Update II (11/29): Hard truth #101 (free reg. req.): “To ensure diversity among new associates, the study found, elite law firms hire minority lawyers with, on average, much lower grades than white ones. That may, the study says, set them up to fail.”
Regardless of what anyone reading this blog thinks about me or why I write about preferences, “diversity” is code for “lowering the bar to admit and hire black people.”
There just aren’t enough blacks competitive with whites to go around, so in order to meet some elusive skin color goal, businesses and government must lower hiring and admissions standards for blacks. (Lowering standards for all would be impractical, not to mention detrimental.) This is fact, not opinion. Black affirmative action proponents know this, and they also know that race-neutral policies will not work to their benefit, at least not in the short run. It has nothing to do with white people “oppressing” or “discriminating” against them.
What’s the solution? It may sound simplistic, but I believe reversing the trend of fatherlessness in the black community, focusing on education (and enduring the attendant sacrifices to make it a top priority in practice, not just in theory), and quashing all tendencies to blame white people for anything would be ideal places to begin.
Later…Commenter and blogger Thomas Nguyen writes in the comment section:
It’s clear just from the tenor of this debate that multiculturalism is as divisive as ever. The assimilation model that America had before all these “isms” worked wonderfully for all Americans.
America is an idea sown together by a common language and a common reverence for two revolutionary documents - The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. All who immigrate and live in America are free to have these ideas imbued in their hearts and minds.
Multiculturalism and their concomitant ideologies say that differences are more important than what we all hold in common. It is the poison of this age that insists on being different, when to be fully human is to acknowledge and take delight in finding commonality, that is, having affinity and empathy for you fellow man.
Update: Blogger Ed, who says he’s half Korean, writes:
“Frankly I think the black community is overly fixated on race as an issue instead of actually concentrating on fixing problems. And I think the whole race issue tends to lead blacks towards infantilism where failure isn’t really their fault, it’s the ‘Man’ who did it…I know a black guy who works as a supervisor for a large railroad. Makes over $80k a year, great benefits, fully paid pension, etc. And yet this guy looks me in the face and sobs out that he feels oppressed. Oppressed?!”
I think I know that guy. 
Education blogger Joanne Jacobs writes: “Apparently, academic excellence makes students of Vietnamese, Chinese, Indian, Korean and Hmong ancestry un-diverse.”
——————————————————————–
(Is it safe to assume that people of Asian descent read this blog? If so, I’d love to have your feedback on this post.)
I read the following line in this article, and almost laughed myself brain dead:
Diversity in the classroom has a tremendous impact on helping with students’ critical thinking and social skills…
I know for a fact that statement is BS. In the classrooms I’ve sat in, the worship of so-called diversity tended to stifle the debate, not enhance it. It’s difficult to develop critical thinking skills if you can’t discuss all sides of an issue. It wasn’t so much that different races couldn’t or didn’t get along, but too-sensitive people basically ran the classroom.
The emphasis on skin color for its own sake and the annoying and mind-numbing politically correct tip-toeing got on my nerves even when I was a liberal. I can’t imagine what it’s like these days as a conservative in college, where you can’t say a darn thing that’s negative about any race other than white without being called a racist.
Let’s define “critical thinking.” It is the cognitive process of “conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and evaluating information to reach an answer or conclusion.” Now use your critical thinking skills to conceptualize, apply, analyze, synthesize, and evaluate this: Discussing negative aspects of “diversity” in general or racial groups in particular are taboo, unless the racial group is white, so how does one develop critical thinking skills if one can’t discuss and evaluate topics that may be offensive to some? How does one “reach an answer or conclusion” with incomplete and “undebated” information? It’s difficult to develop critical thinking skills when discussions with even a hint of negativity about race are taboo.
At this point you may be asking, “La Shawn, why would people need to discuss negative aspects of racial groups? Why is it relevant, and what does it have to do with developing critical thinking skills?”
Skin color diversity-obsessed folks talk incessantly about race and promote it every chance they get. But if you’re going to promote skin color and “cultural” distinctions among students yet discourage them from talking about all aspects of race and culture, for example, what’s the point?
There isn’t supposed to be a point. That’s the point. Critical thinking, as defined by liberals, is what they want you to think; hence, thought control through speech codes. Critical thinking is acknowledging the sins of white people in particular and America in general. Period.
Back on Topic!
You know what? Asians as a non-preferred minority was the original topic of this post (check out the title), but I got sidetracked by that asinine “critical thinking skills” line.
Ten years ago this month, the people of California voted out government racial preferences. Since considering the race of applicants is now illegal, colleges have had to rely on race-neutral factors like grades and test scores. But once again we read about Asians excelling and blacks and hispanics getting left behind. The question asked is will Asian-Americans one day make up a majority of students at the University of California? Thanks to race-neutral admissions, YES. An excerpt:
Asian-Americans - 14.1 percent of California’s 2005 high school graduating class - make up 41.8 percent of the freshman class at UC campuses, up from 36 percent a decade ago.
Meanwhile, blacks at 3 percent and whites at 32.2 percent make up smaller shares of UC’s freshman class than they did previously. Latinos account for 16.3 percent of UC freshmen, up from 13 percent a decade ago, but still less than half their 36.5 percentage of state high school graduates.
Whites also make up a lesser percentage of students at UC than they did 10 years ago, but they’re not a minority (or are they???), so they don’t count.
Relying on the all-too-typical method of increasing “minority” enrollment — lowered standards — an academic in the UC system says that the school should consider the hysterically inane “leadership” factor, euphemism for “lower grades and test scores.”
Hope Springs Ephemeral!
It is my HOPE that one day, black Americans as a group will excel academically the way non-preferred minorities do. The first thing blacks will need to do as a community is push marriage back to the top of the must-do list. While unstable families don’t cause academic failure, the two are highly correlated. I believe people who get married before they have children have a somewhat different value system than people who don’t, and an emphasis on education — the need to give their child a good start in life, cultivate a love for learning, etc. — is one of those values. People who don’t comprehend the need for two parents in a household and/or strive to achieve it don’t put much stock in academic excellence. Well, perhaps they do in theory, but not in practice.
I’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I’d still like to hear from Asian readers on the large percentage of Asian students at schools like UC.
Addendum: An Asian student files suit against Princeton for alleged discrimination. From the article:
The complaint, which was filed with the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights on Oct. 25, alleges that the University’s admissions procedures are biased because they advantage other minority groups, namely African-Americans and Hispanics, legacy applicants and athletes at the expense of Asian-American applicants.
And this is especially important:
Li cites a recent study conducted by two Princeton professors as evidence for his case. The study, published in June 2005, concluded that removing consideration of race would have little effect on white students, but that Asian students would fill nearly four out of every five places in admitted classes that are currently taken by African-American or Hispanic students.
Is Reconstruction nearing an end?
(Photo credit: SCOTT LINNETT / Union-Tribune)
Lowered standards compared to what?
The type of meritocratic institution that you argue for didn’t exist in the first half of the 20th century. The top colleges and universities in the country routinely shut out jewish students who outscored the wealthy northeast WASPs (the main demographic that these schools). The only reason we have shifted to more numbers based college admissions was the increased emphasis during the cold war era to produce the top scholars in math and the sciences.
Colleges have always had to strike a balance considering statistical determinants (SAT, GPA) and other, more subjective criteria (personality, extracurriculars, athletic ability). Measuring students qualitatively– is student x a great person, a natural leader– was ultimately used to protect and retain whites and existed long before affirmative action was instituted for blacks. Unless a school wants to only produce scientists, analysts, and researchers, they desperately need (and want) to fill their incoming classes with more than kids who just have great scores.
You can’t measure great graduates with test scores or GPA.
Comment by rob — 11.28.06 @ 10:12 am
Well, that’s interesting, isn’t it? I think diversity itself is fine, but the issue shouldn’t be forced. Places shouldn’t be trying to create an artificially even, 12% of everyone mix. People are free to go where they want and associate with who they want so this whole academic obesession with trying to make every classroom have 6 of each race is ridiculous.
When I went to grammar school, I was usually the only Chinese kid in my class, and guess what? No one cared, including me. We were there to learn reading & math, and we were all expected to behave and be courteous regardless of our color or gender. Our area didn’t have a large Asian population at the time so it wasn’t surprising that the schools didn’t have a lot of Asian kids. (Schools reflecting the local population? -no way!) It wasn’t until high school that I met some other Asian friends, and then met a lot more in college.
Back to the topic at hand. If the area around UC has a large Asian population, no one should be surprised that the school has a lot of Asian students. Out of state or out of town students shouldn’t be surprised that a different city looks different from their hometown. How naive (or brainwashed) they are to think that a new city would look and feel just like home.
From the article, it sounds like the admissions procedure is very fair: top 4% of class, high grades & test scores, extracurricular merits.
