Just as I’ve decided to stop complaining about illegal “immigration” from a burdened-American perspective, I may do the same with race preferences.
I’m only one person, and though I’ve probably influenced a few readers with my unorthodox opinions about so-called affirmative action, black people in general will always support it, just as they will continue voting for liberals.
It’s disheartening to know that yet another generation of blacks is growing up with persecution complexes and prove-you’re-not-a-racist-by-giving-me-perks attitudes. For at least 25 years, lowered standards and expectations for blacks have been the status quo in public institutions. Whether blacks are attending schools they’re not qualified to attend because of race preferences and would fare better at schools better suited to their abilities (high on my list of possible explanations) or whether the collapse of the black family and a general apathy to education relegates black kids to the academic basement, I don’t know and I honestly don’t care. People make their own choices in this free country, and if parents don’t care about their own offspring, why am I worrying about them?
A black liberal once asked me how I could be so adamant in my views, how I could be sure that I’d always think conservatively. He was upset that I was publicly displaying conservative views and believed that one day, I’d change the way I saw the world. (The implication was that I’d return to liberalism.)
Wherever you are, “concerned†black liberal, you were right. My view of the world is slowly changing, but not the way you’d hoped. I am convinced that some blacks are afraid to be treated equally because they know they’ll never be academically competitive with whites. I am convinced that deep down, some blacks would rather accept lowered standards than face the embarrassment of a truly level playing field. They will use any means necessary – political, legal, psychological – to make sure the color of their skin always remains front and center, and at the same time, castigate people who can’t see past it.
It’s illogical, but it’s what humans do. It’s a coping mechanism that is ingrained, passed from one generation to the next. The condition of black Americans as a group (high illegitimacy rates even at higher income levels, unstable families, disproportionately high crime rates, underachievement, etc.) won’t improve until a critical mass of that group understands and vocalizes the truth.
It is true that people have their own lives to live and their own choices to make. The last thing I want to do is tell people what to do. But when those same people expect me and others to bear the burden of those choices without complaint, the rules change.
Just as illegal “immigration†raises my blood pressure, so does acceptance of lowered standards and expectations. It’s a shame. It’s a waste. But, it’s the way it is.
Despite the tone of this post, I’m feeling good. Not to get too much into my life outside the blog but…a certain person in it is having a calming effect on me. Some battles don’t seem worth fighting anymore, namely, trying to convince people of the absolute need to see themselves as capable, morally accountable, and undeserving of anything handed to them out of pity.
Priorities change, and life points you in a different direction. I welcome it (and you), my friend. 
Addendum: I heard that groups against the anti-race preferences initiative in Michigan created political ads featuring two college basketball coaches supporting skin color preferences. The irony is almost too painful for words.
If state employee and UM president Mary Sue Coleman (see the column) gives the state trouble about race preferences at her school, perhaps people should illustrate the point by boycotting the university’s sports programs, starting with the the football and basketball teams, until they implement race preferences.
Update: A critic (black man) e-mailed to say, “It is is almost comical to here (sic) a so-called educated Black person trying to defend white folks.”
The educated black person is me, and my criticism of skin color preferences is a defense of “white folks,” I guess. You see how blind preference-loving folks can be? Speaking out against demeaning and discriminatory policies is defending white folks (which is supposed to be bad!). I guess it’s too mentally taxing for some people to understand that a government with the authority to discriminate in favor of blacks can use the same authority to discriminate against blacks.
Pitiful and embarrassing.
I really appreciate your attitude toward those “hopeless” situations we all agonize over. Thankfully God’s in control of this mess we call the world.
Comment by Jud — 11.14.06 @ 8:09 am
People make their own choices in this free country, and if parents don’t care about their own offspring, why am I worrying about them?
Simply because it is the right thing to do.
Some kids who are adopted or are available to be adopted fit into that category; parents didn’t care.
I am convinced that some blacks are afraid to be treated equally because they know they’ll never be academically competitive with whites. I am convinced that deep down, some blacks would rather accept lowered standards than face the embarrassment of a truly level playing field.
I strongly disagree. It’s why I don’t by into the false arguments of IQ and ‘g’.
It is true that people have their own lives to live and their own choices to make. The last thing I want to do is tell people what to do.
Finally, isn’t evangelism essentially telling people what to do, accept Christ, and why they must do it?
More later, maybe…
Comment by DarkStar — 11.14.06 @ 8:18 am
Darkstar, “Finally, isn’t evangelism essentially telling people what to do, accept Christ, and why they must do it?”
People do what they want. That is why they vote for people who best serve their interests in the worst kind of way.
Evangelism is letting people know that there is a way out of a well earned Hell that we are born into and validate by our actions.
Through Christ, there is forgiveness of sins, redemption, restoration and a way to have a relationship with our Creator who is, plain as day, “Just”.
Comment by RaLph — 11.14.06 @ 8:46 am
I am disappointed that you consider curtailing your commentaries on the injustice of racial preferences, particularly if because your opinions are not widely accepted. The world of ideas would be bankrupt if men and women of every generation would curtail their opinions – in so many instances their ideas have take root. Without delving in its history, I am sure that liberalism, conservatism and all the other isms were initially unaccepted.
True, people make their own choices but without diverse opinions, there is no choice. To some extent I think the reason you are worrying about them is rooted in scripture’s call for us to care for “widow†(a women without a husband) and the “orphan†(children without 2 parents).
I’m not sure that “academically competitive with whites†is the reason as much as it is that blacks perceive any attempt to raise their standards to that of whites as a rejection of their “black cultureâ€.
I believe yours posts can help enable “a critical mass of that group understands and vocalizes the truth.â€
Finally, I am happy to know that you are feeling good and that there is a certain person having a calming effect upon you.
Comment by Rich — 11.14.06 @ 9:23 am
A change in tone? While I am happy for you and your calming friend, I hope you will continue to get the message out, challenging the status-quo. You can change the tone, but please don’t quit the fight.
Comment by Dennis — 11.14.06 @ 9:37 am
>>”I am convinced that some blacks are afraid to be treated equally because they know they’ll never be academically competitive with whites. I am convinced that deep down, some blacks would rather accept lowered standards than face the embarrassment of a truly level playing field.
I strongly disagree. It’s why I don’t buy into the false arguments of IQ and ‘g’.”
I don’t think these certain people are actually lower in capability beyond the normal variation between individuals. It’s just that they’ve been duped by prevailing attitudes into believing they’re inferior, and for these people, it’s as La Shawn said: they don’t feel up to the task so they stay in their rut. (She did say ’some’ not ‘all.’) As children, they could’ve been taught & steered differently, but as adults with habits & comfort zones, it’s much harder to change.
For example, this part of her statement: “I am convinced that some blacks are afraid to be treated equally because they know they’ll never be academically competitive with whites.” It may not be that these individuals were born with less capacity, but if they weren’t trained and didn’t exercise what they had as children, then their capabilities as adults are diminished, and to play “catch up” at that point is difficult. Not impossible, but humans tend to take the path of least resistance so it’s easy to see how a problem perpetuates. Pile on the rest of the perceived & real junk about racial disparities, and we arrive at the present situation in the nation. That’s what I get from La Shawn’s statement.
La Shawn, it may feel as though you’re just shouting to the wind, but I really appreciate your being able to verbalize (type-tize?) what many of us think but don’t have the knack to say or write. Your tone might change, but please don’t stop “telling it like it is.” If the enemy constantly drums, we need to counter with constant trumpeting as well. Glamorous? Instantly gratifying? NO. Necessary? Yes.
Comment by FL Mom — 11.14.06 @ 9:39 am
In California where I live blacks have a dual crisis when it comes to academic competition. They not only have to go head to head with whites but Asians, too. Consequently, the University of California is calculating a way to get around proposition 209, the anti-affirmative action initiative passed by the voters a couple of years ago.
How about doing well in high school so you are able to attend a first or second rate university. Just think coming out of high school with highly developed study habits and good test scores. Why doesn’t the pro preferential policies crowd emphasize this.
Comment by John — 11.14.06 @ 9:53 am
LaShawn “Just as I’ve decided to stop complaining about illegal “immigration†from a burdened-American perspective.”
