Wednesday, October 10: Welcome to LBC, StumbleUpon visitors! After reading this post, visit the home page and bookmark the blog for future reference.
———————————————————–
Update (1/16 @ 5:38 p.m.): What? I hope Tom Tancredo decides to run for president. The pro-enforcement, pro-life politician definitely would get my vote. I met him briefly at this event. He was swarmed by the media.
Related post: Lame Duck, Straw Men, and Cosmetics
————————————————————-
Evangelical Christians say the issue of illegal aliens in the United States often creates a conflict between their allegiance to the Gospels and their loyalty to the government. - from “Christian groups torn over illegals,” Washington Times
George Bush wants amnesty for illegal aliens, and now he’s got the Congress he needs to make it so. But I don’t want to talk about him. I want to discuss Christian “compassion,” illegal aliens, and illegal aliens who call themselves Christians.
Some people make the ludicrous argument that I can’t speak out against illegal “immigration” because I am a Christian. I expect such ignorance from unbelievers, but it’s 10 times as irritating when Christians say it. “Ministering to all people” and spreading the Gospel are not in conflict with my opposition to giving criminal aliens the gift of American citizenship.
Whenever some Christian starts ragging on me about how “un-Christian” my views on illegal aliens are, I ask them to tell me what criticism they’ve leveled against illegal aliens who profess Christ. In anticipation of the sounds of chirping crickets, I give them an out: Hypothetically, what would you say to the illegal alien who professes Christ?
Still… crickets.
Last year I attended a panel discussion called “Faith, Culture and Law in the Immigration Debate,” and one of the speakers was a Reverend Samuel Rodriguez, Jr., of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. I asked how he could advocate rewarding lawbreaking Christians, considering Christians’ duty to obey the law, and how “Christian” illegal aliens he knew justified the lawbreaking.
After quoting from the usual Bible passages about being kind to the alien in your land, Rodriguez added that the so-called Christian border jumpers he knows had a choice between starving and breaking the law (he didn’t say “breaking the law” but inserted a euphemism I can’t recall). He still didn’t answer my question about how Christian illegal aliens reconcile clear biblical teachings with their behavior. The lobby (where I’d cornered him) was chaotic, so I didn’t press the issue.
If I had pressed the issue, he would not have given me an answer that made sense. He, as an hispanic himself, put his shared ethnicity with Central American illegal aliens above what he knows is right as a so-called man of God. That’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it.
A couple of years ago, I got so fed up with e-mails from Christians, I wrote “Illegal Immigration From A Biblical Point of View,” which I hoped put things in perspective. It generated a lot of discussion, sometimes heated, but I think we made progress.
People who favor open borders and/or believe anyone speaking out against border jumpers is racist and/or un-Christian fail to understand our government’s role. The United States government, as created by the founders, has no power or rights or money of its own. Its derives its power from the people — you and me. We give it huge chunks of our yearly income so that it can carry out the functions we empowered it to perform. Part of that function is to protect its citizens, and to the extent that it isn’t detrimental to citizens, protect aliens in our midst. The problems caused by illegal “immigration” (crime, overburdened social support and legal systems, etc.) warrant some kind of action by our government to solve those problems and to repair the damage.
A government that not only fails to protect citizens from harm but actually seeks to bestow further benefits on those harming us is out of line, to put it mildly. As a custodian of sorts, with certain responsibilities toward citizens (as enumerated in the Constitution), it has effectively abrogated its whole purpose (hyperbole, you say?). The underlying principles mean nothing at all if our custodian can’t be trusted to do what it’s supposed to do.
Back to matters of faith. It is not the government’s job to show “Christian” compassion to illegal aliens, nor is it my commission as a Christian to excuse the behavior of illegal aliens simply because the Bible teaches that I must be kind to them. There is no conflict. Kindness entails more than just feeding people and providing comfort in times of need. It’s also about holding people accountable and encouraging them to make amends for their wrongdoing, to alleviate the suffering they’ve caused others. Why don’t I ever read a Christians-and-illegal-aliens news story that mentions the moral and legal obligations of Christ-following illegal aliens? What am I the only one being chastised?
Having “compassion for the alien” is Christ-like, but so is holding other so-called Christians accountable for their un-Christ-like behavior. Each of us will have to account for what we’ve done. The saved among us won’t have to suffer for it, as Christ has already suffered in our place. But God established governments for a purpose. Perhaps Reverend Rodriguez and my Christian detractors should remember these words (emphases added):
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. - (Romans 13: 1-4)
Related posts:
Her name is Donita. She came on a visa from Lithuania 5 years ago with her sister. She applied for citizenship via the lottery system. Her sister won and became a citizen. Donita didn’t so she overstayed her visa…illegally. She’s a caregiver for an elderly infirm woman in a Chicago suburb. She lives in with this old lady, caring for her as you or would I want our loved ones cared for. She makes $45,000/year cash. She is a devout Christian and loves this country. She has told me what it was like in Lithuania when that country was under Communist rule, where Christianity was all but outlawed and she appreciates our freedom of religion in this country more than most of us. The last time I saw her she was watching the funeral of President Ford with tears in her eyes proclaiming how wonderful America was. She has saved money to pay her “back taxes” or a fine in the hopes she will be granted amnesty. I know her through my sister who is the home healthcare nurse for this old lady and when I’m visiting my sister I go with her on her visits to this old lady.
Am I torn about the issue of illegal aliens. Yes, I am. I am totally against the amnesty program cooked up by the Senate and write my congressional representatives on a regular basis. I deplore the illegal invasion of this country..but then I think about Donita, how she loves the Lord, how she loves America, how she is doing a job that although pays very well, there are for sure not enough caregivers in this country and there definitely will be a need for more like her in the future with the babyboomers like me getting old and infirm.
So what am I as a Christian to think? I think the Christian group you referred to in the Times article may have a workable solution. In the case of Donita, she has a sister who is a U.S. citizen and she has lived in this country for years so she falls within the criteria advocated by this group. Granted there will be bad apples who will gain citizenship just because they have a relative to is a citizen, but at least that proposal is more akin to the sponsorship provisions that already exist in U.S. immigration law.
