Note: This is a long post but keep reading. I have questions for you at the end.
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Yesterday afternoon I faced the possibility of going on a talking head cable news show today.
The topics were going to be such sensational, plucked-from-the-headlines stuff as the black guy found hanging in the carport of a “white female friend” in Mississippi (Was it suicide because the girl dumped him, or a racially-motivated lynching, or retaliation from a rival for the girl’s affections?) and a teenaged lesbian who wants to start a homosexual club in her school and take her girlfriend to the prom. The school said no to both. As expected, she’s suing.
Because of Bush’s Iraq speech last night, the cable news show decided to bump the segment in favor of Iraq talk, but I was so intrigued by the “gay club” topic, I wanted to generate a discussion about it here.
As some homosexuals are wont to do, they confuse disapproval of their lifestyle with hostility or intolerance. I don’t hate homosexuals and wouldn’t dream of harassing them; I just don’t like how they’ve chosen to live their lives. But that’s their business and their right. I don’t impose my views on them, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to keep my mouth shut while they push for special rights and impose their views on me.
Yasmin Gonzalez, a student at a government school in a socially conservative Florida town, wanted to use school grounds to organize a club to promote “dialogue and tolerance” about homosexuality. (Source)
This case is unusual in that the majority of people in the town seem to be Christians or at the very least, opposed to the homosexual lifestyle on moral grounds. According to the article, the school engaged in a bit of deception to keep Gonzalez from forming the club: We don’t allow clubs…wait a minute…yes we do, but there are too many clubs — that sort of thing.
My answer to the cable show host’s questions would have been along these lines: If the school allows other groups to meet on campus after hours, I can see no rational reason for denying the Gay-Straight Alliance. While I’m opposed to the lifestyle, I don’t think a government school can prohibit homosexual clubs for the same reasons I don’t think it should prohibit faith-based clubs.
(In “Incompatible Kerry’s Immaculate Deception,” I briefly discuss the confusion over so-called separation of church and state.)
I strongly advocate Christian parents taking their children out of government schools and homeschooling or sending them to private Christian schools.
I feel for Christians who can’t afford private schools and for whatever reason aren’t equipped to homeschool. I don’t believe in fighting the government for piecemeal concessions like “prayer in schools.” Children don’t need permission to pray. It is a private matter that can be done without formalities and protests, which in my view cheapen and obscure the whole purpose of prayer.
At the same time, I do believe taxpaying parents have a right to complain and seek change in government schools. I just don’t think it’s worth the effort for Christians to get themselves worked up over problems in a corrupted, Democratic party-controlled (teachers unions), monopolized, government propaganda machine like the public school system.
Stephen L. Carter, writing in Christianity Today, has a different view. In “Give Parents a Say,” he seems to be urging Christian parents not to give up on government schools, suggesting that these schools should return to their local roots in serving communities and families, Christian and non-Christian alike. An excerpt:
These schools served local communities and the families of which those communities were composed. To speak of “public values” in those days would have been to speak nonsense. The community chose what to teach, and that was that. Of course, many of the choices were terrible, and some were actually oppressive. Yet the model of schools serving not “the public” but families continues to have a certain resonance.
Perhaps we should not reject this model out of hand. Perhaps, instead of viewing public schools entirely as functions of the larger government, we should see them as joint ventures between the government (and its public values) and the local families it serves (and their local values). Rather than alienating parents unnecessarily, perhaps we can find sensible compromises between the all-or-nothing strict separationism of the federal courts and religious domination.
As someone who’s grown up under “Big Government,” the idea of limited government being a foreign concept, I can’t even comprehend the idea of taxpayer-supported schools serving “local communities and the families of which those communities were composed,” and I grew up in a small southern town!
The idea of “localism” is great in theory, but with teachers unions, an arm of the Democratic party, fighting to maintain domination over government schools, the battle would be bloody and in my view, not worth it. Christians, just take your kids out of government schools and educate them the way they should be.
Questions:
1. In the case of Yasmin Gonzalez, who wants to form a homosexual club and take her girlfriend to the prom, what is your opinion, whether Christian or not?
2. How should Christian parents react if they’re offended by certain curricula or policies in government schools?
3. How relevant are the biblical concepts “render unto Caesar” and “submitting to the authorities” when it comes to Christian parents and children and government schools?
Clarification (11:29 a.m.): Some readers might be misunderstanding #3. I am not implying that Christian parents are biblically required to “render” their children to the government. What’s in view is Christians forking over taxes to pay for government schools. I believe parents who send kids to non-government schools should be exempt from supporting them. I’ll be clearer next time…
Related post and articles:
- I’m A Libertarian On Education
- Liberals and Their Advice
- “Pro-Choice” For D.C.’s Black Students (original title)
- Review of Liberty & Learning: Milton Friedman’s Voucher Idea At Fifty
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Schooling in this country should be completely privatized. If you want to send your kid to a madrassah, a Christian school, or a Jewish school, go ahead, be my guest, as long as my taxpayer dollars aren’t being used to subsidize your institution. Although school privitization would probably lead us into a self segregated society, I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing, since forced multiculturalism hasn’t really made us that much stronger. I do see why people might thing self segregation is a bad thing in terms of reduced cohesiveness, decreased patriotism, and more polarization, but its not like forced multiculturalism has been able to avert those problems anyways.
As far as a separation of church and state, I do believe it should be upheld in the public sphere (schooling would no longer be a public process). I think our founders understood the history of humanity, in that religions come and go, and that many claim to be messiahs, whether they rightfully are or are not. Christianity is a relatively young religion, and in many parts of the world, it replaced religions and beliefs that had been in existence for thousands of years. Then came Islam, and Islam now rivals Christianity in numbers of adherents. Many who were Christians left their young religion and followed the path of Mohammed. Whose to say Islam wont overtake Christianity in this country, as it is doing in many parts of the world? Additionally, for those that don’t believe in a separation of church and state, what if Majority Muslims began changing our laws and enforcing Sharia laws. What if some individual comes along and claims to be a messiah, and regardless of his/her authenticity, this “messiah” gets a following that dwarfs the number of Christians in this country, and then begins to enfroce their beliefs on the remaining minority Christians.
Separation of Church and State was designed to protect all religions, and it would be wise for the Majority to deal with the perceived limitations, because History has shown has that the composition of the majority changes pretty quickly, and giving too much power to any majority is not a good idea.
How many of you really think 2000 years from now, the worlds major religions will be practiced in substantially the same way as they are now? Will any religion survive?
