what their religion. You can go to India and see Hindus in the water with their full Saris on. Its just a different cultural mindset, not everyone is comfortable walking around in what is essentially underwear.
#62
I think the “conservative moral beliefs” we’re most worried about in Islam are those that say “slaughter the infidels.” The fact is, while the majority of Muslims aren’t terrorists, the rest sympathize with them or put forward these inane arguments about atrocities committed in the past by other religions or cultures. When Westerners start trying to immigrate to Islamic countries, you’ll have a leg to stand on.
a few more people to respond to
I’m anonymous because I dont want my friends to see how much a I waste time on the internet, I think some of them read this blog. I guess I could have just made up a generic Muslim name. OK, I’ll be Laila.
I did want to agree with one point. Personally I dont think Muslims should be constantly asking for accomodations particularly in the public schools. I think many immigrants came here and saw how the Jews were accomodated in NYC, and Philadelphia and I thought they would have the same right. I dont think they realize they are not as welcomed here as the Jews so I think its a waste of time. I think Muslims should work together more to have their own facilities, schools and can be more independent.
Walt the West has been in the Muslim countries for hundreds years.
A history of the Middle East by Peter Mansfield is very informative
This is a link to an article on “lawful islam” – or how the muslims use our own laws against us. I haven’t had time to read all the comments, so sorry if I repeat something that’s been said, but it’s definitely worth considering.
http://tinyurl.com/rlboz
anonymous muslim – I think that many non-radical Muslims and Biblical Christians would find common ground as far as modesty is concerned. I have two sons, but if I had daughters, there’s no way I’d let them dress as a “pop tart” like Brittney Spears or Agulara or Madonna, or even emulate them in private or public.
There were many Americans disgusted and outraged two years ago when Janet Jackson’s boob was exposed on live TV during the Super Bowl. Some people said we should just “grow up” and “get over it” because it was “just a boob” but I was at a friend’s home where lots of children were watching. UGH. It wasn’t “just a boob” to us.
Walter in post #63 makes a very good point, however, in that the majority of Americans are afraid of Muslims, or worried when we see these massive protests with Muslims shouting “death to America!” “death to all infidels!” and the like, and also rioting over a bunch of cartoons, the terrorist bombings, beheadings and the like.
You seem like a reasonable chap. What we would love to see and hear is more and more regular Muslims standing up and saying “enough!” and standing with us, instead of remaining silent. Instead of organizations like the feckless CAIR claiming victimhood every week, we’d love for regular Muslims living in America to take a strong stand against the insanity being done in the name of your religion.
Instead, we’ve heard almost nothing. The silence, in fact, is deafening. We take silence as silent approval.
If you want accommodation, how about proving that you don’t stand with those who want to slaughter us? Because of your silence, the burden of proof, unfortunately, rests with you and your fellow Muslims.
Be a proud Muslim and STAND WITH US against the monsters who murder in the name of Islam! THEN you’d find a lot more Americans much more willing to accommodate you.
Anonymous muslim, your true feelings about this country lie in your comment “sick of this societies culture of immodesty”. Apparently, you do not feel you are a part of “this society” and it seems you find it’s culture repulsive. Cloaking your disdain for the West under the pretense of “religious values and modesty” doesn’t work. Again, we can read between the lines. And by the way, there are many cultures both present and past, in which the women swim….naked!
anoymous muslim,
What a cop out. I am very disappointed. I went to great pains to describe the differences in how we understand modesty and how you understand it because i assumed you were a reasonable person with a brain that would read my words carefully. In return you assume that I am unreasonable and there is no point in even trying to do the same for me.
I never said anything about it not being your choice. I never said a word about oppression by men. I never said that muslim women do not have brains. You are reading into my words sentiments that are not there.
My point is that islamic beliefs about modesty are extreme, unhealthy and unneccessary and that we Christians have never had the same understanding of modesty that you muslims do. Everything I said was meant with all due respect but you go off on me like I attacked you.
There is way more to the headscarf than so-called modesty. It comes packed with a host of ideas that are bad for women. You may choose to wear it now but by its very nature there will come a day in the lives of one of your descendents where enough women will have chosen it that it will become expected of all “good girls” and the choice will be gone for any girl that doesnt want to wear it.
Why is it that a woman’s hair must be covered? Why is a womans hair provocative to men or a such a sensitive part of the body that only a relative must see? Why isnt it normal? Why is it so sexual? When you really start digging and thinking about the implications of considering normal parts of the body as things that it is immodest to expose it becomes anything but such a simple thing as loving and obeying God by being modest. Islam has a very definite definition of parts of a womans body that it is wrong or disobedient to expose. Its the reasons behind those attitudes that are unwholesome for women.
I really wish you would read what I actually wrote. I would also appreciate you answering my questions instead of avoiding them and getting on your high horse about how horrid I am. Do you really know me? I learned all that i know about islam from muslims. I have muslim friends. I thought about what they told me with an open mind and I think muslim beliefs are very unhealthy.
If some modesty is good it doesnt follow that an extreme form of modesty is better. As I told you, Christians occupy the middle range on the issue of modesty between too little and too much modesty. Too much of anything is never good. There are always unhealthy consequences in going to extremes. In my mind you are not more modest than me. Your beliefs are not more conservative than mine. I have thought alot about islam and have listened more than your assumptions would have you believe. I have come to the thoughtful conclusion that your beliefs arent just more in degree than mine. They are very different than mine and deeply flawed. To you, Islam is just Christianity taken seriously. To you, muslims are more moral and concerned about modesty. To me, Islam is not Christianity at all in any degree. If you were to really listen to me and to other Christians instead of learning about us from other muslims you would soon realize that.
Further, you do not need to cover yourself in order to love and obey God. What does covering yourself have to do with love? Do you also cover yourself out of love for your husband? Why does your version of God ask you to cover? Why is it important to him. What reason does he give for commanding it? Why is it that the more one loves God the more one must cover? Are you trying to prove your love to God? Doesnt he know how much you love him without you having to prove it? I know the answers to at least some of these questions and I know the answers to why Christian modesty is not the same concept. The answers and reasons are totally different even if the word we use for them are the same.
You will say perhaps, that a covered woman commands more respect from men or that an uncovered woman lacks dignity or that hiding your body from men allows you to be close to God all the time without being distracted by worrying about what men are thinking about you.
My question is why? Why isnt a woman’s internal qualities more impressive than her physical beauty? Why does a powerful woman need a special outfit to command respect? Why is a woman’s dignity something that she puts on before she goes out of the house instead of something that she possesses in herself and which couldnt be taken away from her even if she was stripped of her clothes in public? Why do you worry so much about what other people think of you that you cant be close to God unless you adopt a means to control their thoughts about you? Why is your ability to concentrate so fragile? Why cant you feel safe without a special costume?
