Update II (11:50 a.m.): Sean McHugh, spokesman for Swift & Company, e-mailed this canned press release (PDF) in non-responsive response to my question about why Swift hires illegal aliens in violation of federal law. It’s mostly a CYA piece of fluff that assures investors and clients that production is back on track and reminds everyone else that no criminal or civil charges have been filed against Swift.
Update (10:13 a.m.): Michelle Malkin reports: “One of the victims [of the raid identity theft] was a Border Patrol agent!”
—————————————————————
Yesterday, federal agents arrested a bunch of illegal aliens working for meat-packing plants owned by Swift & Company after an 11-month identity theft investigation.
(I contacted their media person for comment. I don’t expect to hear back, though.)
But it’s all for show. Why? Unless the government “cracks down” on employers and give them heavy disincentives to hiring illegal aliens, the whole thing’s meaningless.
Whoever does the hiring at these plants has to know by now that non-English speaking, Spanish-speaking people seeking jobs there likely are illegal aliens. At the very least, they need to be trained to spot fake Social Security cards and other documents.
The federal government must change the way it operates, too. There is no coordination between the various agencies, and that makes tracking down illegal aliens more difficult. From the article:
The sweep also highlighted flaws in the main program through which the government helps employers authenticate workers’ identification documents, underscoring how weak government ID requirements and poor coordination with the Social Security Administration have frustrated enforcers for decades. Swift has been participating in the program for years.
…
Although many illegal workers by definition commit document fraud to get jobs, the government’s use of identity theft charges could reframe the immigration debate for the public and spotlight how sharing Social Security data could fight such abuses, she said.
Last summer I linked to an Inspector General’s audit report about the Social Security Administration (SSA). SSA issues nonwork cards to illegal aliens so they can receive welfare, and too many of them are using the nonwork cards to obtain employment. But the people who hire them bear most of the responsibility. The cards display “nonwork” on them.
But that’s not the worst part. Because of the Privacy Act, the SSA is not allowed to tell companies which of their employees are not authorized to work. The Inspector General concluded: “We believe SSA should consider examining its interpretation of existing disclosure laws and, if necessary, seek legislative authority that would allow the Agency to disclose nonwork status to employers.”
So the feds made a big show of “raiding” plants and handcuffing illegal aliens. Big deal. Identity theft is one way to tackle the problem, yes, but yesterday’s raid will mean absolutely nothing if those same illegal aliens end up at other meat-packing plants. DEPORT THEM. HEAVILY FINE THE COMPANIES. Train hiring managers to spot fake documents. Learn how to use employment verification systems already in place.
Links: Michelle Malkin (Also see her latest column, Beware of illegal aliens seeking hazmat licenses), Iowa Voice, Blogs for Bush, Talk Left (makes a good point!), Gun Toting Liberal, Captain’s Quarters, Lonewacko…
Swift was informed that the raid would take place beforehand and fought it in court and lost. According to the following article, Swift estimated that 40% of its 13,000 person workforce would be arrested. Swift is not apparently going to be charged, but they should be. All Swift cares about is cheap labor. They don’t give a hang about complying with laws despite their self rightous outcry.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236204,00.html
I’ve said it before on this blog, unless we all contact our elected representatives, amnesty will pass Congress.
Comment by dianne — 12.13.06 @ 9:39 am
Michelle Malkin has coverage of the whining that has begun after the illegal-immigration raids by ICE. She has a picture of a business owner giving the DHS/ICE bus the “finger†as it drives away.
Pingback by The American Pundit — 12.13.06 @ 10:22 am
“SSA issues nonwork cards to illegal aliens so they can receive welfare….”
That’s not a typo, is it.
Pardon me, I have to go scream now.
[…]
Aaah, that’s better.
Do you have any details/documentation on SSA certifying illegals so they can get welfare??
I need to go write some nastygrams to my congresscritters.
Comment by Ralph Phelan — 12.13.06 @ 11:20 am
The abuse of the SSN has been a constant source of aggravation to me. Clearly on the front of the card it says “Not to be used for identification” (at least on the older cards, though the rule still stands), yet it’s become one of the most abused numbers in our society.
Comment by Mark La Roi — 12.13.06 @ 11:30 am
I grew up in a rural area near Marshalltown, Iowa, one of the Swift sites raided yesterday. Since the 90s, EVERYONE there has known the packing plant and the town itself is full of illegal aliens–about 30% of the residents last census. My father was a part-time medical examiner for the county; he got to interact with the illegal “community” during some investigations and was not impressed.
But no one in local government wants the laws to be enforced, because the native-born kids are all hell-bent out of moving out of Iowa (it’s a lovely place if you’re married with children, not so much if you got an engineering degree instead of a husband), and there’s a severe shortage of workers. Not just farm workers and the packing plants–nurses aides, food service, janitors, street crews–every sector of American life. They’re especially worried about the lack of nursing home workers, to care for the aging native population (they don’t seem to be worried that the illegals aren’t paying the taxes necessary to fund the native oldsters’ ‘entitlements’, but maybe that’s for another post).
It’s not necessarily about “cheap labor” (although the wages paid by packing companies in Iowa DID decrease from $15-20/hr in the 80s to the $8-12 the illegals make now), it’s about any labor at all. Any population at all, really–outside of the larger cities, school enrollments are shrinking, local businesses are closing, tax revenues are declining…
Gov. Vilsack (who is running for PRESIDENT in 2008) has spent the past 8 years actively welcoming illegals to “keep Iowa running”–and lecturing the native population about “bigotry” when we point out that we only want LEGAL immigrants (my dad now works with a doctor from India; I’ve worked with engineers from Japan, Korea, and the UK; I had a great therapist from Ghana–marvelous people, all of them) who want to assimilate, like our our ancestors did (mine came over in the 1880s).
