Thursday, February 8: Ward Connerly responds to commenters’ accusations of hypocrisy.
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Note: How could I have forgotten to link to Heather Mac Donald’s must-read article, “Elites to Anti-Affirmative-Action Voters: Drop Dead”? She writes:
After Prop. 209’s passage, UC Berkeley, like the rest of the UC system, “went through a depression figuring out what to do,†says Robert Laird, Berkeley’s pro-preferences admissions director from 1993 to 1999. The system’s despair was understandable. It had relied on wildly unequal double standards to achieve its smattering of “underrepresented minorities,†especially at Berkeley and UCLA, the most competitive campuses. The median SAT score of blacks and Hispanics in Berkeley’s liberal arts programs was 250 points lower (on a 1,600-point scale) than that of whites and Asians. This test-score gap was hard to miss in the classroom. Renowned Berkeley philosophy professor John Searle, who judges affirmative action “a disaster,†recounts that “they admitted people who could barely read.â€
The downward trajectory of those students was inevitable, Searle says. “You’d be delighted to find that your introductory philosophy class looked like the United Nations, but that salt-and-pepper effect was lost after six to eight weeks,†he recalls. “There was a huge dropout rate of affirmative-action admits in my classes by mid-terms. No one had taught them the need to go to class. So we started introducing BS majors, in an effort to make the university ready for them, rather than making them ready for the university.†Searle recalls a black studies class before his that was “as segregated as Mississippi in the 1950s.†One day, Searle recounts, the professor had written on the blackboard that a particular tribe in Africa “wore colorful clothing.â€
Read it all, and applaud measures like Proposition 209 and Proposal 2.
Roger Clegg of the Center for Equal Opportunity put in a freedom of information request and found out what’s really going on at the government-supported University of Michigan.
Yes! Ban racial profiling…including racial profiling in government hiring and admissions. (Hat tip: Discriminations)
*** Scroll down for updates***
It’s been a long time since one of my race preferences posts generated 100+ comments.
Comments tend to build on posts where commenters who care about the issue drill down into certain aspects of the issue. That happened on a recent post about the Supreme Court’s decision not to reverse the 6th Circuit’s order to Michigan state universities to begin implementing Proposal 2 without delay. Something about the post struck a chord, and the “debate” kept going.
I’m pleased to see so many comments, of course. But even if my posts produced zero, plenty of readers who’ve never and likely will never comment benefit from reading a different and much-needed perspective. I once wrote that if this blog received no or much fewer comments, I’d still be here, updating and occupying my corner of the blogosphere. As long as I’m expressing myself well and sharing what I believe are important ideas, I’m satisfied. 
Today I want to cover the race preferences issue from a different perspective. First, read “The Michigan Win,” by Ward Connerly, the man behind three state campaigns that successfully banned race preferences in government hiring and admissions. He’s confident that ballot initiatives against preferences are the way to go, which is why preference proponents, like most liberals, prefer the courts. Lowered-standards policies are deeply entrenched in America, so opponents need to be prepared for a long fight.
Check out Connerly’s semi-autobiographical book, Creating Equal: My Fight Against Race Preferences. (read my review)
What struck me in Connerly’s article was this statement (emphasis added): “It appears that ‘white guilt,’ as Shelby Steele describes the phenomenon, has just about run its course with respect to the people’s tolerance for race preferences.”
You may know that Shelby Steele, one of those “black conservatives,” wrote a book titled, White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era. Steele argues that blacks, who once embraced personal responsibility and independence, now prefer to accept government handouts and to use skin color for gain and guilt. Whites, feeling guilty about past discrimination and subjugation of blacks, excuse certain destructive behaviors and encourage the handout mentality. It offends me beyond words that some whites may judge me by lower standards. But that’s the culture we live in, and policies like race preferences are directly to blame. Not only do some (few? many?) whites judge blacks by lower standards, blacks judge themselves by lower standards.
It’s kind of sick, really. 
The discussions about race on this blog are unusual. People usually don’t talk about policies like “affirmative action” in mixed company. If they don’t have anything good to say about it, most don’t say anything at all, especially if blacks are nearby. They prefer the distance of an online forum, and I’m happy to provide it. Today I’d like to do something different. Rather than arguing for or against race preferences, I’d like to hear from white readers who may have a tinge of “white guilt.”
I have to do a little segregating here, so don’t hold it against me.
Questions for white readers (Be honest!):
1) What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt?
2) If you once suffered from white guilt but now you’re over it, how/why did you get over it?
Questions for black readers (Be honest!):
1) Do you loath government-mandated, lowered-standards policies like race preferences as much as I do?
2) If not, why do you believe race preferences are necessary in America?
Update: In response to the first set of questions, Eugene Levitzky wrote:
(1) One thing I did recently that was based on white guilt was to allow for a black employee to get away with behavior I did not allow others to get away with. That is, I did not comment on his behavior and did not speak to him as I do to others about ethics in the workplace or did not talk to him about how his behavior affected others on the job. Being Christian, I had a tremendous call to say something to him, to set him straight. But 20 plus years of my former liberalism kicked in and I made excuses for his behavior.
(2) I am mostly over any white guilt I may have had (except for the above mentioned case) and the reason for this is Christ. What kind of man am I if I treat someone differently because of their race? I no longer cringe at the way I often abased myself in certain social situations and at the way I made “excuses†for bad behavior or criminal behavior because of someone’s skin color. I feel it is a sin to give the finger to someone in traffic, but I still do it when my anger boils over. But I feel it is an even greater sin to not give the finger to someone because that someone is black. Why, even in my anger, would I differentiate? I know I’m giving a silly example but I’ve often thought about this — why did I treat someone differently, whether I was being kind or being cruel? Because I was a “racialist.†I was reducing a man’s character to his race. I was hamstringing my relations with people by putting blacks on a pedestal and self-censoring my speech in fear of letting what would be an offensive word or two slip and hurt someone’s feelings.
Resources:
- Repeating History – brief background on affirmative action
- White Guilt and the Western Past
- Racism — fact or fiction?
{ 142 comments }
What an interesting question! I certainly DID suffer from white guilt, and some of it was appropriate. I have some internalized racism from my culture and sinful nature, and it is a sin. Now it only sometimes pops up in my head as a racist thought, judging someone based on their race. I roll my eyes at myself, ask God’s forgiveness, and move on.
The guilt for me was part of a stage I went through as I began to understand the history of oppression against blacks in my country. Now my family has a long history of being dirt farmers, no slave owners cause they were too poor. My grandfather sold veggies from a truck in the black community of central Louisiana, and was known for charging whites and blacks the same price. Unusual in his day.
But my guilt came from how blacks were hurt and held back by people who look like me, many of them calling themselves Christians. So I repented and asked God to change me and He is. I got over the guilt when I realized that I was no longer part of the problem, that my heart was changed. Understanding the strength and importance of personal responsibility helped, as did figuring out that there were people who had a job of calling everything racist.
I guess my personal growth and edification left me with a clearer mind to recognize what is racist and what is not. For the record, any racism is wrong and a sin, but there is not nearly so much of it now as there was. And that is a good thing.
Trey
“…judge [you] by lower standards…” LaShawn, heck, if I lived closer to you I’d be courting you. You are magnificent.
The best analogy I can draw to my “race guilt” is a breastfeeding woman. I don’t feel shame for happening to glance over at her as much as I would anyone else, but I make a active effort to avoid it because I know that if I look in passing it could be mistaken for staring or my intent could be misconstrued. I’m simply trying to avoid problems. Do I feel like I owe every black man, woman, and child for slavery? Not at all. Do I worry that I will be held responsible for racism simply for not treating someone special? Absolutely. Duke is proof of this fact. The two things that you can be accused of without a shred of evidence and still be “guilty” of is Rape and Racism.
My father was accused of being racist. He’s not in the least a racist, but he bumped into a young black man in line at the movies, my father turned and gave a quick, “sorry about that.” My dad is quick to be less then charming but he will be very friendly in civil company. The guy responded with a “F***ing Cracker pushing me cause I’m a dumb n*****” Both my dad and I were aghast. Being the charming guy he is my father said “If I give you 40 acres and a mule will you drop the victim act?” Now I was proud, not because my dad went to his usual charm, but that he made a cotent comment that (for once) I agreed with. The young man looked at us and asked my dad if he called him a donkey. I’m tired of an assumption of guilt in every instance, and I want to see it END
1) What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt?
Really nothing that I can think of. I’ve never suffered from white guilt, I’ve always believed that everyone should be treated equally, regardless of the past. I’ve never felt responsible for the few ancestors that had slaves 350 years ago – I’m not them. There have been all kinds of injustices throughout history, you can’t take on all of those burdens for all people. My Irish and Italian relatives were terribly discriminated against, that’s just how things were then. I certainly don’t go looking for handouts because of it. They dealt with it by working hard and eventually society overcame the discrimination. Once the discrimitory laws are repealed, it just takes time.
BTW, my brother-in-law is black and my niece and nephews are mixed. They are a welcome part of our family just like the rest and the kids certainly don’t get a pass on bad behavior or expected behavior because of any guilt.
2) If you once suffered from white guilt but now you’re over it, how/why did you get over it?
Never suffered from it.
Black.
I loathed as much as you do. I think for me we should be building people up, I don’t believe in spoon-feeding people but I also believe that the government should be there to assist people to recover. If you’re a 18 years old girl who got pregnant, no I don’t think you should be getting the easy way of collecting welfare checks every month. Having programs where a young girl is only supported for a limited number of time with assitance in developing some skills in training school and getting her help starting a career and finding a job is more beneficial in the long term.
I think schools should be equally funded. Schools do not get the same funding, and I know it has to do with the tax system of the respective, county, state ect… But i believe a government should invest in education and providing up to date education to every kid in American equally. It’s a shame that one of the greatest country in the world is really doing bad in the ranking
Again, I’ve lived in Europe. I also think universities should be free. In France, for instance most universities including the prestigious ones are free. I know many people will disagree with me. But I think it’s the goverment’s responsiblity to invest in the future generations. On the other hand, there are tons of opportunities to go to college free so people should take them, grants, loans, financial aids ect… When there’s a will, there’s a way
During the cold war, Eastern Europe was pushing their citizens to go into fields of science and engineering to stay the best. A government especially the American government should do the same, push for excellence and high standards and provide everyone the same chance by having schools all across the country equally funded with the same resources, materials to succeed. It’s a shame that poorer countries are doing better in terms of education and that the American education system has gone down across the board regardless of race, class, status ect…
I don’t think race preferences is necessary in America, however, we can’t be color blind. Having grown up in Europe, I have a more socialist (NOT COMMUNIST)BUT SOCIALIST outlook. I think that all government based programs are good, but only if everyone is protected and included, because then there’s really no division or preferrential treatment given to one group over another. The thing is we wouldn’t need affirmative action if “discrimination-free” against every group was guaranteed. A friend of mine is latino doctor who feels that affirmative action is good as you need to attract minorities into fields like medicine, science and engineering. and my response was that how about attracting every kids about the attractive side of the field of science. The more I’m looking at Affirmative Action the more I realize that it’s bringing more divisions. I have met many whites who didn’t have a “racist” bone in their body but with the latest themes of discrimination, the ISM, and affirmative action and many more, they suddenly become more bitter.
Lashawn, you blog on race, Paula Zahn has been doing race special every night on her show. I do think it’s just a trick to exploit the stories. I don’t get any weight out of the discussion and it tends to serve as a way for an agenda. The racism they focus more is on white to Black. She does speak about other forms of discrimination but not the way the black vs white segments are exploited. CNN even got in trouble when they went to Vidor, Texas and only interviewed the worst of the town. The people of the town were disappointed because their town had improved. There’s an agenda I feel with her race shows every night.
She has a panel and I’m suprised that she hasn’t invited you to comment? Maybe you should email her?
“The two things that you can be accused of without a shred of evidence and still be “guilty†of is Rape and Racism. ”
John that thing can apply across to every race, remember the Kobe Bryant thingie.
But watching Paula Zahn “light” handling of race on the show, one guy said that with the Duke race he finally understood how black people were reacting with the OJ Simpson case or all the other cases of blacks accused of committing crimes against whites, especially those that involved passion.
*sigh* I’ll bite, even though these are the sort of slanted questions that are anathema to an honest conversation on the issue.
1) Do you loath government-mandated, lowered-standards policies like race preferences as much as I do?
No. I don’t see the psychological issues like stigma, divisiveness b/w the races, assumption that blacks lack the intellectual ability to do certain jobs, etc., etc. as being the product of race preferences–these things pre-dated affirmative action, and are still present in California and Michigan.
2) If not, why do you believe race preferences are necessary in America?
I don’t know that you have to believe something is “necessary” to support it. For instance, most supporters of faith-based initiatives would not characterize them as necessary in the sense that people of faith in America would fail without them…
That being said, I think these preferences, as they exist today as a race-plus factor, have done substantial good for a group of people, and coincided with the expansion of the black middle class, which is a serious plus. On the other hand, I don’t believe you can show a counterbalancing harm being done to white people, at least not on the same scale.
