1. La Shawn, This is a very serious matter in Michigan. Consider the political dynamics that would change if political figures could no longer pander to Black constituents with promises of continued preferences. Theirs is much to lose if the voters win on this issue. Exaggerated claims of race related damage and the demonization of naysayers is good for political business. Keep your fingers crossed. Lots of Liberal do-gooders sit in judgment on issues like these and their personal opinions color justice whenever they dispense it.

   On a lighter note, I enjoy what you do and the way you do it. Happy New Year.

   Comment by Harry Taft — 12.29.06 @ 9:36 am

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2. Just so I understand…..

   In the minds of the protest crowd, equality is achieved through inequality. Is that about it?

   And the sun rises in the west, dry is wet, up is down.

   Ok, got it.

   “logic” this all follow to hard be to going it’s But

   Comment by RedBeard — 12.29.06 @ 10:14 am

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3. There is nothing more “racist” (and I hate using that word) than presuming incompetence on the part of another.

   Sadly, it is the essence of the white Liberal or “do-gooder.” It’s why those folks tend to see their ilk (Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore and John Kerry, etc) as “erudite elites” and Conservatives from Dan Quayle to G W Bush as stumbling, bumbling imbeciles, who aren’t as “enlightened” as they are.

   Of course, these folks are actually pseudo-elites. Al Gore, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry all did far worse in College than did G W Bush.

   Carter was a bright man, with absolutely no common sense and Bill Clinton was another bright man, who’d come up from poverty, but never developped a conscience in his travels.

   Still, Clinton, at least had the common sense to be a pragmatist. He headed the DLC that tried to move the Democratic Party t the Right (back toward the center) and he signed onto 7 of the 10 planks of Gingrich’s “Contract With America.”

   But back to preferences and presumed incompetence - when I first got on the FDNY (back in March of 1986), I worked with a black Battalion Chief named Reggie Julius (a real great guy, who’d worked with my Dad in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn back in the “war years” - the late sixties and early seventies, when ONE THIRD of the buildings in NYC burned down).

   Chief Julius was not only a very bright guy, but he was a real character as well and he had a real problem with race and gender based preferences.

   At that time, I’d met few blacks who opposed such things and was curious, so one day I asked him about it, and his response was, “Every time I walk into a room, I KNOW most of the people in there think I was given these stars (Battalion Chiefs wear two gold stars, one on each collar) and it pisses me off cause I was never given nuthin and never asked to be given nuthin by anybody. I scored at the top of every exam list on every test I took and I resent people assuming I didn’t, but that’s the stigma that quotas put on us - people just assume every black person is unable to compete.”

   Chief Julius had real self pride, not “ethnic pride,” nobody ever “earned” their ethnicity, he was rightfully proud of the person he forged himself into being.

   I think the thing that Chief Julius and other blacks who oppose preferences really understand is that there is no more tacit an endorsement of white supremacy than accepting race/gender-based preferences as necessary, as it endorses black incompetence and thus white supremacy.

   In that regard, the real “white supremacists” are those who support race/gender-based preferences and the blacks who support them are the ones who’ve accepted white supremacy/black incompetence as reality.

   It’s NOT reality.

   It’s a false reality, partially enhanced by the stigma that so-good whites have heaped on those they claim they want to help.

   The problem with “helpers” is that you’re always looking down to those you help and unless you do a lot of self reflection, you can easily slip into feeling “better than” others.

   That’s probably why so much harm has been done in the name of “good intentions.”

   Education is access to knowledge and knowledge is a form of wealth and like any form of wealth, you can only get out of it, what you are able to put in.

   That’s why there are people like Bill Gates and others who’ve used knowledge effectively even though they’ve dropped out of College and why so many Lottery winners quickly wind up bankrupt after a few years - they’re not prepared to leverage that money to earn them even more money, or to “grow their assets.”

   I’d like to believe that most white Liberals aren’t motivated by baser impulses in their support for such things that actually do harm to others, but it’s difficult to believe that.

   Comment by JMK — 12.29.06 @ 11:31 am

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4. #3JMK steps up to bat and knocks it clean out of the park!!!!

   Comment by Heliotrope — 12.29.06 @ 11:42 am

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5. Your very kind Heliotrope, but this has been a major issue for me for a long time. I grew up believing that “blacks hate us,” so I hated them back, even though I really knew none.

   My parents never did, but I got that being immersed in the culture I grew up in (I was in grammar school in the 1960s)…my Dad (a fireman) even took a kid home from Brownsville Brooklyn a few times (I think to both show us kids are kids and to show R that something better existed outside of East New York/Brownsville, Brooklyn) - it didn’t wotk out too well, because R was from such a different world than me. He’d been hustling on the street, robbing pay phones with a handkerchief and stuff like, while I’d been building rafts and making go-carts.

   We had nothing in common, except a deep and abiding suspicion of each other and I think my Dad’s taking him out of Brownsville for a few hours only made things worse for R - it had to be like being born blissfully blind, then getting to see, but only for a few hours, because when my Dad brought him back home he was back to living with a teenaged single Mom, who left him to fend for himself, as she went out and partied.

   Later, when I get into my late teens I actually began to meet some black people and was surprised to find that most of the folks I met were nothing like my preconceptions led me to believe.

   As time went on, I actually came to believe that many blacks were actually more naturally Conservative than most whites were - especially on things like punishment, not therapy, for criminals, the death penalty, the power of prayer and other social issues and I was greatly impressed by that, probably because I knew very little about the likes of Booker T Washington and S B Fuller, at that time.

   By the time I was half through College I could say without hesitation that “Some of the best and some of the worst people I ever knew came from (any given ethnic group),” and I’ve accepted that ideological differences are more fundamental and more profoundly divisive than any others.

   I KNOW that I have far more in common with any Conservative black, than I do with any white who believes in the therapeutic approach to crime, the view that blacks are handicapped and left incompetant by past discrimination and that government should take care of our basic needs.

   My folks had both seemed to know that, being raised in a different age, but for me, it was just one of any number of things it turns out that my early self was wrong about and my folks were right on all along.