1. If they allow all clubs, including the Boy Scouts and Christian clubs, then it should be allowed.
2. Complain to the Principal and write letters to the school board. Elected officials do not like to get mail!
3. Jesus was talking about obeying the law. Complain and pull your kids from school = ok. Arson and murder = BAD!
Reason #256 why we homeschool…
1. While I don’t support homosexuality per se (I think it is wrong and unnatural), I don’t think it is the school’s place to deny her taking whoever she wants to prom as her date-male or female. As far as the club, unless you are going to have just strictly academic clubs (math, science, honor society/beta club, etc), really how can they refuse a homosexual club. Granted, I think they should have a heterosexual club too and see if anyone calls it discriminatory.
2. I think Christian parents should “grow a set” and remind the teachers unions who really pays their salaries. Of course I am anti-union, so I have a bit of bias in that respect. But parents have all the rights to fight the curricula they disagree with because they pay the taxes that fund the schools in the first place.
3. In the US, our government was created to serve the people rather than “Caesar” so I don’t see much of the relevance. On the other hand, our government is becoming more and more self-serving to the self-important career politicians than serving the common man.
Children don’t need permission to pray. It is a private matter that can be done without formalities and protests, which in my view cheapen and obscure the whole purpose of prayer.
Thank you for this, La Shawn. I feel like so many people ignore this fact in their claims that prayer is “outlawed” in public schools or something. If you want to pray, you can pray! I did it all the time.
The questions:
1) I think that the school should have allowed her to open the club, and to take her girlfriend to the prom. For the reasons you stated, I don’t think that schools should ban a club unless it is promoting or engaging in illegal activity.
2) I think that the way that Christian parents should react depends on what is offending them. If it is honestly a case of Christians being mistreated — like, say, if a student was suspended for quietly praying before lunch, or something — then I would expect the parents to make their objections known and move from there. If it is an offense that comes with living in such a diverse society, though — like a gay club — I think Christian parents should use the opportunity to engage their children in conversation about why the club is being formed and why the parents themselves don’t agree with it. With my mom, everything was an opportunity to help me approach the world — a violent movie, a story on the news, whatever. I believe that Christian parents should use things they find offensive as opportunities; their children will be exposed to these things eventually in our society, so it is best that they are exposed to them with their parents by their side, explaining how they feel every step of the way.
3. I think that the concepts are relevant even for parents who opt not to use government schools or don’t like what they stand for. Namely, I think that being in this country — or any country — means that you surrender your right to be 100% happy with the way your taxes are spent, in exchange for the right to live here and be protected by the US army. Paying taxes that fund schools gives you the right to make your opinion known with regard to how those schools operate, but being unhappy with how those schools operate does not give you the right to withhold payment of your taxes.
1. I don’t see how a school can regulate if the girl takes another girl as a date, especially given the number of people who go to these functions as groups or together, but without a date. I see no difference. As a Christian, the way I see it God condemns sin — period. But people are still people and tolerating this kind of ridiculous discrimination only opens the door later for it to be directed (even moreso) on other.
2. Christians and offensive public school curriculum. Well, let me first say that we have been obnoxiously upfront with the administrators and school board on several issues. We pay taxes, ergo we fund them and have a right to be heard and taken seriously. Some things are just plain offensive — like the continual holiday concerts where every religion is recognized except Christianity, which is inevitably replaced with songs about shopping, Santa, or bunnies. This year students were finally able to sing Silent Night instead of “Joy to the World — My Shopping’s Done”. As for curriculum, education begins first in the home. Christian parents must be diligent about paying attention to what their children are learning. I don’t think it’s right to shelter them from the information, but rather to provide family and Biblical perspective on those items. In some instances we have had to exert our right to withdraw them from certain activities — the most appalling of which was the performance of a particular pagan ritual as part of the fall curriculum. Teach it if you feel you must, and I will be there to guide my child as I should — but I draw the line at actual practice, just as others have drawn the line against public prayer in school. Equality works both ways.
3. Render unto Caesar and submit to authorities — this can get sticky. We teach our children to be respectful of those in positions of authority. It does not, however, mean one must compromise their beliefs, morality, or integrity to do so. Follow the rules, unless they’re asking you to do something that is contradictory to your faith (the ritual mentioned above is the best example we’ve had so far).
Overall, we have been fortunate in that our dealings with our public school system and its hierarchy have been relatively benign and cooperative. As a counselor in training, I have bigger problems with the ridiculous nature of what they consider to be discipline that ends up, in the end, being counterproductive. But that’s another topic entirely.
Abolish the DEPT OF EDUCATION and return to home or private education
I don’t have any interest in squeezing concessions from the public school system. We’re going to home educate. Carter has a good point. But I fear that it is too large a goal, compared to the satisfaction of being personally responsible and accountable for my children’s education.
1. In the case of Yasmin Gonzalez, who wants to form a homosexual club and take her girlfriend to the prom, what is your opinion, whether Christian or not?
I agree with LaShawn’s reasoning regarding the club. The Prom is different – it’s a cultural function, not a civil rights demonstration. Fred Phelps et al don’t have the right to harass bereaved families – that’s an uncivil wrong. Gays and lesbians don’t have the right to impose their anti-normal culture on the rest of us. And yes, homosexuality is anti-normal, whether you’re an atheist natural selectionist or a Christian creationist.
2. How should Christian parents react if they’re offended by certain curricula or policies in government schools?
Government schools are not the hill I want my children to die on. This question presupposes the legitimacy of mandatory attendance (not “educationâ€) laws and mandatory taxpayer funding. Let’s focus on changing these wrongheaded policies. In the mean time, homeschool.
3. How relevant are the biblical concepts “render unto Caesar†and “submitting to the authorities†when it comes to Christian parents and children and government schools?
Homeschooling is legal in all 50 United States, and “we the people†have already established that government derives its just power from the consent of the governed. Use every legal means within your power to protect and extend liberty. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King respectfully disobeyed evil laws and submitted to the consequences, and made our great nation even greater.
What great questions, I’ll try and be brief yet clear on why, I see things the way I do. I have homeschooled my children for 12 years and that certainly has influenced my opinions.
#1 I would not permit a same sex couple to come to the dance. The dance is for all students. If someone who is gay wants to come fine. But single or with a group. Many girls come in groups, as do many guys. Homosexuality is not a race issue, although many have tried to turn it into that. Homosexuality is a behavior, and one that is to be kept in check on school grounds. Any sexual activities on school campus should not be permitted.
#2 As to the curricula coming into schools I am a great motivator in helping parents see clearly the need to remove their children from public schools. The public schools no longer are aimed at educating children. As one can see through the choices made in curricula, also in what activities the NEA promotes that children are not priority. By the way many, churches have private schools, to combat public schools impact. The homeschool numbers are incredible! The cost isn’t outrageous to educate your children. Especially when you weigh the odds!
#3 When the Bible speaks of rendering unto Caesar, it is speaking of taxes. As a homeschool parent I have paid taxes that support public school, no problem. But my children are not Caesar’s! The government has my submission, through obeying the laws, paying taxes,even through voting. But the Bible also tells me as a Christian to be separate… 2 Corinthians 6:11-18. So although I am proud to be an American, my responsibility to my family is to raise them the way God wants. It is not easy to be separate, and sometimes we conform, but our lives have been paid for and we accept that our debts were paid.