Why dismantle a program that has (1) worked, and worked well for millions of people (a benefit) and (2) has not imposed substantial costs on any group of people? Particularly since the race-plus stuff has (rightly) been upheld consistently for the last thirty years.
Trey, I agree.
Again, on the Paula Zahn “Light” handling of race on her show, a white pastor said that Racism should be looked as a sin, the same way you look at stealing, lying, cheating ect… he’s addressing the issue
At my church on sunday, a guest pastor, Mario Murillo said that he attended a meeting with various church leaders about the future of America’s secularism. One of the pastors said that “churches should be socially homogenous unit” to get people back into the churches.
He then took the example of a great evangelist in the 1850’s, I forgot the first name, maybe you guys can help me out, the name was Finney or something like that who told people that if you own slaves you would go to hell.
I think that affirmative action as it was meant to be, providing for equal opportunities for minorities, has been bastardized beyond recognition. The thing is, quotas came into being because the white power structure(corporate and governmental) decided that, if they were being mandated to accept minorities, then they would only put up with a set number. That said, it’s still better to have those quotas in place then go with the notion that 40 or so years of affirmative action/quotas makes up for hundreds of years of white privilege. Whites have had their own affirmative action for years via slavery, jim crow, legacies(in college admissions),nepotism, property ownership and the like for years. I feel no guilt in blacks taking advantage of any opportunity to get their foot in the corporate/university door. As far as whites looking down on you because you may or may not be an affirmative action hire, that’s something they will have to live with. I wouldn’t let what they think affect me at all.
“That being said, I think these preferences, as they exist today as a race-plus factor, have done substantial good for a group of people, and coincided with the expansion of the black middle class, which is a serious plus. On the other hand, I don’t believe you can show a counterbalancing harm being done to white people, at least not on the same scale.”
That’s an interesting point too.
tvd – Please propose what you believe would be unslanted questions. I’m extremely interested in knowing how you’d phrase the questions. Seriously, I’m not setting you up to mock you. I really want to know.
Larry, interesting points, I posted about that months ago. Hate breeds hate. 100 years ago, blacks were complaining that they didn’t have the same government preferences and today it’s reversed.
100 years ago, everything was done to the advantage of whites, like you point out whites had their version of “affirmative action” and preferential treatment. to me the worst was the GI Bill after WWII, and how black vets couldn’t get these same opportunties
You have to remember that it is only less than 45 years ago, that the civil rights act was and that blacks for the first time in American history nearly 200 years later could finally be considered “FREE”.
Other groups of immigrants from Europe and faced hardships came but the fact that these immigrants were whites gave them an advantage over blacks who didn’t come by choice and who still couldn’t get “a piece of the pie”
but again, Paula Zahn addressed this on her show. that Blacks’ racism against whites isn’t the same. one guy said that a woman can say that she hates men, but it doesn’t have the same weight because men are still in power, just like blacks hating whites isn’t the same thing as whites hating blacks because Whites are still in power and that because the oppressed’s “hatred” is justified compared to the “oppressor” who hates for the sake of hating.
I think that discrimination is discrimination, we need to stop looking at it across the boards, there’s no weights, or level, IT IS WHAT IT IS. the more we segregate discrimination, the less we achieve something.
I’m mixed on the issue and probably my post will reflect that.
At the same time, before 1964, the black community seemed to be much stronger, stable, moral, and hardworking than the black community after 1964. So it’s weird but I keep asking the question of where did we go wrong after 1964
It never occurred to me to feel “white guilt” until I went to college and learned what a hotbed of racism this country is. I was taught that racism exists everywhere, and if you deny it, then that means you’re a racist too.
Since graduating and getting out of that atmosphere, I’ve come to realize that everyone–blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, middle easterners–harbors some racism. I’ve come to realize that assuming that your own group is a little superior to everyone else’s isn’t evil, it’s human, part of our survival instincts. It only turns into a bad thing when you use it as an excuse to make negative assumptions or treat others badly.
1) I don’t know that all of these are “lowered-standards” policies–maybe I’m conflating, but most companies have responded to the government mandate by implementing something akin to the NFL’s Rooney Rule, which is in no way a quota and in no way lowers standards. As far as admissions go, I think you can argue the average SAT/GPA scores, but most minority admits fall comfortably within the range of scores acceptable for admission to the institution, and are therefore qualified.
2) That word “necessary” is problematic–to me, very little government policies are “necessary.” The relevant question is a cost/benefit one, not a necessity analysis. Does it hurt more than it helps, or vice versa?
“very little” should be “very few”
I think that the problem with the questions for blacks is that they imply that if you don’t deplore the policies as much as La Shawn, then you must support them. I don’t support them, yet I’m not grinding my teeth over them. Crime, fatherless homes, celebrating ignorance, non-prioritizing education, etc. affect me much more and if these things were remedied, affirmative action would cease to exist. Government policies lowering standards don’t generally lower the standards of any particular group. These policies are the result of already lowered standards and contrary to popular belief, a minority of people are affected by them. People mores like or dislike the idea of their existence as opposed to actually suffering or gaining from them.
I’m skeptical when people on the Internet make claims regarding their experiences with racism, being called racists, losing out due to Affirmative Action, etc. Go to any any mainstream predominantly black message board or blog and ask for racism experiences and it will sound like we are living in the 50s. Certainly the exaggerations are vast and I believe the same exaggerations come from the other side.
I think that the second question should read “If you believe that race preferences are necessary, could you please tell us why?”
I second Mark’s comment!
As a Black man, I hate to see hand-outs and the “great White Hope Liberals” who think they can make a difference with Black America. I’m tired of seeing reports on government hand-outs on TV where everyone in line is Black.
The public school system has failed Black America. The Black family structure has failed Black America. Those two failures have contributed to our downfall. Lack of knowledge and a sometimes blatant disregard of education has made public schools a joke which has become a root of the false sense of entitlement. The lack of a stable family structure has blossomed into welfare, welfare fraud, AFDC, WIC and other handouts. These families and single mothers are not encouraged to get off the programs. There are second and third generationst that have that false sense of entitlement.
This false sense of entitlement of government handouts and lowered standard policies are the modern-day slavery.
I never have (am very self analytical..and never use never..smiling) suffered from these types of thoughts. I did find myself saying I was not prejudging minorities especially blacks, by a different set of standards than I used for whites. However, this only made me realize that I was a very judgmental person in general and that in an absence of minorities, I would probably be doing the same to whites. Is this too convoluted yet?
In a nutshell, I think am still prejudiced but this prejudice gets evoked by peoples lack of critical thinking rather than what the color of their skin is.
I would still be afraid if Shaq O was chasing me!
I appreciate your blog….
This is a hard question because I think that some policies are what helped blacks get into the middle class. For example the high school in the black community I used to live in was closed down. The students have to take public transportation to the rich white high schoo. Because I went to that high school I was able to get a good education and take AP classes and get all the informatin I can about college. (the only things I didnt like was the gay straight alliance) So I dont know I mean some of those policies might have helped. Also haveing two parents in the home. I reaally dont know what my political beliefs are but for the most part I believe in limited government. But I think its obvious that some of those government practices ilke affirmative action have helped some blacks. I think black [people need to make sure the scoools in our communites are giving the kids a good education and the kids will have an equal opportunity and can handle the courseload at a top notch ccollge. If we do this we wont need affirmative action to get a good job so we wont continue in a family cycle of poverty.
Dex asked a great question: “So it’s weird but I keep asking the question of where did we go wrong after 1964.” Now I am answering this question from the outside, and that needs to be taken into consideration. But the Civil Rights movements through the tragic assination of Dr. King was a Christian movement. It was God’s will for the bigotry and sin of the nation to be healed, and Dr. King and others heard God’s call, and they answered.
SNCC, the panthers, the Black Muslim movement, these sprang from other sources, and were committed to other means. History can judge the changes in effectiveness and outcome.
Trey
I don’t feel I suffer from white guilt at all…but I do admit, walking on eggshells around some blacks. I am guessing that is because I have been afraid anything I say will offend or be taken wrongly.
I like anyone of any color who is considerate, intelligent, appreciates this country, etc etc.
Yep, I absolutely loathe the lowered standards expectation for blacks. They aren’t necessary, and all they do is make it valid to believe blacks can never measure up.
The thing is, you expect little, you get little. It’s odd, because this country is over-saturated with the self-esteem movement, yet many people see nothing damaging about asking less of black people. You wonder how a black child is supposed to see herself if she is repeatedly told that she will never compete with her peers unless the bar is substantially lowered for her. Then again, much of the self-esteem movement is based on feeling good without any accomplishment to back it up, so maybe that’s how everything is reconciled.
“What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt?”
Never suffered from “white guilt” and was raised to consider skin color inconsequential.
My ancestors came from Eastern Europe in the very last decade of the 19th Century so white guilt would be kind of stupid for anyone in my family.
Added to that, if someone really studies history, somebody is always enslaving somebody else, somewhere, some time, up to and including the present day. So I would think it to be more productive to concentrate on getting our fellow humans to understand that slavery of any kind, at any time, is just plain WRONG and against the will of He who put us here!
Don’t feel white guilt, as I’ve not done anything to be guilty of, and I don’t think a ‘race’ can be guilty of anything, only individuals can. So if someone wants to point out something I’ve done, then I’ll feel guilty for that. (So to speak.)
I must admit, however, I am getting tired of this whole race division thing. Even the word African-American is silly, since how many of people can actually claim to be within a few generations of Africa?
Here in the south, you rarely find people calling themselves hyphenated Americans. (Italian, German, French, etc.) Once you are a generation or so away, you are an American (or better yet, Southerner).
I think the real path to Dr. King’s dream is to see each person as an individual. Once we group people by race, we create a color coded, not color-blind society.
Like Jen in NC, I didn’t know I had to feel guilty about being white until I went to college.
I suffered from white guilt for a tiny while because of college, but I grew out of it by, believe it or not, listening to Rush Limbaugh and also accessing the fabulous library at the University of Missouri Columbia.
as usual, us hispanics are not even asked what our opinion is. you guys only want us around when you want your house cleaned, your lawn cut, or need some construction work done. but that’s alright, we’ll press on; one day we’ll have a voice. in case you’re wondering, i was being sarcastic.
i always wonder about these ‘racism’, ‘affirmative action’ etc, questions especially when i see ppl like colin powell, condi rice, cynthia mckinney, jocelyn elders, etc having been or presently in positions of power. when the final contestants for the super bowl was decided, a big deal was made about dungy and smith being the first black coaches to ever coach in the super bowl. um…how many blacks have already played (and won) in a super bowl? even before doug williams (the first black qb in a super bowl) played, black players had enjoyed super bowl victories. while some sports team owners may have racist tendencies (marge schott comes to mind) could it be possible that maybe they weren’t qualified for the position? dungy got his opportunity at tampa bay and built them into a formidable opponent. he becomes available and indianapolis signs him b/c of what he did at tampa bay. i don’t know smith’s story and herm edwards, dennis green, art shell, and romeo crennel just need to pick better teams to coach *snubs jets/chiefs, cardinals, raiders, and browns fans*
(for my final rant)now that i think of it, why isn’t the hispanic caucus fighting for my constitutional right to coach an nfl team? my people are tired of being part of the grounds crew. we want a part of the nfl dream. si se puede! si se puede!
The odd thing is that I am southern, but educated in New England. I don’t think I ever suffered from white guilt, or if I did, I got over it at a young age. I saw it in New England with a vengeance, and it was a shocker. Another shocker was the concept that I met for the first time in New England that being on welfare is not shameful, but cleaning houses is. I think I could look my grandmother in the eye and tell her that I was someone’s maid. I do not believe I could tell her I was on welfare.
I briefly dated a leftist. He had black friends and gay friends. I had to unload him pretty quick because I found the idea of a quota system for ones friends to be so disrespectful and patronizing.
1. Do you loath Government-mandated lowered-standards policies like race preferences as much as I do?
No… To be fair, when Ward Connerly is out there “lobbying” for Ballot Initiative’s the target audience that would greatly benefit from his efforts are those who most avidly oppose such things like affirmative action and etc..
So in essence he’s really lobbying to the “Majority” isnt he? The Majority in this country is white. I suspect if black brown or yellow were the majority they’d want a system that allowed for them to vote in laws as well, and not have government step in and do whats right. (that one was kinda easy)
As far as race preference, yes it offends, me but im mindful of those who it benefits. The good’ol boy network in this country (the other taboo topic everyone is afraid to discuss ) is very much alive and well…While there is no doubt in my mind that most companies and organizations will hire based on qualifications and not skin color, there are some who if given the chance wouldnt.
I believe race preference’s are necesary b/c it levels the playing field. In this country the Majority of White Collar/Exec. jobs are held by the majority..Even the “handout” positions as it was labeled only represent what maybe 16 to 17 % of the workforce. This doesn’t mean that i’m advocating for big business to open the door and let anyone just get a job, but at least consider diversifying the now overcrowded majority playing field with people qualified to do the jobs who may not look like the “norm.”
I doubt that many people actually suffer from “white quilt”. To me, this is mostly a myth and a meaningless phrase in social and political debate.