   It seems however, that I flubbed a line in that above post, “It’s a false reality, partially enhanced by the stigma that so-good whites have heaped on those they claim they want to help, SHOULD BE, “It’s a false reality, partially enhanced by the stigma that so-called “do-gooder” whites have heaped on those they claim they want to help.”

   Comment by JMK — 12.29.06 @ 12:18 pm

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6. As a lifelong resident of Michigan (particularly the metro-Detroit area) I must take issue with your point of view. As a Black male, to live in a world without discrimination and racial preferences would indeed be ideal, and one I would welcome with open arms. Yet, this is not the empirical “state” or reality in which we exist. Presently, Michigan (again…particularly the metro-Detroit area) is the most racially segregated area in the country.

   http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2002/segregation/b02-390166.htm

   That being said, it should be no suprise that almost 70% of White men voted to ban Affirmative Action in the state. (Note: Blacks account for roughly 10% of the voting pop. in MI.)

   http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006/pages/results/states/MI/I/01/epolls.0.html

   Fourteen years ago I moved out of Detroit to a upper middle-class suburb. When I moved in, the area was almost 80% white. Now, it’s over 80% Black. Ironically there has been no increase in crime, the schools and student test scores are still above those of the inner city and the property values remain stable. Yet the white’s chose to leave…

   http://www.southend.wayne.edu/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1985

   Granted, people can choose to live where ever they wish. As Americans were have the rights, within the law, to make whatever choices for ourselves and our families which we see fit for the greatest amount of happiness. It is blantanly obvious (for whatever reasons) that most white’s choose not to live, worship or educate themselves if there is a “certain” percentage of blacks present. Whereas, the reverse (blacks moving into white enclaves) occurs more than often.

   Within this choice, by most whites, lies the reasons for Affirmative Action. Not as a means to force whites and blacks to live or learn together, but to give access to “everyone” for the same oppotunities for success. Almost every successful black person, including myself, has benefited from AA programs of one type/form or another. This includes a Supreme Court Justice and a fromer Secretary Of State. AA allows access to where there once was very little and in some places no access at all.

   Contrary to some reports, Jennifer Gratz was not “denied” admission to U of M simply because she was “white” (non-minority). At the time when she applied the university used a “points” system for admission. The system gave “preference” to friends of the Provost, certain alumni’s children and friends, men pursing nursing careers, among other perks. Gratz chose to “target” the less than 8% of black freshmen entering the university at the time. Needless to say, there were several black applicants that had higher test scores than hers. Also, Gratz was placed on a waiting list for same year she applied, yet she never followed up on her request for admission. All the students that were on the waiting list were accepted in the fall of the same year.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger

   Comment by P. Anthony Allen — 12.29.06 @ 1:10 pm

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7. Friday Links

   Chavez is shutting down TV station. Typical Leftist hero.If you can stomach it. The worst of the Times. ConspiracyWhy Bush is my Hero. Singleton, agreeing with Ed KochWho would believe this guy? He’s just a general in Iraq. VillainousFrom a LaShawn pi…

   Trackback by Maggie's Farm — 12.29.06 @ 1:29 pm

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8. We’re Suing Ourselves, Again

   The lawsuits and protests against Proposal 2 continue to mount. It’s telling, however, that many state funded organizations are suing the state to block implementation of this voter-approved initiative. La Shawn Barber has a great summary of this situ…

   Trackback by Eureka Iron Works — 12.29.06 @ 1:30 pm

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9. “Yet, this is not the empirical “state” or reality in which we exist. Presently, Michigan (again…particularly the metro-Detroit area) is the most racially segregated area in the country.”

   *gasps*

   You mean people choose to live around people that they relate to? Say it ain’t so. Yes that is definitive proof that racism is holding you back? Please elaborate in what way your life has been negatively impacted by “white flight” and how is AA going to rid you of that “oppression”?

   Comment by Rodney — 12.29.06 @ 1:48 pm

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10. #3

    “I’d like to believe that most white Liberals aren’t motivated by baser impulses in their support for such things that actually do harm to others, but it’s difficult to believe that.”

    Maybe I get to answer the charge? I have fair skin and blue eyes, and strongly refute the politically motivated pseudo science of race (Bell Curve etc). I also have a natural aversion to religious dogma, patriarchs, nationalists and fundamentalists. I support trade yet don’t support unprincipled corporatism, and by these standards I suppose I get called ‘liberal’ in today’s America (plus the fact I’m from Europe).

    So I am (probably) supposed to support ‘affirmative action’ because I have ‘baser impulses’?

    If I offered to help some kids in a poor district to go to a better school, I would presumably be called by you to answer for my ‘looking down upon them’? For ‘presuming incompetence’?

    Wrong. In my diminishing spare time I instruct, fund and organize groups of children from inner cities in outdoor pursuits with physically handicapped (mostly spinal)teenagers from simlar areas. I suppose, alternately, I could give my time to rich kids, or well-off middle class kids, but I don’t. Why? Because I’m a do-ggoder? BEcause I’m a ‘racist?’

    I’d say 7 kids asian, 9 african and 4 white. Just kids in my book. You judge me as you will.

    Anyway, I enjoy teaching, I enjoy the outdoors, and I have learned (in my career) Makaton and BSL languages so I am using my skills. It’s fun and rewarding, that’s mostly why I work with kids, plus I love the outdoors.

    So, is the ‘preference’ for offering these activities to disabled and poverty-stricken/slum kids proof of ‘presuming incompetence’?

    Wrong.

    As an instructor I am both presuming AND expecting competence from these kids. Disabled kids can be competent, often moreso. Poor kids with poor social skills and no awareness of anything outside an arguing family and frozen food CAN learn to cook, hunt, grow things, do maths, sport, group activities AND carry the sh*tcan - albeit with a financial leg-up, and a GREATER expectation than many of these kid’s parent’s might provide. I say many, because it is certainly not all.

    I don’t see all ‘affirmative action’ as automatically bad, and certainly not all motivated by ‘looking down’ on people (’racism’ as you called it).