I find it absolutely ridiculous that we have any clubs at school based on a person’s sexual preference. I think a heterosexual club would be equally as stupid as a homosexual club. I believe every person should be treated with dignity and respect as long as they have earned it. I just do not want to know or care what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, as long as children are not involved. I get equally annoyed by heterosexual couples making out in public as I do homosexual ones. Please can we put sex back in the bedroom where it belongs. So I would say NO to ANY club that was based on sex!!! NO! NO! NO!
As for the prom, let her bring her girlfriend if she wants. Treat every person with kindness. Hate the sin, but love the sinners just as the bible preaches.
In Ms. Gonzalez’s case, I agree with you and others who have said that the school really has no grounds to deny the club or her prom date. The club actually promotes tolerance (and let’s remember that without disagreement, there can be no tolerance). In this particular case, I also think Christian parents should use this as an opportunity to teach their kids about how to respond to those with whom they disagree. Speaking from personal experience here, I know that many high-school Christians in small, Southern towns could use a little instruction in that area.
I wasn’t “out” in high school, but I knew a boy who was. Like me, he was a virgin (so technically he hadn’t done anything wrong), yet he was open about his feelings and, not being a Christian, did not have the same conflict about his orientation that I did. He was definitely the “I’m here, I’m queer, get used to it” type, and he was also badly harassed by many supposed Christian students (vicious gossip from the girls, physical harassment from the guys). After seeing the way they treated him, I could sympathize with his aversion to Christianity. After all, if that was how he thought Christians treated others, I can see why he wouldn’t want to be part of the religion. And my biggest regret is that my fear of the same harassment kept me from witnessing to him.
As I’ve grown and met many different kinds of Christians, it has expanded my faith. As my faith has grown and my relationship to God has deepened, I have felt the pull to follow His Word, and therefore have felt the call to chastity that I am currently trying to live out. When it comes to homosexual or sexually confused teens, it is the faith in Christ that they need first, and they need to be welcomed into the Church without there being any outright expectation that they must change their orientation or their lifestyle in order to be Christian. In my opinion (which is, of course, biased by my experience), those desires will grow out of their faith as it deepens. It might take years in some cases, but Christians need to recognize that our individual relationships with God can take on a variety of forms and He works in a fashion that is appropriate for Him.
I’ve never been a fan of Christians taking their kids out of government schools. I think moral and spiritual education starts at home, and I think Christians can do a lot of good in public schools (then again, remember that I lived in an area where most everyone was a Christian anyway). I think vehement opposition should be lessened — I would not approve of any Christians threatening to pull their kids out of the school should the school get a GSA, for example — yet Christians still have the right to say what they believe, and that is that homosexual sex is contrary to the word of Christ. But as I heard somewhere, telling someone who is not in Christ what is contrary to Christ is like telling a blind man what is good or bad art. Really, he won’t know where you’re coming from!
Wow, that I was a ramble. I hope my point came across (and I hope it wasn’t too far removed from the type of response you were looking for). In either case, I’m running on too little sleep and too much caffeine right now.
1. The club should be allowed. The sponsoring teacher needs to keep it non-confrontational. I think its unfortunate that identity has to be the reason for the club rather than an interest like chess or drama. After all, schools don’t have “nerd” clubs or “prima-donna” clubs. Kids should be allowed to go to the Prom with anybody they please. (I was a heterosexual shy non-conformist rebel wallflower in high school, and didn’t go to the Prom.)
2. Express your concerns to the Teacher, Principal, School Board and Superintendent.
3. I’m not a biblical scholar, but I think that it means that you can’t expect the government of a secular state to provide a Christian education, and you can’t withhold your property taxes because the math teacher is gay. (But the math teacher needs to teach math, not raise consciousness about diversity issues). Public Schools should help kids learn to get along with other people, not pander to identity politics.
1. Proms aren’t a necessity. Since a “Prom” holds absolutely no educational value, and isn’t part of the educational curriculum……she’s not being discriminated against, educationally. Lots of kids don’t go to their Proms, for whatever reason.
2. You pick your battles. There are more urgent issues, like the recent school shootings (Jan. 10) at Grant High in Van Nuys. It’d be nice to know your kid wasn’t going to be shot at. Then worry about all the other things.
3. Yes, I believe in submitting to “Authorities”…when those Authorities are genuine. I don’t consider Unions to be “Authorities” on anything, or have dominion over school kids.
1. In the case of Yasmin Gonzalez, who wants to form a homosexual club and take her girlfriend to the prom, what is your opinion, whether Christian or not?
To frame my answer, I will first say that I am a Christian. Within the confines of your question, I agree with you, La Shawn, that if the school allows after school clubs and other secular activities (and we know that it does), then it is required to allow this young woman, or any other student for that matter, to form a club.
2. How should Christian parents react if they’re offended by certain curricula or policies in government schools?
Becoming a Christian does not currently mean giving up your right in this society to participate in the collective. In other words, my opinion counts just as much as anyone else’s, at least until we get further in the pretribulation period. Since I have a right to be heard, I have a moral obligation to speak the truth in love. If a school board promotes an agenda that advances the secular-humanist agenda, the gay agenda, or some other anti-Christian agenda, I will speak out against it to the best of my ability. I think getting mad and acting irresponsibly is always wrong, but calmly and sincerely promoting my viewpoint may save some people.
3. How relevant are the biblical concepts “render unto Caesar†and “submitting to the authorities†when it comes to Christian parents and children and government schools?
Not relevant at all. In America, we (the voters) are the authorities. We forget that at times, but we are supposed to be in charge. It is not a right to participate, it is a duty. This applies to everyone, not just Christians either, by the way.
The separation of church and state, so often spoken of by the secular-humanists, was not a separation, per se, to protect the government from the church, but was rather set up to protect the church from the government and to prevent the setting up of a State sponsored religion. It was understood by the founders quite clearly that there is a God, that He reigns forever and that there are two organizations set in place by God for us here on earth. The government and the church. The government of the U.S. was set up under the authority of God also. For evidence of that, one might read the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence for references to God, our Creator.
1. In the case of Yasmin Gonzalez, who wants to form a homosexual club and take her girlfriend to the prom, what is your opinion, whether Christian or not?
You may not like my answer but here it goes. She should not be allowed to form a club or appear at the dance with a female date. To do so only encourages further deviance. Homosexuality IS a deviant behavior, therefore forming a club that promotes deviant behavior is not only dangerous but illogical.
2. How should Christian parents react if they’re offended by certain curricula or policies in government schools?
They should speak out and address the issues with the school authorities. If such policies do not change and they see it as being detrimental to the well being of their children, then they should pull their children out ASAP.