On one hand, I can see the point. I hate to see my hometown die, I would hate to see my aging relatives having to drive all the way down to Des Moines to buy groceries or see a doctor. But illegal Mexicans are not the answer. If it’s really about “human capital” and “people taking advantage of opportunity” like the pro-illegal argument goes, then why not try to attract underemployed Americans from other states? What’s the unemployment rate for black men with high school diplomas? There’s plenty of unskilled and semi-skilled Americans to draw from, there’s no actual need to encourage fraud and other criminal behavior. Unfortunately, I think the welfare state comes into play here–why move to another state to take a job when you can get everything paid for by the government right where you are?
Sigh. It’s not going to get any better.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Comment by Radish — 12.13.06 @ 11:42 am
A correction to your update - you state that according to MM “one of the victims [of the raid] was a Border Patrol Agent.” This is a misleading way to put it. The Border Patrol Agent in question was one of the victims of the identity theft the raid was intended to crack down on, not of the raid itself.
Thanks! - Admin
Comment by Bridget — 12.13.06 @ 11:46 am
Glad to see that part of it (see title); but it’s high time the leaders of this nation started enforcing its laws as opposed to creating new ones they have no intent of enforcing just to make the fringes “feel good†every time there is an uncomfortable problem to be dealt with.
Pingback by Gun Toting Liberal — 12.13.06 @ 11:54 am
After the raids: The whining begins
First, check out this reaction to yesterday’s illegal alien worker raids published in the Des Moines Register: Caption: Hector Angel, a Marshalltown business owner, states his point of view about the raid as ICE buses roll away from the plant….
Trackback by Michelle Malkin — 12.13.06 @ 1:06 pm
Cheap labor is indeed the reason behind the acceptance of illegals. Radish points out that the average wage is around 8 to 10 per hour to work in these plants. Now lets think about this, if you had a choice where would you prefer to work, Walmart at 8$ an hour or Swift meat packing for $10 an hour? I would choose wal mart. For only 2$ an hour, something I can easily make up with a few hours overtime, I will work in a retail store with AC/Heat. If I work at swift, i will make a little more money but I have to work in pig sh$T covered in blood surrounded by people cutting up animals with knives. I am not saying that I would never do the job, but I would need to get paid a lot more then what Walmart is paying to take that job. The same logic holds for any ‘dirty’ job out there. Would you work construction if you could make as much working at Walmart? No, Walmart is an easy job (compared to meat packing/construction etc.), it is inside, it has opportunities for advancement, it is safe.
If someone offers to sell me a 60 inch flat screen HDTV out of the back of a truck for $100.00, a jury could rightfully assume that I must have known that I was buying stolen goods. If a company can hire someone to work for 8$ an hour when jobs that are easier, nice etc. pay the same or more, a jury could rightfully assume that the company knew it was hiring illegals.
One more point, imagine a world where meat packing companies paid $20.00 an hour with great benefits to attract workers. Imagine a convicted felon being able to go get that job and make enough to support a family and or pay restitution. Imagine how much taxes that worker would pay, Imagine what that worker would buy. If it meant that I would pay an extra buck for a pack of bacon, big deal.
Ok one final point, the same people who say that they want to improve the lot of the working poor, and or rail about the difference between rich and poor, are the same people who cry murder when we enforce the immigration laws. If this country had 5 million fewer low skilled workers, the wages for the bottom end of the work force would sky rocket.
Comment by Mike — 12.13.06 @ 1:53 pm
Illegal Aliens And Identity Theft
Well, if they were able to estimate that up to 40% of their employees are illegal, than they knowingly hired them. Here’s a clue for Swift
Trackback by Sensible Mom — 12.13.06 @ 2:47 pm
How can a company NOT know that 40% of its work force is illegal?
Regardless of whether the illegals are asking to be expoited…Tyler is exploiting workers just like anyone else who is trying to realize a profit. If you are getting your house painted and you hired the Mexicans because they are cheaper. You are exploiting them. You are breaking the law. When they get smart enough to break their arm on your property see what OUR Govt does to PROTECT you.
Comment by Nick — 12.13.06 @ 2:56 pm
Correction Tyler = Swift in last post
Comment by Nick — 12.13.06 @ 2:59 pm
And does anyone make the connection between the growing problem of tainted food as in E COLI etc that is the new booming commodity in this country.?
Stupidity rules!
I called Chertoffs office this morning and left my comment…that I know that this is a set up for Bush’s guest worker program and to prove that the DHS is doing its job. Yeah right, let’s see 1,000 employees out of 20 million…….sure that should make a difference now shouldn’t it??
Comment by Mary Burke — 12.13.06 @ 3:22 pm
Immigrants have always been the labor in the meat packing business. There are not many glamor jobs there.
If you run a small business, checking on whether your labor is legal or not is nearly impossible. You can readily find out about a sex offender, but not an illegal alien. If the Mexican applying for work has papers that appear to be in order, you have the choice of taking him on or erring on the side of caution. But if you turned him down because you were skeptical about whether he is “legal” and you turn out to be wrong: Hello civil rights lawyers.
Swift is a huge company. They have more money to be more thorough in their hiring. But why should they bear that burden? If the US doesn’t particularly care about “illegal” aliens, why should Swift?
Our politicians really don’t care about illegal immigration. We have been out sourcing jobs for years. Illegal immigration is out sourcing in reverse.
Really, even if Swift were paying smugglers to get the illegals in, I don’t see how that is any more reprehensible than governments slopping all forms of welfare on them.
Comment by Heliotrope — 12.13.06 @ 4:25 pm
I’m surprised the ACLU hasn’t rushed out to screech that the illegals had a right to steal citizens’ identities. After all, they’ve been given the right to break our laws.
