Monday, October 9: This post is closed to commenting, but you may resume the discussion in this thread.
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David Downing of Downing World tipped me off to recent developments in his community. The new school superintendent for St. Paul Public Schools, Dr. Meria Carstarphen, is holding a series of “community conversions” with various ethnic groups. He received a flyer in the mail (PDF).
Events are: African American Community Conversation, Somali Community Conversation, Waa Lagu Martiqaaday, La Kulanka-something, Latino Community Conversation, and Hmong Community Conversation. Anyone missing?
David says the population of St. Paul schools is about 30 percent Asian, 29 percent black, 28 percent white, 11 percent Hispanic, 1 percent American Indian, and 1 percent other. He learned that the meetings supposedly were organized because members of those communities requested them.
I’m wondering the same thing David’s wondering. If whites requested a government school district-sponsored “White Community Conversation,” would Dr. Carstarphen and the school district be “down”?
The question is rhetorical. I just wanted to show you another example of insidious racial double standards. I won’t elaborate; if you’ve been reading this blog for a while, you know where I stand.
Somewhat related: Training the Bush-hating generation
The “White Community” is split roughly 50/50, with the liberal 50 hating itself and teaching self-hate to our youth. The ultimate expression of the embrace of diversity for these whites is for them to openly demean their own race (or in this case ignore it) in front of non whites.
The liberal 50 might one day just get what they want, only to realize that the reach around for their-kind-of-whites never happens.
Regards LaShawn,
Buck
Comment by Bucktowndusty — 10.05.06 @ 10:54 am
I think Mr. Downing is reaching at best. I don’t see a problem with her meeting with these various groups, especially if they reached out to her and not the other way around. I lived in Minnesota for 3 years so I am quite aware that though Minnesota is primarily white, the school districts of the both Minneapolis and St. Paul are primarily minority kids and those kids have had struggles with the testing that is required. If anything I commend those parents and community groups for being proactive and requesting meetings with the new Superintendent. If the Lutherans or Jewish community groups (both of which are primarily white organizations) wanted to meet with her, it would be OK as well and I would applaud them for being proactive as well.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 11:09 am
Ah, you missed it, Tiffany. The point of the post is not that “minorities” wanted community meetings. It’s that parents requesting a “white” community meeting — and not one based on religion but on race like the others — would be turned down flat.
I doubt white parents care enough to test the theory, but if they did, I’d put money on it.
Comment by La Shawn — 10.05.06 @ 11:20 am
Well I guess the white folks need to get to asking don’t they…
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 11:24 am
La Shawn, the “Waa Lagu Martiqaaday” and “La Kulanka-something” are not meetings. They are translations of the invitation and the “Somali Community” announcement. If you look you will see Dr. Carstarphen’s name in the former and the same date, times, etc. in the latter. What caught my eye was that these two sections look extremely similar to transliterated Ethiopic, so I’m guessing they are in whatever language/dialect is spoken by the Somalis in St. Paul.
Comment by MikeM — 10.05.06 @ 11:38 am
“White” is a race. The rest of those community meetings are based on ethnicities. If Polish, Scottish, Irish, Russian, Jewish (ethnic), or Italian groups request a meeting, I doubt anyone would complain.
Comment by Shade — 10.05.06 @ 11:54 am
Unbelievable. OK, “African American” is deemed a race, for lack of a better term, and they’re getting a meeting. The double standard still exists! A “White Community Conversation” would not be possible! Why, oh, why does this blog seem to attract contrarians just for the sake of being contrary? Just once, I’d like to see…well, nevermind. I have to live in the real world, not a fantasy.
Comment by La Shawn — 10.05.06 @ 12:00 pm
It would be boring without us…You know it would….LOL!!!
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 12:17 pm
>>If Polish, Scottish, Irish, Russian, Jewish (ethnic), or Italian groups request a meeting, I doubt anyone would complain.>>
It’s called the “white, European ethnicity. You know…as in WASP???
Comment by suek — 10.05.06 @ 12:26 pm
LaShawn,
I think there may be an undeclared war on white people going on in this country. Much gets indirectly blamed on us. Hear me out: Racism is believed to be the great evil in our society. Calling someone a racist is equivalent to labeling someone a heretic in medieval times. However, only white people can be accused of being racist. It’s a white-only crime. Therefore, the evil of racism in society is the white person’s fault. Any white person who gets labeled a racist is immediately punished by the various minority groups.
Then there are the cases of overt racism toward white people, such as Mayor Nagin’s famous comment, “New Orleans is gonna be a chocolate city.” Actually, Mayor, it’s gonna be a Mexican city, because they’re not gonna leave when they’re finished rebuilding the city.
Such “community conversations,” as mentioned in the post, are really just a way of recruiting minorities into the PC fold and teaching them of their priviledged status. Thus, they make whites and minorities enemies when they would otherwise get along.
The “community conversation” with the somalis should be interesting. My interaction with the ones in america has not been positive. Are they all the same? No. But they’re all Muslim and therefore prone to treating infidels(whites) as dhimmis.
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.05.06 @ 12:29 pm
It’s called the “white, European ethnicity. You know…as in WASP???
So all white Europeans are White Anglo Saxon Protestants? Where does that leave France and Italy?
Comment by Shade — 10.05.06 @ 12:45 pm
I do think that that many whites feel like there is a backlash against them. There seems to be underlying tension and frustration because even reading some of the comments on this site especially when LSB writes on topics of race, I can just feel the resentment flying off the page as I read them.
But there are a lot of white folks who live in ‘la-la land’ and think that things are equitable in this country for minorities and they aren’t. They aren’t even equitable when you do the right things like educate yourself and stay out of trouble and don’t populate the earth with kids you can’t care for.
White folks vote against their own self interests. I remember watching Ohio carry Bush in the 2004 election and wondering how in the hell could that happen when Bush supports legislation that is anti-union and pro-business and all these unemployed factory workers were lining up out the voting place casting their votes for him. I just didn’t get it.
Lower and middle class whites are no more being served by the vast majority of politicians than I am. Only the elite and rich amongst us benefit. Why don’t white people understand that, I just don’t know.
Minorities do not have all these magical powers. Believe me if I did, I wouldn’t be sitting at this desk in Houston typing this comment. I’d be on the beach somewhere.
How can the average white person feel the backlash against them? Surely it isn’t because of some news articles or some lawsuits that are filed? Come on, does that REALLY affect how the average white person lives. Not really.
This country is becoming cruder and ruder by the day. The officials we elect contribute directly to the public discourse. If anything, WE are to blame for being so complacent.
LSB, I’m sorry this meandered off-topic. I guess I got stuff on my mind today.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 1:06 pm
LaShawn, head on over to badeagle.com and read his recent blogs on Columbus Day protests - yet another example of anti-whitey expression. It’s fantastic stuff and highlights why you are so very correct with this post.
Regards
Buck
Comment by Bucktowndusty — 10.05.06 @ 1:37 pm
Tiffany,
You’re right, things aren’t equitable for minorities in this country. Minorities are more equal than whites, to use an Orwellian idea. They get special scholarships, preference in hiring, lower standards, special interest groups that sue or defame those who make derogatory comments against them, Jesse Jackson, the NAACP, La Raza, and on, and on, and on….Welcome to America, land of cultural Marxism.
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.05.06 @ 1:39 pm
Whatever Walt. Feed that BS to someone else. I ain’t buying it.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 1:55 pm
Hit send too soon. Furthermore Walt dear, when legacy preferences are eliminated, which overwhelmingly favor white elites then talk to me about eliminating scholarships. If you are white and aren’t elite and wealthy, then that SHOULD bother you too. But you are so busy being concerned about the blacks and the latinos and small percentage of scholarships that they MAY obtain. Come on and get real.
I’m NOT who you should be worried about. You need to worried about that RICH white kid. But I’m probably the easily person to rag on.
Oh please.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 1:59 pm
Walt, lets assume that you dont’ think all minorities (Asians, blacks, hispanics, American Indians, Pacific Islanders, etc) are criminals and ingrates or racially inferior…
And have all this special privilage and equal(more so you say) opportunity here in America
Why are still so behind? Why do we make up the majority of the poor, why are we disportionately given jail sentences harsher than whites who have commited the same crime, why do we lack quality medical care compared to whites, why do are we still so behind you?