Comment by dianne — 01.16.07 @ 8:23 am
This Christian isn’t torn either. Amen La Shawn, Amen.
Comment by Renee — 01.16.07 @ 8:37 am
I’m sorry LaShawn. I normally agree with you on just about everything. I just can’t see being an illegal alien being an infringement upon Biblical teachings. It at best is some sort of minor sin, a kind of lying. As an immigrant to this country, who has obtained citizenship, I don’t have that much tolerance for what illegal immigration is, but it strikes me that of all things people can do that is perhaps the least harmful. While I think the wave of illegals should be stopped, because our laws demand that it be stopped. We can’t as a society start doing massive hunts for them in an effort to deport them all. Nor should we start turning our southern border into a mirror image of the East German border. While crime and drugs do flow through it it is unfair to lay at the doorstep of an illegal immigrant the sins of others.
If we look at the situation rationally ultimately all these illegal aliens will become Americans if they are not already. Let us not forget that that is what makes our country special. Any one can become American. Not, just a citizen, but American blood and all. Granted, they have to want to, and we have to let them.
Comment by Vlad — 01.16.07 @ 8:50 am
The sad but obvious observation La Shawn is that many “professed” christians, can’t tell you anything about the Christ they serve but the imagined one they have made up, or heard about on tv or a movie, or the good works one someone has told them about, etc. This “christ” normally condones sin of all types, whether it be law breaking illegal immigrants or homosexuals, or fornication. Have you noticed that the majority of churches that assist in illegals breaking the laws of a nation, also are lacking biblical backing for other stands they take? This doesn’t include the Rev you mention in the article, Rodriguez, who has put his “ethnicity” above the law of God, but his error is just as grievous nonetheless. This “christ” that they reference, matches the “christ” that Oprah talks about (a good moral teacher who believes “your truth is your truth, and so on). This “christ”, does not remotely resemble the one true Christ who has revealed Himself in all of scripture but then, since people don’t read, it’s not surprising that they are being led astray by an illusion and like their ears tickled by a “false gospel” that condones sin and lawlessness as man dictates it, and not as God has revealed it. Many “professed” christians have no clue what Romans 13 says, nor do they know or understand that it is in complete agreement with the rest of the word of God (OT and NT).
BTW, Philemon is also a good book in regards to “lawbreaking” and coming to Christ, and being held accountable.
Comment by Renee — 01.16.07 @ 9:04 am
Taking the quoted scripture literally, the founding fathers were sinful for fighting the British. Likewise Cuban dissidents. I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with Paul. To suggest that Castro, Hussein, Hitler, et al were ordained by God to rule their respective countries is wrong. I still believe that Paul wrote that simply as an attempt to placate the Roman government.
It’s ironic that he states there “For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong”, yet he himself was executed by those same rulers although he did no wrong.
Comment by Michael Chaney — 01.16.07 @ 9:20 am
ONE of the reasons we have an illegal alien problem is that our legal immigration system is in dire need of an overhaul also, as illustrated by the first comment above and by some personal knowledge of people trying to stay here legally. We need a two-pronged approach: stop the illegal flow and fix the legal channels.
In the meantime, I agree with LaShawn that Christians here illegally need to be held to account. That’s an issue here in my state among church planters trying to reach the Hispanic population. Many are migrant workers permanently settled here and have legal status, but many others are illegal. I know of churches that refuse to let those here illegally serve in leadership positions. I think that’s Biblically correct. I have a harder time deciding if the church should call and report them to INS. I would certainly encourage them to “do it right”…start the process of becoming a legal alien/citizen…whatever it takes, do it right, but report them? I don’t know.
Comment by MamaTod — 01.16.07 @ 9:27 am
I often suspect the people who make a big show of being “pro-illegal” are doing it less because they believe that’s what Christ would want and more because they want to be commended for their compassionate behavior. They’re not “doing unto the least” to exalt Christ; they’re doing it to exalt themselves.
IIRC, Christ came down pretty hard on the moneychangers in the temple who were defrauding the worshippers, taking advantage of their piousness. Would he not come down hard on those defrauding others by not paying appropriate taxes, by accepting services for which they are not entitled, by stealing the identities of others to obtain employment, by taking advantage of their piousness?
Comment by Radish — 01.16.07 @ 9:40 am
La Shawn:
Christians of all colors are fired up when Muslims make a claim that Sharia Law should surpass American Civil Law. They claim tha, in the USA, Civil Law takes precedence. Likewise for pharmacists refusing to dispense abortion pills - civil law takes precedence. The pharmacist has the option of working elsewhere. This is just the way it is in a Civilized society where the rule of law prevails - each individual person does NOT have the option of deciding which laws he chooses to obey.
Yet these same Christians make an exception to their own rule when it comes to illegals. They believe the Church law (or their individual interprstation) whould prevail over Civil Law.
The truth is that market forces are in favor of this immigration. As a civilized society, we will NOT deport all these illegals. But we as a society must take some of the blame for the total lack of the US Government in addressing this problem effectively.
I believe that a guest worker program - with or without a wall would drastically reduce illegal immigration. We have invited these people here, to work; most are employed.
But giving them legal status does not, by itself, include citizenship. This is a privilege, to be distributed for OUR benefit, not theirs.
Granting citizenship has been a disaster in places like UK, where large numbers of immigrants were admitted during economic booms, and given citizenship; when the economy contracted, the British were stuck with these low skilled, unemployed, and hostile people; you know the result.
We dont’ owe immigrants a permanent job or welfare check; thst’s the responsibility of their home country.
Jesus was correct “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, to God what is God’s.
Civil law is Caesars; following Civil Law on immigration.
Personal charity - giving food to illegals, is God’s, but it should not be forced on people by additional laws (welfare, food, education to illegals).
Comment by Frank Zavisca — 01.16.07 @ 10:02 am
I might as well chip in my two pesos. La Shawn, once again we agree exactly, and my stance is the same as yours: obey the government you live under, as it is established by God.
I also have friends from Lithuania and am not ignorant of how terrible life has been there. Circumstances do not abrogate law. We Christians are called to be a light in a darkened world; hard to do that when we are lawbreakers. I’m waiting to hear a Christian fence jumper claim that God told him to break the law.
