Update: In response to critics who question why I blog about race so frequently, I wrote a post titled Race Blogger.
Do You Hate Black People? is also responsive.
Don’t like it? Millions of other bloggers out there…
Later…My post on the battle for “preferred minority” status was reprinted at CNSNEWS.com.
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If you have an SAT score of 1240 and a grade-point average of 3.2, your chances of being admitted to the University of Michigan undergraduate school are 9 out of 10.
If you’re black.
White or Asian? One in 10.
The Center for Equal Opportunity (CEO) has the goods on the University of Michigan (U-M), just in time for the November 7 election.
On that day, Michigan voters get to decide whether their state government will continue using skin color preferences to hire and admit blacks and hispanics, or use fair and consistent standards for everyone, without regard for the color of their skin, an idea that was the heart and soul of this nation’s so-called Civil Rights struggle.
If passed, the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative will put a serious damper on U-M’s skin game.
The folks at CEO, unlike an organization like the NAACP, for example, advocate equal rights for all. Somewhere along the civil rights way, signals were crossed and the message was muddled. Being judged on what you do was somehow misinterpreted to mean being judged based on your membership in a preferred (for now) minority group.
CEO found out the extent of those membership privileges. Check out these incredible numbers (bold emphasis added):
It is noteworthy that race and ethnicity are apparently more heavily weighted in undergraduate admissions now than in the system declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 2003.
In the most recent year for which data were available (2005), the median black admittee’s SAT score was 1160, versus 1260 for Hispanics, 1350 for whites, and 1400 for Asians. High-school GPAs were 3.4 for the median black, 3.6 for Hispanics, 3.8 for Asians, and 3.9 for whites.
In the four years analyzed, UM rejected over 8,000 Hispanics, Asians, and whites who had higher SAT or ACT scores and GPAs than the median black admittee—including nearly 2700 students in 2005 alone.
The black-to-white odds ratio for 2005 was 70 to 1 among students taking the SAT, and 63 to 1 for students taking the ACT. (To put this in perspective, the odds ratio for nonsmokers versus smokers dying from lung cancer is only 14 to 1.)
In terms of probability of admissions in 2005, black and Hispanic students with a 1240 SAT and a 3.2 high school GPA, for instance, had a 9 out of 10 chance of admissions, while whites and Asians in this group had only a 1 out of 10 chance.
These disparities are reflected in subsequent academic performance at the University of Michigan (UM), where blacks and Hispanics earn lower grades, and are less likely to be in the honors program and more likely to be on academic probation than whites and Asians.
Before Gratz. v. Bollinger, U-M used to assign 20 points, no questions asked, to “underrepresented minorities” seeking admission. Too blatant, said the court. Find a trickier, more subtle way to use skin color preferences, it asserted. Make skin a “plus” factor only, it advised.
Well, I don’t know how subtle it is, but whatever U-M is doing now certainly is tricky. The school still discriminates against whites and Asians and in favor of lower-performing blacks and hispanics, but instead of documenting the “plus” factor (by adding 20 points, for example), the school’s method is unwritten. Based on the numbers and admission rates uncovered by the CEO, U-M still is relying heavily on race to admit blacks and hispanics.
What’s wrong with that, you ask? Plenty. The double-edged sword of authority to discriminate in favor of one group can be used to discriminate against the same group if doing so suits political purposes.
How do skin color preferences harm blacks, you ask? Clegg says, and I concur:
Their classmates, professors, and future employers, clients and patients will all assume that they aren’t as smart as those who didn’t receive preferences. Moreover, the studies show that, as undergraduates, they will get lower grades and will be less likely to be in the honors program and more likely to be on academic probation; and, as medical students, they will not do as well on the licensing exam they take after two years.
Related posts:
- “Holistic Review” Just Another Disguise for Race Preferences
- California’s “Disadvantaged” Business Advantage in Jeopardy
- The End of Skin Color-Based Scholarships?
Sources:
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The politics of public education will never end. As a state school, the University of Michigan is stuck with the flood of poorly educated public school applicants.
The key to resolving this mess is to crack down on learning and literacy at the K-12 levels. Why should any university have remedial courses to help students catch up with the mainstream? But they do have those courses and a lot of other games to move their chosen “victims” on to a diploma.
>>The key to resolving this mess is to crack down on learning and literacy at the K-12 levels.>>
That’s one of the goals of the NCLB program. Whether it succeeds or not will probably depend on the ability of the NTA to work around it. Parents need to be informed of their rights and schools need to be held accountable – in the courts if necessary.