I’m in total agreement with you Tiffany
I also don’t see the problem. These community meetings are broken up by ethnicities. There is a separate forum for African Americans vs Somalis. In case no one knew this, Somalis are black people. Hispanic isn’t a race. And Hmongs are also not a race, they are a distinct Asian Community.
As we all know these specific groups have specific needs and great disadvantages in their communities that affect their children’s educational needs. If Jews, Italians, the Irish, etc have specific needs then they need to speak up and request a forum.
Comment by Zakia — 10.05.06 @ 2:15 pm
LaShawn,
We know Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be on the scene in a matter of minutes if there was a white community meeting.
I’m sick of the devisiveness. Whatever is good for the African American community should be good for the white community, etc. So why not have one meeting to address everyone’s concerns?
All this sensitivity is so condescending. I don’t need a special separate meeting. If this happened in my community, my husband and I would be up in arms too.
Comment by Cedjan — 10.05.06 @ 2:20 pm
Zakia,
I’m not quite sure how you inferred that I think other ethnicities are criminals, ingrates, racially inferior. I made no such statements or implications. I merely pointed out that they are given preferences. Please react with reason rather than emotion.
Does the term “E Pluribus Unum” mean anything to you?
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.05.06 @ 2:23 pm
Because Cedjan, The African American community on a larger scale have overall issues and problems that the white community may have, but on much lower scale. Especially when it comes to education. What might do the African American community good may have nothing to do white people. Or would you say that isn’t true?
Its the assumption we are all on the same playing level in this country thats white folks feel they have to be in everyone other ethnicities specific conversations.
Comment by Zakia — 10.05.06 @ 2:28 pm
Walt, I was saying I’m assuming you don’t. If you did then there couldn’t be anything further that I would need to say that would matter.
Comment by Zakia — 10.05.06 @ 2:30 pm
Walt. Zakia said “lets assume that you don’t think…”.
And as much as The Right notes how much so called “privileges” actually are a detriment to black Americans, how can they truly be called privileges? Plus, statistically, a small percentage of blacks ever get any benefit from any of these so-called privileges, and few whites are adversely affected. Of course, there will be claims by individual posters of being affected, but then again, comments on a black oriented site about racism experiences will make on think that we are back in the 50s. Then we have studies like this:
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/NY1ToGo/Story/index.jsp?stid=6&aid=51561
It really seems that you are doing what so many accuse blacks of doing, and that is playing the victim role.
Comment by Shade — 10.05.06 @ 2:50 pm
IMO, what … “irritates” many good-willed and clear thinking white Americans is the “bait and switch” that has been utilized (by the Left) regarding race relations in America. My parents were married (and I born) in the heart of the 60s, and hence I was raised to believe in the mantra of Dr. King: We’re all equal, treat everyone the same, race doesn’t matter — we’re all human, etc.
Now, however, we’re told that’s not good enough. Or worse — it’s “dangerous.” “Race matters” we’re told. If you treat everyone the same, this somehow “perpetuates the [white] power structure,” yada yada yada. Black student misbehavior, if corrected, is “stunting their culture” or some other such socio-babble. We’re told that racism is “just as bad” as it was in the 40s and 50s … it’s just “underground” now. And, if you’re not “actively” doing something about this clandestine racism, you’re “part of the problem.”
And on and on.
What do [white] people do who believe what Dr. King preached to be the right thing? (I’ve personally encountered, BTW, most of what I’ve noted above as I’m in the education field.) It’s gotten to the absurd point where the “R” word is almost used against someone if one sticks to the King philosophy.
Comment by Hube — 10.05.06 @ 3:00 pm
A double standard like this is based on one ethnicity being dominant and having the most influence and success. Those other ethnicities meeting are minority ethnicities, less influential ethnicities, and/or less successful ethnicities.
When the dominant, most successful majority group gets together, it tends to look they are doing so to be either funny or to be spiteful. Plus, such gatherings overwhelmingly and historically have been organized by groups that openly express disdain for racial and ethnic minorities. Thus, that is what people would see with such a meeting.
So it’s well beyond the simple “you can do that, why can’t I? It’s unfair.” And this whole “war against whites” notion is Farrakhan level rhetoric.
Comment by Shade — 10.05.06 @ 3:06 pm
I’m just trying to avoid laughing at the flyer’s foreign language text:
“Waa Lagu Martiqaaday!” sounds like the name of an upcoming frat party, while
“Waxay idin la wadaagi doonta yididiiledeeda…” looks like it was created by someone pounding their fist repeatedly on the keyboard!
Comment by Mark — 10.05.06 @ 3:42 pm
#17 “Why are still so behind? Why do we make up the majority of the poor, why are we disportionately given jail sentences harsher than whites who have commited the same crime, why do we lack quality medical care compared to whites, why do are we still so behind you?”
I dunno. Ask the Democrats and the NAACP who exploit you by telling you you’re victims. W.E.B. DuBois is rolling in his grave right now.
#21
Sorry, I read some of the postings too quickly. Hiring preferences in law enforcement, fire fighting, and other jobs are given to minorities.
#22
The study you posted wasn’t actually a study - it was a reporter’s interpretation of the study. Until I read the study, I can’t draw any conclusions from it.
I find it interesting that 6 million Jews were exterminated during WWII. They’ve had pogroms against them in almost every land they’ve settled. They’re attacked in their own country. Yet they’re disproportionatly represented in Nobel Prize winnings. They’re a minority that is actually oppressed, yet they continue to excel without any hiring or admission preferences. How do you explain that?
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.05.06 @ 4:13 pm
I don’t know Walt, You tell me why?
Comment by Zakia — 10.05.06 @ 4:47 pm
I don’t know why the Jews have managed to succeed, so why don’t you tell us, Walt????
Trying to dialogue with you is pointless. I’m done trying.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 4:51 pm
#27
I think it’s because they try to succeed in spite of oppression or circumstances. Also, they generally follow the law, they value education and respect authority, and they try to save their money. Basically, they do the things that are required for anybody to succeed, they’ve just ingrained it into their culture. It’s that whole “Ten Commandments” thing. There’s one sitting next to me. I’ll ask him.
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.05.06 @ 5:09 pm
Ok I lied about responding. So the fact that Jewish folks have white skin had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it has made it easier for them to move from being marginalized as they were in the earlier part of the 20th century to be a fully assimilated part of society now. Combined of course with those other attributes you mentioned in your post of course.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.05.06 @ 5:25 pm
Walt, so then how is our “Privilage” making us equal and/or more equal and privilage than whites when for whatever reason we still can’t compete with you and hold no dominance in any worth while sector than whites, except maybe poverty and uneducation.
Comment by Zakia — 10.05.06 @ 5:28 pm
#17— “I also dont see the problem. These community meetings are broken up by ethnicities. There is a separate forum for African Americans vs Somalis. In case no one knew this, Somalis are black people. Hispanic isnt a race. And Hmongs are also not a race, they are a distinct Asian Community.”
Have I missed where an “African-American” “ethnicity” would somehow not include Somalis? Somalia is in Africa–right there next to Ethiopia. Its true that Minneapolis and St. Paul have large Somali and Hmong populations, but they also have a ton of Norwegians, Germans, Italians, Mexicans, Columbians, Ethiopians, etc. So how does it make sense to have an “African-American” meeting and a Somalian meeting but no other? Are Somalis allowed at the African-American meeting? Are people of other-than-Somlian-African descent permitted at the Somali meeting? Where can the Norwegians go to be heard? If this makes sense, shouldn’t we have a meeting for every person’s ultimate country of origin?
(Well, I guess that would leave us with just ONE meeting wouldn’t it? Perhaps that is the best approach.)
–Great Blog La Shawn–Keep up your good work.
Comment by Katyf — 10.05.06 @ 6:11 pm
Tiffany is on point in #2
Comment by DarkStar — 10.05.06 @ 6:33 pm
#30
They’ve been succeeding in every society they’ve lived in since the Diaspora (AD 70), in spite of pogroms throughout their history after the Diaspora. In fact, their persecution intensified in the 20th century. Their were Russian pogroms in the 1920s, the Holocaust, the pogroms in Arab lands in the 1950s affecting over a million of them, and the various hostilities by the Muslim countries against Israel. They’ve had their greatest success during the century of their greatest persecution since AD 70, when the Romans killed several hundred thousand of them. History has shown that it’s very easy to identify and persecute the Jews in spite of their skin color (which is not always white).