Comment by FL Mom — 11.28.06 @ 10:32 am
It spoke volumes to me that, during the L.A. riots of the early ’90s, black hoodlums seemed to target specifically the stores owned by Asian-Americans. It was as if they took particular offense at a minority group which had chosen not to adopt a victimization mindset, and to work hard and succeed.
Comment by Dave — 11.28.06 @ 10:43 am
I am Asian (well, half-Asian) and I am a private music teacher. I have had many Asian students over the years, and there is a big difference in the way these kids behave and the other American kids. Asian kids (who have non-americanized Asian parents) work harder, are more serious, and are pushed harder by their parents. They are a joy to teach, because they actually DO what you TELL them to. The family has everything to do with a kid’s grades.
Comment by Hayley — 11.28.06 @ 11:03 am
I obtained my undergraduate degree at a Texas University with a large student population from India and Pakistan, and a large student population of Mexican descent. While it may be different in colleges that focus on touchy-feely stuff, in the engineering colleges diversity was largely irrelevant except that a good number of those from Pakistan had personal hygeine habits that made them unpleasant to stand close to, which did not make them real popular as lab partners. My graduate degree (from a Florida University) put me in classes with a large student population of Far Eastern races (Japan, China mostly). Again, race was irrelevant.
F=ma any place in the world.
Chuck
Comment by Chuck — 11.28.06 @ 11:58 am
LaShawn, I don’t know if this article is relevant, but I thought it was funny as hell. I guess the libs in San Francisco don’t like it when a “minority” outscores, outperforms, and outclasses them. They like their minorities to stay DOWN. Those darned Asians!
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/12/the_new_separate_but_equal.html
Comment by batyah — 11.28.06 @ 12:23 pm
Hmmm.
“Diversity” is utter nonsense. If you can’t hack the program, then you don’t belong there. I’m half-Korean and I think race in many regards should be irrelevant.
Frankly I think the black community is overly fixated on race as an issue instead of actually concentrating on fixing problems. And I think the whole race issue tends to lead blacks towards infantilism where failure isn’t really their fault, it’s the “Man” who did it.
I know a black guy who works as a supervisor for a large railroad. Makes over $80k a year, great benefits, fully paid pension, etc. And yet this guy looks me in the face and sobs out that he feels oppressed. Oppressed?!
It’s a strange world.
Comment by ed — 11.28.06 @ 12:29 pm
The liberal arts part of the university hasn’t changed much except to become exceedingly liberal. Liberal Arts degrees are not worth the fake parchment they are printed on in today’s economy.
A college degree is a required ticket to a good entry level job today. But the degree had best be in something other than women’s studies or differential poetry.
The Asian students may well take over the academic world where “sensitive individuality” doesn’t count. That is fine with me. I want my CPA, lawyer, doctor, engineer, programmer, etc. to be top performers in their craft.
I have never paid a dime to a rap artist, basketball player, or poet. Why should I? It is all around me, free for the taking.
The rules of economics favor the Asians and those others who have needed skills to sell. For whatever reason, many Asians are tuned into the value of a useful education. They work for it, while others want special treatment and recognition.
As for the “average student” who rises to greatness in spite of a mediocre college performance: perhaps he wasted four years and lot of money before getting started.
Comment by Heliotrope — 11.28.06 @ 12:38 pm
La Shawn, No need to post this…I’ve been reading your blog for awhile and just decided to chime in on this race issue since we are an odd family! Thanks for all your hard work, your insights, and for being brave as you fight the battles! Blessings on you. mark
Having been born in Korea to white parents of English, German, Irish, and American Indian descent with 7 natural children, two adopted Koreans, and now after 50 years…we find in our immediate family, white, black, Korean, Chinese, Arab, Mexican, poloynesian…I am saddened that we are still having to deal with race issues. Yet…I realize that Jesus told us that even in the last days it would be “nation against nation” or more of a literal translation, “race against race”. But, thankfully the Lord has allowed us (for what ever reason) to experience the incredible love and respect that our family has for each other.
In our family we have extremely educated (doctors and lawyers) to those who never even made it to the high school level. None of us complain or compare why or why not, fair or unfair…we just realize that some worked harder than others and some just chose their walk in life. We’ve never even discussed if it was because we were part of a certain race!
Mankind pretty much knows that we’re all connected in some way…but the nations still refuse to admit it. Hopefully one day it will change.
Comment by Mark — 11.28.06 @ 1:00 pm
It spoke volumes to me that, during the L.A. riots of the early ’90s, black hoodlums seemed to target specifically the stores owned by Asian-Americans. It was as if they took particular offense at a minority group which had chosen not to adopt a victimization mindset, and to work hard and succeed.
The above recollection reminds me of the “hoodlums” who the thriving communities in Tulsa Oklahoma and the massacre in Rosewood FL.. Clearly, the perpetrators of these horrendous slaughters were offended also, by hard work. It’s odd sometimes, how circular are some events.
Comment by Tafaraji — 11.28.06 @ 1:21 pm
Gee whiz, I totally destroyed the above post. Let me clarify what it should say. ” The hoodlums who murdered and destroyed the thriving communities..so on and so forth, blah blah blah”
Comment by Tafaraji — 11.28.06 @ 1:33 pm
#8 Heliotrope - That reminds me of how some of my friends used to make fun of their own majors in Liberal Arts & Sciences (LAS) as an acronym for “Lazy and Stupid.”
Comment by FL Mom — 11.28.06 @ 1:44 pm
“Yet…I realize that Jesus told us that even in the last days it would be “nation against nation†or more of a literal translation, “race against raceâ€.”
That’s certainly one way to spread racial fear and an End-of-World-whole lotta’-doom mentality?
With respect, isn’t that the hardcore Nationalist’s job?
Comment by JohnD — 11.28.06 @ 1:45 pm
Tafaraji: ‘They’ don’t hear you, girl!
But I do.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 11.28.06 @ 2:35 pm
La Shawn,
I rather suspect that one of the primary reasons why Asians excel in education is because their parents actually try to raise them. I can’t speak for the other Asians but for the Vietnamese, culturally, are very tight-knit and insular. No matter their dysfunctions (there are aplenty), I’d say most Vietnamese parents push their children to do well in school; oftentimes to the point of being overbearing.
Is it any wonder that black and Hispanic kids perform poorly when they have been fed from childhood that they are they are victims and deserve benefits? The logic runs: If am oppressed, I should be made equal. To make myself equal, I must either demand preference and benefits from my oppressors or I must tear my oppressors down.
Though you would hardly get anyone to admit it, inherent in this logic is that a)an admission of inferiority and b)an envy and greed unparalleled in human history. To take on the mantle of victimhood is to make unrestricted demands on the world… and expect them to be met.
Instead of taking on responsibility, victimology casually abandon it.
This is not to say Asians don’t do this. They do. But they do it to a lesser degree.
Case in point: I don’t ever recall an Asian history month. Have you?
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.28.06 @ 2:57 pm
Feel me Tiffany… some post just have so much personality!…. ;-)… by the way… check out the third and forth pic …
“http://journals.aol.com/tafaraji1/Tafaraji/”>ME
Comment by Tafaraji — 11.28.06 @ 3:03 pm
I wonder why the 2005 Princeton study stopped at the removal of race. What would the freshman class look like if they removed the legacy applicants?
So much focus in on race, but it is class that is the real issue. Legacy applicants favor class, which tends to favor whites–at least for right now.
If we are going to eliminate all preferences, let’s make sure the legacy is a part of it.
BTW, the first post is excellent. And Taraji’s post is one that we love to overlook.
Comment by Hunter — 11.28.06 @ 3:04 pm
That’s interesting Hunter….I was just recalling a similar event. You don’t think you should over-look both post, or if you will, acknowledge both post? The goal of the thread is to endorse parity… .. Or was it something I said?
Comment by Tafaraji — 11.28.06 @ 3:20 pm
Since Thomas Nguyen is clueless; let me educate him on Asian Pacific American Heritage month celebrated in May of every year.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/asianintro1.html
Just because you aren’t interested or don’t care that your heritage is indeed recognized in this country, don’t hate beause I do.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 11.28.06 @ 3:45 pm
To Dave @ post 3:
Actually more hispanics were arrested in the L.A. riots than blacks…look it up before you start naming “hoodlums”.
“Approximately 3,600 fires were set, destroying 1,100 buildings, with fire calls coming once every minute at some points. About 10,000 people were arrested; about 42% African-American, 44% Hispanic, 9% white, and 2% other. ”
http://www.answers.com/topic/1992-los-angeles-riots
Comment by Ras — 11.28.06 @ 3:48 pm
Thomas @15:
There is an Asian History month:
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/asianhistory1.html
I heard of this back as an undergrad as the local Asian American Pacific Island group had pan-Asian cultural events on campus.