Personally, if I were a white in Michigan and was rejected (and my SATs and grades were within the acceptable levels) I’d start working towards a class action suit – although to be honest, I’m not sure a young person wouldn’t be better off these days with the skills of a plumber or an electrician….!
This post states perfectly why racial preferences perpetuate (rather than eliminate) racial discrimination:
“Their classmates, professors, and future employers, clients and patients will all assume that they aren’t as smart as those who didn’t receive preferences.”
Exactly. A racial preference is an insult to the group it claims to help.
Racial preferences instead give the benefactor a tool to keep the “beneficiary” dependent (i.e., “vote for me, or I’ll stop ‘helping’ you, and you can’t do it on your own”).
You know I LOVE this topic LB…LOL!!
I have a question for the people who are against skin color preferences for admissions:
In your world (one where skin color preferences are eliminated) what do you think would happen? Would all the elite schools like Michigan, harvard and the like become lily white and Asian? I’m just curious to know what folks thoughts are?
Tiffany, my thought is that I don’t care what the racial makeup of any given school might be. All white, all black, 50/50, 90/10, it just doesn’t matter as long as the makeup of the student body is based upon merit. To try to predetermine some racial ratio without regard for the level of preparation of the students is a form of outcome-based education, and it is both cruel and self-destructive.
The key, as Heliotrope indicated, is to prepare ALL kids, regardless of race, to be educationally competitive.
Background: Here is Georgia we have the “HOPE Scholarship” which provides college tuition to any Georgia HS student graduating w/ a 3.0 or greater. Students going to a state school will have the entire bill taken care of w/ HOPE.
Unfortunately, many of the HOPE dollars are going to pay for remedial classes to prepare students for real college-level courses. That is to say that many of the B-students coming out of our high schools are only marginally literate.
A proposal was raised to limit HOPE scholarship dollars to college-level classes, thereby excluding the remedial classes. The idea would be to put pressure of the high schools to actually teach reading and writing insteadx of passing along marginal students to the state colleges to teach. Parents would demand more of the high schools when they begin getting bills to teach Johhny the three Rs at the local state school.
I am a 58 year old white male. I believe affirmative action affected me once in getting a job. Otherwise, it has not had a negative impact in my life.
Being interested in politics it is an issue I have studied profusely in the 90’s. I compare it to illegal immigration in this way: the majority of the public are against it; nevertheless, it continues to be done.
There have been state initiatives and court decisions to eliminate it. Unfortunately, the will of the people has been thwarted by those in power to circumvent them. In California, the UC system is in the process of in initiating an application procedure that weighs “whole life experience” or something like this in addition to grades and test scores. In other words, race will be a determinant factor.
I believe the proponents of preferential policies for American blacks should work for legislation that will give them a protective status which will include the special treatment that they desire. If that fails, then they should adjust themselves to the equal treatment that is accorded to them in the U.S. Constitution.
John
I have long known that U of M lowers the standards for black students, since that is what they told me nearly 10 years ago when I was in high school. I had a GPA of 3.7 and I had assumed that this wouldn’t be good enough, because my classmates thought you needed a 4.0 to even have your application reviewed. U of M had gutted my major before my senior year of high school, so I decided not to bother with applying. So, I let the application deadline pass and went on with my life.
What do you know, a month or so later U of M sends me a letter stating that they wanted to keep up or increase their minority enrollment, so pretty please apply—I would only need a 2.8! I guess I was supposed to feel warm thoughts about that, but I was insulted. I could see if they had said they would take me with my actual GPA, provided I passed the SAT with a certain score, or had good letters of recommendation—I would expect that kind of accommodation for any other student, regardless of race. But I hadn’t had a GPA that low since my last semester of seventh grade, when I quit coasting. I have never needed anyone to lower standards for me. I’m a nerdy type and I was used to excelling even in my advanced classes. Come to think of it, I’d gone to a mostly white school and no one, not even my teachers, had ever made me think I needed standards lowered; if anything, one of them tried to steer me away from a class that she thought was too low-powered for me. I had to explain to her that I had a strategy of taking one blow-off class every semester so I don’t get burned out on senioritis. But none of that mattered to U of M because I was black, and their apparent default assumption was that they couldn’t expect much of black students.