As for the “What about our ancestors who broke away from England-they rebelled against the Crown”
-no they didn’t. They appealed to the King of all Creation Who heard them and set them free from the tyranny of King George. If our Lord God had intended for us to remain under British control, we would be living under the Union Jack to this day. His purposes, His Will, reigns.
He establishes the Governments, and if they do not protect, defend, care for their people, those Governments He tosses down. We see Castro holding sway in Cuba for 40 plus years, or Hussein in Iraq, and to us it seems like a long time-God does not forget, is not deaf to the cries of the oppressed. Sometimes He raises up a ‘coalition of the willing’, sometimes He inspires the people within a tyrant’s sway to rise up and depose him-God is working.
On our part, we are called to act honorably, not lie, cheat, or break any laws. Thanks again, La Shawn, for a great post.
Comment by Doug — 01.16.07 @ 10:34 am
Michael, it’s not ironic that Paul stated that rulers hold no terror for those who do right. How can a true believer be terrorized by such a temporal life in which Satan is the father and ruler of all sinners?
Paul was executed for following Christ, not for doing no wrong. Please recall that Paul often used his Roman citizenship to advantage in dealing with Rome. Instead, Rome was threatened by the notion that anyone might pledge allegiance to Christ instead of Caesar. It is only natural that Satan would try to use Rome to extinguish the Gospel to no avail.
As for the assertion that Paul was wrong, I’m curious as to the source of your epiphany.
From the very same book that La Shawn quotes, if you back up five chapters, you will see the context of which Paul speaks:
Of course God is in control and has ordained even tyrants. Where do you think we’d be if God hadn’t ordained King Herod, he who ordered that all boys under age 2 be killed?
Of course God ordained Pontius Pilate the fence-sitter, even tho Jesus did no wrong under Caesar’s law, allowed Jesus to be executed in order to prevent a Jewish riot.
It all worked for good so that the OT laws could be fulfilled, not destroyed (Matt 5:17) as most liberals are wont to believe when they go on to cite “blessed are the poor, blah, blah”, they forget the following verse 18 that until heaven & earth are destroyed, not one jot or tittle of the Law will be changed until all has been accomplished.
Nevermind that “blessed are the poor” has absolutely nothing to do with poverty and/or material world and everything to do with the spiritual state.
No less is Paul wrong, let alone ironic, in writing the following to the saints at Thessalonica:
As for the Founding Fathers, they were not sinful in fighting the British. They certainly weren’t rebelling willy-nilly, but agonized over the choices they would have to make. Have you even read the Declaration of Independence? They used the ‘law’ of King George against him and his Redcoats. And thanks to their foresight, we have the right to repeat that revolt if necessary.
All that said, our laws are what they are, if there are aspects that we consider unfair, then we need to change them. But I absolutely believe that to become an US Citizen, one must embrace the new world at the expense of their old world. And they certainly can’t presume equal weight, protection and benefit of that right of citizenship without going thru the proper procedures.
The onus is on the Christian illegals to do the right thing — to go back home — and on our government to secure the border.
Comment by Andy — 01.16.07 @ 10:45 am
I have to respectfully disagree with anyone and everyone who has fallen for the popular myth that Paul was merely placating Roman authority when he commanded Christ’s followers to submit to the authorities. In fact, the argument that Paul was executed (having done nothing wrong) by the Romans somehow “proves” that he was trying to placate them in fact proves the opposite. Paul would not stand for an insurrection, nor a revolution against the Romans, because regime change, for good or ill, was a trifling thing, and was a distraction from the Gospel.
There are no minor sins. If your eye offends, pluck it out. Every sin places us an equal distance from God: that is, infinitely far away.
People still get very confused over immigration and illegal immigration. At a governmental level, illegal immigration in the U.S. would be a minor problem if we didn’t neighbor a failed state.
It is ridiculous to compare any wall or security on our southern border to the Berlin wall. The Berlin wall was established by the East German government to keep its people in, not to stem a flood of West German refugees. You’ve got a contradictory analogy there.
There is a difference between an alien (i.e. any immigrant) and a criminal alien.
If you are a Christian, ask yourself this: if, while traveling to a foreign country, you decided to set up shop, work hard, and feign citizenship of that country in order to reap its benefits, would you be morally outraged to be discovered by authorities and expelled? Would you attempt to break back into that country?
Comment by Dan — 01.16.07 @ 10:49 am
I don’t understand how Christian principles can be used to rationalize wrong-doing.
Illegal immigration is NOT a “victimless crime.” It’s victims are those legal immigrants delayed or denied and future legal immigrants who will no doubt face far more severe restrictions as a result.
As far as the current wave of illegals here, that could best be remedied by (1) going after the employers with heavy fines for (A) hiring undocumented workers and (B) hiring workers off the books. Most come here for jobs, once the jobs disappear their magnet is gone and they’ll self-deport. Beyond that would be giving various in-state social agencies the equipment to verify IDs and then requiring those agencies to check on and report those found with fake IDs - again, no “free stuff,” no reason to be here and the vast majority of the llegals here would self-deport.
Comment by JMK — 01.16.07 @ 10:53 am
This post from LaShawn Barber…
Pingback by politicalpartypoop.com — 01.16.07 @ 11:03 am
I live in the south, and illegal immigration is not really supported by many churches down here. I see no contradiction between securing our borders and sending away illegals and scripture. We are not sending them back to die, they are not refugees. God is alive in Mexico, Guatemala, and even Lithuania. While people are here, we as Christians are to treat them in a kind, loving, truthful manner. That does not preclude enforcing our laws.
Trey
Comment by Trey — 01.16.07 @ 11:09 am
The problem with illegal immigration from latin America and Mexico is that there is no legal immigration possible from these countries.
One of my relatives is a retired border patrol agent. He is the one who told me about this problem.
By law the US can only accept a certain number of people from each country each year. What this means is that if you’re living in durkadurkastan and you want to come to the US but the quota for our nearly immigration from your country has been filled already, you have to apply to come here next year instead. Well if that quota has been filled as well, then you have to wait till the year after. It is also a first-come first serve system which means that it is possible for the line to be filled up for many years.