What I do believe is that a major portion of the white populace (generally liberal) practices codependency. The “white savior” is a common theme in society and depends on having someone to save, thus prompting many whites to serve as enablers for black dysfunction.
Questions for black readers (Be honest!):
1) Do you loath government-mandated, lowered-standards policies like race preferences as much as I do?
Yes I do. Mainly because at the time I benefited from race preferences I didn’t even realize it. It was when I first entered college as a freshman. I was specifically recruited simply because I was black, not because I had a 3.5 GPA or that I was on the deans list or that I was class and student body president, not even due to the fact that I was captain of the football team. I know this because the admissions counselor, when asked, didn’t even know these things about me. Other than my GPA, these facts weren’t even in my records. Then what really shocked me was when I was finally told by this counselor and other black recruiters that I was at that school because I was black! I kid you not. Their job was to simply recruit black students, period. They were there for no other reason.
College was tough and in retrospect sometimes I wonder if I should have gone when I did or if I should have stayed out for a while and worked in the real world. It was such a huge deal to everyone that I never really thought about it until afterward. So, from my perspective, AA programs are detrimental because they inadvertently cause people to stop really seeing the world as it really is. It creates this herd-like process of pushing minority students through the “system” without regard to whether they should really be there or not. Or if it even benefits them or not.
thomas, Post #26:
(for my final rant)now that i think of it, why isn’t the hispanic caucus fighting for my constitutional right to coach an nfl team? my people are tired of being part of the grounds crew. we want a part of the nfl dream. si se puede! si se puede!
You do realize that Tom Flores was the starting quarterback for the Raiders from 1960-1966 and later COACHED the Raiders to two Superbowl wins in 1980 and 1983? So the first minority coach to win a Superbowl is Hispanic.
Also, thomas,
Flores’s quarterback in 1980 was Jim Plunkett, who is Mexican American. Thus, the first minority quarterback to win a Superbowl is Hispanic.
shade #31
after doing some quick research, i stand corrected. i had completely forgotten about him. how sad is that, forgetting one of my own people? oh, the shame of it. he’s a half-breed, maybe that’s why i forgot=)) j/k (he’s 1/2 italian as well)
Shade–your codependency term? Thanks. I’ve always wondered what’s a polite term for such behavior. I’ve encountered these types and they’re creepy and destructive. They’re puzzled by black people who aren’t victims. They’re the ones who have trouble wrapping their brains around a black person who didn’t grow up in the ghetto and can use words with more than two syllables. They get upset that they don’t get to play the knight on the white horse so they actually have the audacity to question the blackness of any black person who won’t feed their rescue impulse. They seem to get a high off the idea that white people are the cause of everyone’s troubles, and therefore, only white people can save the day. They’re disgusting.
shade,
(i’m just messing around w/this topic) ok, there’s flores and plunkett. but since then, who else is there? my people were able to experience it for a short time before it was viciously snatched away.
(btw, i wonder if anthony munoz [OL] would feel ignored?=)
White.
I take Martin Luther King’s words to heart. If I indulge in white guilt, I am discounting the “content of my character”. I have paid rent to a Hispanic man and received a paycheck from a Black American and an Iranian Jew. I think that is a humanizing experience. In studying history, I also realize that my ancestors were probably slaves of the serfdom type – not bought and sold like livestock, but part of the farm like the buildings or water rights. When my children were very young, I made a point of not labeling people by race. They weren’t black people or Chinese people or Indians, they were just PEOPLE.
I know that racism is alive and well in the world. Millions of people have to contend with it and overcome it, but my hand-wringing will not help a single individual gain dignity or self-worth.
1) What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt?
Lately, nothing. Back during my college-age flirtation with the mental disorder of liberalism (long since cured), I had much guilt. I joined in the marches for all the wrong reasons, trying to show how ashamed I was of “my” people. I was focused upon the negative, instead of working for the positive goal of eliminating legalized discrimination.
2) If you once suffered from white guilt but now you’re over it, how/why did you get over it?
I grew up. Really. That’s not a flippant answer, but the unvarnished truth. As I came out of the fog and realized what a fraudulent philosophy liberalism is, I lost my corresponding “white guilt” as well. I realized I had nothing to be guilty about.
Recognizing the positive good that can be done by getting involved in civil rights problem solving is a far cry from the negativity of hand-wringing and whimpering as practiced by guilt-ridden white liberals.
No white guilt whatsoever. None. I am a distinct, unique individual, as is every other human being of any color. I have never personally oppressed anyone nor, as far as I can tell, purposely discriminated nor pre-judged anyone, for good or bad, based on color. I am not personally responsible for any outrages or atrocities committed by other white people, especially those who committed the outrages before I was born. I can understand the retroactive disgust at THOSE white people, and I share it, but I have enough other flaws than to add some kind of imaginary racism to my own list of human shortcomings.
I suppose some would label it racism that I feel a sense of alarm and revulsion about certain aspects of present-day black culture, such as hip-hop music and staggering rates of illegitimacy, but I feel the same way about white people who transgress the mores of a civilized society.
When talking of personal responsibility and independence as compared to preferring government handouts, the subject should not be isolated as a race only issue.
Try reading “America Alone” by Mark Steyn.
The dependence on government instead of accepting personal responsibility is wreaking Europe and America is slipping down the slope.
thomas
Jeff Garcia is one of the premier quarterbacks. J.P. Losman is the starting quarterback for The Bills. Tony Gonzalez is the number one tightend in the league. Luis Castillo was a first round draft choice. Marco Rivera is a pro-bowler. The list is pretty long.
Tyrian Purple
I’ve generally considered that to be a more accurate term than “white guilt”. Most people are reasonably individualistic and most don’t feel guilty for the actions of ancestors.
Also, I think that blacks who are put in the spotlight by the mass media are those who likewise have picked up this tendency toward codependency. Otherwise, they would not get the attention that they get. White liberals have the greatest control over the media and rarely give black conservatives any attention as well as blacks in general who don’t enable lower class blacks.
Thus, the black populace is greatly influenced by black, as well as white, enablers which is why middle and upper-class blacks tend strongly to enable the self-destructive behavior of lower-class blacks.
This is why I think that it is absurd when people suggest that blacks vote democrat so that they can keep their government aid. Those blacks who are dependent on government aid tend to fall into that 60% who don’t vote. It is independent, self reliant blacks who vote for the party they see as most enabling for lower class blacks.
White guilt? Probably. I feel no guilt because my great grandparents and beyond owned black slaves.
Apparently they were sufficiently well treated that they would send their children back after emancipation to work for them “to learn white folks ways”. That was then, now is now and I am a part of now. However, if there were no “white guilt” why should I feel especially pleased when a black person gets ahead through hard work, intelligence and integrity? Here I think especially of people like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams and yourself. I don’t have near the same delight when I come across white people who have done the same thing. But maybe it’s just another case of our enjoyment in reading a story where the underdog comes out on top.
Questions for white readers:
(1) One thing I did recently that was based on white guilt was to allow for a black employee to get away with behavior I did not allow others to get away with. That is, I did not comment on his behavior and did not speak to him as I do to others about ethics in the workplace or did not talk to him about how his behavior affected others on the job. Being Christian, I had a tremendous call to say something to him, to set him straight. But 20 plus years of my former liberalism kicked in and I made excuses for his behavior.
(2) I am mostly over any white guilt I may have had (except for the above mentioned case) and the reason for this is Christ. What kind of man am I if I treat someone differently because of their race? I no longer cringe at the way I often abased myself in certain social situations and at the way I made “excuses” for bad behavior or criminal behavior because of someone’s skin color. I feel it is a sin to give the finger to someone in traffic, but I still do it when my anger boils over. But I feel it is an even greater sin to not give the finger to someone because that someone is black. Why, even in my anger, would I differentiate? I know I’m giving a silly example but I’ve often thought about this — why did I treat someone differently, whether I was being kind or being cruel? Because I was a “racialist.” I was reducing a man’s character to his race. I was hamstringing my relations with people by putting blacks on a pedestal and self-censoring my speech in fear of letting what would be an offensive word or two slip and hurt someone’s feelings.
I don’t think that I adequately explained myself in my other posts on the supreme court topic. I posted similar comments at another (majority white) site and people were not as offended.
For the record, I was not trying to stereotype all whites equally. I do believe that blacks nor whites care about the other enough AS A GROUP to insure support for opposite group, one way or the other.
Kendrick, even if you disagree, you don’t have to be nasty about it. I don’t think that I was nasty to you.
Thank you Ms. Barber for the delete.
I never said that I did not have any prejudices, I think we all do on some level. I just think that the goal of affirmative action minded people was to see that QUALIFIED minorities (women and blacks) receive a CHANCE to prove themselves.
Yes, I did have a negative experience with getting admitted into my college due to someone’s prejudice. I know that I deserved to be there but I still think that AA played a role. I was QUALIFIED and I was black, so I probably got in in some part due to AA.
I just don’t see why the people who were offended by my comments have a problem with what I said. I do think that people stereotype and judge based upon perceived lower standards. If I’m not mistaken, even Ms. Barber said that she resented being viewed as lower (I know she feels it is because of AA).
I really just don’t believe that white folks care (one way or the other) to find a way to insure that even qualified blacks get into a school. So HBCU’s will have increases in student attendance.
What is wrong with that? That is all that I was trying to say.
To answer the questions…
1)I don’t agree with LOWER STANDARD anything.
2)I could see where there may have been a legitimate need for a program that set aside positions for blacks. As long as blacks are not being systematically excluded from public universities WHEN THEY QUALIFY. I don’t think that there is a need for it. It just scares me to think that there could be many cases where QUALIFIED blacks are disqualified because of their race.
As I said somewhere else, if Billy Blue Eyes and Leroy apply for the same job and are EQUALLY QUALIFIED, who will most likely get the job. I’d just like to feel that sometimes Leroy will get the chance to prove himself too.
I’m don’t know that it qualifies as ‘white guilt’ but my thinking has changed about black/white relations. During 28 years working for a large company, mostly in a first-line manager level position, during most of that time my immediate manager and also his manager has been Black. (This has involved multiple managers, not just one.) I’ve had the opportunity for many in-depth and candid conversations with my Black managers and co-workers, and have come to understand a bit better the destructive and hurtful consequences of racial discrimination. The mental and emotional hurt and scarring that results from being treated unfairly doesn’t just go away, but can create sensitivity like John described in #3. Being white and male, that thinking may be like imagining what it’s like to be pregnant, but it has allowed me to get beyond the “why don’t they just get over it” kind of thinking.
To whatever extent there continue to be real race-based impediments to education, or any other opportunity, I believe we as a nation need to eliminate them because we need the skills and abilities of everyone to address the challenges that we all face. For many of the reasons mentioned in other comments above I don’t know that racial preferences are the answer; they just perpetuate the problem. Each instance would have to be addressed on its facts to fix it.
I wish I felt more optimistic about our willingness as a nation to seek meaningful change. It’s a heart problem and we don’t seem to do too well in those areas.
“The Majority in this country is white. I suspect if black brown or yellow were the majority they’d want a system that allowed for them to vote in laws as well, and not have government step in and do whats right. (that one was kinda easy)” (eric)
I don’t follow.
That statement doesn’t seem to make any sense.
It was WHITES who instituted AA and turned it into a preference program for blacks and browns. Those who did that, did it because they honestly believed that the vast majority of blacks couldn’t compete on anything close to a level playing field.
They aren’t guilty of devising a system that gave any advantage to themselves, at least not with AA, but one that gave government sanctioned preferences to another racial group.
Do you think “black, brown, or yellow” would’ve devised a system of preferences for a racial minority within their midsts?
No, neither do I.
While this example wasn’t MY white guilt, it was a jaw dropper to behold: While at college, an unavailable girl I was hot for told me about her boyfriend’s roommate. This girl was dating a really nice guy from India (which is why I never seriously pursued her; if he had been a jerk, well, then it would have been open season.)
Anyway, the India dude’s roommate was a whiney liberal white dude who — get this — believed it was his duty/punishment/whatever to room with a “person of color†so he could learn about other people in the world because whites were the “oppressors†and “we†needed to be taken down. I kid you not.
The guy needed a serious intervention.
That incident of white guilt was one of the things that woke me up from my sheep-like liberal comatose state.
Sorry, I just remembered one more. About a decade ago in St. Louis, there was mass protest over contracts doled out by the Missouri Department of Transportation. But when I first heard that there was going to be a protest and a highway shutdown, I am sure I was not alone when my first thought was, “What in the hell are they bitching about now?â€
It turns out that there WAS a legitimate problem. But I felt a little guilt for not caring, but instead being ticked that they were going to shut down the highway. I’ve become so used to the seemingly unending cries of “Racism!” and “Discrimination!” that I’m immune to them.
I remember feeling a fleeting bit of guilt over it, then remembered the old fable of the boy who cried wolf. When you scream racism and discrimination over every blasted thing, it loses its power.