I have never respected U of M from the very day I received that letter. My mother bragged to her coworkers that I had turned them down, but I couldn’t be proud that they would want me, since I knew the school’s interest in me was completely unrelated to any accomplishment of mine. I was also assuming that if a person with a 2.8 in high school could get into U of M and succeed, then not only was the school overpriced, it didn’t deserve the prestige it had. In the end, I was mostly just contemptuous of a school that expected so little of me for the sole reason that I am black.
My experience finally helped me see what another classmate of mine had been talking about during our high school sociology class, when she had argued against affirmative action. She was an Indian American (South Asian Indian) and she said that in her experience and that of other Indian Americans, affirmative action for them meant being passed up by under-qualified black people. I had gone to elementary school with her, so I did not believe she was being racist. She had never displayed such behavior in my experience with her, I just wondered if what she said was true, or just her perception. That letter told me that it was not a perception.
So I started paying more attention to the affirmative action debate, especially with regards to U of M. I no longer doubted the South and East Asians who insisted they had to do even better than a 4.0 to get accepted because no one was impressed by them getting that GPA. I decided it was logical for them to be opposed to affirmative action, and I had no hard feelings about it.
I started noticing that any academic programs aimed at black students, not just U of M’s, started off with the assumption of low expectations. I also cannot say I was surprised when I read the study that noted that black students who get into U of M based on lowered standards do not make it to graduation. U of M has gone out of its way to make sure that people who point out that black students who go to there got in only by dumbed-down standards can not be called racist, because U of M has made sure that those who say that have the truth on their side, and that’s a damn shame [that it’s true].
So, for myself, if it turned out that using a merit-based standard excluded some or most (I doubt it would be all) black students from schools like U of M, I would not consider that racist at all. I am indifferent to exclusions based on qualifications, but what would be sure to outrage me is if the K-12 schools continued to get away with letting black kids fail to make the cut. Really, I don’t’ care if kids are failing the math test if they don’t know math, or can’t write a composition if they don’t know how to read. All is right in the world if that’s the case. What’s wrong is when the kids are going through school innumerate and illiterate and no one does anything about it. That’s what offends me.
If merit-based admissions resulted in fewer blacks at a college, then if I were a parent I would be taking a good long look at what schools educated the students who made it in, and asking hard questions of the schools that didn’t—especially if my kids were at the latter school. If anything, the meritorious exclusion could be a Godsend, a much needed catalyst to finally force schools to take a look at their malpractices, but that’s assuming I’m not being naïve about whether or not they care.
I appreciate the responses. I think that what would happen is that a lot of minority kids who would not make the cut on merit would end up going to lower tier schools or in my biased opinion because I am a HBCU graduate, back to HBCUs. (That’s a whole another discussion altogether). I also think that you would see a lot of black student athletes not be able to make the cut either and that would make a lot of major college sports programs VERY VERY upset.
Or they could just attend The Ohio State University and have a better school AND a better football team!
Go Bucks!
(Sorry La Shawn – sometimes parochialism overwhelms me!)
#4 Tiffany in Houston asks what schools like Harvard would look like if affirmative action were dropped.
Lots of very bright dark skinned Indians, Africans, and Americans go to Harvard with no need for the affirmative action “fudge factor.”
Having a dark skin is not related to brain power.
All over the United States, blacks are rising through the middle class, home schooling their kids, ignoring the “race chatter” and producing great kids with high morals, a strong work ethic and a determination to succeed.
Why would anyone want to stigmatize these kids a race-based handicap?
The Supremes who ruled in favor of Michigan’s skin color admittance policy weren’t happy with such a policy. They ruled in its favor anyway because they felt that a diverse student body trumpted non-racial discrimination. Their decision was still wrong.
I like diversity, but I don’t worship at its alter. The idea that it’s OK to oppress someone based on their skin color if it advances the cause of diversity is perverse.
The reality is that regardless of whether an African-American gets in on merit or otherwise, you will still have a group of individuals who will believe that person is inferior to whites. It is an unfortunate and sad reality. It is a reality etched into the soul of this country. After years of slavery and segregation, the challenge arose of how to overcome this inherit belief shared by many in the country about blacks. The answer was integration and affirmative action. Now those two political achievements are being indirectly challenged by those who question the legitimacy of having a diversified campus and workforce.