Comment by Ras — 11.28.06 @ 3:52 pm
Rather than being a product of race, we are more a product of cultures and sub-cultures. I know some first-generation Korean immigrants who had the fastest manual assembly I’d ever seen. Does that mean my half-Korean ancestry friend who grew up in America is good at putting things together? Not necessarily. Cultures value some skills and talents higher than others based on various factors. Those skills and talents are encouraged while others are suppressed.
Comment by Steve Walden — 11.28.06 @ 3:58 pm
Thomas Nguyen makes a great point.
What Asians have today is what most ethnic whites (Irish, Germans, Italians, Jews, etc) and the vast majority of working blacks had not all that long ago - a sense of duty and honor to your parents and the concept of shame - bringing shame on yourSELF and your family through personal debasement.
The problem isn’t “Asian over-achievement,” it’s the reverse. Blacks, Hispanics and whites would all be better off emulating the things that have cultivated success among Asians for themselves, rather than foolishly trying to limit the number of Asians admitted in the name of “diversity.”
Comment by JMK — 11.28.06 @ 3:59 pm
“There is an Asian History month”
“pan-Asian cultural events”
Sounds like anti-American liberal claptrap.
Comment by JohnD — 11.28.06 @ 4:30 pm
JMK:
“The problem isn’t “Asian over-achievement,†it’s the reverse. Blacks, Hispanics and whites would all be better off emulating the things that have cultivated success among Asians for themselves, rather than foolishly trying to limit the number of Asians admitted in the name of “diversity.†”
Yeah…that is all good. HOpe you are ready for the high teenage suidcide rates that come with that shame. Check out the suicide rates in Korea and Japan and get back to me.
Comment by Ras — 11.28.06 @ 4:45 pm
For more on suicides in Asia…
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suicideprevent/en/index.html
Look at the map in the middle of this link
“For some other countries the latest suicide rates are as follows: Sweden (18.9/8.1), Finland (31.9/9.8), Germany (20.4/7.0), Great Britain (10.8/3.1), U. S. (17.6/4.1) and Japan (35.2/12.8).”
Very high in males, teens or otherwise, usually related with being layed off, bad grades, unemployed, etc.
Everything is not more green on the otherside.
Comment by Ras — 11.28.06 @ 4:50 pm
Well, I stand corrected about the “pan-Asian cultural events” month. Living in and among Asians for most of my life, I don’t really recall ever seeing anything remotely like a “pan-Asian cultural events”. The closest thing I’ve ever seen on a celebratory month for Asians is “culture night” in high schools - and celebrates all cultures.
In any case, Ras is probably correct in the statistics he cites here. When, culturally speaking, Asian families prefer the males over the females, resulting in a heavily lopsided population in gender, you have a wee bit of a problem. But I think that’s really beside the point.
I thought this discussion had to do with Asians who have assimilated into America, rather than ethnicities within their home countries… If I had been mistaken in this, I beg your pardon.
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.28.06 @ 5:02 pm
“Diversity in the classroom has a tremendous impact on helping with students’ critical thinking and social skills…”
This statement is probably highly exaggerated, but I doubt that this diversity hampers critical thinking. One does not have to choose between having debates that involve criticizing other races and ethnicities or not developing critical thinking skills. “Skin color diversity-obssessed folks” are in the minority and they definitely don’t define critical thinking. There are thousands of things that can be debated that have no direct relation to race.
I think that what this statement is saying is that diversity in a classroom can bring about more diverse points of view on any subject, even if that subject is not race or ethnicity related. I doubt that many people look at it from the standpoint of debates of black vs whites vs Hispance vs Asian, etc.
Comment by Shade — 11.28.06 @ 5:18 pm
Tiffany,
Ah… What can I say? I don’t live in and around schools anymore, and I don’t keep up with what’s officially recognized with respect to multicultural celebrations.
I see you are from Houston. That’s where I grew up, and I don’t remember anything like celebration for Asians for the month of May. And I’m not sure there should be.
However, I believe my point still stands. I cannot command every minutiae of fact, but I think my reasoning on this point is sound.
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.28.06 @ 5:21 pm
Ras: How do you explain Finland having a rate almost twice that of Sweden?
Comment by Radish — 11.28.06 @ 5:21 pm
Actually, Shade, I thought I explained why I focused on that line, but apparently my point wasn’t clear enough. Skin color-obsessed liberals are NOT a minority, at least not in the world I live in.
Yes, there are a thousand things people can discuss, but my point is that if the focus is on skin color diversity rather than say, intellectual diversity, certain topics are bound to be taboo because of racially sensitive people. Additionally, if bringing together multiple skin colors somehow “enhances” or encourages critical thinking, then nothing should be taboo, not even questioning the so-called benefit skin color diversity.
What enhanced my ability to think critically (and I’m still learning) was being exposed to different points of view, not different races. I like a well-formed, well-reasoned argument, and the person’s skin color doesn’t “enhance” a thing.
It is skin-deep-only diversity proponents who believe racial representation for its own sake improves one’s ability to think critically. That’s the biggest load of bunk I’ve ever heard. I’d argue that different ideologies, NOT RACES, create diverse viewpoints. For instance, black proponents of so-called affirmative action tend to be Democrat-voting liberals. How diverse will their ideologies be from their white counterparts, would you imagine?
I don’t know how clearer I need to be to get you and other detractors to understand what I spend so much time writing on this blog.
Very frustrating.
Comment by La Shawn — 11.28.06 @ 5:25 pm
Hunter,
Bob Gates got rid of race-based admissions at Texas A&M. He got rid of legacy-based admissions at the same time. Seems like a fair system to me.
I stopped giving money to my alma mater (Rice) when they started making race a factor for admissions after the Michigan decision. It’s ridiculous to consider race when every single applicant goes through a personal interview (or at any time, actually). With an interview, you can consider every applicant as an individual. Isn’t that how we should evaluate people?
Comment by class-factotum — 11.28.06 @ 5:48 pm
Can somebody help me out on this “legacy” claim? I think I am hearing that some large number of bozos get moved to the head of the admissions line because their families have a tie with the school. Am I reading that correctly?
Which specific schools do this?
I know a family that has three generations of Harvard graduates. They all went to the same expensive as all imagination prep school. That prep school sends most of its grads to “Ivy League” schools. It is a very demanding school and the graduates are top notch, although some of them have to take an extra year to graduate. Are these people part of the “legacy” crowd? (I should add that one child in the current generation could not get into the prep school and he will not be Harvard bound.)
Comment by Heliotrope — 11.28.06 @ 6:00 pm
Tafaraji, I targeted an event of about 15 years ago. You targeted events that occurred more than 80 years ago. The attitudes of white America regarding race have done a virtual 180 since 1920–in fact, since 1960. If only we could convince black America that such is the case. I, for one, refuse to be held responsible for what my ancestors might have done before I was born (except in the case of Adam and Eve).
Comment by Dave — 11.28.06 @ 6:18 pm
Ras, is your argument that high standards and a more demanding culture is too hard? That hgih demands = high stress = high suicide rates?
It could easily be argued that low standards create a far greater problems…we have one of the highest teen murder rates in the world.
Is that what you consider to be the apparent choices - high standards and high suicide rates, or lower standards and even higher murder rates?
It would seem that more of a sense of shame among Americans probably wouldn’t be a bad thing at all, neither would more of an emphasis on achievement.
The thing that America’s economy has that some others don’t is the ability to make a good living in various trades (carpentry, electrical work, masonry, etc). There’s no shame in maming an honest living as a tradesman, but there is in failing to live up to one’s potential or to engage in impulsive, reckless and irresponsible actions.
Comment by JMK — 11.28.06 @ 6:33 pm
Hey, Dave, I respect your earnestness and appreciate your sincere reply. More of us should practice your restraint.
What I would hope that you understand, the goals that you and I would like to see achieved, are only possible if we all place ourselves in each other’s shoes when we began to pontificate.
Like lashawn said, in her response to Shade, I too am learning. It’s difficult, I’m sure you’ll agree.
I also concur, many of us have made progress in our attitudes about race, However, we have a ways to go.
Comment by Tafaraji — 11.28.06 @ 7:18 pm
Thomas:
Over half of Asians in the U.S., citizens or not, where not born here. So many Asians, at least partially hold on to old country values and norms. If you lived around Asians most of your life, and live in Houston than you know that a large portion of the Vietnamese (ethnic Chinese-Vietnamese (Hoa, or Yuan Nan Huaqiao), Taiwanese, and Mainland Chinese are foreign born. They are a majority in Houston. I lived there too, by Rice University, a few years ago.
I don’t know your age, but there is an Asian American History month has been for at least 10 years.
JMK:
“t would seem that more of a sense of shame among Americans probably wouldn’t be a bad thing at all, neither would more of an emphasis on achievement.”
I do not disagree, I was trying to point out that extremes in any direction are bad.
Comment by Ras — 11.28.06 @ 8:45 pm
Ras,
Yes, it is true that a large portion (probably most) of the Asians living in Houston are immigrants. However, the distinction I was trying make is the difference between Asians who has successfully assimilated and those who haven’t.
