The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe Four-Disc Special Edition

Mark, I would say that there’s much more question over whether the heroes will triumph in the Harry Potter books than there are in the movies. The Harry Potter movies, particularly the early ones, unfortunately did not treat the books as part of a septology about good vs. evil but as trite children’s movies, hence their simplistic nature. It’s unfortunate that now, in the 4th and probably 5th movies, there isn’t enough background to carry on the greater septology plot lines — the ones that are truly important to the series as a whole. It would be like if the Lord of the Rings movies had focused more on the events of each individual book than on the trilogy-wide quest.

Anyway, LaShawn, I love both Harry Potter and Narnia. I would be hard-pressed to choose a favorite, but I guess if I was dealing with younger children I would choose Narnia because I find a lot of elements in the later Harry Potter books traumatic and downright scary! I thought the Narnia movie was given the respect the Harry Potter movies should have been — it was taken seriously, as a story about children but not necessarily a “children’s story.” It was very well done.

I think that Harry Potter has so far not shown the dilemma that Susan faced, and that gives many readers pause — that lipstick and nylons make her a sort of traitor to Narnia, because they signify her transition into adulthood (womanhood, specifically). She denied the reality of Narnia, yeah, but it went hand-in-hand with her natural maturation progress into a sexual adult with a more complex relationship to her faith. I guess I always felt uncomfortable that she had to be the example of what can happen when you get wrapped up in the secular world. I think Lewis was emphasizing the need for a childlike faith that is lost when one starts valuing temporary things (like being a socialite) more than the eternal. As Lewis wrote elsewhere, “All that is not eternal is eternally out of date.” Whether that is true or not is a separate issue — I think faith is more complicated than the childlike belief we begin with — but I think it’s a bit condemning to say to children that the moment something not directly related to God catches their attention, they risk damnation.

I like that Harry Potter doesn’t fuss around with any of this. You either can do magic or you can’t, and there’s no reason to disbelieve it if you can do it. I guess the Dursleys know of magic and do their best to ignore it, but they are left merely to suffer their own boring lives, not cast out of Britain or anything. You can screw up royally — as many characters have, including Harry — but no matter how badly you’ve screwed up, you can redeem yourself. (I think Draco’s overdue…) The kids grow up, and become their own people, and can still devote themselves to the fight against evil regardless of their material preferences (Quidditch, dating, etc). Children grow into adults, and throughout it all they can choose whether or not they want to be good people, and they can combine that with other aspects of their personalities.

I like that, in the Potter books, the magic world is THIS world, not another world; it lends an air of importance to the actions we take today. It seems to me that the Narnia books are more specifically Christian, while the Harry Potter books deal with a general theme of good vs. evil, which can be applied to Christianity but is not specifically about it.

I just love them both, though.

My only problem is getting my stiff-necked 27-year-old son to watch Narnia. He says, “Kiddy stuff. Nuts.” LOL LOL

His wife and my wife and I are ganging up on him; we’ll make him a convert yet.

Narnia, hands down, and I mean no disrespect to Harry Potter.

First, I’m much more a lover of ensemble, “body of believers” stories than I am of “a hero and his friends” stories. Potter has always seemed cartoonish and overdramatised (a la child characters in Roald Dahl’s classics) which is a lot of fun, but for sheer captivation, the very real, very mortal, very sinful children of Lewis’ works simply speak to me more evocatively.

Harry Potter’s adoptive family are cartoonishly grotesque, and make for great comedy and exaggerated pathos, but the family units in Narnia, for all their fantastical trappings, seem to run a bit more into the Deep Magic, if you know what I’m saying.

I enjoy them both. I cherish Narnia.

I think the biggest difference is that in Narnia, magic is something that *is*, not something that can be controlled. Attempts to control it always end badly. The second biggest difference is that in HP, good and evil aren’t so much sides as they are career choices. There’s nothing larger than the physical fate of the world at stake. In Narnia, there is a definite, omnipotent force behind the side of good (the Emperor-Over-The-Sea)and all attempts against him must ultimately fail, usually at the cost of the usurper’s life (in every sense). The Harry Potter books (and yes, I’ve read most of them) seem to shy away from the harder questions about eternity and the *nature* of good and evil, preferring to keep things strictly in the “Well, he’s mean to people so I guess it’s okay to thwart him at every possible turn” frame of dialogue.

I think the Potter books are more entertaining for a quick read. But I think the Narnia books are much better written.