Those who argue for a merit-based admissions policy in institutions of higher learning are being somewhat disingenuous. Most often, the merit-based argument focuses on race, but seldom does it focus on legacy. It is undisputed that many individuals who are descendants of former graduates get preferential treatment in the admissions process. Without knowing the numbers, I suspect there are quite a few legacy admissions each year to the leading universities. Therefore, if the merit-based argument is to carry any weight it must include legacy admissions.
Additionally, the merit-based argument must call for the abolishment of purely athletic admissions. Many scholarship athletes at premier universities are not admitted based on scholarly merit. Instead, they are admitted because of their athletic achievement.
Why are legacy and athletic admissions generally excluded from the merit-based admissions argument? In my opinion, it is because of the money generated from both. The institutions of higher learning are businesses and need money to operate. Yes, they get money from tuition. But many schools get a tremendous influx of cash from wealthy and distinguished alumni and/or sports. This extra revenue allows those institutions to hire better teachers, create better programs, and build better facilities, which all impact the scholastic status of those universities. Therefore, it begs the question, if certain universities lost alumni donations because legacies were not guaranteed admission and lost major revenue because their sporting teams were noncompetitive, would individuals still decry the admissions policies at those universities? Probably not.
My point is that the argument should be logically consistent. If the use of race in the admissions process is wrong, then the use of every criteria other than scholarly merit is also wrong.
I am a proponent for eliminating all preferences in the admissions process. My reasons are probably different than most. Most political debates in this country are generally false debates–meaning most don’t address real problems. If you eliminate the false debates, it forces people to tackle serious issues. For example, the real issue regarding how to improve the educational system for all children regardless of race.
Many talk about ending race preferences, but what would America really look like if that happened? What would be the natural consequences flowing from that action? Therefore, if there is a debate about ending preferences, it should really include a discussion about the likely effects of that action, whether America could live with those effects, and about real solutions designed to forever eliminate the need for preferences.
I mention legacies and other admission criteria and why they are different from race here:
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2006/10/04/hispanic-v-blacks-the-battle-for-preferred-minority-status/ – Admin
Maybe for undergraduate but for graduate school it is NOT like that at all. I’m a black woman, applied to ph.d programs in economics. My stats: 4.0 undergraduate (triple major economics, mathematics, physics), GRE: 780 math, Publications, own my own business, community service. I applied to Harvard, MIT, University of Michigan, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Duke, Brown, NYU, Boston University, Boston College,and Vanderbilt. I got accepted into 3 of these schools, two without funding and one with funding (BU, Vanderbilt without funding) BC full funding. Not bragging at all just letting you know that affirmative action is dead in graduate school, at least in my experience. They make it like cake to get into undergraduate but they kill you when you want to advance. I think the response is actually quite anti-affirmative action in graduate phd programs. I think race can hinder you. Think about it, they pay you to study (in most disciplines) but they want someone who can teach and carry out research, they feel that most blacks can’t do that because they have been given a free ride in their undergraduate programs. In my program, there are two blacks in the whole 6 cohorts, that stats are like 80% of black drop out if they are admitted. These graduate programs feel as if black students are a waste of investment.
By the way and off topic. Lashawn, you looked HOT on The Vent. I did not see it but just saw your postings. Congratulations. You made a sista proud!!!!
Funny thing is, there are complaints in Cali about institutions becoming more and more Asian.
In MD, there are complaints about Ehrlich changing state scholarships to favor need vs merit.
Their classmates, professors, and future employers, clients and patients will all assume that they aren’t as smart as those who didn’t receive preferences.
But those who believe in ‘g’ believe that regardless.
Great column as always. You could be black, white or striped like a zebra as long as you keep hitting the nail on the head you’ll be listened to.
Some of your commentators asked, “Does racism exist”. My experience tells me “Ayup”. So does sexism, ageism, prejudice against tall people, short people, fat people, bald people, people in the military, people who never served in the military, etc. Some is a lot worse than others, as a former career military member I was never hung from a tree and torched for whistling at a girl. But there was at least one girl I dated whose parents “always warned me not to go out with a military man”. Noted.
Prejudice is always there in some form or another. The best we can do is consciously work to minimize it and keep on keeping on.
And stop whining!
La Shawn
I have personal experience with affirmative action.
One young Black man was pampered with special exams, took 6 years to get an MD degree, and was fired when he couldn’t pass his intermediate licensing exam.
I KNOW my son was superior to this man, but he was rejected from medical school 3 times.