United we stand and divide we shall fall. I have to respectfully disagree with you LaShawn. I love my country, and I know you do too. Illegal “immigration” is more so then just a burden. I’ve seen all the ills that this problem has created. From language, to labor, to culture, to social security, to instate tutition, to being able to vote in our elections. I refuse to give up on this issue. As black people, our people have fought and died for the right to vote. It makes me ill knowing that people who weren’t even born here or are citizens are trying to obtain that “right”. As an American, I still would like to believe that “Membership still has it’s privledges”. The only thing that has destroyed more nations throughout history more so then war is countries with open borders. I want to preserve this country for my kids to inherite when I’m gone. I’m going to stand for something, because I refuse to die for nothing. I wouldn’t allow someone to illegally enter my house, and the same rule applies to my country. I pray you have a change of heart LaShawn.
Comment by Tyrone — 11.14.06 @ 10:31 am
My major problem with folks who are anti-affirmative action is that they want ‘race preferences’ to go but tend to have little to no outcry about other types of preferences especially in regards to higher education and hiring.
Then the next thing is ‘the key to level the playing field at the secondary level’ so that affirmative action isn’t needed at all. Some parts of the educational system are so broken RIGHT NOW that it will take decades to get fixed. So I guess all those kids should just suck it up, right???
And when in comes down to it, people really care about their own self interests. They only REALLY care about if their family won’t be harmed or can benefit from a change in policy. And that’s totally natural. But don’t act like we live in a Utopia.
I am very much in favor of revamping AA to reflect a person’s socio-economic background because class division is the real elephant in the room that no one is talking about.
But keep writing, LSB…I won’t have anyone to argue with if you don’t!
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 11.14.06 @ 10:43 am
In Michigan the ordinary voting public (as opposed to the elected politicians and lobbyists) dumped the affirmative action program. In the State of Arizona the ordinary voting public (as opposed to the elected politicians and lobbyists) made English the official language of the state along with a few other illegal immigration initiatives.
Of course, the game may not be over yet, given the history of liberal judges and the ACLU and other such organizations which interfere with the wishes of the ordinary people. But it is heartening to see our votes actually make a difference.
Comment by dianne — 11.14.06 @ 11:28 am
I am convinced that some blacks are afraid to be treated equally because they know they’ll never be academically competitive with whites. I am convinced that deep down, some blacks would rather accept lowered standards than face the embarrassment of a truly level playing field.
I think that this is flawed. A black person who pushes to go to a prestigious university apparently feels that he or she can compete there. In universities, even if the standards for admissions for blacks are lowered, the curriculum standards aren’t. What you end up with are blacks who may not be prepared for those places, but who feel that they can adjust and make it despite. These are people who are ambitious enough to want the Ivy League school on their resumes and are confident enough to try and compete at those schools despite being seemingly not prepared. If they feared that they could not hang in there with the white and Asian students, I doubt that they would make the attempt.
Its like a boxer who gets a title shot before he has gained experience. Most will take that shot based on overconfidence and a desire not to let such an opportunity pass. If they felt that they would surely lose, they would wait until they have gained the experience.
Comment by Shade — 11.14.06 @ 11:32 am
Once again shade right on. You can (and many economists do) make the argument that AA does tend to lower the effort and motivation of blacks when it comes to job seeking, job advancement, college admission, etc.. while at the same time gives rise to entitlement of blacks. However, a more fundamental question is where would we be without it?
I’m currently in graduate school but before I enrolled, I spent 3 years teaching high school mathematics in Boston Public Schools (a truly inner city school). What tragic experience.
They all had low skills. I kid you not. We are talking about not being able to add fractions. Not just one, but ALL of them. You could basically break the students into about two or three categories. Those who are not going to make it at all, Those who want to make it but are too lazy to work for it (and will exploit AA to compensate for self inflicted inadequacies), and those who want to make it, still have low skills but work damn hard to overcome as much as possible. It is this last group that gives AA its beauty.
I fall into the last group. I grew up in a small po dunk town in Mississippi. Basically, the high school I graduated from trained you to go on to work at the town’s light bulb plant. There was no college. You did not take SATs or ACTs. You graduated, worked, got married, pregnant, and that is about it. I’m not a naturally intelligent person. Any and everything i’ve gotten I’ve gotten through hard work. My skills were not as low as the students I taught but that last group I just mentioned and myself shared that same determination to break the pattern of constant underperformance of blacks, to make something of ourselves. I, like that last group, did not have excellent SAT scores, in fact, with the SAT scores I had, I should not have gotten into Boston University and yes, it was because I was black and a woman that helped me get in, but you know what, I seized the opportunity that I otherwise would have not been given to me and I made it work.
I went on to graduate with a 4.0 with a triple major in math, economics, and civil eng. and got into one of the best grad programs in econ in the whole country (no through AA this time but through my merits) but I need that chance just like others who use AA not as a crutch but as an opportunity. We can compete with all races some of us just need that opportunity.
Comment by edub — 11.14.06 @ 11:53 am
LaShawn, if you don’t say it, who will? Star Parker, maybe, but she can’t do it by herself. People such as I can’t, at least not effectively. I’m a white male, and therefore presumed to be a racist by the people who most need to hear and ultimately believe your message. It can’t be Bill Cosby or Juan Williams, either. They both have levels of income which make a lot of black people think those two have forgotten their roots, and have chosen to leave the brothers behind. So be calm and happy only about 23 hours per day, okay?
Comment by Dave — 11.14.06 @ 12:43 pm
The liberals are the party of the uninitiated. “We will speak for you, feed you, house you, cloth you, educate you, provide health care for you (Hillary care)and protect you from evil Republicans.” I can go on but I’ll let the Democrat friendly, Spiegel Online continue:
The Democrats — traditionally not unlike a large umbrella — are the party more accustomed to balancing a wide range of interests. They are the party of minorities, of gays, blacks, environmentalists and illegal immigrants, as well as a stronghold for opponents of the war and proponents of the welfare state.
Party of the Illegals…ILLEGALS. Need I say more?
Comment by Right Snipe — 11.14.06 @ 12:49 pm
La Shawn, do what you feel you must to help your blood pressure, sanity, and peace of mind, but know that I have always appreciated your point of view. You express what I think more often than not, and even when you don’t, I can appreciate your point of view and see where you’re coming from.
Comment by Tyrian Purple — 11.14.06 @ 12:59 pm
No one should have their blood pressure rise over an issue. However, to stop fighting for, maybe the word should be asserting, your point of view is not an option.
Comment by rick — 11.14.06 @ 1:02 pm
So the question remains: Should individuals who are truly qualified, regardless of race, be denied admission to any college or university, so that others who are truly un-qualifed be allowed to do so?
Edub, while your story is nice, chances are you would have found away to get into some college and probably would have been just as successful WITHOUT AA. Why? Becuase you have motivation and work ethic, and are probably smarter than you think - not becuase you have to rely on AA.
The fact is, the numbers clearly show that AA entrants into elite colleges and university graduate at a much lower rate than non-AA entrants. Denying opportunities to those who truly deserve it so only a few of those undeserving can have the opportunities doesn’t make much sense and will make this nation far less competitive in the future.
How are we going to deal with other countries that don’t implement AA and allow only the best and brightest to develop the technologies that will determine the world power of the future?
One question: Let’s say, God forbid, you need a major surgery. Do you want a surgeon who barely graduated medical school and only got admitted becuase of AA or a surgeon who was duly qualified in the first place?
Comment by Niah — 11.14.06 @ 1:08 pm
If you want your blood to boil, consider this. The Republian party is apparently picking Martinez from Florida to head the RNC. Martinez will also keep his senate seat. Now the best part, Martinez was co-sponsor of the Senate Immigration (amnesty) bill. This day, this woman, officially becomes an Independent.
Comment by dianne — 11.14.06 @ 1:12 pm
I also don’t see cause for alarm in merit-based rules. I don’t see it because the elite universities aren’t the only game in town for under-qualified students. There are always community colleges, which can do an excellent job of getting the student up to speed. And, some of those ccs have relationships with four-year universities so that the student going there can be reassured that he is being set on the right track. If a student wants to go to a more elite school that they haven’t been prepared to go to, I see no reason why they can’t pick a good cc first. If they’re in a lousy K-12 system they also have the option of outside help from Kumon and Sylvan. There are even textbooks you can buy from home school companies, like Singapore math. That last option is actually one that kids at decent schools should consider exercising as well, from what I’ve seen. Using lowered standards to help black kids in awful schools doesn’t have to be the first option, and it certainly isn’t their best option.