Comment by CC — 12.13.06 @ 4:50 pm
No, the Swift company probably won’t be fined. But they are donating money to this United Way fund to help the families “impacted” by the raid:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5211196,00.html
Um, okay…The plant only closed for a day and everyone arrested will be released soon if they haven’t been already.
Comment by Kimberly — 12.13.06 @ 4:56 pm
I understand that the hiring of illegal aliens in the meat packing business has driven the national average pay from $28.00 per hour, down to $14.00 per hr.
Comment by marty — 12.13.06 @ 5:15 pm
And now the Governor of Illinois mandates benefits for illegals, including health care benefits
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/12/AR2006121201342.html
The guy has the guts to break federal law using taxpayer money. It just doesn’t get any better than this.
Comment by dianne — 12.13.06 @ 5:35 pm
I’m with Helio. You can’t even begin to blame businesses for hiring illegals until there is a political will.
Remember, the fact that to be a stranger in a foreign land has nothing to do with morals. The only crime happening is that of a law that supposedly says one can not come into this country without jumping thru certain hoops. It is merely a law that defines how something should be done and has no bearing whatsoever with whether being an alien is wrong.
Also remember the adage: “What Ceasar giveth, Ceasar taketh” Congress passed a law defining illegal aliens and congress can well rescind the law and open the boarders even wider.
Before ya’ll gang up on me, let me give a comparison. The speed limit is a legal permit to travel up to the posted limit. So if the limit is 55mph, to drive 56mph is illegal. But we all know that cops will cut you about 10% slack. So ‘everyone’ drives 60 while the cops ticket those at 60+. And in certain areas, the locals get away with it while out-of-towners get tapped to help support the local sheriff–just as our authorities like to round up the illegals when it suits them for political purposes.
Questions: is driving 60 or 70 wrong in of it self, or wrong when in excess of the law?
How many of you consciously and routinely exceed the posted limit on a daily basis?
If and when your kids question it, how do you rationalize that stellar example of lawbreaking?
Do you tell them that the speed limit is just a little game that drivers and cops play and hopefully that you win more than you lose?
Or do you admit that speeding is a sin, just as a little white lie or murdering someone are equally sin?
As I understand it, these people are being busted on identity theft, ie using a valid number that belongs to someone else, not on fake made-up ID. If so, Swift met the law in that the SSA did not flag anyone as having an invalid number. Yeah Swift ‘knew’ there was a bunch of illegals, but they are not responsible beyond collecting the required documentation.
Also, believe it or not, one does not have to present a SS card for employment. Look closely at that form and you will see that while having a SSN IS required, showing the SS card IS NOT. To wit, I haven’t had a ‘card’ since I lost it back in 1980. I suppose I could ask for a new card, but why should I, when all I need is to memorize the number.
Having said all that, I believe that anyone coming here MUST assimilate into our melting pot (not a multi-kulti salad bowl), furthermore, English is the official language of the land - learn it and use it. While we’re at it we need a secure border so that we know WHO is coming in or out.
However, this is a divided topic and our congresscritters evidently believe that the weight of public opionion is pro-illegal. As a result, since the act of immigration is not immoral, I can’t get too worked up about it one way or the other. I’m pretty ambivalent even to the economic pros & cons.
Exception being certain abuses like handing out welfare and other benefits & rights of citizenship (constitutional issue) willy-nilly. For our officials to ignore is one thing but pro-actively bend or break our laws really chaps me.
Comment by Andy — 12.14.06 @ 12:16 am
This issue will never be resolved.
Comment by mj — 12.14.06 @ 1:10 am
Yesterday I posted that I thought meat packers were paid are being paid $14. now instead of $28. per hr. My mistake, Lou Dobbs just said that they are now being paid $9. instead of $19. per hr, due to cheap illegal alien labor. I am an old labor guy…the Democrat Party no longer represents the worker.
Comment by marty — 12.14.06 @ 4:37 am
“Our politicians really don’t care about illegal immigration. We have been out sourcing jobs for years. Illegal immigration is out sourcing in reverse.”
Should the Government stop American businesses from outsourcing? I thought corporate greed was good for the economy?
One way to convince the religious right that corporate greed isn’t all the apple-pie it’s cooked up to be, might be to show that corporate greed relies on cheap labour. And cheap labour means foreigners. Nationalism has many times proved to be a powerful political force for change.
Time to do the job the government should be doing and picket Walmart? That might be a start…?
Regards,
John
Comment by JohnD — 12.14.06 @ 4:39 am
Andy, I just read your post. I agree that Swift didn’t have any obligation to do what is right. In fact I was just walking down the street and saw a young thug beating up an old lady who looked to be about ninety. I just gave a wink and a nod, it sure felt like a relief as I walked by.
As to “congress critters”…When asked the questions in a fair way, the American public to the tune of about 85% do not want illegals either here or made legal. But almost all of the politicians in both Parties do. The K Street crowd give both Parties plenty of money & in addition the Dems want them in to bolster their vote. But you are correct that there is no reason why these politicians should do what is right. wink wink nod nod
Comment by marty — 12.14.06 @ 5:06 am
#19 “I’m with Helio. You can’t even begin to blame businesses for hiring illegals until there is a political will.”
But many are finding the political will, the so-called ‘Minutemen’ for instance? And I have read many Conservative blogs recently that claim to have reported business owners for employing illegally working Hispanics.
I personally have been trying my best to boycott Nestle, certian Coltan importers (mobile phones) and places like Walmart for many years, albeit for reasons other than Nationalism. However, anyone that uses a computer can pretty much guarantee that is has some Chinese lineage
Nonetheless, I find that ‘not blaiming businesses’ until there is ‘political’ will to be passing the buck at least.
