JohnD, we may be talking past each other, except on two points. The racebaiters are always lying in wait to pound any company that tries to be proactive in not hiring illegals.

Have you opened a bank account recently? Seems like we get asked a lot of personal questions and proof of ID, the whole 9 yards, yet illegals can waltz in with nothing more than their matricula (sp) ID and get set up.

As for SS, I don’t think I have to spell it out. Simply put, I think anyone whose retirement strategy consists of depending on SS is in for a rude awakening, but that’s beyond the scope of this thread.

A young married Quiche (Mayan) man in Guatemala has to provide for his family. He could stay at home and make $30 to $40 a month, which even there is barely sustenance. But the Coyotes (the people who smuggle illegals in) will get him into the country, for say $5000, where he can earn ten to twenty times that, or more.

Of course he doesn’t have 5 grand, so the Coyotes “loan” it to him, at an exorbitant interest rate. Then, if he survives the trip (which is dangerous), he finds himself working just to pay the interest. If he runs away, well the Coyotes know where his family lives and just like all organized crime, they know that if they are soft on one mark, it would embolden all of them, so they will hurt or kill his family….they are absolutely merciless.

So, this young Quiche, in pursuit of a better life for himself, finds himself in virtual slavery in the U.S., his family is worse off, even if he can send a little money home every once in a while, because there is no man in the house. The children grow up wild and unsupervised, with all the problems that children of single parents have.

So, illegals are bad for Guatemala. But here, in the Land of the Free, we allow slavery, which is a violation of our fundamental core belief. And why? Because it makes some company a lot of money.

Now, I am a believer in capitalism, but it should not be unbridled, because I also know that greed and sin rule this world.

Slavery was outlawed in this country, mainly because people of faith could and would not tolerate it. It is time for people of faith to stand up to this modern style of slavery, too.

Good work Andy, and it seems you’re right, hardly even a slap on the wrist. The legal system obviously isn’t doing it’s job properly.

But in fairness, my example was to show that it was actually the company and the illegals that were being targeted for this crime, not, as the rhetoricians would have us believe, the race-baiters suing the company for *not* hiring illegal hispanics.

In actuality, once again, my point is made, the $$$$ speaks loudest of all, and with unimpuned authority.

You say

“since you and I know very well that SS can’t be counted on to be there as hyped. ”

Well, cute wink or not, it’s fair to state on what evidence you base your knowledge or your bias?

Again, and I shan’t move on this: I simply do not believe that the employers are blameless, neither should they wait for government to find the ‘political will’. Don’t we all hold will within ourselves?

The only people really fighting this problem are Nationalists, as they have the most to lose by allowing ingression of ‘foreigners’. Unprincipled businessmen do what they always did. They exploit what human capital they can, and then move on, or fire the complainers.

With a shout out to Redbeard & Helio, let’s take a closer look at that example, http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ks/press/Aug06/Indictment.html

Hmmm, you just illustrated two of my points:

1) I contend that the fines are not a dis-incentive to hiring illegals. It is a ‘fee’ that one pays for the privilege of hiring illegals for a time.

To wit, the DOJ cites 24 counts spanning back to 1997. Without firing up my M$ Excel, let’s just assume the median — knowing good and well, the DOJ counts only covers the tip of the iceberg as it were — let’s go with 12 people over 6 years.

If these illegals were paid $10/hr instead of the official DOL rate of $14 to $16 and an average yearly man-hours of 2000 hours, we get a ‘savings’ of 12 ppl * 2000 hrs * $5 * 6 years = $720,000!!!. Bob Eisel and co more likely saved over a million dollars in salaries. I won’t even go into the advantages of having off-the-books labor vis a vis OSHA burden for physicals & personal protection equipment (PPE), insurance etc. But hey, for simplicity’s sake, Mr. Eisel used the lowered salaries to finance his PPE and insurance requirements.