To my mind, it’s pretty clear cut that most of my associates in Houston were assimilated into American society and values. I think there is an important distinction between keeping the outward forms of the “old country” and how you actually behave in general society.
Yes, the old ties are still there, but it is no longer the driving force behind their behavior. Going clubbing along Main Street, living apart from the family in apartments or separate homes, even the whole car culture (as ludicrous as I think it is)– all these behaviors are more akin to American behavior than Asian behavior. And I am talking about first generation immigrants, not just the second and third.
Even with all these changes, parents, who have also Americanized to a large degree, still have time to raise their children, get food on the table and push their kids to do better in school.
I moved from Houston about 3 years ago and visit at least once a year. Maybe they celebrate Asian month somewhere in Bellaire because I didn’t see it living on the Northside. I never even heard of it until now.
But anyway, this is digresses from the primary discussion…
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.28.06 @ 9:15 pm
I think Ras (#25 & 26) took the “shame” factor to a ridiculous extreme…
What I took from JMK (#23) was this:
There was a time when people made better choices about their behavior because of the fear of bringing shame upon themselves and their families. Some parts of today’s society (regardless of race) have no shame anymore.
For example:
Just look at out-of-wedlock births - today, it is “no big deal” anymore for a woman (or teenage girl) to get knocked up. My mom (who graduated high school in 1965) seems to recall at least one classmate who moved away for a while, probably because she had gotten pregnant. Yes, there will always be people who participate in sexual activities without the benefit of marriage, but if there were still some measure of shame attached to being unmarried and pregnant, maybe more people (women in particular, since they are the ones who deal most intimately with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy) would be more responsible in their behavior.
Same goes with partaking in illegal drugs, excessive alcohol consumption and other destructive or criminal behavior, or not performing to the best of one’s ability in school…
Comment by Miss Ladybug — 11.28.06 @ 9:44 pm
I am Hispanic…my last name should give that away easily. I attended and graduated from UCLA back in 1985.
I do realize that you had asked for Asians to chime in…my perspective is slightly different. Throughout my years at UCLA I never felt that I did not belong there. Some over the years had tried to make me feel like I did not get to UCLA on my merit and hard work but because of “diversity”. Had to live with that for years… It’s their ignorance not mine… Those simple minded people that think that quotas or “lowering the standards” so that they can feel good about attending a university are doing this country and Blacks a disservice.
By the way, even back in 1985 there were many Asians… in fact we had an inside joke… University of Caucasians Lost in Asians
Comment by Fernando Caballero — 11.28.06 @ 9:53 pm
Thomas
Did you attend Shotwell Middle School (Aldine ISD) in the early 1980s?
Comment by James — 11.28.06 @ 11:04 pm
“Diversity” is only skin-deep. “Tolerance” means if you agree with me and share my agenda, you’re okay.
“I’m Okay, You’re Okay” was written before all this PC garbage came into being!
Comment by Vicki Small — 11.28.06 @ 11:29 pm
James,
Well, yes, I attended Shotwell. Hadn’t thought about that place in years… But that was in the early 1990’s.
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.29.06 @ 12:57 am
You know Lashawn, I really don’t get this. While I agree that there are a lot of things wrong in the black community and what you usually point out, it’s as if all you do is focus on the negative. Everytime, there’s something that goes wrong in the black community, you seem to nitpick and just find everything that doesn’t agree.
The black community definitely has a lot of issues and things that aren’t working on the moment.
But, why always focus on the negative, there’s so much positiveness, a rich, flourishing culture and community.
Every community has its flaw, whether it’s the majority white community, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, ect….. there’s good, bad and ugly in every type of groups.
It’s your blog, so of course you post what you want to, but everyday to post something about what’s not working, and the negative issues, I just don’t get.
Again, I agree with what you say on what’s not working in the black community, but it’s rare to read about something positive about the black community in this blog.
And there’s a lot. You complain about the guy at the railroad who feels oppressed, I just can say the same thing about you, it’s as if, you have nothing to celebrate, be proud of when it comes to the black community.
I just see so much generalization about the issues, education, single mother, drugs, violence, these days they tend to be generalized and applied to the “entire” black population of the states when they’re as much as successful and flourishing blacks as they are unsuccessful and no go oder. You have a tendency of generalizing and lumping blacks into people of a failed community.
There are many blacks who can read properly, have good jobs, go to college, raise families ect….. just as the opposite. Why always focus on the negative.
There’s always going to be things that don’t work, you can’t expect a Utopian community.
Every society, culture, community, nation has its shares of successful and unsuccessful people.
The world is getting even more messed up, it isn’t just the black community, it’s everywhere around, society has deteriorated as a whole. Bill Reilly was just reading a study about the growing single income households in America, and declining rates of marriages ect…. and was making a point that blacks only make up 13% of the population.
In this cynical world we live in, I just try to focus on the positive and not the negative.
I’m not saying that you hate your race or anything, but it seems to me as I never hear any pride in your heritage (people should be proud of their heritage who they are, black, white, Asian, Hispanic), post after post every time I venture here it’s another discussion on the failure of the black community. How about the failure of the American society and the world, why always focus on the negative aspects of one particular group.
Comment by derek — 11.29.06 @ 1:07 am
La Shawn Barber looks at the other non-White meat.
Pingback by Basil's Blog — 11.29.06 @ 6:03 am
I agree that intellect has nothing to do with skin-color and that hard working black Americans who are provided the equal opportunities that they deserve can achieve just as much as any other group. I also agree that there are very real psychological, moral and spiritual challenges that black Americans must overcome to realize their full potential and contribute their best to this society. What I question though is how far the comparison between blacks and Asians can go before you run into the problem that our historical experiences in America have not been identitical. Black people in America today did not fall out of the sky in 2006 into a land of milk and honey where if you just work really hard you can achieve all that you desire. We were also not “immigrants” or even “refugees” in the way that Asians were and have been. One of the weaknesses of the arguments I see in many of the comments made on this blog is that thry are made as if slavery, Jim Crow segregation, lynching, systemic police brutality etc, simply never happened or if they did, they are somehow irrelevant to our analysis of black Americans in the society today. The impact of centuries of oppression based on skin color did not simply vanish because blacks were allowed to vote (one generation ago)or because some of us were given the opportunity to attain middle class status. Let me be clear, I am a proud son of black parents, both of whom came up from poverty in the segregated South and are now solidly educated, middle-class Americans with successful black children. But I cannot ignore the fact that their own parents and grandparents were not poor simply because of defects of their character. I can also not ignore the very real wounds that my parents have from succeeding in spite of racism. The need for healing among black Americans is very real and that is not simply a matter of legislation, its about love, love of God, love of ourselves, and love of our fellow human beings. This is what will allow us to finally be free of the self-defeating mentality that you rightly confront LaShawn. I guess what I’m looking for is that the very necessary critique that you offer and the folks who offer comments on your blog, be balanced with an equal level of compassion.
Comment by Phillipe — 11.29.06 @ 7:06 am
“I do not disagree, I was trying to point out that extremes in any direction are bad.” (Ras)
I don’t disagree with you there. Our only disagreement might be in that I feel our current American society is approaching the extreme other end of that spectrum.
As uncomfortable as such real discussions of race/ethnicity are, I believe they are extremely necessary, because all sides labor under many misconceptions about the other.
In my view, I think the ideological divide is far deeper and more divisive than is the ethnic/racial divide.
Miss Ladybug you understood perfectly well.
“Shame” is a major component of decency, just as humility is the foundation for all other virtue.
As personal humility has been increasingly derided in today’s society, any sense of “shame” has been lost and that’s not a good thing.
“Diversity” itself is an artifical concept. In fact, many of those who most fervently endorse “ethnic diversity” are some of the most profound ideological bigots in existance.
The truth is that “ethnic diversity” is value neutral. It, like race/ethnicity, is NEITHER a positive nor a negative.
If “ethnic diversity” were a positive than it wouldn’t be true that more homogenuous populations are inherantly more stable - Japan and Iceland are two good examples.
Now they very well be far less “interesting,” but not necessarily “bettr” in any demonstrable way.
In fact, no group, no country, no culture can function without a unifying set of principles - a common language, culture and morality.
““Diversity†is only skin-deep. “Tolerance†means if you agree with me and share my agenda, you’re okay.” ” (Vicki)
While your first statement is rightfully true, it’s sad that the second statement is true for so many.
“Diverstiy” ends at ideology’s door. Just look at how the “liberal” “diversity-friendly” mainstream media treat the likes of Mike Steele and Condi Rice.
Comment by JMK — 11.29.06 @ 8:40 am
I agree with Phillipe. it’s all about compassion. There’s a lack of compassion these days in our society in every aspect of it.