I’ve written and deleted a posting to this subject about 4 times. I have so much to say I don’t even know where to begin but suffice it to say, I have a biracial granddaughter who I love with every breath of my being. I cannot possibly explain to you, though, the trauma our family went through when my daughter announced she was pregnant with a black man’s child. Every destructive emotion a person can have came out of each one of us, everything from anger to deep sorrow to hopelessness to pity to guilt. My husband literally fell to his knees (and it was not to pray) the day he was told.
Fast forward 10 years later and I can assure you that God gave all of us a gift those 10 years ago that enriches our lives every single day of the year. We will never go through those negative feelings described above again because we know better.
White guilt is a destructive emotion. It doesn’t benefit anybody. A sense of entitlement because of race is also destructive. And some day, when we face our maker, we’ll all see that we’re made in the image of the one who created us and that’s all that matters.
1) Do you loath government-mandated, lowered-standards policies like race preferences as much as I do?
I wouldn’t say I loath, but I do think that ‘race’ preferences shopuld be adjusted to address issues of socio-economic standing and be reflective of the unlevel standards of the American educational system.
2) If not, why do you believe race preferences are necessary in America?
I think I answered this question with the above answer. I just wish more white folks would be honest enough to admit that there are still obstacles that need to be overcome in this country with regard to race and not continually gloss over the subject with a bunch of kumbaya BS.
There is something inherently broken in this country when a black man without a criminal record cannot get hired, but a white man with a criminal record can.
1. Yes, I once suffered from a serious bout of white guilt. I had a best friend who was black, and there were certain subjects I avoided because I knew it would cause a catastrophic confrontation that my subdued personality wasn’t equipped to deal with. My friend championed the OJ verdict–I said nothing. She had no grasp on any political issues, and voted straight Democrat ticket (because Republicans are for the “rich whites” I was told) without blinking an eye. I said nothing. I always felt that I avoided these situations because of some underlying racial element. Most black people I knew all felt the same way as my friend, so I didn’t see any use in speaking out. That is just the way “they” were, I thought.
2. One day, I said something. It was when the whole Katrina debacle happened and she was on a “Bush hates black people” trip, while extoling the great wisdom of Kanye West. She flipped out when I said “refugee” in place of “evacuee,” and that was the last straw. I really laid it on the line and let her know that I did not think Bush hated black people and went into a whole spiel about entitlement attitudes, failure of the local and state government, etc. Instead of defending her position in a logical fashion, she lauched into an emotionally-charged tirade and chose to personally attack me, telling me how much I had changed (I guess I was becoming too white). It was on that day that I realized that I shouldn’t feel guilty or sidestep an issue because I don’t want to impress on anyone’s feelings. It is not my fault if people (black or not) cannot break the bondage of close-minded, one-dimensional thinking. My friend and I grew up in the same, middle-class neighborhood, went to the same schools, colleges, etc., but yet she still managed to come away with this “chocolate city” thinking, and it really disappointed me, particularly because we had the same opportunities, yet turned out vastly different. Sometimes I have a passing feeling of sadness because our friendship never fully recovered. But, I know it is nothing for me to feel guilty about. When I read your blog and others like Mychal Massie, Star Parker, Jessie Lee Peterson, etc., I feel encouraged because I know not everyone is stuck in this “groupthink” mentality. I really take issue with those who call educated, right-thinking blacks “Uncle Toms” and accuse ya’ll of “acting white” because you don’t speak ignorant, unintelligible, gangsta slang and are able to think beyond “Democrats good, Republicans bad.”
>>…if Billy Blue Eyes and Leroy apply for the same job and are EQUALLY QUALIFIED, who will most likely get the job.>>
You’re right that there’s a cultural comfort factor that I think is being overlooked. We have a store that supplies lightbulbs to a number of fast food stores in the area. Most have predominantly hispanic staff. Years ago, McDs et al were a common first job for teenagers…what about today? Visualize your typical white non-spanish speaking teen applying for a job among a group of 4-6 Spanish speaking workers who are taking orders in English, but communicate among themselves in Spanish. Who do you think the manager is going to hire? The white kid who doesn’t speak Spanish, or the hispanic kid? Visualize for yourself the working atmosphere where one person is unable to interact with the other workers when there’s the usual back and forth bantering going on. You could get paranoid!
It’s a bit of the same thing – in the past, blacks had a totally different culture…they thought whites were “stuffed shirts”, whites thought blacks were “low class”. Even today, we see this in the language used in the ghetto like rap songs. They’re offensive, imo, though apparently there are plenty who don’t think so. I consider the use of such language ignorant and low class and probably wouldn’t choose such a person to socialize with – even if I worked with them.
So…it really isn’t so much the Blue-Eyes…it’s the cultural thing as much as color, I think.
There’s also the “chip on the shoulder” thing. My son dated a black woman from Jamaica. Intelligent, educated, well spoken – terrific person. (also the only one in her large family with much character, but that’s a different issue!) The difference is that she’s black, but she isn’t “_A_ Black”. Color isn’t a factor because she doesn’t _make_ it a factor.
Just exactly what _is_ racism? My son said I was racist because I used “black” in describing someone. I told him _he_ was racist because he _couldn’t_ use it. Is it racist to be aware of race? Is it racist to say “Blacks don’t score as high as whites on such and such a test.”?
I’m not sure any more just exactly what racism _is_.
I think that “black guilt” is more of prevalent:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=14&click_id=125&art_id=vn20041009113525362C566352
La Shawn
While at work, I did a little research on Ward Connerly..I knew that i’d heard his name before but I wasnt certain where. Is this the same Ward Connerly who the San Fransisco Chronicle outed for taking 1 million in state and government contracts b/c he registered his company as a Minority Owned Business? One of those “perks” Im sure he had no problem cashing in on.
If this is the case, I consider it very hypocritical of him to make such comments.
That was an error on the Chronicle’s part. I e-mailed Connerly a couple of years ago asked him about it. He told me his business never accepted race-based entitlements. – Admin
suek
the question is , if your son dated a white woman, would make comments on “how well spoken she is? “
“What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt?” (LaShawn)
In the late 1960s my Dad was a fireman in the East New York/Brownsville section of Brooklyn. Occasionally I would visit the firehouse he worked in. They were routinely pelted with stones and bottles from the rooftops of houses in the areas they responded to.
As a result, I grew up convinced that blacks hated whites, so I despised them as well, and with a passion. Ironically enough neither my Dad, nor most of the guys he worked with saw it that way, they saw it as kids not knowing the difference between something being reckless and something being dangerous.
It wasn’t until I went to College that I met a fair number of blacks and was surprised that most of those I met weren’t at all like I’d expected them to be.
I’d always presumed that the vast majority of blacks supported things like welfare and quotas and since I saw welfare and the Housing Projects as things that kept blacks consigned to urban reservations, I must admit, I liked that idea.
Quotas didn’t effect me directly, so I didn’t think about them one way or the other at that time, but I supported welfare and public housing, for my own reasons, since I believed “it kept “them” out of places like Staten Island.”
I was most surprised that many of the blacks I met and spoke to, had as Conservative a viewpoint on things like crime, etc as did many of the whites I knew, in fact, in some ways many blacks were even more conservative than most whites.
Further into College, I came across the writings of Professor Walter E Williams and Thomas Sowell and between their views and those offered by the likes of Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises and Jude Wanniski, I began to become far more Libertarian (limited government) and I realized that my innate dislike of and distrust of blacks had led me to support programs that I knew where not in their best interests.
By the time I got on the Fire Department, I’d come to acknowledge that I was wrong to have judged an entire people through a child’s eyes.
By the time I met Chief Julius (the black Battalion Chief who passionately opposed race-based preferences) I strongly opposed many of the policies that I knew inculcated dependancy among the poor (both black & white) and I vehemewntly opposed preferences because, in the FDNY, they always came with lowered standards.
So, I guess I never felt any “white guilt,” though I have changed my overall view of blacks over time.
While I do regret that I ever supported policies because I believed they kept the majority of blacks tethered to housing projects, etc, I don’t feel guilty about having once held those views – they were what they were (a child’s eye view) and I was fortunate to have met many people whose very demeanor and decency challenged my preconceptions about them, just as I was fortunate to have come across the writings of Professor Williams and Dr Sowell, writings that in part changed my outlook on a lot of things.
I now believe that it’s only natural for many people to fear Liberty (personal responsibility) because it’s a hard path and an uncertain one, but it’s also the system that best inculcates individualism and encourages individuals to develop and implement their own talents.
That’s why I now support “work-fare” with mandatory job training and some work for stipend and the Jack Kemp “onwership initiative,” as well as opposing race/gender preferences that are based on the despicable belief that some groups just can’t compete on the same set of standards as everyone else.
When I supported things because I saw them as detrimental to a group I mistrusted, I was viewing things through an eight year old’s eyes. I’m glad I don’t any longer.
White questions:
1. I don’t think I’ve suffered from white guilt, but sometimes I get ticked off when someone seems to assume I should, just because I’m white. All of my ancestors came here after the Civil War, so slavery is not in my family history. I’m supposed to feel guilty why…?
What I do suffer from is white caution. I tend to edit my words before I say them when I’m around blacks I don’t know very well, because I can never be sure I won’t say something innocuous to me but offensive to them (similar to the time at work when we had struggled to find a solution to an IT problem, and I sent out a memo to our group announcing we had the “final solution”–my boss was Jewish and asked me to use different words in the future).
2. N/A
1) What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt? Absolutely nothing…
2) If you once suffered from white guilt but now you’re over it, how/why did you get over it? Never had it
And I really think that “White Guilt” is a libber cop-out, much akin to the same group that wants ’slave reparations’…
That was an error on the Chronicle’s part. I e-mailed Connerly a couple of years ago asked him about it. He told me his business never accepted race-based entitlements. – Admin
But didn’t he admit that, as a result of new regulations, he certified his company as a minority-owned business in order to keep previous contracts?
I don’t know anything about that. If you’ve got a link to a source verifying that’s what happened, let’s see it. Otherwise, I consider it libelous and will respond accordingly. – Admin
I’m not sure I’ve really suffered from “white guilt”, since I grew up in mainly military communities where things seem to be more based on merit. However, when in a public situation, I may temper my words – with all the PC crap going on, I don’t need to be accused of being a racist – being a new teacher, that could affect my ability to find the kind of employment I want.
2)
And I really think that “White Guilt†is a libber cop-out
Wouldn’t it be more of a conservative cop-out since it seems to be a term tossed around mostly by conservatives and I doubt that many liberals would claim to have white guilt?
He concedes that in a few cases new laws and regulations have forced him to certify his company as a minority-owned enterprise in order to keep previous contracts with public agencies.
Charles Imbrecht, chairman of California’s Energy Commission, which is one of Connerly’s clients, agrees that the CCRI leader is being wrongly accused. “Mr. Connerly’s self-certification as a minority business enterprise simply means that his firm can meet the requirement that 15 percent of the funds … do not need to be directed to a separate certified minority firm,” says Imbrecht. “The suggestion that he or his company has somehow benefited on the basis of race is wrong.”
Link
Great Question LaShawn….I am white and I will answer to that effect…
1)I rather doubt I have succumbed to this foolish behavior in years having been released from this thinking for years….I am pretty much the opposite of this thinking…I mean…I groan at upcoming February because of Black History Month….I am thinking to myself…..here comes Whitey hating and guilt month…….I used to really embrace this month…I can’t any longer ………
2 I guess my genesis from release of this guilt would have began when I became a Christian 16 years ago and thus was instilled in me a love for the Truth…in all areas……..BUT it took a mentor to come all side of me to show me the darkness of Liberalism (and white guilt is under that rubric) and slowly the veil was lifted from my eyes……….Also, one cannot underestimate the effect the Free press of the internet has had……..ALL those great Black Writers that have helped me…….Larry Elder really comes to mind….Star Parker……Thomas Sowell…….Ward Connerly….so so many more…your website LaShawn only serves to reinforce the truth agaisnt White Guilt….
Thanks
This is an example of why I like your blog, La Shawn – you’re good at making me think.
1. I didn’t think I suffered from “white guilt”, and I’m still not sure that I do. I do tend to feel pleased when I see a black or other minority ethnic person doing a job which is “traditionally white”. I suspect that that’s a little bit patronising, really.
I grew up in rural England, where all the locals were white, but went to boarding school with a number of foreigners (lots of Hong Kong Chinese, a few Africans). I don’t remember having any kind of racial conciousness at all – the fact that one of the boys in my class had black skin was no more or less remarkable then the fact that one had red hair – it was just the way things were. I must have learned that a thing such as racism existed from the TV – I think it wasn’t until I went to University that I first met (at least to talk to) a British person with black or brown skin.