This all by itself is a hassle of course, but not an insurmountable obstacle. What makes it an impossible problem for people from Mexico is that people who come here illegally and then finagle their way into legal status are also applied to those quotas. If you’re living in Mexico today and you want to emigrate to the US legally you might as well forget about it. Not only is the line very long, but you’ll never reach the front of it due to people literally jumping ahead of you in line.
If I were living in Mexico I’d have no choice but to come here illegally. The system right now is such that those who want to obey the law are punished while those who are willing to break it are rewarded. And then we have the nerve to complain when people break the law.
The laws need to be changed so that peeople who obey the rules and work with the system are rewarded and those who go outside the system are punished. If we do that then we should see a lot less illegal immigration. Instead what we’ll see is a lot MORE legal immigration.
Comment by Lee — 01.16.07 @ 11:11 am
Time to end this illegal immigration build a border fence get ourselves out of the UN and drive the CFR out of america
Comment by BIRDZILLA — 01.16.07 @ 11:37 am
Christian-claiming liberots are in comfortable denial that God gave us guidelines for living in His Word.
They grasp the whole ‘He forgave us’ thing, and cast everything else aside.
God is not the author of chaos — but today, it seems the ACLU, many welfare groups, and a bevy of politicians are. The sadness here is that all these groups are important to our democracy, and they have all been polluted to the point that they seldom serve there intended purpose any more.
Christians who are Bible-led are called racist, bigoted, or even ‘afraid’ of lifestyles and behaviors that are contrary to the Way that we have been taught through the Word of God as it has been protected and passed down through history for our benefit.
To be clear: we are not AFRAID — much as Christ was not as He upturned the tables and threw the moneychangers out of the temple.
We are ANNOYED.
Not because it is our God-given mission to sadden the lives of others around us; but because we are so often chastised, rebuked, and quelled for teaching and being responsible for the teaching of our own families. The State no longer prefers to allow parents to hold those rights — they reside instead with the public school systems and the grand-children of those anti-establishment movers and shakers who in the 60’s primed the pump for change, but who couldn’t have foreseen that the pendulum they put into motion would swing so far to the opposite extreme.
We are nearly to the point at which politics and social climate will make any individuality illegal, and personal responsibility unnecessary. Everything is becoming regulated, from speech to thought to imagination.
Real Christianity threatens all of that. Ours is a religion of top-down government; where there is a hierarchy based on the perfection of the One at the top, and the expectation that despite our imperfections, we all aspire to follow the example left by our Elder Brother Jesus Christ. To say that child-murder, sodomy, tax evasion, blasphemy, and irresponsible fathering of unparented children are a ‘right’ simply skips right past the truth that these are situations that we understand lead to pain and suffering — and that there is a life available to us that is the Way to joy and peace of mind. That is the life that our Creator recommended from the beginning, and that His Son exemplified in His brief stay with us.
If the process to naturalization is too long and difficult, then the Christian thing to do is fix it. Likewise, if the threat to our livelihoods and very safety is at risk because we essentially have no practical southern border, it is our God-given responsibility to ensure the safety of those we shelter — whether they’ve been here for three generations or three months.
It is time for the Liberots to quit pretending that anonymity is one of the rights provided in our charter — it never was, and in fact, is seldom claimed by anyone who isn’t against the greater whole. Documentation of one’s identity has never been a crime in the past; Christians should not let the liberals convince us that knowing who Donita is and where she works is a crime against her civil rights. Yet here we are — no national ID card, no secure borders, and our financial system has had to default to identifying people by our Social Security numbers, which was never designed to be a private piece of data in the first place (this only because it is far too easy to hide and obscure one’s identity because there is no centralized management).
A Christian should not have to hide themselves from a State they are living as a part of, obeying civil laws as the Bible directs. We would not be stuck in this situation if the last two generations of social change had not been toward the eradication of personal freedoms and personal autonomy, leaving the underprivileged with no other choice but to hide.
Comment by Dan Oblak — 01.16.07 @ 12:05 pm
Michael, I got another prime example of tyrants ordained by God — look it up.
King Nebuchadnezzar who ruled all the land in between the River Nile and the Euphrates. King Jehoiakim of Judah served Babylon for 3 years before revolting. God ordered that Judah & Jehoiakim be attacked. In Nebu’s 19th year, he ransacked Jerusalem yet again and carried off the priests and killed them. Finally after long years of rule, God confronted him and told him his days were numbered.
Point being, as evil as Nebu was, he knew within his heart that it was only by the grace of God that he was given rule in order to serve as an instrument of punishment against the children of Israel.
Ditto for Castro, Chavez, Mugabe and all the other tinpots, they merely serve God’s ultimate purposes whether they chose to admit Him or not.
I rather suspect your biggest stumbling block is choosing not to accept the Bible as God’s Word and cherry-picking what parts you like. In that sense, your faith hasn’t a leg to stand on, let alone solid rock. All or nothing, it’s that simple.
Comment by Andy — 01.16.07 @ 12:36 pm
LaShawn:
Let me start off by saying that I maintain the same position as you with respect to illegal aliens. I too am a Christian, conservative person of color. Nonetheless, the following leaves me perplexed:
I asked how he could advocate rewarding lawbreaking Christians, considering Christians’ duty to obey the law, and how “Christian†illegal aliens he knew justified the lawbreaking.
What leaves me perplexed is that Dr. Martin Luther King fought against what he termed “unjust laws” with respect to segregation. I assume that Dr. King was a Christian, and that the foundation of his civil disobedience was rooted in biblical principles. Perhaps some may consider this an apples and organges arguement as we are referring to citizens versus non-citizens. Your feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Warmest regards,
Joe
Comment by Joseph Magee — 01.16.07 @ 12:42 pm
I think a good way for Christian’s to view this issue is to turn it around. Is it okay for an American Christian to illegally enter and stay in another country, take a job that is ‘under the table’ and not pay proper taxes? I think not and we shouldn’t tolerate that kind of lawbreaking by foreign ‘Christians’ either.
Comment by Patty — 01.16.07 @ 1:15 pm
As a resident of Los Angeles, Ca, I encounter illegal aliens on a daily basis. What irritates me more than the blantant ignorance of most people when they say that “the illegals do jobs Americans won’t” is the fact that they have nothing to back this up. The average job in the construction industry starts at $21 per hour. Even the illegals in the field get paid $10-14 per hour. These are not slave wages, but living wages that American citizens would accept if given the opportunity to be employed in these jobs.