Like it or not there are attitudes and ideas behind the wearing of the headscarf and covering all of the body that are not good for anyone. They are bad for men. They are bad for women. And they are bad for society. They are every bit as bad as it would be if women were forbidden to wear clothes in public. These are extreme ideas of unhealthy origin. They are far from the wholesome middle.
#66
We could go back and forth for days on historical injustices, and Islam likes to dredge up the Crusades, the loss of Al-Andalusia, ad infinitum ad nauseum. I’m more interested in current events. Islam likes to play the historical victim card to excuse its actions. Absent of any historical injustices, Islam is still a religion of the sword.
BTW,
Just because a lot of women feel the need to get in the water completely clothed does not make it a good or a sensible thing. You are arguing that numbers make it right. You are saying that because other religious groups have similar opinions that that makes it ok.
My point is that it is silly to get soaked fully clothed not to mention uncomfortable. It is not nearly equal to the comfort and pleasure of swimming in Western style swim “underwear”. Its absolute bunk to suggest that a woman that swims fully covered is not being robbed of a simple and wholesome pleasure of this world which was created for us to enjoy fully as long as we do not make the mistake of forgetting and ignoring the one who gave it to us.
Just so you know, I am never more aware of being alone with God than I am when I am swimming. There is something about water that for me makes me joyful and thankful and peaceful and turns my thoughts to the wonder of God. The world just goes away. If you think that you cant be alone with God while swimming with men in one’s underwear then you have been lied to, my dear. The mind is more powerful than any outside condition. And just for the record, for his part, God is just as present and in Love with me no matter what I happen to be wearing.
PS
Laila,
Then why are you so worried about what your friends will think of you? Wont they still like you even if you are honest about coming here?
I ask in all respect and curiosity. I want to understand.
Peggy is my real name. What is yours?
Read the Lord of the Rings by JRRT. Think of the Bad guys as terrorist. Hear the words of Fighting for the West and for the Light. Take those words to heart in the coming years.
Where are the speeches of the defenders of the West that will rouse us to fight? That will put fire in our hearts and honor in our souls?
The media doesn’t defend the West.
The Schools don’t defend the West. They don’t even teach what the West means any more.
The Liberals who should be in the forefront of defending the West against the Darkness of the terrorists are instead ignoring the terrorist even hoping the terrorist might have some victories as long as it hurts the Liberals political enemies. They insist on fighting those who are trying to defend the West. They are like a man who fights his neighbor in the apartment building while the building burns and his neighbor tries to put out the fire. And he hopes that his neighbors apartment burns up.
The West and the Light are still strong but who speaks of defending them?
Sadly most don’t even really know what the West means. They will not know until it has fallen and the darkness covers all.
If your children don’t know what the West means the fault is with you.
Thanks Lashawn (admin) for not posting my rebuttal to yourself (admin) and to Walt. Have a great weekend! I’m going to Iceland Baby!!!!!!
“Why is a woman’s dignity something that she puts on before she goes out of the house instead of something that she possesses in herself and which couldnt be taken away from her even if she was stripped of her clothes in public?”
Because certain religions say that nakedness is bad. Very bad. Certain religions think that the human bosy is all about sex and sin. I call that projection
edub brings up one of the things that really sets me on edge about Islam and believing it is a supremacist movement worse than Jim Crow or Apartheid for subjugated infidels or even behavior as practiced by Muslim communities here –
That said, I’m an african american female and my fiancee is a muslim from pakistan. He is a wonderful man: very intelligent (phd is physics), serious, and open minded. He has friends who are just like them.
OK, even if this Pakistani isn’t interested in you as a surefire path to a green card or you helping his 20 or so relatives get in country. Or in converting you to Islam. Or leaving matters of the man in charge until after the hitching ceremony.
No, my question is, how many of your charming beau’s Muslim female friends are dating African American men or white, hispanic, yellow people?
The answer is none. Isn’t it?
It is forbidden and frequently the cause of honor killings or severe family beatings for a Muslim woman to defile herself and family with a relationship with an unclean infidel black man. Or any infidel.
The basis is supremacist. Women in the Qu’ran are sexual prizes, booty of war. Allowed to men by the book as sex toys, slaves, especially as wives because that deprives the infidel of new children by that woman, while helping the Ummah grow (Islam has always been very conscious of demography – on top of forced conversion, the more wives mean more children and barring the conquered breeding opportunities means demographic strength…or how 200,000 coming out of Arabia spread out and became 1.2 billion)
But allowing any Muslim woman to date an infidel means by the Qu’ran, Hadiths, and Sharia law that she is an apostate by her willingness to be with infidel filth. Thus the death penalty in most Muslim countries by family members or even the state for ANY Muslim woman and her infidel hanky-panky partner. Only if an infidel has converted to Islam does his uncleaness go away, and he is allowed a pure Muslim woman.
The idea that Muslims have fundamentally transformed their view by coming to the West is disputed by the near total absence of any Muslim woman having romances outside the faith. That is as supremacist as the old days where white men could have daliances with black women, but it was a lynching if a black man was with a white woman.
As a black woman, you are “fair game” to any Muslim in the West. For fun, have a black male friend of yours ask your beau how he can hook up with a hottie Pakistani, if he knows any he can recommend.
You should be very interested in how he handles the request….
ooops.
Bosy = ‘body’ of course.
And that was in response to #70.
Peggy, I’m sure you’ll find the bottom line is that Christianity is beginning to move out of the dark ages and realises that it must ‘re-interpret’ the Bible, or continue to freak over womanhood and nakedness. Islam still has many followers to whom ‘purity’ is modesty.
Terrorists are another species altogether.
Sorry Lashawn, i’m trigger happy before I catch that plane… It’s not a tit for tat issue, it’s the underlying problem as to why we as americans are quick to put down groups different from us (especially third world ones or muslim ones). I think it is the reason why we live in fear. What is really so scary about a muslim or so obtrusive about the koran or a head scarf? I feel that it is hight time for a dialogue (like your blog) but we must begin to ask the right questions or we will all continue to live in denial and will use excuses like religion to feel superior.
Lashawn, your blog is amazing and I have recommended it to many of my friends. I think that you have a writing style that i envy and a point of view (which is more than anything these days) keep up the good work and thanks for the updates on the duke rape case!
Have a great weekend!
Leila, why does it always come down to the Jews? The Jews came here and assimilated, they were happy to have the freedoms we have. No one gave them special treatment. Lord knows, many of them deserved special attention after what they went through. They were happy to be Americans. Can you tell me why only muslim women need to be covered? Why do the muslim men not need covering? They have hair and bodies, too.