I also agree that you cannot brush off issues of slavery, discrimination ect…. as it’s the trend today, people dismissing it as it’s a “thing of the past”
I see it more as generational curses that we haven’t found out how to deal with it and still has somewhat of an effect.
Lots of it is played by the society here as well. I agree that there are lot of things that aren’t working int the black community.
But someone was telling me is that there’s just a lack of “black is beautiful” in our society.
The media, society always focuses on aspects that aren’t working in the black community. One guest was saying it on O’Reilly, the reason you find more crimes, more violence, more drugs in black community is simply because if you’re always targeting one group, you’re going to find the flaw.
His argument was that there’s crime, violence, drugs in pre-dominantly white communities as well. Statistics show that there are more white doing drugs than black on a proportion level.
There’s always a focus on putting out the negative of one race, and promoting the negative of another race.
Compare the O.J Simpson Trial craze with the Scott Petterson case.
Compare the Michael Jackson baby dangling and the late Australian animal explorer who dangled his baby in front of a wild animal.
Who got more bashed Justin or Janet in the Superbowl incident.
You never hear stories about little black girls being kidnapped.
How many times have they referred to Dempsey from Grey’s anatomy as a hunk, what about Washington.
you watch a lot of the ET, Access Hollywood stuff, it’s very occasionally for them to put the work sexy, hunk next to a black celebrity.
Linking this to Black Africans. Any image you get of Africa is poverty, poverty and war and uncivilized people, I’ve been to Africa and there’s a lot more than poverty and war.
Do people ever consider a location for Africa for vacation, barely.
I gave you these few examples just to refer to just the images you get of the “black” race in general whether it’s from America or Africa.
I don’t know but let’s put it this way, if babies had the option of choosing their race before they were born with all the knowledge of race, I don’t think they’ll choose to be black.
I’m not blaming any group or anything, I’m just saying that to work we need more positive images, a notion of black feeling attractive.
I was reading about a gay couple who had adopted a black kid. One parent was complaining that all black kids ever aspired to be were athletes or entertainers. He said he wanted his son to have an MBA not be on the NBA.
Why not doctors, lawyers, teachers, president of the US.
I think we need to start focusing on the positive in order to rid the negative.
Comment by Derek — 11.29.06 @ 10:53 am
Hmmm.
On the pushy mothers schtick:
I think there’s a lot of similarities between asian mothers and, quite frankly, jewish mothers. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But watching a jewish friend of mine being harangued by his mother brought back fond memories of my own.
“when are you getting married?”
“when am I going to be a grandmother?”
“why haven’t you been promoted lately?”
“when are you going to make more money?”
“when are you getting married?”
“so what if you’re doing well. why aren’t you doing better?”
“your cousin has his own business. just saying, no pressure.”
“when are you getting married?”
“are you working on your next degree?”
Ahhhh. Home.
Comment by ed — 11.29.06 @ 11:12 am
Hmmm.
If “slavery, discrimination” etc were of such magnitude then please explain why it’s effects aren’t *more* pronounced with the survivors of the Vietnamese Boat People? People who had to suffer outrageous horrors on the open sea? Or perhaps the survivors of the Cambodian Killing Fields? Or how about survivors of the genocide in Rwanda that immigrated to America? Or the multitude of people who’ve been oppressed all over the world?
How about the Irish? Who were largely considered to be violent drunken vermin suitable for only the most demeaning jobs a 150 years ago? That’s well within the boundries of African-American slavery isn’t it? Or how about the Chinese Exclusion Act? The *law* that prevented asians from becoming citizens of America until it was repealed in 1945? Was there discrimination against asians after that repeal? Sure there was.
Why out of the vast multitude of people out there who have experienced oppression the one and only group incapable of getting beyond these issues are African-Americans?
It’s really rather odd.
Comment by ed — 11.29.06 @ 11:23 am
Actually, believe it or not it all comes down to skin and race. Now, i’m sure in this site, I’ll probably get laughed at for what I’m saying, but I’m saying it anyway.
Lots of minorities group when they came, italians, irish, jewish, germans, asians and hispanic in the early 20th century were all considered to be on the same level of blacks.
They rose up because they could easily intergrate into the so-called dominant white society.
PBS had a documentary where they explained race, and the notion about how they were what was called upper whites and lower whites. The former being anglo-nordic physical features, the latter being the darker, meditaraneean physical feature.s
There’s no doubt that these groups faced a lot racism, isolation for their culture and religion, but unlike blacks, the documentary showed that it was easier for them to integrate into the dominant American society than blacks.
Meaning that these minorities more or less were able to achieve their American dream quicker. second year Irish, Italians, or non-black immigrant could have easily reaped the benefits of the GI bill for instance or any other benefits and opportunity that blacks could before 1964.
and again, it’s skin color, the black race is totally different in terms of physical features, hair features, facial features than other races. Whites, Asians, Hispanic, the variations is only in complexion and few facial features, but the features whether it’s the hair, or
For instance one study about interracial relationships showed that white families were more likely to accept Asian or hispanic in their family as opposed to black because it’s closer to white.
The PBS documentary basically explained that those groups who were closer to whites could easily marry off, integrate into the the white society as opposed to black.
An Irish, German or Italian immigrants, faced hardships but eventually their offsprings would be able to reap more easily in a pre 1964 era that a black great great grandchild of a slave.
I’m not dismissing that people haven’t suffered, all groups have suffered, including the first groups who came to America as they ran away from the oppression in Europe.
But it’s still a matter of race, and skin color. In this day and age, we can all be successful, but what I said in my previous thread, I just think African American need a little more promotion of what I refer to as “black is beautiful”
I’ve been to many places in Africa. There’s a vast difference between Africans and African Americans, I feel that Africans are more confident, more proud and studies shows that non-american black immigrants are more successful than african americans.
It all lies in self esteem.
Muhammed Ali said in 1974 when he went to fight in Zaire, that he was shocked, he thought Africa was what he saw in Tarzan, but he said, the africans had their own plane, their own president, their own stars.
And lots of Africans would tell you that their countries may not be as advanced or developed but they’re much better off in Africa. Again, Africa isn’t what you see here on TV, I visited many countries, there’s a lot of everything, building, successful doctors, lawyers, business man ect…. just like there’s a lot of things that don’t work. There’s good, bad and ugly.
Africa has 52 countries, so there’s a lot of flourishing societies, different cultures and positiveness. You hear about the negative issues of a couple of countries.
It’s as if you all heard about Europe were the issues that were coming form unstable society. But no, Europe is mostly associated with the prosperous western europe.
But Africa it’s poverty and AIDS. Even though, it’s only a portion of the continent that’s being affected.
Notice how you would never hear anything positive that comes from Arica
It used to be the same for Asia, but you hear more positivity from the Asian continent than the African continent.
One woman I talked to worked as an accountant for a major wood company and she said that why would she go to the US and struggle. Her lifestyle pretty much is proportionate with her income.
In other words, despite all the issues, Carribbeans and African Americans tend to have a higher self esteem because they live in pre-dominantly black society where the president is black, the managers are black, the rich folks are blacks, the professional are blacks there’s a positive image of black.
In america, if a black kid told his father he wanted to be president, despite the whole you can be what you want to be speech, in reality the kid would be dreaming because
In America, African Americans are a minority group who came without their own choice and have been here before many many immigrants, but because of their different race and skin color which used to and still put people off. so they stayed behind while other minority group were able to easily merge into the dominant white society.
Again, these are my opinions. I’m not saying, I’m right, I’m not saying I’m Wrong. I’m not saying you have to believe me. I’m just saying that’s what I believe.
Comment by Derek — 11.29.06 @ 11:50 am
Derek, while I get some of your point, much of it is also just flat out wrong. For instance, “One guest was saying it on O’Reilly, the reason you find more crimes, more violence, more drugs in black community is simply because if you’re always targeting one group, you’re going to find the flaw.â€
Denying a truth doesn’t change a truth.
Crime stats are just that, a record of crimes and who’s perpetrated them and where.
There aren’t “more murders in the black community because police are looking for more murderers there,†there ARE more murders in that community because more murders are being committed there.
Despite Guiliani’s (actually Bill Bratton’s) harshness and his being reviled in New York’s black community (“It’s Giuliani timeâ€) Bratton’s policies reduced the murder rate in NYC from over 2,000/year under former Mayor David Dinkins (a black Liberal) to under 500/year and in the process, the despised Giuliani administration saved many hundreds, if not thousands of black lives in the process!
If your argument is that perception (for instance the view that blacks commit more acts of random street violence) effects police and public policy, THAT may well be true. It was also true for cabbies in NYC (the vast majority of them non-white) who avoided picking up single black males and taking them to “potentially dangerous locations,†in the wake of a rash of cabbie shootings, virtually all done by minorities in minority neighborhoods.