Comment by Tyrian Purple — 11.14.06 @ 1:24 pm
Lashawn,
You may have this calming thing going on; however, I am sure you will not go p.c. on us. I love your blog.
Comment by John — 11.14.06 @ 1:32 pm
Shade - “I think that this is flawed. A black person who pushes to go to a prestigious university apparently feels that he or she can compete there. In universities, even if the standards for admissions for blacks are lowered, the curriculum standards aren’t. What you end up with are blacks who may not be prepared for those places, but who feel that they can adjust and make it despite. These are people who are ambitious enough to want the Ivy League school on their resumes and are confident enough to try and compete at those schools despite being seemingly not prepared. If they feared that they could not hang in there with the white and Asian students, I doubt that they would make the attempt.”
Your statement about this being flawed? Its flawed.
If a person is ambitious enough to want the Ivy League school on their resume, they should be ambitious enough and work hard enough to truly qualify for that institution. There is no “seemingly qualified” to it.
The point is that any institution that has exceedingly high standards for admission, employment, team membership, etc. has a right to set these standards and maintain these standards and not have them co-opted by an anyone who feels that the standards should be lowered to include those who do not qualify.
In a specific case of Michigan Law school a few years back, some less qualified were admitted and some more qualified were not. In this day and age….your qualifications speak to your capabilities. I read this and thought to myself, If I was on trial, do I want someone defending me who was admitted to a program based upon their race or gender? Or do I want the best person you can find (Blk, Wht, Asian or other?) to win the case for me?
Any person can train themselves to be physically the best at a sport, then be rewarded for it. Olympics, Triathalon, NHL, NBA, NFL…..all take physical performance beyond that of your everyday person. We look at those people and admire them for being the best in their sport. We reward them, put them up on pedestals. Those most qualified are rewarded. Can you rightfully say that there should be a secondary admission process to allow those less qualified still make the team? If so would they be rewarded? The people on these teams have no doubt that they can compete on physical and mental ability.
The bottom line? Hold yourself to exceedingly high standards. Be the best you can be. You will find that once you do this, affirmative action becomes irrelevant.
My son and daughter will not enter any institution or place of employment through the back door, as if allowed in by someone who knows they are not supposed to be there but lets them in anyway. No, my children will walk through the front door. Shoulder to shoulder with the other people who have qualified no matter what race, gender, or creed they are.
Comment by SlimDeli — 11.14.06 @ 1:41 pm
Affirmative Action doesn’t create a leveled playing field. How can people cry about equality in one breath yet support a policy that promotes the polar opposite. Besides I don’t want to find out that the only reason I was hired was to satisfy some government mandate on race quotas. I want to be hired based on the sole fact that I was the best person for the job. If a co worker comes to me and says “The only reason you were hired was because of the color of your black”, how should I respond to that? Think about it.
Comment by Tyrone — 11.14.06 @ 1:52 pm
If state employee and UM president Mary Sue Coleman (see the column) gives the state trouble about race preferences at her school, perhaps people should illustrate the point by boycotting the university’s sports programs, starting with the the football and basketball teams, until they implement race preferences.
There are unwritten race preference practices in college and professional athletics. I pointed this out on another thread and linked to an article about it.
Comment by Shade — 11.14.06 @ 1:57 pm
If a co worker comes to me and says “The only reason you were hired was because of the color of your blackâ€, how should I respond to that? Think about it.
Resign.
Comment by Shade — 11.14.06 @ 1:59 pm
If you think affirmative action in this country is out of control, check out Malaysia–there’s a lot of it in favor of Malays, and talented Chinese people just have to deal with it. One Chinese guy even told me that if Malays didn’t get affirmative action, they wouldn’t be able to achieve anything, but I think that he was just trying to rationalize the unfair situation.
Comment by mj — 11.14.06 @ 2:04 pm
SlimDeli
First of all, I disputed the notion that AA was supported by some blacks due to fear of competition when logically, it would be because of an inflated perception of the ability to compete. In other words, if a black person didn’t believe him or herself capable of functioning at Harvard, he or she would not attend (as is the case for the majority of blacks who attend non-prestigious schools). Period. I made no statement attempting to justify this mindset nor defend AA, so why do you respond to things not stated?
Second, failing to meet standards does not mean lack of ambition. Has it occurred that there are people who don’t meet standards despite working as hard as they can? Some people who work hard will still fall short. One would gather that it would be smart for that person to drop their ambitions a step down, yet when folks have a dream, rational thought doesn’t often come into play. But it is NOT because they fear competition, but rather because of an inflated sense of what they can do and a dream. So they step into that fire and hope for the best.
Comment by Shade — 11.14.06 @ 2:26 pm
Tyrian Purple #19.
There are likewise plenty of Universities that are not prestigious, so community colleges are not the only alternatives. Some small colleges around my area like Lamar University, Stephen F. Austin Univ., Sam Houston State, Prairie View, Texas Southern, etc. are schools that most competent students can easily get into. Even the University of Houston is not hard to get into.
Comment by Shade — 11.14.06 @ 2:45 pm
What about if standards are not lowered? For example. I attended Georgetown. White people liked to say that we all (black people) got there because of affirmative action. In most of your lines of reasoning, any black person in a good job or at a good school got there because of race and they were under qualified. I take offense to that. At GU we had a program called community scholars. That I admit and know was a race preference program because they had to take courses during the summer and throughout the first year to catch up. I was not a community scholar. I had a great GPA (from a nationally recognized public school and good SAT scores. So did I get in because I was black or because I qualified? I am also a woman and I am Catholic so is it one or all three that helped me get in.
As I asked in another topic, do people only hate race preferential quotas or other types as well. Should women, gays, the rich etc, get accepted when they don’t qualify?
What about whites at historically black institutions? They have programs to insure that whites because they are a minority are represented on campus. Are the qualifications lowered for them too? Or is it just a quota system. Is it ok? Is it the quota aspect that bothers people or is it the lowering of the qualifications. What if they came up with a program that says you must hire or accept a certain number of ____ but only if they meet the standards. Would that be ok?
I am not for lowering the standards for anybody but I think there there is more than just race preferencing that goes on but people seem to only have a problem with racial preferencing.
Finally, I am a teacher in Baltimore City. When families value hard work and education, the students do better, even in under performing schools. The schools have their problems but the reason that most of these children are left behind and don’t qualify for much is because of their home lives. In many subject areas we teach the same curriculum as other districts that are successful. In those places the parents care about education. Think about it, for centuries people were not privy to the abundance of things we have now but they at least learned how to read, write and do math. Many urban students can’t do those things. Learning starts at home. There is evidence that much of your ability to keep up in school is determined by the time you are four years old. These children hear less words spoken by the time they get to school than your average middle class family. They are not read to they are not engaged to learn. Their only structure comes from school. Parents treat the teachers like the enemy and many will admit that they send the children to school for someone to babysit them while they work or even stay at home. Others have said that their children are street smart so they don’t need school. If your parents or caregivers undervalue education there is not much that a teacher can do but try and most of us do. (You can lead a horse to water…)Simply having the money is not what drives us to go to school to get threatened, cursed out and disrespected everyday. Most of us want to try to make a difference. It is a lack of values from home(life, education, you name it) that causes many of these children to fail.
Heather
Comment by Heather in MD — 11.14.06 @ 2:48 pm
Shade 27, absolutely. I was thinking more in terms of kids who are truly behind in fundamental ways. I don’t want them to stay left behind, so my community college point was meant in the sense of rescuing them. Not only that, but I also think that sometimes some “generic” colleges can actually be the better choice than the “brand name” colleges depending on what you study, too, which is another reason I don’t think people should get hung up on the big-name colleges. They just aren’t always the only game in town.
Comment by Tyrian Purple — 11.14.06 @ 3:00 pm
#17, I don’t know about that. Given my high school profile, I would have been enrolled in a community college. AA assisted in that BU gave me a chance. Trust me, had I been white I would not have gotten in, not by a long shot.