#69: Belle said
“Anonymous muslim, your true feelings about this country lie in your comment “sick of this societies culture of immodestyâ€.”
Actually, ‘Laila’ typed:
“I read a lot of Christian womens blogs and plenty of them want to be modest too, and are sick of this societies culture of immodesty.”
So are Christian’s sick of immodesty in modern culture, or not?
I give you (possibly) the world’s longest Christian URL!!!!:
http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com
#77 JohnD addresses Peggy: “I’m sure you’ll find the bottom line is that Christianity is beginning to move out of the dark ages and realises that it must ‘re-interpret’ the Bible, or continue to freak over womanhood and nakedness. Islam still has many followers to whom ‘purity’ is modesty.”
Whew!!! Are you a member of Flip Wilson’s “Church of What’s Happenin’ Now” or do you really think you can deliver a cogent, relatively straight forward brief to back up that declaration?
Wow!!! And do tell what your whole women and nakedness thing is all about.
[1 Corinthians 11]
11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.
11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you.
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
I think Leila makes her feelings about our culture quite clear, John. Lord knows her people do.
Belle, for what it’s worth, I think Islam sucks big logs.
I think Laila has by now gotten the ‘point’ about her poor choices of clothing and degrees of modesty.
#83
I think you’re going to have a hard time here portraying the Bible as oppressive of women. Even in the Mosaic economy, women were treated infinitely better than they are now under Islam.
#63 anonymous muslim states: “God forbid she actually has a brain and wears hijab(head scarf) because she loves God and wants to live her life in obedience to God in part by being modest.”
In all honesty, when and why did this jijab custom begin? If you cite a time before 1960, please explain why it re-emerged after centuries of not being a staple of interpretation of the Koran.
As you must know, Muslim women can not wear the hijab in government offices or schools in Turkey. What is your opinion about that? How about the effort to prohibit it in France?
I am very interested in your instruction on this topic. I consider myself well informed on the topic, but perhaps you have an insight I may have missed.
I have on my desk a Muslim “Barbie” set that includes her “at home” outfit. What’s up with that?
#63 anonymous muslim: I forgot to ask….
Why don’t the young Muslim girls wear the hijab? Are they exempt from loving and being obedient to Allah? They certainly sport a western, colorful outfit. Is there not a tacit religious insult in the way they are dressed?
Are Muslim women with veiled eye-slits and leather face masks more loving and obedient to Allah than one who slips by with an Hermes scarf hijab?
#86 “I think you’re going to have a hard time here portraying the Bible as oppressive of women.”
I’m not attempting to portray it, I am simply quoting from it in an attempt to show that Christians have in recent centuries changed their regard to their treatment/views of womanhood and her required modesty/obedience.
>>…the West has been in the Muslim countries for hundreds years.>>
My husband was in the military and assigned to a post in Saudi Arabia for a year in the 60s. While in Arabia, he and the other westerners were prohibited from having any Christian religious services or even possessing bibles. Muslims in America do not suffer the same religious restrictions.
If Muslims want to live in a country that is not governed by the standards they wish to live by, the sensible thing to do is live in communities, but even then the local law will trump their religious laws in some circumstances. If they find that unacceptable, they should go elsewhere, not demand that this country change to suit them.
# 89
Whoops. My bad.
Okay, everybody out of the pool!
Isn’t the real point here the fact that Muslims are allowed freedom of religion in our schools while Christians and Jews are not?
I think you should be allowed to wear whatever you want to in the pool. I think I should wear whatever I want to in the pool. I think your child should be allowed to pray in school. I think my child should be allowed to pray in school.
But every personal exercise of Christianity or Judaism is treated as a violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution, while ALL other religions–not just Islam–are actively promoted. That’s ridiculous, of course; the establishment clause deals only with Congress. The clause also guarantees free exercise of religion, but that is now extended only to those who are not Christians or Jews.
Something is terribly wrong here.
Big Mo and all those who think thst Christians and Muslims have common ground on modesty I would ask to read or re-read my comments at #59
My point is not that Christians dont value modesty. I am NOT saying that Christian women have no problem with women going naked or nearly naked in public. I am saying that we have a whole different means of guidance on where to draw the line and a different origin in thought and idea for the concept.
To summarize my more detailed comments above, what i am saying is that the difference between Christian and Muslim modesty is not in degree but in kind.
It is incorrect and misleading to say that we have the same idea of modesty and muslim’s just believe in having more modesty than we do.
Let me repeat. Christians and Muslims use the same English word for two different concepts. Read #59 for a more detailed explaination.
With all due respect, please learn what does and does not differentiate us from the muslims. This is just one thing. But the list goes on. When we fail to grasp the differences we foster ignorance not only of our own faith but of also of Islam. What chance to our kids have if we tell them out of one side of our mouth that modesty is important to us and a wonderful value and then out of the other side say that muslims believe that women should be more modest than we do.
This paints a picture for our kids that we are not being as serious about modesty as we could be. Is it any wonder that so many muslim converts have already bought into the notion that Islam is just like Christianity only its more serious about morality?
The truth of the matter is that Christian modesty properly defined as the median between being shameless and being all covered up is as modest as any clear thinking person rightly believing person should be. We are not less modest than muslims. We are instead every bit as modest as we should be and their notion of modesty is a different beast all together.
Laila,
I hope that you are still checking back here. You have been unfair to me and I hope that i have the chance to convince you to give me and my comments a fair hearing.
I have just taken a lot of time and trouble to write to you. I hope that you read these comments and also that you will have a change of heart and return to read over my previous comments without the incorrect assumption about me that I have come to my conclusions about islam from afar and without any interest in receiving any muslim input. I value anyones and everyones opinion enough to carefully listen to them even if I dont in the end agree with them.
I will repeat in case you didnt notice when I said it before. I didnt make up my mind about Islam until I listened carefully to Muslim friends and read extensively about Islam from both the Christian and Muslim perspectives.
My other words to you follow below.
Laila,
Thank you for replying to my suggestion that muslims should maybe choose to live apart. God bless you for understanding that there can maybe be too much accomodation for muslims to ask of others.
Laila,
I am very happy that you come here. But I would be much happier if you used the brain that I don’t doubt that you have and really think about what I have said. Even better would be if you would try and answer some of the questions that I have asked if not for me and the folks here then for yourself. I also appreciate very much the responses that you did give to my comments. If you don’t answer me, then how can I know what you think and why you think it. Believe me I am interested to know. I want to learn more about what you think.
BTW I hope that you are not offended by this but I ask with all due respect how free can a person be if they are worried about what their friends and what they might think if you spent your time here openly? If you are worried about them giving you grief for coming here and you then modify you behavior to avoid trouble with them then how free are you really to make your own choices and to exercise your American right to come here openly if you dang well please.
