Update III: Haggard cops to buying drugs and receiving a “massage,” but not sex. OK.
Later…You’re welcome, Bob. 
Update II: Remember this, public bloggers: YOU CAN’T PLEASE EVERYONE, so don’t even try. So far I’ve read on a Christian blog that I’m “bad-mouthing” Haggard (the blogger apparently ignored the second half of the post), while non-Christians say I’m being “easy” on Haggard because he’s a Republican.
Take my advice: blog how you want and say what you need to say. Tell the truth, and watch unconstructive and flat-out misguided criticism bounce off you.
Later…Christians, focusing on the fact that the homosexual prostitute failed the lie detector test is missing the point. As I said and linked earlier, Haggard admitted to some “indiscretions. The “sex worker” may be lying, but the point is that Haggard opened himself up to this mess, whatever the “indiscretions” may be. I, for one, don’t need to know the nasty details.
Read David “Jolly Blogger” Wayne’s post about the Haggard mess.
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Update: John Kerry redux? Fasten your seatbelts!
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A reader asked me to blog about former head of the National Association of Evangelicals, pastor, and outspoken opponent of homosexual “marriage” Ted Haggard, accused of paying a homosexual whore for sex. I wasn’t going to touch it, but as a Christian, I need to say something.
Here’s a newsflash for unbelievers: Christians can be perverts, too!
[Update and clarification: Yes, sex outside of marriage is a perversion of what God intended, too. We all fall short of God's standards, so in a sense, we're all perverts. It's a perverted world! Anyway, if you don't feel like discussing this, check out my GodBlogCon wrap-up post.]
At first Haggard denied the allegations, saying “I’ve never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I’m steady with my wife. I’m faithful to my wife.” Then he admitted to “some of the indiscretions claimed by Mike Jones, but not all of them.”
So which part is he denying? Is he copping to the sex but not the drug use? He popped a pill or two but didn’t have sex? It really doesn’t matter. Haggard’s finished as a “Christian leader,” anyway.
Hypocrisy is mightier than the sword. When you preach/teach/nag against something and people find out you’re doing the thing you preach/teach/nag against, you are a hypocrite who deserves ridicule, especially if you’re high profile.
Having said all that, I have to say this: No Christian should be surprised that Haggard may have given in to his perverted thoughts and turned them into perverted actions. It’s a temptation we all face (temptation in general, people, not necessarily the same-sex kind).
On a personal note, I’ve never been tempted to start drinking again or return to the depraved lifestyle I once led, but the possibility of falling back into those sins is always there. I am tempted in other ways. Running a public blog and dealing with anonymous and thoughtless idiots and haters tends to bring out the “old woman” who wants to curse these people, hunt them down, and dare them to say to my face what they write in e-mails or on this blog.
But I pray through it, knowing that God has placed me here for a purpose, and acting like a fool in public is not part of that purpose.
Christians constantly are being watched, and rightly so. Any little thing we do that appears hypocritical, unbelievers jump on it. To justify their own sin and rebellion, they “expose” ours and say, “See? The self-righteous hypocrite!” They rejoice when they “discover” we’re human, too!
But I’m glad they’re watching me. I defy the stereotype of what a Christian should be. Remember the car commercial catchphrase, “This ain’t you daddy’s Oldsmobile”? Well, I ain’t your momma’s Christian.
I debunk the myth of the doormat Christian, the “nice” Christian who won’t defend herself or won’t speak the truth boldly and loudly for fear that it would appear “unloving,” and I hope the unrepentant get an eyeful.
Back to Haggard. He got lost somewhere along the way, but the beautiful thing about God’s grace is that it never leaves the believer. If he is truly saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, Haggard has a mighty arsenal at his disposal. God allows these things to happen to Christians for a variety of reasons, and I won’t try to guess why this happened to Haggard.
The Bible teaches that we’re all sinners, Christians and non-Christians alike. The difference between the two is that Christians are forgiven for all the sins they’ve ever or will ever commit. Non-Christians are not. They are still under God’s wrath, and unless they repent of those sins and accept Christ as their Savior, they will be judged and punished as unrepentant criminals.
Haggard knows that God has already forgiven him, but the difficult part will be asking his family to forgive him and forgiving himself. Christians know that no matter what we do, the one true God still loves us. He loved us enough to sacrifice his Son so that we wouldn’t be punished for our perversion. Christ bore the shame of it for us.
This fact should embolden all Christians. So don’t despair or shrink away in embarrassment as we learn more about the extent of Haggard’s perversion. Pray for him and heed God’s warning:
“Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. ” (Galatians 6)
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Excellent thoughts La Shawn. The Lord clearly knew that we all would stumble, even those who are in leadership. That is why His word gives us clear direction about how to handle such matters. I hope that the leaders who are overseeing this matter handle it in a biblical manner.
I think for people like me on the left, what gets us is that these people who clearly are gay, use their power to go after their own. We view homosexuality in different ways. you see it is a depraved lifestyle, and I see it as something people are born into. We won’t change each others mind, and the fight is for the minds of the next generation. If poll of young Americans is anything to go by, my side is winning.
One comment, and I’m staying out of this section for the rest of the day. Whether or not people are “born” into homosexuality or they “become” homosexuals, it is still a perverted form of sexuality. Some people are born with a propensity for violence or alcoholism (as I believe I was), but that doesn’t mean it’s OK to do because I was “born” this way. Read the Bible, vikram, and you’ll quickly learn that God doesn’t excuse our sin even though we have sinful natures. We are still called to obedience; Christians are called to be holy despite our natural inclination to rebel against God.
The fight is indeed on for the minds of the next generation. And if the “left” is winning it is because Christian parents have sold out the education of their children to the state. In the schools, right and wrong are relative and tolerance is trumpeted as the ultimate virtue. While the world parades around excusing perversion as just another alternative, God doesn’t by any of the excuses. As La Shawn said, we are called to a life of obedience and denial of self.
Its interesting to listen to the media play this story on radio every hour on the hour. To bad the media couldn’t have paid that kind of attention to the responses of the troops to Kerry’s comments like that. This strikes me as very suspicious that this story would come out less then 96 hours before the elections. Liberals and the media know that republicans are pushing for a large evangelical turnout. Last but not least. I wonder will the media do an investigation into the background of this guy, just to see if he is linked to any gay activist political groups. I know the answer to that one. Never mind
What, exactly, is “perverted” about it? Your statement is conclusory. Can you explain and justify it?
The biblical model for sexual relations is between a man and woman within marriage. In that regard, fornication is perversion, too. – Admin
On a personal note, I’ve never been tempted to start drinking again…
LaShawn, there’s nothing “unchristian” about consumption of alcohol- it was a societal norm in the Bible times and obviously Jesus did it. Drunkeness is the sin, not drinking. Just like gluttony is sinful, but not eating.
Michael, I didn’t say nor did I imply that drinking alcohol was sinful. Because I’m susceptible to drunknesses, it is sinful for ME to drink alcohol. If you decide to comment on this blog again, please read more carefully and take the time to understand what’s being said. – Admin
Ted Haggard has already received forgiveness through God’s grace. He does have a long way to go to regain the respect and trust of his family and congregation. That’s why it is so important to guard ourselves against temptation and seek God’s strength when we face our own inner demons.
Maybe some of the coverage has to do with this, since the President wants to ‘dance with the one that brung yaâ€.
According to the Wall Street Journal on 6/21/2005:
Ted Haggard, the head of the 30-million strong National Association of Evangelicals, jokes that the only disagreement between himself and the leader of the Western world is automotive: Mr. Bush drives a Ford pickup, whereas he prefers a Chevy.
I debunk the myth of the doormat Christian, the “nice†Christian who won’t defend herself or doesn’t speak the truth boldy and loudly for fear that it would appear “loving,†and I hope the unrepentant get an eyeful.
I also cringe every time that someone who doesn’t know our lord Jesus Christ sits there and says “What Would Jesus Do?” whenever they are trying to excuse some sin in their life when a Christian points it out.