WebSource: http://laborstats.dol.ks.gov/occupatn/wsdet.asp?p_code=519121&p_area=009040&p_period=200404&p_ed=2005&p_order=code&p_type=all&p_fil=1&p_find=Machine
(According to the above link, the DOL estimates that 420 tradesmen, in Wichita, work in this field averaging $15.30 in 2005)

and

http://laborstats.dol.ks.gov/occupatn/ws99/wichita.htm
This older report shows the average wage under the following categories:
92951 Coating, Painting, and Spraying Machine Setters and Set-Up Operators @ “unkown” ppl, averaging $8.70
92953 Coating, Painting, and Spraying Machine Operators and Tenders @ 130 ppl, averaging $14.17

See what you can find in Google in just 5 mins?

2) Paying $200K fine on even $720K amounts to a ‘corporate tax’ of 36%!!!. This is NOT punitive, this is simply the ‘cost’ of doing business.

Since governmental enforcement is lax, this situation becomes a convenient vehicle for the ambitious politician or gov’t bureaucrat to score points by ‘doing’ something for show to Joe Q Public.

This is bad on two levels. Follow the money and likely someone crossed someone leading to this incident. In other words, this is a political AND economic payback of sorts. Lady Justice is no longer blind, rather she become a party to who gets caught and who gets to pass GO. Just ask Eliot Spitzer who sets the bar for activist prosecution-the dude sees a wisp of smoke and rings out a 10 alarm fire. Altho he has overreached himself time and time again, what does he care? He’s moving into the governor’s mansion come January. Meanwhile, there is a trail of wreckage in his wake for which taxpayers and consumers are footing the bill. The Libertarian POV would say he has no business going in until the laws have been broken, then hit ‘em. Until then, don’t meddle. Sarbanes-Oxley is another stellar example of ‘acting’ for the public’s view rather than the public’s good and the unintended consequences that followed.

Back to the issue of hiring illegals. For those who sincerely want to follow the law, they will be run out of business because they simply can’t compete against those who will hire illegals.

It’s always nice for some to mount the soapbox and bray on and on about social justice or how it ought to be. But if they have to put it in practice, the same tend to find themselves struggling to survive.

Granted, I’m talking about businesses where there is high competition for services & a surplus of labor. As much as I want to go into business for myself, I hesitate, precisely because of this ‘law of the jungle’ effect. Now if I can find a niche where I am insulated from having to hire illegals, I’d be content. However, to get to that point, there has to be a best-value proposition that is unaffected by labor cost. And therein lies the rub. Any other line of business, I have to discount, because I know, sooner or later, the profit margin gets squeezed.

Likewise with consumer goods. What do I care if a shirt was made in China? A shirt is a shirt. I only need to compare the quality of that shirt to the asking price. Would I like to see better conditions for the sweatshops in Thailand? Of course. Am I going to spend extra money in a fit of self-righteous protest and buy Made In USA only? Of course not, especially when I think that over 50% of that cost gets gobbled by factors that have nothing to do with producing that shirt, ie unions, admin, insurance etc.

In that case, better that I keep the sweatshop worker busy and have money left over for other things or saving for my own personal pension, since you and I know very well that SS can’t be counted on to be there as hyped. Notwithstanding that the worker makes chump change compared to our standard of living, their SoL is nonetheless rising.

If you want to shop at Goodwill or Salvation Army, more power to you doing what you want with YOUR money. I’ve found plenty of bargains myself. Bottomline is that it has to be a bargain for me.

3) Actually, your example buttresses La Shawn’s position that illegals depress wages. Note the above wage increase from 1999 to 2005, it has barely moved up $1 over 7 years, yet if the DOL labor force estimates are remotely accurate, we see that demand for these painters almost quadrupled. So, here we have a demand for a particular labor skillset, not to mention the hi-$$ in technology capitalization, yet we see only a growth in wages approaching 1.1% annually. This is proof that illegals drive down wages, especially in skilled trades. Certainly compared to my white-collar job where I’ve averaged 4%. But if the illegals could read, write & speak English well, I’d start worrying about my field as well.

Actually, I have 3 major beefs about the illegals. Not that Jorge or Miguel is here or there, but that an unchecked and a thriving black market in labor undermines my ability to launch and sustain a business profitably. I’ve always been of the opinion that to be an employee is to be economically indentured to your employer, hence I don’t buy the class-baiting or the ‘workers’ living wage crap. Yet, if I have to work for another to make ends meet, so be it. I’ll give the boss his 8 hrs and keep an eye out, ready and waiting to make that break when opportunity knocks.