What you may not realize is that there are more forms of coercion than at the point of a weapon. Most of the worst forms of coercion are far more subtle than that. Your concern that your friends or family would give you some kind of grief about coming here only illustrates my point. Most people don’t realize it when they come under the subtlest forms of coercion. Intelligence and education cant protect us from falling under its spell. We often need someone outside of our situation to point out to us that someone is taking away our choices through subtle means.
Laila, I hope that you can understand something else. Please know that we Christians do not disapprove of you as a human soul even if we disapprove of your beliefs and religious ideas. We believe that a person’s value and worth are both constant and infinite because all of us are a beloved children of God. He loves you in that way. He loves you in spite of your flaws and in spite of any bad or wrong ideas that you may have. He loves us in spite of ourselves as well. Christians believe in separating the person from their beliefs and actions. We can love the person and think well of them and not like or approve of their ideas even when they are a fellow Christian and we expect more of them than we do anyone else. I want you to know that in my mind you and any other decent law abiding Muslims are not the same to me as your ideas or your beliefs and my regard for you as a person is not lessened because I disagree with you or because I think that the more conservative Muslim practices should not be introduced into or forced onto our society at large.
Leila,
Laila,
When you said that you agree that maybe Muslims should live apart, I was very happy to hear you say that but I also thought I detected a tone of hurt or despair in your words. I hope that is not the case. I wouldn’t want you to be hurt or to despair. The suggestion that some Muslims should find a creative way to live apart doesn’t have to be a cause for hurt feelings at all. Here is why. Its not that we don’t want to accommodate you as much as we have the Jewish people. Its that we don’t want to accommodate you more than them. Can you appreciate the difference in asking for halal meals to be brought in for your kids when they are a minority in the school and asking for a halal kitchen and an environment that is inoffensive to them when they are in the majority? Many Muslims dont seem to get it. Can you see how asking for more and more takes away the rights of others? There are many kinds of Jews living in our country. Some merely require kosher meals and certain days off for holidays. Others like the Hasidim require a whole environment. For our part we have the decency to accommodate people of the first type and I thank God that we do. For their part, the Hasidim who require so much more have the decency to live apart instead of forcing everyone to live in an environment that suits only the Hasidim. I think that if a Muslim equates with the Conservative Jew, then there is no problem accommodating them. If those students should become the majority in a school and if nothing should change for the minority then there is still no problem. If a Muslim is more like a Hasidim in their requirements then they should live apart in peace just as they do without getting hurt feelings. Again there is no problem with this as long as they remain loyal and peaceful citizens.
The problem comes when Muslims who want to live in an environment that is inoffensive to them, gain numbers in an area and then start insisting on an environment that is inoffensive to their beliefs in spite of the fact that this insistence would take away the choices of others. The problem comes when Muslims insist on making America over in order to make it more Islam friendly. People get scared when they think of these people becoming a majority. Can you understand that? People wouldn’t be scared if all Muslims sincerely and publicly renounced their plans to ever try and transform our society to better suit themselves.
You asked earlier what you should tell your kids. Here is my answer. We struggled in this country long and hard to find the right balance between majority and minority and between freedom from religion and freedom of religion. Tell them that the way it is right now is a perfect as it gets and that this balance will be destroyed if either muslims succeed in introducing more Islam into the public sphere or if the secularists ever succeed in chasing Christianity out of places where it has always been in the mix. Tell them that they should be good American citizens and give up any ambitions to make America more Islamic. Tell them to be content to live apart if they want so much Islam that it would take away the choices and options of others if they didn’t. Tell them also that they are welcome to live among us as long as they desire only the most minimum of accommodations from the rest of society. Tell them that they can also trust Americans to protect and defend their rights as citizens no matter which way they choose even if it means dying for them even if we don’t always agree even if we don’t always get along with them. Tell them that will never change as far as most people here are concerned and that they have nothing to worry about from most Americans.
Laila,
This will be the last post I promise. I just ask that you go back and read all of my posts again with an open and fair mind without anymore assumptions about me. I wont guarantee that you will suddenly like what you or that you will suddenly agree with me or become my best friend but I hope that you will understand my arguments a little better. I have put a lot of thought and study into them.
Here they are and there are a lot of them but not all of them long so maybe not so much.
#46, 48, 53, 56, 59, 70, 72 & 73.
I dont by any means expect you to reply to it all but if you want to discuss anything further or answer any more of my questions I would be delighted to learn a little more about your views.
#85 hits it on the head. I think many of you just hate Islam. So nothing I say will matter. But I’ll still try to answer some questions.
1. Muslims are constantly calling against terrorism, it just doesn’t get picked up on prwire I guess
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
2. Its funny that there was a post saying that the past doesnt matter and then another post about how we Americans don’t know our western history. I agree with this last point deeply. I actually homeschool my children using a classical method of education because I want them to understand how historical events and great thinkers of the past affect us today. The past matters enormously and the current events are reflections of the past interactions of the West and “the Muslim world”, if you will. It does not excuse criminal behavior. But it does not negate the fact that events from 100 to 1000’s of years ago have an affect on us today.
3.Hijab is just a head covering that Muslim women wear. It comes in different fashions, colors fabrics. I believe during the height of colonialism the elite women in many Muslim cultures did not wear hijab, wanting to adopt more western attire, its always been worn amongst the common Muslim woman. Though not in the same way we wear it today. In the political climate of the 60’s many of the elite turned to hijab sometimes as a political statement as well as apart of coming back to their core Islamic beliefs. Please note there are 1 billion Muslims, who have diverse views and cultures. Also within Islam there is a history of scholarly debate, so it maybe in some culture hijab was not emphasized as much as in others.
I tried to find post about hijab but many were very technical. I think this one may answer some questions.
http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/Questions/QA00005119.aspx
I think that its for me. I don’t have the stamina to keep up with the comments here. I wish you all the best.
Ok, I forgot one more point.
4. Chrisitan Modesty. Here is an interesting essay in favor of christian modesty.
http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/article_122.shtml
quote:
“The feminist cry from our heathen society is, “But it’s MY body and MY choice how I dress!! I’ll do what I want!” Is the cry much different from our congregations? “But it’s MY Christian Liberty to dress the way I want! Legalism! I will do what I think is right!”
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:1-2
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Romans 6:13
Should we have the “liberty” to pick and choose what is worth obeying?”
Again all the best.
Leila,
So you are still around. I hope that you will read #93 thru 97 before you go.
And also read #59.
(How many times will I have to say that in one day?
Did anyone read it???)
Once more. The Christian meaning of modesty is different from Islamic meaning of modesty. They are not related. We mean completely different things by the word and and always have.