3. How relevant are the biblical concepts “render unto Caesar†and “submitting to the authorities†when it comes to Christian parents and children and government schools?
As far as taxation is concerned, I agree, parents should not be forced to pay taxes for something that they do not use, yet, we do still have to pay taxes (rendering unto Ceasar), it is the law of the land and in that we should be obedient as long as it doesn’t contradict God’s law. I would agree that there should be some type of deduction for families that homeschool or send their kids to private schools, it is fair.
1. A student should be able to attend the prom with whomever they choose. However, inappropriate behavior (kissing, etc.) should be banned completely from the prom (for everyone). Whether the prom itself is a grand idea is another issue.
As for the club, I am inclined to say “no way.” If my children attended school (which they don’t) I would be indignant if clubs were formed that promoted immorality. I don’t think it’s wrong for administrators to take a stand and say that some behavior is not fit for public discussion or consumption. There’s nothing wrong with students grouping according to innocent interests: learning chess, etc., but sodomy, etc. are not innocent interests. I would be very frustrated if the school officially promoted something that undermined what I was trying to instill in my children (obedience to God’s way of conducting our sexuality among them).
The dignity and value of each individual is based upon the image of God that is present in each of us. Schools should and can promote that inherent dignity without allowing students to divide themselves into identity groups. For the same reason they wouldn’t allow Black Panther and White Supremecist groups on the school campus, they shouldn’t allow Gay Pride, Teen Feminists, etc. Unnecessarily divisive, not helpful in promoting school spirit, and not essentially educational. Not the place for it. They can do that stuff on their own time, or after they graduate.
2. I agree with the article linked, that parents and local communities *should* be the driving force behind schools, as it worked in the 1700’s and in frontier areas in the 1800’s. Parents formed the school board, parents funded the building of schools, parents hired the teacher and even hosted the teacher under certain circumstances, etc.
I happen to believe there is no going back to that. That’s why I have opted to homeschool. Educational bureaucracy is now operating under a force of its own and I don’t think there is any stopping it, as you pointed out, LaShawn. Any efforts expended there are likely wasted efforts.
I’m not really trying to “send a message” by homeschooling. We do it for positive reasons more than negative (passing down our faith, freedom to choose our own method and curriculum, etc.). But the practical effect of several million families deciding to do so (if the numbers continue to grow at the same rate) will send a de facto message to the educational establishment…one they do not like and try their best to put down. The fight for educational freedom is clear cut there and best carried out on that front, I think.
3. Well, obviously tax evasion is a bad thing. But taxation can become oppressive very quickly. I think it’s essentially wrong to force people to fund something they find morally repugnant (like abortion). I think it’s wrong for the government to tax people right out of their property (especially the elderly). I also think it’s wrong to force people to pay for the consequences arising from the poor life choices of others. However, I don’t oppose some tax-funded social programs, like caring for the elderly or orphans. And I wouldn’t oppose helping fund the educational system…IF it were accountable to taxpayers. But it’s not.
Hello La Shawn,
Boy howdy, these are loaded questions, deserving of a much more in depth answer that I can possible give here. With that said, allow me to answer your question as best I can.
1. In the case of Yasmin Gonzalez, who wants to form a homosexual club and take her girlfriend to the prom, what is your opinion, whether Christian or not?
I am definitely liberal on this front. Personally, I don’t even see the controversy of a person wanting to create a club for the purpose of gathering like-minded people together. Groups of people who are shunned and isolated from broader society tend to want to stick together, from smokers to nerds to odd fashion enthusiasts. I don’t even see this question as relating to Christianity.
Many of your commentors here view homosexuality as a perversity– “unnatural” is the most common adjective, despite this particular behavior being activity is shared among all mammals. If this were a case concerning Christianity, then every woman I’ve known would be “unnatural” for speaking her mind and wearing men’s pants, and every man I’ve known would be “perverse” every time he picks up a football since it’s made of the skin of a pig (I don’t believe the Bible to be literal.). I think this girl should be allowed to take her girlfriend to the prom and create this club.
2. How should Christian parents react if they’re offended by certain curricula or policies in government schools?
If parents are offended by the curricula at school, I think they should be at pains to raise their own children rather than having their kids be raised by schools. Many commentors here suggest that parents should resort to homeschooling if they disagree with what schools teach their kids. This is laudable… if it can be done.
I don’t know many parents who are willing to raise their kids. In fact, I know of many parents who hire nannies and toss their kids into daycare centers BECAUSE they are not willing to raise their kids. It is nice that parents should have warm sentiments about their children (Natural affection for one’s own offspring is much to be desired– family values and all that.), but I don’t see much willingness on the part of women to hold off on their careers to actually raise a child, which, in all honesty, is a dreary repetitious job of transmitting culture and sensibility to an otherwise unregulated creature. I see some now and again when I’m out and about, and when I do I think it’s wonderful and courageous; especially in light of how society separate people into the “winners” and the “losers” categories. I mean, if the woman’s career is on hold, my gosh, they just might be listed as one of the “losers”!
The only thing I can suggest to parents is to really attend and ask after the kids every night when they come home from school. A simple, “What did you learn in school today?” Then you can go about the process of correcting the teacher’s ideological slant, or convene with the teachers and principals, etc.
Parents really have to be aware that they are only one of myriads of factors influencing their child’s life. They have iPods, TV, movies, school, their peers, teachers, the Internet, et all. If parents are not making the absolute commitment to attend their kids, they will have to resign themselves to play a small, indecisive role in the life of their child. That’s just the way things are, not what we would like it to be.
3. How relevant are the biblical concepts “render unto Caesar†and “submitting to the authorities†when it comes to Christian parents and children and government schools?
I don’t see the stipulation in the Bible that says “render onto Caesar what is Caesar’s” only if you agree with him. It is the government’s duty to levy taxes and spend those taxes at their discretion. That is their perogative as a governing body. And as our government is constituted as a government “for the people and by the people” we are responsible for what our elected officials enact in our name.
It is a given that not all groups and categories would agree with what our government ultimately decides to do. How can they possibly appease and satify all the factions in our country, who even as we speak are becoming more and more fragmented in opinion?
The most succint answer to this question I can think of is in the full scripture:
“17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?â€
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money.â€
So they brought Him a denarius.
20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?â€
21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.â€
And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.†22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.”
It’s my opinion that it is up to us to raise our own children. As to “submitting to authorities”, I don’t think that means we should give the government a blank check to decide our lives, only that we be law abiding citizens.
For the lawlessness we see in our society, Abraham Lincoln, America’s Lawgiver, said that we should follow the laws of the nation in every way, as a check that the “lawless in spirit” will not be “lawless in deed”. He also said that when we disagree with those laws, we should still follow them, and should redress those grievances in its proper place and proper time.