    In an ideal world, limited so-called ‘affirmative action’ would be a long-term useful leg-up for many poverty-stricken neighbourhoods and uneducated families, but without mentoring/tutoring/targetted goals (and political rhetoric being magnetized to race and ‘groups’ as it is!), then any notion of ‘affirmative action’ becomes a ‘race-issue’ (on both sides of the far-left/far-right) to wave about as further rhetoric and proof that ‘They’ are the ‘racist ones’

    I understand that my take on affirmative action is not race-based, and I find any ‘race-based’ politics to plainly silly yet I find the notion that ‘blacks’ (as a group) are easily led by scheming/elitist patronizing ‘whites’ just as offensive as the notion that ‘whites’ (as a group) are elitist and scheming/patronizing.

    Regards,

    John

    Comment by JohnD — 12.29.06 @ 2:03 pm

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11. JMK great comments. I too had many unfounded assumptions about others. I truly thought that the hardest part of wanting to be successful and make money out there in the world was going to be having to get along with white people. I truly thought around every corner at every company or with any opportunity a white man was waiting to do me some wrong. I even avoided white society by refusing to attend San Diego State, why? Too many white people!! After joining the Marine Corps reserve and actually meeting and interacting with many White people the scales were removed from my eyes. Hey people are alike. Some racist a-holes in every race but by and large very few. Only meeting and interacting with people of other races diminishes racism. The legislation that ends racism does not exist. The belief that it does is a fairytale.

    Comment by Rodney — 12.29.06 @ 2:11 pm

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12. sorry for the rushed post, I meant ’short-term’ leg-up’.

    PS. Best Wishes for 2007 to LaShawn & all (OK, even to the ‘meanies’) I’ll be mercifully absent on work-things for the next 2 months at least.

    All the best,

    John

    Comment by JohnD — 12.29.06 @ 2:24 pm

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13. I can see absolutely no benefit that people get from living with ethnically diverse groups of people, P Anthony.

    Ethnic diversity is value-neutral - that is, it is neither a positive nor a negative value.

    Japan and Iceland do incredibly well with their homogeneous (non-diverse) populations, and places like Britain and France are now suffering with increasing diversity, albeit the root cause of those nation’s problem seems to be an increasing Muslim population, not mere ethnic diversity.

    Self-segregation is a fact of life.

    I dealt with it in College, where the bulk of both blacks & whites CHOSE to sit together in class and in the cafeteria. I was one of two white players on the basketball team and saw this first-hand - sometimes members of the team would sit together and other times, they went their own ways.

    Again, the problem with the very premise of race/gender preferences is the presumed incompetence it is rooted in.

    Given that there is no such thing as “test bias,” (there isn’t), as Thomas Sowell has shown that the area with the greatest ethnic variance on such standardized exams, isn’t the verbal section, as most would think, but the math section and in math, as Dr. Sowell notes, “Numbers are the same in the inner city, as they are in the suburbs,” so the ONLY rationalization for race/gender preferences is the presumed incompetence of those groups who are deemed to require such preferences.

    Are “donor,” “alumni” and “geographic” preferences equally wrong?

    Of course, in my view they are, though for different reasons - donor & alumni preferences amount to an illicit quid pro quo that shouldn’t exist in the admissions process, while geographic preferences are themselves rooted in the fallacy that “geographic diversity” holds some mythic value that it quantifiably does not, as it too, is value neutral.

    The fact is that most blacks prefer to live among other blacks, most whites among other whites and Hispanics among Hispanics. It may well be a false comfort, but for many, it is a comforting factor none-the-less.

    It is probably why some blacks vehemently opposed the gentrification of Harlem and Bill Clinton opening an office up there almost ten years ago. They saw Harlem as “their community,” and didn’t want it changed.

    Since Harlem has been “gentrified” many blacks have moved out, though some would say “they were forced out due to rising rents, etc.,” it’s just as true that many of them reacted the same way that many whites do when a white area becomes predominantly black or Hispanic - there’s a sense of “not belonging,” that comes with that and that is what many of the blacks who’ve left Harlem have articulated.

    Choice, even short-sighted choice doesn’t necessarily make one a bigot, because while bigotry is malevolent, such personal choices usually aren’t. For instance, to a white male who is attracted to black women, a black women asserting that she’s only interested in dating black males, might seem “prejudicial,” if only because it impacts him negatively, but that woman certainly and without question has a basic right to date whomever she pleases, doesn’t she?

    Indeed, I can’t imagine anyone denying that she has a basic human right to be discriminating in her own tastes. We ALL do, and we exercise such “discrimination” when choosing the color of our car, or the walls of our home, or our favorite foods…and yes, often when we choose our friends.

    In fact, that’s why preferences on standardized exams are not only wrong, but patently absurd. So long as the same exam is given to everyone, the rim is the same 10′ for us all.

    Now, if one were to argue that the jobs that DON’T rely on any standardized criteria and rely entirely upon the subjective “interview process,” then I’d agree that THAT system relies on too many subjective, non-standardized criteria to be considered “fair.” An interviewer black or white, may subconcsciously have an aversion to a candidate of a different background. I’ve always felt that such interviews should be vocoded (so you couldn’t tell if its a man or woman by voice) and in a sort of Confessional box, where you couldn’t see anything bu the interviewee’s silhouette, ideally, in my view, most jobs should be filled via some objective, quantifiable standards, ideally some form of standardized exam.

    Bottom line, any and all race/gender preferences violate both equal access to opportunity, as well as equality before the law. Of that, there is no question, for to give a preference to one ethnic group or gender is to deny that same preference (access to opportunity) and indeed inflict a barrier upon another.

    The very idea of ethnic pereferences spits in the face of the most basic principles this country was founded upon.

    Comment by JMK — 12.29.06 @ 2:50 pm

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14. “You mean people choose to live around people that they relate to? Say it ain’t so. Yes that is definitive proof that racism is holding you back? Please elaborate in what way your life has been negatively impacted by “white flight” and how is AA going to rid you of that “oppression”?”

    Never said I felt “oppressed”! Never said, nor thought, “white-flight” had any effects on me personally. Never said “racism” affected me in any way.

    I did say people can live among whomever they choose!

    I did say “most” whites (as empirical evidence shows) choose not to live in area’s that are mostly black, whereas, the opposite doe’s occur with concern to blacks. Your statement implies that [these] whites, have chosen to live “around people they relate to”.

    *gasp* Only live around the race you “relate” to?
    (NOOO…That can’t be ah…”racist?” Huh?)