#31 ?
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.05.06 @ 6:35 pm
….”They aren’t even equitable when you do the right things like educate yourself and stay out of trouble and don’t populate the earth with kids you can’t care for.”
Could you be specific? You say that you feel the resentment coming off the page when race is discussed and it does seem that YOUR resentment is palpable. Given that you came from a relatively “privileged” background, how were you oppressed and how things were not equitable for you? Perhaps your answer will make it more understandable when you so casually dismiss the angst that some folks express.
Comment by jerry — 10.05.06 @ 8:20 pm
I also dont see the problem. These community meetings are broken up by ethnicities….
Oh…..so this is ONLY about concerns that ethnic groups have that are specific to their ethnicity ONLY and cannot be shared by the larger whole to improve education overall, with ALL parents cooperating together to make the system better for EVERYONE’s children.
Glad that’s explained…
Comment by jan — 10.05.06 @ 8:44 pm
Funny, if Black parents didn’t do it, it would be asked why they didn’t do it when other parents did.
Comment by DarkStar — 10.05.06 @ 8:55 pm
DS; Are you saying that black parents only achieve legitimacy when they advocate as African Americans and not as concerned parents of students?
Comment by jan — 10.05.06 @ 9:14 pm
La Shawn, I’m glad you exposed this mess. It sickens me every time I see it. Black folks that feel they can decide the racial make-up of a community, but are first to be ticked when White Supremacists march to keep an area “White”.
Segregation may have been outlawed, but stupidity is still legal.
Comment by Independent Conservative — 10.05.06 @ 10:16 pm
I am currently student teaching at a school that is less than 3% white. The 3rd grade class I am in is entirely African-American and Hispanic. There are some great kids in there who conduct themselves appropriately and kids who are smart and do well academically. There are also kids who are carrying A LOT of baggage because of a hard home-life, and that sadly shows itself through student misbehavior and/or apathy, or lack of support at home (like no one at home to help them to become better readers - if you can’t read, you aren’t going to do well in any subject). Just my anecdotal observations, minority poverty has a lot to do with broken and/or dysfunctional homes. Some of the students seem to be overcoming the hardships of difficult home lives, and there are also students who come from intact families, but not all of them are so lucky. One student in particular is a very smart boy, but he is also a very angry child, and I fear that if he doesn’t find a way to deal constructively with that anger, he will not be able to meet his potential. I think this epidemic of broken and dyfunctional homes (regardless of race) has a lot to do with the welfare state that has created a devaluation of traditional family households. Correct that devaluation in society at large, and you will start fixing the problems with minority poverty.
Comment by Miss Ladybug — 10.05.06 @ 11:19 pm
And if the St.Paul Schools decided to have a charter school for the whites to help get their heads straight about being a minority and acting like one, the response would be…………?
Comment by heliotrope — 10.06.06 @ 8:16 am
We have the same thing down here..
The Greek-American association, they hold festivals every year. Russian groups, Italian-American groups, they also hold festivals every year. They are all white groups…there has never been any outcry or anything. They are also powerful lobbies for our local gov’t and have had the same type meetings with our gov’t officials as is posted here.
They dont preach hate of other ethnic groups — key difference.
Seems like this “white-hate” thing is treading down the same “victim” mentality path that conservatives despise so much….eventually white people will be victims and need gov’t programs to make things more equal. Are we headed there?
Interesting…”white liberals” have preached incessantly about black victims and the racial injustice experienced by them and how its so unfair…
Now, “black conservatives” preach incessantly about white victims and the racial injustice they experience….so so unfair to white victims..
Further proves how race can never be solved in this world…its a complicated mess.
Now, was that “black conservatives” remark a jibe at moi? If so, I need to clear up a few misconceptions. Can’t speak for all “black conservatives,” but I’m compelled to point out racial double standards. The hypocrisy is sickening. I’m not interested in portraying anyone as a victim. - Admin
Comment by lukeNC — 10.06.06 @ 8:18 am
I assume that recognizing Christian holidays are out in the St. Paul Schools, but do they “introduce” other “ethnic” holidays as a part of their diversity parade? (It is only fitting that a place named SAINT Paul take action to bury Christianity. Think of the cultural rape that the name of the school system …….. )
Comment by heliotrope — 10.06.06 @ 8:35 am
Are you saying that black parents only achieve legitimacy when they advocate as African Americans and not as concerned parents of students?
No. I’m saying that if African American parents advocate as parents of students, they will be seen as the exception, not the norm.
I’m also saying that Black parents doing something like this should be seen as a positive, instead someone is still going to whine about it.
I’ve noticed this since the early 80s. Because of it, I don’t care how it looks. Blacks need to advocate for their positions. If it means going solo and identifying it as a Black group, so be it. If it means that group joins other groups, so be it.
The Greek-American association, they hold festivals every year. Russian groups, Italian-American groups, they also hold festivals every year. They are all white groups…there has never been any outcry or anything. They are also powerful lobbies for our local gov’t and have had the same type meetings with our gov’t officials as is posted here.
Yep, it’s strong in Baltimore. Itialian, German, Luthiuanian (sp), Polish,…
Can’t speak for all “black conservatives,†but I’m compelled to point out racial double standards. The hypocrisy is sickening. I’m not interested in portraying anyone as a victim. - Admin
Luke points out the same thing I’ve noticed and I have been stating.
I advocate for Black children, am upfront about it, and make no excuses for it. If it helps others, so be it, but that’s not my focus.
I said so to Gov. Ehrlich’s aides and they understood.
Comment by DarkStar — 10.06.06 @ 9:10 am
My question about the “conversations” is, would a white parent be welcomed at any of them? I suppose, technically, they couldn’t be turned away, but how “welcome” would they be?
My second comment is this. What still really irritates me, particularly about the left, and yes ethnic groups such as the NAACP is the dogmatic adherence to the One drop rule. Abolished at the same time as other Jim Crow laws, it seems to be standard dogma now. Black groups DO NOT want anyone who is mixed to admit it. One of the main reasons I do not support such groups, conversations, join the dialog (for the most part) is because, I am multi-racial, and I got tired of hearing, “Well, they (Whites) don’t see anything of themselves in you.” or “One drop of black, makes you black.” Where is the conversation about the multi-racial community?
-Mike
Comment by Mike — 10.06.06 @ 9:23 am
Everyone should advocate for every child. (No child left behind.) But when you have the mess that Miss Ladybug nails in her comment above, advocating with the school board is like spitting in the ocean. Unless they open an orphanage and go at the kids like Pavlov, there will be no certain positive changes.
The problem is in the home…..or lack thereof. How about some meaningful advocacy about changing the poverty of spirit and attitude that overwhelms so many the “homes” of these kids. More government cheese, welfare dollars and trinkets are no match for the Big Brother program, community out reach and down and dirty mentoring work.
Advocacy is wonderful if it has a target and and a plan. Mo money, mo money, mo money and mo government, mo government, mo government is a cheap way to avoid the heavy lifting. At that level, advocacy is just talk and strut.
Comment by heliotrope — 10.06.06 @ 9:25 am
Speaking of biracial children, I happen to have a biracial grandchild whom I love very much. She’s 9 and is in a school that is 3% minority. To the best of my knowledge, she hasn’t experienced any discrimination and she’s leading a normal life. She does what everybody else does; reads the same books, studies the same lessons, takes the same tests, gets invited to birthday parties, plays with all the kids. Her parents are not about to teach her that because of her color she is underprivileged or that she is expected to have difficulty in school, etc. She’s being taught that she’s beautiful, that she’s capable, that she should treat others with respect, that she should study hard, etc.
Expect the best and you’ll get it.
Comment by dianne — 10.06.06 @ 10:14 am
Wado’ (Thank You) LaShawn for this topic and to all those ‘purebreds’ that shared their thoughts.
I can’t add much I’m one of those ‘admixtures’ you know, a mix-blood of a mixed marriage (Am Indian/Irish), among the ‘whites’ I’m a little too honey brown, among the Native I’m a little to white. Go figure.