I got the Narnia DVD last year, so I’m not buying another .

Now I was not going to get into this other aspect of things, but this is about the 2nd time my friend La Shawn has brought it up, so here we go.

1) If you’re a Christian and you agree with Mallory (hates Potter; loves Narnia), why do you believe Harry Potter is evil or dangerous but Narnia is not?

I lived in Gwinnett County, GA where Mallory lives for 10 years. I’m also a Christian (of course you knew that) and I agree that Potter indoctrinates children into the occult. Although I’m not with her efforts to ban it from schools. Narnia is not dangerous because it is a Christian allegory. With Narnia the witch is evil and a defeated foe. While in the Potter books witchcraft is celebrated and the central figure in the books is a Warlock (male witch).

La Shawn,

Well, you know my views about Harry Potter. I like Narnia. Many would ask what would be the difference since both movies have witches and magic. The difference is who is the primary agent in these movies, that is, who is doing what.

In Harry Potter, Harry is the witch/warlock and he is the others of his ilk in the school conduct magic and incantations, etc.

In Narnia, the humans aren’t the agents to magic. In fact, the witch, who conducts magic, in this movies is unabashedly portrayed as evil. Aslan can hardly be counted as a warlock or magician since in the story’s cosmology, He is the Creator of Narnia. A witch manipulates the reality that Aslan (God) created.

The two are not morally equivalent.

Furthermore, I’ve heard it argued that Harry Potter is morally sound because it evinces the eternal battle between good and evil. (I really don’t know why this battle would have to be eternal. Our Lord is going to end evil at some point.)

I found this argument unsettling since it’s really neither a here nor there as far as morality goes.

Anyone studying Plato and the elements of a story would know that to write a successful story, there must be conflict. A protagonist and antagonist.

If the story is good, it’ll make the reader or movie-watcher identify with the protagonist; that is, the writer/director would manipulate the reader to “care for” what happens to this character. If a viewer or reader doesn’t care for the protagonist, the story will come off flat, unmoving. If the writer/director wants to move your emotions, it’ll be through trials and tribulations of the protagonist with whom you identify.

Another important element in good storytelling is to have a good antagonist, or someone or something that obstructs the goals of the the protagonist. More often than not, the storyteller will offer some redeeming quality to this character but will overall demonize him.

In a word, the antagonist is evil. The protagonist is good.

It is all well and good that we root for the protagonist and cheers when/if he wins over his enemy, but what does this have to do with whether a story is moral?

This is just a simple device of story telling, and it is also morally neutral.

What makes a story moral or immoral or amoral is what the characters actually do and the context in which they do it.

Narnia and Harry Potter makes a very good illustration of a moral movie and an immoral movie. It is a given that when a person watches a movie, he will be manipulated by the creators of that movie. The subliminal is just as important (or more important) to making a movie as the primary action, and it certainly is much more dangerous since we are oftentimes unaware we are being manipulated through these background devices.

For instance, one of the tenets or underlying assumptions, something the viewer must of the Harry Potter movie is that witches exist and they can be good or evil. When you accept this, you tacitly accept that manipulating reality supernaturally with your mind against the will of God is not only fine but can be positively commendable. “Good” is not just a sentiment; it’s an action. Logically then, doing witchcraft can be “Good”, thus, defying God can be “Good”.

Narnia on the otherhand, has the underlying assumption, that another world exist parallel to our own, and in this other witches and fairytale creatures populate this world. One finds very quickly in reading the Narnian books that witches and conductors of magic are always evil. The good are usually brave humans and creatures who act in the Name of the Creator of that world, Aslan, without magic at all. Aslan being the Creator of Narnia could not be said to be a warlock or a witch of any sort. To suggest so would be nonsense. One must be a created creature and manipulate a created reality to be a witch.

Aslan is neither.

Again, I think Mrs. Mallory’s crusade against Harry Potter to be ill-conceived, but who I am to say she is wrong? Perhaps she is called to it, just as some people are called to challenge the faith of evolution in our schools.

Lee,

I think your position is that of the secular progressives — formerly called ‘liberal’. Christians believe that the devil is very real and we cannot “dispel evil” through understanding.

Many would say Mallory is medieval in her thinking. Well, how would you react if you really believed the devil existed and he inspired the writing of this book?

Correction: I made a mistake. It’s not Plato; it was Aristotle who wrote about the elements of a story.