Does this sound like a namby-pamby wuss, like the World would have us think of Jesus as being:
Matthew 23–
“27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness…31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?”
7 times He says, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!”, twice he says, “Woe to you, blind guides!” He calls them “whitewashed tombs”, “fools and blind”, and a “brood of vipers”. Are these the words of someone who “just wants everybody to get along”? NO!
Keep on keepin’ on girl!! Keep tellin’ it the way you tell it! The world needs more of it these days!
“Haggard knows that God has already forgiven him, but the difficult part will be asking his family to forgive him and forgiving himself. Christians know that no matter what we do, the one true God still loves us. He loved us enough to sacrifice his Son so that we wouldn’t be punished for our perversion. Christ bore the shame of it for us.”
And, of course, the Lord’s forgiveness need not remove the earthly consequences of the sin. Yes, if he repents, he can be forgiven and once again walk in the Spirit, in close communion with God, but he may have lost his standing among men. But then, which is more important anyway? God can use this to help him and others.
It’s such a sad fall from grace when you have someone so prominent within the kingdom fail so completely. But then… there is God. All avenues of redemption are open. It’s a truth that unbelievers simply cannot grasp. My prayers go out to this fallen brother and his family.
I think it is important for us as Christians to emphasize that we are all fallen. And we are all sexual perverts! Let me explain. Jesus raised the bar on sexual purity when He said that any man that looks on a woman with lust in his heart is guilty of adultery and deserves eternal punishment. WOW. I write this as a sexual pervert because I have times of inappropriate sexual desire. So what that it is toward women, so what that I am hetero, I am a sexual sinner. My thoughts are enough to condemn me.
On the other hand, Scripture is clear about homosexuality. It is sinful too. But it is playing with smoke and mirrors to focus on homosexual sin as a “real” sin while dismissing my own sin. Now I do not condone lust as a good lifestyle and present it as such. And that is a difference from the gay agenda, which advocates homosexuality as an accepted lifestyle. But in terms of sin, there is no difference.
Trey
i remember learning about Ted Haggard in a Barbara Walters Special last year on God that featured every day believers of all religions, terrorists, and spiritual leaders. As a religious minority who was born here to foreign born parents (I’m a macaca) I initially found him to be very arrogant and annoying when he said something to the sort that only Born again Christians are saved on judgment day, and therefore the only way to heaven is by being a born again Christian.
My parents are from North India, and even though we are hindu, my mom went to a Catholic school in India, and we have a lot of Muslim friends. I remember one day when I was about 7 or 8 years old, I was introduced to the idea that Muslims believed that only Muslims would be saved on their judgment day, and Christians believed that only Christians would be saved on their judgment day. I asked my mom what we believed.
I remember her telling me that even if someone believes that you will not be saved because you don’t adhere to their religious beliefs, you should always tell them that all righteous and humble people will be saved regardless of their beliefs, because the spirituality you will feel from tolerance is far superior to any spirituality that comes to you from exclusion.
In that light, at Ted Haggard’s lowest moment, he may still believe that because I am a Hindu I will not enter the the Kingdom of God when my time comes, but I feel that if he legitimately feels guilty about what he’s done to his family, and he atones for his sins through honest conservation with his creator, he will enter Heaven when God comes calling for him regardless of what he believes of me.
“When you preach/teach/nag against something and people find out you’re doing the thing you preach/teach/nag against, you are a hypocrite who deserves ridicule, especially if you’re high profile”
Now, as a Christian, you should know and understand that it’s not ok to ridicule anyone even a hypocrite. Jesus did not call on us as Christians to ridicule those who sin.
And I’m ridiculing whom, exactly? Calling a thing by its name is “ridicule?” – Admin
I think that whenever a Christian/believer/born again person is moving in a certain kind of upward direction, whether it’s a public position or wealth or success or even a more “inconspicuous” direction the Enemy doesn’t want them to go, then they need a lot of prayer and need to humble themselves before God and ask for His help as often as possible because otherwise, temptation and complacency will make them fall.
I’ve noticed that if I’ve made certain strides with individuals or with personal/professional progress or whatever, something will come along that will try to make me trip, as if there’s a torpedo being launched towards me. So what I do is when I know that I’m approaching a certain progressive point, I stop to ask God to protect me and help me, because the torpedo is going to come.
That guy should’ve kept himself in check, or he should’ve stepped down from his public position to get his act together.
To those who question the timing of this revelation, I think you’re missing the boat. Whether the timing of Haggard’s exposure is deliberate or not isn’t the important part. The fact is that if he did the things that he is being accused of he is the worst kind of hypocrite. Christ forgives him but this does hurt the Christian right agenda of denying gays the right to marry. Also, as for a double standard as to how a Republican is treated as opposed to a Democrat during scandals like this, Republicans have the image of the “morality” party, that they hold themselves to a higher standard. Therefore when they fall they fall harder than Democrats.
I understand that the accuser has flunked the lie detector test.
Hmmmm!
Excellent book to read, which I’m thoroughly enjoying at the moment, for all y’all who are skeptics or atheists or whatever: “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist” by Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek, forward by David Limbaugh. It’s extraordinary.
“The Bible teaches that we’re all sinners, Christians and non-Christians alike. The difference between the two is that Christians are forgiven for all the sins they’ve ever or will ever commit. Non-Christians are not. They are still under God’s wrath, and unless they repent of those sins and accept Christ as their Savior, they will be judged and punished as unrepentant criminals.”
As someone who is not a Christian, here is a question that I don’t feel I’ve ever got a straight answer to (sorry, no pun intended!):
If Christians are already forgiven for all of their sins, then how is it that they are still under God’s wrath, and will be judged and punished? The two things would seem to be mutually exclusive.
They are not under God’s wrath. Christ received our punishment. Why are you confused? I thought I made myself clear in the post. This will clear up things. Don’t take my word for it. Read the Bible and learn for yourself. – Admin
#7 To: Michael Chaney
Michael I don’t know if you’ve studied the term “wine” as it i used in the scriptures or how the Jews views strong drink and the efforts they made to make sure it wasn’t a strong drink but it was still called wine not all of the places where it’s mentioned means it was a alcoholic drink. I know when we today use the term it always means alcoholic drink. The only reason I mentioned this is that when you use Jesus as an example for drinking we need to be careful.
LaShawn,
I had never read your “Sobering Truth” before. Very moving and very good, God is working through you, as you know, keep it up we all need it.
A comment from a former believer. And one of the reasons I am a former believer is that most people who talk like the way you do on this Board, being very forgiving toward Haggart, are often far less forgiving when it comes to others. It’s the hypocrisy that gets you every time. Haggart is forgiven; Clinton never was, though his sins, such that they were, pale in biblical significance compared to the cornucopia of sins we see Haggart engaged in not just once because of a “slip” but actively, for years, while he preached fervently against gays – something many of us who don’t buy that part of the Leviticus (or much of the rest of it) have a problem with. Of course it provides those of us who hated his politics with some amount of schadenfreude. How the mighty egos fall. Is that very Christian of me to feel that way? No. Is it very Christian of Haggart to spew hate at guys while engaging in the “bestial” acts he condemns? Um. No.
Haggart is going to be a sobering experience for the evangelical community, as it should be. His crime, if it was a heterosexual prostitute, would be one that would be embarassing. But this is so, so much worse because Haggart made it so.
Andyou say so blithely that the good Lord will forgive him his hypocrisy and hate and pride. Maybe. He better hope so. But the rest of us will enoy his downfall as karmic justice of the highest order.
Not that I believe in karma either.
On your own soul be it, Peter, but I’ll pray for you.
Please don’t dump your frustrations about what other Christians may have said about Clinton. That has nothing to do with me. Besides, straw makes me sneeze. I never said nor implied that the man wasn’t forgiven. If he is saved, it’s already done!
And it’s sad that you’ve allowed fellow fallen men to turn you away from the faith. Your faith in Christ is between you and Him, not between you and other Christians. As I said, you’re in my prayers.