It is highly irresponsible for Christians to jump on the liberal band wagon when it comes to the illegal alien issue. I submit that a true Christian would be against amnesty and illegal aliens because, theoretically, if the hardest working, law-abiding men of Mexico are coming to America, then all that is left in Mexico are women, children, and those who can’t readily care for themselves.
Comment by Nicole — 01.16.07 @ 1:18 pm
Well, I guess you haven’t given up.
Great
Comment by Rick — 01.16.07 @ 1:20 pm
To be recognized as a “state” among the countries of the world, four conditions must prevail. There must be territory/land mass. There must be a population of human beings. There must be a source of sovereign power over the population and the territory. There must be clear borders that surround the state which are generally recognized by neighboring states.
The source of the sovereignty has the job of maintaining the state.
All this relates to the temporal world. Islamic fundamentalists see the Imams as the only sovereign power over the people in a given landmass surrounded by recognized borders. Their great dream is an Islamic world without borders and all people obeying the will of the Islamic leaders.
This business of Christians ignoring the temporal structure of the states of the world strikes me as being little different from the aims of the fundamental Islamists.
One other thought: the Vatican has the status of being a “state.” Do you think an illegal alien stands a chance of jumping the border of the Vatican?
Should “true” Christians charter boats to go down to Peru to pick up the huge population of desperate peasants and sneak them across our borders? (Sort of a modern underground railroad, as it were.)
Comment by Heliotrope — 01.16.07 @ 1:55 pm
Helio, you can’t be serious in equating Christian Liberationists with Islamofascists!!!
That would put lie to Rosie’s contention that fundamentalist Christians are to be feared more than the Islamoterrorists. 
[/sarcasm]
That’s an excellent point about ignoring state structures. In any case, Rosie should rightly fear the ‘fundies’ if their goal is fairness & equality of opportunity as opposed to her embrace of ‘do as I say & not as I do’ top-down elitism.
Comment by Andy — 01.16.07 @ 2:34 pm
Like you, La Shawn, I am not ‘torn’ over illegal immigration. It is wrong to bend the law for illegal immigrants.
I have already given you the story of my wife and myself by e-mail. What I do not think I mentioned was the difficulty we had with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) over my wife’s immigration problems.
My wife and I were married while we were living in her country. I was an ELCA missionary at the time, and we had requested the ELCA help with the US Embassy which was throwing roadblocks in our attempt to get her visa. The ELCA ignored our repeated requests for help in dealing with the Embassy. I later found out from other ELCA missionaries that I served with that the ELCA had an unofficial policy of discouraging relationships between its American missionaries and foreign nationals. Apparently that policy extended to married couples such as my wife and I.
The ELCA is a left-of-center denomination that is big into immigration “reform”. This includes amnesty for illegals. It is ironic that the ELCA would not help with my wife’s attempt to immigrate legally, but they will lobby Congress to turn immigration policy on its head for the benefit of illegal aliens.
Comment by Mwalimu Daudi — 01.16.07 @ 3:41 pm
Helio,
Wow. I initially thought, “You can’t be serious”, but it seems you are.
Last year when I saw for the first time people comparing Christianity to fundamentalist Islam, I thought that the slide had begun. People have tried to peg Christianity as fascistic, intolerant, violent– generally bad in every way.
What did I expect from Satan’s world? Laurel wreaths?
The growth of Christianity is what gave rise to the modern nation-state during the Medieval Ages. One of the primary purposes of a nation-state is to maintain the sovereignty of a group of people who are bound by various combinations of race, culture, language, etc.
In maintaining the sovereignty of a people, borders must be enforced. There is no getting around it. Christianity, by the way, is the religion that insists that God is the Author of nations and peoples. Christianity knows nothing of this global/ transnationalism, and even less of the common statement that all religions are the same and preach the same thing. Theosophy, the incorporation of all religions into one and seeing no difference, is Anti-Christ. Or in the place of Christ.
To also suggest that smuggling people into the US is a modern-day underground railroad is ridiculous off the top. The analogy breaks down on so many levels.
However, on this one heated issue, we must use a bit of caution. I know that when those marches occurred back in May, I was pissed. I live in L.A. and I saw red every time I saw a Mexican flag waving defiantly in the face of Americans.
I honestly don’t know what to do. Personally, by virtue of living in L.A. and encountering illegals everywhere I turn, I think many of them are outright barbarians. Utterly amoral, in the sense that if they can get away with it, they’d knock you and steal your wallet and won’t see it as wrong.
There are others who love America and would do anything to stay here, not just because of economic reasons, but because they love everything our nation stands for. How many times have I driven by a house of a naturalized illegal with the Marine Corp flag waving outside?…
Both exists. In how many numbers of each category I couldn’t say.
But, these folks are still immortal beings made in God’s image. If I recall, one of the indictments against the people of Sodom and Gomorrah is how they treated their illegal population.
Whatever we ultimately decide to do with the existing illegal population here in the US, we have got to close our Southern Border. Then we should take care of the Northern one.
God has placed the sword in the King’s hand to meet out justice. And the King (or President) is charged by God to look after the welfare of his people, and the King will also have to answer before His Throne for his conduct of office.
All I can say is thank God I’m not in President Bush’s shoes!
Comment by Thomas Nguyen — 01.16.07 @ 4:14 pm
Talking about an “illegal alien” “sneaking” into Vatican City isn’t a valid comparison - I would have to guess that Vatican City’s economy is income from the Catholic Church around the world, and tourism. There is no benefit to someone trying to sneak in - there would be no place to live/hide, even if you could be employed there. Find a comparison for another economic powerhouse people want to come to for economic betterment.
And all these people coming here illegally (I live in a border state) suck resources away from American citizens and legal aliens. What they do is morally wrong, breaking the law coming to the US, stealing people’s identities to obtain employment or taking “under the table” employment, the list goes on. What they really need to do is stay in whatever country they come from and try to fix things there to make it better for everyone, and not come here and make things worse for us.