Regards,
JohnD
Comment by JohnD — 12.14.06 @ 5:43 am
“So the feds made a big show of “raiding†plants and handcuffing illegal aliens. Big deal. Identity theft is one way to tackle the problem, yes, but yesterday’s raid will mean absolutely nothing if those same illegal aliens end up at other meat-packing plants. DEPORT THEM. HEAVILY FINE THE COMPANIES. Train hiring managers to spot fake documents. Learn how to use employment verification systems already in place.”
Great job LaShawn! That’s the deal, isn’t it? All the talk about “comprehensive” immigration reform reminds me of what we 2nd Amendment righters used to say. “Enforce the laws on the books before you pass new ones.”
That applies to immigration too. Their are laws that both allow and restrict immigration and we need to make a serious attempt as a nation to enforce those laws.
Comment by chrisstevens — 12.14.06 @ 6:49 am
and it’s the Race Card! Following the six-state raids on a meat-packing company to nab illegals who allegedly stole IDs so they could be employed, it’s time to watch all the drama unfurl.
Pingback by SassaFrassin.com — 12.14.06 @ 11:19 am
Time to end all this illegal immigration deport illegal aliens and get ourselves out of the UN and build a border fence and drive the CFR out of our nation as well.
Comment by BIRDZILLA — 12.14.06 @ 3:45 pm
Marty/JohnD, I think you missed my point. Swift technically followed the law to the extent of what was required of them.
People say Swift ought to be punished. Fine, exactly how and on what basis?
Could they have done more? Sure at the risk of putting themselves out of business.
As another has already noted, we’ve got so many laws on the books, we need to enforce what’s already there and scrap the ones that are deficient, before even thinking about making up new ones.
Illegal immigration is an amoral issue. As for your wink, wink example, that’s just plain immoral on the part of the beater & winker.
As for Walmart and other businesses, making them the scapegoat for our penchant for cheap prices is just silly. People need to turn the mirror around. I’ll gladly I admit that I’m as cheap as I can get. Why on earth would I EVER buy something made in USA if I can get the same quality cheaper in China? PERIOD.
Now for the hard facts of life. If that means a fellow American is out of a job due to my ‘cheap’ preference, so be it. That only the buyer can define best-value is an immutable law of nature. I’ll bet that you didn’t know that Einstein was also an economist did ‘ya? E=MC2 defines the free market relativity in both labor and goods.
Seriously, thanks to mal-legislation, corporations are put in the position of having to reconcile the costs of complying with a law vs affording the penalty should they get nabbed. That’s what happens when you let lawyers make laws, but I digress. If the numbers dictate that it’s cheaper to break the law, then shame on the law-givers. The fundamental issue is about compliance and enforcement, rather than morality. That’s why I’m not too worked up into a fit of righteous fury, La Raza and other multi-kulti nincompoops notwithstanding
Thanks to PC & lawyers, do you really believe that any business would consider questioning a probable illegal? The race-baiters would be on them faster than flies on stink. I can just see the headlines: “Racist Company X refused to hire an American citizen for looking Hispanic.”
I don’t doubt that there are strong feelings out there against amnesty for illegals or what have you. But by the time that noise percolates to the vaunted halls of congress, it’s been squelched by other interests who use both money and race politics.
I really do hope that one way or another we come to grips with the illegal immigration issue and I’d much rather it be on melting-pot principles with provisions for guest workers while maintaining a tight border.
There’s plenty of other illegal immigration angles, if you follow the money. But in no case is this wrong as in immoral. If anything I’d be more upset about how Chucky Schumer just conned we-the-people out of 625 million for his little pork-barrel earmark before the born-again-and corruption-free Dems slammed the door on future earmarks, albeit only for a year. That was sneaky, slimy, ingenious whatever, but it wasn’t immoral. Sigh
Comment by Andy — 12.14.06 @ 11:55 pm
Businesses MUST be held accountable, up to a reasonable standard of due diligence. The meat packing company execs knew they were hiring illegals. They had to know. It’s ridiculous to believe that they were fooled by all the phony IDs. Rational thought tells us that businesses can’t always tell if the documentation presented is genuine in every individual case, but for cryin’ out loud, this just screams complicity between the illegals and management.
As for government enforcement, it’s a sick joke. For 16 years we have been checking documentation and filling out I-9 forms to show that no one employed at our business is illegal. When was the last time ICE came by to check our files? That would be NEVER. I could have a shop full of illegals, and the feds wouldn’t care. But I’ll state one thing for the record. If I even suspect that someone might have phonied up their documentation, I’ll be on the phone to multiple government offices immediately. What good it will do remains uncertain, but I’m not going to be a part of the problem.
Illegal immigration is illegal. I know this is a really tough concept for our Congress and White House to grasp, but there it is. [insert rolling eyes here]
Comment by RedBeard — 12.15.06 @ 7:51 am
#28 Marty/JohnD, I think you missed my point.
Maybe, but you say:
“As for Walmart and other businesses, making them the scapegoat for our penchant for cheap prices is just silly.”
The penchant for cheap prices not a one-way thing, it is actually a contract between the buyer’s values/pocket and the supplier, . Cheap goods also have cheap wages and cheap principles attached to them. Value is not mentioned in E=MC2, but it exists as a concept and a reality, albeit in a diminishing sense as we become more rapaciously consumerist. Less conservative, in the literal sense.
“Why on earth would I EVER buy something made in USA if I can get the same quality cheaper in China? PERIOD.”
Maybe you wouldn’t want to see your money financially supporting a Communist regime, or outsourcing, or child-labour, or sweatshops, or any ethical/political concern you may have? Just guesses, but I’m sure values still have some mileage against the dollar? Just a few?
The Conservative position used to be about taking personal responsibility, not about blaming everyone else. I see the same happening with illegal immigration. Blame the government, blame liberals, blame the courts, but keep profits high by hiring cheap labour
“The race-baiters would be on them faster than flies on stink. I can just see the headlines: “Racist Company X refused to hire an American citizen for looking Hispanic.”