One more thing: get rid of your notions of what is the “Christian” way to behave and speak. Whatever Haggard did with this homosexual whore, he nevertheless told the truth. That is what makes his hypocrisy so unnerving. He knows the truth and still disobeys God.
Bam…it appears another leader succumbs to temptation’s power.
And man-oh-man…temptation is being poured out like never before in history.
It’s bombardment and more bombardment of every form of lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life – the floodgates have opened in these last days.
Christians need to be alert & sober (and become “street smart” ) and check to see if temptation is calling them too as decadence, lust, greed, vanity, viloence are unleashed in our generation through tv, internet, print, radio, movies music, et al. – again, like never before.
The heat is turning up in these days. The world’s going to rock & roll & reel as we head toward the end.
So these leaders would be wise to wait on the Holy Spirit to reveal sin’s potential within them whether obvious or unknown.
Psalm 139:23:
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
The liberal left hates the right for one main reason…..Bush’s core base of born again christians. When one of those christians in leadership gets exposed the left gloats….case in point is this story being all over the internet. But like you said LaShawn, the difference between a christian and a non-believer is God’s grace and forgiveness. Yes, he deserves the ridicule and public humiliation he’s getting right now….but in the eyes of God, he’s forgiven once he asks for it. In this light….it doesn’t look like the left is really winning at all. lol
First of all, let’s get our semantics correct. This is not hypocrisy, it’s a double standard. That term has been butchered.
The reason why God allowed this to happen is because he’s not in favor of haggard types trying to implement policies in his name. It’s no coincidence God allowed Foley and Haggard to be exposed in the month before the election. Conservatives have been violating the “What would Jesus do” rule for years now and He’s finally taking steps to fix the problem.
Amen Sister
All of this is so very sad for the truly innocent victims of this — Ted Haggard’s wife and five children. I can’t imagine how difficult this must be for them, and my prayers are with them.
I’ve long argued that most forms of extremism harkens back to one’s own psychological issues. I’m reminded of the psychological theory that suggests that the psyche is similar to a tube of toothpaste. The gist of the argument is that a tube of toothpaste works well when the cap is removed and pressure is applied in order to push the paste from the container. However, if the cap is placed on the tube and the same pressure is applied, toothpaste will eventually ooze out from numerous newly created and unintended openings. The psyche functions similarly in that if we allow our identity to flow naturally and resist the societal pressure to “cap it” we function normally…but if we attempt to hide our identity…meaning to “cap it” in order to keep it hidden (whether that be from shame, fear, or some other factor)…it will escape and manifest itself in numerous dysfunctional behaviors.
If Jesus was to be our example, then I don’t understand this thing we now call Christian values. Pastor Haggard may believe that he speaks for God but his actions suggest that he merely fears his own humanity. Further, if the values he espouses exist to demonstrate his faith in the God he knows, then the God he knows must have already seen this element of his humanity that he cannot personally accept…which would mean that any true God has already accepted that which we humans won’t and would also prove that the God Haggard purports to represent is not a real God but a God of his own creation designed to serve his flawed view of the human condition.
Read more here:
http://www.thoughttheater.com
As a Christian, I believe that if he asks for Christ’s forgiveness he will receive. However, I also believe that as a pastor, a Shepherd, he is elevated among men. Therefore, he has extra responsibility because he tends a flock. Sometimes, Christians are so comfortable in God’s Grace that we don’t reflect daily on our lives. As we examine the Scriptures, we should also examine our example of being Christ-like. After all that he has done for us, the best witness that we provide is not what we say to others or from a pulpit on Sunday morning, but how we live daily. Of course I am not free from all sin, I am human, but I constantly think, God is watching me. As I don’t like to disappoint my family (parents, husband, children) I especially don’t want to disappoint my Savior. Keeping that thought in mind daily helps me to avoid most and some of the most seriously offensive sin. As my father used to say, when you go out, you represent me. Well, as I live my life, as a Christian I represent Christ. I want to be the best representative I can be.
Heather
The liberal left hates the right for one main reason…..Bush’s core base of born again christians. When one of those christians in leadership gets exposed the left gloats
This thinking must stop. Generalizations of this nature are demeaning to the thoughtful people with whom you may disagree. We must continue to see each other as God’s children and deserving of respect and love. If someone else chooses to behave and speak in a cruel and demeaning manner we cannot allow ourselves to be reduced by their actions. We must keep love central in our hearts and understanding.
Dude, I’m not “lecturing” you. You came to me. I didn’t e-mail you a link to my blog. You are free to go – and remain – elsewhere. – Admin
i wouldn’t care what this clown did or who he did it with. i am not a “believer” but i do believe he has the right to say whatever he wants, even if it is the height of hypocrisy. that is for him and his congregation to work out. but what is extremely troubling for me is that this is the sort of man that the white house puts it’s faith in, this is the kind of poor judgment they have shown repeatedly. and it shows that jeff gannon was not a fluke. troubling. very troubling.
Today must be a terrible day at the Haggard household. I feel for his family and for him, his career is pretty much over. That said, what disturbs me is that at first the whole incident was denied, and the faithful in the church and the pastors friends defended the denial because of their trust in the pastor. Then as the day, or the evening wore on, and the evidence mounted, the denial became a partial confession. There seems to be a pattern here of deny until the other side can prove it, then admit guilt. This leaves a lot of people hanging out to dry who went on record with the spin being released by the pastor. This is probably some very expensive legal advice, but it´s hurting a lot of people unneccessarily. Man up, and admit up front what happened, not only what appears to be provable.
An additional comment. While I realize that this thread is not expressly about homosexuality. As Ms. Barber has mentioned, biblically it is considered an abomination. Even if one believes that homosexual tendencies are born that way, it does not mean that the practice is a part of the natural order. That is a difference between Christians and non-Christians. We as Christians can identify original sin and free will as a root cause of experiencing sinful feelings that we see as wrong and others think are natural so they are ok to act on.
If you do an examination of the physical health of older gay men, you will see that they are exposed to more and in some cases different health risks than those of the average heterosexual relationship. It is less a matter of the heart and more a matter of health. Sodomy is unnatural. Our bodies were not designed for the practice. The same could be said of a heterosexual couple who engages in frequent acts of sodomy. There are health risks involved. Sexual perversions lead to increased need for the rush that is felt with the initial acts. So people go further and further. As Ms. Barber mentioned with drinking, you are always looking for that good feeling again. Likewise, many acts between gay couples (especially men) begin to push the envelope more and more for more sexual satisfaction. Hence, Hubbard had to use drugs to help heighten the high.
I know a bit about this because while I like to know the Christian arguments for and against things, that does not always work with non-Christians so I research other reasons why things we may consider wrong indeed appear to be wrong.
Again, I apologize if the post is considered disgusting, but it is truth. Forgive me Ms. Barber.
Heather
We all fall short. Why else would we need Him. I’m amazed He wants us, all of us, warts and all. Thank you so much for your insight.
Although I am a conservative, I would be just as must a hypocrite as a liberal if I were not to take Haggard to task. This man (Haggard) is an abomination. He has duped his entire congregation, the ministry, his family, and this great country.
It has been said that Haggard has an advisory role within the Bush White House. This is merely more fodder for the liberals, which in my opinion they will use to further distort the Christian Right and our issues. As I stated from the outset, I would be just as hypocritical to say the liberals were wrong for making Hubbard an issue. Thusly, (because of another lying perverted “Foley-like” dog among us) we must take our lumps.
As I stated once before, I could care less what two people do behind closed doors, but if you’re a perverted homosexual or a child rapist I want to know!! (so that you can be dealt with appropriately)
Re-38. My prayer is that this is not the sort of man that the white house puts its faith in. Rather the white house (and every professing believer) should put their faith in the sort of a man who is described in the Gospels, namely Jesus the Christ. Anyone else has feet of clay, including me. When you make people your role model, you have to be aware that they are all depraved. This is the principle called “universal depravity.” It doesn’t mean that we are all totally depraved, but it does mean that we all fall short of the Glory of God.