In the ensuing firestorm of controversy, I recall thinking that most of the protestors had misplaced their anger. The cabbies didn’t deserve their wrath. Most of the cabbies were poor immigrants who assessed the risks versus the potential rewards of each fare and did what all workers try to do – to seek out the most reward for the least amount of risk.
The protestor’s anger SHOULD’VE been aimed at those few miscreants within their own communities who “ruined it for everyone,†by engaging in predatory behavior.
And these examples;
“Compare the O.J Simpson Trial craze with the Scott Petterson case.â€
Derek, Simpson was wrongly acquitted, while Peterson was rightly convicted and sentenced to death. Simpson was still embraced by some, while Scott Peterson was reviled by ALL. I don’t get the point here.
“Compare the Michael Jackson baby dangling and the late Australian animal explorer who dangled his baby in front of a wild animal.â€
Again Derek, Michael Jackson’s “baby dangling†came on the heels of his much publicized “child love,†and an interview with the late Ed Bradley where he astoundingly remarked that even in the wake of his ordeal he saw nothing wrong or untoward with having an unrelated child sleep in the same bed with him!
Steve Irwin took tremendous heat for his own stunt, but since he’s based in Australia, it was less a media event here than it was in his home country.
“Who got more bashed Justin or Janet in the Superbowl incident.”
OK, this one is easy. For better or worse, Justin Timberlake is seen as an airhead. If either of those two were going to arrange a stunt like that, in most sensible people’s mind’s, it would most likely have been Janet Jackson who planned it, as Justin Timberlake seems to lack the imagination for such things…and to boot, it was Ms. Jackson’s breast that was exposed…it was HER “wardrobe malfunction!â€
Derek despite the past, despite any perceived odds stacked against any of us, we ALL must take individual responsibility for our own actions and arguments like these just seem to seek to excuse doing the opposite.
Comment by JMK — 11.29.06 @ 11:53 am
Ed there is a difference between discrimination and oppression.
There is also a difference between outside discrimination or oppression that is temporary (like a generation or two) where people remeber what it was liek before and can share this with new generations and people who have been oppressed for hundreds of years.
There is a difference between being oppressed for hundreds of years and being allowed to keep your culture, your identity, your religion and being oppressed for hundreds of years, having your culture stripped from you and replaced with completely (basically cultural genocide) with a culture that whose sole purpose was to make you a good servant, a culture that does not teach upward mobility, praise education etc…
Black in America experienced the latter…no group you mentioned above had went through that.
Even Irish people who were oppressed for centuries by the English were still Irish even if there language changed. They were still Catholic, they had their myths, their history…the English (later the British) could not wipe that out.
THe story would have been far different if the English took a few thousand Irish as slaves thousands of miles away and somehow marked them (so they were physically different, visible minorities) and then made them Anglican, did not allow them to learn to read or write, do basic math, etc, taught them all Celtic people (like them) were inferior, did not allow them to legally marry (even encouraged out of wedlock birth)…the list goes on for a few hundred years, then one day say “you are free, act equal”…then about 10 years after freedom enact Jim Crow lows for another 100 years, then 40 years ago say “you are free, and you are legally equal so act equal and catch up with everyone else despite the fact you have a cultural of inferiority and many people outside your group (who are the majority still see you as inferior).
How do you think the Irish would do then??
Comment by Ras — 11.29.06 @ 11:59 am
>>I never hear any pride in your heritage (people should be proud of their heritage who they are, black, white, Asian, Hispanic)>>
Why? What is there about “heritage” that should make someone proud? If you should be proud of your heritage, does that mean that if your predecessors are unknown or criminals that you should be ashamed? I understand that heritage gives you something to look up to, but in the long run, it’s what _you_ do that makes you, not what your forebears have done.
Comment by suek — 11.29.06 @ 12:05 pm
Reading all this about Asians made me think about the recent Michael Richards rant, and how the “leaders of the black community” weighed in on it. Who are the “leaders of the Asian community”? And who are the leaders of the white and Hispanic community?
Comment by CJ — 11.29.06 @ 12:11 pm
While I understand some of your points Derek, some of them are ill-defined and many of them are just flat out wrong, such as; “One guest was saying it on O’Reilly, the reason you find more crimes, more violence, more drugs in black community is simply because if you’re always targeting one group, you’re going to find the flaw.â€
Denying a truth doesn’t change a truth, Derek.
Crime stats are just that, cold statistics that show what crimes occurred, who committed them and where.
There are not “more murders in the black community simply because police look for more murderers there.†There are more murders in that community because more murders are committed in those areas.
Former NYC Mayor Giuliani’s (actually Bill Bratton’s) “harshness†brought the murder rate in NYC down from over 2,000/year under previous Mayor David Dinkins (a black Liberal) to under 500/year, saving many thousands of black lives over the course of his tenure, despite being reviled in the black community (“It’s Guiliani timeâ€).
A few years ago NYC had a firestorm of protest over cabbies refusing to pick up black fares, especially black male fares.
Turns out the vast majority of these cabbies were non-white immigrants who avoided picking up young black males in the wake of a series of well publicized cabbie shootings, virtually all perpetrated by minorities in minority neighborhoods.
These cabbies were engaging in what is commonly called “risk analysis.â€
I recall thinking about how misplaced all these protestor’s anger was. It shouldn’t have been directed at all these poor immigrant cab drivers, who only did what every working person tries to do, pursue the most reward, with the least risk.†It is doubtful that any of the protestors themselves would’ve behaved much differently than the cabbies if the shoe had been placed on the other foot. The protestor’s anger SHOULD’VE been directed at the few miscreants within their own community who engaged in predatory behaviors that “ruined the quality of life for everyone in that community.â€
Some of your other examples are equally puzzling; “Compare the O.J Simpson Trial craze with the Scott Petterson case.â€
Derek, while OJ was apparently wrongly acquitted (judging from the results of the Civil Trial), Scott Peterson was rightly convicted and sentenced to death.
While Simpson is still beloved by many, Peterson is reviled by ALL, so I don’t get your point here.
“Compare the Michael Jackson baby dangling and the late Australian animal explorer who dangled his baby in front of a wild animal.â€
Again Derek, Jackson’s “baby dangling†came on the heels of his well publicized and scandalous espousing of “man-child love†and his astounding response to the late Ed Bradley that even in the wake of his ordeal, he still saw nothing wrong, or untoward with having an unrelated child sleep with him in the same bed!
Steve Irwin took a tremendous amount of heat for his stunt, both here and in his native Australia, but since he’s not based here it was less of a media event here than it was in Irwin’s homeland.
“Who got more bashed Justin or Janet in the Superbowl incident.â€
OK, this one’s an easy one. First, Justin Timberlake is known, for better or worse, as an airhead…a “mimbo,†if you will. So, the conventional wisdom was, if either of those two were going to plan such a stunt, that task would probably have to fall to Janet Jackson, given Mr. Timberlake’s noted lack of imagination. Besides that, it was Ms. Jackson’s breast! It was her “wardrobe malfunction.†That’s why she was the focus of that controversy.
The idea that “the legacy of slavery and segregation have left blacks handicapped,†is both demeaning (to blacks) and dishonest, as the black family remained in tact and strong right up until the late 1960s when modern welfare rules forced men out of the home and mired many millions of America’s poor, both black and white in virtual perpetual poverty.
Bottomline, regardless of the past and regardless of all the odds we perceive to be stacked against any of us, we are each responsible for our own actions and their consequences. You seem to be seeking some excuse from that, when none exists.
Comment by JMK — 11.29.06 @ 12:49 pm
“And who are the leaders of the white and Hispanic community?”
There is I believe a Latino/Hispanic leadership summit.
I don’t enjoy Googling ‘White Community’ for obvious reasons in the top results :-/
Comment by JohnD — 11.29.06 @ 1:02 pm
It’s clear just from the tenor of this debate that multiculturalism is as divisive as ever. The assimilation model that America had before all these “-isms” worked wonderfully for all Americans.
America is an idea sown together by a common language and a common reverence for two revolutionary documents - The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. All who immigrate and live in America are free to have these ideas imbued in their hearts and minds.
Multiculturalism and their concomitant ideologies say that differences are more important than what we all hold in common. It is the poison of this age that insists on being different, when to be fully human is to acknowledge and take delight in finding commonality, that is, having affinity and empathy for you fellow man.
It’s not what separates us but what we share that’s important, not the mere accident of our skin tone. It’s like saying, “I’m more special than you because I have black hair and you have blond hair.” It’s patently ridiculous.
Immigrants left their country for a reason, and I don’t believe it is to carry their centuries of hatred along with the luggage.
Multiculturalism, in its logic, undoes this. The reversion to factionalism, tribalism, and old ethnic hatreds are the fruits of this enlightened philosophy, not tolerance and magnanimity.