    As I stated, this is their right. But you must keep in mind that blacks only make up 9% of the freshman class at the U of M, and roughly 12% of this country as a whole. Thus, if the “white majority” group of Americans wishes only to “relate” with Americans of the same race, inevitably there will be inequities, [some large, some small, some noticeable, some not] but inequities just the same.

    Comment by P. Anthony Allen — 12.29.06 @ 3:31 pm

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15. “As I stated, this is their right. But you must keep in mind that blacks only make up 9% of the freshman class at the U of M, and roughly 12% of this country as a whole. Thus, if the “white majority” group of Americans wishes only to “relate” with Americans of the same race, inevitably there will be inequities, [some large, some small, some noticeable, some not] but inequities just the same.” (P Anthony Allen)

    Aren’t ALL groups guilty of that same sort of patterning?

    I believe they are, as the gentrification of Harlem shows, but your point about inequities rising from this sort of self-segregation or voluntary segregation is valid…to this degree, in my view, that it certainly would seem to have a greater impact on areas where subjective criteria (like interviews) are used.

    Standardized exams, as flawed as they may be, are at least objective, quantifiable criteria that can be customized to various job related tasks.

    As I said, donor, alumni and geographic preferences are also wrong, though for different reasons (donor & alumni preferences = an illicit quid pro quo) and geographic preferences are based on an erroneous myth that such “diversity” holds some positive value. I’d argue that ideological diversity haolds far more value, as it challenges conventional thinking and leads to educational argument.

    Also overlooked is the harm that such preferences have done to many well-off blacks. Black students in high performing school districts often underachieve because they intuitively know that they’re only being compared to other blacks, most who come from poorer environs, and poorer schools and this is no benefit to these well-off black students.

    Besides the fact that underachieving (doing the minimum) becomes habitual, they’re often admitted into schools that are far more competitive than their grades and test scores would place them, resulting in far more drop-outs among that group.

    Again, if you are challenging the subjective interview process and calling it “inherantly unfair,” I can agree with that, but seeking ethnic preferences and the downgrading of standardized exams (the SAT, various Civil Service titles, etc), I’m dead set against that.

    Like I said, as flawed as these vehicles (standardized exams) may be, they’re a whole lot better than the subjective alternative.

    Comment by JMK — 12.29.06 @ 3:49 pm

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16. “I can see absolutely no benefit that people get from living with ethnically diverse groups of people, P Anthony.”

    Honestly, neither do I. Ethnic diversity is a pipe-dream not only perpetrated by liberals, but conservatives alike. Don’t get me wrong though. All Americans living together in “harmony”, Kumbaya, and all that jazz… would be nice, but, it just don’t work that way.

    “The fact is that most blacks prefer to live among other blacks”

    Not true. Most blacks in inner cities (and blacks in poorer rural areas) bear the brunt of poor schools, crime, urban blight and decay. If asked rather living among other blacks in these area’s is preferable to living among whites under better conditions, 99% would choose the latter. I’m sure most would feel out of place and seek out other blacks or even make return trips to the “old nieghborhood” to socialize. Yet a ticket out of the “ghetto” is what many blacks dream of, and the idea of “movin’ on up” is to live around whites. Moreover, it has become common place for upper-class blacks to “seek-out” majority “white” areas in which to live.

    Now of course “any one” would chose to live under safe conditions and better surroundings, yet, as I stated earlier, most middle-class whites do not wish to live in an area that has a majority black population “regaurdless” of the security and prosperity.

    Comment by P. Anthony Allen — 12.29.06 @ 4:19 pm

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17. “Honestly, neither do I. Ethnic diversity is a pipe-dream not only perpetrated by liberals, but conservatives alike. Don’t get me wrong though. All Americans living together in “harmony”, Kumbaya, and all that jazz… would be nice, but, it just don’t work that way.”

    I just don’t agree with that. Most cities in America (including fairly small Rust Belt cities like Cleveland and Pittsburgh and Detroit) have enclaves where there is a ton of ethnic diversity and prosperity, and where people seek to live specifically because of the diversity of such areas (where, in short, the pipe-dream exists), and there is minimal white flight. I’m thinking specifically of Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights or Squirrel Hill in the Rust Belt.

    I don’t kno

    Comment by tvd — 12.29.06 @ 5:01 pm

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18. “Now of course “any one” would chose to live under safe conditions and better surroundings, yet, as I stated earlier, most middle-class whites do not wish to live in an area that has a majority black population “regaurdless” of the security and prosperity.” (P Anthony Allen)

    The fact is that, given the choice of living in similar conditions, people of ALL races tend to prefer to live among “their own.”

    The exceptions are, virtually all individual and cut across all racial/ethnic lines.

    As I said, the gentrification of Harlem proves that blacks feel a sense of “no longer belonging” to what they perceive to be a “changing community,” just as all other groups do.

    Still, as peskily persistent as this kind of personal choice may be, it does not, in and of itself, rise to the level of malevolence or bigotry.

    From this phenomenon, one could make a case against solely subjective criteria, like interviews, etc, but certainly NOT against standardized testing, which when the same exam is given to all (like with the SATs, various Civil Service exams, etc) the rim is set at that same 10′ for everyone.

    As much as I abhor alumni and donor preferences, they are not ethnically or religiously discriminatory, as the scion of black alums and black donors, Jewish donors and Jewish alums also get these sort of preferences. Same with geographic preferences, they are open to all groups, from those “favored geographic areas.”

    Make no mistake, those are all flawed preferential programs as well, BUT race/gender preferences are unique in their violating the principles of both equality before the law (treating various ethnic groups differently) and equal access to opportunity (by granting preferences, or favored status to one group, they deny equal access and create barriers for others).

    Indeed if there were some way to rationally justify race/gender preferences in school admissions or entry level job applications, I’d acknowledge it, but the fact is that not only does it violate those two basic principles above, it also endorses the view of black incompetence and white supremacy.

    I believe old Chief Reggie Julius was right, those whites who defend such preferences are white supremacist in their thinking (looking down on blacks), and those blacks who endorse them have bought into that mythology and accept their “lesser than” station.

    That, in my view, is the real trauma that affirmative action’s race/gender-based preferences have inflicted upon America.