For me, it’s a total no-brainer. I absolutely love the Harry Potter series enough to re-read each one. Narnia, sadly underwhelmed. I found them too repetitive and preachy with characters that were not as memorable or complex as HP or LOTR.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=476

2)For Christians who like both, I’ll accept as a given that we approve the underlying themes and leave that discussion to others.

I like the Harry Potter series, particularly as it has evolved, for its excitement and ability to appeal to a child’s view of the world; but this may also be part of the reason I prefer The Chronicles of Narnia: Lewis has found a way to write up to adults without writing down to children. He uses lots of big beautiful words, sneakily defining them in context, so we all feel smarter for having read him.

Nor do his plots rely so heavily on the fecklessness of adults in their relationships with their charges; a fecklessness that is sometimes really exasperating in Harry Potter: “But Professor, Voldemort’s coming around the corner!!” “You’ve violated curfew; go to your room at once!”

I have to give Lewis an 95 and Rowling an 89. I don’t grade on a curve, so these are both rousing endorsements.

Lord help me! What I wouldn’t give to taste that cake for the first time again…

What are you waiting for, La Shawn???

Wow, interesting comments. For the record, I love Narnia & LOTR series. With HP, I hesitate. No, I’ve never picked up the books or watched more than a couple of minutes here & there.

I can’t put my finger on it as to why the unease. Until I do, the kids don’t get any HP action. This unease was present from the very 1st when I heard of HP.

Then I saw a story where Lahhaye and the other writer of the left behind series praised Rowling for her writing skills and what a wonderful series it was turning out to be. Rather than be swayed by them, instead, the unease expanded to include their left behind series. Weird eh?

I am quite familar with both of their works pre- Left Behind. Even tho I believe that among the various theories of the 2nd Coming, I’m more aligned with this version, yet I balk at reading/watching anything more from them since then.

Why the unease? Is it that small still voice? Perhaps. Fear/ignorance? Not likely. I have enjoyed various books by Christian writers that revolve around witchcraft and the corresponding demon possession. This is the reality that often gets short shrift by the typical & naive Christian living sheltered lives in the West.

As a missionary kid, I’ve had contact & encounters with witchdoctors, ju-ju etc while living in Africa and these encounters with the principalities of darkeness can be very, very tangible. So is my unease over HP, some sort of 6th sense honed from my background? Probably.

Perhaps, one of these days, I’ll get around to investigating HP and put it to rest for now, however, it’s not high on my prirtoty list. At the same time, when I read some of the pro-LOTR/Narnia & anti-HP, I feel a stronger alignment with their points than with the pro-HP.

I guess part of it boils down to the source. Tolkien & Lewis are defenders of the Faith, while Rowlings isn’t a Believer. If she claims otherwise, then I’m guessing her faith is as deep as Oprah’s.

As for LaHaye and others? Just because one believes, doesn’t mean that one always puts out secularized stuff worthy of a ‘meat-eater’, let alone edifying the ‘milk-drinkers’. That would be akin to listening to Amy Grant’s latest pop hit for inspiration, I’d rather hear Steve Taylor or Daniel Amos.

Thomas Nguyen:

In a word, the antagonist is evil. The protagonist is good.

This is a gross oversimplification of literature. In many great works, there are very unclear delineations between good and evil. Same with movies. This is the human element — people are rarely either good or evil; most of us fall somewhere in between. Furthermore, it is possible for two good people to be doing two ‘good’ things (or two “bad” things) that put them in opposition to each other. Most great literature does not deal with a battle between good and evil, but rather a conflict between two competing desires, one of which may or may not be “better” than the other. Still more great literature contains little about good and evil at all — coming of age stories, etc.

It is, in fact, difficult to write a story that is purely about good vs. evil that does not come off as overly simplistic. Such stories, when written well, often become known as epics because of the rarity of their quality in this genre. Narnia, Lord of the Rings, etc.

Rarely is the protagonist “evil,” in the truest sense of the word. Voldemort is — he is a wizarding equivalent of Hitler. This is explicitly a conflict of good vs. evil, not just some literary device of the protagonist being good and the antagonist being “not good” by default.