And please dont direct me to mujahabah. She is the one that learned the most from about Islam. She once haunted Sound Vision. I know her too well and I’ve listened to her more than enough.
OK, why am I still here…
Peggy I didn’t see all your comments. I don’t think I can answer everything, I think I hit some points above. I just wanted to point out I think you are reading too much into me anonymously posting. I can’t possibly be the only person who does it. I’m not scared of anyone, I’m not going to get any lashes (ha ha, joke). Basically I’m just a bit shallow. Its a character flaw and I am praying to God to help me with it, along with my many others.
Peggy I hope I have not offended you, I wasn’t trying to come off as harsh, if I have I apologize. I guess it gets frustrating that people don’t see that people actually believe in Islam because they think its a beautiful way of life and the best path to God. You can disagree but there are many of us who love this way of life, love wearing our scarves and love being modest. These include women who are highly educated, westerners, some who converted to Islam. In fact many women who convert used to be strict Christians but they found that Islam was the truth for them. Again I don’t expect you to believe as I do but please recognize that we exist, women who are intellegent and who freely choose to follow Islam. And I know that that is one of the great things about America, that I can freely chose my religion. I am immensely grateful that I live here and have the opportunity to practice as I believe. The vast majority of the Muslims who live here are equally grateful even if some don’t agree with our foreign policies, they admire the political system in the USA.
the muhajabah link is showing how many Muslims have condemned terrorism throughout the years but it seems they dont get the media attention.
so Peggy, I liked that last post about the advice to my children. I did have a question, is wearing hijab too much of an accomadation?
Leila,
By the way I just read that article on Sunni Path and its nothing new to me. I am familiar with those arguments and my conclusion is that they are complete non-sense.
Please see #70 & 72. No need to respond. Just read and be fair.
No it is not healthy or a divine shield. Hogwash. A woman who is convinced she needs a special outfit to be complete or feel safe or to have the respect of others is one that has swallowed a lie that she doesnt have the tools internally to deal with life. Sorry not buying it. Every woman has all that she needs to deal with life and be close to God without the special outfit. I am complete and safe and close to God no matter what I wear. You do not need it either since you are not essentially different from me. God did not make some of us independent and some of us dependent. He meant for us all to be independent and his desire is for us all to be what he intended for us.
If you feel like you need the hijab then pray to God to need only Him. He will gladly heal you of your weakness.
And if the hijab isnt good but supposedly God commanded it then God commanded a wrong thing. Then He commanded for women to be dependent on a special magic suit that will supposedly control the thoughts of others and keep harm away. Since God cant command a wrong or even a useless thing, then God must not have commanded it. Therefore even saying that one should wear it just because he said so also doesnt hold water.
I used to think that I needed alot of things that I didnt really need. I was once almost swayed by the arguments of islam. But God rescued me. He gave me healing and strength that I never knew that i had. He got me out of a jam of wrong headedness so bad that I could never have gotten myself out. He continues to heal me and provide for my needs to this day directly through his Spirit (perfectly happy with how I dress BTW) within the temple of my body.
People are always convincing themselves that they need something to feel good and to be special. Its just not true.
Thanks for the link though. It was a pretty good explaination for what its worth. As far as your Christian essay goes it is a misinterpretation of the word members if you think it means hiding a person’s skin and outward appearance. Its traditional interpretation going way back is to keep from using our bodies hands, feet, mouths etc to do evil.
As I said in #59 when Christians say the word modest we mean something different than when Muslims use the word. Modesty for us is moderation. The women of that site as properly against, as am I, the extremes of immodesty seen today among many young women and for a return to a moderate conception of modesty which lies in the middle between taking off too much and g.oing to the other extreme of putting on too much and hoarding the beauty that God meant to be seen and to grace society every bit as much as the beauty of our characters. The world is robbed of the beauty that God gave women when the hijab is worn. The woman is robbed of the freedom to feel the sun and wind on skin without making elaborate and inconvenient arrangements to do so.
re: 103
Yes I think it is when muslims insist on wearing it in school and at work.
I am not for forcing women to not wear it as happens in Turkey. I think that if one wants to wear it as a member of an instituion like a school or a non-muslim business then it shouldnt be accomodated. But if a woman needed a government service for instance and was not a permanent fixture then it would be ok. The same would go for being out in public and working in muslim owned businesses.
As i mentioned earlier, the headscarf is the islamic equivalent of the Christian tract. If the Christian tract doesnt have a place in public (though some would argue otherwise) then neither does the headscarf. I wish I had the time to recap why the headscarf is a bad idea. But i just dont. I have spent too much time here. In short, it doesnt matter how intelligent a woman is, or how free she is to choose. Eventually, the number of women wearing the headscarf out of misguided sense of modesty and piety reaches a critical mass in a given muslim community and the pressure for good girls to wear it to distinguish themselves from the girls who dont “love” God as much increases. Before long it becomes rare for a girl who “loves God and modesty” to choose not wear the headscarf. At that point it becomes expected of good girls and then no good girl has a choice to do differently.
Further along in this progression, we get a society that has never seen a womans hair in public. The men have become weak from not using their own strength to respect the uncovered woman. The sight of even a ankle is enough to cause mass societal outrage. The ankle or the head of hair becomes a threat decent society.
And what of the girl of this society that one day decides that she personally chooses not to cover. The consequences are so severe for her that few would be strong enough to follow.
Its not the same, BTW, if a mass of women uncovers or if the government orders it. Then women can choose not to wear it again. But the cycle always returns and is always intiated by women choosing to cover.
So yes, society should be as largely free of the influence of the headscarf as possible. All it takes is for one woman to define it as modesty and piety to start the pressure for others.
Someone made a good point earlier which I very much agree with. If the headscarf means that a muslim girl loves God and is obedient to him, the natural implication is that women who do not wear it dont love God as much. How is a good girl who wants to please God supposed to choose to dress in a way that marks her as someone who doesnt really love God? She can’t, really. So wearing the headscarf is then her only choice and that is no choice at all.
Can you see the flaw here? Can you see the subtle coercion inherant in the headscarf?
I look at the big picture. That is one thing that God blessed me with when he rescued me. When muslims are the minority, there is no problem for anyone. Women get to choose to cover etc. Everyone is free to choose. But a religion if it is good will also be good when it dominates a given population. But the more Islam comes to dominate a population, the coercion inherant in it becomes more and more obvious until there is no escaping from it even should one want to.
Project this all dominating way of life to encompass the whole world and there would be only beggars choices for everyone everywhere.