So, yes, this scripture is very relevant, not just for this issue, but for so many issues concerning the times we live in. From homosexual clubs to our war in Iraq.
This place is not our home, we’re just pilgrims passing through. But I also note the scripture that says in the face of all the forms of the “Prosperity Doctrines” that to makes yourself a friend of this world is make yourself an enemy of God.
So, we’re just passing through is all…
1. It depends really. I don’t see the connection between forming the club and going to the prom. It seems to me that she is trying to use the prom to make a political statement. Like the Gay and Lesbian parents that took their kids to the White House Easter Egg thing. What they did was a political statement, and that is not the place for it.
2. Do the same thing Non-Christians do, yell to high heaven. Never just sit by and let yourself be walked on. However, if it is just a matter of two girls at the prom, I think this should be a non-issue. My partner and I went to his High School reunion at a small private Catholic school. Those that clearly disapproved simply ignored us.
3. One word, vouchers.
I commented early and then saw Lashawn’s clarification…
Yes I understood exactly what you meant about Caesar, I was explaining in #3 that currently in America taxes fund public schools. I have no problem paying things that the law requires. I use my vote to try to change things, but still my taxes have been earmarked for education(among other things). While I pay taxes, I still have opted out of the public schools. That is how my voice can be heard. Through reduction in numbers by parents pulling their children out will be one successful way to overturn a 320 Billion Dollar empire.(http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/2004-03-11-waltons_x.htm)
As a homeschooler I often hear the story about a family that homeschools their children and really do nothing. I don’t know who this family is, but I have heard the negativity for 12 years. To overcome the stigma, I don’t fight/ go against public schools. I just diligently teach my children, no extra funding, no perks, just the fundamentals. When our governor came to town, I took the kids. I wanted them to understand government. We were the only group with children. My children sat, listened, and even asked a few questions.
Public schools are against homeschooling because we have results that are proving it is not about the funding. If I was given the money that public schools use to fund one child, in one year, I could support my homeschool from K-12.
Again it comes down to the stigma carried with homeschoolers, which sets my tone.
Until a solution to combat the public schools and the underfunded teachers sob story dissipates this is our option.
“I don’t impose my views on them, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to keep my mouth shut while they push for special rights and impose their views on me.”
“2. How should Christian parents react if they’re offended by certain curricula or policies in government schools?”
I’d like to address the above two quotes from LaShawn. #1. I totally agree with the first statement. #2. It may shock some people to find that we do not always have a choice in these matters.
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/11/32005a.asp
God is Love and Light. Religious adherents of whatever faith that belief God does not have anything but Total Love of the Highest Order for all Souls may do well to reassess their entire belief system.
II am a first time commenter.
My three children graduated from a public school system in Texas with good educations. We chose the school system before we bought our home. Of course there were problems. Life comes with problems, but we dealt with them.
In elementary school, they were bused to a magnet school. Our eldest daughter came home complaining about a program. She told us the students were being told not to discuss the program with their parents but she felt the program was not consistent with what she was being taught at our church. (Lutheran Missouri Synod). It wasn’t necessary for me to know further details; the school agreed to withdraw my children from the program. They did a variety of activities in its stead, including library time, small group projects, etc. Interestingly, one of her friends, a Muslim girl, deliberately didn’t tell her parents because she knew they would remove her from the program. (It does help when you can trust your children to tell you what you need to know.)
In answer to your questions:
1. I have no problem with allowing the homosexual club if there is open access for other clubs and interests. The biggest difficulty might be getting appropriate sponsors since many schools require a faculty sponsor. I knew that several of our teachers were homosexual. I trusted my children with them more than with the individual about whose behavior we received a quiet warning from other parents.
2. I do not think it harms children to be exposed to ideas with which their parents disagree. I would far rather deal with a child having difficulty with a book or school project with which they are uncomfortable than to put limits on their thinking or make some ideas more fascinating by making them forbidden. Know your children; talk to them and their friends about what is happening in their schools and lives. Be involved at the school. Develop relationships with the teachers and other parents. Attend school board meetings. Be willing to help any of the young people around your own children when they need it. And, if blogs are popular among the young people of your community, keep track of what is being said on them. You will learn a lot about the students and teachers. Save your energy for the important problems you see, then speak up and find a solution.
3. I do disagree with your statement on funding education. I know many private schools and home schooling families do a marvelous job. But, as a society, we have a responsibility to see that all children within the community are educated, not just the ones in our homes or even in our churches. Just as all members of our community have a responsibility to fund projects such as highways, police or fire safety, we all must fund basic education.
Thank you,
Brenda
Brenda, I say this as a future public school educator. Based on the responses to your questions, I think you are exactly the type of parent that we in the public school system like to see. If every parent took the same time and energy to know what was going on in their childrens’ lives, then I doubt we’d be having many problems there today. Cheers to you!
My two cents on question 1 – disclaimer I went to Catholic school for 12 years but no longer practicing.
In the case of Yasmin Gonzalez, who wants to form a homosexual club and take her girlfriend to the prom, what is your opinion, whether Christian or not?
I think the school is within it’s right to decide what clubs are offered. What if she wanted a Communist club or Socialist Club? What about a head banger club? At some schools, you can’t have a republication club. The point is the schools make decisions all the time of what clubs to fund and not to fund. Really it is up to the community in this case since they are the one paying the taxes for the school.
The prom, while I agree shouldn’t be based on sexual preference, again has rules of what the school deemed acceptable. I can’t go to the prom in my underwear. I can’t come in with a blow horn. Yes, I understand that these are outrageous examples but think for a second that you can’t please everyone. We have rights but there is a limit to that right if it effects everyone else (Like yelling fire in a crowded building for no reason).
I’m not saying I approve of the school’s handling, all I’m saying is I don’t see intolerance or persecution here.
1a) She should be able to go to the prom with whoever. Back in my day it was not unheard of for singles to “go stag” or with a friend. It would be setting a precedent that you have to do is lie (and if it is kept quiet there is no proof otherwise) in order to go to the prom with someone not a boyfriend/girlfriend of the opposite gender.
Mandating lying as an absolute (acceptable) excuse is never good.
1b) the homosexual club should not be allowed.
Would they allow for a “Mile High” Club? A Kama Sutra Club?
Or even (with parental consent) a smoker’s club, to try out different cigarettes, cigarillos, cigars, and pipes. I do not believe it would be allowed.
Teens in High School might be sexually active, but any sexual activity, sexual preference, or sexual orientation should be beyond any school support or (implied) approval.
Disclosure: I am an Orthodox Christian, formerly an Evangelical. My wife and I home-school.
1. At one time the courtly arts, male-female interactions, etiquette, were a part of one’s education, and I imagine school dances were once an opportunity to practice these things. Now, however, in a society where so many young people simply ‘hook up’ I don’t believe proms have a value or a proper place anymore in the public school system for anyone. Let private social and church organizations arrange the social events appropriate for their young people.