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.29.06 @ 1:24 pm
This comment is for Ed who listed a variety of groups of people who have experienced oppression historically and asks why African American are the only group who can’t seem to “get over” their history. First of all there are many, many blacks like my parents who have in fact achieved a great deal in spite of racism. In fact if you look at the history there have always been blacks who achieved remarkable things, even during the slave period. The question is, are those blacks who have not achieved as much simply stupid or immoral? This is what is implied by much of the discussion about the challenges facing black people. Such a view is overly simplistic and ignores both history and social science.
Secondly, the notion that Asians are a model minority who don’t have any of the problems that blacks have is a myth, especially so called “boat people” and others who have experienced massive trauma. Anyone who provides social services in these commmunities will tell you that many Asians are involved in gangs, addiction, domestic violence, depression, suicide and yes, many of them are poorly educated and live in poverty just like blacks, whites, Native Americans and Hispanics. These studies suggesting that Asians are higher achievers are based on the “cream of the crop” of Asian communities not on Asians in general which is a diverse group, just like all Americans. We need to learn from all people who have shown resiliency in the face of oppression and discrimination so that the circle of success can be expanded to include greater numbers of Americans off all backgrounds. This would be of much greater use to our country than playing the tired game of “which ethnic group is the best”.
Comment by Phillipe — 11.29.06 @ 1:30 pm
Thomas - While I can certainly understand and respect the rationality of what you are saying, I’m not an immigrant nor will I ever be. My ancestors didn’t come to these shores by choice and thought I have become an American (with the help of laws and because of the actions of courageous people) and have assimilated into the mainstream, I can’t view this country through your viewpoint. TO be honest immigrants of African descent often can assimilate better into the mainstream because they don’t have this country’s horrible racial baggage upon their backs. I have an MBA in finance and there are still some who will assume I didn’t earn my way.
But I can’t do anything about that. I can however live my life the best way I can. I’ve long since given up trying to change minds.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 11.29.06 @ 1:36 pm
Hmmm.
1. I don’t think there is a “leadership” of the asian community. For one thing there really isn’t any such thing as an “asian community”. For most asians, IMHO, we’re less asians and more American-whatever. I.e. I frankly view myself as an American but will self-identify if pushed as an American-Korean.
But there really isn’t to my mind as much community between Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc etc. The languages, cultures, histories and even food is pretty different.
*shrug* of course, YMMV.
2. I think Derek is making assumptions that the Irish assimilated in only a generation or two. This I don’t think is the fact. The Irish Potato Famine, i.e. “The Great Hunger”, was in 1845-1849 and constituted the bulk of Irish immigration into America with subsequent waves of Irish immigration that followed, but with smaller numbers. WikiPedia.
So you had a massive influx of extremely poor and largely uneducated Irish peasantry entering into America’s eastern cities all within a very short span of time. And none of this had anything to do with the GI bill or anything even close to 1964. We’re talking 1840’s here. Additionally much of America at that time was Protestant while the Irish were Roman Catholic that was also an additional bar against assimilation.
I’d suggest googling but here’s a link that might help: link
*shrug* Frankly I think a lot of people forget that there were varying layers to being “white”. So much so that there really wasn’t anything remotely like it. Instead the divisions were more along religious and ethnic lines that prevented the creation of a singular “white” identity for a long time.
Anybody remember one of the big debates in the early 1960’s? The question of whether or not a *Catholic* could be elected President. And then JFK got himself elected.
Personally I view anybody who puts race first to be somewhat misguided. And anyone who tries to explain away personal failure on the basis of what happened to his grandfather to be far more than misguided.
Comment by ed — 11.29.06 @ 1:41 pm
Hmmmm.
Sure those people have problems, but I wouldn’t say that they had any *more* problems than any other group. The very things you outline are problems in almost every ethnic group, age group and community in America.
But what you don’t see are these people screaming that it’s somehow all the fault of white people. You also don’t see these people screaming that it’s up to white people to fix the problems either.
*shrug* perhaps I’m less than sympathetic. But I had an exceedingly difficult childhood as an AmerAsian child in South Korea in the 1960’s where I frankly think I experienced far more oppression and discrimination that I think most of today’s blacks ever have.
Or maybe my skewed viewpoint is due to being raised in the wilds of rural New Hampshire where I was the only non-white kid in my county. Which result I won’t get into because it’s pretty obvious.
have some women choosen not to date me because I’m asian? Sure. Have I not gotten jobs I was certain I should have? Sure. Was it because I’m asian? *shrug* no idea but the explanations I was given were pretty odd. Did I get into fistfights because I’m asian? Yes I have. Have I had a drunk WWII veteran attack me because he thought I was Japanese? Yeah that’s happened too. Have I had employers try and take advantage of me because I’m asian? You bet.
*shrug* but is any of this important to me? Not really. It happened. It sucked. But anybody who lives in the past is someone who can’t live in the now or the in the future.
Maybe all of this is horribly un-PC of me but frankly I view most complaints by black people to be unmitigated whining. And yes I accept that my viewpoint could be completely wrong. I’ve been wrong before and I will be wrong in the future. And nothing I write should be construed being some sort of collective opinion of other asians in these comments, they are entirely my own.
But I went from an impoverished half-breed child of a prostitute in South Korea to a successful computer programer here in America. And along the way I’ve run into problems and had issues. But my faults are my own and my responsibility. So I find when people try to shift responsibility for faults to others to be extremely suspect.
*shrug* as always, YMMV.
Comment by ed — 11.29.06 @ 2:05 pm
Thomas -
Small world. I attended Shotwell in the early 1980s and graduated from Eisenhower in 1988. I am black.
There was a Thomas Nguyen who attended Shotwell at the same time as I did. Even in middle school, we used to have the same kinds of arguments that are going back and forth in this thread.
Comment by James — 11.29.06 @ 2:08 pm
Derek, I am neither proud nor ashamed of my ethnic heritage. It has nothing to do with who or what I am. I personally am accountable for what I am. My real ethnic heritage is “American.”
Comment by Dave — 11.29.06 @ 2:12 pm
Ed - I can respect your opinion. Although I’m not sure I’d want to interact with you in real life as I don’t think black people’s complaints are ALL whining, at least you put it out there.
Comment by Tiffany in Houston — 11.29.06 @ 2:21 pm
JMK, you probably didn’t get my point, but I knew most people on this blog wouldn’t understand.
I’m not going to try to re-explain myself or anything. It’s one of those things where people either get what you’re trying to say or nitpick what you say by generalisations.
All I have to say about statistics on blacks, is that I’ve lived in pre-dominantly white neighborhood all my life and all these issues people are talking are wrong about the black community are very well existing in many white communities I lived in.
But if you’re only targeting one group, of course the stats are going to show more of that group.
As for the trial, I’m talking not about the sentencing, I was talking about the coverage of the trial the simpson trial coverage didn’t get as much craziness as the Peterson trial
,
I’m not approving what’s going in the black community nor am I saying “it’s the white man’s fault or let’s blame the white man”
But I’m just tired or can’t stand the notion that racism is long gone or whenever someone brings out discrimination these days, the person is unjustly judged as another one of those “angry minority”
Racism, racial profiling, discrimination, unequality ect…. still strongly exists today in the American society and that’s one of the reason whether I’m debating to stay in the country after
the problem is that people cry discrimination at the wrong instances and people dismiss discrimination saying that it’s another one of those angry minority.
All I am saying is that there needs to be more promotion of self esteem that’s all.
Again, people experience life as a personal journey, I know what I see, feel or experience and can’t really experience, see or feel what other people go through.
From my experience and what I noticed on daily basis, I don’t see any promotion of what could be called “black is beautiful”, it’s always a beatdown on what has failed, that to me is the real problem a lack of self-esteem, self worth.
Who’s to blame I don’t know, but pointing the finger won’t do much. Doing something about it will do much.
People choose what they want to hear or believe but everyone experience life their own way.
It’s pyschological and sociological. Homogenous societies are much more stable.
Despite all the diversity and all, if you’re not an openly straight, white, male in the United States, you’re gonna have to work twice harder to achieve success.
Again, I go to the baby reference if all of us here had gotten the choice as to what race we would pick knowing the situations in race relations and everything, I’m suspecting not that I can be 100% sure that we would have chosen to be all white.
Again, I agree with all the issues that Lashawn points out in the black community. I’m just saying that she seems to talk more about negative issues or when blacks have done something wrong.
For instance, for someone who says she likes to talk about race, I was waiting to see her reaction in the Michael Richards scandal on how he cursed out two blacks in his audience making references to the N word and lynching.
Something tells me that had a major black comedian have made out racial slurs to whites in the audience, I’m getting the feeling that Lashawn would have talked about it.
Talk is cheap really, I always say that if people are dissastified about something then what are they doing about it. It’s one thing to point out the flaws, but it’s another thing to erase the flaws.
Comment by derek — 11.29.06 @ 2:46 pm
I don’t think that’s the gist of Ed’s comments Tiffany, but I can’t speak for Ed.
