Mamapajamas, you pretty much made my point. #76 Zakia, I will reiterate once more, black applicants are NOT the only ones with liability names. A too feminine name is a liability in the business world. A too hillbilly name is a liability, and as we all know, the “matrion” types are liabilities. If the studies didn’t address the Billy Bob aspect, then they’re pretty much worthless. I knew a couple of white kids with hippy names like Sunshine to ever think race is the sole reason a name is going to hurt. All “white” names don’t look alike, and just as easily have stereotypes associated with them.

I think the “black name” studies were latched onto precisely because the “Matrion” phenomena is so common among black people, and people instinctively know it has to have a negative affect.

I’m sorry your name got made fun of, though. I’ve had classmates with names like Papadopoulis which I can somewhat understand someone mispronouncing.

I had a best friend from India who had us intentionally mispronounce her name because she had no faith we could pronounce it properly, but unfortunately it left her open to teasing about being a “fart head”. I don’t see how any literate teacher could get Zakia wrong, though, as it looks fairly straightforward, so I don’t blame you for being frustrated. I’d be curious to know what would have happened if you had gone to a school with a lot of Jewish and Arab kids, especially if the Jewish kids went by Jewish names.

Names and their etymologies are actually a hobby of mine. I suspected your name was Semitic, so I’m glad you said what it meant, because I have been wondering. By the way, did you know that “Zenobia” (one of the names you mentioned) was a Syrian queen of Palmyra, who, in the 3rd century, picked a fight with Rome. She lost, and had to retire to Rome, I think under house arrest. Does Zakia have a famous namesake?

I hope you’re proud of your name now. I fall into the “John Smith in the phone book” category, and I would have liked to have had a more distinctive name.

I think we’re on the same page. You just made the point better. I happen to agree with you actually. Any name that sounds like it might be attached a an unintelligent person or someone that is stereotyped as lower class may get the boot. However the problem, in the studies that have been done multiple times, is that a “black” sounding name, ‘ghetto’ ‘made-up’ or not, when presented with the exact same qualifications as the resume with the ‘white’ or ‘European’ sounding name, that ‘black’ one is tossed. Thats the problem I have with the whole deal, in terms of employment. I mean my name (thanks for the compliment BTW) got me teased so bad in school, and not one teacher would take 5 seconds to actually look at it and bother to try and pronounce it. So I became Zombie, Zacharia, Zig Zag, Last, Zenobia, Zerkisha, Zackariah, Zachary, Zucchini, even names people would just give me. I was ashamed and embarrassed to have this name that 1 no one wanted to bother to pronounce, and 2 people couldn’t understand where it came from so they either teased and made fun of it, or outright did not bother to call me by my name. Then I have to think if I got looked over because of my name, maybe that I was black and ghetto ( us round the way black folks love names ending with an ‘A’)? And ironic things is that the name means intelligent in Arabic and in Hebrew it means Bright *L*. Actually would be interested in someone opinion on what type of person might be attached to the name Zakia

Part of the problem is that too many people, especially employers who should know better, don’t know that there’s a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance is not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and going ahead anyway.

The mother I spoke of was simply ignorant of Latin because she had never studied it, and didn’t know how “Matrion” could be translated. When she ignored my warning, she was displaying stupidity, and her son suffered for it.

Too many employers don’t understand that a person who doesn’t know a thing might quickly learn it, since ignorance is a measure of what you don’t know, not how smart you are. We find out how smart you are when the things you learn stick with you. And that is the real problem when encountering such things on job apps. It’s one of the things a job app can’t measure. We can only go by resume information that indicates a steady improvement, and I have a tendency to pay more attention to resumes than the app form. I look for things like spelling and sentence structure, and indications that the most recent job required more “smarts” than the previous job… indications that what is learned sticks.

However, that isn’t the way things everywhere. We can’t go out and demand that every company in the US immediately fire every employee who doesn’t know the difference between ignorance and stupidity. OR that they immediately fire someone suspected of racism, since that is hard to prove, although there’s been a lot of progress there in the last 40 or so years.

The simple fact is that we must work with the hand we have been dealt. And I would be very hesitant to even want to work for a company that doesn’t like to hire women in the formerly all-male position I presently hold (and, yes, there were even a lot of black males in the field, just very few women). I had a lot of trouble breaking into my field, and consider the people who refused to hire me for some of the stupidest excuses I’ve ever heard to be the ones who lost out on that deal.

BTW, I absolutely love the name “Zakia” .

I understand everything you guys are saying. My point is that an African American name or even and African name should make an employer toss a resume by fact they think the person is black. The issue is not names that make someone sound ignorant. The names Ebony, Aisha, Kiesha, Tasha, Reginald, Silas, etc are all “black” names but not associated amongst black people with ignorance. names like Shamika , and Shaniqua, and Alize, or Lexus – are ignorant names. Thats different from a name that identifies you as maybe being black alone.