2. I believe that to some extent it is proper to keep up some fight regarding curricula in the public schools if only because it is a witness to clear thinking and truth where it most needs to be heard, but also for the sake of those who are left with no options other than the school system. Additionally, I wonder if there may be merit to keeping up the fight regarding public school curricula for the sake of keeping the teachers’ unions busy defending themselves rather than, for lack of the distraction, further eroding our rights to home- and private schooling.
3. “Render unto Caesar” has a corollary– “render unto God the things that are God’s.” The coin presented to Christ bore the image of Caesar. My children bear the image of the Holy Trinity, and are entrusted to me to raise in a godly manner, which, in my society, requires flouting the public school system. “Submitting to the authorities” is always limited to submission which is not contrary to love of God and neighbor. Early Christians prayed for the Roman empire prior to the spread of Christianity; nonetheless, they accepted martyrdom rather than light incense to Caesar or to the Roman pantheon.
Brian Jackson, MD
Highland, CA
1) If the club follows the same rules as other clubs, then it should be allowed. As for prom, some kids go with groups of friends, especially girls that don’t have dates. As long as they follow the behavior rules (no ‘making out’ on the dance floor), then they should get to attend together.
2) Most parents don’t realize it, but you can opt your child out of anything you don’t approve of and ask for an alternative. The school doesn’t like it, but they can’t stop you or retaliate against your child. I’ve opted my children out of DARE(To keep kids off of drugs, a program that brain-washes kids to treat the school and police as their parents instead of going to their parents with their problems), hearing and eye exams (my children’s health is none of their business, they have doctors), and books like “Lord of the Flies”. You can also ask to have your child moved to another classroom if you have an issue with a teacher. In the case of my daughter’s Bush Derangement Syndrome American Government teacher, I just taught her how to respond to him in class. She has no fear of speaking up and arguing. Since she didn’t really learn anything from him, I was her teacher and we discussed the reality of the topics he brought up in class.
3) The school you send your child to should get their money. My kid’s were in a charter school for most of elementary school (not necessarily the great thing it can be), and parents had to make up for the smaller amount of monetary support for the school. Charters here are public schools, but don’t get full funding. It could be a drain at times. If I’m paying 100% of my school taxes, my kid’s school should have received 100% of their funding.
I’ve always translated the “Render unto Caesar” line as “This temporary secular stuff, and its petty quibbles, are totally unimportant compared to what REALLY matters.” Am I wrong?
The high school I taught in for centuries had several “cutting edge” incidents to deal with. It is always important to remember that high school aged kids will take up causes with great fervor and simultaneously have no real belief system investment in the cause.
We had two girls who insisted on standing on a picnic table at lunch and deep kissing. The school had a rule against excessive displays of affection. I chose to “direct” the girls to abandon the picnic table for those who wanted to use it to eat lunch.
So, they put some chairs together to stand on to be seen by the crowd. Again, I directed them to stand on something firm and I suggested they take their display to the balcony on the outside stairs, but to be careful not to block passage.
We kept the jeering down and without much ado, the girls were frustrated by their lack of success and moved on to other pursuits.
If a school has a pressure for gay-straight clubs, I see no particular problem so long as the adult presence will bring adult supervision to the likely goofy ideas the kids are likely to cook up for notice.
Finally, I do not believe that the school is a place for adults who promote their sexuality or their personal ideas of sexuality. That covers straights, gays, transvestites or sex change individuals.
High schools are places where you work hard to stimulate young minds in useful pursuits. All high school students in the country have an active, natural, and consistent interest in their crotches. I rarely saw a gay male high school student who didn’t have a gang of girls as friends. And most of the lesbian girls seemed to have partnered off fairly quietly.
I never saw a the need for “dialog” on homosexuality. But if a gay group had come to me to form a club, I would have taken it through the same purposes, goals and means discussion that any group would go through. And, who knows? I might have ended up sponsoring them!
I am buying a product as a taxpayer that society deems necessary for all children to have access to so it is state and federally subsidized. Which is to say, there is a redistribution of wealth so that all children end up educated.
This is a noble mission for a stable future society. Each child’s family should be given a certain amount of money for their education. To ensure that the money is being spent wisely, the product (the child) gets tested four times throughout his or her education to make sure some basic knowledge skills are acquired.
People make good choices when they’re free to do it.
-As some homosexuals are wont to do, they confuse disapproval of their lifestyle with hostility or intolerance. I don’t hate homosexuals and wouldn’t dream of harassing them-
While it is a sad tendency of the lefty-gays to scream homophobia at simply the shadow of disapproval, it isn’t without some basis or purpose. The case of Jamie Nabozny, who was degraded throughout middle and high school purely for being homosexual, is an extreme but that it exists commonly in lesser forms is a sad reality.
http://www.oasismag.com/Issues/9602/oasis-profiles.html
1. As long as she abides by the same standards of propriety irrespective of her sex (no alcohol, no lewd/obscene dancing, obeying the dress code etc.), I don’t see why she shouldn’t be able to take her girlfriend.
2. If the administration is not being accomodating to the initial requests of parents, and other avenues of discourse and change aren’t accessible, then the options of charter schools, private schools, or homeschooling should be chosen.
3. In principle, it would be fair that they didn’t pay for the schools they weren’t using. But how feasible would it be for a behemoth government like ours to manage that task on a widespread level once factoring in singles, childless couples, parents with adult children, etc. While their own children may not benefit, parents who are employers benefit from an educated worker, as are parents who seek services from any given provider who graduated from public schools. So while they are relevant, implementing such an exemption would be problematic, and presumes that their own lives aren’t indirectly improved by the quality of SOMEONE’S public school education.
So relevant, yes. But an exemption makes quite a few presumptions that aren’t necessarily true, while also further complicating big government
Imagine if this subject was raised on Jan 11, 1957. People couldn’t fathom children practicing homosexuality back then, let alone lawyers and activists fighting for their rights to do so. It would be called what it is – wickedness. I’m not advocating that we go back to 1950’s society, just pointing out how perverted and tolerant to evil our society has become in 50 years. Things that are obviously morally wrong, like homo marriage, were soundly rejected as little as 15 years ago by our society. I guess I’m not answering the questions very well, maybe it’s just a lost cause trying to save an institution that has rejected God.
You have a point, JY, but at the same time I sometimes wonder how should a society react to homosexuality? Obviously the acts are morally wrong, but there are many people who experience those feelings, which are in my opinion morally neutral. Such people, like anyone, should be able to admit their feelings and should be able to receive the needed support from Christians everywhere. As Christians, we have a little balancing act on our hands, because which no homosexual kid should feel uncomfortable saying how he/she feels, but at the same time we as a society need to hold that homosexual sex is morally wrong. I mean, let’s face it, if you were gay and growing up in the church, would you admit your feelings to anyone?