The other couple of points are the resurgence of diseases that at one time were practically extinct. I wonder if rising cases of food poisioning has any connection? And I am certainly against according the rights of citizenship to aliens who haven’t even undergone the rites of citizenship. This part was explicitly dealt with by the constitution, yet our politicians choose to pass the buck and is a classic case of them shirking their responsibilities to ensure that we adhere to the constitution. This is even more egregious when I no longer have the reasonable expectation of understanding or being understood when interacting with services personnel etc.

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year.

Amen to that!!! Trent Lott is no communication genius and we will have to wait and see if anyone in the House rises to any level of important respect. Poor old G.W. is a train wreck (most of the time) when he cuts loose.

But then, the Democrats have made an art form of demagoguery. I don’t know who among them I am inclined to believe that they could even consider putting America first. They are all so entrenched in their own inter-party and intra-party turf wars.

I’m sorry, but I argue that to be an enormously arrogant and false statement. I’ve found communion/togetherness with all manner of people, in a number of different countries. The greed principle and that of self-reflection is not an exclusive domain of organized religion, it is something that affects every one of us. Greed affects and activates sll people, both socially or personally. I can guarantee you that Christians in my country work alongside Muslims ,Pagans, Wiccans, Sikhs, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists and sad old Existentialists. Concepts of self-interest are worked out between those who are affected directly or indirectly, and of course one’s own conscience.

Generally people can (or cannot) all find the strength of character required for altruism. The act of blaming the Devil or the ‘fallen world’ for one’s weaknesses might work for some, but good old cause and effect, or natural empathy, or plain old guilt, or ‘do the right thing’ works for others.

The act of Religious repentance is still often an act of self-interest. One wants to be saved for one’s own ‘God’, who made one in His Likeness. It can be a never-ending eat-all-you-can Egoburger washed down with litres of feel-good-bad-holier than-Them martyrdom. Seriously, how can one *really* accept full blame for one’s own actions when one believes that his strength is historically (forever!)engaged in some supernatural war against the nature of Evil? You must, you know, think: ‘oh well, I did my best in a fallen world and we are all sinners etc’?

I won’t similarly speak for all the millions of people who don’t follow Heliotrope’s logic/assertion that they are ‘out there alone’ regarding curbing self-interest, yet one may literally observe that families/peers/dependents/co-workers play a huge part in such dynamics, regardless of religion.

Those who can afford to turn a ‘blind eye’ are usually those with too much power in their hands, either political, financial, psychological, religious or any mix of them. But I do agree with your policing statement; the slave-driver has been historically proven to have ‘gotten away with it’ whether using the Bible or not.

Repentance is all well and good when caught being a sh*t, but I find that a painful consequence usually hurries things along more effectively, and modifies the next event favourably.

Shield people from natural consequence, and we are back at the start of this discussion!

Regards,

John..

I am a total realist vis a vis capitalism. We can not withdraw from nor escape from the global economy. A huge number of our manufacturing jobs have moved to the cheap labor markets around the world. Furthermore, a vast percentage of those overseas plants have very lax, if any, environmental restrictions. The workers may be very young and work long hours and have minimal housing and scant medical care.

Anyone interested in the scope of all of this should read China, Inc. It is a real eye opener as both a view down from the American market and a view up from the Chinese labor perspective. It is hardly as simplistic a situation as the altruistic shopper might think.

Swift can not outsource meat packing. It must have a labor pool. Nearly every employer faces the problem of labor as the most costly part of production. The fact is that labor from Mexico and Central America has so raised the supply of labor that they have driven the hourly cost (wage) down.

Has Swift (et. al.) lowered the prices? No food producer sets the price of unprocessed meat or vegetables. Everything is auctioned at an exchange somewhere and the buyers determine the price. That is the fact of agriculture, unless the government has entered the picture by guaranteeing a minimum price through subsidies as they have on milk and sugar.

The price of a pound of hamburger, relative to the cost of living has gone down steadily since the 1960′s. The beef industry is always prodding the state department to get foreign markets opened to absorb the beef surplus grown here. Our beef has been shut out in many markets because of the mad cow disease scare we had in Oregon and Vermont a few years ago.