1. I wait tables on the weekends at a chain restaurant in a decent part of Los Angeles. I work seven days a week to provide myself what is a pretty low quality of life; I have to work extra hard just for that. I work during the week monday thru friday and then fri, sat, sun I’m a server. I wait on Black folks quite a bit, some of them are ok, but I hate to say that most of them are awful. They run you ragged for whatever they want, often times without a please or thank you and then sure enough there’s a 5% tip if anything at all. My heart just sinks whenever I see them sit down in my section because I know I just lost money. Because of the percentage of our sales that we have to tip out, we actually end up paying for people to eat there when we get stiffed or less than 5% tip. I am a great server; I run hard because I know that my tips should be determined that way, but most Blacks I imagine come already thinking they owe you nothing. Sure enough, though my white guilt which rears its ugly head, has me running harder for that table than my other White, Asian or Hispanic tables because for the most part I know I will get a gratuity regardless from those folks. I dont want to offend the Black table by making it seem that I am being discriminatory so I am extra attentive to them. Most times they are all on their sidekicks/cell phones and dont even look up at me. Its actually difficult to get their order sometimes b/c they look away or speak at a volume that they want, not one that you can hear. I deal with it every weekend of my life and it is just tearing me apart. I feel very sad, b/c I’ve never wanted to hate anyone, but I cant help but hate Black people more and more with each passing weekend because of their disregard for me. I had 2 Black tables on Sunday night. The two checks combined totalled about $190 dollars…not a cent. In fact the one guy wrote on the check left in the check presenter “Jesus paid for it all” — I dunno. Can someone who is a believer, like I am be so cruel. A lot of the other guilty white/Asian and Hispanic waiters I work with make excuses sometimes that its a class thing and they just dont know. I dont agree. If they were foreign I would understand; they’re Americans, they know better. They are just being greedy and rude and I’m sick of dealing with it. I think it is actually making me physically sick, b/c I get so worked up and angry about it. I know that God forbid I ever actually mentioned it publicly and spoke the truth, I would be sued and just verbally shredded, but yet I am the one who gets screwed over and over. I feel horrible that I am being so honest, but I’ve never truly had an opportunity to get that out. Thanks LaShawn.
>>…the question is , if your son dated a white woman, would make comments on “how well spoken she is? “>>
In this day and age??? You bet!! Her vocabulary, her style, her wit – better than my son’s! I’m an “verbal snob”…I appreciate correct usage. I have one son who says “a word means whatever I mean it to mean” and “grammar is arbitrary”. Imo, not if you want to be able to communicate between two people with any degree of accuracy! Do you know how hard it is to get concepts across? and then add to that a limited vocabulary or using words to mean whatever you want them to?
White, black or green – I appreciate a well-spoken person. We won’t get into the politics of what the well-spoken person says…at least not at the moment!
(White respondent)
1) Have I ever experienced white guilt?
What an excellent question. Thank you, La Shawn, both for having the courage — and challenging us to have the courage — to tackle touchy questions, and for running a blog that does so for the most part very respectfully.
I pretty much have my hands full dealing with stuff for which I *am* guilty (impatience, sloth, etc) without taking on bogus ones. But I can think of three recent instances where race-consciousness definitely was front and center.
A few years ago, I found out that a black woman who used to help my mom around the house had died. Her name was Ida. She worked for our family at a very particular historical moment in the late 1960s/early 1970s. When she came to work for us, domestic work was basically all that was open to black women. Then policies were changed, and Ida got a secretarial job with the city government.
But she was a big part of my life. My mother had her hands full with an alcoholic husband, five children under the age of 8, a big house, and such a serious issue with depression (go figure!)that she literally would not get out of bed some days. Our childhood was really pretty chaotic, and Ida was a source of comfort and dependability to a child who was scared and anxious and lonely a lot of the time.
When I found out Ida had died, I wanted to write to her son, just to express my condolences and tell him what his mother had meant to me. But I definitely hesitated. I wondered if it would hurt or offend him to be reminded that his mother had worked as a domestic (never mind that my Irish grandmother had done the same thing) or that I might appear to be condescending to Ida’s memory, or to him — a Princeton law grad and now mayor of our little town — reminding him of “his place.”
Ultimately, I decided that decency demanded that I acknowledge his loss, and how much his mother had meant to me. I prayed to God to make my words come out right. When I saw him two years later at a town function, for the first time since we were both children, he embraced me.
The second recent episode of race-consciousness came right after September 11, at the National Day of Prayer that was held a few days later. I went to a church in the neighborhood of my office building and just slipped into one of the few empty seats I could find. As the prayers started, the officiant asked for salvation for the souls of those killed, healing for their families, and so forth. Then he threw in something about “and healing for all those who have suffered the sting of racism.”
And I though, Oh, Please. Must EVERYTHING, EVEN THIS be made to be about racism?
Then the black woman next to me started sobbing. It was an emotional day, obviously, but it wasn’t until that prayer was offered that her heart seemed to break. I just offered my hand, and she took it, and we held hands for most of the rest of the service without saying a word. But in a flash, I felt my irritation drain completely away, and in its place just flowed: acceptance. I do not know what this woman suffered, but I do know she was suffering. And I just felt strongly called in that moment to try to comfort, not to analyze, this sister in Christ. And I did feel guilt for my earlier irritation. Though again, this could be personal guilt, for my personal tendency towards impatience and conclusion-jumping, more than “white guilt.”
Finally, I am married to a black man (a Haitian, as it happens, so like most of his countrymen he actually has quite the complicated pedigree, but his skin at any rate is black). Last year we were in New York for a romantic weekend before he had to fly out to Brussels on business. At the end of the weekend, we were standing in front of the Duane Reade on Broadway and 62nd, prolonging our goodbyes as we had to take cabs in opposite directions (me to Penn Station, he to the airport).
We stood on the sidewalk talking for a while, and I noticed a black woman watching us, who appeared to be waiting for something. Finally, we really, really REALLY had to get in the cabs, and though we are not usually the great ones for public displays of affection, we kissed a long time; it was going to be two weeks apart.
As I crossed the street to get my cab, I saw the black woman who had been watching us follow me with her eyes, and the look on her face was pure hatred. (It was not my imagination; he noticed it too, and remarked on it two weeks later.) I think I can understand her pain. There are so few eligible black men compared to black women in this country. And I am not immune. After three miscarriages, I still struggle to accept that it is not God’s plan for me to have a child with my husband. And I mean I struggle. I see pregnant women, or moms with young children, and I wish I could just be happy for their joy, but sometimes the pain is unbearable.
2) If I ever did have white guilt, how did I get over it?
Again, I don’t know if any of what I have felt: hesitation to write to Ida’s son, shame at my annoyance at the post-9/11 service, defensiveness at my marriage to a black man — is really “guilt.”
I think “white guilt” is a form of laziness, actually. It is so much less effort to make a big display of self-flagellation, and throw some money (other people’s money) around than to really engage with people. It is so much less effort than to follow Christ, in whom there is no Jew or Greek, no black or white, no free of slave.
Apologies for what turned into a long post.
Lashawn,
I respectfully disagree with Mr. Connerly..He can be defended, but the bottom line is He chose to register his firm with that title. Concession or not its hypocritical. It totally speaks against his cause…Shade tks for the link…
It seems to me if I’m reading your blog and all the post correctly that the problem is still black and white..The way i understood the affirmative action plan is that it was for ALL minorities. It just goes to show that we as people still have issues when it comes toblack and white.
Had it not been for the comments posted by Thomas you wouldnt even have heard a hispanic voice in the matter.
And in response to JMK, who posted this
Do you think “black, brown, or yellow†would’ve devised a system of preferences for a racial minority within their midsts?
No, neither do I
What do you mean by that?? Is there a certain race that’s qualified to make decisions that may be tough and others would simply take advantage of the what they have and do nothing? Thats sure sounds like what youre implying..But thats ok, I’m sure you didnt mean it that way….
It’s very clear what I meant, Eric.
I suggest re-reading it again if you’re really unsure.
AA was a program devised by whites (the overwhelming majority of Americans, over 70%, fall into that group) that has become a preferential policy that gives advantage to other races in both College admissions and employment.
I’ll ask it again, Do you think a “black, brown or yellow” (your description of the races) would devise a program that would give preferential treatment to another group (whites for instance)?
As I said…neither do I.
Race/gender preferences are discriminatory and the government has no Constitutional authority to discriminate either in favor or against any racial group.
Before AA the federal government never did.
There’s absolutely no moral or ethical grounds upon which race/gender preferences can be defended.
That’s the unenviable position that defenders of race/gender preferences find themselves in.
1) Do you loath government-mandated, lowered-standards policies like race preferences as much as I do?
Re-write as: 1) Do you loath affirmative action as much as I do?
Answer: No. In fact, the way you put it is a false characterization of affirmative action. The old AT&T, old Baby Bells, Bell Labs, IBM, DuPont, Allstate, etc, are examples of affirmative action policies. So are the companies that provided work/study opportunities to Florida A&M business students.
When I went on a campus visit to UVa, we dropped by the admissions office. A woman looked at the application on file and came out smiling. She said she could type up the admittance letter on the spot if they could get the application fee. Some how that had gotten lost or was not mailed with the application.
When the RA gave me my schedule, I compared it to other engineering students and realized my course load was too easy. UVa claimed students from Baltimore didn’t do well at the school so I was in a “transitition program” which was actually a semsester remedial program. Had I attended VaTech, RIT, Pitt School of Engineering, Renseler, or any school in the Univ. of Maryland system, I would have gone in as a sophomore. Instead, UVa wanted me to take a step back.
I took a placement test that was designed to show were I “lacked skills.” I finished in about 1/2 hour. I was the first to finish. The proctor asked how I did. (I was already known because I made a fuss about being placed in the transition program). I told her that I got all of it right. It turned out I missed 1 question. I placed out and enrolled in the right classes.
I graduated for 4 years even though I was an athelete.
I was told I got in with the benefit of affirmative action because I was Black. That’s fine by me. My tests were scored the same as everyone else’s. In fact, I NEVER heard of “grading on the curve” before college. Additionally, my wife, a Howard Univ. grad, told me that in Howard’s school of business, there was no curve.
My first out of college job I was aided by affirmative action. Again, cool with me. I gained experience and used it as a stepping stone.
BTW, CEO claims that UVa shows preference for Blacks and calls it unfair. Meanwhile, UVa’s Black graduation rate is statistically the same as whites.
2) If not, why do you believe race preferences are necessary in America?
My mother and sisters were maids for awhile. My mother finished her working career as a nurse. She wasn’t allowed to “move up” in her field until the 70s. Before that, she helped train white women who later were above her. When she retired, her social security benefits and retirement benefits were based on her salary. Her salary was stunted by legal discrimination. She still is “feeling” the affects. As I help her now, I’m “paying” for the past discrimination against her.
If you want to “fix” it, get rid of AA for white women.
AA was a program devised by whites (the overwhelming majority of Americans, over 70%, fall into that group) that has become a preferential policy that gives advantage to other races in both College admissions and employment.
It was devised by a Black Republican in the Nixon administration.
It was bastardized by white politicians in congress, Southern Dems if I remember correctly, to include white women to make it “easier” to pass.
Hi LaShawn,
I have never had any type of white guilt since I didn’t own a business or anything. I grew up with Black people, went to school and had friends. I don’t remember any racial probs when I was in high school. That was over 22 yrs ago though. They were always held to the same standards as whites in public schools. I never had a problem with them.
About 3 1/2 yrs ago, I had a dream of Jesus Christ teaching me how to pray. I was just a little girl in this dream. About 30 minutes later, I suffered a heart attack which should have been fatal. Jesus intervened on my behalf and kept me alive.
There are things in the Bible that people need to understand, especially Christians. Jesus Christ did not Judge people by their flesh. He came to save the world so that ALL people would believe in him and have everlasting life. When is everyone going to wake up and realize that our skin color is only “flesh”. The flesh profits nothing, it’s our spirit that gives life. John 6:63 He will judge us all by what’s in our hearts and minds. All people of all races will have the same standards with the Lord God almighty. John 14:21-24
The Lord God will not discriminate against anyone who does his will and keeps his commandments. He was obedient unto death on that cross so that anyone who called upon him would be saved and their sins forgiven. See James 2:1-13
I have also come to a full understanding of what James 3:1-18 is too.
Annie, I enjoyed your post. And I agree with what you say about the laziness of white guilt. I’ve been turning over in my mind some things the preacher said last Sunday that ticked me off, and wondering exactly why, and I think what you said puts in the last piece of the puzzle for me.
Here is a good assessment of what “white guilt” really is:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/070102_obamania.htm
It’s important to understand, however, that White Guilt is very different from, say, Catholic Guilt, which consists of straightforward feelings of personal moral failure.
In comparison, I don’t recall ever meeting any white person who personally felt guilty for the troubles of African-Americans. But I’ve known many whites who want to loudly blame other whites for black difficulties.
Some whites at least heap guilt upon their own ancestors, but many who publicly proclaim the reality of White Guilt aren’t averse to noting that their own forefathers arrived at Ellis Island long after slavery was over.
In other words, White Guilt is just another ploy in the Great American White Status Struggle. Minorities are merely props for [whites] asserting moral superiority over other whites.
I don’t believe in white guilt. I think the people that have it are twisted in some unholy fashion. It’s not healthy.
When I was 17 and in the military all of my mentor’s were young black non coms. I was in awe of them and their professionlism. They were 20-30 years old, but man they had their stuff together. There was one bad apple that hated for for some unknown reason, and one of them was from Chicago and I couldn’t understand him the first time he spoke, but we became good friends.