1) I believe that no club based on sexual choice has a place in a public school. Once you open that door, to whom can you say “no”? It would, no matter the sexual orientation, become a hook-up club in short order.
2) Stop and pray, then think about the matter. Is it offensive on a subjective or objective level. If it’s subjective, then decide if it’s worth fighting or not. If it’s objectively offensive, pray and take the proper steps to address it in a civil way.
3) The law is the law until it causes the Christian to sin. If the law in an area says you must send your kids to public school then you better be doing an extremely good job at home of teaching them God’s will and way.
Jay,
Feelings about homosexuality are morally neutral? What about feelings about dishonoring parents, covetousness, or self pride? Are these considered morally neutral until acted out? Christ said that merely looking upon a woman with lust in your heart is considered adultery. I understand your point in keeping communication open with children, and I agree with you on that point, but we should be clear about how God views sin, which is definitely not morally neutral.
JY — Perhaps you misunderstood me. I too believe that lust is a sin (and one that 100% of the population — straight, gay, or whatever — can identify with), but attraction does not always equal lust, does it? I have no idea if you are married or not, but if you are, do you think you are cheating on your wife if you pass a beautiful woman on the street? From a Christian perspective, you would be if you fantasized about having sex with her, but simply realizing that someone is attractive is not, in my opinion, a sin.
And even if you did fantasize about this woman, most people would not consider that nearly as bad as if you actually had cheated on her. Even those homosexuals who are living celibately slip into lust every now and then. As humans, it’s part of our sinful nature. And aren’t we lucky that there’s One out there who’s looked past that sinful nature and saved us anyway?
Jay
I just don’t think that the bible tells us that God looks at sin with an “open mind.” I’m not concerned with how other people rationalize sin. I only know what God said about the wages of sin. Death.
I think Christians have resigned too much from public school.
For the most part, the public school situation has gotten so bad because Christian parents LET it get so bad, or refused to stand up for the right thing in the past.
I link todays school problems with the hypocrisy of the past. Imagine if more Christian White parents back in 40’s and 50’s demanded that all
kids of all colors have the same facilities and not be separated due to race ALONG with prayer in school, strict discipline and etc. We would not have much of the problems of today.
With the introduction of forced integration came other liberal attitudes of homosexual acceptance, poor behavior, acceptance of alternative lifestyles and the removal of anything with God in it. With these changes came the retreat of Christian influence.
Still, I’m for public school. My kids will go to public school.
More power to those who want to homeschool.
Christians, you believe in the compassion and love of the Supreme Being, God, the Creator and yet you also believe that such an entity would strike down upon those living in sin. Thus the danger and deception of religious doctrine which divides humanity instead of unites it.
The truth is not in some evolved piece of literature written by humans. The truth is within each of our souls, and that truth is that God is the Highest Form of Love and Light and it is our journey here on earth and elsewhere to rediscover and return to our Oneness with God.
JY, I know the wages of sin is death…if you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died for our sins, and do not try to keep His commandments, then yes, the Bible says that you will die becauese of your sins.
My only comment was that simply being attracted to a member of the same sex (just like being attracted to a woman who is not your wife) does not automatically mean that you can’t be a devoted Christian. We all have certain vices, and becoming a Christian doesn’t make them go away. It does take away their penalty, though. Amen?
Great topic LaShawn, thanks for asking!!!
1. As far as homosexual clubs go, I agree with your position that they should be allowed – if the school district is also allowing faith based groups.
2. Christian parents should stand up if they are offended by certain curricula and policies in the public schools, but this doesn’t mean that they also have to submit their children to these things. As a parent who has recently made a decision to homeschool a child who is not yet of school age, it came down to this…I can go and fight the system until I’m blue in the face – but that doesn’t change the fact that my child will be taught values and principles that my husband and I do not agree with and do not teach in the home. How can I expect my child to understand when mommy is refuting ideas that are taught by the teacher? One could argue that children need to learn to think for themselves, which they do… once they reach a certain age. In the primary years, they need to learn how to think – not what to think. I do voice my opinion in school matters and educate my friends about these issues when they come up. I will continue to do so once we are actively homeschooling.
3. As far as “render unto Caesar” and “submitting to authorities”…it is legal to homeschool and/or send a child to private school in this country, so I don’t think by doing so one is being subversive or not submitting to authority.
As far as Stephen L. Carter’s position goes, forgive me if I don’t want to risk the precious few years that I have to lay a Christian foundation in my child’s mind and heart duking it out with the local school board over the numerous issues and problems that I have with the government school system.
1. I couldn’t care less if they had such a club at our local high school. Kids who aren’t interested won’t go to meetings, so why bother protesting against something your kids probably would ignore anyway? It’s not as though they’re actively “recruiting” other kids — you’re either gay or you’re not.
2. Christian parents should react the same way any other parent would. Speak to the principal and other school administrators, and see if there are other parents who feel the same way. But do it in such a way that you don’t make a fool of yourself and your kid, and don’t infringe on everyone else’s rights — they pay taxes, too. (I’m going on the premise that we’re talking about public school, as in the article.)
3. I don’t really consider this one relevant. If you’re that concerned, maybe public school isn’t for you and/or your child.
Im with you, LaShawn. I have just finished sixteen years of homeschooling my two sons. It was not easy and we endured various forms of persecution for choosing to do it. (Most of this from fellow Christians, believe it or not!) I have no regrets. Both of my boys received college scholarships and are doing well. As difficult as homeschooling is, the peace of mind I gained was worth more than all of the lunches with friends and free mornings in the world!
In a free society, if we allow Christians to have special clubs, then we must allow the homosexuals. This is our mission field!
LaShawn:
We have spoken before about the positives in the public school. As you may remember, I teach at the local public high school. I respect you and your work greatly, and I understand and respect your view.
American public schools represent one the busiest intersections of our worldly culture and the message of the gospel. While Christian parents have the right to enroll their children in often inferior private schools, competent and highly challenging intellectual Christian educators are found in every public school. We love the children, enjoy the challenge, behave as professionals, and take our spiritual values with us into our classrooms each day.
When asked to speak about our noble profession, I have always presented my honest philosophy which is that my teaching is a ministry program and missionary work. Certainly, the great commission:”Go Ye Into All the World and Preach my Gospel to every Creature” can be fulfilled in our great American public institutions.
As a Christian Educator, I am “in the world, but no of the world.” I aspire to influence lives and show the world a face of Christian compassion.
Regardless of the choice made by parents, Christian Educators are needed in today’s public schools. There are many children and families to reach with our message of love and joy.