The Harry Potter books are allegories, not meant to be taken literally. For this reason, I don’t think that the presence of magic in them is offensive. You could say (and it is so in the Potter books) that non-wizard use of electricity is somewhat similar to a wizard’s use of magic, in Harry Potter’s world. If you accept the fictional world in which magic merely exists, it is a neutral force, much like a person’s ability to write. The fact is, there is obviously no chance that children reading Harry Potter are going to be able to do magic, and little chance that children reading the books will even THINK that they can do magic. But there is a chance that they will believe that the tools they are given, by God, are theirs to use as they see fit — and that HOW they use those God-given tools make a huge difference in themselves and in other people.

Ever had a glass of fresh ice-cold lemonade on a hot, humid summer day? That’s The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings.

Ever had a glass of lemonade after it has sat for several hours in the sun on a hot, humid summer day? That’s Harry Potter.

Neither Narnia, Potter nor LOTR seem to me to be very effective vehicles for promoting witchcraft.

Come to think of it, I cannot recall reading a book or seeing a movie that promoted witchcraft, even subtly. There used to be a show on TV called Charmed that might have fit the bill as witchcraft-friendly (if producers had want it to, that is), but that series seemed to be more concerned with T & A than spells and potions.

I haven’t read the Harry Potty books, so I can’t judge on question #1. I’ve seen one movie, but rarely does any book-based movie reflect the book adequately.

Nevertheless, it’s hard for me to imagine any other childhood book series topping Narnia, with the single exception of The Hobbit & LOTR. However, I read that for the first time as a teen (and many, many times thereafter).

I am a fan of both, and if I had to pick, would pick The Chronicles of Narnia, perhaps because I first read them as a child, and remember the incredibly magical feeling of “entering into the wardrobe with the children”…It’s very refreshing to know that there are other Christians that don’t condemn the Harry Potter series. Both The Chronicles of Narnia and Harry Potter are wonderful stories where good overcomes evil, something we need to see and read about more in today’s society.

Bizimama
http://www.bizimama.com
http://www.lordsart.com

I found Harry Potter way too dark, and progressively more so as the series has gone on. I much prefer the hope and light in the Narnia stories. I also prefer the sense of authority in the Narnia tales. Harry comes across very much as a law unto himself much of the time. I think I’m probably an old-fashioned English girl, too, and enjoy the older dialogue to the newer style.

But I don’t burn books unless the heating has been off for several days and I’ve already burnt all the furniture.

The documentary on the New narnia Dvd is worth the price, for sure, it’s very, very good. My 5 year old was enthralled.

Addition: Even if the schools use these books in the classroom, a parent has the right to keep their child from participating in that part of the lesson. The only way I would raise a stink is if the school tried to interfere with my personal right to shield my child from something I do not want them involved in.

Alexandra,

I believe we are operating off of two entirely different premises and are talking at cross purposes.

You insist on real life analogies about good and evil, while I am only addressing myself to the art of storytelling and what I take to be the basic premise of the Harry Potter fiction universe.

I agree with your distinction, that conflict between the protagonist and antagonist can more than just a story about opposing sides, but about good and evil. I just don’t think that is the case here in the Potter stories.

Allow me an analogy– occult witchcraft back in the heyday of Christendom was just as evil as vampires, werewolves, and devils. In today’s movies and TV shows, like Angel, the demon vampire is portrayed as the “good guy” because he uses his vampire powers to thwart evil and thwarts plots to destroy the world.

But this is the relativism that slunk into our consciousness when we weren’t looking. Vampires CANNOT be on the side of “good” in a battle between “good and evil”. By definition, they are EVIL.

Witches, likewise, are EVIL. For them to use their powers to thwart evil and be on the “good” side is just as ridiculous as a vampire, a spawn of hell, to be “good”.

I know, I know. You say this is just a fictional story. Kids don’t believe they can fly and do magic (tell that to the Wiccans…). I think it is folly to think that what we let our kids read and watch on TV doesn’t affect them.

For that matter if a person has a certain gift, like in the Potter movies, where is the submission to God’s will?

You said:

“I also do not believe that if, in a fictional world where some characters are born with the ability to perform magic, magic involves “bending reality with your mind.” In that world, magic IS a part of reality, not an altering of it. I am not saying that it’s about harnessing energy with your mind, I’m saying that it’s about using the innate abilities you have to advance your world.”

This is the very premise I object to, a world where humans have god-like powers and uses it casually.

I’d rather not read these books. In all things, as a Christian, I believe our actions are either of God or of Satan. The Great Divorce is quite real and is occurring as we speak.