Comment by Miss Ladybug — 01.16.07 @ 4:37 pm
Interesting essay. I agree. However, having read the cited Biblical passage, I wonder whether our founding fathers sinned by rebelling against the crown. Just wondering.
Comment by Dave — 01.16.07 @ 4:53 pm
First, the US govt does not derive its power from the people. It was put in place by God to protect the nation of Israel and to spread the Gospel.
When I look at our history, its the only reason we exist. Its leaders are not selected by the people, but by God Himself. We think we have a choice, but we really dont — yet we still vote anyway…
I think your argument fails when trying to use the Romans verse in support of your position.
The same could be said for all those who “disobeyed” Jim Crow laws, interracial marriage laws and all those color coded laws that were in effect for years. I doubt that Christians who disobeyed and died while those laws where in effect are in Hell today.
Then there are those who are doing things that are not illegal but immoral, they too follow the law. Abortion, flippant divorce, etc, etc…
You have to look at the law and completely dissect it. You have to compare it with God’s word and decide for yourself.
I think you can go both ways here.
Someone breaking the law by coming into the country looking for work, not going through proper channels. This in itself is the illegal part. Thats it, leave it at that. Until this law changes, its illegal.
I support McCain and Lieberman’s plan. Until then, I still help and tell my neighbor about Christ regardless of their citizenship status.
Comment by lukeNC — 01.16.07 @ 5:55 pm
Once again, the American Revolution was NOT a sin against ordained rule in contrast to the French Revolution some 20 years later.
The best way to understand the distinctions would be to read the Declaration of Independence.
Secondly, contrast the two aforementioned revolutions. To do that, try
A Teale of Two Revolutions
Bear in mind that German, French and other immigrants to the new world did not ‘pass thru England’, as it were, to get there. Essentially, what was once a free for all, King George tried to hijack by dint of military might and demographics.
Instead of the high ratio of Englishmen, had the Dutch or any other nationality been in the majority, George would not have been so brazen to try and lord it over the colonies. In fact, we came within a vote of becoming a German speaking nation, such were the demographics back then.
Comment by Andy — 01.16.07 @ 6:21 pm
i live in n.e. NJ and come in contact with, what i suspect, are illegals on a frequent basis(this may sound wrong but, they pretty much look/dress the same). anyway, i understand why they come to this country, sometimes risking their lives in the process. america is the land of milk and honey where it is possible to get ahead provided you make the effort. but…that doesn’t mean you should be given citizenship just b/c you managed to cross our borders. i believe that if other countries followed our example (ie: no dictators, socialism/communism), their people would stay b/c there would be a chance to actually make a living. maybe it’s just me, but doesn anyone else see a trainwreck-in-the-making w/what chavez intends to do in venezuela? i wouldn’t be surprised if more venezuelans start to come to the u.s.-legally or not.
Comment by thomas — 01.16.07 @ 8:43 pm
As a Christian living in a border state, I’m opposed to illegal immigration because I’m tired of hearing about pregnant women and children found dead trying to make the brutal desert crossing. I’m tired of seeing signs on the highway warning of illegals trying to run across the highway. I’m tired of hearing about whole truckloads of people found sick and abandoned by the criminal smugglers who take their money and leave them to die when Border Patrol shows up. I’m tired of hearing about illegal immigrants being the victims of crimes or being underpaid by employers but being too afraid of deportation to report to the police.
I have no problem with allowing more liberal immigration quotas for immigrants to come to the U.S. legally, so long as they pass a criminal background check. As a Christian, I have a BIG problem with our government’s failure to enforce its immigration laws because that failure is promoting the creation of a vast, lawless, and victimized underclass. That’s not good for anyone in America, citizen or no.
Comment by D-Day — 01.16.07 @ 9:43 pm
>>…if the hardest working, law-abiding men of Mexico are coming to America, then all that is left in Mexico are women, children, and those who can’t readily care for themselves.>>
This is a part of the illegal immigration issue that I don’t see discussed much. It needs to be part of the conversation.
By the way…I have mixed feelings as well as others - I see many Mexicans who just want a better life and are willing to work for it just as our ancestors did. The problem, of course, is those who are just trying to get a free ride.
As an RC, by the way, I am angered by my church’s position. The Catholic church has been the state religion in Mexico for - I don’t know how many - years. What have they done to influence the Mexican government to treat their poor equitably? Same is true for most of SA. It’s all very well to say the US should welcome South America’s poor, but the truth is that if their governments behaved in even 50% of how their religion commands, their people wouldn’t be so poor.
Comment by suek — 01.16.07 @ 9:54 pm
Tom Tancredo for President! Pro-Life, Pro-Rule of Law
It’s official! Tom Tancredo has formed his exploratory committee. The announcement today was greatly anticipated. Congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado, known mostly for his outspoken opposition to illegal immigration and guest-worker/ amnesty for ille…
Trackback by Life of the Party — 01.16.07 @ 10:45 pm
In the interest of broadening horizons, expanding brain capacity and becoming freer thinkers, here’s some good readin’ for us all to enjoy on this chilly Tuesday night from Worcester, Massachusetts.
Pingback by Conservative Times — 01.16.07 @ 10:51 pm
Tuesday Night ‘Tastic Reads
In the interest of broadening horizons, expanding brain capacity and becoming freer thinkers, here’s some good readin’ for us all to enjoy on this chilly Tuesday night from Worcester, Massachusetts.