The sad part is that this man’s witness has been severely damaged by his actions and because of that, many have and will assume that the failure of this man applies to the leader he professes to follow. It does not, and the Bible makes it abundantly clear that no one else on earth is immune from moral failings. One of the (if not the) greatest Christians that ever lived bemoaned his humanity saying, “So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.” His conclusion was that he could, in himself, do no good, but he concluded with “Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
This whole sordid affair is just another example of the hypocrisy and perversion that people like “Pastor Ted” engage in. He holds himself up as some sort of pseudo Jesus, all the while doing drugs and having gay sex that he paid for. He walked around like the sanctimonious King and was cheating on his wife. The truth is a powerful thing that always exposes frauds like this guy.
>>Haggart is forgiven;>>
Who says? forgiven by whom? Haggert will be forgiven if he asks for forgiveness. I think we’re assuming he’s asked for that forgiveness from God – but we don’t really know. Whether his wife and family can forgive him is another matter. And none of our business.
>> Clinton never was>>
Clinton never asked for forgiveness.
Neither did Kerry.
How can anyone expect forgiveness without the offender asking for that forgiveness? Isn’t it pretty egotistical to “give” forgiveness when the other person hasn’t even asked for it?
#44 And that is another good point, the truth is a powerful thing. God will not use unclean vessels for His Holy purposes. The Israelites thought they had a favored position and therefore license to commit all types of sins. God sent them into exile to show them the error of thier ways. When you purport to be a man (or woman) of God, God does hold you to a higher accounting. That is why we should be prayerful before accepting teaching roles in the church, for example, because we must be above reproach for God to bless our ministry.
now if you can only admit that your party leaders are hypocrites like you admit your religious leaders are hypocrites.
So another drive-by anonymous commenter darkens my URL! So be it. Check out this post:
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2006/10/02/mr-speaker-you-must-resign/
Update in case you haven’t seen this yet. Haggard’s accuser FAILED his lie detector test. Shocking I know. I have it posted at my site from the Denver Post.
” Because I’m susceptible to drunknesses, it is sinful for ME to drink alcohol.”
Now there’s an interesting comment, Ms. Barber. Are you saying that some things are sins for some people but not for others?
Is it possible then that homosexuality may be a sin for a man like Pastor Haggard but not for my Aunt and her “lady-friend”? Could it be that their committed, monogamous relationship of thirty-five years is more of a marriage than Pastor Ted’s?
You raise an important point with that remark. I hope you’ll think about it.
For people like Haggard or Swaggert or any of the other high profile ministries that have fallen over the years, their high-profile attracts a higher level of demonic activity than the everyday Christian. Maybe some don’t believe in that, but the whole new level new devil concept holds true for these guys. I have no trouble believing these men are very anointed and gifted men who God uses to do great things, but at the same time they battle demons that the rest of us will never encounter. Mix that in with the adulation and super star status that we heap upon them, and it´s almost a wonder this doesn´t happen more often. This looks to be a very terrible thing with repercussions for a lot of people, including his family and his church family, and it is, but how would we handle being in the same position? Our weakness might not have been the same ones that tripped up these men, but we would have just as surely been in a battle unlike any we´d experienced before. The only hope is to walk in humility and in the love of God, and stay close to Him.
Stacy – Remember that Haggard admitted to some “indiscretions,” even in the accuser is lying about some of it. At this point I don’t think it matters which one (sex or drug use) is true. His leadership as a Christian is over.
“A Hermit” (I hate obviously phony names, but moving on…)- No, the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin, and we Christians (or at least some) believe God’s word is inerrant. If anything, I am wrong in calling drinking as it pertains to me a sin.
Nice try, though.
i read your link to your article that you posted about your alcholosm. i understand addiction and depression. i also understand destructive lifestyle so i can relate to what you went through. i’m glad you found something that worked for you (christianity). this is what it took for you to become better individually. part of me wants to leave it at that because i don’t believe in crapping on people who bettering themselves in a nondestructive manner.
however, i have a concern that goes deeper than individual achievements. for african americans i don’t believe that just turning to christianity is the answer. this religion as we know it today in this country is a tool to passify and oppress the community overall. our religion was stripped from us and this was the replacement. i don’t subcribe to any religion. i’m not muslim, christian, or anything else. i believe in christ and he ideals as i understood him to live. but i don’t subcribe to the organizations or doctrines that supposedly praise him. they tend to praise his death more than his life. but i am a “liberal”, thus i am open minded and accept that it works for you and many others. if that’s what it takes for you to be a better person i fully support it. as for the community we need alot more.
La Shawn – you “don’t want to know the details”?
I think its time for full disclosure. We should expect nothing less from a man who earned a good living – paid for by the hard-earned contributions of his followers – telling others how to live their lives and condemning homosexuality. Arrogance, self-righteousness and bigotry are an awful combination of personal attributes, but Pastor Haggard appears to have had an abundance of each.
The bigger they are the harder they fall. And this could not have happened to a more deserving fellow.
I’m referring to the details of his acts with the homosexual whore, Dennis. If he used church money to do it, then yes, his congregation, at least, needs to know how their money was spent. – Admin
Will this keep the fundies out of everyone’s bedrooms and personal lives? Probably not, but it’s a schadenfreude moment to be savored!
Just wanted to be clear about something. You said,
“The Bible teaches that we’re all sinners, Christians and non-Christians alike. The difference between the two is that Christians are forgiven for all the sins they’ve ever or will ever commit. Non-Christians are not. They are still under God’s wrath, and unless they repent of those sins and accept Christ as their Savior, they will be judged and punished as unrepentant criminals.”
Does that mean Jews are unrepentant criminals?
The Bible teaches that all who are not in Christ are under God’s wrath, so yes, unbelieving Jews, like everyone else who doesn’t believe in Christ, are unrepentant criminals. Jewish Christians, however, are in Christ, and I know quite a few of them. If you’ve got issues with that, take it up with God, not me.
Is that clear enough?- Admin
I wish everyone would stop putting this in one religious perspective.
The rest of us (the other 85% or the country) are responding to the hypocrisy of the event. If this had been anyone not one of the “self-proclaimed judges of American morals”, he would have been held up as model for the immorality of America.
Since this is one of there own they say he has already been forgiven and must regain his good standing…. What crap! The guy is a liar and manipulator. You’re all in denial cause you fell for it hook line and sinker. Try getting your money back…even better the removing the stains on your dignity. Remember Jessica Hahn…when will you get it.
The rest of us that don’t proclaim superiority of morals and ethics (while attacking the “pagens and heathens”) have every right to tell you that your no better than anyone else…..when your house is clean try inviting us over before you trying to make us clean ours to your delusional specifications. Try a little humility for a change and practice what you preach to everyone.
Thank you, La Shawn, for going point on this. I must be out of some loop, as I had never heard of this Haggard. But I do know that God deals with each of us Christians in our weaknesses, is patient and longsuffering as we often stumble and fall. It will be a wonderful day when we cast off these perishable bodies and gain the imperishable which will not be stained by sin.
I hope that Haggard seeks forgiveness; I know that when we humble ourselves and reach out to God, He answers.
Whether the holiness/spirituality we discuss is that of our political leaders or that of someone “prominent in the kingdom,” my mind is drawn to that verse from Psalms:
“Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.”
When I see a pastor/teacher becoming more “prominent” than his church or his message, I see a prince. When I see a politician claiming (or being named with) godliness for political advantage, I see a prince. Therein lies both temptation and danger.
First let me say that I was moved by your personal story and your journey to sobriety. I am always moved and bolstered when someone shares such an experience. I have quite a few years sober, but I never get tired of hearing about the miracle of people getting clean and sober.