Once I left the military that type of person seemed to disapear out of my life to be replaced by affirminative action babies.
One can tell the difference between the two sets of people. The military mentors I would trust them to operate on me 90 percent of the time, the affirminative action babies maybe 30 percent. There is something about affirminative actions that even the people benefiting from it doubt themselves. It’s not a recipe for success. Or maybe it has had it’s hayday and done the job it was supposed to do.
I think anyone seriously religious today and practicing would not see race in people but would see God. Variety is good. It keeps life interesting. It is better to put God before race. Sure there are some nasty white people out there, a lot of ignorant white people. How do you evangelize to these people that someone different is kind and good and worthy of respect, trade, and thanks? Well you have to shake their hand to start. And do it with an open heart.
The diversity camp of “people of color” like the Duke 88 need a different type of caring. Probably they need a majority of people to show them that they are wrong living in their isolated race towers. They need their towers to come down. They need to be pulled out of their dark caves so they can begin anew in a healthier life.
“In other words, White Guilt is just another ploy in the Great American White Status Struggle. Minorities are merely props for [whites] asserting moral superiority over other whites.”
There is a LOT of truth to that, imo. Most white proponents of ‘white guilt’ have a definite smuggness about it, and display no feelings of guilt on their own part. Have any of you ever seen video of those college orientation diversity classes so many colleges require of incoming freshmen nowadays?
But that’s not all there is to it. It also gives them a heck of a lot of power over the black population.
Shameless panderers and manipulators, personified by the likes of Teddy Kennedy, have used white guilt for decades to advance a political agenda that has nothing to do with promoting equal rights, but everything to do with collectivism, big government, and power.
White Guilt is just another ploy in the Great American White Status Struggle. Minorities are merely props for [whites] asserting moral superiority over other whites. – Shade
Once again, we hear the oft repeated “victimology template in which blacks are merely pawns. Quite frankly, I give blacks more credit than that and think that most who engage in white guilt do so freely, with full knowledge, and for their own purposes.
Fostering white guilt is actually more diverse than just about any other activity and is the ploy of whites AND blacks AND browns. One group employs it to feel superior and to be a part of the industry which it spawns. Other groups do it to have power and to be a part of the industry which it spawns.
1) What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt?
I grew up in a very much white area, and I don’t think I even met a black person until college (though that could be my bad memory from distant events). I was attending a very highly thought of college with high standards all around, so I didn’t even consider double standards a possibility. As a result, in my first job, where I had a diverse work population, I would like to think I was fair to all, since I had never encountered a double standard before. If I cracked down on someone, it was for what that person did, rather than any other reason. Perhaps I was just lucky (and naive). Some twenty five years later, I am in a technical field, and again, I deal with people from many backgrounds. However, you don’t survive in my field unless you are good, so I do not deal with double standards no, either. To make a long story short (too late!), I don’t think I’ve ever suffered from white guilt, at least not consciously.
LaShawn – keep up the good work!
1) What have you done or thought lately that appears to be based on white guilt?
Not a thing. I’ve been over that for some time.
2) If you once suffered from white guilt but now you’re over it, how/why did you get over it?
When I was young, I watched Mandingo and Drum and was somewhat ashamed to be white. Then I started that rarest of activities – thinking – and got over it. My revelation was “Why should I feel guilty for what other white people have done? I’ve never owned a slave, nor would I. I’ve never treated someone badly because of their race, nor would I.”
The other thought that occurred to me was that being born white wasn’t a choice I made and that I should only feel guilt over actions that I control.
Cute story about that, too. A black student at my high school accosted me one day in the hall and demanded I pay for his lunch. When I asked him why I should pay for his lunch, he said I owed him for slavery. I looked at him and said, “You’re right. I should have chosen to be born black instead of choosing to be born white.” He looked stunned like I had hit him, but much to his credit, he saw where I was coming from and realized the stupidity of his hatred. We actually became friends after that.
Once again, we hear the oft repeated “victimology template in which blacks are merely pawns. Quite frankly, I give blacks more credit than that and think that most who engage in white guilt do so freely, with full knowledge, and for their own purposes.-Jan
Actually, “white guilt” is a victimology template on the part of whites. When you assert, as you do above, that blacks engage in white guilt (which I don’t believe), you are in essence saying that blacks are victimizing whites by unloading a guilt trip on them so powerful that it negatively affects their thinking and actions. That’s white victimology. Do you give whites so little credit by implying that they cannot base their racial views on logic and reasoning?
If “white guilt” truly exists to any significant level (which I doubt), it is not the fault of blacks. Those whites who engage in it “do so freely, with full knowledge, and for their own purposes.”
1) Do you loath government-mandated, lowered-standards policies like race preferences as much as I do?
No, because it is the people who implement them that I have a problem with, not the law itself. And to be honest, I really dont care how someone gets into college or gets a job or if their standards are high or not.
2) If not, why do you believe race preferences are necessary in America?
I dont think by saying no to the first question, I am somehow saying that I feel they are necessary. All these so called laws can be used by whites, asians, and any other ethnic group besides blacks, so I dont see why race preferences always have to be centered around black folks. We are not the only ethnic group in America that could use those laws to our benefit.
Elizabeth S.,
As a (white) New Orleans resident who had 8 feet of water in her home, can safely say refugee is an acceptable term for a person who suddenly is homeless and unable to return home because it is too dangerous. This is just a thought, but these people who have time to bicker over semantics, were nowhere to be found when my husband and I (not the government) were gutting my house. I suspect that they were tending to the important business of distinguishing between evacuee and refugee. For the record I was both.
1) I don’t really know what white guilt is. I feel sympathy for everyone who’s been discriminated against for reasons beyond their control. The horrors of the past are inescapable, but I can’t feel actual guilt for that, because I didn’t do anything. I do believe that we should do what we can to help every person achieve their potential, but I just can’t see how lowered standards achieve that, and I consider it to be a personal obligation as a Christian – it’s not the government’s place to force people to help each other.
2) I do try to watch my language around everyone, because I don’t want to accidentally hurt anyone. I’ve been called a dago enough times by people with whom I had no personal relationship that I can just shrug it off and not care. However, if someone close to me made similar comments, implying that ancestry has ANY relevance to the kind of person you are, it would sting, and because I know that, I try to be careful. Certain phrases have different meanings to different people. It’s just a matter of courtesy.
And on to AA:
If there weren’t in-person interviews, I think the simplest solution to the whole AA problem and any perceived need for such programs would be to eliminate the “race” box you see on every test and every application you take. That way, everyone would be judged by the same standards, and the possible racism or preconceptions of the reviewer could not come into play.
to Stella:
Did the 17th St. Canal get you? That’s what got me.
Post-Katrina, my entire family was displaced for a time, and we referred to ourselves as refugees. First, we evacuated. Next, we sought refuge from the storm and its aftermath. Last, we returned and rebuilt (with no governmental assistance beyond providing us electricity, gas, and water to hook up to, and a hell of a lot of red tape to wade through).
We were in Mid City, so we got it from both sides. There has got to be a better way to learn to live your life without fear…..:-)
I have a question for LaShawn and everyone:
why are conservatives always the ones labelled as racist? Is it (only) because of the affirmative-action issue, or is there something else as well?
As individuals, I’m sure there are as many racists in the democrat party as in the republican, yet it’s always republicans who are painted as the racists. Why?
La Shawn:
The arrogance of UC’s disdain for prop 209 and their dumbing down of the entire State higher education system indicates that the Democratic Party has done to higher education in CA what they have done to primary and secondary education nationwide – they have generated a new generation of semi literate idiots who will blindly vote Democratic.
In the USA, UK, and Australia and elsewhere employers are saying the same – they can’t find enough QUALIFIED college graduates.
I see lots of comments saying that quotas are OK, and that they aren’t harming anyone.
If they’re OK, why aren’t the NFL and NBA putting in set-asides for us differently athletically-abled, color-challenged athletes?
The deeper harm that comes of this, and I’ll be charitable and assume you haven’t thought it through, is that you can’t at once say that racism is evil while practicing overt racism.
I R A Darth Aggie
This article was discussed in an earlier thread:
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0007,hsiao,12566,3.html
Okay, I know many of the pro-affirmative-action people who post on this site say you don’t care what people think about you. But I just have to question whether or not you care about this – I have a quote here from Senator Joseph Biden (D) and I think his attitude is typical of those white liberals who promote ‘white-guilt’ and AA.
Sen. Biden (talking about Obama): ““I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,†he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.â€
Yeah. Imagine THAT! A black who is kinda bright AND can talk AND he even BATHES!
This is the view you are enabling.
Here is the link to Sen. Biden’s interview:
http://www.observer.com/20070205/20070205_Jason_Horowitz_pageone_newsstory1.html
Stacey,
Irregardless the political party, those comments are wrong. Whenever I see comments like that I think the same way you think. It just goes to show you no matter what side of the line youre on, you can say things that aren’t very smart, and should not be tolerated.
Eric,
Yes but my point is that the only mistake Biden made is making his views known so public ally. His ATTITUDE is not a case of momentary stupidity.
In my experience, this is how these guys really think. If you listen to them for any length of time, you will hear it.
Biden was using the interview to attack other potential nominees, not support them. It’s sour grapes over not (likely) being the Dem nominee. He’s nasty to all of the other nominees, as well.
As for his attitude being typical, that conclusion is just speculation on your part. Prove it’s typical.
TVD,
Prove it is not.
So, Biden, on the DAY he throws his hat in the ring, is already bitter that he may not be the nominiee. And this excuses what you say is an attack on Barrack except the parts where it is a compliment because calling him the first ‘bright’ African American was the compliment part of his attack. Right?
Please point to where I say “excuses.” It’s a jerk comment that has absolutely zilch to do with affirmative action or any white liberal besides Joe Biden.
I’ll just watch as you all take a trip up Mt. Molehill…
White Anglo Saxon Protestant!
Have I ever felt guilt…? Why?
I never discriminate, pre-judge nor stereo-type. My analysis and opinions of any human being (or group of human beings) are largely and completely based on facts.
Allow me to be open and honest here. There are many obvious “truths” that many White Americans are “afraid” to openly admit concerning most Black Americans. Lashawn’s recent essay (Florida’s Lower IQ Scheme Doomed To Fail) reference’s Charles Murray’s “The Bell Curve” that clearly and factually points out the distinct differences in measured IQ. Like it or not the facts show that Black Americans have an average lower IQ about one standard deviation, or 15 points less than Whites, whereas Asian’s measured higher than Whites.
With that being said, it does “no-one” any good if standards are lowered to suit one groups inabilities. Look at the average inner-city public school. Look at the average urban area!Program after program and billions of tax payer dollars have not improved the situation by one iota.
This may sound or appear a bit harsh, but in order to save our great society we must allow those who wish not to improve themselves, their children, families or their futures to “fend” for themselves. And if the need arise’s, simply expand the prison-industrial complex.
60. And I really think that “White Guilt†is a libber cop-out
Wouldn’t it be more of a conservative cop-out since it seems to be a term tossed around mostly by conservatives and I doubt that many liberals would claim to have white guilt?
Comment by Shade — 01.30.07 @ 4:28 pm
—————
Well, it’s a ‘cop-out’, no matter WHO uses it… I have found that the ones screaming racism the loudest are usually the biggest racist themselves, and are trying their best to make others feel the guilt they think they ’should’ feel…
I know we;ll never have a guilt free or color blind society, but we should, and race based empowerment shouldn’t exist, for ANY race, but it does..
When you assert, as you do above, that blacks engage in white guilt (which I don’t believe), you are in essence saying that blacks are victimizing whites by unloading a guilt trip on them so powerful that it negatively affects their thinking and actions.
Perhaps it would have been more correct to say that I think that there are blacks who engage in the “white guilt” industry which has proven quite lucrative on many levels.
When you assert, as you do above, that blacks engage in white guilt (which I don’t believe), you are in essence saying that blacks are victimizing whites by unloading a guilt trip on them so powerful that it negatively affects their thinking and actions. – Shade
Perhaps it would have been more correct to say that I think that there are blacks who engage in the “white guilt†industry which has proven quite lucrative on many levels.
“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,†…Biden
As much as I do not like Biden, it appears to me that he meant; “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American [to run for President][and] who is [an] articulate [guy] and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,â€
Essentially, it does not appear to me that he was saying that Obama was the first black guy in public office to have those qualities, but rather that he was the first black guy to run for President and to top it off, he also had these positive characteristics .