My point was not about self glorification but I wanted to bring across the fact that there is a large chunk of black students who do benefit from AA for the “right” reasons. There are many of us who come from failing schools, surround ourselves with unmotivated peers, are first generation college bound students, etc.. who, on paper, don’t stand a chance when you stack us up with whites or asians, however once given that chance we can be among the best.
My results are not atypical, not by a long shot. I saw, as a teacher, many students who are far superior in knowledge than I ever was at that age unfortunately for them, their profiles are, on paper, sub-par. AA’s beauty comes in giving those students a chance they would otherwise not have.
Comment by edub — 11.14.06 @ 3:16 pm
#25 mj - That’s exactly why my family left Malaysia years ago. People here complain about how “oppressed” they are, but their gripes pale in comparison. Everything in Malaysia is gov’t sanctioned to slant in favor of Malays, and there’s no tiptoeing around it or mincing words about it. If you’re not Malay, you’re second class, period.
Comment by FL Mom — 11.14.06 @ 3:42 pm
Heather, your comments sum up very nicely some of the reasons why I’m sitting here going over a stack of private school brochures and applications. Our son currently attends a Baltimore City public school, and I’m not really sure I want him to continue on. This part of your post really hit home with me:
Parents treat the teachers like the enemy and many will admit that they send the children to school for someone to babysit them while they work or even stay at home.
It hit home because I see it every day when I’m standing in the cafeteria at morning drop-off. I constantly ask myself — is this the environment I want my son to be in day after day?
More and more, I’m finding that the answer is no.
Comment by Carol — 11.14.06 @ 4:43 pm
“I am very much in favor of revamping AA to reflect a person’s socio-economic background because class division is the real elephant in the room that no one is talking about.”
Not really. This “revamping” has already happened in federal contracting and at the university of California. Instead of minority it’s now “disadvantaged.” So now applicants to UC write ridiculous essays trying to prove themselves Underprivileged but Promising.
It’s all a game anymore. And it’s gotten so I don’t trust anything I hear or read about blacks because AA has skewed everything so much. It creates racism where there was none.
Comment by cassandra — 11.14.06 @ 4:47 pm
In response to you “defending white people” comment: what about poor white people? I know white people who grew up very poor and had the brains but not the money or environment to help them. Meanwhile, I worked in a program where moneyed black people got into a program cuz of their skin color.
Comment by mj — 11.14.06 @ 5:06 pm
i hope that calming influence means you will be tying the knot soon with another brother in faith.
good luck
Comment by Kit Manville — 11.14.06 @ 5:26 pm
Cassandra -
I’m sure you judge every black person on their own merits, RIGHT?
Somehow I seriously doubt that.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 11.14.06 @ 6:25 pm
Lashawn, I love your blog by the way, you inspire me greatly! Keep up the excellent work!!
Comment by edub — 11.14.06 @ 6:32 pm
don’t give up, lashawn. your cause is just and noble; what you say is the truth; and the truth - when at last it’s heard - will set free those currently in chains. i’m not much of a bible guy, but i do know the good lord tests those who would tell the truth. in politics, churchill, reagan, and thatcher all had to wander the wilderness alone for a long time before anyone listened. in religion, well,…you know.
my pop once told me of a saying by an old-time texas ranger, back when they were real live legends instead of tv characters: “a good man who thinks he’s right and just keeps coming is a hard man to bring down.”
don’t let them win.
Comment by ed — 11.14.06 @ 8:18 pm
Long time reader, first time poster.
First off, let me say that I think that AA can and should go away. After all, “if being twice as good” is what black folk need to be so that they may be given half the chance, I say effort to be “twice as good”; EMBRACE IT! and force them to shut the heck up! At least then, you will know that you earned your way, even if all of your co-workers didn’t.
We all know that this Merit argument is bunk from the door. Merit, quite often is applied situationally. Consider the number of folk that get their positions/opportunities based on whom they happened to have married, was born to, or know. In my place of work, almost half the folk in management were brought on by those means. Granted, i realize my workplace does not represent
ALL workplaces, but i am willing to bet that it is a pretty fair representation. “Minimum qualifications” are often waived based on DNA.
Lastly, folk to often restrict their framing of this AA argument in the context that black folk are unfairly benefiting overwhelmingly. The white politicians, liberal and conservative alike are playing us all. AA is not being allowed to continue because of some graciousness on the part of white politicians that give a darn about black folks situation/condition, it continues primarily because white folk want it to. How so?…you say! Because white folk benefit too from AA. As a matter of fact, I suspect that white folk benefit from AA significantly more than black folk. My rationale you ask? People tend to conveniently leave out the fact that women (that includes white women) too are eligible for AA. White women, more times than not marry white men, thus they benefit. White men open businesses in the name of the white woman that they are married to using AA as a avenue; again, they benefit. By the way, white folks produce all of the White kids…need I continue? Nevertheless, I don’t blame them for gaming the system - I would do the same. Just providing fodder for my suspicion of the politicians.
For the guy concerned that folk may assume him/her to not belong, I say handle your business and outperform. Prove them wrong, hold your head high and know that you belong, even if they don’t.
Comment by Benjamin — 11.14.06 @ 8:43 pm
Don’t give up on us yet LaShawn!
I’m speaking as a poor black woman that had to drop out of college ( long story) and eventually had a daughter before finally returning this semester and I agree with everything that you say. In fact, it was the situation that I had gotten myself into that precipitated my acceptance of the fact that statist-liberalism is horrible for African Americans and pretty much everybody. After reading some books and thinking long and hard about it I came to the conclusion that I could no longer support affirmative action and all those other policies designed by liberals to help blacks but instead keep them enslaved mentally if not physically.
I told my brother-currently in one of the best schools in the nation and working on an MBA/M.Arch degree that I couldn’t vote for liberal policies anymore and would start voting for more classical liberal/libertarian politicians (translation:the Republicans) and his response was to ask, “But what have the Republicans done for you?”
It’s statements like that that let me see what people like yourself are up against but don’t lose faith. If someone like me can come around then there is hope for other black people too.
Comment by SmartBlkWoman — 11.14.06 @ 9:47 pm
Benjamin, interesting comments :).
However, I take issue with this one… not through numbers because you’re probably right… but because of a personal experience with AA.
“…Lastly, folk too often restrict their framing of this AA argument in the context that black folk are unfairly benefiting overwhelmingly. The white politicians, liberal and conservative alike are playing us all.”
This came about because AA was originally FOR black people, and other groups were added in later. But black people ALSO have the attitude that THEY should benefit above and beyond everyone else in the “protected” groups.
I am a white woman who competed for a promotion against four black men. I got the job. The next thing I knew, I was virtually blacklisted by those four black men. They wouldn’t talk to me at all, and muttered about me behind my back. Why? Because every one of them had presumed that one of them would get the job because of AA. In fact, they were griping because they believed that I, as a woman, had gotten the position through AA, and that was beyond tolerance.
It took a “leak” of the vital piece of information that I had 10 more years of job experience than my nearest competitor to shut them up, and that I did not use AA at all. I did not even claim disabled veteran’s preference, which I am entitled to by something I actually did, not a condition I inherited.
But the attitude that a black man should have gotten a job over a white woman, even though we both qualified for AA, lit a fire under me about this.
After that, when a position in my area comes open, I make darned sure that I hire the best qualififed candidate for the job, regardless of race, sex, religion, or AA status. And if I hear of any griping about it… it’s noted and asked about. I won’t let that crap hang around my shop.
Comment by mamapajamas — 11.14.06 @ 9:49 pm
To me, a great deal of the commentary has focused on one avenue to achieve affirmative action…different standards for admittance, etc.
While lowered admission standards are problematic on many levels,
(notwithstanding stories such as edub’s), there are other means to achieve affirmative action that are far more positive. These involve extended outreach to those who have had limited opportunities, extended opportunities for training and remediation, extensive mentoring, and an array of expanded educational opportunities (music lesson?).
Bringing people up to meet (or exceed) the level is so much more positive than lowering the level to meet the people.
As to Heather’s comments: “As I asked in another topic, do people only hate race preferential quotas or other types as well.” Have you ever heard the vitriolic comments about different standards for women fireman (just one example)on this blog? Of course it bothers folks to have other types of preferences. However, to be realistic, posters are commenting on the subject matter that is presented here by LaShawn which is often oriented to race issues.