And local City contracts, that have “Minority Owned Company” provisions, mandate hiring “minorities” from out of State and elsewhere when enough “Minority Owned Companies” connot be found locally. So jobs are outsourced on the altar of affirmative action.
As long as you have racism, affirmative action will be a considered means of balancing the scales.
There are far, far fewer “victims” of affirmative action than there are victims of racism.
If you stop racism, you’ll stop affirmative action.
If you want to end affirmative action, what policies/actions do you recommend government take to continue to fight racism and repair the damage done to victims of racism?
If racism and affirmative action disappeared from government today, would American culture/society still have serious problems tomorrow?
Regarding the Michigan vote to ban affirmative action, nearly all religious, political, business and civic organizations in Michigan along with both the democratic and republican gubernatorial candidate oppose amending the state constitution to prohibit the govt. from considering race and gender when deciding who gets admitted to public colleges and who gets government jobs.
I highly support “outreach” to increase the minority applicant pool. The mechanism should not be one of lowering standards, but rather should focus upon 1. getting minority applicants to be competitive through enhanced education opportunities and 2. widening the search
Simply lowering standards is the easy way out.
AND, lowering standards also lets those who are responsible for teaching children get off the hook for the lousy job that they do. If Michigan schools are so inadequate at preparing a competitive well educated minority student, the failure to educate should be dealt with when kids are very young…not at the college level and the job level.
“no state shall… deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
What a concept!
Why, there ought to be an amendment saying just that!
Or wait! I’m confused!
Diversity is much more important than equality. Jefferson said as much: “All men are created diverse.” And, Jefferson said: “life, liberty and the pursuit of diversity.”
An equal opportunity is so old fashioned. We need to handicap applicants based on…..on…..on….their skin color!
Leon said: “There are far, far fewer “victims†of affirmative action than there are victims of racism.”
Depends upon your definition of “victim.”
Government has done just about everything statutorily possible about racism, but still is being asked to do more. But what? Affirmative action and racial preferences do not cure racism, and never will. Neither does handing out diplomas based upon a desired outcome rather than achievement.
I teach at a university where a few years ago I had a bright, friendly, very outgoing student in one of my classes. As much as I liked her, it was easy to see that she wasn’t preparing for class as she should and was barely keeping herself at a C level of performance. I called her aside and pointed out the folly of not doing one’s best (she had ambitions to go to law school) given the competitive aspect to law school admission. She proceeded to point out that she was, in fact, two privileged minorities, a female and African American, she was not worried about competing with other excellent candidates. I felt, at the end of our conversation, that I had little to teach her, she had already learned too much from others. Regardless of the intentions of the Affirmative Action supporters, they have harmed this individual, although her damage is self-inflicted.
>>If Michigan schools are so inadequate at preparing a competitive well educated minority student, the failure to educate should be dealt with when kids are very young…not at the college level and the job level.>>
As has been said before – the responsibility of educating children does not rest _solely_ on the schools, unless you’re advocating turning them over to the schools 24/7. Parents have a role, as do the students themselves. You can cop out by calling the schools inadequate – and maybe they are – but if the problem rests solely with the schools, then whites who attend those schools should also be deficient. If they are not, then it isn’t strictly a school problem.
Antonio sez:
“The reality is that regardless of whether an African-American gets in on merit or otherwise, you will still have a group of individuals who will believe that person is inferior to whites. ”
True.
But in the absence of affirmitive action, that group will be a minority of unknown size.
In the presence of affirmitive action, that group will be *everybody*.
Applause to edub. What an accomplishment!!!
I have to agree with SueK. Student teaching at a low-SES, majority-minority school, I’m in a 3rd grade class with only Hispanic and African-American students. There are some very smart kids in there who will be able to achieve whatever it is they set their minds to, but there are also kids who can hardly read, and definitely aren’t reading on grade level.
A lot of these kids have very unstable home lives. At least one little girl has a father in prison, and her mother seems to be very critical, at least at times, but this girl is a good student, and is succeeding in spite of the difficult hand she has been dealt in life.
With 18 kids in the room, and 2 adults (myself and my cooperating teacher), there still isn’t enough time to give all the kids who need extra help the amount of help they truly need. A lot of these kids go home to little or no adult supervision, play video games all the time instead of doing school work, and don’t have anyone at home that can help them with schoolwork they don’t understand.