If Swift (et al.) are showing higher profits, it is because they have supplied a product that sells well at auction and they have kept their expenses down. The best way for a laborer at Swift to take advantage of this is to buy stock in the company. However, owning stock is tricky business and a huge dividend in one year may be followed by several years of no dividends and/or a capital loss in the value of the stock.

Swift could make the choice of spending the money to donate its excess product and flying it to Dafur and paying for the costs of distribution. This would bring rave reviews for the company, but it would be a great loss to the stockholders. Since the stockholders are university endowment funds, insurance companies, pension plans, mutual funds and assorted individuals, Swift would suffer the punishment of investors switching to more competently run companies.

I say once again: so long as the state and federal governments treat illegal aliens with a wink and a nod, there is no incentive for the private sector to act differently. Furthermore, the liability for acting differently is huge. If Swift irritated legal aliens they would get jumped on like Merican Airlines and the flying imams.

All the efforts I have seen to deal with the illegal aliens is little more than sweeping dirt under the carpet. And I suspect the best method for getting things in order would be to embark on the sensitive and much debated process of issuing a federal identification card to every US citizen.

And finally, if you expect everyone to act of the basis of conscience, you are encouraging the debasing of the general moral standard. That is an ancient and recorded truth. Those of us who adhere to organized religion are aware of own frailties when it comes to self interest. We admit our sins and depend upon the communion of fellow believers to help us repent and reform. Others are pretty much out there alone. While we all like the concept of “share and share alike” history shows that self interest must be policed.

The large corporations such as meat processors who hire illegal workers have lowered their wages (costs) but they haven’t lowered their prices (profit) The winner is the corporation (and stockhholder) but not the consumer. Now they cry that they will have to raise their prices which is just an excuse to make more profit, simply translated as greed. And they cry to Congress there are no willing workers.

JD

Points 5 and 6

Andy #28, suggested that if a product of the same quality is cheaper, then there can be no reason to buy from another source. He laso suggests that businesses cannot be blamed for hiring illegals unless there is ‘political will’.

I suggested that there *could* be other considerations for buying a product/service other than price alone.

I gave a few examples, including the concept of ‘values’.

Heliotrope responds by attacking a ‘taxation strawman’, which was completely unrelated but nevertheless a bold attempt to demolish my harmless musings.

However, Heliotrope, then you go on to say:

“But capitalism does not run off the exhaust of the tax system.

Although again, unrelated to my point, I will parry your general thrust. OK, am I missing something, or is the buyer/employer (motivated by the purity of capitalism) excused from having any ethical/political/legal reason *not* buy a product/service?

A simple yes or no would suffice. I suggest ‘no’.

Moving on, the attack then grew apace. Using both hands and maybe teeth, we now witness the beginnings of war against the infamous ‘holier than thou’ strawman.

Heliotrope:

“I can guarantee you that JohnD is not wearing clothes woven and fabricated in England because to do so would put him in a choice between eating and staying warm. JohnD wears clothing that is often manufactured at near slave labor.”

(Applause)

Helitotrope, do you ever find yourself forced to go with a tide through lack of choice? Do you suggest businesses MUST employ illegals because labour is cheaper? Do you suggest we MUST buy meat from cruel sources because it is cheaper? Is the dollar the be all and end all of choicemaking?

As you made an assumption about my buying habits, I’ll risk defensing it (again, wince)

I buy 95% of my clothes from Charity stores as a second user. This is because I live in a society of waste, excess, self-adulation. If I can help a charity by buying used clothes then I will.

I simply don’t care about ‘holier than thou’ ‘enemy of capitalism’ strawmen. We all make choices. I use a computer. Loads of ‘near-slave labour’ parts in it. No getting round it. It’s the things we *can* get round we can try and achieve.

A question:

Others often reveal more about themselves when they try to second guess one’s motives.

Maybe you could re-read my comments. If they were unclear, I will attempt to portray more clearly my argument. But please, once again, try and refrain from making personal attacks and assumptions.

Attack the argument, not the speaker. I agree with laShawn that strawmen are no real argument, they just stifle debate. You can’t call everyone who disagrees with you a racist or a socialist. It’s just false.