I remember a program on PBS about genetic/genome the DNA thing - well sicence says we’re all descendents of the Bushmen. Oh - wait there’s that ‘bush’ word.
Some one said, ‘… we don’t change a thing, we just rearrange the mystery’.
Bear
Comment by Bear — 10.06.06 @ 10:46 am
I’m not white. I’m more of a very, very light tan. Can my kids get a special meeting?
Comment by RedBeard — 10.06.06 @ 11:11 am
Right on LaShawn! After reading this post, I was taken back to my feelings after the watching the movie “White Chicks.” I just thought to myself, wow, if two white guys dressed up and acted like two “ghetto” black girls, the black community would be in such an uproar. I don’t get the double standards. I feel as if these double standards give many minorities (especially african american ones) severe entitlement issues.
Comment by edub — 10.06.06 @ 11:30 am
KatyF
So I guess all black peoples are alike and the same right? A black American who is a descendant of the slave trade is culturally and experientially the same as a Muslim Somali immigrant?
And in case you didn’t see the break down,the meetings were based on the make-up of the school at the request of the different communities. So why would the African American community have to sit with the Somalis if they are different and have different needs and problems?
Mike
The problem is historically and until very recently children of a black/white mix were seen as black(because society said you had to be one or the other). These children were often rejected, ignored, or reduced to exotic treats for whites. And then black people were treated to the experience of the lighter the skin, or the more white you had in you, the better you were or could be, but alas they were the ones that embraced this unwanted children while maybe resenting them. And during the civil rights era and I would say into the 80s, your light skin didn’t help you, if you had negroid features and couldn’t pass you still had to sit in the back of the bus or get passed over a for a job. So until recently, a mixed child would be considered black, since society doesn’t like gray areas, and whites would never say “Well he’s or she is one of us” if you at all looked like you weren’t. However because This children weren’t at the extreme of being totally black They were more likely to get ‘preferred’ treatment from Whites because they were less threatening to them. I find this true today.
Multi-racial identity (especially anything involving blackness) is a heavy load and has a lot of bad history involved in it.
A good example of this is the Rwandan issue. Before Belgium took over Rwanda, there was no such thing as Hutu and Tutsi(these terms were created by the Belgium’s). As you know Belgium ruled Rwanda for a bit of time, when they withdrew they placed the preferred Tutsi in charged of the Hutu (Bantu) Africans and supported the Tutsi in the racialist suppression of the Hutus. They believed that they would divide the Rwandan people based on those with lighter skin and Caucasian features or Caucasian heritage (and decided these were the superior of the Rwandans) from the darker Rwandans with more African features (whom were deemed inferior) and essentially pitted them against each other. Of course when they withdrew from Africa and withdrew their support from the Tutsi, the Hutus sought revenge against the years of demoralization, oppression, and dehumanization. And thus the Rwandan Genocide.
Independent Conservative
What in this do you see as black people ‘deciding’ the racial make up of a community? Are you saying that black people (The Somalis and the African Americans) Decided the the Hmong community was going to be Hmong? Your statement makes no sense or is unrelated to this conversation.
Luke and DarkStar
As I’ve always said, If black people decide they need their own forum or advocation for something, giving their negative history in this country and abroad, there is an outcry from whites and black conservatives. There are Jewish American Associations, the Jewish Center for Tolerance, (And shoot, if they can talk about the Holocaust all the time, why can’t we talk about the legacy of slavery, segregation, and Jim crow?) There is the Italian American Association, The Irish American League, and all these other ‘White organizations’and they advocate for the people of their specific communities.
What exactly is the problem with African Americans and different black peoples having their own forums?
I believe this shows that this is an example of racism
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 11:31 am
Just to throw something in.
I was reading a column in the Scotsman on the web.
Now this is a newspaper in Scotland. In the story they use “African American” to identify local Blacks. Doesn’t that say it all?
African American = Black has no other meaning. Has nothing to do with America. It is just PC speak for Black.
The terms change so often, you have to wonder WHY?
Can you send or post the link to that column, Dan? - Admin
Comment by Dan Hamilton — 10.06.06 @ 11:41 am
… “They aren’t even equitable when you do the right things like educate yourself and stay out of trouble and don’t populate the earth with kids you can’t care for.â€
Could you be specific? You say that you feel the resentment coming off the page when race is discussed and it does seem that YOUR resentment is palpable. Given that you came from a relatively “privileged†background, how were you oppressed and how things were not equitable for you? Perhaps your answer will make it more understandable when you so casually dismiss the angst that some folks express.
In response to Jerry’s question from WAY up top of the thread.
I grew up middle class in a two parent home with one parent with 2 master’s degrees and one parent who didn’t finish college but runs his own business. I am far from ‘priviledged’. I’m also far from resentful. I grew up very blessed and fortunate. I haven’t been oppressed and I wasn’t the benefit of minority scholarships at some Ivy League type school because I chose to go to a black college.
I will say that I am realistic. Realistic enough to know what some choose to ignore. We are only 40 plus years out of hard core segregation. 40 years is not a long time in history in the grand scheme of things. Black people have issues as a race that weren’t created in 40 years and it will take longer than that to fix the issues that challenge my people. I wonder why other groups aren’t out on a ‘timeclock’ to get it together.
I don’t understand why white people have ‘angst’ as Jerry puts it. I truly do not. ‘Angst about what??? White people are the standard that all is modeled on.. EVERYTHING. Whatever is acceptable in society is based on Western European white anglo saxon male society. Not that it’s a bad thing. But I fail to see the ‘angst’.
I don’t make excuses for poor behavior by black folks and I don’t condone it. However, minorities get up everyday and walk in the shoes of white folks in order to function in society.
One day I wish white folks would take a walk in the shoes of a black person and realize the path to success and functionality in our world isn’t always a smooth path as you guys would make it. And I’m quite aware that white folks have it rough as well. Sometimes the barriers that you may have are easier to overcome, that’s all.
I’m done with this topic.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 11:48 am
Tiffany said: “However, minorities get up everyday and walk in the shoes of white folks in order to function in society.”
I’m just curious. What do minorities need to do differently than normal in order to “walk in the shoes of white folks?” It sounds like it’s uncomfortable, whatever it is. Or is this like black kids teasing other black kids who do well in school by accusing them of “acting white?”
Comment by RedBeard — 10.06.06 @ 12:19 pm
>>I don’t understand why white people have ‘angst’ as Jerry puts it. I truly do not. ‘Angst about what??? White people are the standard that all is modeled on.. EVERYTHING. Whatever is acceptable in society is based on Western European white anglo saxon male society. Not that it’s a bad thing. But I fail to see the ‘angst’.>>
I think you touch on an important issue. You’re right - white people (actually, I think it’s more correctly the Western European-anglo-saxon male society culture) _are_ the standard. There are those who go about adopting it as theirs - regardless of their color/culture - and there are those who resent it as a basic standard. Those who resent it want a different standard where _they_ are the superior individuals they can’t be in the white standard. Hence we hear the young blacks in school calling those who succeed as “uncle toms” and trying to be white. They somehow feel that being black means _not_ succeeding, and then resent it when they don’t have the benies that sucess brings. Whites, on the other hand, see the success of music and culture taken from the black ghettos not as an expression of black culture, but as a glorification of the worst of the dregs of society, and this is being held up as something to strive for. In other words, many times we whites feel that that goal of many blacks is to drag society down rather than wanting to be helped up. Change the measure of success and you change the composition of the individuals who are “top dog”. Sort of a “country mouse, city mouse” situation, but a different cultural orientation.
I agree with you that we aren’t very far from the civil rights movement, but to be honest, it seems to me that the attitude of many well recognized blacks (usually the ones who are successful in sports or entertainment) is one that wouldn’t have been tolerated in their own community before the civil right movement. I also think that there is no way that whites can help blacks up the ladder of success - it has to come from within the black community. I see a change within the last few years - blacks speaking out and calling for change, La Shawn being among them - and I’m hopeful that in time it’ll be about “how good are you” instead of “what color are you”, but you’re right - it does take time…measured in generations, not years.