    Comment by JMK — 12.29.06 @ 5:10 pm

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19. “I believe old Chief Reggie Julius was right, those whites who defend such preferences are white supremacist in their thinking (looking down on blacks), and those blacks who endorse them have bought into that mythology and accept their “lesser than” station.

    That, in my view, is the real trauma that affirmative action’s race/gender-based preferences have inflicted upon America. ”

    All that is psychological and intangible.

    The tangible benefits of AA: since AA has been enacted, the majority of black folks are middle class. With respect to education (hat tip Booker Rising):

    “From 1993 to 2003, black enrollment at the nation’s colleges and universities surged nearly 43 percent, to more than 1.9 million students. Students of color made up 27.8 percent of nearly 17 million students on campuses across the country, up from 21.8 percent in 1993. And, according to ‘The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education,’ blacks in 2004 earned an all-time high of 131,241 bachelor’s degrees from four-year American colleges and universities, up 6 percent from 2003 and more than twice that of 1990.”

    Surely, the blacks in America who are succeeding (over 90% of which support the party that supports AA) are not buying into any “less than” mentality…?

    Comment by tvd — 12.29.06 @ 6:01 pm

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20. Not a single one of those things you mention can be attributed to race-based preferences tvd, because from 1993 through 2003 race/gender-based preferences were actually scaled back.

    Again, the flaws with race/gender based preferences are two-fold, (1) they violate the principles of equality before the law & equal access to opportunity by conferring an arbitrary “favored status” on specific groups, creating a barrier for those from other groups and (2) perpetuating the stigma of “presumed incompetence” on the part of the recipients of such preferences.

    The reason no one’s yet argued against those two points is that there exist no legitimate arguments against them.

    Comment by JMK — 12.29.06 @ 6:26 pm

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21. “because from 1993 through 2003 race/gender-based preferences were actually scaled back.”

    Don’t think that’s true, but I’d like to see your data.

    “Again, the flaws with race/gender based preferences are two-fold, (1) they violate the principles of equality before the law & equal access to opportunity by conferring an arbitrary “favored status” on specific groups, creating a barrier for those from other groups and”

    A barrier for what group of people, exactly? White men? How have white men, as a group (since you are discussing “group” barriers) been hurt by affirmative action?

    “(2) perpetuating the stigma of “presumed incompetence” on the part of the recipients of such preferences.”

    There was a stigma of presumed incompetence for minorities that predated affirmative action.

    Even if I were to concede your points about the flaws of the system, there is clear and present evidence that affirmative action helps substantially more people than it hurts.

    Comment by tvd — 12.29.06 @ 6:41 pm

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22. And, in any event, the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment felt that affirmative action did not violate the “principles of equality”–what’s wrong with reading the equal protection clause the way it was intended?

    Comment by tvd — 12.29.06 @ 6:44 pm

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23. An update on the legal front … this evening (about 3 hours ago) the 6th Circuit lifted the preliminary injunction — which means Proposal 2 will be implemented immediately. The decision also debunks many of the claims made by BAMN, the ACLU, the NAACP, the Universities, etc. The decision can be read here: http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/06a0476p-06.pdf

    Comment by Jennifer Gratz — 12.29.06 @ 10:47 pm

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24. I’ve read the 14th Amendment several times, but I’ve never seen anything there calling for affirmative action.

    Comment by RedBeard — 12.30.06 @ 9:50 am

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25. There is no question tvd, that whenever a preferecne is given to one or more groups it adversely impacts and creates and arbitrary and illegal barrier to all who do not receive that preference, ergo, such preferences (short of the quid pro quo that exists in athletic, military service, donor and alumni preferences) violate the principles of BOTH (1) equality beofre the law (treating various groups differently) and (2) equal ACCESS to opportunity.

    In short, there is NO argument that can rationalize ethnic or gender-based preferences, especially when arguing that standardized exams create a “disparate impact,” upon certian groups.

    So long as the exmas are the same for all, the rim’s 10′ for everyone.

    And preferences CREATE a stigma of presumed incompetence becasue they endorse the ideas that (1) blacks are unable to compete with whites and (2) that they need this crutch due to their handicap of ethnicity.

    The fact od the matter is that blacks don’t NEED such crutches, as there is no medical prrof that they, as a group, suffer any intellectual deficit, compared to any other group.

    The primary reason that poor performing school districts perform poorly is that fewer parents in those districts stress, or even care much about their children’s education….and that, in and of itself, is no rationale for preferences or quotas.

    There are many high-performing children who come from poor-performing school districts and vice versa, again, no rationale for any sort of preference or quota.

    Comment by JMK — 12.30.06 @ 4:06 pm

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26. Affirmative Action is far from equality. Blacks who support this view have been dumbed down beyond belief. The people that support AA still believe that our society today is as it was forty years ago. I can’t imagine I would ever except a job due to my color meeting a company’s hiring “preference”.

    Comment by Tyrone — 12.30.06 @ 5:15 pm

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27. It’s also important to note that opposing preferences is not the same as opposing outreach. I think it’s a great thing that companies and Municipalities are recruiting people from “disadvantaged areas,” and such, but the idea that poor = dumb, is a terrible one.

    There are a lot of poor people with great minds.

    My wife was born and raised in Kingston, Jamaica in grinding poverty, but she was exceptionally bright and very motivated. She was skipped a few grades in grammar school and put on the advanced educational track and received her Chartered Accountancy (the English version of the CPA) at 18 and came to the USA and earned a degree in Accounting from Baruch College (CUNY) and garnered her CPA here.

    She’s not only a great person, she’s one of the brightest people I’ve ever known.

    Comment by JMK — 12.30.06 @ 6:22 pm

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28. We hire on a strict equal opportunity basis. That means everyone gets an equal chance; it doesn’t mean that we guarantee equality of outcome.

    As for outreach, we do that by placing help wanted ads in the newspapers. After that, it’s up to the individuals to show up to be interviewed, and up to the individuals to show us why we should hire them. And once this process is done, we hire the best person, regardless of race, gender, or age.

    That’s equality.

    Comment by RedBeard — 12.30.06 @ 7:33 pm

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29. Steele argues that racism, in whatever form it exists in 2006, is no longer an impediment to blacks. Certain social pathologies, generated by blacks themselves, are the culprits. Steele captures the story of my blogging life.

