But sn’t the ‘real’ scheme of things as you described, a re-interpretation or disavowal of the bible? I quote again:

11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

There is simply too much discrepancy in the above statement and yours for me to believe both?

I think the socialists who dislike christianity are pushing the acceptance of Islam for a reason. When Islam gets to be too difficult to deal with they will say, “To be fair, we have to eliminate the observance of all religion.”

I was born into a Methodist family, and spent my childhood following the traditions of that faith. When I grew up, however, I started thinking along different lines. Methodists have a reputation for being… well… methodical, and the reputation is well-earned. That was what I rebelled against.

When I was in my 20’s, I started attending a Methodist church near my home. I kept coming to services, but did not “join” the church. After several weeks, I was called to the minister’s office one Sunday, where I met with him and the church’s secretary.

There, they started cross-examining me about where I came from, where was my last church, where was my membership in the Methodist community, and could I give them a copy of my baptismal certificate?

I just stared at them, pretending to be unable to believe what I was hearing. So I asked, “Why?”

They looked at each other, completely nonplussed. The secretary finally offered, “We have to keep up with our records. That’s the way things are done.”

I just shook my head, got up, and did not go back.

A few weeks later, I saw the minister in a shopping center (malls weren’t invented yet ), and he wanted to know what they had said that had offended me so much.

So I once again asked why they needed proof that I was a Methodist, was baptised, etc.

He repeated the secretary’s comment about keeping records straight.

So I told him, “I’m really sorry that I have to explain this to a man of God, but the fact is that GOD knows I’m a loyal Christian, GOD knows that I was baptised, GOD even knows that I’m of the Methodist flavor… and NO one else’s opinion on the subject matters! I was coming to your services because you’re a good minister and I liked your sermons. But I am a very private person and don’t like people poking around in my business.”

The minister seemed a bit chastised, and allowed as how I might be able to attend services without the formality of joining.

“Well, that’s real Christian of you,” I said with a bit of sarcasm.

“All right, all right,” he said, catching my drift easily and finally seeing the humor of the situation and laughing. “No strings attached. At all.” So I started going to his church again. No strings attached.

Now, how this relates to the “scarf, etc” conversation is a part of what Peggy has been saying. Outward visual signs of religion are only signs to be read by other humans. GOD doesn’t care. God KNOWS what is in your heart. And HIS opinion is the ONLY one that matters.

You either believe in an all-knowing God, or you don’t. If your God is all-knowing, outward signs of what you believe are totally irrelevant. God KNOWS what is in your heart. If you feel a need to show outward signs, you are saying that you just want to make sure God knows you believe in him… which shows, IMHO, a lack of trust in His ability to see your heart.

If you truly believe in God and still feel the need to show outward signs, what you are doing is showing outward signs for the sake of humans whose opinions do not matter in the REAL scheme of things.

http://tinyurl.com/h3nry

Neither had I before 9/11. I can’t claim to be knowledgeable still, but what I’ve learned has certainly been eye-opening! and I don’t much like what I see.

>> I looked it up to verify your post.>>

Thank you for doing that. I don’t blame you – it’s pretty unbelievable, isn’t it!

>> It is indeed true. Why does no one speak of this taqqiyah? >>

Some do. Muslims reply that it isn’t true – that it’s only justified in cases where muslims are in a minority position and aren’t held morally responsible if lying is necessary to avoid death or other unacceptable punishments due to their religion. Remember that old riddle of asking the two men directions – one of whom couldn’t lie and the other couldn’t tell the truth? Modern muslims don’t seem to intrepret the “benefit” to islam to include life threatening decisions only – their goal is to establish the whole world as the Grand Caliphate of Allah. Anything that leads to that is ok.

>>Perhaps this is why there seems to such a disconnect between the claims of muslims and what we actually see.>>

Agreed.

>> To further their own religous ideology they tell the West what they think we want to hear.>>

And fatuous fools that we are, we swallow it hook, line and sinker! We need to wake up and smell the coffee, or we’re sunk. On the plus side, I _do_ think that lack of any kind religious beliefs is a factor, and in that regard, Europe is falling, the US is in danger. The influx of Mexicans is certainly a threat to our culture, but I sometimes wonder if in the end, we’ll be in a clash between mostly Catholic Mexicans and islamic muslims. That could be ironic! We may end up losing our culture in order to save our culture – since the Mexicans are certainly closer to ours than the muslims are.

1. Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist. And by right to exist, I mean controlling all the land even the Palestinians claim as theirs.