For most of us, it’s easier to blame failure on some extraneous factor (it’s ’cause I’m black, white, fat, skinny…whatever) instead of personal inability or lack of effort, so probably some resentment will always be there, but the more we can do to remove the probability of prejudice being a reality, the better. You’re also never going to change the fact that most people are more comfortable among those they identify with. We just need to help people identify with a broader range of other color people!
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 12:28 pm
Redbeard
She explained herself
White (Western) ideals are dominant, they are also owhat is the standard that is deemed right. And we have had to adopt those standards to function in any place where there is (white) Western dominance. There are very few places where White people are forced to conform to the standards of another race or ethnicity of people in order to function. Mostly they’ve come in as a minority, tell the majority they are doing it the wrong way and their way is the right way and then change the society of those people to their standards forcing those people to adopt those standards to function.
So in America, A white dominated country, in order for any minority to function they had to (and still do) adopt the standards of that have been set. In other discussions we call this assimilation. Here in America we have a history of ‘If its white, its right, and everyone else is wrong’ so to function here black people had to try their best to function culturally same as white people to even try to get anywhere, when it is very clear African Americans have a different culture. This included dress, speech patterns, pitch, and tone, likes and dislikes, associates and affiliations and mannerisms. Sometimes this included mimicking any racism whites expressed or agreeing with it.
A memorable example of this to me was an outside interview with Malcom X, who was very vocal about his displeasure with the way white people had and were oppressing and dehumanizing black people. And they went to another black man on the street and asked him what he thought and he basically said that he thinks Malcom is wrong and white people have treated black people just fine. Which was obviously not the true, especially in the 60s
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 1:00 pm
Zakia, in regards to the question you posed to me in #20, this is specifically what I believe is good for the African American community that is also good for the white community or any community: (these are not necessarily in order of importance)
1. Married two parent household
2. Mom and Dad get to know the children’s teachers/administrators and get involved in school/volunteer/etc.
3. Mom and Dad help with and monitor homework everyday.
4. Mom and Dad set good example by turning off the T.V. and read to the children and help them if they’re having problems.
5. Mom and Dad instill morals and values based on a faith tradition (mine is Christianity).
6. Mom and Dad stress the importance of education and set high expectations for the children.
7. Mom and Dad hold up examples of people who have excelled in life because they took education seriously and took advantage of the opportunity to get an education.
8. Absolutely no video games allowed in the home, and no TV in the children’s bedrooms.
9. Mom and Dad speak proper English and demand the children do the same.
10. Feed the children a proper breakfast, not one laced with sugar, to help the children concentrate in school.
There is nothing culturally specific about my prescription for dealing with African American children as it pertains to getting an education. I refuse to teach my children that they are different and need something special that’s culturally sensitive in their educational experience. They need to work hard like any white child to succeed.
Unfortunately, many among us teach these kids that unless they have some unearned advantage that they can’t succeed. I don’t buy that and I think that is a disservice to the kids who are more than capable of taking advantage of educational opportunities.
Comment by Cedjan — 10.06.06 @ 1:54 pm
Cedjan - But the white community in america doesn’t have a societal, psychological, and financial legacy of dehumanization and disopportunity that black americans have had. So our problems are different and while its always nice that outsiders think “why can’t you be like us” or “if we can do it you can do it. ” or “We are all the same and have the same situations” Its not the truth.
So you can’t simply say that #1. is good for both A and B, when A might have mutiple layered problem with conforming to #1.
Its like telling a woman who has been raped repeatidly that she shouldn’t be afraid of men because you aren’t.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 2:09 pm
Zakia, in all sincerity, if I’m wrong, please correct me. But you do seem to be using the same reasoning as those kids I mentioned earlier, taunting blacks for “acting white” when they get ahead in life under their own power.
Do you think that Stevie Ray Vaughn or Eric Clapton should be criticized for “acting black?” Or did they simply see a great style of music, decided to emulate it, and became acclaimed blues musicians through hard work and personal initiative?
Comment by RedBeard — 10.06.06 @ 2:16 pm
Cedjan -
I don’t think anyone on this board would dispute you on the items you listed being keys to success for any person, regardless or race. I do think however, you are remiss if you teach your children all those things you speak off and then don’t also arm them with the reality that there people for whatever reason will not like you or try to derail your path SIMPLY because you don’t look like them and for THOSE individuals you have to be wary of and learn to work around in order to continue to reach your goals.
That’s reality.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 2:20 pm
If you have a few moments, please read the article linked below, and see if it offers anything that might be relevant. There are two factors that I found relevant: a) the blacks are primarily from Jamaica (since my son dated a black woman from there, and I was impressed with her and her freedom from the “chip on the shoulder” attitude) and b) the self-starter attitude mentioned being a factor. (that is, those with this attitude got up and left Jamaica to make a future for themselves)
http://tinyurl.com/zq27a
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 2:30 pm
I have put in my request for a “White Community Conversation.” No response received from the school district.
What I think is so outrageous about this thing is that it’s fine if the Superintendent wants to have specific meetings targeting certain groups — with translators available. That makes sense. But those meetings should be included in a series of meetings for EVERYONE, they shouldn’t be the ONLY meetings! So have a meeting on the west end of the city, and the east end of the city, and one in the afternoon, and one in the evening. Have a meeting for Spanish-speaking parents, Hmong-speaking parents, Somali-speaking parents. Fine. But also have some just plain generic meetings. By trying to be so inclusive, they have been exclusive.
Comment by David Downing — 10.06.06 @ 2:32 pm
SueK -
I understand where you are going with the comparisons to black Caribbean immigrants….and though I don’t dispute their successes and attitudes, there are subtleties between US born and Caribbean blacks culturally, both good and bad. All whites aren’t the same and neither are all blacks.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 2:37 pm
Mike said:
Where is the conversation about the multi-racial community?
Mike, it is estimated that 90% of “African Americans” have white ancestry and that the average “African American” is 20-25% white. This doesn’t include those who are have Indian, Asian, etc. ancestry. Thus, the vast majority of us are multi-racial.
To actually have exclusively white organizations and meetings, would create a double standard. You see, black American organizations are geared toward Americans with any percentage of black ancestry. If a white organization was geared toward Americans with any percentage of white ancestry, then 90% of “African Americans” would be eligible. Of course, we know that such white organizations would be geared toward “pure” whites, which creates a double standard since black organizations are not geared solely toward “pure” blacks.
Comment by Shade — 10.06.06 @ 2:49 pm
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060206fa_fact
While we are on the this subject…..
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 2:49 pm
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1478452006
From a paper in Scotland.
“Mohammed said he had never met him before the incident. He agreed that nothing would have happened if Kriss and his friend had been Chinese, African-American or Asian. He said they were targeted because they were white. ”
All Blacks are American? Aren’t they?
Comment by Dan Hamilton — 10.06.06 @ 3:20 pm
I say again, the term African American is a term that overwhelmingly denotes the descendants of American slaves. The biggest exceptions are maybe those black immigrants or children of those immigrants who assimilate into the subculture of the descendants of black slaves in America. Trying to play the semantics game is meaningless. If we say that any African immigrant in the U.S. is an African American, then we might as well say that everyone who lives in North, South, and Central America should be called an American, but we reserve that term for U.S citizens.
The thing is this. The term “African American” is a flawed term because at first view, it tends to denote an immigrant or one descended from recent immigrants. But whatever the flaw, the term generally relates to descendants of American black slaves. I have been to message boards whereas blacks from Africa, Latin America, and The Caribbean distinguish traditional black Americans as AAs (African Americans).
On another point, there are numerous references on this topic to how other groups are doing better than black Americans despite the ordeals of those groups. Well if there is a tendency toward failure that seems specifically linked to traditional black Americans, wouldn’t that be more reason for black Americans to meet with each other or form organizations to try and combat such a tendency? Folks are quick to distinguish black Americans as criminals, unintelligent, irresponsible, etc., but let us group together to at least attempt to address these problems and we are called racists. How are discussions with white people going to solve problems with blacks if whites are not the cause?