Hot Air:
Saudis warn Bush they might move…
Trackback by SevenStripes.com — 01.17.07 @ 12:50 am
not sure if anyone here has heard about it but it’s things like this that embolden our neighbors.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53805
Comment by thomas — 01.17.07 @ 2:30 am
I have been following the illegal immigration issue for about 5 years now. Though it appears to have been going on for a great deal longer, it hit home with me when I was at a little league game in a small community in Kansas when a bleacher full of people speaking nothing but Spanish were cheering for the other team. What the heck! This went on for the entire game. Where did these people come from? Why aren’t they speaking English? This is America. All these types of knee jerk reactions. I am no bigot or racist, however this struck me as very strange, living in mid-America. From that point on I began to notice more and more “foreigners” during my daily activities; mostly “hispanic looking” people. Working in the city, I would come into contact with numerous ethnicities and was not troubled by it. Nice people, could communicate. As I studied this issue over the next few years, I began to become anxious about what I was reading. To my amazement this had been going on for over 20 years. Anxiety turned to outrage in the Spring of 2005. Mexican flags? Cries for amnesty? Scriptures tells me to turn the other cheek but does not tell me what to do if I am struck again and again. We Americans are a good and loving people who are being taken advantage of by all that would come here illegally. Sorry to say it but it is mostly the hispanics. The radicals amongst them claim that the U.S. is their own and we should leave. Those less radical just snicker and probably believe the same thing. They know that they have the blessings of the business community and will not be required to assimilate. Coming from a country where corruption and bad dealings is a means of survival, they bring these same “family values” with them. Christian values are only applied to each other. I pray not, but, the coming amnesty legislation forced down our throats by the majority in the house and senate will cause a stain on what it is to be an American citizen. It will dilute our vote and the values we cherish will diminish. Sad words from a sad American. Someone please prove me wrong.
Comment by Randy — 01.17.07 @ 10:02 am
Suek, good point about the RC in SA. I think the biggest problem is the ‘liberation theory’ espoused by many priests which is fundamentally socialist. This crackpot theory depends on class warfare and jealousy of the haves by the have-nots.
Perhaps the Pope ought whack them upside the head and have the priest start exerting pressure for real reforms on their homefronts.
Comment by Andy — 01.17.07 @ 11:21 am
La Shawn,
In your previous post about Tancredo, you wrote:
“Rep. Tom Tancredo, a man who should but will never be president of the United States.”
Never say “never”. The “New media” can override the mantra of the old media and the party establishment types. Remember Harriet Miers. It CAN be done.
Comment by Michelle — 01.17.07 @ 2:22 pm
Very few folks have a problem with individuals trying to make a better life for their families. Contray to the opinion of the perpetually aggrieved, race is not the issue here. At the end of the day, the problem is that individuals are trying to make a better life for their families ON THE BACKS OF AMERICAN FAMILIES while engaging in illegal behavior to do so.
Comment by jan — 01.17.07 @ 3:35 pm
jan, you’re right about illegals making a better life on the backs of AMERICAN families.
WSJ just had a front page article today about a chicken-processing plant in Stillmore, GA. It’s a long and in-depth article about a complex subject and I certainly can’t do justice to it here.
In short, ICE raided the Crider plant causing them to lose 75% of the 900 workforce.
Since then, Crider bumped wages up by more than a dollar and offered free transportation from nearby towns and even offered free rooms at the company owned dorms. As a result, a lot of the low-skilled AMERICANS have been hired, taking some 200 off the unemployment line. Not since the ’90s have blacks been in the majority at 70%.
But, there’s always a but. The issue is complex for Crider. Not only did the illegals work for less, they worked harder and productivity was high 24/7. The problems with the black workforce is that while some are grateful for steady work with lots of overtime, there are a bunch of whiners crying about how much they should be paid and a high turnover. Also productivity is dramatically lower, causing the legal hispanics to resent most of the newly hired blacks.
No matter what, immigration’s effect on the workforce is not going to be easy, at the same time, having an open border will make it that much harder to come to a happy solution for all.
Comment by Andy — 01.17.07 @ 4:06 pm
In all fairness, despite all, I really really admire the work ethic of many of the illegals who come to this country. Having worked for decades with impoverised individuals from Third World countries, there is much to be said for “being hungry” as an impetus to hard work.
Comment by jan — 01.17.07 @ 6:11 pm
Christians and Illegal Immigration
LaShawn Barber throws down the gauntlet on those who are playing the Christian card in the illegal immigration debate:
Some people make the ludicrous argument that I can’t speak out against illegal “immigration” because I am a Christian. I expect su…
Trackback by Adam's Blog — 01.18.07 @ 1:13 am
I know what I believe about illegal immigration, but since I teach some illegal immigrants, then I just have to put it aside to show them love, no matter how they got here.
Comment by mj — 01.18.07 @ 10:42 pm
Christian groups in this country have in the past and continue to involve themselves with immigration law and have been sponsoring refugees, bringing them here, hooking them up with welfare benefits, supplying them with the tools they need to make sure the U.S. provides for the education, health services, legal help, and translators. This has been proven to be very bad for communities that host these people. These christian groups are doing an injustice to the U.S. citizens by forcing the extra costs and the hostility created by putting people from different cultures and beliefs into areas who can’t afford to absorb them. The Hmongs in WI. is a good example, The romanian gypsies, the Somolians and Sudanese are too. These people come with their old ways of doing things and their cultural beliefs don’t always abide with American laws. Honor killings, Female circumcision, forced marriages, slavory, and oppression of women is thriving in their communities within the U.S. communities. U.S. cities are forced to financially support these people and provide for their needs, the churches aren’t.
Illegal aliens are coming here in masses and are taking advantage of every loophole they can. They are demanding to be given the same benefits that are supposed to be for citizens. They are segrating themselves in large communities and showing disrespect for the American language, culture, laws and traditions and at the same time demanding that we respect their need to preserve their heritage. When an American does this, we are called racists. They feel entitled to our resources and ensure this by having U.S. born children.
This behavoir is new, the immigrants of yesterday knew they had a responsibility to learn the American ways. They didn’t come here uninvited and expect us to assimilate to them, nor did they come here pretending they are doing us the favor of being here.
Comment by joeyindc — 01.19.07 @ 3:21 am
I am not a Christian, so I am not so concerned with what is the correct Christian interpretation of the illegal immigration problem.
Instead, what I view as the relevant considerations are: What policy is in the best interest of the American people.
On that basis, I believe that the laws against illegal immigration must be strictly enforced, and no amnesty.
I would be amenable to a small number of illegal aliens with extremely mitigating circumstances be given amnesty, but the vast majority in my view must be required to return to their home country.
People often invoke the issue of fairness, but it gets you nowhere on this issue. Is it fair that most Americans have a materially abundant life while many in the third world do not? No it is not. But is it fair that people who live in close proximity to the U.S. who are far from the neediest in the world, come into our nation in violation of our laws?