I am not a Christian, I have never felt any inclination toward organized religion. I don’t particularly despise religions (though I do think the modern Muslim is a perfect example of why reason should always be first in line before faith). However, though I disagree vehemently with your political leanings, I deeply admire your personal application of your religion. I am always heartened when I hear your take on whatever the scandal-du-jour is. You generally forgo condemnation and humanize the issue, no matter what side of the aisle is embroiled in the scandal. Thank you for that, it brings us back to earth. I was gloating about the parade of scandals that seem to be hitting the OTHER side (I was crying in the 90s, believe me). But you remind me that, but for the grace of God…..you know the rest. And I am also reminded that even though God forgives, every action has a reaction: We are all responsible for the blow back that comes from our actions. Every bit of it (even our opponents happy cavorting at our expense), forgiveness does not mean escaping consequences.
Now that I am done admiring and identifying with you, Ms. Barber, I will commence excoriating your political leanings.
Thank you and have a lovely weekend.
When Christian leaders fall I feel that the best way to discuss their failure is on a leadership basis. Salvation is a no-brainer. You sin, you ask for sincere heartfelt forgiveness from that sin, you are forgiven. You reap what you sew. Things are a little stickier when it comes to being a Christian leader because you must have the respect of people in order to lead them. There are things that you can do that may or may not be a sin that can damage you ability to lead Christian people. Drinking alcohol is a good example is it a sin depends on who you ask. Will your known consumption of it damage your ability to lead Christian people is definitely yes. My pastor always says there are some things that are not a sin that you still do not do because of the effects it will have on your ministry.
The leadership on institutionalized religion in the U.S. leaves a lot to be desired. Whether it be pedophilia, philandering, ostentatious lifestyles, or aberrant theology, a closer examination of our leadership is long overdue.
John
You know, Muffler, when I read your post I went back and read this whole thread and I have come to the conclusion that you must have posted to the wrong site as the things you wrote are not, by and large, the direction of the conversation here. Who claimed superiority of morals? Who defended his behavior? Who even claimed that he was one of the “self-proclaimed judges of American morals”?
Sometimes I don’t get the point of these kinds of attacks. Sometimes I think there is no point. What I have read in this thread is an exploration of what causes people in high visibility ministries to fail, the nature of humanity in general, and the nature of forgiveness.
Someone I admire with all my heart said that I should remove the plank from my own eye before trying to remove the splinter from my neighbor’s eye (very similar to your point about cleaning up our own house), so you and He agree on that point. I would bet if you can put the sword down and pick the Bible up, you would find much more to agree about.
I read the Bible, and can only come to the conclusion that homosexual acts aren’t a huge concern for God.
Capitalism (coveting thy neighbors goods) is in God’s Top Ten List. Homosexual acts, not even mentioned in the Top Ten.
When are the bible-thumpers going to call out the Capitalists???
People should put their faith in god and not man. My relationship with god is my own, and nobody can change that. It shouldn’t matter what Foley, Haggard, Jim Baker or whoever does. People do sin, it’s basically human nature. What Haggard did or didn’t do isn’t important isn’t too me. I wonder do the media feel that this is going to shake Evangelicals faith down to the core? If they really think this, they really don’t understand the power of faith.
Ms. Barber:
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!
Your entry is well thought out, well written, and captures the duty off all believers as well as our witness to one another.
This blog entry of yours will be printed, clipped, and placed in my wallet.
Warmest regards and blessings to you!
Wonderful post (as always), Ms. Barber. Granted, I’ve always been a little uncomfortable with your referencing homosexuality as “perversion,” so I’m glad to hear your statement that all sin is perversion of God’s original intention (and thus, we’re all perverts).
It is very sad to see Haggard being reduced to such a state. I truly wonder whether or not he’d been keeping his same-sex attraction issues a secret. That seems to be the main issue for me. As Christians, I feel we are called to transparency. We should openly admit our temptations, not only so we can get the support we need, but so we can support others. That’s why I admire you for being so up front about your past struggles with alcoholism.
Similarly, I am a Christian that struggles with same-sex attraction, and I’ll say so to Christians that want to know (it’s not like I go around announcing it, but I don’t necessarily hide it, either). I do this so that I can be held accountable, and also so I can show Christians that there are homosexuals out there that are doing their best to follow Christ. Sure, I get some “weird” looks sometimes, but no one said Christians were perfect. I understand that, in the broken state the Church is in, Haggard would not have been able to be so open about his temptations to his general congregation, but I at least hope he’d told his wife and his closest friends.
Seeing how things turned out, though, I have a feeling he didn’t. Christians should remember that we were made to support each other. Simply relying on our own willpower (even if Christ is there to help) is not always enough.
P.S. I’m participating in NaNoWriMo. Wish me luck!
It does not seem to be any accident that we Christians are being tested hard these days. Let’s not forget that we have to deal with Satan too and he sure is waging one heck of a war as we speak. So, now is the time to be stronger than ever before. Greater trials are ahead of us. Remember, we are to lead by the example of our faith. Pray for strength.
The closest I come to evangelical Christianity is watching some of it on television. Frankly, I find some of these ministers to be characters at a minimum. Their approach is way too visceral for me.
John
“The liberal left hates the right for one main reason…..Bush’s core base of born again christians.”
Actually, that’s not the reason the liberal left hates the right. I know tons of liberals, Christian and non-Christian, and it’s definitely not religion that is at issue. The problem is people who preach hate in the name of God. Even worse are the people who preach hatred of a group that engages in a particular behavior even though they engage in it themselves (e.g., I bet you a reasonable number of the people preaching against homosexuality have tried sodomy at least once–most likely heterosexually–but we’ll never know because the it’s nobody’s business).
I’m sorry, but I don’t believe that just because you accept Jesus Christ as your savior you are forgiven for all sins IN THE FUTURE and will be savedc. You can’t just say, “Jesus is my savior” and then walk down to your local park and mow down every child in sight. Equally sinful, in my point of view, is preaching hate–against homosexuality, other religions, or what have you.
As a Christian who believes strongly in Jesus’ teaching that it is not for humans to judge each other (throw the first stone), I find it a major bummer that this kind of behavior is so common among the more vocal Christians. God will be the judge. If we want people to change their ways, we must offer an alternative in a loving, non-hypocritical way. It’s really hard to hate someone who truly has an agenda of love and faith.
We should remember that when we attack a Christan and we ourselves are Christians, we are attacking ourselves because we all members of one body.
We are all saved by grace. As Jesus said, he who as not sinned should be the first to throw a stone. If the enemy is trying to bring division among Christians, we should join in but in the midst of whatever ever discipline his church chooses, we should balance it with love Gal 6.
Someone mentioned that kind of behavior is common among non Christians, I would like to point out the fact, that is because they are in the limelight that their sins are made public, if that person sinned, the whole country would not be blogging about it.
No has the right to say that Ted’s ministry is finished. David as at the peak of his ministry when he committed adultery, he reaped the consequences of his, but God restored him, and still calls him a “man after His own heart. When did we become God to determine the future and how God will handle this issue. God heals, restores and delivers.
Most importantly, we don’t even know if all this true. We should all be careful about what we say, so it the midst of believing we have to say something we shall be gossiping. Be slow to speak, the bible admonishes.
May the Lord continue to uphold us all by His grace and may be continually reminded that He that thinks he stands should take heed lest he falls.
From Christianity Today:
In New Life Church’s podcast of the October 29 sermon, among Haggard’s first words are, “Father, give us grace and mercy. Father, help us this next week and a half as we go into national elections, and Lord we pray for our country. Father, we pray that lies would be exposed. We pray that deception would be exposed. Father, we pray that wisdom would come upon our electorate and that they would think with clarity and with decisiveness, and Lord, that we would be a model for the whole world to see how people can disagree passionately but the rule of law … will prevail.”
Interesting how many people have automatically gone to “guilty” before all — or, frankly, any — of the facts are in.
For the most part all we have are the unsubstantiated accusations of one person against another — no proof, no witnesses, no evidence of any kind.
Haggard apparently confessed to some “indiscretions,” but we don’t know what they are — for all we know, he’s been sneaking a peak at his wife’s Victoria’s Secret catalog.
One thing he’s been adamant about, though, is that he did not have a sexual relationship with his accuser.