Maybe what all this shows is how different people perceive the same things differently and how our own specific ethnic/racial prisms play a part in that. In some instances and over some issues, it’s amazing we can communicate at all, as all too often the very same words mean very different things to different people.
Comment by JMK — 11.29.06 @ 2:53 pm
Bottom line is that America has too many domestic issues in terms of people to be considered the best nation in the planet (if there’s such a thing) unless you’re looking at an economical point of view.
I’ve lived in various places and I’ve seen healthier societies maybe not wealthy society, but much more functional. Like an old boss of mine used to say “no matter how successful a business are, it is nothing without a strong staff”
I would say the same thing, to me it lies on the people for the strenght of a nation.
An african proverb says that “the ruin of a nation begins in the home of its people.”
I will never know what it would be like to experience life as a an asian, hispanic, or white person, same way a white person will never understand what it’s like to live in a country that promotes one group from politics, to media, to entertainment to all other aspects and if you’re a minority, you just have a different experience at getting there and living it.
You may be labelled as “angry minority” or whatever, but no will know your experience or feelings until they’ve experiences, you can’t make up what your perceive, feel or experience, even if they’re wrong, you’re just experiencing what you’re living.
What I love about America is that it’s a very practical nation.
Comment by derek — 11.29.06 @ 2:55 pm
Tiffany,
There’s no doubt in my mind that Blacks are treated different under the law and broader society.
America has come a long, long way since the civil rights era - actually, American civil rights is something the world has never seen before, and not likely to see again - but I submit to you that the current problem is not the residual effects of slavery over a century ago but both multiculturalism and victimology.
These twin diseases plague the Black community.
I don’t think “Preferred Minority Status” is the way to go. It suggests that Blacks are unable to achieve as well as other races, a handicap in society if you will, and I just don’t think that’s true.
James,
Small world, indeed.
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.29.06 @ 3:07 pm
Derek, there are certainly crimes in the white community - and those crimes get reported, charges are filed and people brought to trial and convicted.
I grew up on Staten Island (predominantly white) and worked in the South Bronx (predominantly black and Hispanic) and I’ll tell you what we never had in Staten Island - “Squeegge men,” those vagrants who stood at the exit ramps of highways to extort money from motorists, specifically targeting female motorists.
You know why?
Cause some of the local citizenry would “convince” those vagrants that they were involved in a very “high risk” venture, if you get my meaning.
Same thing with domestic violence - it isn’t ignored in a residential community of single family houses. Your neighbors are going to warn you the first time, try “straightening you out the second,” time and have you locked up the third.
I can attest that there are no gangs of teens swaggering through the residential streets of places like Staten Island, Riverdale & City Island in the Bronx, or Canarsie and Bay Ridge in Brooklyn. It doesn’t happen because people in those communities won’t stand for it.
There are no prostitutes walking the streets of those areas, no punks slinging drugs either…and for the same reason above - the people in those places won’t stand for it.
There were however armies of “squeegee men” at most of the South Bronx exits of the Cross Bronx Expressway, and there were lots of thugs openly slinging drugs along those streets and all along Jerome Avenue, there were lots of prostitutes openly plying their trade.
Again, the stats don’t lie and stats aren’t “manipulated” by law enforcement.
The reason I worked in the South Bronx for nearly twenty years is that’s where the fires were.
I wanted to work in a busy firehouse and I wound up in one of the busiest and best - Engine-92 and Ladder-44 on Morris Avenue btw 168th & 169th Streets.
There were MORE fires in that area (Morrisania) and more murders too…in short, there was a lot more of EVERYTHING bad in that area. You know why I know? Not only did I work there, but the people who were victimized by these crimes also reported those crimes and they were virtually all minorities as well. There’s no reason for black people to accuse other black of murders they didn’t commit…so common sense tells you, that doesn’t happen. Crimes need victims, just as occupied structural fires require buildings - there are bodies and burned out apartments to attest to the mayhem in those areas, you don’t have the same in places like Staten Island and Riverdale.
If there were as many murders in places like Staten Island, they’d be reported by the people of SI and the cops in that area would be arresting a lot more people and the crime stats would reflect that.
Derek, on that point, “crime stats lie,” you couldn’t be more wrong.
Comment by JMK — 11.29.06 @ 3:17 pm
Derek,
I don’t agree with your assessment of America in comparison to other countries.
You said: “…to me it lies on the people for the strength of a nation.”
America give more money and charity throughout the world than the rest of the world combined. That gives a pretty compelling window into the American people. If what you see on the media is representative of America, everyone, I mean EVERYONE would have been the victims of violent crimes by the time their old enough to vote.
To me, the American order is the best order I have yet to encounter. What JMK said about crime statistics lying is true other most nations. In Germany I have a friend who saw minorities, Arabs and Blacks, being killed and maimed in the 1990’s almost on a daily basis. And yet during that period, Germany reported a very low crime rate. Brown-skinned people aren’t people in Germany, you see…
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 11.29.06 @ 3:54 pm
Derek, a lot of us are disturbed by Michael Richard’s comments. I posted about it in the previous thread. It’s not okay and I won’t be making excuses for him, and while I can’t speak for her, I’d guess that LaShawn wouldn’t either. What does bother me, though, is that many blacks, comedians as well as politicians, ROUTINELY make racist comments about whites and Jews and NO ONE says anything about it. Debbie Schlussel’s blog today has an entry enumerating all the horrible racist comments Jesse Jackson has made throughout his career, as well as the comments Al Sharpton has made which has incited blacks to riot and do violence against non blacks. Yet these are still respected and popular leaders in the black community. Why? And Michael Richards has run grovelling to these two racist pigs, asking for the black community’s forgiveness through them. Why? I find it all so weird. Jesse Jackson has called for everyone to boycott Seinfeld Season 7 DVDs — why? Michael Richards had already apologized by that time, and anyway, what have the producers of Seinfeld or any of the other actors done to deserve having their DVD boycotted? And I have yet to see any journalist point out that Jesse Jackson is infamous for calling Jews ‘kikes’ and NYC “hymie town.” They’re happy to report on his scolding and chastising of Michael Richards, though.
The bottom line is that when whites say racist things or commit racist acts of violence, it is all over the news. When blacks do it, it’s understandable because “they’re angry and oppressed” or else the crime is reported as if it is just random and had nothing to do with race hate. It is not okay. There will never be any sort of healing between races until this nonsense is stopped, once and for all, and the rules of the game are fair for everyone, no excuses or passes.
Comment by batyah — 11.29.06 @ 4:07 pm
JMK, that’s what you experienced and observed.
I lived On Long Island, a heavily populated suburb predominatly white, of all the suburbs in America, it’s the surburb with the most cases of AIDS/HIV.
In many well to do neighborhood, I’ve wintnessed many drug dealers.
Local High School bathrooms are filled with drugs and dealing.
A friend of mine kicked her tenant out because he was dealing drugs and her son started doing it.
A couple of weeks ago, two kids were shot and this was in a predominantly so called safe, white, middle class town. the kids were shot by an angry drug dealer. It was like a hit and run.
High School in the suburbs rarely get the students to throw a metal detetector.
I went to high school in Queens, and because you know it was a school full of anything but minorities, we had the metal detal detector every day.
Even when it comes to school funding, inner city schools aren’t as funded as suburban schools.
Meanwhile, the drop out rate in suburban schools are rising. Kids who are practically spoon fed all their lives, only care about getting drunk on weekends and shopping at the local mall.
you hear stories about kids get into car racing while intoxicated in the middle of the Long Island expressway. Again, these kids are white.
Or the story about Columbine high school, the suburban high school violence that occured years ago mainly predominantly white students.
Teen pregnancy is also on the rise on Long Island, as well as divorced households. Sure you don’t see prostitute walking down the streets, but doesn’t mean that there isn’t prostitution, some people do their drugs on the street, others get them prescribed. Some look for sex on the street, others advertise themselves in various website. The mean is different, the end result is the same.
You hear all sorts of wild stories aobut middle class white residents, from sex swing, to drug addiction, one magazine did a story on how the drug meth is affecting millions of so called middle class stable americans and mostly whites.
But yet, you see more police cars in minority neighborhood, you see minority high school kids go through metal detectors.
To me, I look at issues as a whole, affecting the nation, education is a national problem, not just a black problem, it’s failing everywhere,
drugs, violence, divorce, single household family, teenage issues ect,, you address these issues as a whole, not just focusing on how these issues affect a particular group.
Again, I’m not saying “blame the white guy” or anything, I have a feelign I’m being misunderstood,
I’m saying, let’s look at issues and problems that affect our society as a whole.
Again, from what I notice, there’s a tendency to nitpick these problems when you target the black community, when these problems affect all communities ect…….
So if I’m wrong according to you, that’s fine. But the same you’re experiencing your own personal life and observation in your own setting is the same way I’m experiencing what I go through.
I’m not looking to be right or wrong, I’m just sharing my feelings, which You