Whatever the author’s intention in writing these Potter books, for entertainment or otherwise, I personally don’t think it is good for my soul. We all must acknowledge what we cannot handle or is dangerous to our salvation. I don’t know about what other Christians can handle, but for myself, this is dangerous ground for personal reasons…

I find the controversy over Harry Potter to be almost a humerous as those within the church who tell me I’m going to hell for liking RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons.

I’m not a particular fan of either Harry Potter or Narnia. However, I can see why those opposing Potter might like Narnia.

In Narnia, the only practitioner of “magic” is the Queen, who seems to be a avatar for Satan. The magic done by the “good” characters in the movie, at least, seems to be something more akin to a miracle than magic. Some power which was conferred upon them by someone else, not something they developed on their own.

On the other hand, in Harry Potter, the magic seems to be something that is hereditary. In fact, there is even a derogatory term for non-magic practitioners, a “Muggle.” What I find interesting is that “Muggle” was also a term for a group of Christians in 19th England. Muggles in the Potter books don’t seem to be held in particular high esteem.

I don’t see anything in the Narnia Chronicles which would make one become interested in magic or the occult. On the other hand, I know a number of interviews of children who were fans of Harry Potter who did express interest in magic and becoming a “wizard like Harry Potter.” And any casual journey down the New Age/Witchcraft aisle in either Borders or Barnes and Nobles will yeild a plethora of books aimed at exploiting this interest.

In Harry Potter, the characters seem to adopt a “the ends justify the means” morality. They lie, steal, break rules, and circumvent authority at will, without ever facing any consequence of doing these things. In Narnia, the kids circumventing the rules results in Aslan being killed. Quite a difference in the two stories.

Now, do I think Harry Potter is evil and needs to be banned. No. I’m not saying if I had kids I’d want them reading the books, but if they are, with the knowledge and supervision of their parents, I don’t see any problem with them, any more than a kid playing D&D is wrong (in fact, I’d have more doubts of a kid playing an RPG than reading Potter). What is important is a parent knowing what their kids are doing and making sure their being guided in their interests to make sure they don’t take any “wrong” turns with them.

Andy,

In reading your comment here, if I may, if I were in your shoes I would listen to that little voice of hesitancy that gives you pause in these kinds of matters. Also, if I were in your shoes, I’d rather not let my curiosity get the better of me, especially on this subject.

I’ve been back to my family’s home country, and in the depths of the dark jungles of Vietnam, the things that go bump in the night are not abstract at all… The sophisticated, urbane person ignores that little voice at his own risk. We all hear it.

In my own experience if my guts say “yes” that amounts to a “maybe”. If it says “no”, that means “no”. I’ve learned to listen to my guts after being chewed up the universe more times than I’d like to recount…

Thomas, thanks. We’re on the same page. From all that I’ve heard/read, HP isn’t compelling enough for me to pull an Acts 17:11 to come up with a definitive answer for me and my house.

The ‘dark’ jungles weren’t just dark figuratively — or in PC context, demeaning, as in ‘dark continent’ — it was spiritually dark and savage, as is always the case in any culture where Satan is lord of all.

The thing I’m mindful of is that once the mind has been exposed to a certain thot, there is no going back to before that point. You can’t erase it and it has a way of popping up from time to time. To wit, once you read about or hear of something kinky or perverse, it becomes permanent, forever linked by word & image association and over time will incrementally build upon that initial thot.

In the worse case scenario, it takes over the life of the person. Just look at that pervert down in MS. For him, it all started with a thot that germinated and took root long before he started collecting boys for his hobby.

I can’t think of the name and author of a novel on demon possession that I read long ago. Anyway, his description was quite apt and I often recall it. He described it as the demons jamming their gnarled fingers, claws and all, into the organic brain, at times massaging and soothing their victims and at times inflicting spasms of agony, literally driving them nuts.

I’m also mindful that simply having an idol in your house is an invitation for demons to move in. The Bible was replete with finding and destroying all within the community & home. There’s been documented occasions, even in our modern times, where in exorcising demons, it was found that the only reason that possession occurred in the first place was something as ‘tame’ as having an idol. It doesn’t matter what the owners believe, the demons will claim and receive divine right from God to move in, even on devout Christians.

This is not to state that HP books/films is the equivalent of idolatry — I just don’t know but I also don’t want to find out first hand. I’ll content myself with leaving others to do that investigation and I’ll consider their reports

Thomas, thanks!