So before anyone goes and convicts this guy — as much as the self-righteous, “tolerant” left wants to — it might be nice to know exactly what the facts are first. Whether you agree with this guy’s viewpoint or not, there is still such a thing as due process in this country.
Interesting timing on the accusation, though — days before major elections.
Check Update III, posted half hour ago. – Admin
The Reverend Ted has been a virulent homophobe by day while always being a homosexual. He’s repugnant. But he’s also a classic example of a self-hater. This has nothing to do with sin and forgiveness and Christians being perverts. This has to do with people who call themselves Christian and have about as much to do with the teachings of Christ as an axe murderer.
La Shawn -
Thank you for your response, and, indeed, for your prayers. They certainly can’t hurt and if they help, that’s good.
This forgiveness thing. I don’t get. Really. If Haggard sins, he is automatically forgiven? In my (original) Catholic faith, if I sinned, I had to feel contrite and ask for forgiveness. But you don’t seem to indicate that. Am I misunderstanding your posting? (These are sincere questions.)
If he is automatically forgiven, why? Because prior to the sin he accepted Jesus into his heart? Why does that excuse current actions? But what if the sin is mass murder? What degree of sin is Haggard automatically forgiven for?
If I may say as an aside, one of the most powerful things I saw all year long was the forgiveness granted the mass murderer of Amish school girls by the fallen victim’s families. It was stunning and beatiful. But I don’t see if it applies here. If he did indeed do what he did, for three years knowing it was wrong, why is he forgiven?
These are sincere questions trying to understand our statements. They don’t detract from the profound satisfaction I feel in seeing this man take a dive.
Have you ever read the Bible, Peter? I mean all the way through, from Genesis to Revelation? It’s quite enlightening, even the so-called hard sayings. It would clear up a lot for you. Once a person repents and accepts Christ as their Savior, the Bible teaches, he is saved, once and for all. But only God knows if he’s sincere. About the person who killed the Amish children, the people he harmed (families, living victms) can forgive him on a human level, but that’s different from God’s forgiveness. The murderer would have to appeal to God through Christ for his sins. Don’t ask me to explain why some Christians live with habitual sin and still claim to believe in Christ. I’m not into soul-judging; that’s God’s business. But Christians, like everyone else, may judge people’s the behavior as wrong. – Admin
As a liberal Christian, I have a tough time when folks inform me that I hate Christians. I “hate” far right Evangelical Christians about as much as Jesus “hated” Pharisees (which, by the way, he didn’t at all – he hated them enough to die for them). (Also, not all right-wing folks are far right, and certainly not all evangelicals are necessarily right wing, so please don’t infer too much from that statement.)
Taking Jesus as my model, I believe that in a broken world, compassion – not purity – is the hallmark or defining characteristic of the Kingdom of God. For that reason, it has been very painful to watch my more conservative brothers & sisters (many of whom are close personal friends) enable and empower the coalition between leaders who I believe to be very Biblical, but very anti-Christian, in the same sense as the Pharisees. I have trouble understanding how concerns about homosexual marriage legislation somehow overrides how we treat the poor, or how a Biblical desire for sexual purity somehow overrides our care for those afflicted with AIDS (for a great example of an exception to this approach, see Rick Warren and his God-driven AIDS ministry). I have trouble understanding how convservatives can throw so much energy behind abortion issues (many of which I agree with) and homosexual marriage (about which I think reasonable people can disagree), but not call for national repentance for our culpability in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of folks on foreign soil. How can we accept that the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer? How can we accept the complete disregard for the poor by this administration, evidenced in amlost mythic fashion by Katrina? How can we claim to be made in the image of God if we do not show God’s grace to the entirity of God’s creation? Why haven’t the evangelicals demanded more from the administration that is so clearly beholden to them?
While I personally think it would be very good for the country and for the faith for there to be a corrective event in terms of religious leaders wielding political power (let’s remember, during the formative days of the country, it was the religious leadership that pushed for separation of church and state, to protect religion), it is still incumbant on Christians, liberal and conservative alike, to view this with sadness.
Even those such as I, who feel that Haggard and others are directly responsible for amplifying much of the brokenness in both the state and the church today, must mourn for brokenness. In the same spirit that take great joy in the Centurion’s confession at the cross, so we hope that all may find salvation in the grace of Christ.
That being said, there is a difference between forgiveness and repentence. Based on the statements last night, Haggard is not repentant. Perhaps that has changed. However, the public acknowledgement that has been forthcoming so far is less believable than Clinton’s denials of marajauna use. Really? He just happened to get a massage by a male prostitute at the direction of a hotel where he stays? (I suspect he stays at pretty good hotels, btw, so it’s really improbable that this would be a neutral recommendation to someone who was not looking for gay sex.) He bought meth because he was curious, but never used it? Really? That’s why he made two phone calls and suggested that there were regular meetings? “$100 or $200 worth” is a one-time buy borne of curiosity? Really?
I think it’s important to evaluate these actions rationally for at least two reasons. First, those who have been led by this man should ask themselves if they have been deceived, and to what extent. Was he also wrong about gay marriage? Have folks who believe he’s right really tried to understand the other side? Was he right about his unwavering support of this administration? Was he right about his very high=profile involvement in politics at all? If he was wrong, then that places a very large burden of wrong on his followers, one of which they too should repent. Hopefully this issue will at least raise these questions within an appropriate context of humility.
Second, letting him off the hook with such blatent lies will enable him. From the liberal Christian perspective, the evangelical leadership seems to have lost it’s way and become drunk with power. What did Paul boast about? Compare that with Haggard’s willingness to describe his influence within the current administration. How does Haggard’s lifestyle compare to that of Jim Wallis, another evangelical (for whom I have trmendous respect). Lord Acton was right, and much like in the case of severe brain damage, the first thing that corruption compromises is honest self-evaluation. If somehow this man gets to retain his authority with this incredibly & transparently false denial, it will be a disservice to his need for repentence and reconciliation.
I don’t say this as one who is perfect; I say this as an imperfect creature who mourns. In spite of what some of my liberal friends may think, this situation is not what was meant by “they shall be comforted”. Things are not as they should be; this is not the world God intended.
The way of Christ as I understand it is to take responsibility for that which I am not responsible; to accept suffering so that those who caused the suffering might be transformed into new life. In spite of the suffering that folks on the left feel has been perpetrated on America and the world by Haggard, Dobson, and others, those on the Christian left have no Christian choice but to mourn, speak the Word, and pray for reconciliation.
God bless.
tyrone,
I think the media are just reminding the public that the views of Evangelicals should not be blindly accepted as having any greater weight in the National Discussion due strictly to their beliefs.
La Shawn, have I told you that I’m so proud to have you as my Sister-in-Christ? YEAH!!
Any Christian should be very ‘afraid’ of rising in stature. While Satan (capital “S”) is busy trying to pull as many as possible away from God and into Hell, he is especially venomous to the higher profile Christians. And his perfect foil to our witness is our EGO.
Nothing would please Satan more than to pull a ‘Job’, especially to use the very thing that brings one to prominence as the means to get one to renounce God. And if success means that others fall away as a result, all the better.
Satan wagered God that by taking Job’s wealth, Job would curse God. I’ve never heard of Haggard, but if fighting homosexuality was H’s path to fame, it’s no wonder that Satan would use that to trip him up.
The Bible tells us that we wage war not against the physical, but spiritual forces. We’re also told that Jesus is constantly action as our intercessor. Why? Because Satan is constantly seeking permission to trip us. But he can’t touch a hair on our heads without God’s permission.
Another thing is that we’re also to pray for our leaders. We usually take that to mean the govt, but we should be praying for our spiritual leaders as well. Think about that. I don’t think I’ve heard too many deacons/elders/pastors saying “Pray for me as I wrestle with temptation”.