Don’t expect schools to do it all. There are some kids who are just naturally going to excel academically, regardless of the kind of home they come from. However, there are also those kids who aren’t being read to, who come to school hungry, who have parents who aren’t engaged with helping their children with school, and even the most dedicated of teachers won’t be able to fix it for these kinds of kids. And, “these kinds of kids” come from every race/ethnicity. At the school I am in, they just happen to be Hispanic and African-American.
As easy as it is to blame the schools that these kids are coming from, the real culprit here is their cultural background. The values that most white parents and white culture pass down to white children are not the same the ones passed down by black parents and black culture to black children. The same is true of hispanics. Mexico is, by any definition, a mess. The reasons that it is a mess stem directly from the flaws inherent in the culture of the Mexican people. When they come here they don’t leave their cultural baggage at the door. They are not nearly as culturally handicapped as some strains of black culture, but many are at a disadvantage. East asians on the other hand generally bring with them cultural attributes which help them rather than hurt them, hence the reason why asians are singular among minorities in that standards are not lowered on their behalf. You don’t hear leftist hucksters lamenting the supposed oppression and disenfranchisement of americans whose ancestors came from nations such as Korea, or China, not to mention Japan. Why? Because americans with these backgrounds don’t seem to have any trouble achieving their goals. Asians are a thorn in the side of those whose livelihood is founded upon preaching the dogma of eternal vicitmization.
I have no doubt that many here, even a few conservatives, will read what I just wrote and feel the urge to call me a racist. Stop and think for a minute. Do you really believe that my words are motivated by bigotry? Is there no room for honest criticism where issues of race are concerned? This is not even an issue of race in the first place, but of culture. Different cultures are, surprise surprise, different. The values and norms that some instill create behaviors that result in better outcomes than those instilled by other cultures. Hence the reason why black americans of caribbean extraction fare better than other blacks. It isn’t because “whitey” decided to treat one group of black people whose grandparents came from Jamaica differently from another group whose grandparents came from Georgia. Such things are not known to anyone, and wouldn’t matter if they were. It all comes down to what the children are taught at home, and what values they pick up from their peers. If the culture that child comes from is not conducive to success, then that child is unlikely to succeed. The school they go to is a secondary issue at best.
Racism exists of course, but so does every other form of bigotry and discrimination. Sometimes people are going to dislike you for reasons that have nothing to do with who you are. Sometimes these people will be in a position to impede you and make your life more difficult. Sometimes you will be unfairly discriminated against, and this applies to people of both sexes and colors, creeds and religions. Discrimination can hold someone back, but what it cannot do is determine their worth as a person. The correct answer to racism and other forms of discrimination is not to whine and call for preferential treatment. The correct answer is to be a better person, to be better than those who would deny you, to hold yourself to a higher standard than they are capable of achieving. A person who succeeds in doing this cannot be done-in by the cruelty of those around them. Its like they say, you can’t keep a good man down.
I’m sure I’ll still be called a racist, but then that is to be expected, even if it is disappointing. As an intellectually honest person, I often assume that others are motivated by a similar pursuit of the truth. But I’m old enough now to know that very few on the left are motivated by anything so noble. To them I am a racist, a term so worn and abused that it has lost all meaning beyond its usefullness as an incantation against the specter of honest discussion.
Lee
No 14 — “…affirmative action is dead in graduate school, at least in my experience. They make it like cake to get into undergraduate but they kill you when you want to advance.”
First, congratulations on such a great undergrad record and on getting admitted to the PhD programs!
But — why should affirmative action be alive in graduate school at all? (And why should it be “like cake” to get into undergraduate just because you’re black? But that’s another topic…)
Shouldn’t we be on a level playing field by grad school? Don’t you think your grades, test scores, recommendations and interviews should be enough? Why should you get an extra edge for your race and sex? By grad school, you should be competing strictly on your merits.
Why are you so sure your race worked against you? PhD programs are highly competitive. You did well to get into three of them! It’s not always about race, you know. Sometimes, it’s just about — you.
I think the point edub was trying to make it that because AA makes it so much easier for certain minorities to get into undergraduate programs, many of these minorities are ill-prepared to compete for those coveted graduate student slots. Also, because graduate school decision-makers have preconceived notions about these minority students (because of what they have seen/heard on their campus), that will be in the back of their mind if they see someone’s race/ethnicity on a grad school application. It’s all about making generalizations.
That’s kinda how I read it. If I’m wrong, edub, please correct me.
Wouldn’t it be nice if colleges and universities couldn’t ask applicants about their race or sex?