It really strikes a cord with me that all so called “Christians” are constantly talking about what is wrong with others. Constantly judging people about how they live. My God is a non-judgmental, loving, all forgiving and accepting God. Wanting to start a Gender reference club is not a bad thing and there are heterosexual clubs throughout the school. Every club is a heterosexual club. These clubs would not promote sexual activities. If that is what you think…come out of the gutter. If these students were not abused (physically or mentally) by these children of Christian parents, maybe they would not have to feel the need to be separate.
I grow up in that type of environment. Yes, I did not have the trendy wear (pick on him), my parents did not make a lot of money (pick on him), I wasn’t as athletic as the best player (pick on him). All of these things still happen to students everyday.
Also, be mindful that the same people that you disapprove of (Gays) are the same people that are still paying tax dollars to educate your children. Yes, let’s make sure they are without the civil liberties that are granted to Christian Heterosexuals. More and more this thinking is about trying to force other to conform to ways that we feel are unnatural.
We want to live in peace and not fear. We want to be held accountable to God only. We have God in our life as well as the next Christian.
Ask yourself if you are acting God like? Are you acting like the people that nailed Jesus to the cross? Is this a fight about your believes and fears or are you acting in a way that God would be proud of you? Think about that and pray before you respond with more hateful or fearful responses.
1. In the case of Yasmin Gonzalez, who wants to form a homosexual club and take her girlfriend to the prom, what is your opinion, whether Christian or not?
If prayer and Christian groups can be banned, why not ban gay/lesbian clubs as well? This is the real danger of having government in the education business – those in power too often play favorites, no matter how clever their rhetoric. Ban everything or ban nothing.
2. How should Christian parents react if they’re offended by certain curricula or policies in government schools?
Depends upon the circumstances. But Christian parents must be prepared to withdraw their children from public schools if the situation calls for it.
3. How relevant are the biblical concepts “render unto Caesar†and “submitting to the authorities†when it comes to Christian parents and children and government schools?
This is a tough one for Christians. Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar – and nothing else. Your child does not belong to Caesar, no matter what the educrats may say.
And in a democracy, at least, “submitting to authorities” does not mean Christians head for the back of the bus. Though this may come as a shock to “separation of church and state” cultists, Christians have political rights, too. And as long as government schools exist using taxpayer dollars coming from Christians as well as non-Christians, Christians have both the duty as well as the right to participate.
In any event, home-grown theocracy is not exactly a looming threat in America. If anything, the reverse is true – people of faith are seeing their rights being threatened by a fascistic irreligious minority in the name of “tolerance” and “diversity”.
1) Only if they allow straight clubs — equal opportunity
2) Christian parents should definitely get involved at least as far as the PTA level and attend any parent/staff meetings. Certainly no reason why they shouldn’t even run for the school boards. At least that gives them the wherewithal to temper and even counter the excesses of liberals.
3)On one hand, we ARE the authorities, as opposed to Caesar. However, if we have to take a stand against a governmental position, by all means do so and be ready to bear the consequences. In any case, disagreeing or speaking out against this government while our right to do so, it has nothing to do with paying taxes.
I might see something where, the govt says they will exact a particular tax and use it to fund something immoral. In that situation, I can see Christians revolting, ie an abortion clinic tax. However, because our government tends to hide the odious stuff in a general tax, to refuse to pay a tax puts the Christian on thin ice.
Anything we would face here in the US is going to be small potatoes compared to life-threatening stnads that Christians have to make in standing against the Chinese, N Koreans and other anti-Christ governments.
At the risk of sounding fatalistic, I see no fix whatsoever for “Big Education.” It doesn’t need a little fix here and there. It doesn’t need one more dime of taxpayer money. It needs to be totally dismantled and rebuilt at the community level with absolutely no ties to state or federal government. It’s not the government’s responsibility to indoctrinate, er, educate our children. It’s the parent’s responsibility.
If the feds and the teacher’s unions were out of the mix, communities, churches and private enterprise could compete on a local basis.
Competition would produce the best and most affordable schools, which is precisely the reason “Big Education” cannot allow vouchers and freedom of choice. They would be out of business faster than you can say “indoctrination.”
We opted to homeschool and both of our kids matriculated with honors at prestigious universities here in the Dallas area. Homeschool was a tremendous opportunity for them as well as for the primary instructor, my wife. She cherishes those school days and our kids received a vastly superior education than we could have ever expected from the government schools.
I agree with with the comments about the forcing prayer.
God gives us a choice, so this movement of evangeleicals forcing down Christianity to everyone is pointless.
Seriously, for any God-Fearing Christians, We all know God doesn’t need our help to fight his battles.
It amazes me the minute some “God” sign is taken off some court house, you see the gazillions bunch with the cardboards overreacting.
Or that lady, Phelps who goes at Funeral with her kids with cardboards saying that they deserved to die because America is evil. Something along those lines.
It’s not by Strenght, nor by might but by my spirit says the lord.
We christians should just pray and do our job to preach the goodnews, leave the dirty battle up to God.
As for prayer in school, again, prayer is a free choice.
It’s a conversation with God, we have formalized prayer, when it’s really talking to God, in the shower, doing dishes, in bed ect…
I don’t believe in homseschooling, simply because kids are going to grow up and live in the world that’s full of evilness.
Sheltering kids isn’t the answer. I went to a university that had about 200 students per class, a friend of mine went to a university with 20 students per class.
We argued and a report showed that students who go to larger scale universities are more equipped to face the real world.
As a former PK, I don’t think it’s always good for parents to force their religion to kids. Expecting your 8 year old kid to speak in tongue or read Isiah, this only turns him/her off. He’s not equipped.
I learned the hard way and it’s only now until I developped my own relationship with God around 17 years old that I actually started enjoying it, because I wasn’t going to church because my parents were making me do that.
All christians parents have to do is pray for their kids and just give it up to God.
We tend to take more burdens that we could handle. Let God worry about it.
God knows that as parents we want the best for our kids, so he’ll just work out the scenarios for them.
Sheltering kids, homeschooling or only protecting kids from unbelievers isn’t the answer.
Because the world is full of unbeliever. So, the child grows up in an area only full of christians. What happens when he steps out in the real world.
I’m not saying not to teach your kids about God. But do it in a fun way in a language kids understand, there’s a difference between sharing and forcing.
No wonder why so many christian kids rebel. As a parent, I wouldn’t want my kids to do something out of brainwashing but out of love.
That woman (shirley phelps I think), i’m sorry but when I see her 8 something year old kids iwth signs “God hate fags, kill fags” ect… I really think it’s brainwashing. I’m really sure if I asked them to explain why God doesn’t approve of homosexuality, they woulnd’t.
The minute someone can’t give you a reasoning or explanation as to what they believe, that’s brainwashing.
As a parent, I sure would hate my kids to believe in something for the sake of believing.
They get to miss the real fun and purpose of being a christian.
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