Well, the answer to the first question is “no, I don’t suffer from white guilt” because for one thing, I hate the term “white guilt”–people who have actually done something wrong (like own slaves or belong to the KKK, for instance) suffer GUILT. However, I do feel SHAME (big difference) for the way minorities have historically been treated by “whites” (another term I hate, but that’s a whole ‘nother topic), as anyone with a heart or a conscience would. Guilt is what happens if I personally do something wrong, but shame is what happens when I see or acknowledge that something wrong is being done by a group with whom I’m associated. At least that’s how I see it. And yes, though a lot of white people refuse to admit it, racism is still pervasive in this country. Yeah, every ethnic/racial group has racists, but because of history and sheer numbers, white racism is typically what makes the front page. That’s just the way it is. I can’t change the past, but I can do what I can personally to show respect for people of other races. I try to respect everyone regardless of race but if I’m more aware of how I treat people of other races it’s because I’m ashamed of the white racism I see and hear all the time and I want to show people that “we’re not all like that.” I don’t consider that “white guilt”, I consider it the right thing to do. Our country is still so severely divided by race that I truly believe the only way past it is for individuals to acknowledge its existence (quit downplaying it, iow, like so many people I know do) and to reach out to other people so we can get to know each other as individuals, and not just as part of some larger group of stereotypes. I often wish some tv bigwig would come up with a cultural exchange type reality show, kinda like “Trading Spouses” except for the families would have to be of different races or ethnicities. Would be an eye-opener, I think.
As for affirmative action, I take a pretty centrist view on that–I can see the pros and cons of such a thing but in general I’m of the belief that the key to helping anyone improve their situation in life is to see that they get an education. However they get there is fine with me, since once they are there it is up to them to do the work they have to do to stay there. I don’t have a problem with it, really, since to be honest if it weren’t for age-preferences (regarding financial aid) I wouldn’t be able to be a 34 year old college freshman going to school full time and working for my own education. I don’t feel bad at all, in fact, I’m grateful for the help I got to get to school, but now that I’m here, I am the one who has to bust my butt studying to STAY here, and that is my responsibility alone. There are enough examples of good and bad results from AA to say that maybe it doesn’t work all the time but until the primary education system is as good in one place as any other I think we need stuff like this to help people out. I don’t consider myself patronizing by thinking this way because I don’t consider any other races to be any less intelligent than mine, but if you look at the test results of America’s students, something is going on (or not going on)in our schools and sticking our heads in the sand by downplaying it or ignoring it (for fear of being called racist) isn’t going to help matters. AA might be a flawed program but doing nothing to help the situation is worse. I think it will take several generations more before equal opportunity means exactly that, so until then I think AA might be the best we’ve got, at least as far as government responsibility to its citizens goes. Personal responsibility is another thing entirely, but I guess that goes along with my “help me get there, then it’s up to me” philosophy. Sorry for the long post but I’m not really a “10 words or less” kinda girl.
Essentially, it does not appear to me that he was saying that Obama was the first black guy in public office to have those qualities, but rather that he was the first black guy to run for President and to top it off, he also had these positive characteristics.
The problem is that Obama is not even close to being the first black person to run for president. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Alan Keys and Shirley Chisholm have all run for president.
Can someone please explain to me why everyone hates race based preferences but not sex based preferences. What is the difference.
Also, why are the white people who have posted about how they view blacks comfortable remaining in their assumptions that if black people got where they got because of affirmative action, somehow they did not deserve it? What if they had the grades, qualifications etc.?
While I don’t want to see anyone discriminated against, my only fear is that if AA goes away, will companies also lose their “reason” to hire blacks? Or even women in some cases? There are times when a black person could be more qualified than someone white.
Also, will companies and colleges start to feel reverse white guilt and start hiring white men more because they are sorry that white men were discriminated against because of AA?
I think that it is not honest (listen to the tone of some of the posts) to think that that after only @50 years of equal rights for all, we are really completely there.
I would be less unsure if people really did look at others for their character but the reality is that we all are generally more predisposed to judge based on appearance (race) first then go back and say so and so is not so bad for a (fill in race) person. That is my fear with the loss of programs that attempt to ensure equality.
Again, if AA helped me get in because I was recognized as black is but I qualify, is that as bad as if I get in only because I am black but I don’t meet the standard?
Can someone please explain to me why everyone hates race based preferences but not sex based preferences. What is the difference.
It’s the same difference between people hating welfare because it is Blacks who get it vs. people having no problem with farmers getting subsidies to not grow food, poor out good milk, prop up the costs of raw sugar, all of which increases the price of food for ALL people, etc.
I note with interest
That 1/4th of black racial preference spots in college now go to black immigrants who arrived in America after 1965, 100 years after slavery and voluntarily. That 1/3rd of black minority business preferences go to black immigrants.
That well-off Jewish women are the primary beneficiaries of “women-owned” business preferences from starting their own, or realizing the advantages of placing family businesses in a woman’s name.
That people now arriving from Portugal and Spain are members of the “persecuted Hispanic population” and given preferences – but that people from the Philippines and Guam with Hispanic names and blood get no racial preferences because they are classified “Asian”. Both nationalities, coming from islands in the Pacific, along with of course the Japanese, Indonesia, Australia, NZ…are not classified “Pacific Islanders” because the liberal Jewish bureaucrats that formulated the reverse discrimination scheme at EEO back in 1973 for the Nixon Administration with no Congressional vote had different “type” of islanders in mind…amended later to give preference to New Guineans, Maori, and Oz Aborigines.
That the biggest victims of racial preferences and reverse discrimination in California are Asians. That in California, the Ruling Elite Educrats that blocked the referandum passed by the people fear “too many Asians” and have set it up so that top GPAs and top SATs from schools were excelling whites and Asians are count less than “class rank”, “character”, “SAT scores and GPAs reflective of overcoming poverty and adversity” (Meaning a class rank of 30 and an ultracompetitive college track school of 800 grads, with a GPA of 3.8 and SATs of 1500 if you are white or Asian does not get you into Berkeley. A class rank of 5th with 450 grads with a 3.4 GPA with SATs of 1100 almost guarantee a black or hispanic entrance into Berkeley – with disclosure of a family being on welfare or having a parent or sibling in prison actually counting as “bonus adversity points”)
I am mightily sick of it, and sickest of all from the realization that the liberal educrats and Ruling Elites are able to defy the Will of the People, even through legal and constitutional referandums. That it may be impossible to change this peacefully through democratic and legal process. It may take whites and Asians organizing and becoming violent to change what legitimate processes have failed to do because of the arrogant opposition of elites.
I actually with Chris Ford – I think there will be a race war before it is all over with in this country. I actually think it will happen in the next century or so.
Heather, no one will ever disrespect competence, and no one will ever respect incompetence. You get it? When it comes to equality, you are not going to find it in AA where race is concerned, not the way it happens in schools at least. The competent gets discrimintated against in favor of the incompetent on the basis of their race. La Shawn has posted evidence of this. I did myself in one of the threads below. None of this is perception, it’s not made up, it’s reality. What do you need to see to make you understand why rational people object to this? If you want a program that promotes equality, this is not the droid you’re looking for.
Tyrian -
It doesn’t matter if AA was never created at all and the policies never existed, there would still be some who would view blacks as incompetent ANYWAY so all one can do is shake the haters off and keep on living.
Heather–let me offer you a comfort. You worry that 50 years isn’t enough distance, but let me remind you, being accused of being racist is enough to end careers these days, something I doubt was true back in the day. Companies see it as in their best interests to portray themselves as inclusive of everyone. I happened to be at a board meeting once where an old white boss was planning a promotional campaign to attract donors. He instructed his white staff to make sure that “people of color” are included in the photos for the brochure. There was no AA involved, as this wasn’t about jobs or schools. He just wanted to make sure that the organization (a seminary, actually) was seen as welcoming for everyone. I don’t imagine this would have been a concern 50 years ago, do you?
DarkStar, just to fill you in, I oppose ALL forms of welfare. The ridiculously bloated farm bill is one of the worst things Mr. Bush has done.
Tiffany, there’s perception, and there’s reality. If you have a program, like with AA, that makes sure a particular idea=truth, then what is your grounds for complaint when people say that it’s true? Your reasoning is like the guy saying to his girlfriend that he may as well should be unfaithful, since she assumes he is anyway. If the person is incompetent, they should be ashamed and strive harder, not demand people expect less of them. If they’re competent, it won’t take long to find out. In the meantime, yeah, your advice is perfect: just keep going about your business.
Let me clarify: if the person is competent, Tiffany, your advice is perfect.
My comment got eaten but suffice it to say that:
Tyrian, I can see your point but I don’t agree with it. I still AA has some usefulness and think it should be revamped and revised. And I’m entitled to my opinion.
Tiffany, of course you’re entitled to an opinion. That’s not what’s up for debate. As for the rest, we’ll just have to disagree. It just seems to me that I keep seeing in insistence (not saying you’re doing this) on supporting something that’s wrong just because black people are involved in it or seen as a “beneficiary.”
Darkstar, don’t know if you are addressing everyone who’s opposed to AA, but for myself, as a Christian, as a person with a work ethic, as a person who has earned everything I have, I’ve never had love for sloths siphoning off tax dollars. I don’t go to work for their benefit. I’m not obliged to want to. I’m not obliged to respect such people. You don’t work, you don’t eat, and I couldn’t care less if you’re black. Something is not okay just because black people do it. My principles aren’t color based, my sense of morality and fair play isn’t color based. You got it? If yours is, that’s your happiness.
In a number of posts that I have read I have heard the oft repeated notion from various black posters that incompetent whites get promoted over highly competent blacks. I question whether many businesses these days would really indulge in sabotaging their bottom line purposely, but it is possible.
It made me start to wonder, though, how many whites feel they have been passed over for an incompetent white person, as well.
Then I wondered if black people who feel they have been passed over for a white person would have a clue that there were white people at the organization who felt that they, too, had been passed over for an incompetent white person.
For some reason, this strikes me as funny because I have seen it played out so often.
Jan brings up a good point. I don’t run a social club, but rather a for-profit corporation. I’m going to hire or promote the person that will help my bottom line the most. To do otherwise would be like burning money, an activity I always try to avoid.
I can’t afford to hire based upon some “good old boy” network, nor can I afford to exclude anyone just because they don’t look like me. The only qualifier is performance on the job and contribution to the profitability of the company. Period. This means that we are truly an equal opportunity employer.
“Can someone please explain to me why everyone hates race based preferences but not sex based preferences.”
Why do you make this assumption? Who is this ‘everybody’? Though I am sure there must be someone somewhere, there is not one person that I know who is against race based preferences and for sex based preferences.
“Also, why are the white people who have posted about how they view blacks comfortable remaining in their assumptions that if black people got where they got because of affirmative action, somehow they did not deserve it? What if they had the grades, qualifications etc.?”
Then they did not get there because of affirmative action. They would have ‘arrived’ regardless of whether AA existed or not. AA EXPLICITLY admits those with lower qualifications. In my book, that equals ‘did not deserve it’. However, that is not to say that these very same people could not have ‘arrived’ via other means without AA – for instance, going to a college where you DO meet the qualification standards. It is also not meant to imply that plenty wouldn’t qualify regardless.
“While I don’t want to see anyone discriminated against, my only fear is that if AA goes away, will companies also lose their “reason†to hire blacks? Or even women in some cases? There are times when a black person could be more qualified than someone white.”
There are plenty of black people more qualified (at whatever) than plenty of white people. While I understand your fear, I just don’t think in today’s climate it is legitimate. There will ALWAYS be some cases of discrimination (in all directions). But I just don’t see that happening on a large scale. Not today.
“Also, will companies and colleges start to feel reverse white guilt and start hiring white men more because they are sorry that white men were discriminated against because of AA?”
Does this mean you acknowledge that white men are being discriminated against?
“Again, if AA helped me get in because I was recognized as black is but I qualify, is that as bad as if I get in only because I am black but I don’t meet the standard.”
If it were possible for it to happen that way, no.
But, I’m sorry, but no matter how often you say it, that is just NOT how AA works. Not as it is applied today. Even if you don’t look elsewhere, LaShawn’s post is loaded with links that prove that, and you have offered no proof against it.
“I think that it is not honest (listen to the tone of some of the posts) to think that that after only @50 years of equal rights for all, we are really completely there.”
Heather, I may be wrong about this, so correct me if I am. It seems to me that any of us who disagree with you are who you are referring to when you write about the ‘tone of some of the posts’.
If so consider this. Is it possible for me to be adamantly opposed to AA because I truly believe it works the way all of those links LaShawn provided says it does? Because I truly believe it is discriminatory? Because I truly believe it harms blacks more than it helps them? Because I truly believe it harms more than it helps race relations in this country? Because I truly believe in the fundamental unfairness of being excluded based on race? Because I truly believe it does far more to promote that ‘he/she just got it ’cause of the color of his skin’ mentality that you hate?
If you believe this is possible, maybe you can see that it is NOT automatically a racist attitude to oppose AA. Again, I am talking about AA as it ACTUALLY works, not as some people would LIKE it to work.
In your opinion, does LaShawn oppose it for ‘legitimate’ reasons? Is it possible for a white woman to oppose it for legitimate reasons? A white man?
And of course we are not ‘completely there’. But that goes both ways. Can you define the conditions that would be in effect for us to be completely ‘there’?
“Wouldn’t it be more of a conservative cop-out since it seems to be a term tossed around mostly by conservatives and I doubt that many liberals would claim to have white guilt?”
Nope. It was a concept created by white liberal academics and is being taught in universities by liberal academics (leftist, really).