Another way of looking at this is from the example of Peter walking on water. We all know that spiel: if you’re troubled and afraid, do like Peter, look away from the stormy seas unto Jesus. Well the inverse is also true. If you have no sense of fear, maybe you need to do a cross-check. Overconfidence leads to a false sense of security and just as easily will cause you to look away from Jesus.
That all said, one might say what’s the point of ’sticking’ my neck out and tempting fate? Why not just hide this widdle light of mine under a bushel and protect it from being blown out?
Well, that’s what the servant with just one Talent did, he went and buried it so as to avoid risk, while his colleages took risks with their Talents and doubled it (That’s the Biblical definition of CAPITALISM — Robert at #69)
You’re right, Sensible Mom. As a heterosexual male, I’m always searching out gay male prostitutes when I need a massage. Please, Ted!
Either you’re being willfully stupid, or you’re just bored at work, or both. The paragraph reads:
“Having said all that, I have to say this: No Christian should be surprised that Haggard may have given in to his perverted thoughts and turned them into perverted actions. It’s a temptation we all face (temptation in general, people, not necessarily the same-sex kind).”
Got it now? I think the time to close this post draws near… – Admin
It’s not that Christians and Republicans don’t make mistakes and that they don’t have indiscretions, it’s that they build their careers on hatred of homosexuals and the poor. It’s unreasonable not to expect satisfaction on the part of the left when the same people that falsify scripture and inspire hatred end up being the exact people they vilified. As I recall the right got pretty excited about Clinton’s blow job. Just let us have our day and enjoy it.
Anonymous person, you’d better e-mail all those news organizations and liberal bloggers blaring “Accuser failed polygraph” headlines then. Thanks for commenting! – Admin
“Here’s a newsflash for unbelievers: Christians can be perverts, too!”
I thought long and hard about how one might respond to such a statement, and “Ya think??!” came to mind :-/
In that picture he looks uncannily like the condescending slimebag hypocritical ‘puritanical’ pedophile in the movie ‘Donnie Darko’.
*brrrr*
#52…
>>Are you saying that some things are sins for some people but not for others?>>
It could be. Have you ever heard of the concept of “a near occasion of sin”? It means that you have a weakness that leads you to sin, and if you put yourself in a situation that you _know_ is going to tempt you, you have already given yourself permission to sin, and therefore you have already sinned. If a person knows that every Friday for the last 10 years s/he has gone to the same bar and gotten drunk, and then makes a decision _not_ to get drunk again, it’s very probable that if s/he goes to that same bar again, s/he will also get drunk. It may be a sin – for _that_ person to even walk through the bar door. Some other person may not have that problem – s/he may have one beer and then go home. For _that_ person, going into that bar is no problem.
You know…with morality, each person is a little different. That’s one of the reasons those ten commandments are so basic and so simple – covers more territory that way. Making laws/rules very specific usually means that people will find loopholes so that they can indulge themselves. We humans aren’t usually very honest with ourselves about things we do that we shouldn’t.
You compare homosexuality to alcoholism, though. That’s absurd since one is a problem of degree, and one is a clear decision. One can be a “little bit” overweight, but one cannot be a “little bit” pregnant. One can drink alcohol and not become drunk, but one cannot be an active homosexual without _being_ an active homosexual. If one is homosexual but not sexually active, then it’s a different matter.
Lashawn -
I hope you have a peaceful and relaxing weekend. After blogging about Kerry and Haggard and reading all those 300+ comments….I know you look forward to a break!
Gay sex or a gay massage? Forgive me if I sound ignorant, but really what is the difference in terms of it’s impact upon a marriage?
I have great faith in people, and I believe that, inherently, most poeple wish to do good things and be good people. I find Haggard’s behavior reprehensible, and I feel sorry for the man. He obivously put his desire for power and to be recognized as a leader of men above being true to himself. It’s good that this has come out, no one needs such an astounding hypocrite leading them. I feel sorry for the Evangelicals who followed him. I disagree with most of the positions right wingers tend to take, but I respect their passion and commitment. The worst part of for him will be coming to grips not only with his fall from power, but with who he really is. I doubt his marriage will survive if he really did have sexual relations with another man. Perhaps when all this is over he can take up a position in the LGBT community.
This man’s excuses sound rather Clintonesque (I smoked it but didn’t inhale). I bought the drugs but didn’t use them. I had a massage not sex. Pleeeeeease!
John
Having heard Brother Haggard speak and been really motivated by his winning style, of course I felt very disappointed. It has to be painful for him to have so much light shined on his personal sin. (He apparently acknowledges drug use if not homosexual sin) But that is where true healing starts I think. God is not going to let any of us get away with secret sin very long. Better to confess and repent quickly and privately than to have it splashed all over the world. I suppose that if David of the Bible; “a man after God’s own heart” fell to sin, we all have to be alert that we are after all, sinners saved only by God’s grace trying to live up to a Holy standard in order to please God. As the song writer wrote “we fall down and we get up, we fall down and we get up, for the saint is just a sinner who falls down and gets up. Let’s pray for Ted Haggard to get up.
John you beat me to the punch line.
As a Christian it bothers me that all of you people defend this man.
If he had stayed in his place and not stepped into the political area then it wouldn’t be so bad because even the Bible speaks of separation between church and state.
Jesus said give unto Caeser what’s Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.
Besides I don’t understand how making something illegal is going to stop it when the Bible says if a man lust after a woman in his heart he has commited sin. So in the sight of God you don’t even have to commit the act physically to be guilty of it.
It tickles me that you ‘conservatives’ and liberterians think it’s the government is responsible for each person’t morality.
One Christian says I’m defending him; another says I’m too rough on him. I am so fortunate to not be dependent on what others think of my views. Fortunately, I have no desire to satisfy either camp. Ah, freedom! – Admin
Sister La Shawn,
Before visiting your blog today, I posted my own response to the story about Ted Haggard. My post is titled Jekyll and Hyde Christianity (Part 1).
Whereas you focus on the subject of forgiveness for sins, I focus on the subject of Christian accountability.
We shouldn’t overlook the fact that Ted Haggard stepped down from his leadership positions and submitted himself to the discipline of his church’s board of elders.
If anything, the Haggard case illustrates why we Christians need other Christians to be accountable to. Even we Christian bloggers need accountability partners. Is there anyone whom you are accountable to?
Thanks for the updates — now that we have a little more to go on we can intelligently analyze the facts at hand.
Lessee…bought drugs but didn’t use them…had an illicit, but non-sexual, relationship with a gay male prostitute…
There’s only one conclusion we can draw: Haggard is almost — but not quite — qualified to run for higher office as a Democrat.
*sigh* If ONLY he had taken the drugs and had sex with the guy. Maybe put his lover on the payroll in a job he was unqualified for for good measure.
Can’t you just see it unfurling like a tableau? The public accusation and the fervent denial: “I did NOT have sex with that man, Mr. Jones.”
Then, the evidence would appear — surreptitious recordings, a garment of some type stained with an incriminating bodily fluid.
And finally, the tearful confession: “I am a gay American Evangelical.”
The liberals — being the caring, accepting, tolerant bunch that they are — would rush to embrace him. It’s nobody’s business but his own,” they’d say, as they praised his bravery.
A lucrative book deal would follow. Jake Gyllenhaal would play him in the motion picture adaptation — “Brokeback Pulpit,” possibly.
He’d make the rounds of the chat shows — sitting on Oprah’s couch, dancing with Ellen, having tea with the ladies on The View. He’d trade laughs with Letterman, Leno and O’Brien.
And before you know it, it would be 2008 and “Haggard for President” on the Democratic ticket.
If only. If only.
You see kids, this is what happens when you don’t plan ahead and follow through.
I think haggard is gay and I could always tell by his mannerisms I saw him on an interview on lou dobbs talking about pat robertsons comments about assasinating hugo chavez when i saw that interview I have always had thought he was gay he looks funny. that gay whore set him up, the gay dude wants some ballot measures against gay people defeated so he set up ted haggard. i think it might not work just because ted is gay doesnt men the ballot measures should losse
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Forgiveness while boldly calling sin a sin. Alas, we have “all fallen short”.