Such simple rhetoric can be every bit as extreme, condescending and silly as the self-important hyperbole of the ‘capitalism is evil’ crowd.

Now back to the point: Should/does the buyer/employer shoulder *any* responsibility for illgal/unethical trading, or is it all (insert external agency’s)fault?

Regards,

John

1. Pedro Rodriguez applies for a meat packing job. He is wearing a T-shirt that says “Thanks Coyote’s, that was fun. I am totally illegal and I love it.” He can not speak one word of English. The EEOC rep translates for Pedro. He gives a social security number and says he is an orphan, but he was born in Alaska.

2. Are you (the Swift Company) going to question his story? Remember, if he is speaking the truth, the ACLU and the EEOC civil rights folks are down your throat immediately and you will pay out major money for discrimination.

3. There are million(s) of illegal immigrants who have been here for years and can produce records of past employment.

4. Pedro and his buds get pulled over for driving down the wrong side of the interstate at rush hour. If the highway patrol will not act on his citizenship status, why is it up to employer to take the risk?

5. JohnD offers this convoluted attempt at rational thinking: “Cheap goods also have cheap wages and cheap principles attached to them.” Obviously, we could solve every social problem by having a lower standard of living supplemented by confiscatory taxes to support an inflated socialist state in the event we decide not to work. But capitalism does not run off the exhaust of the tax system.

6. We (including JohnD) buy goods produced by cheap labor from everywhere but home. I can guarantee you that JohnD is not wearing clothes woven and fabricated in England because to do so would put him in a choice between eating and staying warm. JohnD wears clothing that is often manufactured at near slave labor.

7. Meat packing does not lend itself to outsourcing. That is to say, it would be STUPID to send cattle to Asia to be chopped up for pennies. Therefore, the job goes to those within the country who will take the job. If immigrants will do it for $14/hour and citizens drop out of the labor market at hourly wages above that…..who the heck will get the jobs? Do I care if my hamburger was ground by native born American hands? DUH!!!!

8. It is not the problem of industry to take expensive, time consuming effort to make certain their employees are all “legit.”
If the government were making an 80% effort to stop “illegal” immigration and to enforce it, the story would be different.

9. I sit on the board of directors of a for-profit hospital. Over 40% of our costs go to avoid malpractice suits. That means, if we could avoid these suits, our prices could be slashed dramatically. However, there is no interest in this, so all the patients pay inflated bills and high insurance premiums. If you leave immigration research and enforcement to the various industries, they will have to tack the price onto the price of the product.

10. Economics is not really complicated, unless your view it from the welfare end of the telescope.

Maybe, but you say:

“As for Walmart and other businesses, making them the scapegoat for our penchant for cheap prices is just silly.”

The penchant for cheap prices not a one-way thing, it is actually a contract between the buyer’s values/pocket and the supplier, . Cheap goods also have cheap wages and cheap principles attached to them. Value is not mentioned in E=MC2, but it exists as a concept and a reality, albeit in a diminishing sense as we become more rapaciously consumerist. Less conservative, in the literal sense.

“Why on earth would I EVER buy something made in USA if I can get the same quality cheaper in China? PERIOD.”

Maybe you wouldn’t want to see your money financially supporting a Communist regime, or outsourcing, or child-labour, or sweatshops, or any ethical/political concern you may have? Just guesses, but I’m sure values still have some mileage against the dollar? Just a few?

The Conservative position used to be about taking personal responsibility, not about blaming everyone else. I see the same happening with illegal immigration. Blame the government, blame liberals, blame the courts, but keep profits high by hiring cheap labour

“The race-baiters would be on them faster than flies on stink. I can just see the headlines: “Racist Company X refused to hire an American citizen for looking Hispanic.”

I think we are seeing race-baiting in reverse here.

For example,

Bob Eisel Powder Coatings, fined over $200,000 for hiring illegal workers this year. Oh, wait, maybe he was just hiring them so he didn’t want to be fined for being ‘racist’? C’mon? The comapny gets a slap on the wrist, the illegals get jailed first and sent back over the border. Everybody’s happy. Although it would be fair if the employer’s were deported to Mexico too

Regards,

JohnD