I think we are seeing race-baiting in reverse here.
For example,
Bob Eisel Powder Coatings, fined over $200,000 for hiring illegal workers this year. Oh, wait, maybe he was just hiring them so he didn’t want to be fined for being ‘racist’? C’mon? The comapny gets a slap on the wrist, the illegals get jailed first and sent back over the border. Everybody’s happy. Although it would be fair if the employer’s were deported to Mexico too
Regards,
JohnD
Comment by JohnD — 12.15.06 @ 10:16 am
Go ahead and deport them all. The jobs will go with them. You will sit high and dry while the corporations that keep these towns alive move south or north of the border. This debate is an economic one not a legal one. If you continue to focus on legal issues the economics will work itself out and America will end up falling further behind in manufacturing.
Comment by pete — 12.15.06 @ 12:03 pm
and to the question of whether an employer can question the legal status of a new hire. it is the duty of EVERY EMPLOYER TO ENSURE THE NEW HIRE IS LEGAL TO WORK IN THE UNITED STATES. No you cannot ask where an individual is from but you are REQUIRED TO SEE TWO FORMS OF VALID ID.
Comment by pete — 12.15.06 @ 12:05 pm
Andy has it right and Redbeard nails it: “For 16 years we have been checking documentation and filling out I-9 forms to show that no one employed at our business is illegal. When was the last time ICE came by to check our files?”
1. Pedro Rodriguez applies for a meat packing job. He is wearing a T-shirt that says “Thanks Coyote’s, that was fun. I am totally illegal and I love it.” He can not speak one word of English. The EEOC rep translates for Pedro. He gives a social security number and says he is an orphan, but he was born in Alaska.
2. Are you (the Swift Company) going to question his story? Remember, if he is speaking the truth, the ACLU and the EEOC civil rights folks are down your throat immediately and you will pay out major money for discrimination.
3. There are million(s) of illegal immigrants who have been here for years and can produce records of past employment.
4. Pedro and his buds get pulled over for driving down the wrong side of the interstate at rush hour. If the highway patrol will not act on his citizenship status, why is it up to employer to take the risk?
5. JohnD offers this convoluted attempt at rational thinking: “Cheap goods also have cheap wages and cheap principles attached to them.” Obviously, we could solve every social problem by having a lower standard of living supplemented by confiscatory taxes to support an inflated socialist state in the event we decide not to work. But capitalism does not run off the exhaust of the tax system.
6. We (including JohnD) buy goods produced by cheap labor from everywhere but home. I can guarantee you that JohnD is not wearing clothes woven and fabricated in England because to do so would put him in a choice between eating and staying warm. JohnD wears clothing that is often manufactured at near slave labor.
7. Meat packing does not lend itself to outsourcing. That is to say, it would be STUPID to send cattle to Asia to be chopped up for pennies. Therefore, the job goes to those within the country who will take the job. If immigrants will do it for $14/hour and citizens drop out of the labor market at hourly wages above that…..who the heck will get the jobs? Do I care if my hamburger was ground by native born American hands? DUH!!!!
8. It is not the problem of industry to take expensive, time consuming effort to make certain their employees are all “legit.”
If the government were making an 80% effort to stop “illegal” immigration and to enforce it, the story would be different.
9. I sit on the board of directors of a for-profit hospital. Over 40% of our costs go to avoid malpractice suits. That means, if we could avoid these suits, our prices could be slashed dramatically. However, there is no interest in this, so all the patients pay inflated bills and high insurance premiums. If you leave immigration research and enforcement to the various industries, they will have to tack the price onto the price of the product.
10. Economics is not really complicated, unless your view it from the welfare end of the telescope.
Comment by Heliotrope — 12.15.06 @ 7:34 pm
#37
Points 5 and 6
Andy #28, suggested that if a product of the same quality is cheaper, then there can be no reason to buy from another source. He laso suggests that businesses cannot be blamed for hiring illegals unless there is ‘political will’.
I suggested that there *could* be other considerations for buying a product/service other than price alone.
I gave a few examples, including the concept of ‘values’.
Heliotrope responds by attacking a ‘taxation strawman’, which was completely unrelated but nevertheless a bold attempt to demolish my harmless musings.
However, Heliotrope, then you go on to say:
“But capitalism does not run off the exhaust of the tax system.
Although again, unrelated to my point, I will parry your general thrust. OK, am I missing something, or is the buyer/employer (motivated by the purity of capitalism) excused from having any ethical/political/legal reason *not* buy a product/service?
A simple yes or no would suffice. I suggest ‘no’.
Moving on, the attack then grew apace. Using both hands and maybe teeth, we now witness the beginnings of war against the infamous ‘holier than thou’ strawman.
Heliotrope:
“I can guarantee you that JohnD is not wearing clothes woven and fabricated in England because to do so would put him in a choice between eating and staying warm. JohnD wears clothing that is often manufactured at near slave labor.”
(Applause)
Helitotrope, do you ever find yourself forced to go with a tide through lack of choice? Do you suggest businesses MUST employ illegals because labour is cheaper? Do you suggest we MUST buy meat from cruel sources because it is cheaper? Is the dollar the be all and end all of choicemaking?
As you made an assumption about my buying habits, I’ll risk defensing it (again, wince)
I buy 95% of my clothes from Charity stores as a second user. This is because I live in a society of waste, excess, self-adulation. If I can help a charity by buying used clothes then I will.
I simply don’t care about ‘holier than thou’ ‘enemy of capitalism’ strawmen. We all make choices. I use a computer. Loads of ‘near-slave labour’ parts in it. No getting round it. It’s the things we *can* get round we can try and achieve.
A question:
Others often reveal more about themselves when they try to second guess one’s motives.