    My Father came all the way from Africa and got his PH.D in UCLA. I remember him saying that there were a good number of black people in UCLA then. Now that we have decided to follow the wishes of Lashawan,Steele and the like how many black students do we have there today? Is it really true that blacks were more serious about education in the past like the case in UCLA than today?
    I am sick and tired of the conservatives that attack the black race day in and day out.
    Could you show me the statistics that prove racism does not exist anymore?
    I am yet to see, like in the case of education,statistics that show black kids watch TV more than white kids(thereby destroying their progress),blacks kids party more than white kids,black kids recieve more intervention in the high school arena than white kids etc and all other socio-economic factors that affect black kids in comparison to white kids.
    On the other hand a few days ago, I paid for a book online that is called the MSAR(Medical school Admission Requirements Handbook).It is the “bible for admission into medical college” and it blew me out of the water the number of admissions that whites got in comparison to blacks all over the country in the medical colleges. I was quick in noticing,in the final analysis that the minority student had his life determined by a “board for admissions” that had no supervision and pretty much ruled as gods in determining what would happen to a person’s admission chances,a culture in which racism could rule in its most subtle form.
    I live in Arizona and the African community was a buzz in the last three years about the concerted efforts to remove any person of color from policy and decision making positions in every sector of the state’s economy. It ranged from Medical doctors as directors of hospitals to Senior faculty members in the universities to COO’s,CIO’s,CFO’s,CEO’s in every sector etc. All under the umbrella of the right-to-work-state philosophy.
    When men like Steele talk about the absence of impediments does he talk about the whole United States of America?
    Has Steele ever listened to the victims of this game called racism being played in this country.I mean educated individuals who are very reluctant to press the race button or is this Steele and his cohorts way of remaining in the spotlight/limelight of certain idealogies?

    Affirmative Action is far from equality. Blacks who support this view have been dumbed down beyond belief. The people that support AA still believe that our society today is as it was forty years ago. I cant imagine I would ever except a job due to my color meeting a companys hiring preference.

    Comment by Tyrone 12.30.06 @ 5:15 pm

    Is this guy kidding.I have seen as a person of color that lives in Arizona that there are certain jobs that are not meant for people of color.No matter how qualified you are you will not get the job,period. On the other hand, I would like to know the race of the guy that posted this illusion that makes him/her feel better about the prejudices he/she may be facing out there.
    Please do not get me wrong.I would love to pretend that there are no invisible barriers and policies out there towards people of color but when I do time and time again I have been proven wrong. In the final analysis,I just feel that there so many realities in this country that Steele has no right to impose his version of “reality” on us.
    Some people refuse to face reality.

    Comment by Idiongo — 12.30.06 @ 8:04 pm

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30. #29 Idiongo apparently has civil rights problems in Arizona.

    By the 2000 census, 2.9% of Arizonans are blacks 18 and over. The Arizona bar has several hundred black lawyers.

    I suggest that Idiongo take his facts of racial discrimination and get rich quick through litigation.

    It would not be necessary to hire a black lawyer, but I suspect that Idiongo would be more at home with a black lawyer.

    However, I suggest that Idiongo hire the best attorney for the job, without regard to race or previous condition of affirmative action.

    Comment by Heliotrope — 12.30.06 @ 9:00 pm

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31. Idiongo, could you show me exactly where it was that I attacked the black race? Or where anyone did so?

    I’ll be darned, I’ve re-read all the comments, and I can’t find those passages anywhere.

    Comment by RedBeard — 12.31.06 @ 10:09 am

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32. Idiongo, could you show me exactly where it was that I attacked the black race? Or where anyone did so?

    I’ll be darned, I’ve re-read all the comments, and I can’t find those passages anywhere.

    Comment by RedBeard — 12.31.06 @ 10:09 am

    I would like to smile based on your posting but this is really serious. I copied those comments from the main page introducing this topic and from the comments of a guy called Tyrone(posting #26).
    Lets get one thing right Mr Redbeard.This is not a joke. I will also ignore your insults of asking at which point did anybody attack a black man in the history of the USA. Your question effectively eliminates the fact that there is Racism or Hate Crimes or anything that has to do apparently with discrimination.
    You know,there will never be statistics to show the effects of Jealousy or Envy in a society like that of the USA because it can be easily denied just like you have done. We will never be able to get the true statistics of how many Americans hate Arabs since 9/11 because it is a thing of the mind that can be easily denied.
    Just because luckily you are not a partaker of the crime/phenomena that has even generated in the history of the USA a movement(The Civil Rights Movement)does not mean that people like Martin Luther King Jnr were following the ravings of their minds that had lost touch with reality.
    Let me say this;I would like to move on and believe that everybody in the USA today is treated fairly.Sadly,this is not the case.
    It is unfortunate that the mechanisms that were created to minimize the damaging effects of your race attitudes towards others make you feel so bad.Statistics however show that the black race would have been left behind in the gutters if these systems like(Affirmative Action) were not put into place.
    Do I like Affirmative action? No.Does it stop people like Redbeard from feigning ignorance and creating more harm and chaos? Yes.

    #29 Idiongo apparently has civil rights problems in Arizona.

    By the 2000 census, 2.9% of Arizonans are blacks 18 and over. The Arizona bar has several hundred black lawyers.

    I suggest that Idiongo take his facts of racial discrimination and get rich quick through litigation.

    It would not be necessary to hire a black lawyer, but I suspect that Idiongo would be more at home with a black lawyer.

    However, I suggest that Idiongo hire the best attorney for the job, without regard to race or previous condition of affirmative action.

    Comment by Heliotrope — 12.30.06 @ 9:00 pm

    My point was;in a state in which discrimination is so entrenched with excuses like “right-to-work state” or “conservativism” would you kick against a movement that suddenly advocated for Affirmative Action? You point at civil rights,I say that it is closely connected to Affirmative Action.
    This is not about my needing a black or white lawyer. I don’t care which race represents me in court but how about a court system that has been completely overwhelmed by certain idealogies?
    Ask any lawyer in Arizona,establishing a case of discrimination in Arizona is like passing through the eye of a needle.
    Also Heliotrope I would like you to show me where you got your statistics that there is “hundreds” of black lawyers in Arizona.
    Through the excesses of Affirmative Action Caucasians are now feeling what it is like to be discriminated against and they are lashing out in droves. I hope it will help them to stop discriminating against others in the future too.