Comment by Shade — 10.06.06 @ 3:23 pm
“To actually have exclusively white organizations and meetings, would create a double standard. You see, black American organizations are geared toward Americans with any percentage of black ancestry. If a white organization was geared toward Americans with any percentage of white ancestry, then 90% of “African Americans†would be eligible. Of course, we know that such white organizations would be geared toward “pure†whites, which creates a double standard since black organizations are not geared solely toward “pure†blacks. ”
YOU SEE. If it is White is is RACIST and KKK. No possibility of it being anything else. No possibility that it would be open to all.
The racism exists in the people who believe the quote above far more then in White people. Anything they CAN see as racist IS racist to them.
Comment by Dan Hamilton — 10.06.06 @ 3:26 pm
RedBeard your distinction of the “Acting White” thing is when young kids or mentally impoverished black people tease a person for being educated and speaking english or rather not adopting negative cultural norms attributed to African Americans. This is a self esteem issue that is another psychological negative black Americans have to deal with. Because Success and Propriety had been ingrained us be an attribute to whites based how we were treated, anyone doing such is seen as trying to be such and rejected being black.
That particular issue is different than what I’m talking about.
Historically white people have managed to create enviroments, even in places they are not indigenous to, where their cultural norms and ideals HAVE to be the standard because it is what is deemed correct and everyone elses way of doing things is wrong. When they have then dominated and controlled the enviroment anyone that is to compete or be allowed to compete or in some sense even receive an ounce of acknowledgement as a human being has had to adopt their standard as set.
One good example of this is black men in the past , when able, procurring a white female partner for the sole purposes of upping their status in a white dominated sector. While making a point to reject black women and black people in general. Of course that isn’t the issue with all such parings. (but the end result of that practice was the kneejerk uproar of black women WHENEVER a black man is seen marrying or partnering with a white woman)
And sometimes this was the ultimate symbolization that they ‘Arrived’ and have been ‘Accepted ‘by white society, and they have been granted access to something that was forbidden.
Another example of speech patterns. In general black people have had a different way of speaking, educated or not. There is GENERALLY some truth to stereotype of sounding black(I’m not talking about speaking ebonics, thats poor english or slang english). I don’t know if you have ever experienced this, I have and I believe many other black have have. When we get around white people that we are not comfortable with or around find ourself facing a white person that might be deemed intimidating we adopt speech tones, pitch, and patterns that we believe mimick white speech patterns.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 3:36 pm
#53 Tiffany in my book you are privileged compared to how I grew up. You have been given much. Why don’t you use it positively? You aren’t a victim. You’re a wannabe victim. You can blame racism for every thing that is wrong but it isn’t going to advance your cause one tiny bit. There’s all kind of discrimination..Latino, White, Black, Asian, American Indian, Fat, Ugly, Disabled … next???
Prepare to stand in line Sister or do something “CONSTRUCTIVE” about it.
Comment by dianne — 10.06.06 @ 3:37 pm
Diane
When did Tiffany say she was a victim?
Dan
I think we all know what African American is and I believe that are you using the same tactic I was describing above
If the Scotsman paper says “African American” to referred to blacks in Scotland it must be the right way to use and doesn’t have anything to do with what African American actually has been known to mean. Did you ever think they may be misusing the term? Or that it has been adopted there to have a different meaning than it does here?
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 3:45 pm
Dianne -
First of all, you don’t know me or what I do. You have really pissed me off now.
I am an active member of the LARGEST African American sorority in this country and my particular focus is working with young black women. When you go into the community and specially work with young underpriviledged black kids LIKE I DO NEARLY EVERY WEEKEND, then you can tell me what I NEED TO BE DOING.
Furthermore, you did not see anywhere in my posts where I said I was a victim. Quote it if you did. I dare you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wannabe my black ass. I have never asked for a handout and have worked just as hard as you.
My point in this whole discussion is one YOU have quite obviously missed.
And furthermore, I am not your sister. My name is Tiffany and if you can’t address me as such, don’t bother to address me. We ain’t cool like that.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 3:47 pm
YOU SEE. If it is White is is RACIST and KKK.
If I had made a statement comparable to this, I would have been called silly and immature. This is what one can call a “knee jerk reaction”. I made no reference to a meeting of “pure whites” as being racist. That’s your selective perception. I stated quite plainly that what most whites, as well as blacks, view as “white” is a person who either 100% white, or near enough whereas they appear 100% white. So the appearance of a person who is 70% black and 30% white at a meeting designated as exclusively for whites would probably baffle the other participants.
Lets look at racial separatist organizations. Malcolm X admittedly had a white grandfather. Farrakhan has white ancestry. If an Aryan Nations member admitted having anything other than 100% white ancestry, he or she would get the boot.
Comment by Shade — 10.06.06 @ 3:54 pm
Zakia -
The more technical term I have heard is called code-shifting. I read a book about a year ago called about what are explaining above Shifting: The Double Lives of Black Women in Americaby Kumea Shorter-Gooden and Charisse Jones.
Here is a brief synopsis: USA Today correspondent Jones and psychologist Shorter-Gooden initiated the African American Women’s Voices Project and recorded the experiences of 333 survey respondents and 71 interviewees. The results are here compiled to form an urgent narrative, doggedly chasing the hypothesis of the book’s title: that the twin bigotries of race and gender force black women to constantly “shift” between identities in order to accommodate the expectations thrust upon them by black men and white America. “From one moment to the next, they change their outward behavior, attitude, or tone, shifting `white,’ then shifting `Black’ again, shifting `corporate,’ shifting `cool.’ ” The authors argue that the contemporary survival tactic of shifting is rooted in slavery, but history does not figure strongly, with the bulk of the book composed of quoted testimonies from the research subjects, tracking their shifting experiences in the realms of communication, mental health, beauty standards, romance, child-rearing and religion. Compelling and educational tribulations are piled on, but the authors rarely pause to reflect on the contradictions or solutions the stories present. Yet the book makes a real contribution, as men and women of all races will find it an illuminating if sometimes shocking record of life between two “isms.”
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 3:57 pm
LSB - My apologies for getting crunk up in here about this particular topic. If I am getting out of line in your space, please let me know.
For those of you who don’t know what crunk it, look it up in Google. It’s a slang expression.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 3:59 pm
Did you ever think they may be misusing the term?
I think that it is quite reasonable to conclude that they are misusing the term. Wikipedia deals with the term quite well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_american
The term African American is sometimes problematic because of its imprecise cultural and geographic meaning. The term as originally applied refers to only those descended from a small number of colonial indentured servants and the estimated 500,000 Africans taken to British North America (later becoming the United States) as slaves (of approximately 10 - 12 million Africans taken to the Western Hemisphere in general). In slightly broader usage, the term can include West Indian and Afro-Latino immigrants whose African ancestors also survived the Middle Passage or recent African immigrants/children of immigrants with American citizenship, but these groups tend to use the ethnic terms Latino or Hispanic, or identify themselves by their countries of origin (i.e., as Nigerian, Dominican or Jamaican instead of African American).
Comment by Shade — 10.06.06 @ 4:03 pm
>>…there are subtleties between US born and Caribbean blacks culturally, both good and bad. All whites aren’t the same and neither are all blacks.>>
No disagreement here…but doesn’t that negate the presumption that problems are due to color alone?
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 4:37 pm
Zakia, when my ancestors arrived here, they spoke German, French, and a goofy form of English understandable only by others from Ireland.
They had to adapt to the prevailing culture here in order to prosper. This they did willingly, because they wanted to be a part of the American success story.
Comment by RedBeard — 10.06.06 @ 4:41 pm
SueK -
No disagreement from me about your statement. I just happen to think it’s more nuanced than others seem to think it is.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 4:49 pm
#70 dianne. If Tiffany was white, and making the exact same arguments that Tiffany is making, would you have described her as you did in your post, or do you just tend to see individual black persons who you don’t know as fitting such a description?
Comment by Shade — 10.06.06 @ 4:57 pm
Redbeard
While this is true and conforming in general is not bad thing. It becomes a problem when the society you are trying to conform in has declared you 1 step up from being an animal and has made a habit of applying law and institutions that deliberately try and minimize your ability to function on any level. It is also hard to conform when you don’t look anything like who the dominant or controlling peoples are. Someone who is Irish but maybe had blonde hair and blue eyes may not be at first seen to be Irish unless they declare their name or maybe open their mouth and have an accent. Black people look like black people and that tended to off the back put them at a greater disadvantage no matter their ideals, education level, or if their name was Johnathan. That is why the color of their skin, content of their character issue was so prevelant.