Maybe you could re-read my comments. If they were unclear, I will attempt to portray more clearly my argument. But please, once again, try and refrain from making personal attacks and assumptions.
Attack the argument, not the speaker. I agree with laShawn that strawmen are no real argument, they just stifle debate. You can’t call everyone who disagrees with you a racist or a socialist. It’s just false.
Such simple rhetoric can be every bit as extreme, condescending and silly as the self-important hyperbole of the ‘capitalism is evil’ crowd.
Now back to the point: Should/does the buyer/employer shoulder *any* responsibility for illgal/unethical trading, or is it all (insert external agency’s)fault?
Regards,
John
Comment by JohnD — 12.16.06 @ 5:56 am
apologies for typos and rushed errors above.
JD
Comment by JohnD — 12.16.06 @ 8:36 am
Small businesses who follow the law and hire only legal citizens cannot compete with small businesses who hire illegal immigrants at lower wages and in many cases hire them off the tax books. Consequently, legal small businesses, which are the backbone of this country, are being forced out of business. This is especially apparent in the blue collar industries such as construction. Without enforcement, the illegal small business community flourishes. As illegal immigrants have spread all over the country as compared to formerly clustering in large cities, everybody has become aware of the problem and people all over the country have found themselves either out of a job or working for lower wages. The problem is now in everyone’s backyard.
The large corporations such as meat processors who hire illegal workers have lowered their wages (costs) but they haven’t lowered their prices (profit) The winner is the corporation (and stockhholder) but not the consumer. Now they cry that they will have to raise their prices which is just an excuse to make more profit, simply translated as greed. And they cry to Congress there are no willing workers.
Comment by dianne — 12.16.06 @ 10:11 am
I do not in any manner or form excuse or condone the willing and knowing hiring of illegal aliens.
I am a total realist vis a vis capitalism. We can not withdraw from nor escape from the global economy. A huge number of our manufacturing jobs have moved to the cheap labor markets around the world. Furthermore, a vast percentage of those overseas plants have very lax, if any, environmental restrictions. The workers may be very young and work long hours and have minimal housing and scant medical care.
Anyone interested in the scope of all of this should read China, Inc. It is a real eye opener as both a view down from the American market and a view up from the Chinese labor perspective. It is hardly as simplistic a situation as the altruistic shopper might think.
Swift can not outsource meat packing. It must have a labor pool. Nearly every employer faces the problem of labor as the most costly part of production. The fact is that labor from Mexico and Central America has so raised the supply of labor that they have driven the hourly cost (wage) down.
Has Swift (et. al.) lowered the prices? No food producer sets the price of unprocessed meat or vegetables. Everything is auctioned at an exchange somewhere and the buyers determine the price. That is the fact of agriculture, unless the government has entered the picture by guaranteeing a minimum price through subsidies as they have on milk and sugar.
The price of a pound of hamburger, relative to the cost of living has gone down steadily since the 1960’s. The beef industry is always prodding the state department to get foreign markets opened to absorb the beef surplus grown here. Our beef has been shut out in many markets because of the mad cow disease scare we had in Oregon and Vermont a few years ago.
If Swift (et al.) are showing higher profits, it is because they have supplied a product that sells well at auction and they have kept their expenses down. The best way for a laborer at Swift to take advantage of this is to buy stock in the company. However, owning stock is tricky business and a huge dividend in one year may be followed by several years of no dividends and/or a capital loss in the value of the stock.
Swift could make the choice of spending the money to donate its excess product and flying it to Dafur and paying for the costs of distribution. This would bring rave reviews for the company, but it would be a great loss to the stockholders. Since the stockholders are university endowment funds, insurance companies, pension plans, mutual funds and assorted individuals, Swift would suffer the punishment of investors switching to more competently run companies.
I say once again: so long as the state and federal governments treat illegal aliens with a wink and a nod, there is no incentive for the private sector to act differently. Furthermore, the liability for acting differently is huge. If Swift irritated legal aliens they would get jumped on like Merican Airlines and the flying imams.
All the efforts I have seen to deal with the illegal aliens is little more than sweeping dirt under the carpet. And I suspect the best method for getting things in order would be to embark on the sensitive and much debated process of issuing a federal identification card to every US citizen.
And finally, if you expect everyone to act of the basis of conscience, you are encouraging the debasing of the general moral standard. That is an ancient and recorded truth. Those of us who adhere to organized religion are aware of own frailties when it comes to self interest. We admit our sins and depend upon the communion of fellow believers to help us repent and reform. Others are pretty much out there alone. While we all like the concept of “share and share alike” history shows that self interest must be policed.
Comment by Heliotrope — 12.16.06 @ 1:13 pm
“We admit our sins and depend upon the communion of fellow believers to help us repent and reform. Others are pretty much out there alone.”
I’m sorry, but I argue that to be an enormously arrogant and false statement. I’ve found communion/togetherness with all manner of people, in a number of different countries. The greed principle and that of self-reflection is not an exclusive domain of organized religion, it is something that affects every one of us. Greed affects and activates sll people, both socially or personally. I can guarantee you that Christians in my country work alongside Muslims ,Pagans, Wiccans, Sikhs, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists and sad old Existentialists. Concepts of self-interest are worked out between those who are affected directly or indirectly, and of course one’s own conscience.
Generally people can (or cannot) all find the strength of character required for altruism. The act of blaming the Devil or the ‘fallen world’ for one’s weaknesses might work for some, but good old cause and effect, or natural empathy, or plain old guilt, or ‘do the right thing’ works for others.
The act of Religious repentance is still often an act of self-interest. One wants to be saved for one’s own ‘God’, who made one in His Likeness. It can be a never-ending eat-all-you-can Egoburger washed down with litres of feel-good-bad-holier than-Them martyrdom. Seriously, how can one *really* accept full blame for one’s own actions when one believes that his strength is historically (forever!)engaged in some supernatural war against the nature of Evil? You must, you know, think: ‘oh well, I did my best in a fallen world and we are all sinners etc’?