I can well understand how islam can seduce a even the most intelligent person. The best lies are the most attractive ones. Real peace and false peace feel the same to us. Only an objective view can distinguish one from the other. Intelligence is no protection against the human mind being fooled by falsehood. Neither is education. The most intelligent people are also the most arrogant about their own mental abilities (mujahabah a perfect case in point in my mind) and the most prone to join cults (not saying islam a cult) and to lose perspective and objectivity. It is a flaw inherant and common in very very smart people.
Ok gotta be the last word for now. But I have read the testimonies of hundreds if not thousands of muslim converts and its the ones that claimed to the devout Christians that least impress me for the very reason that they will themselves admit that they didnt really feel it or they were going through the motions or that they were the most enthusiastic of anyone and they still didnt feel fulfilled. Then they got tired of waiting to be happy with their religion and concluded that they could never (said very dramtically) find real peace in Christianity. Then they come across islam and like magic they discover a mechanism and a system that solves all of their worst problems. The tragedy is that these people are the over acheivers and perfectionists among us. That is why they seemed so devout. That is why they were so involved in the church. These kinds can only be happy with achieving perfection and cant be happy if there are any loose ends in their lives. But then all of their business and effort doesnt make them happy so they turn to the faith with supposedly all the answers and they give it all up exhausted by going it alone and jumping at the chance of always knowing what to do and always having everything in the right place.
But there is a peace that comes without any of that and those who are true Christians have it in some degree or another. No system or mechanism to human happiness could ever take its place. We could be stripped of every crutch that gives us false peace and be thrown in the pit and we would still feel that all sufficient Presence. Those who convert to islam never felt this and gave up trying when the going got the toughest. You see, I can very much relate to alot of what they went through. Only what happened was that I, by the Grace of God alone, held on through the part where I wanted to quit and just do the easier thing and be a muslim. On the other side was my inexpressable reward. It is available to all who persist in Christ even if it takes a lifetime to find it. Took me 32 years. Takes many people even longer. A lack of trust, perspective leads to attraction to islam as far as I am concerned. I see it in every testimony by former Christians. Christ will not force himself on those who do not trust him and so those who do not trust him will never find his true peace which needs no prop or mechanism to be felt even in the worse of situations.
Dear Lord, heal me of diarreah of the keyboard. I have to go to bed now.
So, once again, why are all non-Muslim females “fair game” for Muslim males, whereas even casual dating between a Muslim female and an infidel black man or other race strictly forbidden in all Muslim communities in the West? Why in Muslim lands is the same relationship set accepted, only with the added force of death for any Muslim female and infidel man in a relationship under Sharia Law? How is this different than the worst white supremacist times in history?
Laila – The past matters enormously and the current events are reflections of the past interactions of the West and “the Muslim worldâ€, if you will. It does not excuse criminal behavior. But it does not negate the fact that events from 100 to 1000’s of years ago have an affect on us today.
Muslims are famous for “ancient grievances” – the Crusades, the temerity of the forces of Christianity to defeat them at the Gates of Vienna, loss of Spain. They insist on reclaimation (of Spain) or apologies for the CRusades, etc. If the past is so important to Muslims, then where are THEIR apologies for being the enslavers and sellers of black Africans, for still practicing slavery of black Africans in the 20th Century? Where are their apologies for the conquest of Christian N. Africa, Egypt, the Levant…and mass slaughter of Christians who refused to convert…and well as the slaughter of Zoroastrans in Iran and Buhddists in Northern India? The answer of course is there are none. Only ancient Muslim grievances have validity. Not those of the enemy “other” Muslims fight.
Headscarves (or Hajibs). If you look at old pictures of Muslim countries, the hajib is completely absent until you get into backward rural villages. If you look at pictures of the Muslim immigrants coming into France, UK back in the 50s and 60s – none of the women wear the hajib.
The hajib as obligatory for all women, or the universal required wearing of the Chador in Iran
are recent phenomena. Why?
1. The change in “Muslim dress code” tracks both the rise in radical Islam and the rebellion against Western ways, even if the Muslim woman is a 3rd Generation Western nation citizen.
2. Like gang scarves, Muslim hajibs are distinct in certain places like Palestine and Dearborn and Cairo – they can and do show loyalty and identification with Hamas, Hezbollah, Jamu al-Kashmir, Egyptian Brotherhood, JI, Islamic Jihad, being a devout Wahabbi Salafist, PLA. In Dearborn, Michigan for example, whole neighborhoods have their women under the “Hamas Hajib”.
3. There is nothing in the Qu’ran or the Hadiths about men being able to wear what they want, but women required to cover themselves completely to avoid “stimulating the lusts of men”. Again, this is interpretation of the level of modesty the man of the family enforces in his subject women. And the interpretation of neighbors in turn of how well the man controls his women in radical times. It has nothing to do with devoutness.
4. As Muslims leave the village where everyone knows everyone, the danger of Muslim women fraternizing with infidel men escalates – just as sexual opportunities for Muslim men expands because they are under no such barriers. The hajib is helpful for Muslim strangers to mark, identify, and monitor the behavior of Muslim women who are not known to their families – but Muslim honor demands they be watched out for by “brother Muslim men” in school, university, and in public for unacceptable behavior.
*** – For extra credit: If a Muslim man hits on you, have a little fun. Tell him your brother just broke up with his girlfriend and wants to “test-drive” a Muslim woman, so how about a double date?? Watch the Muslim guy walk away muttering…
Sorry, I should have added a #5, based on what Peggy said.
5. The hajib, like the Iranian Chador, is a radicalizing tool. It allows Muslims at a glance to tell which Muslim women accept the demand to cover their bodies. After the hajib comes the full-length robe that must be worn even to gym class as a sign of the “devoutness” that is totally absent in even recent images of Muslim women inside the Ummah (hajibless, robeless – playing soccer or just being about in 1930s-1980s Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia). Only Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan, and remote tribal villages of the recent Muslim era insisted on hajibs and “full cover”.
It is a valuable training device for children to show they are separate from other children in the West, a different tribe meant to keep to their own kind and not to blend or make friends “with the other”. The Jewish Hasidim practice the same distinctive attire as a way to enforce their own “non-blending” and maintain a distinct culture.
Another aside – Muslims are master slavers. Unlike Muslim women which are “protected” by Muslim males and their many restrictions inc. dress codes and beatings for being too close to infidels…Muslim men are delighted to have an open field where infidel men do not “protect” infidel women – all are “fair game”, and the Muslim man can offer…in return for green cards, Muslim kids..the reward of eliminating all the doubts of those women about their society with a whole new system and a deep sense of community and a support network of a billion other similarly minded people…and few agonizing decisions have to be made anymore in a world of elaborate rules ordering each part of life. For a submissive women seeking certainty, strength, order, and concrete goals of becoming a “better Muslim” through each day bringing new “Muslim life accomplishments” – Islam can be quite alluring. But watching a flock of Muslim women being herded along by their “master” men, I see master slavers plying their millenia-old trade.