    Comment by Idiongo — 12.31.06 @ 12:10 pm

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33. Speaking of the word “attack”….I have noticed that this word has assumed a whole new meaning in the common “liberal” vernacular. It has simply come to mean “having a difference of opinion,” or more accurately, disagreeing with a liberal.

    Comment by jan — 12.31.06 @ 12:11 pm

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34. “I have seen as a person of color that lives in Arizona that there are certain jobs that are not meant for people of color.No matter how qualified you are you will not get the job,period. (Indiongo)

    The problem, Idiongo, is that you’ve failed to give a single instance of demonstrable direct discrimination.

    There are many Civil Service jobs that rely upon standardized exams for entrance level hiring, and other kinds of standardized exams are also used in College admissions.

    It CAN be proven that many of these exams have a “disparate impact,” (ie. fewer blacks pass them than other groups), BUT that disparate impact is NOT, in and of itself, proof any deliberate or dircet discrimination.

    Moreover, those standadized exams for all those Civil Service jobs were designed to eradicate and earlier and more widespread form of discrimination - nepotism, cronyism and patronage, which existed in many parts of the U.S. until around the 1930s, when it was replaced by “the Merit System” - that phalynx of standardized exams.

    Real discrimination cases ARE fairly rare, because it’s rare that a person can forward with demonstrable proof that they’ve been deliberately discriminated against.

    Something people should remember is that exam scores are fluid and so are the differences between the various ethnic groups. What exists now is a different picture than what existed twenty years ago and the picture twenty years hence will probably look somewhat different than it does today.

    Those who insist on claiming that “disparate impact” = discrimination are not only very wrong, but short-sighted as well.

    All those Civil Service exams are open to everyone in any state they’re offered. Some tests are harder than others, but that’s because the standards for some jobs are higher. There’s nothing at all discriminatory about that.

    Comment by JMK — 12.31.06 @ 3:20 pm

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35. #32 Idiongo asks: “Also Heliotrope I would like you to show me where you got your statistics that there is “hundreds” of black lawyers in Arizona.”

    There is a registry that will give you this information by contacting the Arizona Bar Association. You can also get the information by contacting the University of Arizona School of Law. They will also be able to tell you how many blacks are currently enrolled in programs leading to a law degree. It is often more productive to find the telephone number of a contact than it is to piddle around on a web site.

    With 108,000 blacks in Arizona who are 18 and older do you find it remarkable that up to a half of one per cent of them might have law degrees?

    I suspect that if you look around the upscale areas you will find a fairly sizable number or black lawyers, doctors, dentists, architects, engineers, etc.

    The vast majority of people will pay for quality without regard to skin color, place of origin, religion, etc.

    Comment by Heliotrope — 12.31.06 @ 6:42 pm

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36. Idiongo, please try to follow me here. You have jumped to a false conclusion, as evidenced by your comment: “I will also ignore your insults of asking at which point did anybody attack a black man in the history of the USA.” Of course I said no such thing, and insulted no one. I was obviously refering to this blog topic, meaning that no one here on this thread has “attacked the black race.” It would seem that you’re so anxious to unload some of that heavy anger burden you carry that you missed my point rather completely.

    Comment by RedBeard — 12.31.06 @ 7:19 pm

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37. Indiongo said; “I will also ignore your insults of asking …It is unfortunate that the mechanisms that were created to minimize the damaging effects of your race attitudes towards others make you feel so bad…Does it stop people like Redbeard from feigning ignorance and creating more harm and chaos…”

    Redbeard, I assumed all this time that you were speaking in “plain” English, only to discover that you were speaking in “code.” If Idiongo could find all of that meaning in your post, we need to send him on the hunt for Osama, cuz this lad can find anything…

    (a ripoff of a joke from AC)

    Comment by jan — 12.31.06 @ 8:54 pm

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38. When one is a victimist, one can find all sorts of grivances by reading into the white space, erm blanks? Null? Neutral zone?, erm whatever doesn’t exist between the lines.

    Seems like no matter how I try to describe the lack of anything between each line, the terms seem loaded with double-entendres. /shrug.

    In any case, it’s not too often that I meet a 1 st gen African-American who has bought into the black victimology, lock, stock & barrel. Must be something to do with keeping it real, whatever that means.

    As for Indiongo’s shocking discovery about the low rate of blacks in higher ed, did it ever occur that HS & pre-med grades might be the strongest indicator as to why one might not cut it? I’d sure hate to trust a 2.0 GPA doctor with a life-threatening diagnosis. More so if the below-average doc got the sheepskin based on race and not what’s between the ears. If that’s racist, then so be it.

    Comment by Andy — 12.31.06 @ 10:21 pm

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39. To P. Anthony Allen @ #6.
    “Presently, Michigan (again…particularly the metro-Detroit area) is the most racially segregated area in the country.

    [SNIP]

    That being said, it should be no suprise that almost 70% of White men voted to ban Affirmative Action in the state. (Note: Blacks account for roughly 10% of the voting pop. in MI.)

    [SNIP]

    Fourteen years ago I moved out of Detroit to a upper middle-class suburb. When I moved in, the area was almost 80% white. Now, it’s over 80% Black. Ironically there has been no increase in crime, the schools and student test scores are still above those of the inner city and the property values remain stable. Yet the white’s chose to leave… ”

    As a general rule of thumb, one shouldn’t quote CNN or Detroit news, especially for facts, except to point out the MSM’s biases, shortcomings or omissions of truth. Voting pop? Is that 10% of all registered voters or what?

    Better to use an authoritive source like the census:
    http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-5.pdf
    To wit, Blacks make up 14% of the MI population and 82% of the Detroit population (yeah, the same pop that overwhelmingly voted to give another term to that thug hip-hopper Kwame). Him and his mom, what a racket.

    Census.gov and bls.gov are loaded with juicy data, spend some time there and you just might find some eye openers.