From what I understand, in California the bureaucrats within the UC system have worked out ways to continue engaging in racial discrimination in direct violation of state law. But imagine if they didn’t have any clue what color or sex an applicant was? Obviously if someone is named Barbara they’re going to know that this person is female, but what about a name like Taylor? The explosion of non-traditional names among members of Gen-Y means that much of the time you’re not going to know what their sex is if all you hear is a name. A person’s race is even more difficult to determine from their name. For every black dude named “Tyrone” there are dozens with names that aren’t associated with being black. The only favored group whose ethnicity is easy to determine from their name is hispanics. If admissions departments do discriminate in favor of people with spanish surnames, it will be easy to detect.
If you want to end discrimination in university admissions, denying the racist bureaucracy access to information about race is a very good place to start. Of course replacing that bureaucracy with new blood would be even better.
Lee
I have a friend from India whose name is quite “western.” Her daughter got accepted to Berkeley (very deservedly), but when the child walked in and they discovered that she was “Asian” the admittance folks were shocked and vocalized much annoyance, as if they had somehow been “tricked.”
Now here’s the deal…the child was born and raised in the Middle East (not Asia), had Indian parents who were American citizens, attended high school in American boarding schools, was a gifted pianist and talented in other ways, was brilliant, spoke a number of languages, had traveled the world, scored extremely high on her SATs, and had a 4.0+…
If it was diversity that Berkeley truly wanted, she absolutely exemplified that quality. So, what do schools mean when they say that they want diversity?
#30, I must agreee, thanks for the insight!
>>So, what do schools mean when they say that they want diversity?>>
Diversity = blacks, hispanics, and these days, muslims.
Diversity = victims of some sort. Underdogs – even if it’s their own fault.
Diversity means being able to claim that you are able to raise up the “great unwashed” of the world.
Jesus said: “The poor you will always have with you.” The liberals want to prove Him wrong.
if they want diversity for people that have been economically disadvantaged, maybe they could give preference by economic status, ie. letting in more low income people who may have lower qualifications because they lacked resources. There is an argument there, although you could argue that it is easier to get a higher GPA in a low income school. However, to want diversity in skin color is to say that somehow skin color makes a person different and more diverse. This is just the opposite of what the civil rights movement was all about. If that is true about skin color, then what about shoe size, eye color, or weight.
#29 Lee, you’re right. [Deleted by Admin. Read the comment policy.]
“Mexico is, by any definition, a mess. The reasons that it is a mess stem directly from the flaws inherent in the culture of the Mexican people.”
What does that mean? Inherent flaws?
Mexicans don’t believe in abortion. Mexico has one of the lowest divorce rates in the world; a lot lower than that of the U.S. Are these inherent flaws?
Mexico has the 13th largest GDP. Mexico has a large middle class. The standard of living in Mexico is one of the highest in Latin America. Are these inherent flaws?
Mexico is a very complex culture with strong family values. In Mexico, family units are more close knit than in the U.S. Are these inherent flaws?
Yes, there is political upheaval in Mexico. Yes, there is a lot of poverty in Mexico. Perhaps these are the inherent flaws?
Maybe you can edify me by elucidating on the inherent flaws.
Are you critizing Hispanic culture because of the poverty? Because they come to America in droves seeking economic wealth? Maybe you don’t like the fact that they are 90% Catholic? I don’t know what your motivation is, but if you’re a seeker of truth, surf the net on Mexico. Surf here and here or wherever, then come back and clarify your statements.
Just because America is the rich superpower of the world doesn’t mean that America is the most righteous. Except that since America is on top, it gets to “define” what is righteous.
“Hence the reason why black americans of caribbean extraction fare better than other blacks. It isn’t because “whitey†decided to treat one group of black people whose grandparents came from Jamaica differently from another group whose grandparents came from Georgia.”
Well, the blacks in the carribean came from the same African cultures as the blacks in the U.S. So cultural differences today stem from what happened “yesterday” after blacks first arrived in the Americas.
There are many experts who posit that the different treatment by “whitey” of slaves in the carribean and South America and slaves in North America led to cultural differences in our time. Personally, I think it’s much more complex than that, but racist behavior then and now is a factor to be dealt with along with a myriad of other factors.
If you are a seeker of truth who wants to engage in an honest, intellectual discussion, go to your local library and check out Inhuman Bondage by Pulitzer Prize winning author David Brion Davis. You may or may not find support for your theories.