An article on islam women and the law in Pakistan. It raises two separate issues – one, that oppression of women in the muslim culture is _real_, and second, that perhaps there is hope.
http://tinyurl.com/ftw69
Here’s another one on the role of women and islam…
http://tinyurl.com/eaphp
>>That said, I’m an african american female and my fiancee is a muslim from pakistan. He is a wonderful man: very intelligent (phd is physics), serious, and open minded. He has friends who are just like them and his friends have friends just like them.>>
Missed this before.
Riiight. And where are they living? As long as they are living in the US of A, things are hunky dory. If you go back to Pakistan as his wife, say good-by to any rights you may think you have – they don’t exist over there. If you have children, he _might_ let _you_ go(if you’re lucky), but your kids will stay there – and the law will back him. Repeat: You will have _no_ as in ZERO rights under their law. Even if you live in the US of A, if he takes your children to Pakistan for any reason, he can keep them there, and the charge of kidnapping simply doesn’t exist – because they are _his_ – and you have no rights.
Of course, maybe you don’t intend to have children. Don’t go to Pakistan with him – you don’t have _that_ right either. Don’t marry and go visit his family – he can leave you there and come back for “seconds”…and you have _no_ rights. It isn’t kidnapping. He owns you.
You’re obviously capable – check it out.
#106 Chris: You have done a masterful job detailing the whole phony hajib claim. I had hoped the “anonymous muslim” would reveal more of the convoluted piety and devotion justification.
For those not familiar with the many tenacles of jihad, the hajib is little more than an identifying uniform within the cults of jihad. Whether every wearer identifies with that is unimportant.
Another interesting aspect of the whole modesty gambit is how the men dress their women at home. There are clothing stores in Cairo that make Victoria’s Secret look like Office Depot.
And, everyone should get a chance to watch the widely watched Mideastern version of MTV. Even the mud huts often sprout a “Dish” for watching TV powered by a generator. The jihad cartoon network would make your skin crawl. Lovely.
To build on what Chris Ford has said, Muslim countries didn’t become Muslim just out of thin air. They became that way through invasion, subjugation, and enslavement. Let’s ask the Copts, the Nubians, the Assyrians, the Lebanese Christians how well they’re treated now that their former lands have become Islamic. Islam spreads the same way Muhammad spread it – by cutting throats.
On the topic of modesty – a virtue isn’t a virtue if it’s enforced by society. It’s only a virtue if it’s practiced willingly. The hijab is one such example. I’ve seen pictures of Afghanistan before the Taliban got there. Very few women were walking around in chadors.
#79 Edub –
I strongly suggest you read “Inside the Kingdom” by Carmen bin Ladin before you make any decision to move to Pakistan.
#109 – Suek, you just gave her some solid advice.
This is a wonderful and thought-provoking thread. As someone with several Muslim friends, I have questioned the whole idea of hijab. My Palestinian neighbor gave me the honor of showing me her closet with her gorgeous dresses (I forgot what they’re called), all within the boundaries of sharia. The dresses were each quite costly with hand stitching and natural fabrics. I got the idea that she felt toward them as I would feel toward an ethnic outfit from one of my countries of origin, with fondness and pride. Her mother wears a Hermes scarf as her hijab; my friend often goes without in more of an effort to blend in with American society.
My feelings on hijab seem a bit intolerant, but I’m not sure how to break away from them since they seem perfectly logical. One day, my daughters and I were driving home and saw my neighbor had friends visiting who were in full burkhas. My daughters were shocked and looked to me for understanding. I found that I could not give a pc line about respecting other peoples’ religions; it was a hot day and those poor women obviously could not see a darn thing out of those saunas. I told them that we should pray for those women who were prisoners of their religion and who falsely believed that God required them to prove modesty by covering up entirely.
You see, I believe that modesty is a state of mind that will naturally come forth in your manner of dress if you possess it. Modesty, to me, goes along with humility, and part of being humble is not being so preoccupied with your outer dress that you feel that you have to conform to what others expect you to wear. God expects modesty, humility, neatness, cleanliness, and all of those virtues that cry self-respect and thankfulness for the health our Lord has bequeathed upon us. Hijab, especially the burkhas, seems so earthly to me, so human.
I have avoided saying anything because I know I am in the minority of Christian women here, but I still have to disagree with Peggy, that for Christian women modesty is *merely* moderation.
Looking upon a woman lustfully is adultery according to Jesus, and I do bear some responsibility for that if I dressing, speaking or acting in a provocative way. Christian modesty is refusing to give in to that temptation (to be provocative). I keep my legs and cleavage covered anytime I am in public including the public pool. My husband won’t even *go* to the beach (30 minutes away!) because he doesn’t want his eyes assaulted by women in their underwear.
We believe this is what it means to be chaste, pure and modest, so please do not speak for all Christians when you say that we believe we are free to prance about in bathing suits. Plenty of Christians would disagree!
This is not to say that Christians and Muslims view modesty the same way. In Christian modesty, it is about the heart. My heart’s desire is to avoid making a weaker brother stumble as well as to please my Lord who commands such humility, even if it means not receiving my “right” to feel the sun on my bare abdomen in public. My goal is glorifying God by loving Him and loving others. The Muslim goal is not to love and protect women and the men who view them, but to control women.
In 105, Peggy made this point: “If the headscarf means that a muslim girl loves God and is obedient to him, the natural implication is that women who do not wear it dont [sic] love God as much.”
I dress modestly because I love God (though I’m not Muslim and don’t wear a headcovering!) I’m not implying women who wear shorts don’t love God as much. This is another difference between Christian and Muslim modesty: I can say my reason for avoiding shorts is that I love God and have a conviction that He doesn’t want me to wear them. My friend Lindsay is a godly young woman who wears shorts and tank tops. She and I have different convictions. But she loves God and was saved by Him just the same. Do I think she is wrong? Well, yeah, in this case I do, but I cannot say I am holier, or love God more than she does. Why? Because I know the darkness of my own heart and that any good in me is from Him! How could I boast about something that is a gift? Even a conviction! That is a gift as well, and I am a proud fool if I boast about it. There is plenty of remaining sin in me so that I have no room to boast about my meager little obedience!
I also have to say I am impressed and humbled by Laila’s gracious and gentle replies. I would hope to have soft answers as you have offered were I in your place as the sole defender of my own beliefs.
>>I also have to say I am impressed and humbled by Laila’s gracious and gentle replies. I would hope to have soft answers as you have offered were I in your place as the sole defender of my own beliefs.>>
Her answers are hers, and I have no objections to any woman wearing a burka if that’s her choice. I object to a culture that seeks to enforce _their_ religious standards on others. Others of her faith are not so “gentle”.