About 20 years back, I knew a young black woman who wanted to name her newborn son “Matrion”. To her, the name seemed Classical, even with a touch of the ancient world. However, people with a passing knowledge of Latin (and virtually anyone who speaks Spanish) would know that the name can be loosely translated as “mama’s boy”.

I begged the woman not to do this, but she insisted, and sure enough, in school this kid got endless ribbing from Hispanic kids… “Yo! Mama’s boy!” He insisted that his school records go under the name “Matt” and the ribbing eventually stopped.

Last time I checked in with him, he was doing very well, having survived the Great Name Debacle.

However, he’d had his name legally changed to “Matthew” and goes by “Matt”. He is presently in college and doing very well with excellent prospects.

Parent’s DO need to be careful of what they name their children. This example is a bit on the extreme end, but it serves to illustrate what you’re talking about in names making a family look ignorant.

True, but I addressed a specific you mentioned, not a generality as I just quoted.

Also black people seem to be more likely to give their children the go to college so you can get a good job talk than white parents do with their children. I dont have any statistics to back this last statement up, just my personal experience and what I have heard from others.

Thank you for saying it’s ancedotal because in my experience, it’s the same.

Yes!

Isn’t the idea of Affirmative Action based on giving someone a “chance?” If I were a basketball coach and were “ordered by law” to give unqualified players a chance to play, I would put the fattest, slowest, laziest kids I could find on the court. Aren’t these the type of kids who normally don’t make the team and are discriminated against?

“One was a quote from an official at one of the U.C. schools, I think it was Berkeley, protesting that “if we admitted students just based on their academic credentials, we’d wind up with 80% Jewish and Asian freshmen”
http://volokh.com/posts/1163700959.shtml

I also recommend reading, “when affirmative action was white”

http://www.powells.com/biblio?PID=29928&cgi=product&isbn=0393052133

The fact is race preference and its flip side so call meritocracy are very interesting subjects that I think you should continue to discuss but in a deeper manner.

White workers demanding that we don’t outsource jobs is the exact same I don’t want to compete that you slam black people for. It hurts them as much as it hurts blacks.

But being black you feel it more for the blacks.

Kalroy said: The qualifications of a minority will be in question because members of that minority ARE under qualified and gain their position solely because of their race. Unfortunately that casts doubt on the accomplishments of others of that minority, especially if they meet standards but don’t excel.

Are you saying that all black people are underqualified for whatever they do???? I hope not. Yes, there are those who get things that they don’t deserve. However, there are those of us who are smart, by anybody’s standard. I don’t care if others think that I am unqualified just because I am black. The fact is. Not all of us are underqualified for everything.

QUESTION: IS IT ALWAYS TRUE THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION ALWAYS MEANS THAT THE BLACK PERSON IS UNDERQUALIFIED?

As someone else has mentioned, there are alot of “programs” for various people not just black. My constant question has been, are we all against those too? Or is is just racial affirmative action? At GU there were students whose parents were donors to the school, some of their children did not qualify and did poorly throughout their time there. Is that unfair too? Again my point is lets get rid of it all and REALLY make it merit based, if we are going to do that.

Also, how do people feel about quota programs where the standards are not lowered, they just hold spaces for students of various backgrounds but they have to meet the standards. Is that ok or no?

Heather

I do agree with you on abolishing racial preferences but it would definitely add to your credibility on the issue if you were against it accross the board including women.

Thanks for the article recommendation! It was a fascinating read, as you promised. I will be on the lookout for Fryer’s work.

My point is, there’s a way to attend college for most who are motivated and capable of doing so, without the unfairness of AA.

By the way, what about my question in #17?

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It’s not a stereotype if what I am saying is based on the truth. There have been numerous studies by sociologists that show poor people and upper-class people often have very different values and raise their children in different ways. It just so happens that as a percentage more black people in America are poor than white people ( although in sheer numbers there are more poor white people). Also black people seem to be more likely to give their children the “go to college so you can get a good job” talk than white parents do with their children. I don’t have any statistics to back this last statement up, just my personal experience and what I have heard from others.

Of course everyone cant be self-employed but thats not the point.

Actually, it is the point because your statement made it appear as if all Blacks should be self-employed.

At no point did I say “all blacks should be self-employed”. Everyone can’t own their own business of course but more black people need to work on being employers instead of employees.

Comment by DarkStar

This is because of affirmative action. The qualifications of a minority will be in question because members of that minority ARE under qualified and gain their position solely because of their race. Unfortunately that casts doubt on the accomplishments of others of that minority, especially if they meet standards but don’t excel.

Sorry, that’s just the way it is. It’s not fair, but it is reality.

Kalroy