“I’m sure I’ll still be called a racist, but then that is to be expected, even if it is disappointing. As an intellectually honest person, I often assume that others are motivated by a similar pursuit of the truth. But I’m old enough now to know that very few on the left are motivated by anything so noble.”
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
(I didn’t notice if you’re male or female, I just like that quote.)
a)>>Mexico has the 13th largest GDP. Mexico has a large middle class. The standard of living in Mexico is one of the highest in Latin America. Are these inherent flaws?
snip
b)Are you critizing Hispanic culture because of the poverty? Because they come to America in droves seeking economic wealth?>>
These statements sure seem contradictory to me.
Personally, I criticize “the Hispanic culture” because they ignore our laws, and seem not to want to become “Americans”, but would rather be Mexicans living in the USA in any way it suits them, while using every means possible to avail themselves of our largesse.
If they want to become citizens, they need to learn to speak the language, and obey _our_ laws. We should adopt _their_ laws letter for letter on the legal restrictions on non-citizens. If they assimilate, they’re welcome, but if they just want to inhabit this country without paying the “dues” one pays as a citizen, then let them go back where they came from.
Yes, suek,those statements do seem contradictory, don’t they? If Mexico is so great, why are so many sneaking into the U.S. seeking free health services, welfare and other expressions of our largess? Maybe that’s an inherent flaw. I don’t know the answer.
I did read where the middle and upper class Mexicans resent the Mexicans living in the U.S. (legally or illegally) because they think they are giving Mexicans a bad name. How much of our perception of Mexicans/Hispanics come only from what we see and learn from the illegal immigrants? Are they an accurate reflection of Mexicans culture? What do you think?
None of that matters, though. This is not about middle class Mexicans living in Mexico. It’s about our United States of America. If you come here through proper immigration procedures, learn our language, adopt our cultural mores, obey our laws, then you can avail yourself of all the opportunities here. Otherwise, go back where you came from.
I mean, here in the metropolitan Detroit (Michigan) area home of the largest concentration of Arab speaking people in the U.S., home to large concentrations of Hispanics, Chaldeans, Polish, Russians and who knows who else, there are many places where you can go and hear little or no english! It’s annoying. You’d think that regular, english speaking Americans were on a slippery slope to extinction.
>>Are they an accurate reflection of Mexicans culture? What do you think?>>
Of course they are…the problem, of course, is that each is a reflection of just one small smidgeon of Mexican culture, and since we assume that if you’re Mexican, you want to live there, and since they are moving here, the reflection is somewhat distorted. They have a problem if they have decided to come here, but are not planning to become citizens – they’re neither Mexican nor American. Neither fish nor fowl, as they say. They have no real loyalty except to themselves and to heck with everyone else. In that respect, they reflect some of the worst aspects of _any_ culture. They need to make a choice and live with it. Either stay in Mexico and fight to make their country better, or stay here and become American. It’s hard to learn English – I can appreciate someone who doesn’t do it well, but who is trying – but to march in the streets demanding the rights of citizenship along with demands that their “rights” be “respected” … well, I can only say “look to your own country and how they treat _their_ illegal immigrants”.
Racial preferences are illegal, immoral and just plain wrong. The only people who want this are liberals and race hustlers. Good discussion going on at Say Anything about Opra’s visit to a HBC.
Back in the early 60s, students studied and learned. After 1969, most Colleges and Universities did not even give out F’s or D’s. I was there, going back summers for my Master’s degree. It was pitiful and a disgrace.
On the discussion about Mexican culture:
Earlier this year, during all the big illegal immigration rallies, I was talking to my dad, who teaches history at a local high school. He was explaining to me about the cultural class system that developed in the Spanish colonies back in the day, and how that is still reflected in those countries today. Spaniards brought slaves to the New World, and there were natives when the Spanish arrived. The Spaniards (white Europeans) were the top dogs in the status heirarchy. Then, the I think the slaves were followed by the natives. To complicate matters, there became mixed-race members of the society. You could move down the social ladder, but you could never move up. The people you see sneaking into the US aren’t the pure-blood descendants of the white European Spaniards – they are the descendants of the natives, slaves, and mixed-blood Mestizo – those that are still at the bottom on the social heirarchy today. Until Mexico fixes that problem, we are going to continue to see large numbers of Mexican crossing into the US illegally.
Time to end EBONICS and RACIAL PREFRENCES and end this poppycock nonsense.
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