Comment by jan — 11.14.06 @ 10:09 pm
mamapajamas
But you now know how black people feel when post like this paint us all as Affirmative Action cases.
Like I said, when an employer is willing to dump your application because your name sounds black, we will still have affirmative action.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2463266&page=1
Comment by Zakia — 11.14.06 @ 10:26 pm
Besides I don’t want to find out that the only reason I was hired was to satisfy some government mandate on race quotas.
At the end of the day, I don’t care. All opportunities I get, it’s up to me to take advantage of. If it is through AA, a “hook up”, a random event, or sending out resumes, the end result is the same. I’m in a spot and it’s up to me to succeed or fail. The opportunities I received, possibly thru AA, all provided the foundation for me to be where I’m at today and perform at the level which I perform at today. The experience has been invaluable.
I dated a woman who was a college recruiter. I met her on a few of her recruiting trips. On one trip she had dinner with other Black recruiters during the college recruiting season. They told their tales of fighting for Black students to get into the school when they were just as qualified or “unqualified” as white students. She struggled with the choice to stay at the college or move on just because she knew that she was the only advocate in the admissions process that Black students had, regardless of their capabilities.
She told me she frequently had to justify adding new schools, majority minority schools, to the list of schools to recruit. If the school provided few or no applications, the other admissions officers wanted to end recruiting at those schools. Yet, majority white schools that produced little or no applications for years were still on the recruiting list.
If a co worker comes to me and says “The only reason you were hired was because of the color of your blackâ€, how should I respond to that?
Don’t. I’d laugh. And then when I’m supervising him, remind him of his comment. Been there, done that.
It creates racism where there was none.
It was there, it’s just an excuse. If not that one, something else. But as long as it doesn’t impact my economic progress or my kid, I don’t fret about someone elses problem.
This came about because AA was originally FOR black people, and other groups were added in later.
Actually, white women were added to AA from the start, otherwise the politicians wouldn’t let it pass.
Comment by DarkStar — 11.14.06 @ 10:30 pm
Like I said, when an employer is willing to dump your application because your name sounds black, we will still have affirmative action.
And there you have it.
But anti-AA types NEVER mention it.
Comment by DarkStar — 11.14.06 @ 10:31 pm
Affirmative Action should be so much more than a lowering of standards which is problematic at best, notwithstanding amazing stories such as the one that edub expressed. At its best, AA should represent extended outreach, mentoring,intensive remediation, and enhanced educational opportunities.
Lowering standards to meet the people is far easier than raising people to meet (or exceed) the standards (which is probably why it is done).
Comment by jan — 11.14.06 @ 10:52 pm
Like I said, when an employer is willing to dump your application because your name sounds black, we will still have affirmative action.
Or black people could be smart enough to start their own businesses. Why is the alternative to a white person dropping your application in the garbage because they don’t like your name for you to start asking for help via AA?
There are too many black people raising their kids with a “go out and get a job” mentality and not enough raising their kids to go out and create jobs.
If every white person in America woke up tomorrow and said they would no longer sell, buy from, or employ another black person, blacks would be screwed.
Comment by SmartBlkWoman — 11.14.06 @ 10:53 pm
LaShawn; I must join the long line of those who not only appreciate your efforts but feel that there is a NEED for people like you. When white people talk about the pathology in the black community we are branded racists and our points are dismissed wholecloth. Examples are:
Bill Cosby; when he said things that whites have been saying about education, family, out of wedlock birth, single parent households, ridiculous names for kids, personal responsibility, etc… people took notice. They did very little, but they took notice.
In the Duke LAX case,when people saw the exculpatory evidence and heard whites reporting it, it was easily dismissed. People took notice when the second stripper and the black LAX player spoke out against the hoax.
I feel that only black people can fix the black community. Blacks will not tolerate whites telling them what they are doing wrong (fair enough). A proud and eloquent woman like yourself can do more for blacks that an army of well meaning whites.
BTW; caught you on MSNBC…..YOURE A STAR BABY!
Comment by john harland — 11.14.06 @ 10:57 pm
There are too many black people raising their kids with a “go out and get a job†mentality and not enough raising their kids to go out and create jobs.
While true, this is the case for the majority of people in America.
Comment by DarkStar — 11.14.06 @ 11:05 pm
Ann Coulter has an interesting Chapter in her book “Godless” –Chapter 7, where she quotes from another book that came out (1994?) The Bell Curve.
Anyway, the Bell Curve talks about Blacks not having as high IQs as Whites.
(Maybe this has all been discussed, here, before)
I was really struck by Ann’s take on all this lower IQ business.
What she suggested is that Whites, at least conservative Whites, don’t think they’re special because of high IQs. That, what makes people “special” if at all….is that they are children of God. —No matter what your IQ, you were created in God’s image even so. That God created varying IQs is meaningless, what matters is morality.
I was really struck by that.
I don’t know if I believe the IQ differences theory though—I haven’t read the ‘Bell Curve’.
I often wonder about this whole “IQ” business, and whether or not “IQ” takes into account judgment and morality, all of which seem independent of IQ.
Comment by Glamchild — 11.15.06 @ 12:41 am
Since we’re talking affirmative action here, allow me to share a short anecdote. Your response’s are welcomed.
The story is about an ailing businessman/father who decided to turn over his auto dealership to his two sons. Although the father had 3 children, 2 boys and a girl, at the time of his decision to turn over his business he believed that his daughter would be incapable of handling the rigors of the business. Yet he insisted that the boys “allow” their sister to participate in the day-to-day operations (basically, “work for them”).
Several years went by, and through God’s good grace, the father made a moderate recovery from his illness. Over those years the brothers had expanded and grown the one-car-line dealership into four.
The father, who had been observing the growth and had work of his three children, realized that his daughter had become an integral part of the business. Believing he had made a mistake by not giving his daughter an active (on paper/legal ownership) role in the business, he advised his sons to relinquish part of their share’s to the sister.
Needless to say, his son’s did not take kindly to giving up part of what they believed was built by their hard work. The father pointed out to them that he watched as the sister made the exact same efforts and sacrifices as did his sons and that he believed she was “entitled” to a fair share of the business. He told them it was his mistake for not “including” the daughter when signing over his smaller dealership.
In seeing that his sons were totally defiant in insisting that the sister should not be “entitled” to an equal share, the father re-wrote his will to include “special” business options for his daughter at the time of his death.
The father passed away some time ago. And since that time the court battles between the sister and the brothers continue.
How does this story relate to AA?
View the father as pre-civil-rights era America offering opportunity to a “selected” few while denying others. View the son’s as those who were given that opportunity and used it to prosper and grow. View the daughter as those who were denied opportunity, yet worked hard in spite of being considered “second class.” View the animosity caused by the father (realizing his wrong and the attempt to right the wrong), as the reaction of those who presently believe AA is reverse discrimination.
Is daughter entitled to an equal share of the business? After all, she is the businessman’s child as are her sibling brothers. Are those who were not allowed opportunity during the growth of America entitled an equal share? Should they be given “special” treatment because America made a mistake?
The court battles continue…..
Comment by P. Anthony Allen — 11.15.06 @ 4:33 am
“Blacks will not tolerate whites telling them what they are doing wrong (fair enough). ”
How are ‘blacks’ a ‘group’?
Do you just mean the self-segregating blacks (like the self-segregating ‘whites’) or just ‘blacks’ in general?
Who are these ‘blacks’?
Comment by JohnD — 11.15.06 @ 7:27 am
Actually, regarding black names: Does anyone here think that Billy Bob has an equal chance as Robert to get a job at Merrill Lynch? If you want a brain surgeon, do you put your trust in a Buffy or an Elizabeth? I think Elizabeth has the edge. Now, I knew an actual Buffy, and she was studying to be a psychologist. She was just a nice white girl from Kansas. She acknowledged, when I asked, that her first name might impede her career, because we all have images of Buffy, and all of them involve a low-IQ bimbo type (when the name doesn’t inspire thoughts of a Valley Girl vampire slayer, anyway).