Trust me when I say that there are issues in black americans that are internally different in applying solutions to. So its frustrating to us when people, especially those who have come historically from dominance and privelage say “If we do it you can do it, everyone should be able to do it, our way”
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 5:01 pm
Suek-
I think that is the point of this whole discussion. People here are in an uproar because people of a certain color had a forum and those of another color didn’t. They have then lumped African Americans and Somalians together ( or say they should be in the same forum because they are black)
They seem to not understand 1. that just because people are black that they all have had the same experiences applied to them or have the same cultures or cultural defects. And 2. That whites people have their own separate cultures which have their own distinct problems and issues.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 5:08 pm
Zakia, I’m not clear on this at all. Are you saying that because blacks were historically abused that they now, today, have reasons not to follow the path that leads to the greatest reward? Or are you saying that blacks cannot do so?
Seems to me that holding to either idea is a slap in the face to every successful black member of society.
Comment by RedBeard — 10.06.06 @ 5:18 pm
I just wanted to go back and re-visit the original topic of LSB’s post which was a riff of Downing’s World. Going back to the source article, it clearly states that the meetings that the Superintendent is having came about based on REQUESTS from a community group.
All are free and open to the public.
So again, why are the Caucasians in a uproar???
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 5:29 pm
This is what I said:
“Trust me when I say that there are issues in black Americans that are internally different in applying solutions to.”
And thats what I meant
So your comparison to Irish Americans isn’t relevant . We are not Irish Americans and don’t have the same historical baggage as Irish Americans.
Again people, The civil rights movement was only 40 some odd years ago, and if anything the 80s was an extremely hard time for black Americans also. So I would say we have about 600 years of bad history in this country that HAS impacted greatly our ability to function. Its not going to be resolved completely in 20 or 40 years when we have generational dysfunctional to deal with.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 5:39 pm
Re: #84. The topic is not what you call the “source article,” it is the flyer that was sent to St. Paul households. The item that appeared in the paper AFTER the flyer went out is about damage control and spin. The statements in there about “all are free and open to the public” and referring to requests from community groups I am interpreting as an attempt to cover up for the mistakes made by the flyer. It’s interesting that the newspaper article made it clear that American Indians hadn’t been slighted, but still makes no notice of white people being left out. It’s almost comical. I have made a request of Mr. Rodrguez that there be a “White Community Meeting” as well, but he has not responded to me. I’d like to point out again that this is a brand new superintendent in town, and she really hasn’t met with anybody until now. So to set up all these meetings as being for such specific groups, and having NO MEETINGS for anyone not within those groups (primarily white people, but also any non-Hmong Asian group or non-Somali African group) is ridiculous. If these four “targeted” meetings were in addition to “general public” meetings, then no problem. But as the meetings are advertised, there is NO chance for me, a white guy who pays taxes and sends his kids to the St. Paul schools, to converse with the Super.
Comment by David Downing — 10.06.06 @ 6:08 pm
>>People here are in an uproar because people of a certain color had a forum and those of another color didn’t.>>
That’s not correct. What we’re commenting on is the “affirmative action” attitude - that is, that having meetings for certain ethnic groups is a “good” thing, but to have the same meetings for a “white” group would cause an uproar. Sort of like the hotel that refused to book a meeting for a group named “National Association for the Advancement of White People”, but had no problem booking a meeting for the NAACP. Years ago, the same hotel might not have booked for the NAACP, but since the civil rights movement, would fear a suit if they didn’t. So why doesn’t this apply to the NAAWP? It’s the double standard that’s the problem, not the meetings themselves. You know…like they can have women only gyms, but not men only. Double standard.
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 6:08 pm
SueK -
To be quite honest if if the NAAWP,wants to book a hotel by all means the hotel should book them and take their money. I prefer my racists out in the open. I like to know what I’m dealing with…:)
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 6:14 pm
So David, what are you scared of? Go to the MLK Center (is it still off Dale St.) and talk to the Superintendent yourself. I think they’ll let you in.
Or are you just blowing smoke?
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 10.06.06 @ 6:18 pm
Tiffany said; “I don’t understand why white people have ‘angst’. I truly do not. ‘Angst about what??? White people are the standard that all is modeled on.. EVERYTHING.
Maybe it is the angst of 23,872,000 white people below the poverty line in the US. Perhaps we should tell them how darn LUCKY they are!
Maybe it is the angst of the bottom quartile of whites who will never achieve at significant levels despite the fact that “White people are the standard that all is modeled on”…whatever the heck that means. Perhaps we should tell them how darn LUCKY they are!
In truth, few people have had things just dropped in their laps and even those who have achieved at high levels generally work extraordinarily hard to get there. Most would be ecstatic to be raised in a family in which one parent had two masters degrees and the other was a business owner.
Comment by jan — 10.06.06 @ 6:36 pm
So David call them up and tell them how you feel. You should. I don’t see a problem, but obviously you do.
Suek - Why where do white people need to advance to? They dominant the world. Did you know the NAAWP are an extremely racist, white supremecist and white segregation entity with strong ties to the KKK, the White power movement, and White nationalism and was founded by David Duke?
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 6:42 pm
#66 The perps were Muslim. Shocking!
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.06.06 @ 6:44 pm
Jan
Tiffany pointed out the poverty and classism issues.
But in comparison, There are more blacks, hispanics, and Asian, and other ethnic groups living in complete poverty based on their population numbers, compared to whites and their population numbers in America.
And lets not forget that white women receive special scholarship and quotas, and privilages in the job and educational sector.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 6:47 pm
>>I prefer my racists out in the open.>>
So you agree that the NAACP is a racist organization?
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 6:51 pm
Just fyi
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Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 6:54 pm
>>Why where do white people need to advance to? They dominant the world.>>
So _all_ white people are dominant over _all_ other color people everywhere? I don’t think so.
>>Did you know the NAAWP are an extremely racist, white supremecist and white segregation entity with strong ties to the KKK, the White power movement, and White nationalism and was founded by David Duke?>>
I know absolutely nothing about the NAAWP. What I _do_ know is that if an organization can be discriminated against because of any particular characteristic, then we don’t have free speech or freedom of association. If the hotel refused _both_ organizations, I’m ok with it. If they accept one - either one - then they should accept the other. The constitution protects both free speech and freedom of association. If it only protects those we agree with, then it isn’t much of a protection.
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 6:57 pm
Zakia;
The fact that there are other groups which experience a higher proportion of poverty would not negate the angst of an individual experiencing poverty or suffering. Relating to pain and suffering as real on the human level, whether or not it is perceived as the earned right to suffer as a collective is the essence of true empathy.
Frankly, I’m not sure what your response has to do with my point.
Comment by jan — 10.06.06 @ 7:01 pm
>>Just fyi…>>
Associations of ethnic groups snipped.
What is your point? Were these organizations founded by any particular governmental body? No one is objecting to associations that are of any particular group.
The topic is about meetings being held by a governmental body, and directed at specific racial groups, but not including _all_ racial groups. If the specific groups _asked_ for a meeting, that might be appropriate. There is no indication that any group asked for separate meetings - so why have them?
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 7:02 pm
Zakia;
Do you truly see NO difference in organizations formed to celebrate aspects of cultural heritage and black only dorms, black only graduations, black colleges, black businesses, black night clubs, black parent organizations, the NAACP, and on and on and on and on….
Can you lend no imagination to the scale of the scenario? The exclusionary aspects?
The “White Irish American Football Officials’ Association”…wouldn’t be a problem with you????? (right, and I’ve got a bridge to sell)
Comment by jan — 10.06.06 @ 7:23 pm
The NAACP wasn’t founded by any kind of governmental group. I’m just pointing out the White organizations do exist and aren’t seen as racist. I’m sorry that black people dont’ know what COUNTRY they originate from so they have to say African American and incompass an entire continent.
And in case anyone didn’t know there was a townhall meeting with the superintendant, all inclusive, on August 21st
And the paper announcement happened way before the meetings were scheduled. So it is apparent that there is no issue when them trying to ‘clean up’ anything. It particularly pointed out the the meetings were at the request of the different ethnic groups and the ALL of the public were allowed to join in.