I won’t similarly speak for all the millions of people who don’t follow Heliotrope’s logic/assertion that they are ‘out there alone’ regarding curbing self-interest, yet one may literally observe that families/peers/dependents/co-workers play a huge part in such dynamics, regardless of religion.
Those who can afford to turn a ‘blind eye’ are usually those with too much power in their hands, either political, financial, psychological, religious or any mix of them. But I do agree with your policing statement; the slave-driver has been historically proven to have ‘gotten away with it’ whether using the Bible or not.
Repentance is all well and good when caught being a sh*t, but I find that a painful consequence usually hurries things along more effectively, and modifies the next event favourably.
Shield people from natural consequence, and we are back at the start of this discussion!
Regards,
John..
Comment by JohnD — 12.16.06 @ 3:41 pm
Heliotrope…I have just one more comment on your post above. I am just astonished that over 40% of a hospital’s cost is to protect from malpractice. This is a prime example of what makes me so furious with republicans. After seeing that figure, most people would demand that Congress make changes in laws to prevent such things from happening, but the Republicans don’t stand up before the public with sound arguments such as what you have shown. Over and over again the Republicans don’t present basic information to the public to support needed changes. Their argument for social security reform was so poor they didn’t have a chance of advancing it. I could have done a better job.
Comment by dianne — 12.17.06 @ 2:33 pm
#39 Dianne notes: “Over and over again the Republicans don’t present basic information to the public to support needed changes.”
Amen to that!!! Trent Lott is no communication genius and we will have to wait and see if anyone in the House rises to any level of important respect. Poor old G.W. is a train wreck (most of the time) when he cuts loose.
But then, the Democrats have made an art form of demagoguery. I don’t know who among them I am inclined to believe that they could even consider putting America first. They are all so entrenched in their own inter-party and intra-party turf wars.
Comment by Heliotrope — 12.18.06 @ 10:13 am
JohnD, regarding “Bob Eisel Powder Coatings, fined over $200,000 for hiring illegal workers this year. Oh, wait, maybe he was just hiring them so he didn’t want to be fined for being ‘racist’? C’mon? The comapny gets a slap on the wrist, the illegals get jailed first and sent back over the border. Everybody’s happy….”
With a shout out to Redbeard & Helio, let’s take a closer look at that example, http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ks/press/Aug06/Indictment.html
Hmmm, you just illustrated two of my points:
1) I contend that the fines are not a dis-incentive to hiring illegals. It is a ‘fee’ that one pays for the privilege of hiring illegals for a time.
To wit, the DOJ cites 24 counts spanning back to 1997. Without firing up my M$ Excel, let’s just assume the median — knowing good and well, the DOJ counts only covers the tip of the iceberg as it were — let’s go with 12 people over 6 years.
If these illegals were paid $10/hr instead of the official DOL rate of $14 to $16 and an average yearly man-hours of 2000 hours, we get a ’savings’ of 12 ppl * 2000 hrs * $5 * 6 years = $720,000!!!. Bob Eisel and co more likely saved over a million dollars in salaries. I won’t even go into the advantages of having off-the-books labor vis a vis OSHA burden for physicals & personal protection equipment (PPE), insurance etc. But hey, for simplicity’s sake, Mr. Eisel used the lowered salaries to finance his PPE and insurance requirements.
WebSource: http://laborstats.dol.ks.gov/occupatn/wsdet.asp?p_code=519121&p_area=009040&p_period=200404&p_ed=2005&p_order=code&p_type=all&p_fil=1&p_find=Machine
(According to the above link, the DOL estimates that 420 tradesmen, in Wichita, work in this field averaging $15.30 in 2005)
and
http://laborstats.dol.ks.gov/occupatn/ws99/wichita.htm
This older report shows the average wage under the following categories:
92951 Coating, Painting, and Spraying Machine Setters and Set-Up Operators @ “unkown” ppl, averaging $8.70
92953 Coating, Painting, and Spraying Machine Operators and Tenders @ 130 ppl, averaging $14.17
See what you can find in Google in just 5 mins?
2) Paying $200K fine on even $720K amounts to a ‘corporate tax’ of 36%!!!. This is NOT punitive, this is simply the ‘cost’ of doing business.
Since governmental enforcement is lax, this situation becomes a convenient vehicle for the ambitious politician or gov’t bureaucrat to score points by ‘doing’ something for show to Joe Q Public.
This is bad on two levels. Follow the money and likely someone crossed someone leading to this incident. In other words, this is a political AND economic payback of sorts. Lady Justice is no longer blind, rather she become a party to who gets caught and who gets to pass GO. Just ask Eliot Spitzer who sets the bar for activist prosecution-the dude sees a wisp of smoke and rings out a 10 alarm fire. Altho he has overreached himself time and time again, what does he care? He’s moving into the governor’s mansion come January. Meanwhile, there is a trail of wreckage in his wake for which taxpayers and consumers are footing the bill. The Libertarian POV would say he has no business going in until the laws have been broken, then hit ‘em. Until then, don’t meddle. Sarbanes-Oxley is another stellar example of ‘acting’ for the public’s view rather than the public’s good and the unintended consequences that followed.
Back to the issue of hiring illegals. For those who sincerely want to follow the law, they will be run out of business because they simply can’t compete against those who will hire illegals.
It’s always nice for some to mount the soapbox and bray on and on about social justice or how it ought to be. But if they have to put it in practice, the same tend to find themselves struggling to survive.