Names tend to connote class and education levels of the parents, and names associated with low-status people can put the bearers of those names at a disadvantage. That’s the way it is. So as in the first example, people usually don’t want to put their financial future in the hands of someone whose name conjures up images of a backwoods hick who marries his cousin, so Billy Bob knows he’s gotta change his name. Billy Bob might be a better financial planner than his arch-nemesis Robert, but no one will believe that if they only know his name. As long as he goes by Billy Bob instead of William Robert he will have to be twice as good just to get his foot in the door. It’s not fair to Billy Bob, but them’s the breaks.
Similarly, I’m pretty sure a black chick named Alexis is going to have an easier time getting certain jobs than a black chick named Alexus (like the car). People are going to look at the second name and figure “Jerry Springer stock; her parents were illiterate and thought the name was spelled like the car.” It’s not fair to Alexus, but them’s the breaks.
Names mean things to people, all people, regardless of race, and while the parents might see the names as a nice collection of syllables, others might not. In this country names seem to fall in and out of favor according to the generations, so I have never met a young girl named Agnes who was not European, for example, and a young lady named Agnes here is probably not going to be thought of as prom queen material no matter how pretty she is. A Seymour knows he will get a beat-down on the playground. Black names that sound “ghetto” (like Shanaynay) are not the only names carrying liabilities.
Comment by Tyrian Purple — 11.15.06 @ 9:04 am
“Blacks will not tolerate whites telling them what they are doing wrong (fair enough). â€
In many ways, this is human nature. Criticism is a touchy thing because it is easily perceived as an attack and such a perception tends to promote a defensive stance. Also, criticism from those within your group is much more acceptable than criticism from outsiders. That is why you don’t have non-alcoholics participating in AA meetings.
Despite what many may believe, Bill Cosby gets at least as many positive responses from blacks as he gets negative responses and probably more positive responses. The key to Cosby is that he appears to be talking to black people as opposed to talking about black people. He addresses black audiences.
When people embrace Murray and others who promote the idea of that blacks are genetically less intelligent, they lose out right then. I can’t see how anyone cannot see the insult in telling someone something that in essence proclaims a group as being innately closer to animal than any other group; basically telling folks that them and their loved ones have smaller brains and are part of the dumbest group on Earth. That is exactly what is being said and black people are smart enough see that through all of the jargon.
Comment by Shade — 11.15.06 @ 9:51 am
Shade; That was exactly my point about whites not being able to affect change in the black community. The same can be said when a black guy starts rambling about how whites are “this way, or that”. To be honest, I dont listen closely. People like LaShawn are the only people that can cause blacks (and by “blacks, I mean African-Americans that exhibit these pathologies, lets not get touchy) to take a serious look at their own behavior that has contributed to their position.
LaShawn is eloquent and speaks with gravitas with regard to issues in the black community. To have someone like this beaten down by the race hucksters would be a tragedy. Not a tragedy for me, Im white, male and well-off. what she says about race doesnt effect me in the least. It is the black community who is best served by her honest discourse, yet it seems to be (according to her) only black people who are trying to shame her into silence.
PLEASE DONT LET IT HAPPEN LASHAWN. Too much is riding on it.
Comment by john harland — 11.15.06 @ 11:37 am
Someone mentioned IQ. IQ has got to be the most badly abused measure of intelligence in existence.
Look at the history of the construct, and you’ll see that Binet developed it to figure out which children might need help in school. It was NEVER intended to measure the high end of intelligence or assess how “smart” someone is.
Unfortunately, due to some theoretial ambiguity and a little misinterpretation, IQ as the end-all measure of human intelligence made its way into the public unconscious.
There’s still a LOT of active debate on this topic amongst psychologists. Many favor IQ and its derivatives - it’s called “G” these days (for general intelligence). The idea here is that intelligence is a single, simple construct that’s easy to measure.
Others (myself included) favor research by Howard Garnder, who proposes a very different view of intelligence. I won’t try to explain it, since I think others have done a much better job:
http://www.infed.org/thinkers/gardner.htm
Comment by Joseph D — 11.15.06 @ 11:37 am
Tyrian, the name shouldn’t matter. My name “sounds” like a black name, It is Zakia. It is neither ghetto nor made-up. I shouldn’t have to have a European/Euro-American/Or “Christian” sounding name for an interviewer to look at an identical resume as a person with the name Mary and assume (Even with identical qualifications) that I’m some ghetto ignorant black person. Tyrone is a “black” sounding name according to pop culture but is actually a French, Southern Euro -American, first name and surname. A parent shouldn’t have to give their childn a name for the sole purpose some ignornant prejudiced person will assume something about them.
SmartBlackWoman
You have to be employed in order to eventually become an employer. I don’t know any white person, black person, hispanic, whatever, who hasn’t come from money or had people with money backing them that hasn’t worked for someone else at some point in their lives before eventually becoming their own boss. Not that it doesn’t exist, but I’m sure its not the majority of the population who are employers and not employees. I don’t see your point. And regardless of who the employer is, it makes no difference. Black Employers should not throw away qualified resumes based on the presumption that the name on the resume is a white person, same vice versa. And further more employers of any color look at a name that seems like the person might be black and tosses the qualified resume based on that alone. They’ve been testing this for years.
Comment by Zakia — 11.15.06 @ 11:43 am
Although some here have dismissed the idea, one of the most pernicious aspects of AA is that minority applicants with lower qualifications are “promoted to their level of incompetence”. A student who would flourish in the engineering school at Kansas State instead goes to MIT and fails.
The fact is that the elite institutions maintain their reputations by setting their standards so high that most people, regardless of their ethnicity, can’t cut it. In the case of the white heterosexual anglophone male (WHAM) applicants, they aren’t allowed to fail at the elite level, and instead get the chance to succeed on a lower tier.
True, a few people playing above their heads manage to make it, and become poster children for AA. No one ever looks at the far larger number who end up in blue collar occupations cursing how they’re being kept down by The Man, while their WHAM counterparts earn a nice living off that KSU engineering degree.
Comment by The Monster — 11.15.06 @ 12:45 pm
Zakia, the point I was trying to get across by using examples like “Billy Bob” and “Buffy” is that black people are not the only one who can have “liability names”. The fact is, all names are considered status markers. It’s not fair, as I said repeatedly, but that’s how it is.
I remember talking with a business editor once about names women can and can’t have if they want to make it in the business world, and she expressed surprise that Carly Fiorina had made it to CEO of Hewlett-Packard because of her name. Certain ultra-feminine names are simply a liability in the business world. No “Ambers,” no “Kristys.” I strongly suspect that as she was coming up in the business world, Carly Fiorina went by her full name of Carlton. It sounds like a man’s name, and on a woman it may even seem upper class. Do you think we would have heard of her at all if she was called Sally May or Jean-Louise?
A person doesn’t have to have a European name, as a blonde, blue-eyed Jean-Louise could tell you when her resume gets pitched at brokerage firm. Their name can be ethnic as all get out, and in certain fields it might even help. I’ll bet Sita Srinivasan’s resume gets looked at faster in the IT department (or hospital looking for a doctor) than Buffy Sutton’s ever will. Now if Buffy wanted to be a manicurist or a wedding planner, then her name can be an asset, perhaps.
Even having a mundane name, or a “Euro name” if you like, won’t help if the spelling is unorthodox and one spelling is considered low class. “Tiffany” versus “Tiffani” for example.
It doesn’t matter that Tyrone just got off the boat from France if people associate his name with low status. Tyrone can be black or white. The point is the status of his name. A blog somewhere mentioned the peculiar prevalence of criminals with the middle name of Wayne, and everyone noted that”Wayne,” is considered a trailer park name, and I think you will find more white men with that name than black men.
A black man named Carlton or a black man named Tyrone, one name has a better status association than the other, even if Carlton is a high school drop out and Tyrone studied Greek and Latin at Harvard.
It’s that way everywhere. I know of no place you can go where names don’t signal status. There’s a classic study somewhere about the Ashanti Africans and how they think about people with certain “day names.” There’s a reference to it here
http://pregnancy.parenthood.com/articles.html?article_id=713. It says everything I’m saying. There are even some countries out there that don’t even let the parents pick any name that isn’t on their approved lists because of that factor. If you’ve ever seen Triple X with Vin Diesel, note that the actress with him, Asia Argento, was not allowed to have Asia as her first name because it wasn’t a standard name in Italy. Fairness has nothing to do with it. It’s all about the perception people have with that name. Someone might be willing to take a chance investing with Robert, as I said in the first example, but fear looking a fool if something went wrong and Billy Bob lost their money. They know good and well that people will immediately wonder why they ever trusted their money to someone named Billy Bob. That’s just how it is.