(Posted on Tue, Oct. 03, 2006
Carstarphen plans public meetings
New St. Paul Schools Superintendent Meria Carstarphen has scheduled community meetings to share her goals and vision with the public.
Four meetings -remain-; one targeted at American Indians was held in late September. All are free and open to the public, and people are encouraged to attend to share their ideas, concerns and suggestions with Carstarphen.
Here is the schedule:
• African-American Community Conversation, 5 to 7 p.m. Monday, Hallie Q. Brown/MLK Community Center, 270 N. Kent St.
• Somali Community Conversation, 6 to 8:30 p.m. Oct. 11, Highwood Hills Elementary, 2188 Londin Lane.
• Latino Community Conversation, 5 to 7 p.m. Oct. 16, Our Lady of Guadalupe Fellowship Hall, 401 Concord St.
• Hmong Community Conversation; 5 to 7 p.m. Oct. 30, Arlington High School, 1495 Rice St.
Translation services will be available at the Somali, Latino and Hmong meetings.
The meetings came about because of requests from community groups, said Dan Rodriguez, senior ombudsman for the district, and additional requests are welcome.
— Pioneer Press)
I’m not sure how additional request for a “White community” Meeting would be taken since there divisions of a “white” ethnic community. I’m sure a request for “I want a white community meeting because black people are allowed to have one” Won’t be taken seriously. Maybe if it was said a “Jewish” or ” Italian” community meeting.
To remind people again, Hmongs, Somalis, African Americans, and Latinos are not in themselves a race or color.
They are ethnic communities. Latinos are white, mestizo, black, white and mestizo mixed, black admixtures amongst that, and indian. United by a language
African Americans consist mainly of black peoples descendant from the American Slave trade.
Somalis are African immigrants and have nothing in common with African Americans culturally besides maybe their skin color
Hmongs are a particular ethnicity of Asians
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 7:32 pm
Suek - It is rejected in the same way the FOI and Nation of Islam and Black Isrealites are not allowed to hold their functions at certain places because of their anti-white, anti-semetic hate rhetoric.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 7:34 pm
#93
I’m going to take a wild stab here and guess that you and Tiffany have spent a most of your college time on the humanities side of your college campuses. Since your a glass half-empty gal, just think how your life would be if you lived in the Sudan right now. Or a Jew everywhere else in the world but here. Now that’s real oppression!
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.06.06 @ 7:40 pm
Damn I did a long message that answered both Jan and Suek’s questions. I don’t know why It didn’t post.
But 1. the article announcing the meeting was way before the meetings and stated specifically that other request were welcomed, the different communities (probably their representatives) requested the meetings and they were ALL open to the general public.
2. There was a town hall meeting with the SUperintened open to all on August 21st
3. African Americans, Somalis, Hmongs, and especially Latinos are not races of people. They are ethnic groups within a race of people. African Americans and Somalis have nothing in common except for being black. Latinos make up every race in existance, and hmongs are a sub group of Asians.
4. There are different ethnic communites amongst white people. a “White” Community meeting requestion probably wouldn’t be taken seriously or seen as a sign of hostility. A Jewish, Italian, German, Slavic request probably would get more attention.
5. The NAACP is not a government organization.
Jan
I’m not sure why White Irish is necessary, unless to provoke some type of racilist emotion. I have already assumed Irish means white as most people would. If they need to assert that it means white by adding white before Irish then so what?
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 7:44 pm
Walt
Don’t assume anything about me
I went to school for Graphic Design
LOL
And I don’t need nor want to live in the Sudan or anywhere else. I’m an American and I particularly like it here.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 7:46 pm
“There are very few places where White people are forced to conform to the standards of another race or ethnicity of people in order to function.”
I think, like my grandparents and great grandparents, 90% of “white” people in the past had to learn English as a second language and conform to the Anglo-English standards when they came to America.
I think a lot of this first and second-generation assimilation of Americans occurred between 1945 and 1965, as the children of immigrants grew up in the suburbs and went to college.
Comment by UNK — 10.06.06 @ 8:01 pm
Zakia;
Of course it isn’t necessary to put “white Irish” and once again I find myself wondering if you actually read what I wrote. My last line was a somewhat tongue in cheek reference to an exclusion by race and I chose the Irish reference because then the exclusionary aspect would be more obvious…or so I thought.
Comment by jan — 10.06.06 @ 8:14 pm
So I reread your post Jan
To address your question we have to see what Black actually means in this context. Remember we were considered black and still are because we lived in a dynamic of Black vs White in America. A derivative of Black has been, Afro-American, African American, Colored Peoples, or Coloured, the NAACP does not have black in it. It has Colored People which when established was to mean Black Americans or particularly Descendants of America’s black slave trade. So Black Business means black american, african american, afro-american, colored american(not used much now), business or parent organization. It doesn’t mean black as in (black race). And thes terms weren’t applied to exclude they were applied because black american people have been excluded so in order to do certain things they had to create their own subset of it.
I have never heard of Black Only dorms policies, nor Black Only nightclubs policies. There may be black clubs where they are hostile to white people or white people don’t feel comfortable or the music is geared towards a more black audience. But I’ve never heard of such a thing being official policy. Not saying it doesn’t exist.
Whites however have historically made policy of Whites Only upfront and out right.
Historical Black Colleges were established as a result of blacks not being allowed into white institutions. See above.
Plus they don’t have an policy to exclude whites. Many whites attend historically black colleges, amongst other races. Few, if any now, remain all black. Probably more of a black majority.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 8:35 pm
We’re shooting for another record number of comments here.
Comment by Walt Schulte — 10.06.06 @ 8:35 pm
It’s not so unusual Zakia, Jan is always having problems being understood, so she purports.
Comment by tafaraji — 10.06.06 @ 8:38 pm
UNK
She is saying there are few places where white people had to conform to the standards of another RACE.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 8:45 pm
>>Damn I did a long message that answered both Jan and Suek’s questions. I don’t know why It didn’t post.>>
I’ve had this problem - I suspect it has to do with a “time out” thing with the blog. What I do is copy before I “post it” - just in case - and then can paste if it disappears. It usually only happens with a long response, which of course is the one you definitely don’t want to do over!
Comment by suek — 10.06.06 @ 8:45 pm
Walt - I think this discussion could go on forever *L* Does Lashawn set a limit?
Suek, It actually showed up, but not immediately. Wierd, but the cut and paste thing is something I should remember.
Comment by Zakia — 10.06.06 @ 8:47 pm
I almost did not include black colleges in that list because I was virtually certain that you would seize upon one aspect…the fact that whites can go there, rather than really think about whether there is any exclusivity involved or the wider implications of the fuller statement.
Zakia said; “And these terms weren’t applied to exclude they were applied because black american people have been excluded so in order to do certain things they had to create their own subset of it.”
And how does this apply today?
Thank you for the semantics lesson…”So Black Business means black american, african american, afro-american, colored american(not used much now), business or parent organization. It doesn’t mean black as in (black race).”
I read this three times and I’m still scratching my head.
Given that you have never heard of ‘black dorms” I googled it to see if the information was so obscure. It isn’t.
Comment by jan — 10.06.06 @ 9:04 pm
“She is saying there are few places where white people had to conform to the standards of another RACE. ”
I suppose if you self define “ethnicity” as only three groups white, black and Asian, your argument would hold.
But in the first half of the 1900, when most blacks have been here in America since the early 1800s, and most whites were immigrants or their childern - I think the argument would work the other way, that blacks certainly knew more English and more Anglo culture than most white immigrants.
Comment by UNK — 10.06.06 @ 9:15 pm
Before this post ends, I apologize to Tiffany for calling her a “victim” or “wannabe victim”. I should not have referred to her in this manner. I should have referred to her statement (quoted below) which is what I was thinking of when I wrote my post:
“But there are a lot of white folks who live in ‘la-la land’ and think that things are equitable in this country for minorities and they aren’t. They aren’t even equitable when you do the right things like educate yourself and stay out of trouble and don’t populate the earth with kids you can’t care for.”
In my humble opinion, it is not helping anyone, of any race, to tell them that no matter how well they live their life (as above), things still won’t be equitable for them.
Once