Be aware too, that muslims practice taqqiyah, which is lying to benefit islam. They are permitted – even encouraged – to sooth, coo and seduce the non-muslim until such a person permits the enforcement of muslim standards.
Frankly, I never realized – until becoming fully aware of this taqqiyah – how corrosive this sort of lying can be. For me, the result is that I trust _no_ muslim. That’s not a good thing. I think it’s necessary, but I don’t like it.
After reading all these comments, it occurs to me that it all boils down to one thing. It is easy to say how peaceful, respectful and tolerant a religion is, but it is quite another to actually be those things. I think that is the problem here. There truly is an elephant in the living room that because of the current climate of political correctness we can not address.
A few questions I’d like to ask Laila.
1. Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist. And by right to exist, I mean controlling all the land even the Palestinians claim as theirs.
2. Why is Jesus only considered a “great prophet” by Islam when He said he was the Son of God? How can this be?
#117 luke, I sorta believed Leila up until she made the comment about the Jews when they settled in NY and PA. Good point about Jesus.
suek, I have never before heard of taqqiyah! I looked it up to verify your post. It is indeed true. Why does no one speak of this taqqiyah? Perhaps this is why there seems to such a disconnect between the claims of muslims and what we actually see. To further their own religous ideology they tell the West what they think we want to hear. I saw a woman today in one of those black things with the slit in the eye area. It was 88 degrees outside. She was covered head to toe. The man with her was coolly dressed with his air passages unhindered and looked quite comfortable. I was thinking that in some Islamic societies it is against the law for the women to venture out unless dressed this way! I wondered if that is what they want here.
>>I have never before heard of taqqiyah!>>
Neither had I before 9/11. I can’t claim to be knowledgeable still, but what I’ve learned has certainly been eye-opening! and I don’t much like what I see.
>> I looked it up to verify your post.>>
Thank you for doing that. I don’t blame you – it’s pretty unbelievable, isn’t it!
>> It is indeed true. Why does no one speak of this taqqiyah? >>
Some do. Muslims reply that it isn’t true – that it’s only justified in cases where muslims are in a minority position and aren’t held morally responsible if lying is necessary to avoid death or other unacceptable punishments due to their religion. Remember that old riddle of asking the two men directions – one of whom couldn’t lie and the other couldn’t tell the truth? Modern muslims don’t seem to intrepret the “benefit” to islam to include life threatening decisions only – their goal is to establish the whole world as the Grand Caliphate of Allah. Anything that leads to that is ok.
>>Perhaps this is why there seems to such a disconnect between the claims of muslims and what we actually see.>>
Agreed.
>> To further their own religous ideology they tell the West what they think we want to hear.>>
And fatuous fools that we are, we swallow it hook, line and sinker! We need to wake up and smell the coffee, or we’re sunk. On the plus side, I _do_ think that lack of any kind religious beliefs is a factor, and in that regard, Europe is falling, the US is in danger. The influx of Mexicans is certainly a threat to our culture, but I sometimes wonder if in the end, we’ll be in a clash between mostly Catholic Mexicans and islamic muslims. That could be ironic! We may end up losing our culture in order to save our culture – since the Mexicans are certainly closer to ours than the muslims are.
Belle, if you’re still checking in, check MM’s 9/11 blog today (link below). About half-way down, there’s a list of bloggers/writers who are excellent educational sources on the muslim issue. Also, check out AmericanThinker.com fairly regularly – very good stuff, some _very_ long, some short.
http://tinyurl.com/h3nry
Laila and Peggy, allow me to interrupt this interesting conversation with a story about myself. It may seem to be coming from far afield, but it applies to the debate on the head scarf, etc.
I was born into a Methodist family, and spent my childhood following the traditions of that faith. When I grew up, however, I started thinking along different lines. Methodists have a reputation for being… well… methodical, and the reputation is well-earned. That was what I rebelled against.
When I was in my 20’s, I started attending a Methodist church near my home. I kept coming to services, but did not “join” the church. After several weeks, I was called to the minister’s office one Sunday, where I met with him and the church’s secretary.
There, they started cross-examining me about where I came from, where was my last church, where was my membership in the Methodist community, and could I give them a copy of my baptismal certificate?
I just stared at them, pretending to be unable to believe what I was hearing. So I asked, “Why?”
They looked at each other, completely nonplussed. The secretary finally offered, “We have to keep up with our records. That’s the way things are done.”
I just shook my head, got up, and did not go back.
A few weeks later, I saw the minister in a shopping center (malls weren’t invented yet
), and he wanted to know what they had said that had offended me so much.
So I once again asked why they needed proof that I was a Methodist, was baptised, etc.
He repeated the secretary’s comment about keeping records straight.
So I told him, “I’m really sorry that I have to explain this to a man of God, but the fact is that GOD knows I’m a loyal Christian, GOD knows that I was baptised, GOD even knows that I’m of the Methodist flavor… and NO one else’s opinion on the subject matters! I was coming to your services because you’re a good minister and I liked your sermons. But I am a very private person and don’t like people poking around in my business.”
The minister seemed a bit chastised, and allowed as how I might be able to attend services without the formality of joining.
“Well, that’s real Christian of you,” I said with a bit of sarcasm.
“All right, all right,” he said, catching my drift easily and finally seeing the humor of the situation and laughing. “No strings attached. At all.” So I started going to his church again. No strings attached.
Now, how this relates to the “scarf, etc” conversation is a part of what Peggy has been saying. Outward visual signs of religion are only signs to be read by other humans. GOD doesn’t care. God KNOWS what is in your heart. And HIS opinion is the ONLY one that matters.
You either believe in an all-knowing God, or you don’t. If your God is all-knowing, outward signs of what you believe are totally irrelevant. God KNOWS what is in your heart. If you feel a need to show outward signs, you are saying that you just want to make sure God knows you believe in him… which shows, IMHO, a lack of trust in His ability to see your heart.
If you truly believe in God and still feel the need to show outward signs, what you are doing is showing outward signs for the sake of humans whose opinions do not matter in the REAL scheme of things.
“I would like to know why we all went nuts over South Africa’s loathsome apartheid in the 1980s, demanding that they change everything about their society and culture”
I think the socialists who dislike christianity are pushing the acceptance of Islam for a reason. When Islam gets to be too difficult to deal with they will say, “To be fair, we have to eliminate the observance of all religion.”
#122.
But sn’t the ‘real’ scheme of things as you described, a re-interpretation or disavowal of the bible? I quote again:
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
There is simply too much discrepancy in the above statement and yours for me to believe both?
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