    So I find it hard to swallow that 70% of the white men who voted against AA were responsible for upending the status quo. Plus, I know of several black Detroit churches that rail against AA, race-victimology and the unhealthy reliance on Uncle Sugar. Do their voices count or are they outcast from the rest of the plantation?

    As for pinning the fault for white flight, one may try looking at Mayor Extraodinaire Coleman. Is it any wonder that his unrelenting campaign of race politics provided white Detroiters to get up and git as far away from his jurisdiction?

    Watching Detroit for the past 30 years is like watching a train-wreck in excruciatingly slow-motion.

    As for your assertion that crime didn’t increase or test scores drop when the population flipped. I think it’s hard to quantify something as worse, when it’s already the murder capital armpit of America.

    I think I know whereof I speak, Detroit was heading downhill when I attended public elementary school on the NW side over by Oakman & 12th in the late 60s/early 70s. Back in the day when Longfellow was notorious.

    In ‘75, my parents decided to not only put us in private school, but to move us some 80 miles north to Flint. Unfortunately, there is something contagious about race-politics, as Flint descended into it’s own death spiral and is in turn the armpit of MI.

    As I see it, it’s all self-inflicted.

    Ciao!

    Comment by Andy — 12.31.06 @ 11:07 pm

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40. Idiongo, I was going to attempt a point-by-point rebuttal of your posts, but I can see that there is no point. I won’t bother trying to reason with you because reason obviously deserted you long ago. I wish you could read your own posts with someone else’s eyes. They come across as the words of a lunatic and possibly dangerous conspiracy theorist.

    I might humbly suggest that if you are not getting everything you want out of life, it quite possibly has nothing to do with the color of your skin and everything to do with the content of your character.

    Comment by Cousin Dave — 01.02.07 @ 2:53 pm

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41. I am often amazed at how the debate over Affirmative Action descends into over-hyped rhetoric. Nothing about the debate talks about solutions to the issue underlying the implementation of Affirmative Action. Let’s be honest, those in favor of dismantling Affirmative Action are not doing so for altruistic motives. Instead, their focus is truly on preserving the income and educational gaps that exist between ethnic groups and social classes. This rationale is born out the fact that you never hear or see any of the proponents of these amendments actively working to improve the educational situations of those in the poorest neighborhoods or doing anything else to increase those person’s ability to compete.

    On the other hand, those often in favor of Affirmative Action have no basis for their support of the policy. Most blindly support the policy because they were told by someone or some group that they needed to support it. The supporters have also failed to provide positive solutions to enhance the ability of all to compete for jobs and admission.

    Make no mistake, racism still exists today and will continue until Jesus returns. Constantly talking about racism or Affirmative Action will not change that sad reality. So the question is what do we as Americans do about it? Do we continue a tired debate? Or do we work to remove the basis for Affirmative Action? (Just eliminating the policy does not address the underlying problems).

    I say the latter. The education of all citizens should be of paramount importance to all. The routine and basic jobs that don’t require much formal education are being outsourced daily. The jobs remaining in the U.S. will require our kids to have more education. If we want the best future for our kids, we must work together and come up with solutions that matter; not simply rehash canned arguments.

    Comment by Antonio — 01.02.07 @ 7:23 pm

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42. Antonio, I would dispute your first paragraph above. I oppose AA because it is inherently racist in nature and because it is insulting to the very people it is supposed to help. I’m not trying to maintain a gap.

    I don’t even understand that statement (or accusation) to be frank. I support school vouchers as an excellent way to give all kids, regardless of circumstances, a shot at good schooling. That’s hardly the M.O. of someone who wants to keep anyone down.

    Comment by RedBeard — 01.02.07 @ 7:44 pm

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43. Redbeard,

    First, my statement was a general one. Of course, you may be an exception (although I don’t agree with your rationale for opposing AA). But let’s be honest about one thing, vouchers will never be sufficient to address the educational inequities in this society. So a few students are allowed to benefit from the program. What about the rest? Even if vouchers were available to everyone, the best school is the district certainly could not absorb all the students trying to get in. So the question becomes, how are the voucher students selected for admittance. Vouchers only offer a limited solution. There must be more critical thought given to improving the quality of education at all schools. The solution will and must be multifaceted. Unfortunately, I don’t see on a global level, which only hurts our future.

    Comment by Antonio — 01.03.07 @ 3:13 pm

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44. Do you really think that a white man who doesn’t want to keep another race down is an exception?

    Comment by RedBeard — 01.03.07 @ 5:41 pm

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45. Antonio;
    Given that urban areas spend by far the most per student upon education, exactly what is it that you demand of the rest of America to show that they are interested in the education of urban kids? Quite frankly, I grow weary of hearing this tired accusing rhetoric that bad schools are the result of racism. I often wonder if folks have any idea just how much we spend upon education in the US (well over $550 billion) and whether they have a clue about the extraordinary amounts of money from grants alone in the US.

    One group of Americans that is financially devastated is the group that has fled from the public schools and put their children in private schools to get an education. Americans have paid an enormous price for the failure of education!This notion that two thirds of the country is oblivious or uncaring is obscene.

    It is not a question of caring. Americans simply do NOT want to throw more money into the black hole of failure and I think that is eminently reasonable.

    Comment by jan — 01.03.07 @ 7:22 pm

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46. Failing schools are almost always the result of failed communities - that is, communities that don’t stress education.

    That’s been proven time and again all over the country.

    In the South Bronx, once top flight public schools in the 1950s became “ghetto schools” by the early 1970s (when the surrounding area became predominatly black) and were among the worst “failing schools” in the NYC public school system at that time.

    By the late 1980s as some of those areas became increasingly Asian (Korean & Vietnamese) those schools suddenly “turned around!”

    No more money was spent.

    Pretty much the same teaching staff.

    Same books, etc, etc.

    The difference was students from a community that cared about education.

    Education isn’t something magical bestowed on children. It’s something earned and worked for, often by an entire family…and the argument that the blacks in those areas didn’t have the time to work with their kids.

    Please!

    Who has less time than some of these Asian shopkeepers working 18 hours a day, six and seven days a week???

    When schools fail, 99 times out of 100, it’s the communities that have failed the kids, NOT the schools.

    That’s just a basic fact of life.

    Comment by JMK — 01.03.07 @ 7:44 pm

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