Comment by Tyrian Purple — 11.15.06 @ 1:23 pm
Weds. mid-day links
Press lies about war, 1964. NeoneoWealthy countries have more trees, and thus remove more evil evil CO2/ WorstallPayback to the unions. Good bye, Free Trade. Hello, higher prices. Samiz.Just asking: How does a young politican afford a $1.6 million house,
Trackback by Maggie's Farm — 11.15.06 @ 1:24 pm
Original comment: There are too many black people raising their kids with a “go out and get a job†mentality and not enough raising their kids to go out and create jobs.
DarkStar replied:While true, this is the case for the majority of people in America.
Just because everyone is doing it doesn’t make it right. Upper-class people are raising their children to start companies, be self-employed, or attain high paying positions while middle and lower class folks tell their kids to go get a job. This is one of the main differences between the classes. Of course everyone can’t be self-employed but that’s not the point.
Comment by Zakia: You have to be employed in order to eventually become an employer.
No you don’t. I know plenty of people who have been self-employed since they were about 18 or 19. My sister is a hair-stylist who dropped out of college and at one point started her own salong and was making 6 figures a year with no college degree. Her husband, who also dropped out of college started his own barber college. There are plenty of self-employed people who have either taken over the family business or started a business of their own and there are numerous government programs just for people who want to start businesses but don’t have the funds.
I don’t know any white person, black person, hispanic, whatever, who hasn’t come from money or had people with money backing them that hasn’t worked for someone else at some point in their lives before eventually becoming their own boss.Not that it doesn’t exist, but I’m sure its not the majority of the population who are employers and not employees. I don’t see your point.
Just because you don’t know them doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. The study said that it is harder to get a job with an ethnic sounding name, not impossible. There are plenty of black folks with names who are employed, although they may have had to fill out a lot of job applications to get that job. Furthermore, there is always volunteer work if someone just can’t get a job in any other way.
Black Employers should not throw away qualified resumes based on the presumption that the name on the resume is a white person, same vice versa.And further more employers of any color look at a name that seems like the person might be black and tosses the qualified resume based on that alone. They’ve been testing this for years.
They shouldn’t throw the apps away but why waste time begging to be hired by someone that doesn’t like your name when you can continue to job hunt and get hired by someone more concerned with your qualifications? I’m not interested in begging to be around people that don’t want me around.
If this sort of behavior has been around by employers for years and it hasn’t changed yet then don’t you think it’s time to stop exclusively focusing on it and work on other areas to achieve parity?
Comment by SmartBlkWoman — 11.15.06 @ 3:31 pm
#53, I’m sure you’ve heard about Ron Fryer, an economist and professor at Harvard. He’s written papers about the economic implications of “black” names. He also has lots of other amazing stuff. I think you shoud check out his stuff. There was an excellent article about him in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/magazine/20HARVARD.html?ex=1268974800&en=e9727ddcbbbd4431&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland
AMAZING!!!!
Comment by edub — 11.15.06 @ 3:44 pm
Wow. Thank you for the post. The more blogs I read in this vein, the more people I see who are truly interested in acting to improve the ‘common good’. The ‘critic’ who wrote to complain about you ‘defending white folks’ is a hypocrite. He would probably be one of the first to screech about ‘racism’ if he weren’t treated preferentially.
Comment by april — 11.15.06 @ 7:38 pm
Upper-class people are raising their children to start companies, be self-employed, or attain high paying positions while middle and lower class folks tell their kids to go get a job.
Now you are using class, which is a different argument.
If I want to induldge in class stereotypes, it’s the parents who started companies who bring in their kids to run the companies the parents started. That’s a different dynamic.
Of course everyone cant be self-employed but thats not the point.
Actually, it is the point because your statement made it appear as if all Blacks should be self-employed.
Comment by DarkStar — 11.15.06 @ 9:50 pm
Heather: In most of your lines of reasoning, any black person in a good job or at a good school got there because of race and they were under qualified. I take offense to that.
This is because of affirmative action. The qualifications of a minority will be in question because members of that minority ARE under qualified and gain their position solely because of their race. Unfortunately that casts doubt on the accomplishments of others of that minority, especially if they meet standards but don’t excel.
Sorry, that’s just the way it is. It’s not fair, but it is reality.
Kalroy
Comment by Kalroy — 11.15.06 @ 10:40 pm
If I want to induldge in class stereotypes, it’s the parents who started companies who bring in their kids to run the companies the parents started. That’s a different dynamic.
It’s not a stereotype if what I am saying is based on the truth. There have been numerous studies by sociologists that show poor people and upper-class people often have very different values and raise their children in different ways. It just so happens that as a percentage more black people in America are poor than white people ( although in sheer numbers there are more poor white people). Also black people seem to be more likely to give their children the “go to college so you can get a good job” talk than white parents do with their children. I don’t have any statistics to back this last statement up, just my personal experience and what I have heard from others.
Of course everyone cant be self-employed but thats not the point.
Actually, it is the point because your statement made it appear as if all Blacks should be self-employed.
At no point did I say “all blacks should be self-employed”. Everyone can’t own their own business of course but more black people need to work on being employers instead of employees.
Comment by DarkStar
Comment by SmartBlkWoman — 11.16.06 @ 2:23 am
Links That Don’t Stink
Funnies/Of Interest What a DoucheIslamic Rage Boy To Star in Re-Make Of Animal HouseHeh Heh - Joke of the Day News/Opinion Texas takes stand against illegal aliensCanadians of convenienceCalming Effect And, be sure to check out my sponsor, Hayden-Harne…
Trackback by The Crazy Rants of Samantha Burns — 11.16.06 @ 4:24 am
Edub, #30, sorry for the late reply. I know several people, white and black, who went to community college, for the same reasons you stated, and transferred to major universities. Most are now living very successful lives.
My point is, there’s a way to attend college for most who are motivated and capable of doing so, without the unfairness of AA.
By the way, what about my question in #17?
Comment by Niah — 11.16.06 @ 9:09 am
Edub,
Thanks for the article recommendation! It was a fascinating read, as you promised. I will be on the lookout for Fryer’s work.
Comment by Tyrian Purple — 11.16.06 @ 10:18 am
I dont know if you will see this but I’ve always wanted to ask what you view was on gender preferences. White women recieve alot of affirmitive action in business and in science/engineering education fields. Particularly in the latter, women in general are not as good at nor have an interest in math and engineering like men, yet they are being let in to top tier colleges with lower scores. I was just curious because I’ve never seen you address it.
I do agree with you on abolishing racial preferences but it would definitely add to your credibility on the issue if you were against it accross the board including women.
Comment by leila — 11.16.06 @ 11:34 am
Kalroy,
Kalroy said: The qualifications of a minority will be in question because members of that minority ARE under qualified and gain their position solely because of their race. Unfortunately that casts doubt on the accomplishments of others of that minority, especially if they meet standards but don’t excel.
Are you saying that all black people are underqualified for whatever they do???? I hope not. Yes, there are those who get things that they don’t deserve. However, there are those of us who are smart, by anybody’s standard. I don’t care if others think that I am unqualified just because I am black. The fact is. Not all of us are underqualified for everything.
QUESTION: IS IT ALWAYS TRUE THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ALWAYS MEANS THAT THE BLACK PERSON IS UNDERQUALIFIED?
As someone else has mentioned, there are alot of “programs” for various people not just black. My constant question has been, are we all against those too? Or is is just racial affirmative action? At GU there were students whose parents were donors to the school, some of their children did not qualify and did poorly throughout their time there. Is that unfair too? Again my point is lets get rid of it all and REALLY make it merit based, if we are going to do that.
Also, how do people feel about quota programs where the standards are not lowered, they just hold spaces for students of various backgrounds but they have to meet the standards. Is that ok or no?
Heather
Comment by Heather in MD — 11.16.06 @ 1:51 pm
One point is that everyone especially whites get ahead due to affirmative action. this post reminded me.