Granted, I’m talking about businesses where there is high competition for services & a surplus of labor. As much as I want to go into business for myself, I hesitate, precisely because of this ‘law of the jungle’ effect. Now if I can find a niche where I am insulated from having to hire illegals, I’d be content. However, to get to that point, there has to be a best-value proposition that is unaffected by labor cost. And therein lies the rub. Any other line of business, I have to discount, because I know, sooner or later, the profit margin gets squeezed.
Likewise with consumer goods. What do I care if a shirt was made in China? A shirt is a shirt. I only need to compare the quality of that shirt to the asking price. Would I like to see better conditions for the sweatshops in Thailand? Of course. Am I going to spend extra money in a fit of self-righteous protest and buy Made In USA only? Of course not, especially when I think that over 50% of that cost gets gobbled by factors that have nothing to do with producing that shirt, ie unions, admin, insurance etc.
In that case, better that I keep the sweatshop worker busy and have money left over for other things or saving for my own personal pension, since you and I know very well that SS can’t be counted on to be there as hyped.
Notwithstanding that the worker makes chump change compared to our standard of living, their SoL is nonetheless rising.
If you want to shop at Goodwill or Salvation Army, more power to you doing what you want with YOUR money. I’ve found plenty of bargains myself. Bottomline is that it has to be a bargain for me.
3) Actually, your example buttresses La Shawn’s position that illegals depress wages. Note the above wage increase from 1999 to 2005, it has barely moved up $1 over 7 years, yet if the DOL labor force estimates are remotely accurate, we see that demand for these painters almost quadrupled. So, here we have a demand for a particular labor skillset, not to mention the hi-$$ in technology capitalization, yet we see only a growth in wages approaching 1.1% annually. This is proof that illegals drive down wages, especially in skilled trades. Certainly compared to my white-collar job where I’ve averaged 4%. But if the illegals could read, write & speak English well, I’d start worrying about my field as well.
Actually, I have 3 major beefs about the illegals. Not that Jorge or Miguel is here or there, but that an unchecked and a thriving black market in labor undermines my ability to launch and sustain a business profitably. I’ve always been of the opinion that to be an employee is to be economically indentured to your employer, hence I don’t buy the class-baiting or the ‘workers’ living wage crap. Yet, if I have to work for another to make ends meet, so be it. I’ll give the boss his 8 hrs and keep an eye out, ready and waiting to make that break when opportunity knocks.
The other couple of points are the resurgence of diseases that at one time were practically extinct. I wonder if rising cases of food poisioning has any connection? And I am certainly against according the rights of citizenship to aliens who haven’t even undergone the rites of citizenship. This part was explicitly dealt with by the constitution, yet our politicians choose to pass the buck and is a classic case of them shirking their responsibilities to ensure that we adhere to the constitution. This is even more egregious when I no longer have the reasonable expectation of understanding or being understood when interacting with services personnel etc.
Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year.
Comment by Andy — 12.19.06 @ 6:52 pm
#41
Good work Andy, and it seems you’re right, hardly even a slap on the wrist. The legal system obviously isn’t doing it’s job properly.
But in fairness, my example was to show that it was actually the company and the illegals that were being targeted for this crime, not, as the rhetoricians would have us believe, the race-baiters suing the company for *not* hiring illegal hispanics.
In actuality, once again, my point is made, the $$$$ speaks loudest of all, and with unimpuned authority.
You say
“since you and I know very well that SS can’t be counted on to be there as hyped. ;)”
Well, cute wink or not, it’s fair to state on what evidence you base your knowledge or your bias?
Again, and I shan’t move on this: I simply do not believe that the employers are blameless, neither should they wait for government to find the ‘political will’. Don’t we all hold will within ourselves?
The only people really fighting this problem are Nationalists, as they have the most to lose by allowing ingression of ‘foreigners’. Unprincipled businessmen do what they always did. They exploit what human capital they can, and then move on, or fire the complainers.
Comment by JohnD — 12.20.06 @ 5:10 am
I think the real cost of illegal immigration is to the promise of what America is supposed to be about. Consider this:
A young married Quiche (Mayan) man in Guatemala has to provide for his family. He could stay at home and make $30 to $40 a month, which even there is barely sustenance. But the Coyotes (the people who smuggle illegals in) will get him into the country, for say $5000, where he can earn ten to twenty times that, or more.
Of course he doesn’t have 5 grand, so the Coyotes “loan” it to him, at an exorbitant interest rate. Then, if he survives the trip (which is dangerous), he finds himself working just to pay the interest. If he runs away, well the Coyotes know where his family lives and just like all organized crime, they know that if they are soft on one mark, it would embolden all of them, so they will hurt or kill his family….they are absolutely merciless.
So, this young Quiche, in pursuit of a better life for himself, finds himself in virtual slavery in the U.S., his family is worse off, even if he can send a little money home every once in a while, because there is no man in the house. The children grow up wild and unsupervised, with all the problems that children of single parents have.
So, illegals are bad for Guatemala. But here, in the Land of the Free, we allow slavery, which is a violation of our fundamental core belief. And why? Because it makes some company a lot of money.
Now, I am a believer in capitalism, but it should not be unbridled, because I also know that greed and sin rule this world.
Slavery was outlawed in this country, mainly because people of faith could and would not tolerate it. It is time for people of faith to stand up to this modern style of slavery, too.
Comment by benm — 12.20.06 @ 8:07 am
Benm, good point.
JohnD, we may be talking past each other, except on two points. The racebaiters are always lying in wait to pound any company that tries to be proactive in not hiring illegals.
Have you opened a bank account recently? Seems like we get asked a lot of personal questions and proof of ID, the whole 9 yards, yet illegals can waltz in with nothing more than their matricula (sp) ID and get set up.
As for SS, I don’t think I have to spell it out. Simply put, I think anyone whose retirement strategy consists of depending on SS is in for a rude awakening, but that’s beyond the scope of this thread.
Comment by Andy — 12.20.06 @ 11:39 am