2. Why is Jesus only considered a “great prophet” by Islam when He said he was the Son of God? How can this be?

Her answers are hers, and I have no objections to any woman wearing a burka if that’s her choice. I object to a culture that seeks to enforce _their_ religious standards on others. Others of her faith are not so “gentle”.
Be aware too, that muslims practice taqqiyah, which is lying to benefit islam. They are permitted – even encouraged – to sooth, coo and seduce the non-muslim until such a person permits the enforcement of muslim standards.
Frankly, I never realized – until becoming fully aware of this taqqiyah – how corrosive this sort of lying can be. For me, the result is that I trust _no_ muslim. That’s not a good thing. I think it’s necessary, but I don’t like it.

Looking upon a woman lustfully is adultery according to Jesus, and I do bear some responsibility for that if I dressing, speaking or acting in a provocative way. Christian modesty is refusing to give in to that temptation (to be provocative). I keep my legs and cleavage covered anytime I am in public including the public pool. My husband won’t even *go* to the beach (30 minutes away!) because he doesn’t want his eyes assaulted by women in their underwear.

We believe this is what it means to be chaste, pure and modest, so please do not speak for all Christians when you say that we believe we are free to prance about in bathing suits. Plenty of Christians would disagree!

This is not to say that Christians and Muslims view modesty the same way. In Christian modesty, it is about the heart. My heart’s desire is to avoid making a weaker brother stumble as well as to please my Lord who commands such humility, even if it means not receiving my “right” to feel the sun on my bare abdomen in public. My goal is glorifying God by loving Him and loving others. The Muslim goal is not to love and protect women and the men who view them, but to control women.

In 105, Peggy made this point: “If the headscarf means that a muslim girl loves God and is obedient to him, the natural implication is that women who do not wear it dont [sic] love God as much.”

I dress modestly because I love God (though I’m not Muslim and don’t wear a headcovering!) I’m not implying women who wear shorts don’t love God as much. This is another difference between Christian and Muslim modesty: I can say my reason for avoiding shorts is that I love God and have a conviction that He doesn’t want me to wear them. My friend Lindsay is a godly young woman who wears shorts and tank tops. She and I have different convictions. But she loves God and was saved by Him just the same. Do I think she is wrong? Well, yeah, in this case I do, but I cannot say I am holier, or love God more than she does. Why? Because I know the darkness of my own heart and that any good in me is from Him! How could I boast about something that is a gift? Even a conviction! That is a gift as well, and I am a proud fool if I boast about it. There is plenty of remaining sin in me so that I have no room to boast about my meager little obedience!

I also have to say I am impressed and humbled by Laila’s gracious and gentle replies. I would hope to have soft answers as you have offered were I in your place as the sole defender of my own beliefs.

My feelings on hijab seem a bit intolerant, but I’m not sure how to break away from them since they seem perfectly logical. One day, my daughters and I were driving home and saw my neighbor had friends visiting who were in full burkhas. My daughters were shocked and looked to me for understanding. I found that I could not give a pc line about respecting other peoples’ religions; it was a hot day and those poor women obviously could not see a darn thing out of those saunas. I told them that we should pray for those women who were prisoners of their religion and who falsely believed that God required them to prove modesty by covering up entirely.

You see, I believe that modesty is a state of mind that will naturally come forth in your manner of dress if you possess it. Modesty, to me, goes along with humility, and part of being humble is not being so preoccupied with your outer dress that you feel that you have to conform to what others expect you to wear. God expects modesty, humility, neatness, cleanliness, and all of those virtues that cry self-respect and thankfulness for the health our Lord has bequeathed upon us. Hijab, especially the burkhas, seems so earthly to me, so human.

I strongly suggest you read “Inside the Kingdom” by Carmen bin Ladin before you make any decision to move to Pakistan.

#109 – Suek, you just gave her some solid advice.

On the topic of modesty – a virtue isn’t a virtue if it’s enforced by society. It’s only a virtue if it’s practiced willingly. The hijab is one such example. I’ve seen pictures of Afghanistan before the Taliban got there. Very few women were walking around in chadors.

For those not familiar with the many tenacles of jihad, the hajib is little more than an identifying uniform within the cults of jihad. Whether every wearer identifies with that is unimportant.

Another interesting aspect of the whole modesty gambit is how the men dress their women at home. There are clothing stores in Cairo that make Victoria’s Secret look like Office Depot.

And, everyone should get a chance to watch the widely watched Mideastern version of MTV. Even the mud huts often sprout a “Dish” for watching TV powered by a generator. The jihad cartoon network would make your skin crawl. Lovely.