“One was a quote from an official at one of the U.C. schools, I think it was Berkeley, protesting that “if we admitted students just based on their academic credentials, we’d wind up with 80% Jewish and Asian freshmen”
http://volokh.com/posts/1163700959.shtml
I also recommend reading, “when affirmative action was white”
http://www.powells.com/biblio?PID=29928&cgi=product&isbn=0393052133
The fact is race preference and its flip side so call meritocracy are very interesting subjects that I think you should continue to discuss but in a deeper manner.
White workers demanding that we don’t outsource jobs is the exact same I don’t want to compete that you slam black people for. It hurts them as much as it hurts blacks.
But being black you feel it more for the blacks.
Comment by Scott Wickham — 11.16.06 @ 2:56 pm
QUESTION: IS IT ALWAYS TRUE THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ALWAYS MEANS THAT THE BLACK PERSON IS UNDERQUALIFIED? -Heather in MD-
Yes!
Isn’t the idea of Affirmative Action based on giving someone a “chance?” If I were a basketball coach and were “ordered by law” to give unqualified players a chance to play, I would put the fattest, slowest, laziest kids I could find on the court. Aren’t these the type of kids who normally don’t make the team and are discriminated against?
Comment by NeoLibertarian — 11.17.06 @ 9:10 am
There have been numerous studies by sociologists that show poor people and upper-class people often have very different values and raise their children in different ways.
True, but I addressed a specific you mentioned, not a generality as I just quoted.
Also black people seem to be more likely to give their children the go to college so you can get a good job talk than white parents do with their children. I dont have any statistics to back this last statement up, just my personal experience and what I have heard from others.
Thank you for saying it’s ancedotal because in my experience, it’s the same.
Comment by DarkStar — 11.17.06 @ 10:03 pm
Tyrian, I completely agree with you about the naming situation. A story…
About 20 years back, I knew a young black woman who wanted to name her newborn son “Matrion”. To her, the name seemed Classical, even with a touch of the ancient world. However, people with a passing knowledge of Latin (and virtually anyone who speaks Spanish) would know that the name can be loosely translated as “mama’s boy”.
I begged the woman not to do this, but she insisted, and sure enough, in school this kid got endless ribbing from Hispanic kids… “Yo! Mama’s boy!” He insisted that his school records go under the name “Matt” and the ribbing eventually stopped.
Last time I checked in with him, he was doing very well, having survived the Great Name Debacle.
However, he’d had his name legally changed to “Matthew” and goes by “Matt”. He is presently in college and doing very well with excellent prospects.
Parent’s DO need to be careful of what they name their children. This example is a bit on the extreme end, but it serves to illustrate what you’re talking about in names making a family look ignorant.
Comment by mamapajamas — 11.18.06 @ 2:12 pm
mamapajamas
I understand everything you guys are saying. My point is that an African American name or even and African name should make an employer toss a resume by fact they think the person is black. The issue is not names that make someone sound ignorant. The names Ebony, Aisha, Kiesha, Tasha, Reginald, Silas, etc are all “black” names but not associated amongst black people with ignorance. names like Shamika , and Shaniqua, and Alize, or Lexus - are ignorant names. Thats different from a name that identifies you as maybe being black alone.
Comment by Zakia — 11.18.06 @ 2:37 pm
Zakia, I’m not talking about African names, I’m talking about a made up name. The mother I knew made up the name “Matrion” because she liked the way it sounded kind of classical, totally unaware that it could be translated as “mama’s boy”, and didn’t change it after I told her. Those post-baby-boomers in California whose hippie parents named them “Moon” and “Peace” and other silly things have the same problem. A large number of them have had their names legally changed. (And then we come to the problem of, “How many pages of ‘John Smith’ are in YOUR phone book?”… but that’s another rant
)
Part of the problem is that too many people, especially employers who should know better, don’t know that there’s a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance is not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and going ahead anyway.
The mother I spoke of was simply ignorant of Latin because she had never studied it, and didn’t know how “Matrion” could be translated. When she ignored my warning, she was displaying stupidity, and her son suffered for it.
Too many employers don’t understand that a person who doesn’t know a thing might quickly learn it, since ignorance is a measure of what you don’t know, not how smart you are. We find out how smart you are when the things you learn stick with you. And that is the real problem when encountering such things on job apps. It’s one of the things a job app can’t measure. We can only go by resume information that indicates a steady improvement, and I have a tendency to pay more attention to resumes than the app form. I look for things like spelling and sentence structure, and indications that the most recent job required more “smarts” than the previous job… indications that what is learned sticks.
However, that isn’t the way things everywhere. We can’t go out and demand that every company in the US immediately fire every employee who doesn’t know the difference between ignorance and stupidity. OR that they immediately fire someone suspected of racism, since that is hard to prove, although there’s been a lot of progress there in the last 40 or so years.
The simple fact is that we must work with the hand we have been dealt. And I would be very hesitant to even want to work for a company that doesn’t like to hire women in the formerly all-male position I presently hold (and, yes, there were even a lot of black males in the field, just very few women). I had a lot of trouble breaking into my field, and consider the people who refused to hire me for some of the stupidest excuses I’ve ever heard to be the ones who lost out on that deal.
BTW, I absolutely love the name “Zakia” :).
Comment by mamapajamas — 11.18.06 @ 4:39 pm
mamapajamas
I think we’re on the same page. You just made the point better. I happen to agree with you actually. Any name that sounds like it might be attached a an unintelligent person or someone that is stereotyped as lower class may get the boot. However the problem, in the studies that have been done multiple times, is that a “black” sounding name, ‘ghetto’ ‘made-up’ or not, when presented with the exact same qualifications as the resume with the ‘white’ or ‘European’ sounding name, that ‘black’ one is tossed. Thats the problem I have with the whole deal, in terms of employment. I mean my name (thanks for the compliment BTW) got me teased so bad in school, and not one teacher would take 5 seconds to actually look at it and bother to try and pronounce it. So I became Zombie, Zacharia, Zig Zag, Last, Zenobia, Zerkisha, Zackariah, Zachary, Zucchini, even names people would just give me. I was ashamed and embarrassed to have this name that 1 no one wanted to bother to pronounce, and 2 people couldn’t understand where it came from so they either teased and made fun of it, or outright did not bother to call me by my name. Then I have to think if I got looked over because of my name, maybe that I was black and ghetto ( us round the way black folks love names ending with an ‘A’)? And ironic things is that the name means intelligent in Arabic and in Hebrew it means Bright *L*. Actually would be interested in someone opinion on what type of person might be attached to the name Zakia
Comment by Zakia — 11.18.06 @ 11:56 pm
Hey Mama in Pajamas and Zakia,
Mamapajamas, you pretty much made my point. #76 Zakia, I will reiterate once more, black applicants are NOT the only ones with liability names. A too feminine name is a liability in the business world. A too hillbilly name is a liability, and as we all know, the “matrion” types are liabilities. If the studies didn’t address the Billy Bob aspect, then they’re pretty much worthless. I knew a couple of white kids with hippy names like Sunshine to ever think race is the sole reason a name is going to hurt. All “white” names don’t look alike, and just as easily have stereotypes associated with them.
I think the “black name” studies were latched onto precisely because the “Matrion” phenomena is so common among black people, and people instinctively know it has to have a negative affect.
I’m sorry your name got made fun of, though. I’ve had classmates with names like Papadopoulis which I can somewhat understand someone mispronouncing.
I had a best friend from India who had us intentionally mispronounce her name because she had no faith we could pronounce it properly, but unfortunately it left her open to teasing about being a “fart head”. I don’t see how any literate teacher could get Zakia wrong, though, as it looks fairly straightforward, so I don’t blame you for being frustrated. I’d be curious to know what would have happened if you had gone to a school with a lot of Jewish and Arab kids, especially if the Jewish kids went by Jewish names.
Names and their etymologies are actually a hobby of mine. I suspected your name was Semitic, so I’m glad you said what it meant, because I have been wondering. By the way, did you know that “Zenobia” (one of the names you mentioned) was a Syrian queen of Palmyra, who, in the 3rd century, picked a fight with Rome. She lost, and had to retire to Rome, I think under house arrest. Does Zakia have a famous namesake?
I hope you’re proud of your name now. I fall into the “John Smith in the phone book” category, and I would have liked to have had a more distinctive name.
Comment by Tyrian Purple — 11.19.06 @ 4:28 pm