If we had a permissive immigration policy that was based on FAIRNESS, then the illegal aliens currently in the country would not be allowed to stay, rather we would admit the far more needy people from places like Uganda and Bangladesh.
So fairness is a nonstarter on this issue.
I suggest a better basis for deciding policy is to determine what is in the public interest.
In my view the public interest dictates a very low flow of legal immigration and strict enforcement against illegal immigration. I believe a more permissive policy will lead to anarchy and disintegration of our society.
And as far as America’s right to enforce immigration laws, those who question that right are saying that Americans do not deserve the same right to self-determination that international human rights standards say ALL HUMAN BEINGS are entitled to.
And toleration of illegal immigration is not humanitarian. I believe the United States ought to do far more to help the world’s poor, but you can bet if our nation disintegrates due to the anarchy caused by illegal immigration, then we will no longer be a nation that is in a position to help other human beings in need.
Comment by Lance Sjogren — 01.19.07 @ 7:03 pm
LaShawn I have been trying to get my family nenbers to see exactly what you have just stated about the immigration issue. My brother who was in the army and worked on the border for about a year says he was against the lawbreakers when he worked there, but now that hes out and knows some of them, hes changed his mind. I asked him what about those who are trying to get in this country legally, filling out the paperwork, waiting their turn only to be pushed back further down the line. He had no answer.
Comment by deborah — 01.20.07 @ 6:40 pm
You made some good points but I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I won’t go long into explaining why, but here’s a poem that I wrote that pretty much sums it up with the whole loving your neighbor as yourself point (and Mexico is our neighbor).
“Mexico Walls”
The walls you build will turn on you
Brick and stone will crumble you
How you laugh but you shall cry
How you cheer at their exile
When the lights blast through the sky
You will remember their sighs
And as you run and plee for them to take you in
They’ll remember your lack of compassion
Mexico walls
Don’t build those walls
Mr. President
Don’t build those walls
Brick and stone will crumble you
The walls you build will turn on you
We’ve got a war in Iraq
And Israel might need us too
Why invest our money
In concrete when people need food?
Mexico walls
Don’t build those walls
Congress
Don’t build those walls
Brick and stone will crumble you
The walls you build will turn on you
###
Comment by SolShine7 — 01.21.07 @ 9:23 pm
I am NOT torn about enforcing the law of the United States of America - even a scintilla. My maternal grandparents came to this country seeking opportunity for their children LEGALLY and in the course of so doing, gave up lives of comfort in their homeland. My grandfather was university educated and a diplomat who spoke 18 languages and my grandmother was the very pampered daughter of a regional mayor. They came over here with very little money, a couple of kids and settled in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania where, to support their (eventual) 12 children, HE worked as a steelworker and SHE took in dressmaking for wealthy women. And from what my mother remembered of them (she was the baby of 12 and was orphaned at 14), they apparently never regretted their choice or the extreme hardships it took to make that major life change.
So yes, it is an insult to my grandparents (everyone’s grandparents) who gave up EVERYTHING to give their children a better life - and who did so in full compliance with the law - to allow other criminals (that’s what you are when you break the law) to sidestep the valid Federal laws regarding entrance across OUR border.
Mexico doesn’t have the right to tell us who can or cannot come into this country, nor does Canada. This is our country, PAID FOR BY OUR TAXES, and it’s our decision - nobody else’s.
Comment by Gayle Miller — 01.22.07 @ 3:42 pm
Honestly at the rate things are going in 5 years Spanish will be mandatory to getting a decent job. I.e, I’m listening to a Learn Spanish Fast CD will I work. Imagine in America
Comment by Bella — 01.23.07 @ 11:53 am
La Shawn: It is funny how as Christians, we seem to have doubt that life begins at conception, and we ridicule the pathetic and arbitrary attempts by opponents who say it begins at 6 weeks or 9 weeks or 9 1/2 weeks.
Christ was a warrior messiah. He took a whip and drove evil out of the temple. He died out of self-sacrificial love, not weakness.
Let me tell you that I have been to the front lines in this war on our borders, and none of your readers has the faintest idea what is really going on.
We sat out in the dark, on the US side of the border, and heard a woman screaming as she was raped by her coyote (smuggler). There was nothing we could do in the pitch darkness, without the ability to see, and not knowing if the armed drug smugglers we were staking out would shoot us. Until you see the evil brought about by this system that can only be described as 21st Century slavery is ended, every Christian who supports it or profits off it will have to answer for his/her sin.
Importing people to work for a pittance and live in subhuman conditions ought to be a capital crime. The fact that 25% of the more than 24,000 people who cross our borders every day (that’s 1,000 per hour, or between 8 & 9 million for the year 2007). Those statistics are based on the most conservative estimates using Time Magazines methodology from 2004, when the figure was 3.5 million for the year.
It is not very Christian, nor very neighborly to support an illegal act that results in the collapse of your education and health care infrastructure, or that brings a child-rapist to the illegal bunkhouse next door to an American family’s home, whose only crime is being poor. When Christians discuss this issue, I just wish they would arm themselves with facts before they bring emotion and start slinging guilt around.
The facts are incontrovertible that allowing an illegal invasion of the United States will destroy the American Southwest, and very probably wipe out the freedoms we American Christians enjoy, as Muslim Extremists blend in with the so-called “innocent” illegal aliens, and eventually proselytize them. It is not a stretch to picture a revolt in Los Angeles, whose population is comprised of over 50% illegal aliens. At the rate of influx and births, it will be 80% illegal alien within a decade. Whoever has the ear of the illegal alien, who will likely have been granted citizenship by the current politicians, will control California. None of this bodes well for the citizens who live in Southern California now, nor will it improve the life of the poor alien, but it is well on the way to wiping out everything that was once good in Southern California. If you do not believe me, come visit. Oh, and for any who wish to judge me a “racist” because I have a strong viewpoint, I am the only Caucasian in my extended family, and all of them agree with my viewpoint. I am also married to a woman whose family immigrated LEGALLY & every one of them became Americans.
I wish that everything I had written here was not true, but it is, and it saddens me.
God Bless and Godspeed.
Tim Donnelly
Former California State Director
Minuteman Civil Defense Corps
Comment by Tim Donnelly — 01.23.07 @ 4:27 pm