““Again, if AA helped me get in because I was recognized as black is but I qualify, is that as bad as if I get in only because I am black but I don’t meet the standard.â€
If it were possible for it to happen that way, no.
But, I’m sorry, but no matter how often you say it, that is just NOT how AA works. Not as it is applied today.”
Ignorant comment and respone to Heather. AA, as applied today, does not mean that every black/woman/hispanic admit is unqualified, and that what you’ve just said when you state above that admission of qualified blacks and AA are mutually exclusive. That’s exactly how the Rooney Rule and various forms of AA work–and the vast majority of university admits who are minorities (and women) fall within the admissions parameters of their respective universities, and, as such, are qualified.
It made me start to wonder, though, how many whites feel they have been passed over for an incompetent white person, as well.
Comment by jan — 02.01.07 @ 8:20 pm
—
I’ve seen this many, many times. Two of my bosses (one male, one female) were passed over in favor of a yes-person who had less than half the qualification of either. That’s just one example of many.
At U of M, which kicked off these series of posts, they practice AA exactly how everyone has been saying, tvd. It’s not a perception. It’s reality. The evidence is right there, see it for yourself.
U of M does not deny it. They said it to me themselves, and were upfront about it. Their practices do not support your case. Their admission standard is explicitly based on the black student being admitted on a lowered standard. A white person with the same low GPA, low SAT, low ACT as a black person is consistently rejected. A white person, like Gratz (who won her case in a court of law, i.e., she had evidence) who is qualified, can find themselves rejected in favor of a black person who is not. No, it is not a given that every black student is unqualified, it’s just that U of M makes a practice of admitting black students who are not. So, the honors student like myself who gets in will be assumed, reasonably, to have been admitted based on lowered standards. That’s life under the AA policy at colleges. There are trade-offs. If you want this policy, you have to trade-off respect and the presumption of competence, which is what Heather was wondering about.
BTW, when the black student admitted on a lowered standard from everyone else gets into U of M, they typically end up on academic probation, meaning they’re in danger of flunking out. Believe it or not, when schools require certain scores to get in, that’s not arbitrary. They do it because if you meet that score, it means you know what you need to in order to survive there. U of M is admitting these students and taking their money knowing full well how they fare when they get in. I think the term for that is “fleecing,” but as black people are the “beneficiaries” some people seem okay with it.
Darkstar:
I don’t know anybody who is against racial preferences, but for sex-based preferences. Everybody I know is either for both or against both.
I know a lot of people who tend to oppose welfare but support subsidies for farmers. Mostly, this is because they are stupid.
I’ve never heard of anyone other than farmers and politicians who approve of farmer subsidies.
TVD,
I REALLY like it if you’d quit referring to my comments as ignorant. It’s kinda ironic, really.
Oddly enough, I think my own “white guilt” was waylaid in college under the tutelage of an extremely liberal prehistoric civilizations professor who intended the opposite effect.
You see, her classes went like this:
The Aztecs were vile and bloodthirsty, but that’s the way their culture was… and we can’t judge them outside the context of their time.
The invading Spaniards were vile and bloodthirsty and furthermore corrupted by the Catholic Church (Inquisition Era)… and their behavior was unforgivable to the point where the 500th Aniversary of Columbus’ landing in the New World was virtually ignored in the US because Columbus was just too evil to commemorate (there should have been celebrations not unlike those of the Bi-Centennial commemmorating the official start of a major historic era!).
When I started figuring out that indigenous cultures were “innocent” and “excusable” because we can’t judge them outside the context of their cultures or times, and European explorers were inexcusably evil and… (insert your favorite Noam Chomsky quote here)… and COULD be judged outside the context of their cultures and times, I had the prof pegged. I answered her exam questions her way and got an A in her courses (unfortunately, I had few choices of profs in prehistoric civs courses… and yes, Meso-American cultures come under the category of “prehistoric” until the Spaniards’ arrival).
However, the lessons I carried away from her courses were far from what the prof expected me to learn. I learned about the double-standard, and that it was pure hokum. From her, I also learned to watch out for similar agenda from other profs.
“White guilt” gone.
And now, with commentaries like the ones I’ve seen here, I’ve further learned that lowered expectations are a form of racism in and of itself. Had I those classes to take over again in my present frame of mind, I’d give that white elitist prof some feedback on “racist attitude” that she would NOT appreciate! LOL!
>>I’ve never heard of anyone other than farmers and politicians who approve of farmer subsidies.>>
Not a farmer, but with farmer leaning tendencies. Not the subject of this blog either, but before you go knocking _all_ subsidies, learn a bit about agriculture. I don’t want to claim that there is absolutely nothing political about various subsidies (tobacco comes to mind) but farming is the source of food – which most people find a necessity! – and it’s a risky business. It’s not good to have a chancey food supply. You can’t just turn it on or off and have the land, equipment and expertise to supply it.
Basically, I disagree with you in that I can see that the government wants to assure that food isn’t in short supply, and does that by subsidies. I also agree with you in that any time the government hands out money, there are going to be people who get it who shouldn’t. That’s the nature of man, unfortunately. There are no perfect systems.
Yeah, you have a point and I am vaguely aware of the reasoning behind it…but like everything else government engages in, it just gets so bloated and distorted..
Did anyone ever think to include those who have Military records? Those people who serve in the US military seem to never have a problem getting a job. I don’t know if anyone has noticed this or not.
>>Did anyone ever think to include those who have Military records? Those people who serve in the US military seem to never have a problem getting a job. I don’t know if anyone has noticed this or not.>>
Could you place this in context? I’m not sure I understand what your point is.
Personally, I’d love to see some sort of a study on the effect of the military on national integration and the improvement of blacks over the last 40-50 years. The military is the only place in our society where people can be told “you _will_ behave in such and such a way” and there are consequences if you don’t. I wouldn’t say that there’s _no_ prejudice in the military, but it’s pretty minimal. Because of that lack of prejudice, blacks in the military are held to the same standard as whites, and ditto hispanics. “Just do the job” is the way it works. People in the military also learn to be on time(or even early), respect their superiors (as in rank, not as in value) and say “Sir” a lot,(which is a courtesy rather uncommon these days), and are expected to be answerable/responsible for their actions. All of which tend to make them more hireable than the average joe off the streets with the same or more qualifications.
Which tends to make me think that eliminating AA is definitely a good thing for everybody. Just do the job – whatever it is…digging ditches or getting good grades.
A few commenters have mentioned the military and racism. I am an air force brat. It is very easy for me to identify black military brats — they are completely non-race conscious. As the other commenters have noted, the military is all about merit. There isn’t racism in the military. There just isn’t. I was raised to judge a person by who he is, not by what he looks like. I think that’s how it is for almost everyone in that environment.
Contrast that to where I am now, in Memphis, where race is *the* issue. My friend Michael, whose father retired to Memphis when Michael was 14, says he didn’t experience bigotry until then. “In the army, all that mattered was that my dad was a lt colonel,” Michael says. “But in Memphis, the white kids didn’t like me because I was black and the other black kids thought I was too white.”
>>“But in Memphis, the white kids didn’t like me because I was black and the other black kids thought I was too white.â€>>
Interesting comment. One side judges on skin color, but doesn’t consider cultural behavior as relevant. The other group passes on the skin color (you belong) but effectively says “but you’re culturally unacceptable”. “You don’t act(sound?) like we do – therefore you don’t belong.”
Now…blacks want to be fully accepted by whites.
Skin color is not “allowed” be be a factor.
By their own behavior, it seems that cultural behavior _is_ an acceptable discriminating factor.
If a black adapts the white cultural standard, he’s rejected by the black group as a “whitey”. But isn’t that the goal? to get what “whitey” has?
How do we ever overcome this?
It seems to me that blacks expect whites to change their cultural behavior to that of blacks – isn’t that a bit presumptious? It says to me “I want to be equal to you, and I want you to make me equal by you becoming like me”.
I do come from an agricultural background. I can guarantee you that we would prefer that the government stay out of it and let the free market work for itself. I believe everyone would be better off that way. We of course, can thank past presidents for things like the wheat embargo etc. which did ultimately affect the farmer. Not to mention when gas prices were through the roof in the 70’s while interest rates were unbelievable. Top that off with the inheritance taxes that farmers pay on land they receive. Trust me, it caused many farmers to go on to different careers.
How many blacks here in CALIFORNIA voted for propisition 209 i,ll bet more then JESSIE JACKASS would want to say did
#134
Suek, I’m sorry but I don’t undertsand the logic of your argument/assumption.
“Now…blacks want to be fully accepted by whites.”
You make it sound as if ‘black people’ (as a group?) want to be accepted by ‘white people’ (as a group?) Where is this ‘truth’? What happened to the individual?
You then say: “if a black adapts the white cultural standard, he’s rejected by the black group as a “whiteyâ€. But isn’t that the goal? to get what “whitey†has?”
Isn’t that just a strawman underpinned by a glaring stereotype?
For instance, I’m a ‘white’ skinned person. What is my ‘cultural standard?’ My sister in law is of direct Nigerian descent, is she trying to ‘get what I have?’ and I haven’t noticed?
Likewise, when you say:
“It seems to me that blacks expect whites to change their cultural behavior to that of blacks”
Are you saying that all the ‘whites’ (me for instance) are expected by ‘blacks’ (Lashawn for instance) to become like ‘them’?
ARGH! There is NO WAY I’m becoming a woman, and certainly not a political pundit (no offense).
Sheesh.
Well, you know what they say about generalities!
Yes, I lumped all “blacks” and all “whites” together as groups. Yes, there are definitely exceptions and individuality. That said though, the question here is about “white” guilt. Doesn’t that also group all whites together?
And yes, I think blacks as a group want to be accepted by whites as a group. They just want to belong.
>>Isn’t that just a strawman underpinned by a glaring stereotype?>>
I don’t understand that statement. What I said was a generality which attempted to express what I see as blacks saying “you denied us our rights so that we don’t have what you have.”
The fact that their ancestors were once slaves is irrelevant. Would they be better off if they were still in Africa? None of them choose to go back(at least not permanently). In truth, if they hadn’t been shipped as slaves to the USA, they would have been sold as slaves to other places. The real problem is that in their native Africa, they needed certain skills to survive, and in a western culture they needed different skills, which they were entirely lacking. Even in slavery, there was discrimination between the “house blacks” and the “field blacks”…some learned the skills needed to succeed in the
As for you and your sister in law…your cultural standard isn’t determined by the color of your skin – and neither is hers. If you’re American born and raised, you probably attended school from the age of 6 to at least 18 – maybe longer. The culture in which you were raised and schooled determines your culture. Today’s US blacks could fit the culture in the same way if they would go with the program. Many don’t. They don’t because they somehow see “going with the program” as betraying their heritage.
Your SIL – again, I have no idea. She may be ignorant as dirt, or she may have been given educational opportunities roughly equivalent to yours. Probably the latter, but I don’t know.
>>Are you saying that all the ‘whites’ (me for instance) are expected by ‘blacks’ (Lashawn for instance) to become like ‘them’?>>
_Not_ Lashawn. _Not_ many blacks who make their own way with whatever opportunities life grants them. But those who whine about being “dissed”…yes. They want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want the benefits of white culture without making any changes in their own culture. They say “it’s just because we’re black” when in fact, it’s really because they’re living in a totally different culture of their own. If they’d accept the white culture, I think they’d find that the skin color wouldn’t matter near as much as they think. Do I know that as a fact? Do I have any references? no….just life experience and gut feeling. Take it or leave it, whatever you choose.
Well thanks for ecxplaining your exceptions and your generalities.
I’ll take my ‘gut feeling’ and forty years which tells me that certain ‘gut-feelings’ are all about generalities, no matter what colour the skin, I say such generalizing is the very attitude that pits us against each other as humans. ‘They’, ‘them’, ‘blacks’, ‘whites’.
Yuk. Sorry.
>> I say such generalizing is the very attitude that pits us against each other as humans. ‘They’, ‘them’, ‘blacks’, ‘whites’.
Yuk. Sorry. >>
Yes….well. Without generalization, all you have is anecdotal data, which also doesn’t carry much weight. Guess that leaves us with nothing to discuss!
White guilt? No, I never felt white guilt about what was done by predecessors or others. However I have encountered members of other races that wanted me to feel guilty and attempted to “play the race card” to gain an advantage as well as blatant and egregious acts of prejudice. When I called the individuals on their behavior, the response was that their behavior could not be prejudice or racist because “they weren’t members of the power majority group;” thus their behaviors were self-defense.
Eleanor;
I too have been hearing the notion that those not within a “power majority group” cannot be legitimately accused of racism. Hogwash!
There is a growing tendency in our country for words to be arbitrarily redefined to suit ideologies. If that is the case, then certainly, our understanding of racism certainly has as much creedence as another.
As for power….When one looks at the case in Long Beach, the 30 thugs involved certainly held an enormous amount of raw power over the three girls who were attacked. Simply because a minority group does not have the power to totally assert itself over the majority group does not mean that an individual who engages in race-based rhetoric or action against another does not have the power over another individual.
This notion that one can only be evaluated within the context of a group is hogwash, too.
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