Now we as Christians can pray that he follows in Peter’s footsteps after denying Christ, that he repents and allows God to use him in the future (though there will no doubt be consequences to his actions.)
Additionally, let’s not forget to also pray for the the accuser. God loves him also.
Nice piece LaShawn. For once I agree with you 100%.
Blessings to you, sis. Thanks for a compassionate, spiritual (Galatians 6:1) and wisdom-filled post. I learn so much from you. I’m praying for brother Ted, his family and congregation.
Roderick at 99: “If he had stayed in his place and not stepped into the political area then it wouldn’t be so bad because even the Bible speaks of separation between church and state.
Jesus said give unto Caeser what’s Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s
That’s an interesting stretch of what the Bible says. Do you recall the context in which Jesus said that?
Now juxtapose that with the following verses: Job 34:17 & Psa 67:4 from OT and from the NT, all of Roms 13, Heb chps 4 & 13. Seems to me that your assertion is a liberal fallacy.
As an aside to others vis a vis morality & greed (doesn’t have to be money, can be power or status), 1 Tim 3 specifically deals with those who would be spiritual leaders. Based on that, I think most mega churches, or those lead by female ‘pastors’ don’t quite fit the standard.
In any case, the entire Book of 1 Timothy is relevant to all aspects of this thread and I highly encourage all to read it. If you think you know it, then refresh yourself anyway. I daresay that some of the ‘christian’, but divers, ideas expressed today need to be contrasted against the Biblical Standard.
jblog @ #102, that was too funny and sadly true.
You know, in a mature religious culture, the Lord will forgive most any acknowledged sin against him, but he will only forgive sins against others when the sinner begs foregiveness of the sinned against. Haggard has a whole lot of folk that he must see
The #6 commenter asked w/r to homosexuality, “what is perverted about it?”
Princeton University’s on-line dictionary gives 3 definitions for the word “perverted”:
kinky: (used of sexual behavior) showing or appealing to bizarre or deviant tastes; “kinky sex”; “perverted practices”
distorted: having an intended meaning altered or misrepresented; “many of the facts seemed twisted out of any semblance to reality”; “a perverted translation of the poem”
depraved: marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good; “depraved criminals”; “a perverted sense of loyalty”; “the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat”
Kinky – bizarre or deviant – check.
Distorted – having an intended meaning altered – nope.
Depraved – marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper – check.
Some of those are based on morals that many possess because of religious beliefs. I am an atheist, so my definition is slightly different. I believe that perverted means:
Harmful to the species; non-contributing to its survival chances.
Disregarding the fact that AIDS is primarily spread by homosexual behavior, which is killing millions across the globe and therefore harms the ability for the species to survive, we still have the simple fact that homosexual behavior is contrary to the laws of nature in that sexual activity is a mechanism that has evolved over the Milena to help the species procreate and therefore continue to exist generation after generation.
The larger the homosexual population, the less the chances for survival. Therefore it is harmful to the species. That fits my definition of perverted exactly. Since it is unnatural and perverted, it is also deviant, and learned behavior. No serious linkage to genetics have ever been proved scientifically and it is not likely to be. Reason? How do homosexuals pass on their genes?
I must add that I find it difficult to imagine two males having sex to be anything besides disgusting. The plumbing and biology are incorrect.
I grow weary of the GROSS oversimplifications made by both “liberals†AND “conservatives†in this thread. (BTW, I hate BOTH of those labels. Hang-in there and I’ll explain why shortly.) IMHO, there are a large number of Christians on “both sides of the fence†that should be ashamed of themselves. I am speaking of the intolerance that I frequently witness on both sides. In my entire life, I can not recall EVER having met another human being of ANY denomination, background, or doctrinal affiliation where the labels “conservative†or “liberal†were really ANYWHERE close to being adequate for describing or characterizing that particular member of the human race (Christian or otherwise). I am SORRY, but the fact is, human beings are just a little bit more complicated than that. I, for one, pray that God will give me the grace to find ways to appreciate the many facets of a person’s make-up/personality/characteristics/beliefs — without simply categorizing them like this. I believe that we do each other a great disservice when we insist on attaching these labels to each other. It is shameful that we continue to beat each other over the head with these labels — which IMHO are not far removed from childish name-calling. I am convinced that we only do it because it is CONVENIENT and EASY. (No work, thought processes, or careful evaluations required here – just SLAP a label on ‘em.)
What Christians need to remember is that Jesus was neither a “liberal” nor a “conservative”. He was, in fact, considerably better than both (well, at least judging by the “liberal†Christians and the “conservative†Christians that I have met in my lifetime). As Christians, we ARE NOT confronted with a choice between being “liberal†or “conservative‖ which some others in this thread have likened to a choice between compassion and purity. We are called to be BOTH compassionate AND pure. Don’t believe it? Go back and re-read the 8th chapter of the Gospel of John when the woman caught in the act of adultery is brought before Jesus. I offer this story as “proof†that Jesus was BETTER than BOTH the “liberals†AND the “conservatives.†The “conservatives†wanted to stone this woman to death. First, Jesus exposes these men for what they are – viz. hypocrites. We read in John 8:7 “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.†I believe that Jesus was behaving like a “liberal†here. When all of the woman’s accusers left, Jesus uttered the first part of John 8:11 “Then neither do I condemn you.†Look at THAT, an act of “compassion†— He forgave her. Once again, he is acting like a liberal. But wait. There’s more. Then there’s the other half of John 8:11 where Jesus says “Go now and leave your life of sin.†Look at that. IMHO, that statement is at least two “conservative†ideas stated succinctly in a single sentence. First of all, He doesn’t mince words. He calls adultery what it is, viz. SIN. His statement is an acknowledgement that SIN is real, it is wrong, and that this woman is guilty. Second, Jesus makes it clear that He respects God law AND that He expects others to do the same. He exhorts the woman to lead a life that is “pureâ€. Now He is behaving like a “conservativeâ€. So you see, Jesus was BOTH compassionate AND pure, BOTH “liberal†and “conservative†– He is the best of both. I submit to you then, that Christianity is NOT an either/or proposition. Compassion and purity are NOT mutually exclusive. Get it?
I think your reactions to exposure of Haggard’s wrongdoing are right on, all shades and angles of them.
As for reactions to anything you say, what on this earth can any Christian say about virtually any topic that won’t draw criticism from those who reject Jesus Christ? Granted, a lot of people, including a lot of Christians, have valid reasons for distrusting Christian leaders, but as you well know, some people just jump on every opportunity to rub our faces in a new scandal.
My response has been much the same as yours: To the extent that Haggard is guilty of any of the charges, he opened himself up for it. He’s not the first evangelist (or politician) to be “outted” as a hypocrite, and I’m sad to say he won’t be the last. We are warned in scripture to “be careful where you stand, lest you fall,” and the more public the stand, the harder the fall, when we make bad choices.
Meanwhile, God goes on loving and offering redemption. If we were perfect, we wouldn’t need grace, and boy, do we need grace!
You make some good points about Haggard. We are all sinners and Christians are forgiven. However, the Bible also says that you should not judge others for the splinter in their eye when you have a board in yours. So, I think the big let down is his hypocrisy. He can redeem himself. But I mostly feel sorry for his family, the children especially who will undoubtedly face a lot of problems at school for their dad’s actions.
first time commenter here. good post! appreciate your honesty and vulnerabitity.
i think its too early to put on the judges wig. lets wait till all the facts come in.
The problem of the self righteous gay person is that they want religious people to be perfect. It’s all or nothing for the gay advocate. But sorry guys that is not how religion works. You have to accept imperfections as sins before God, but that doesn’t mean you should run away from God. Some of the most transforming work of religion is done by people who have grievely sinned and realized their error and then humbly submitted themselves to God’s will. A gay person who is completely physical and not putting much work towards a spiritual thought will trap themseleves in their own sex and will be unable to be cognizant of anything better. They need to accept that they are imperfect in nature and work towards where they choose to go.
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